I'm Rabbi Ami Hirsch of the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue in New York, and you're listening to In These Times. We are facing an identity crisis, especially since October 7th. The American Jewish community is watching distraught as the extremes grow louder and the center feels like it's shrinking and leaving us behind. Yet there are still many who champion our values. One of them is an exceptional, brilliant, young politician, Richie Torres.
I was profoundly shaken, not only by October 7th, but by the aftermath. I found it utterly horrifying to see fellow Americans openly cheering and celebrating the deadliest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust. Congressman Torres has been a supporter of Israel since before he was elected to represent New York's 15th Congressional District. But especially since Hamas terrorists invaded Israel, murdering and kidnapping over a thousand Israelis. His has been a resounding voice of moral clarity.
It takes considerable political courage. As evidenced by the deafening silence of so many others. The question is not why have I chosen to be outspoken. The question is why have others chosen to be silent amid the deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust. Music Congressman Torres, welcome to In These Times. It's an honor to be here. I wanted to ask you, I've heard you speak several times about your upbringing and how warmly and beautifully you speak about being raised by your mother.
I always think about that passage in Jewish tradition that describes how a very famous rabbi whenever he heard the footsteps of his mother, he would stop whatever he was doing. And when his students asked him, what are you doing, he said, I hear the footsteps of my mother and it is as if I hear the footsteps of the divine. Could you just explain to our listeners your upbringing and what shaped you into wanting to become a public figure?
Well, there's no one for whom I have greater, not only respect, but reverence, uh, than my mother. Um, you know, when I won my primary in June of 2020, when I knew I was on a trajectory to be a member of Congress. You know, I publicly said that before I was a congressman or a councilman, I'm first and foremost and will always be the son of my mother, Deborah Bacillet. I'm a product of the enormous sacrifices that she made so that I could have a fighting chance at the American dream.
I'm a product of the Bronx, which is the only home I've ever known. I spent almost all my life in poverty. Uh, raised by a single mother who had to raise three of us on minimum wage, which in the 1990s was 4. 25. So I tell people, imagine being a single mother in the most expensive city in America, raising three children on 4. 25. You know, it was mission impossible, but somehow my mother miraculously pulled it off.
The most formative experience of my life was growing up in public housing, which in New York is owned and operated by a family business. The New York City Housing Authority, commonly known as NYCHA. And if NYCHA were a city unto itself, it would be the largest city of low income black and brown Americans in the United States because it houses a population of a half a million people. And it's been so chronically underfunded that it has a capital need of 80 billion and counting.
So there were families like mine who were living in conditions of mold and mildew, leaks and lead. without consistent heating hot water in the winter. And I tell people that my life is something of a metaphor because I grew up right across the street from Trump golf course. And as the golf course was undergoing construction, I kid you not, it unleashed a skunk infestation. So I tell people I've been smelling the stench of Donald Trump long before he entered American politics.
As the golf course was undergoing construction, the city had invested more than a hundred million dollars to construct the golf course, ultimately named after Donald Trump. And I remember asking myself at the time, you know, what does it say about our society, about our priorities and values that we're willing to put more money into a golf course than into the homes of poor people of color in public housing. And so that realization inspired me to get my start as a housing organizer.
And then eventually at age 24, I took the leap of faith. I ran for public office. I had no deep pockets, no ties to the party machine. I was not a member of a powerful dynasty, but I spent a whole year doing nothing but knocking on doors. I went into people's homes. I heard their stories. And in a race of nine candidates, I won on the strength of door to door, face to face campaigning. I became the youngest elected official in the city of New York. Do you like being a public figure?
Do you like being a politician? Do you feel, do you feel satisfied and like you're doing something important? You know, I've often said that congressional life is like parenting. It's not always fun, but it's fulfilling on balance. And so even though Washington DC congressional life is full of frustrations. It is fulfilling in the long run because when you're a public servant, you can do an enormous amount of good for an enormous number of people.
Um, You know, I think the, the ancient Greeks defined happiness as the sum total of a life well lived. And I do feel like I'm living the good life or, or aiming to live the good life. And one of the characteristic things about you that is so impressive for, I think, for Many Americans, certainly in the Jewish community, is how deeply you take, uh, basic values and you seek to apply that in public life.
Is that a difficult thing to do when you're surrounded by hundreds of congresspeople and senators and, you know, you only have so much influence and you keep pushing and you keep pushing? Look at it. I mean, if we're not here to apply our values, then what are we here for? I think one of the great Jewish values is tekun olam. Whether you're Jewish or non Jewish, we should all be on a mission to repair what is broken in the world.
And if I'm not in public service to apply that most basic of principles, uh, then I feel like I have no business being here. A public servant, uh, you know, it's often said, I guess it's a Spider Man quote with, with great power comes great responsibility, but it's true. I think as a public servant who has enormous power, I also have a responsibility to do good in the world and to repair what is broken in the world.
You first traveled to Israel, I think, in 2015 with the JCRC, the Jewish Community Relations Council. And I think I've heard you say that it was a formative experience for you. Could you explain more about that? What did you see there? Did it change your life? Did it influence the direction of your life? It made me a Zionist.
I've often said that I'm an improbable friend of both the Jewish community and the Jewish state because there's nothing in my background that would have predicted my pro Israel advocacy. I grew up in a community that was almost exclusively Latino and African American. And by the time I reached the city council, I had no settled views on Israel or the Israeli Palestinian conflict. And then as you noted, I was invited by the Jewish Community Relations Council.
You hadn't really met too many Jews, uh, until you started pounding on doors. Is that right? Not, not even when I was knocking on doors, I mean, I did not. You know, from until recently, I've never represented a community that had a substantial Jewish population. Um, this year is the exception because I have Riverdale, but I grew up in areas in the Bronx that had no substantial Jewish community. So if you had asked me, what is Judaism? What is Zionism?
Uh, I would have been at a loss for words, embarrassingly so. I grew up sheltered in, in, in public housing in the Bronx, but when I was invited by JCRC to go to Israel. It was not only formative, it was transformative. You cannot go to Yad Vashem and Masada and not be transformed.
And my experience in the Gaza envelope in Sderot had a particular impact because I recall a conversation that I had with the local mayor who said that he has, you know, the majority of his children struggle with post traumatic stress. Because families like his live under the threat of relentless rocket fire. And, you know, I attempted to compare it to my own experience. I come from the Bronx, where families live in fear of gun violence, bullets.
But no one in the United States lives in fear of rockets. None of us worry that Mexico and Canada are going to fire rockets into American communities. And so I came to realize early on, That Israel faces a level of insecurity that has no analog in the American experience. And I tell people, before you rush to judge Israel, you should go to Israel. You know, what frustrates me is that the most vociferous critics of Israel often have never even gone there.
Do you remember where you were on October 7th and when you first heard the news about the Hamas attack? Uh, there are two places that I visit once a year. One is Israel, the other is Puerto Rico, and I was in Puerto Rico. I was actually awakened by a phone call from a friend who was crying hysterically, telling me that Israel had been the target of a terrorist attack that might have had.
And I think, I think at that point, we thought the casualty rate was in the hundreds, and it was ultimately well above a thousand. And I was in a state of shock. I had the same sense of shock that I had as a New Yorker on 9 11. I just could not believe that Hamas could so easily invade Israel and murder over a thousand Israelis. And so I remember feeling overwhelming sense of shock upon hearing the news. Even before October 7th, you've been a great defender of Israel and the Jewish community.
But in particular, after October 7th, you've been a giant, really, in American society and in the political system. What do you think is at stake in the aftermath of the October 7th attack? For me, the post October 7th moment is not only about Israel, and it's not only about the Jewish community. It's about the future of our country and civilization.
You know, if we as a society, if we cannot bring ourselves to condemn with moral clarity, the murder of children and civilians, the butchering of babies, then we have to ask ourselves, what are we becoming as a society? What does that reveal? About the depth of anti Semitism in the American soul. And so I worry that if, if this anti Semitism is left unchecked. That we are in danger of rotting from within, both as a country and as a civilization.
Why do you think people have such difficulty in calling out murder, mayhem, mass rape? Why do you think people have such difficulty in condemning that? Most people are good people, don't you think? Most people, you know, they innately know what's right and wrong. The one word answer to your question is fear. You know, I've often said that the greatest threat to liberal democracy, the greatest threat to the U. S. 's relationship. It is not the far left or the far right.
It's the cowardice of a center that lives in fear of the extremes. Franklin Roosevelt was exactly right when he said the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. And so there are decent people who are nonetheless too cowardly.
To speak out for what is right and there's a rational element There's no subject on which I face more hate harassment and death threats than on the subject of Israel My mother has been the target of harassment You know, someone said to her that she should have aborted me and that she's a genocide mother and I've lost friends I've strained personal relationships Because of my pro Israel advocacy. Frankly, I even lost the date. Uh, Someone said I don't go on dates with genocide enablers.
And so there are elected officials who, who say, you know, Richie, I agree with you, but it's not worth the cost. What — could you explain a little bit, what is the cost? You've paid a certain political price. Could you explain that a little bit in particular for people who are in your constituency in the upcoming elections? When, when you are as visibly and vocally pro-Israel as I am, you're going to be a polarizing figure in American politics.
You're going to attract more hate, harassment, and death threats. I'm frequently the target of protest and demonstrations. There may be no member of Congress who is more despised by the far left, uh, than I am. And even though my views are no different from those of other members of Congress, I attract disproportionate scrutiny partly because I'm particularly outspoken, but partly because of my identity, because I'm a Black, Latino, LGBTQ millennial.
And there's a narrative that people like me should be anti Israel. And by supporting Israel, I'm a traitor to my race. I'm a traitor to my sexuality. And so that's the kind of criticism and ostracism that I face both in my personal life and in my professional life. And is it constant? Is it a daily occurrence or a regular occurrence? En route to this interview, I was just harassed by a horde of protesters, so.
Listen, Congressman, all the more reasons from a Jewish perspective, from the American Jewish community, and frankly, so many millions of Americans of good faith. That we look to you as a role model and an example and an inspiration, a huge inspiration for us. I often quote, um, well, my favorite movie is, it's a violin movie, so I'm hesitant to say this to a rabbi, but among my favorite movies are, uh, Godfather one and Godfather two. So my, my favorite movies too. So we're in the same place.
And there's a quote from Hyman Roth who said, this is the life we've chosen. And I'll remind myself, this is the life I've chosen. I know what I signed up for, but I have enormous respect for the pro Israel advocates, for the Jewish students on college campuses who did not sign up to be public figures, but who nonetheless have risen to the occasion. When you talk about fear, people are fearful.
Do you include among other establishments or institutions, for example, what's going on in American universities and key administrators and, uh, heads of universities, what are they fearful? for why, why couldn't they simply condemn on a humanitarian basis what they saw on October 7th? I mean, I get the distinct impression that university administrators live in fear of their own faculty and students.
And the, the anti Israel elements among faculties and students tends to be the most visible and vocal, right? The squeaky wheel gets the oil. I mean, that's the dynamic that's unfolding on college campuses. I mean, there may be a few administrators who embrace. It's the anti Zionist ideology, but in most cases, I suspect it's fear at work. It's fear that creates a cycle of self censorship. And I want to be respectful. This is true in the Jewish community.
I have Jewish friends who maybe less so in the wake of October 7th, but who have censored themselves in progressive spaces for fear of excommunication. I mean, the, the, the fear is palpable. Hmm. All the more, you know, I, I, I always consider, I know there's a lot of cynicism about politics and politicians. And, I'm actually not cynical about the political world. It can be and often is a noble profession. It's about ideas and values.
But it does take somebody who actually believes deeply in principles to be able to withstand the kind of public scrutiny and public pressure, legitimate pressure. And I would say the same thing about a head of a university, for example, an establishment that is dedicated to values, to the pursuit of truth. I mean, if there's one institution that should be dedicated to the pursuit of truth, it should be the academy.
But you know, the academy historically has never quite lived up to its reputation. I mean, You know, you might recall that the most educated society in the early 20th century was Germany. And then Germany became the gravest perpetrator of crimes against humanity. So education, higher education is no guarantee of virtue. You know, that is such an important point. I, I find that to be the case too. And I also, I do think that, uh, most people have moral potential, but.
Like any other skill and talent, it needs to be activated. And so we need moral guides and moral discipline. And that to me is what is so disappointing with people who lead establishments that are devoted to moral values, because it not only undermines their own standing, it undermines the values of the institutions that they represent. That's what I believe in Congress as well. When public representatives fall below.
The threshold of common values, it undermines the integrity of the institution itself. I agree with you. You, you know, Lauren Summers the famous economist who's been admirably, outspoken against antisemitism, but he said something. That provoked a strong reaction for me. He said that, uh, that there's no place for morality and moral instruction in the academy.
And I think that view is profoundly wrong, that frankly, the principal task of higher education should be to instill the right moral values in its students. Could you tell us a little bit about the support that Israel receives in Congress? Is it still bipartisan and do you feel that the support in the Democratic Party is strong? So, look, there's a narrative. that the Democratic Party is monolithically anti Israel and the Republican Party is monolithically pro Israel.
And that narrative is more of a caricature than a fair characterization of what is happening in D. C. My view is that support for Israel remains bipartisan, but even though support for Israel is bipartisan, so too is opposition. We're seeing opposition to the U. S. Israel relationship not only from the Intersectionalists far left, but also from the isolationist far right.
I have long held that America first isolationism is no friend of the Usis Israel relationship, and so there's been an inability to pass aid to Israel because of the extremes on both sides. I grew up in a family that was very active in the Black Jewish Alliance and in the Civil Rights Movement during the 1960s. And there's a perception, there's an impression that we've lost some of that common glue, the common values that held this alliance together. Do you share that?
And how do you see the black Jewish alliance nowadays? Uh, I, I, I have a different view. I feel like the reality is more complicated than people make it out to be. So I'll make a few observations. You know, first I would submit to you that the older African American electorate is a moderating force in the Democratic Party to the benefit of the U. S. Israel relationship.
Were it not for older African American voters, Bernie Sanders rather than Joe Biden would have been the Democratic nominee and Bernie Sanders would have been fundamentally more hostile. toward the US Israel relationship. Second, if you look at a race like Ohio 11, you had a pro Israel candidate Chantel Brown versus Nina Turner, an anti Israel candidate. And Chantel Brown won on the strength of a black Jewish coalition, whereas Nina Turner's base was principally white progressives.
So there are facts that complicate the narrative of strain and black Jewish relations. What I have come to discover is that young people of every racial background, Blacks, Latinos, including young Jews, many young Jews, are increasingly skeptical and critical and even outright hostile toward Israel. And so I see it more as a generational phenomenon rather than as a racial phenomenon. Do you think that can be turned around?
Look, if I thought it were a lost cause, there would be no point in fighting. It's precisely. Because I think we can make a difference that I insist on fighting. We're in an election season. Now, the candidates are clear. The intensity will be ratcheted up as the weeks and months go by. How do you foresee the next eight, nine months in American life and in American politics? It's, it's going to be painful. I feel strongly that Donald Trump is an existential threat to our democracy.
He's a dangerous demagogue, but I do worry about the challenges confronting President Biden. You mean in the democratic party and in the American electorate's willingness to vote for him? I just think, you know, the president is facing a political perfect storm. First is the concern about his age, which is a problem he cannot solve. He's only going to get older, not younger. There's been the impact of inflation, and we've seen the highest level of inflation in more than four decades.
And even though it's not his fault, the president tends to be held responsible for whatever happens on his watch. And then the, you know, the complicated politics around Israel. Setting aside doing the right thing, no matter what position he takes, he's going to alienate one side. He's just, there's a perfect storm of challenges inspiring against president Biden.
I do think he can overcome it because Donald Trump is a fatally flawed candidate, but it's going to be a much more challenging presidential election than many of us had originally hoped for. I'd like to, uh, thank you on behalf of the Jewish community for all who you are. First of all, and the values you represent, and in particular the values that are important for the American Jewish community. You're a real hero for us.
I think you understand this because, uh, Unlike maybe when you were growing up, you've met a lot of Jews since you've, uh, entered Congress. I had a lot of catching up to do. And they must have shared with you as well, the fundamental attribute of the Jewish experience, which is a sense of, and a fear of being alone, loneliness. This persecuted nation. That is going to end up facing real hostility on their own. And that's often been the case in the Jewish experience.
And so, Congressman, whenever somebody like you stands up for what is right, and has an affinity for us, for our community, I can't explain to you how deeply moving it is. And so, it's true, nobody elected me to speak on behalf of the American Jewish community. You were elected. I was simply, uh, nominated by our board of trustees. But I do feel that in this case, I speak for all of us when I say to you how privileged and blessed we are to have you as a representative in Congress.
And we thank you for all that you are, and all that you do. And may you go from strength to strength. Thank you for those kind words. And please know that it's for me, it's not a burden. It's a blessing. Representative Richie Torres is a credit to America and the United States Congress. He affirms our aspirations that politics can be and often is a noble profession. As he said, a public servant can do an enormous amount of good. The converse is also the case.
Unprincipled public servants can do an enormous amount of harm. For these reasons, religious institutions, too, must be involved in the political process. To be clear, churches, synagogues, mosques, and other religious institutions are not political bodies and rabbis are not politicians. Our job is to remind politicians of our moral imperatives. We see the world from our religious obligations out, not from political calculations in. We are driven not by what is popular, but by what is right.
We are driven not by the words of pollsters, but by the words of God. Love the foreigner, defend the orphan and the widow, pursue peace and justice, love mercy, and walk humbly. Our synagogue does not endorse political candidates. We are not partisan. We do, however, endorse policies. Policies determine national character. Jews are duty bound to repair society. Representative Torres referred to this in describing the Jewish concept of tikkun olam.
All who call for church and synagogue to stay out of politics, by which they mean never speak about the social challenges of our times, never speak about the pain of this world, only about the bliss of the next world, condemn themselves to irrelevancy and even worse. They render religion itself impotent. What are they arguing? That we should lament the sufferings of the persecuted but not be involved in how our country can alleviate their suffering.
That we should establish a shelter offering beds to the homeless but ignore the policies that caused their homelessness in the first place. That one poor person is the business of religion but tens of thousands of poor people are not. That collective actions that might actually solve the moral indignity of poverty are outside our domain. Really? The assertion that religious institutions should stay out of politics is itself a political stance.
It takes you off the field, the public arena, where the contest of values will be determined, and leaves the field open to others who have different values than we do. Judaism is a religion of potency and protest, demanding of us. What have you done today? to promote human dignity, to alleviate humiliation, to ensure fairness, to diminish, if only a little, the human tendency towards arrogance. In Judaism, we speculate about the hereafter, but the here and now is our primary concern.
We do not seek escape from the secular world. We ensacred the secular. We sanctify daily life. We are obligated, we do not have a choice, to speak about and act upon the moral challenges of our times. What is so moving to me about Representative Torres, and so inspiring, is that he understands in the deepest parts of his being, that the hated cannot cure the hater. The other cannot purge fear of the other. The weak cannot confront the strong alone. , others must take up their cause.
The prisoner cannot free himself from prison, say the rabbis. The struggle against antisemitism is not for Jews alone. The fight against Islamophobia is not For Muslims alone, the fight against racism is not for minorities alone. The fight against economic inequality is not for the dispossessed alone, and the fight against misogyny is not for women alone. There is a fascinating debate in the Talmud on the nature of leadership. It is a mere two sentences long, but it is so profound.
According to one view, as the leader, so the generation. According to the other view, as the generation, so the leader. In other words, one opinion proposes that the character of a generation is determined by its leadership, from the top down. This view asserts that leaders have a critical impact on the character of a society. Our civilization will be good or bad, moral or immoral. Our policies will be decent or indecent as a result of the character of those who lead us.
The other opinion proposes the opposite. It is the character of a generation that produces its leadership from the bottom up. In other words, you get what you deserve. Good leaders are reflections of a good society. And bad leaders are the products of a society gone wrong. Who are we? What is the evidence of our generation? The Talmud characteristically never resolved the issue. It merely stated the two conflicting opinions. As the leader, so the generation. As the generation, so the leader.
We have no resolution. Perhaps this is the wisest course of all. Maybe both statements are true. That they are not contradictory at all, but complementary. Two sides of the same coin. Or perhaps the debate is unresolved because there is no definitive answer. It all depends on the character of the leader and the character of the generation. Or maybe, the real message of the Talmud is that it is in our power to determine the outcome. We all share in the responsibility.
We all share the burdens of the solutions. In this election season, It is important to remember that every political choice we make is fundamentally a moral choice. Every election is a contest for the soul of the nation. Ultimately, politics is about conscience and character. Vote for those who can inspire us to reach our highest potential. Vote for those who remind us to consider the good of others. Vote for those who seek justice, love, and mercy, and to walk humbly.
who encourage us to deal loyally and compassionately with each other. Vote for those who remind us of the stranger, the widow, the orphan, the suffering, and those left behind. Vote for those who seek to soften our hard hearts. Vote for those who lift us up, rather than tear us down. One final thought. The Jewish people eventually forgives our enemies. Forgiveness and reconciliation are central components of Judaism.
When peace finally arrives in the Middle East, and it will, we will learn to forgive those who sought to destroy us, and who inflicted upon us so much pain and sorrow. But Jews never forget. To this day, We mourn the destruction of the Israelite Kingdom and the Jerusalem Temple. It's been 2, 000 years, and yet, we still remember and mourn those terrible events as if they occurred yesterday.
Our people will remember this period, October 7th and its aftermath, for as long as there are Jews in the world. We will remember who stood with us, who defended us, and who sought justice and peace. And when this chapter of Jewish history is complete, the name of Congressman Ritchie Torres will feature prominently in the annals of Jewish civilization. A good and decent man, a man of courage and principle. Until next time, this is In These Times.