Welcome to the Injury and Violence Prevention INdepth podcast. My name is Mighty Fine, and I'm the host of this Safe States Alliance production. And in this space we will engage in dialogue with IVP professionals on a variety of issues to help inform our listeners on the latest trends and hot topics, and all matters related to injury and violence prevention. This episode is sponsored by the Society for Public Health Education, also known as SOPHE. And that's S-O-P-H-E for those of you who
may not be as familiar. As a membership organization, SOPHE works with its members and partners to impact health through the skills and capacities of health education and health promotion. They are doing wonderful work and to learn more about that, I encourage you to visit www.sophe.org. Thanks again to SOPHE for sponsoring today's episode. I'm super excited because today we're diving into some key terms used when discussing diversity, equity, and inclusion and
related matters. And I think by breaking down these essential concepts, we're working to support our collective understanding of the terms and the concepts. So we communicate more effectively about these critical issues. And to help set the baseline understanding of these terms and concepts, I have the pleasure of discussing this with Jessica Ritter, and they are a certified nonprofit professional, who has been working to improve public health in Pennsylvania - in a state I
lived in. So shout out to Pennsylvania! As a Safe Kids Pennsylvania State Office Coordinator, Jessica works to foster strong collaborative relationships, coordinate resource development and distribution, and provide support and technical assistance to almost 20 groups across the Commonwealth that work to prevent unintentional childhood
injuries. They currently serve as the chair of the Safe States Alliance, Anti-Racism and Health Equity Working Group and strives to prioritize health equity throughout the work of Safe Kids, Pennsylvania. Remarkably, in 2024, Jessica has been recognized for making great strides in the discipline of injury violence prevention, as a Safe States Rising Star Award recipient, so kudos, and congratulations to you, Jessica, for such an honor.
Now, let's get started. Jessica - I'm so excited to have you here with us today on the podcast. And I think we're gonna have quite the fruitful conversation. And I know some of the conversation that you and I had previously, you shared a lot of definitions, right. And so I'm thinking to get us started today. Let's start by talking about and talking us through some important definitions. So I'll say a word and then you tell me what comes to mind from your perspective. How does that sound?
That sounds great. Thank you so much for having me today.
Absolutely. So let's start with stereotype. Tell us what what that is.
Yeah. So I think generally speaking, a stereotype can be defined as an exaggerated or distorted belief that attributes characteristics to members of a particular group that really oversimplifies things and it lumps them together, and refuses to acknowledge any difference among members of that group. So a stereotype could be like gay men are flamboyant, that women are emotional or over emotional, that black men are dangerous.
You can also have what are considered positive stereotypes like that Asians are smart, or that they're good at math. It can it still can and will cause harm. It's just that that harm can be harder to see when it's associated with a positive trait.
Ya know, for sure, and I often hear folks when they're trying to debunk stereotypes, they're like, look, these groups of people are not a monolith. They think differently. They have different perspectives, and they just show up in life differently in there shouldn't be an expectation that we all are all the same.
Absolutely.
Yeah. So thanks for breaking that down for us. What about prejudice?
So a prejudice is a judgment or an opinion or a belief that is formed on insufficient grounds before any facts are known or an active disregard of facts that contradicted? So this really easily builds on stereotypical ideas. But it is still a belief system that is inaccurate, but really actively causes harm.
Yeah, and I love the word of the you system, because we know this certainly happens interpersonally but we know it also feeds into systems of of disadvantage and disenfranchising disinterested men, tribesmen and so on. I'm glad that you call it out in that way, because it is a pool of beliefs right that are purported to be true.
Right. So then from prejudice, which we know are these harmful beliefs, then it builds on it to become discrimination. So discrimination is an act or a series of acts that are against a person or groups of people that are based on. Right.And so we move from the belief systems of stereotypes and prejudices into actual actions, which would be discrimination to start with.
Yes, yes.
Like you said, it works on multiple levels of society, it has, you know, individuals can be prejudiced against other people can discriminate against other people. But we also have obviously laws and policies that work at a system level that discriminate against large swaths of groups.
Yeah, you know, most almost bakes it in right when it's when it's embedded in a law. Yeah, so thank you so much for providing those definitions. I think they're a great grounding for the remainder of our conversation today. And you started to allude to it about laws and policies, but what are some other ways that these different topics that you've addressed play out?
Yeah. So all of those, those words can be applicable to any group of people, regardless of their identities. People can be prejudiced against rich people, we have stereotypes about white women, like with Karen, and all of that kind of stuff. There can be discrimination against men, especially around issues of like paternity leave, that sort of thing. There tends to be more negative stereotypes and prejudices against marginalized
groups or oppressed groups. And discrimination impacts marginalized groups more, but it's not impossible to have a member of a privileged group experience, a stereotype or discrimination. It will not harm them as much as it harms a marginalized individual or a group, but it is still possible.
Yeah. And I think that's an important piece to pull out the harm. Because I think sometimes people think of these terms as harmless, right? It's particularly if it's what you've been taught, or the environment that you're a part of, has codified these terms and make them seem real to you. And you don't recognize that stereotypes and the like, are things that we should work against changing and debunking.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. You mentioned a few words. So we're gonna keep going with this definition thing. And you said, privilege. You know, let's, let's talk a little bit about that. What, how do you see privilege showing up? And how do you define that?
Absolutely. Yeah, so privilege, I think should be understood as unearned cultural, legal, economic, political, social, institutional, like all of the "als" that we have. But that's been earned rights that are extended to a group based on their political on their social group membership, right? Or their identities. So individuals with privilege are considered to
be normative. And so it means that people who are without access to that privilege are, you know, invisible, they're deviant, dangerous, they're just wrong. Privileges are automatic. They are, as I said, they're unearned, they're automatic. It's not about hard work, or being lazy or anything like that. Often, individuals in the privileged group are unaware of the privileges, that their identity grants them unless they're specifically pointed
out. And then sometimes not even been, right sometimes.
Yeah
People will still be like, No, I just worked hard for this. i It's not a privilege. You know, that defensiveness leads people to believe that their privileges are not automatic. But that there must be something wrong with individuals in the other group that haven't achieved the same success or anything that they have.
Yeah, it's almost like debunking that is related to something you just said is like this myth of meritocracy. Yes. Like if you work hard, then all things will come to you recognize opportunity, equity,
The idea of like, oh, pull yourself up by your boots.
Yeah, yeah.
Which started as a myth. It was making fun of the idea that an individual could do that. It's literally an impossible feat. And now it's like a slogan and
which is wild I remember in one of my Women's Studies courses in undergrad is where I was first introduced to "unpacking the invisible knapsack" and learning about privilege and how it shows up and you're like, what? Sometimes you never think about it, you know, but I'm glad we're having this conversation today to help folks understand how it how it plays out. And related to privilege in some of the things you mentioned. It's oppression, right? Yes. So talk to us about that.
Yeah. So oppression is systemic, and pervasive nature, of social inequity, social, economic, political, right, all of those things that I've already mentioned. But it's an act of inequality and inequity that's woven throughout institutions through society, and then also embedded within individuals, just real simply to the opposite of privilege. It's unearned inequality that operates at all levels of society impacts marginalized groups in worse
ways. It does impact all groups, but impacts and causes active harm to marginalized groups more than privileged,
Thank you for that. And so thinking about oppression, right, and let's break it down a little bit more. And I know we have named specific types of oppression as "ism's". Sometimes there also "phobia's". So let's talk a little bit more about that.
Absolutely. When we talk about isms or phobias, we can understand the definition as this idea that assumes superiority of a privileged group over a marginalized group. And this gives the privileged group, the presumed right just the automatic right to dismiss and dominate the little obviously discriminate against abuse, hate, up to killing the oppressed group, the
marginalized group. So the really key bit, in my view, of understanding isms is that any ism -- racism, ableism, sexism, all of the things, it is a combination of prejudice, right, those beliefs, those misguided beliefs, plus discrimination, the actions that are based on those beliefs, plus power. So I feel like when we talk about issues of privilege, and oppression, and isms, a lot of people will leave out power, but power is the key to understanding any sort of ism in
society. When people say that there can be reverse racism or reverse sexism, it lets me know that they fundamentally do not understand what sexism and racism actually are. Right? Because they're ignoring the inherent power imbalance between privileged and oppressed groups. So the metaphor that I use in a lot of cases, it's not, obviously it's not 100% accurate. It's a metaphor, right? Like, this is not 100% accurate. And I'm gonna just throw that out at the beginning.
But I often will talk about a boss and employee relationship, right? And then employee goes to their boss, and says, Hey, you're fired. What happens is absolutely nothing. Because the employee does not have the power to do that. But if a boss comes to that same employee and says, Hey, you're fired, then the outcome is that employee no longer has a job?
Yeah, they're fired, right?
And so if we use that metaphor, and apply it to society, obviously, the boss is the privileged group, and the employee,
they hold the power,
because they hold the power, they can cause harm, in ways that are significantly more impactful to marginalized groups. And so I think that that, obviously, the metaphor is oversimplifying things, but I think it's a good place to start for people who don't quite grasp why power this such an inherent facet of the definition of any ism.
Yeah, I think the power piece is not talked about enough nor understood enough, because it's not even as if just using us just generalizing here that everybody even has access to that power, right, politically, right, because the systems dictate who the haves and the have nots for lack of a better classification.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that power piece is critically important to always add to this discussion. We're talking about prejudice, racism, discrimination, and in the like.
I think it's also important for us to talk about, there are so many different types of ism's, you know, based on any aspect of identities that people have obviously racism has been really uplifted, I think in national conversation since 2020. There's also classism, ableism, ageism, there's homophobia and transphobia, and a whole bunch
of subsections. Within those of heteronormativity, and cissexism and all of these, there's nationalism, there's so so many different forms of privileges and oppressions, just interwoven throughout society, because of how society was created.
Yes, and I think that's a important piece too, because in her work, Camara Jones often talks about when we have an a historical stance, it almost acts as if everything that's now is just by happenstance. But it's, but when we look back, and we see how policies were developed, and we understand what undergirds this, this miscarriage of justice and, and the imbalance in power, we understand how all of these isms
play out. And sometimes people take them as normal, like, No, this is not how things should be happening.
Right. exactly
I think it's important. And thank you for uplifting that, yes, we have had a spotlight on like racism and sexism and the like. But there are a host of other issues that fall under this equity umbrella, that don't often get that same attention.
Yeah, absolutely. So when we're talking about isms, you know, we've kind of been talking around the issue, that it's not interpersonal interaction, relationships, and individual consciousness, we can talk about systemic level issues, too. So it's not just someone being in the KKK, right. But it's also baked into the systems of because of the power, even if there were no racist people in different systems, those systems like education, or the justice system, or health care or any
other. Yes, any other large level system, it would still impact marginalized groups worse than privileged groups, because of the inherent nature of those systems. The systems in and of themselves are unjust, my friend, Emily from Oklahoma, shout out to Emily Nichols, she shared with me the idea of the groundwater approach.
Oh, yeah. Yes, that
It's from it's from the racial equity Institute, written by Baird Love and Deena Hayes Green. So I want to also give credit where credit's due, but they have created this approach that talks about how things are are working at a systemic level. So in this approach, they are saying, if you had a lake in front of your house, and there is a fish that is floating on top of water belly-up dead, it would make sense to analyze the fish to see like, what's wrong with that
specific fish? What caused it to die? And they compare this? Okay, so the fish pretend that the fish is a metaphor for a student that's failing a class. That makes sense. If there's one student to ask, Oh, well, did the student study hard enough? Is it getting the support that it needs at home, that kind of thing. But if you go back to the lake, if half of the fish are floating belly-up, then it's probably time to analyze the lake.
Absolutely
Right? And so then if you're looking at the education system, you would ask why are all these students
Or saying the fish has a problem, right failing? Or being failed? Then you would ask, right? Is the system itself causing these conditions? is like, is the system at fault for creating these unacceptable outcomes? And then how is it at fault? Then they go a step further, and say, Now, if there are five lakes around your house, and in each and every lake, the half of the fish are floating dead? What do
you do? At that point, you have to analyze the groundwater because those lakes are connected in ways that you can't see from on top of the ground. And so what we see is that, in so many different systems, the separate lakes, people with marginalized identities, are being harmed are having
unacceptable outcomes. And so at that point, you can actually see, and you can start to analyze how the systems are interconnected, and how we can use our positions in one system to impact structural issues in every system, because they are interwoven and interconnected. So instead of looking at a specific fish and trying to fix the fish,
Right, or saying the fish has a problem, or even just trying to clean up one lake at a time. It just won't work because all we're doing is putting a fixed fish back into toxic water or filtering a lake that's been re contaminated. It just, it doesn't work because of the intersection.
Yeah,
Yeah, that that environment, that system has to be assessed, not as related. But I often think about work that I've done in the built environment in chronic disease prevention. We work with medical providers, and they talk about the environment conspiring
against change, right? So they said, We have patients type two diabetes, we know if they have options for better food choices, and they're able to live in communities where they can walk and get physical activity, but they're like our patients live in food deserts. And they live in areas that don't have sidewalks and parks and green spaces. So it's like, are they really going to be able to institute that change without assessing and fixing or changing
the environment? So folks really have an opportunity to reach their highest potential.
So absolutely, yes.
And very well received. And then you also mentioned intersections, right, we talked about that. Let's talk about some intersectionality as it relates to what we've been discussing. Yes.
Yes. So intersectionality, is the idea that oppressions within society don't act independently of each other, that they are interrelated, and they create a system of oppression that reflects the intersection of multiple forms of discrimination and domination. So the ideas of this term of intersectionality, they were created and discussed by women of color that specifically they were created in discussed by black women
about black women. So the term itself was coined by Kimberly Crenshaw, who is still an activist and still doing amazing work.
Yes.
And then it was kind of brought back to life by Patricia Hill Collins, in order to specifically describe the legal experiences of black women. So in Kimberly Crenshaw's original article, she talks about, she was a lawyer, and she talks about how black women could not bring suits against companies for being discriminated against. If the companies had hired white women and hired black men. They could not bring suits, specifically saying you are discriminating against black women in these
specific ways. Because the justice system, the judges would say, No, they aren't discriminating. They have black men, they have white women, you're fine.
Case closed, right?
Exactly! And so it was specifically to talk about how the systems intersect based on people's identities, but intersect to further oppress them in really this so it was talking on a systemic level. Now, it has since evolved to talk about the individual experiences and crossovers of of privileged and oppressed identities and how all of our identities whether or not they're privileged or repressed function together and intersect together rather than how systems function against multiple
marginalized groups. I feel like both understandings absolutely have their places, I also think it's, it's important to recognize both of them not just the most recent iteration of it, but also, you know, that history that you were talking about recognizing the history of a term of our community and seeing how it has evolved, I think both have a place that it's relevant.
No, I absolutely agree. I think that understanding is critical to us really advancing and moving these issues forward. So thank you for that. And thanks for the folks who who have laid the groundwork for us even have this conversation today. And you to, Jessica, thank you for your work and what you're doing, and really helping to break down some terms that I think are thrown around a lot. But I don't know, I haven't been in spaces where people have really taken the time to like break it down.
So that we're all building a baseline understanding of these terms and how they apply to our work. And speaking of our work, this podcast is about injury and violence prevention, right? Some people might be listening like, Well, why are they talking about these issues and injury and violence prevention? So right, bring it home for us? You know, tell us why this is critical to discuss even in this space. But that elevates your point that it's systemic,
Yes, it has everything to do with injury and violence prevention, systems of oppression. It's like it's core to and so this is also kind of how I was taught when I started in public health role. I started within domestic violence, sexual assault, response and education.
And how I was taught is that it is central injustice is just the basis of all of these global public health problems, privileges and oppressions create the conditions that lead to violence and poverty and over incarceration and diseases and early deaths. Every bad outcome that we see within the field can be brought back to issues of
privilege and oppression. I also want to make note, I always, whenever I talked about this, I feel like the dad in My Big Fat Greek Wedding that always like brings everything back to Greece or the Greek language. But instead of I do it with privilege and oppression, like, Oh, give me any any sort of outcome, that's mad, I'll bring it back to it like... and it's baked into this system, right. So you see how that serves as a catalyst for for other issues of disadvantage?
Absolutely. So in public health, the way that we talk about isms, the language that we use for this is actually social determinants of health and health equity. So yeah, we have more definitions, and so
So break them down
I got it. So the CDC describes social determinants of health or SDOH, as non-medical factors that influence health outcomes. So they are describing the conditions in which people are born, where they grow, where they work, or live, how they age, that kind of thing. So breaking that down a little bit more, a person's social location, literally geographic, but also just the contexts of
their lives. If for, you know, when they go to school, where they're employed, or if they're able to be employed, they all of these things have real impacts on their health, their individual circumstances are actively shaped by what the CDC says by the distribution of money, of power, of resources at global, national and local levels. And the primary way to improve individual health is to improve the social determinants of health through social policy, public health services, other
evidence based programs. And you might, you might have noted that the distribution of money, power and resources, like the CDC says all are significantly impacted by systems of privilege and oppression within society. Because if we look through history, we can see actively how money power and resources have been, actively and knowingly redistributed to groups with social economic, political power, and taken away from
marginalized groups. This history is pervasive against every group from, you know, women to people of color to disabled people, like there is a history we have the stories of how that power and resource like all of that was taken away from them.
Yeah, it's like the the proverb or the term Sankofa. I know where I'm going, because I know where I've been. So we have to understand the history to know where we need to go and how do we correct some of those? Yes, yeah, issues that, again, have led us to where we are today, when it comes to inequities?
Absolutely. So the social determinants of health have been shown to have a greater influence on health outcomes, then genetic factors, or access to health care services. So like, poverty is really highly correlated with poor health outcomes and a higher risk of premature death. So social determinants of health, including the effects of centuries of racism, right, all of that history and stress are key drivers of health inequities within communities that are
marginalized. So wrapping it up, bringing it back to your original question. How is this relevant to the field of injury and violence prevention is that in my belief, this is just the core of our field, whether we're working on sexual violence prevention, or unintentional childhood injury, whether we're working at state health departments, or within a hospital setting or a nonprofit, we, as individuals did not
create these systems. But we absolutely have a responsibility to understand them and to address the harms of them where we can, because we're literally interacting with it every single day. Either we ourselves are, or we are helping other people who are.
Absolutely and I and again, just thank you for elevating this and bringing awareness to these issues, and really putting it in a way that hopefully folks in the fields can, can digest it. And we recognize that awareness certainly isn't important as we're doing today. And you know, I'm an action kind of person. Beyond awareness to action, what suggestions do you have for folks listening in today? What can they do internally? So thinking of self, and externally as well,
Yeah, you know, I just want to start, you know, you got to do the work, you have to unlearn everything. But you unlearn the prejudices and stereotypes that you might have been raised with you recognize discrimination and oppression at all levels of society. And how you do that is, you know, you start small, you can do things like follow multiple people or groups of people on social media, who inhabit different identities and lived experiences
from you. Right? So right, if you just follow one person, then you can fall real easily into that whole like stereotype thing. If you follow a multitude of people, then it can give you a broader understanding of
different experiences. But it can come down to really simple things like literally look at more pictures of people and bodies that aren't what the mainstream media presents, like fat, hairy people, gender non conforming people, trans people, older people, people who aren't wearing makeup, not the natural makeup look, right or the right not filters, literally not wearing makeup and normalize that for yourself. Find sources that present these people in a positive or even a neutral
light. I also want to encourage people to read things and watch things and follow people that don't only talk about the struggles of marginalized groups, right, like there's absolutely a place for that we need to understand the history. I think we've made that clear throughout our little conversation here.
Yeah, for sure. It makes me think I was gonna say, just wanted to give a shout out to my commercial art teacher, Judy Richards, if she's listening, because it made me think of what you what you said, brought me back to an experience I had as a teenager in high school, the white woman and I went to her house, and she had black art in her house, and she had black figurines, and I'm thinking I was so perplexed at the time, because it was so different than what I had seen
before. If I went into a white household, they had white depictions, you know, etc, etc, etc. And so to your point, and what she often said Is she surrounded herself with differences, different depictions of people and things, and just always had an appreciation for diversity early on, before I even had the language of the I are thinking about how equity or equity, or anyway, so anyway, yeah, pardon the interruption, but I just wanted to give her a shout out because exactly what you said,
and maybe think about how people can do the work, so to speak, and live their lives in a way that's authentically being authentically engaging in spaces and places and with people that don't look or identify in the same way that they do. So know that
Definitely don't apologize. I love that. Yeah, that brings me to my point of like, also learn the stories and appreciate the work of joy. Right. But these, these communities that have been historically and systemically marginalized, have stories of joy and perseverance and success. And people deserve to see positive and happy things about themselves and about other groups, and not just see on the news when another bad thing happens. Yeah, I think that that's also,
Yeah, it's shifting the narrative that you may have created in your head around how people show up and understanding that right? Again, folks are not the groups of folks are not a monolith. There's diversity in there, right, and recognizing that we need to engage in those spaces to understand the breadth and depth of who people are, right?
So like, I personally identify as queer. And so there is a lot of tragedy within that identity in so many different ways. But it's also well, I should say, my, my people on the Anti-Racism and Health Equity Workgroup of Safe States are going to call me out for that for the but because we have a group agreement where we do and, or, or and both and approach instead of either or. So let me rephrase,
Do a reset
So there's a lot of tragedy within that identity than the history and just all of the things within the identity of being queer, LGBTQ, and there is also perseverance and joy, and community and connection, right. And so it's really important to me as an individual to see stories that celebrate and uplift my community, while also holding space for the tragedy, and rightfully raging against the systems of oppression that caused those tragedies. So definitely a both
and approach. Yes. But it's something that we can be intentional about for sure. So other things beyond social media, right? Include things like reading books or articles. So you can think about, you know, gathering information from disabled people from low income people, trans people, neurodivergent people, the coming up with a list of recommendations is difficult because there are so many.
Mighty you already pointed out the the article that also I read when I was an undergrad, of unpacking the invisible knapsack by Peggy McIntosh. This is an article if people are not familiar, it's an article from 1989. And it is talking specifically about white privilege. And she lists out different ways that white privilege shows up. And it's notable, and it's a classic, because she was the first white person to actually like be talking about white privilege.
It had already been, you know, that thing that people knew about, and we're discussing, but she really brought it to the forefront, and in a way reminiscent of talking about sexism and male privilege. And so she brought forward white privilege, and it's like a checklist that you can go through, it's really informative, to say the least, for sure.
The fact that it was '89. It's talking, you know, it's still relevant,
Right? Still relevant and 24. Yeah, I also one of the I call it a classic, it's probably not a classic for many other people. But it's something that I have gone back to consistently within my work is a website called "White Supremacy Culture". It was an article from 1999. But it just talks about all of the different ways that white supremacy culture inhabits. Yeah, I think it habits is a fair word workplaces and expectations
around work. And so you can see kind of where this idea of white supremacy culture is infiltrating. And then it gives what it calls antidote to those expectations. And so I've, I've found that to be really useful as well. And I, mentally, will often be like, Oh, that's white supremacy culture. So literally anything else and Bechdel, you might realize that her name is the Bechdel Test, right? We do this in media and movies, anything by James Baldwin, Audra
Lorde. So so many amazing scholars and people to learn from that it is impossible to list them all here. Yes. But then I also think so the last two recommendations that I would give to people doing kind of internal work. It's more of a mindset than an actual like action. But it is a really hard mental shift. The first one is to understand that unlearning is a lifelong process, right? You're not just because of the society that we live in, you're not going to ever stop
unlearning. If you are committed to halting systems of oppression, you have to learn to be okay with being wrong with being corrected for it. Sometimes not in like the nicest ways, right? We're not going to be telling policing here, understanding that you're gonna make mistakes, because of how you were raised how you were taught in this society. It's
just, it's how we learn. You're not a terrible person for making a mistake, as long as you acknowledge the harm and then try to do better moving forward. Right? We're not also not doing Cancel Culture here. Like, people can change if they want.
Absolutely right, Maya Angelou said, when you know better you do?
Absolutely. But so the second mental shift is to not get stuck. So sometimes when we look at all of the isms, all of the intersections and the nature of oppression, and violence, and all of these things, it can be overwhelming, and it's exhausting, because it feels like there's no way to dig ourselves out of this hole. You know, alternatively, if you're coming from a privileged group, you can feel so overcome with guilt because of our privilege that we don't actually do
anything helpful. Right? This is especially true for white people like myself, it's not helpful to just be like guilty over an aspect of your identity that you cannot change. Right? That's not helpful to anyone. It's not helpful to yourself, except for to like, feel good about yourself, because you're feeling so bad that you're white person, like that doesn't make any sense. But it also doesn't actually help dismantle any of the systems to just be like, Woe is me. I'm so privileged and
feel so guilty about it. Like that's just not helpful. So not getting stuck, also requires this mental shift. And it's gonna be different depending on your identities. But yeah, not letting your stuff yourself get stuck in a hole of despair or guilt and moving from that into action.
Love that. And so we've talked about sort of the things that folks can do or we can do internally, what about external, give us a few ideas of how that can be activated? Yeah,
Yeah, support the groups that are doing the work that you want to see in society, there are groups out there that are already doing the thing, always. And that support doesn't always have to be money. Like, obviously, money is key. It's really important. But it also can be volunteering, if it's, especially if it's a local group to you, it can also be amplifying their message, sharing their posts on social media, recommending that a friend of yours also look into
the group maybe. But it can also be like a word of mouth support. If you don't have money, if you don't have time, there's always a way to otherwise support the groups that are doing the work. We also want to be able to educate others. So this can range from asking questions when people say something that might be questionable, like making a joke at the expense of a disabled person.
Calling it out? Yes. Oh, calling it out to educate. Yeah, so teach, teachable?
Exactly. And so you know, depending on the context of that, there have been times in the past where I've been in conversation with people who, you know, I want to maintain that relationship. And so I start from a place of curiosity, or I start from a place of like, oh, I actually read an article that said something different. What do you
think about that? Have you considered, you know, this aspect to the conversation, but then I've also, as I think many of us have been in conversation with people who are committed to misunderstanding me. And at that point, it can still be a time to educate others might not sound as nice as when you're trying to continue a relationship with someone. But the ultimate point, right is to take your privilege and use it for the benefit of
others. Can you look at your work policies and see if they are actually equitable and impacting people the same? Or the way that they need it to impact them? Can you look at funding processes of your place of work? How are the priorities set? Are you centering and involving the people who you're supposed to be serving, and actually hearing the things that they need from you, instead of arbitrarily deciding what they
need? You can look at where you are in in terms of systems and relationships, where you hold power, you know, are you a community member? Are you a coordinator, a grant advisor consumer, you can make small choices that add up to be a leader without necessarily being in a position of leadership, right? You don't need the high title to make change, it absolutely makes it easier going back to the discussion of power, right. But it is not impossible.
positionality matters. But you might also have certain levers that you can pull or conversations that you can start little seeds that you can plant that can be really impactful down the line, change is not going to happen overnight. Right. That's another mind shift that we have to make is that the way that people learn is through
repetition. And so we can, we might end up having the same conversation with someone five times and be like I have said this before, but it's important to keep having that conversation if you actually want that person to understand what you're saying. So some other things that we can do, obviously participate in politics, locally, to internationally, and everything in between. So this means staying informed, while also balancing the need to take
care of yourself. Because again, it's really easy to get stuck in the cesspit of the world is on fire, everything is burning. And this is the start of the apocalypse. But it also includes contacting your legislators, even though it can be scary, right? I'm a millennial, so I get it, picking up the phone and calling someone is terrifying. It's important, right?
Contacting your legislators for both things that you don't want them to do like things that you oppose, like don't vote for this bill as an individual, right, but also things that like you're supportive of do that to like, Oh, hey, I really like that you supported this bill or that you brought this bill forward. But you can also advocate for policies that support equity, justice, all of those things.
And again, both locally, statewide, nationwide, internationally, there are always things that we can do even as people who are not holding the positions of power and authority within politics. And then ultimately I always go
back to find your people. So this relates to the whole not getting stuck thing because if you do get stuck, you need somebody to be able to pull you out if you have your people, your community, your group, and this can be multiple groups to then you can all support each other a while back I read, there was a post on the internet. That's the citation there was a post on the internet that I saw that gave the metaphor of a choir. And I did choir, I did
music. When I was in high school, undergrad, I did voice lessons, I was in choirs, I did solos and all that. So like, my, my life has been very musically enriched. And so this particularly stuck with me, this metaphor of a choir, when you're doing social change work, it has to be sustained in the same way that a choir often will have to sustain a note. And the way that the choir does this, is that everyone is singing the note.
And occasionally, individuals will drop out in order to take a breath, and then start singing again. So that another person can drop out and take a breath before they start thinking again. And so it is a coordinated effort to hold sustain the note sustain the effort, while, individually, you can take breaks, right? The important part is coming back to sustain that note, so that other people can also take breaks so we can only achieve it, right? We cannot always do the work
ourselves. We will burn out. So fast, no matter what your position of privilege is, you will burn out you will burn yourself to a Chris.
Yeah, no, I think that's a perfect way to punctuate this conversation. I had another question I was going to ask, but I'm gonna leave it right there. Because I think that that's the point we have to work in harmony and unison and collaborate. But also recognize where we need to take a pause, take a beat, and then come back to the fold for the greater good of us all. So that's fantastic. Thank you for the wonderful conversation today. I thoroughly
enjoyed it. I'm like, oh, yeah, Jessica and I have more conversations to engage
Anytime!
We will be harmonizing. You know, I'm joining your choir.
Awesome! I love that.
Yes. But thank you again for today. It's been very enriching. And I'm certain that the folks listening in will find it the same way that I found it.
Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. This was really, really awesome
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