From the dark corners of the web. An emerging mindset, I am a loser if also women know wouldn't pay me either.
A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at a deadly tipping point.
In Cells will be added to the Terrorism Guide.
I see literally zero hope.
This is in Cells, a production of Kat's Studios and iHeartRadio Season one, episode four one shot at the market.
As much as eighty percent of them cells report thoughts of suicide.
I just hate myself. We all hate our self. Women our so materialistic, they always choose chads over nice guys like me.
I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at Kat's Studios. With Stephanie Leideker, Gabriel Castillo, Connor Powell, and Carolyn Miller. We've been talking about in Cells, and now it's time to hear directly from them. Three men generously offered to speak with the US, and it's important to hear their personal stories. Here's mister East, who is protecting his identity. The twenty three year old describes himself as a longtime lurker of Blackpill in cell spaces.
A lurker is a user of social media or online communities who consumes content without actively posting or commenting. The majority of us are lurkers. Here's mister East.
I used to lurk on the Forever Loan reddit and there was actually a lot of insults from that community in particular who like to just post on that subreddit. I think it's because a lot of them are they're pretty like socially isolated, lonely, and yeah, that's how I got more involved within like this particular sphere.
We asked mister East to tell us a little bit about his background. He's followed by producer Gabriel Castillo.
I am East Asian. I am of Chinese descent, so might be an issue, especially when I'm living in a city that's like majority white. The beauty standards here are also white. Here's the fact that I am neurodivergent. I am like high functioning autistic. It might not show like when I'm talking with people online, but when I'm in person, I am a bit more socially awkward.
What was your experience like growing up?
I was pretty much socially isolated throughout my childhood, so that doesn't really help either. If you're neurodivergent, obviously you're going to have a lot more trouble getting along with people socially, So that's a big factor and a lot of insult I noticed are neurodivergent to certain degrees, maybe not like enormously, but enough so that they act more socially awkward and they can sense that, and they might feel a bit more uncomfortable, or they might think that
you're weird and not just play into your success. Neurodivergency is like, this is like a huge spectrum, but generally patterns within neurodivergent people are more one way or the other. They're less likely to be more compromising as a result, be more easily radicalized.
Mysteries identifies as being black pilled, which in general is defined as holding a nihilistic worldview. But here's his personal perspective.
There's a lot of different definitions on how people see the black pill, with a lot of people with an insult community to see it as in terms of like dating context, if you don't have the looks, then you're finished. Basically you don't stand a chance. I see the blackpill more as like a spectrum. Basically, certain traits you have, such as looks, you know, wealth, they make it more
likely for you to succeed within a certain context. I think in the most part, black pill is more of like understanding and acceptance that some aspects of yourself are not able to be controlled by you, and these aspects of yourself may influence your success, and that by no means is any fault of your own.
Would you mind giving me the definition of a red pill blue pill as well?
Well, I mean for red pill. Honestly, I'm I've never been part of the like the so called red pill manosphere, so I can't really tell you what exactly they believe were what they think about. So what the blue pill refers to is the idea that of meritocracy. You know, if you improve yourself, you will succeed. There are some areas within the black pill community who are like misogynistic, mostly out of anger and like frustration of their failures
and like things that can't control. It also is largely motivated by, like the blue pill gas lighting that occurs within society at large. You just got to work hard, you just got to grind, You just got to like make money and like, you know, get bitches, so to speak. Despite what popular consensus believes it does, really heavily depend
on your looks and your ability to basically socialize. I mean, I am involuntarily celibate by the definition of the word, but I'm not as bothered by it as some people within the community are.
We asked mister East what he thought the information available online and in the media has done to the term in.
Cell, society at large, and in popular media in general. They've kind of twisted the term into like something that refers to someone who is misogynistic. And I feel like a lot of online like feminist types has furthered that to like any man I disagree with, and I think that in a long term is only going to play into polarizing men from women, furthering the gender divide. Also, I find it quite funny because in cell means involuntarily celibate,
which means you can't get sex, no bitches. So basically you're insulting someone for their sexual value and sexual experience. And for society that supposedly says, oh, you're not having sex, you're not sexually successful, that that's fine. You know, you're worrying about it too much. They very quickly used it as an insult.
When mysteries talks about misconceptions. He's pointing to something deeper. The term in cell has been distorted, often used as a catch all insult. He sees this as widening the divide between men and women in a world shape by unrealistic expectations.
There are actually a lot of mixed misconceptions in general. I think the popular media tends to lump together red pill, black pill, and just in cells all into one like group of in cells, which is basically just what they believe are like misogynistic and green lonely men who can't get a girlfriend will. While I think that's highly ingenuous, and there is certain aspects such as social media does cause like an unreal expectation in a way for a
potential romantic partners. So I think as this happens, more and more men might find themselves embroiled within this space. And I think society does need to do more to address these types of issues.
We asked mister East if you thought some men fell into in sell communities.
Society doesn't tell everyone just be nice, just be confident, you will succeed if you do all that. Obviously, for many people that might not work, so they might be confused, They might be like, why isn't this working? That's when they start searching online.
What a community is.
As marginalized as the black pills. I think it is more difficult for a lot of to really take in any outside messaging.
Have you found more good relationships or bad relationships within the community When.
You don't have any real life relationships and you instead spend all your times within these echo chambers that are just born from people's pain and anger and frustration, it does cause many people to become more and more radicalized, and basically online is like a replacement for real life loneliness. You will still feel lonely even if you are a part of these communities. But there's also like some that are like, you know, it's over. I just hate myself.
We all hate our self. Women are so materialistic they always choose chads over nice guys like me.
Mysteries talks about what he sees as made up social groups and what he calls the inceell versus normally conflict, enormous slang for a normal, ordinary person who appears to form romantic and sexual relationships easily.
There are studies that show that people will like human beings in general, will automatically form groups. If they aren't part of an already existing group, they will form artificial groups to make themselves feel included. I think in a way, what this current like in cell versus normy conflict is is that artificial groups are forming, whether you are an insult or whether you are a normy, And when these types of groups form, people are more likely to see
outside groups as a monolis. Basically, I think that's what contributes to like inceels seeing all normies as just bluepill brainwashed, and like normally seeing in cells as all just misogynistic terrors mass shooters.
Right.
And I've seen a lot of like in cell interviews online because they are also anonymous online, they're more bold.
If I were female conducting this interview, or if I was a female who was reaching out to all these people, would the reciprocation be very different.
Gender would probably play a certain factor, even if a lot of people wouldn't admit it, because subconsciously you're not only part of the normal out group, You're also part of the female, which is an how their group. So I think people might be more wary if you are female nor me.
What advice would you give to someone younger who is beginning to feel isolated or turning towards these spaces. Any advice that you'd like to.
Give, honestly, not really. I feel like it's kind of inevitable for a lot of people to run into these types of spaces, especially if they're socially isolated. In order for young people to not fall into this rabbit hole or like not to be as misogynistic as they may turn out to be, I think it's more society to change. And I do appreciate, like while you just like, you know,
trying to see the other side. I feel like a lot of people they kind of DEMONI as a community and like make it look bad and what it actually is, especially for like a lot of men who already already like see themselves like socially isolated, might feel more bad about themselves. And I feel it's important to get this side of the story as well.
M let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in a moment. We'll continue sharing interviews with two other self identifying in cells, but we wanted to step back for a moment for a broader perspect We spoke with doctor Lay, a clinical psychologist, sex therapist, and author of multiple books doctor Lay fills us in on some current statistics.
I would say we have a fair bit of data at this point about who the typical in cell is. The majority of them look to be in their mid twenties, males, heterosexual, typically childless. Of course, a majority of in cells in the US and the United Kingdom are white, but a substantial percentage of in cells, perhaps as many as forty percent,
identify as people of color. Research on in cells suggests that there may be between forty and a few hundred thousand kind of self identified in cells at any given time. It looks like there's around twenty five thousand active and participating in online in cell forums.
Based on loose math we did, which is consistent with the report out from the UK government, approximately one point six percent of men between the ages of eighteen and thirty identify as in cells. That's between one and two out of every one hundred men. In earlier episodes, we talked about violent cases, the absolute worst outcomes. These events happened, and the families of the victims are still living with the repercussions. However, it's important to remember that violence in
in cell communities is extremely rare. Doctor Lay walks us through some of the details.
When it comes to violence, though, it's really important to understand that while the in cell community is perceived as being extremely violent and their rhetoric is often violent and misogynistic, it is relatively rare, actually quite rare, for inzels to actually engage in violence. There have certainly been some horrific tragedies with violent acts by insel individuals, but to date, fewer than sixty people worldwide have died by inceell violence.
When you compare that to the violence related to terrorism, to ideological divides over religion, over white supremacy, et cetera, insel violence just doesn't measure up.
A lot of in cels are struggling. Rates of social anxiety and depression are especially high, and many report dealing with mental health challenges of all kinds. Doctor Lay breaks it down with some statistics.
Like all complicated human behaviors, these issues intermingle and interact in terms of cause and effect. It's important to know that there are extremely high levels of mental health struggles in the in cell community, very significant rates of depression and autism. Around thirty five to forty percent of in cells appear to have very serious depression. Around twenty to
forty percent may have autism or autistic symptoms. It's important to note only around one percent of the general population has autism, so this indicates a really significant kind of predisposing factor that we Obviously autism would precede identifying as an insel, but then as individuals with these mental health conditions interact in these online communities, it starts to reinforce some of these aspects and symptoms of mental health problems, oftentimes exacerbating them.
We want to be absolutely clear, we are in no way suggesting that having autism means someone is an insul. What we're doing is sharing information pointing out signs that may help identify when someone is at risk of struggling. With more on that, here's doctor lay Zidal.
Ideation appears to be extremely common in the in cell community. As much as eighty percent of in cells report thoughts of suicide. It appears these mental vulnerabilities and struggles not only precede their identification as an insul, but also impact their success in dating their confidence, anxiety, social ability to interact and seek out partners, et cetera. What's more interesting, though, is that these vulnerabilities increase the risk of men becoming
more ideological in the in cell community. And as they become more engaged in the in cell community, and they may experience what it's called identity fusion, where they take on the identity of this community as a significant part of their own identity. As that occurs with these mental predisposing vulnerabilities, they become more and more prone to engaging in or espousing violence. So we see all of these things interacting, feeding on each other in a dangerous kind of feedback loop.
Doctor Lay says the pull of the in cell community can become deeply personal, where loneliness and ideology blur outside the data, those struggles sound different when you hear them firsthand. Sven, a self identified inseel in his early forties, offers a more introspective view. It's a completely different perspective than anything we've previously encountered. He spoke with investigative journalist Connor Powell about his relationship history with women.
As far as romantic relationships go, I have had several, but they're very short lived. I was actually married in twenty twenty for a whopping three days. We're together, I guess for about a month. Got married, She disappeared after day three, never saw her again, got annulled, never had a divorce, And that was one of my longer relationships that They've been very few and very fast, like they appear and then disappear.
That's there common theme for how the relationships end.
I would say probably all different because someone else who I briefly dated, I found out the entire time that she was married. She was kind of leading me on, and I didn't see through that because she had children and I hung out with her and her children, and it never crossed my mind that she literally coached her children to lie to both her husband and to myself, and it just baffled my mind. But when I confronted her and after I found out she was married, she
admitted to it. There's a part of me that wants to be understanding and say, well, you know, there's something in her life, in her upbringing that led her to think that that kind of behavior is okay. But on the other hand, like, where does that leave me?
Explains what brought him into the black pill sphere?
This is where it gets frustrating. So I'm going to kind of build myself up and then insult myself but you know, I'm a six foot four, very athletic mail I've had points in my life when I've made lots of money. Objectively, I don't think I'm any kind of good looking, but I've consistently heard from people like, oh, you're so great looking genetically. I have literally never had a health problem, so on paper, I should be the perfect specimen.
And yet that has.
Brought me to a very solid acceptance of the fact that I know I'm going to dialogue because now I've gotten to the point of my life and this is where I step into. I guess that sort of a black pilled sphere is to say that I'm jaded enough that seeing how things have gone in the past, that I may even turn down opportunities if they presented themselves. But I still call myself an insult because the opportunities are not presenting themselves to turn down.
How would you just your lifestyle in terms of is it severely online?
Is it a little bit online?
Not that much, It's very rarely online. I kind of become kind of old man in that I've very much in a rhythm. You know, I go to work, do my time, come back, try to work out, eat, go to sleep. As far as connecting with people, I always kind of had. I don't know if it's the late twentieth century mindset of like you go to a bar, you could meet someone there, so on and so forth.
Ven reflects on what it actually means to identify as an insul and whether or not he sees the label itself as an insult.
I don't view it as derogatory, although this is probably very hypocritical of me. But one sort of term I've used even derogatorily myself is viewing someone as, say a shut in, i e. You try to avoid the world or don't get out, don't socialize. I would normally want to encourage you go out, talk to people, so on and so on. Then it ends up being kind of hypocritical because I do try to do that a lot. I try to be extremely social. I love social settings.
But you know, I had that mindset for a while with bars, like I wanted to go talk to women, see where things would go, but never actually had anything turn into more than just a little conversation. You mentioned about people living online is kind of killing it in a different way because people who maybe once used to go to bars to meet people are now strictly on tender. That's why you end up going to bars. And there's the three old guys in the corner.
One of the other recurring themes that you see.
And I actually think it seems to.
Be younger men, but there's a real anger and frustration with women, frustration that maybe turns the anger. Talk to a couple men who are sort of more in your age, you know, late thirties, early forties. They talk about loneliness, not anger, maybe frustration.
I would absolutely say a frustration.
And I have had feelings that you could call anger, but don't I don't sit with some kind of simmering disdain.
Did you have this mentality in your teens in early twenties or is this the belt.
The acceptance of basically like I'm going to dialan or I'm going to be alone for forever, so on so forth is more recent. You're constantly told that you know you'll find the right you know things will work out, you'll have your own family. But then when I've had basically twenty years of actively trying to do that, and I've had periods when I haven't and I've waited because you know, supposedly. Everyone also tells you it's when you stop looking that's when it will happen. First of all,
that's not how life works. If you want something, you have to work for it. You can't just say I want to be rich, let me sit back and wait for it. I've done both, like, I've tried very hard. I've done the dating sides. I've been social. I've worked out to the point, you know, probably beyond the purview of what you're wanting to touch on. But I you know, I have six back, But I don't really feel that it comes down to that. There's an aspect of luck, like I almost feel like I'm cursed.
As I've been talking to people about what the frustrations are, and you know, some of its heights, some of its baldness, some of its social awkwardness. There are themes, but there's also just this sort of feeling of hopelessness I guess in one's own situation, and everyone has a different situation. I mean, is that sort of.
Accurate baldness and so forth.
These don't resonate with me because they're not physical accuracies in my case, but the sense of hopelessness, at least as far as do I have any hope of anything in a romantic or I guess you know the term celibate relates specifically to the sexual connotations.
I have zero.
Hope for myself in either of those regards. So the sense of hopelessness, I would say, is very accurate. And so certainly when it comes to relationships and stuff, I use the term blackpill because I see literally zero hope, zero return on investment in any effort that goes into it. What are my options in twenty twenty five. Option A, try to go to a bar. Option B, try to open up some dating sites, start doing a little swiping
or whatever. Or Option C just say screw it, you know, instead of having any kind of hope for that which you know, in a perfect world, I would love it.
Perfect world I would have.
Been married twenty years ago and stuck with it. But you know, instead, I'm gonna come back from work, work out, play guitar, and go to sleep and get ready to go get exhausted at work again tomorrow.
Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in a moment. We spoke with another self identified in cel who wants to protect his identity. Per his request, he's going by New Cold Squid and we're altering his voice.
I'm New Cold Squid. I'm based in Australia, came from from a South Asian Muslim background. I've been identifying as black pilled for maybe five years now, since I turned twenty years old. I don't think I have any redeeming qualities to offset the negative effects, like I'm not tall enough to offset that but for race or personality or charm,
and I'm not facially attractive, and I'm not rich. It's very hard for me to still hope for anything when the social feedback that you get is still very, very negative from the start.
New Cold Squid first encountered the term in cell as a teenager, a common experience with many people we've spoken with. He highlights how the isolation of the pandemic contributed to where he is now.
I always kind of knew what in cell meant basically, and so I've known that since I was fourteen fifteen years old. I didn't really actively pick part in any online communities until maybe twenty twenty around cod when I was more stuck at home than usual and more online and trying to find spaces where I felt like more people could actually connect with my actual experiences. I've usually been a shorthand displaying radio game into watching movies and stuff.
But at one point it does get old and you start wanting some of that social connection. But you know that inability to get it is how I became intel identified.
He describes growing up in a household that highly valued academic excellence. That pressure, combined with feelings of isolation, shaped much of how he sees himself today.
Parental expectations are like super super high, and I'm okay academically, but I'm not special. So that mounted a lot of pressure, and there was a huge feeling of making a parents feel disappointed. So that that just added a lot to the worthlessness of it all. And yeah, it killed myself with even in terms of connecting to my parents, to family back home all that. But yeah, loneliness has definitely
been a part of it. Loneliness part is a huge, huge thing or social animals right still need some kind of connection. How does it feel if you could just drop dead any minute and nobody will even notice. That's the just how I really followed at my worst point of life.
Do you think five years ago you would have done an interview like this.
Back then, I wouldn't have been able to because I wasn't really aware of what is making me feel so dead, so miserable, Like why am I always feeling down? I was also in denial of why I feel that way because you know, initially I did not want to identify as insult because obviously because of the negative connotations the
label carries. So when I was in school and a lot of bullying happened, a lot of the bullying came from the girls as well, So to me it didn't really I didn't really have to ask them out to gauge if they liked me. They already made it clear how they see me, So for me, it kind of closed me on off into opening up a very very long time to anybody in general.
Do you feel like a lot of these communities. Is it a lot more positive than negative or is it a lot more negative than positive?
To be frank, it is probably negative. It is ever all miserable anyway, So it's negative, but it's our truth. Basically, I get a realistic but negative perspective than a toxic positive one just too. But that just makes me feel more miserable and not focus on other things.
Essentially, do you think you would have viewed these groups differently when you were twenty years old than how you view it now.
At twenty years old. I still hold on to those biases that you insult, probably violent, being misogynistic, or wanting to hurt people, kill them and shoot people up, stuff like that. So that is how I viewed the community at the time, as an actual ideology, so to speak. But now I don't think it's an ideology. It's just a state of being when you feel fundamentally inherently undesirable and you're kind of screwed. No matter what you do, you're going to be alone.
How do you define it in cel It just.
Means that you're inherently unable to attract a partner like you want one, but you are literally inherently unable to attract any partner no matter what you do, for both sex and both relationships. And I think that is the most fundamental definition of insul literally involuntarily celibate. I don't think having an ideology or having a certain hate has something to do with it. It's just a fundamental feeling of being undesirable to anybody. Someone like me, who's just
trying to lead an honest life. I just think I I deserve maybe in a shot, just one shot at the market. I don't think I've actively been looking for a very very long time, or probably ever. But it also starts up in smaller, subtle passive aggressive behavior.
We ask for an example of the subtle passive behaviors handcounters.
When I say good morning to some of my coworkers, they just ignore me. They would just act like I'm not even there. Or when I do something do some kind of favor for them, they don't say thank you again, not just they won't even acknowledge me. Or when I ask a work related question, they'll give an answer to somebody else in my proximity and expect me to gauge from what they're saying to them.
What are some big misconceptions people have had about the insul community.
The main big thing is that we are all just only miserable because we want the top most attractive women as partners. Most of us are very happy with just average. We just want to be in a relationship where we actually feel loved and appreciated. But the thing is just because we are ready to date a so called fire out of ten doesn't mean they want to date a fire out of ten guy. That's something a lot of people need to think about.
Do you have a piece of advice for younger people who are starting to feel very isolated and lonely and starting to look towards these forums.
One big advice I would give them is to spend as less time as you can on social media. In my opinion, social media is the worst non violent invention made by humanity. Everything I said here, it's based on my experiences. I hope it can be of some use, and I hope maybe the conversations will change and people will start to interact with us in a different rate.
We've heard from men who often feel unheard, stories marked by loneliness, rejection, and the need to belong. We've learned that empathy matters, compassion matters, and that real understanding cannot come from a place of judgment, but from listening. In the episodes ahead, we'll go deeper into the broader worlds of the manosphere, trolling culture, and a few corners we
hadn't even heard of. We'll also continue hearing from more self identified insuls, sharing their experiences in their own words. For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kt Underscore Studios. In Cells is produced by Stephanie Leideger, Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong. Additional producing by Connor Powell and Caroline Miller, editing by Jeff Toois, Music by Vanicourt Studios. In sells us a
production of Kat's Studios and iHeart Radio. For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.