I'm Rabbi Ami Hirsch of the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue in New York and you're listening to In These Times. Watching Israel's war with Hamas unfold from his living room, Eylon Levy was surprised by the government's ineptitude in the international media, so he decided to volunteer his expertise. On day three of the war, I said, I have a background in media, so I'm going to do media.
I set up a pile of books in my living room, put the laptop on top, and I tweeted, I'm a former advisor to the president, and I give media interviews. Within a week, Eylon, who just that summer had been protesting the government in the streets of Tel Aviv, found himself working as an official spokesperson for the Prime Minister's office. In this podcast, he describes his time in government. While militarily, Israel is succeeding dramatically and turned around the colossal failures of October 7.
In the information war, Israel and her supporters in the Diaspora are struggling. Israel has simply abandoned the information battlefield. It's not fighting it. Now, again as a private citizen, Eylon is refusing to cede ground to Israel's enemies. That's why he started the Israeli Citizen Spokesperson's Office to make the case for Israel abroad. And to explain to Israelis why they need to take the information war seriously. Eylon, thank you for coming on today, and welcome to In These Times.
Hello,, Rav Ami, it's good to be here. met, but, uh, I've met you online and in various, uh, media outlets for a long, long time and admire your work. Thank you. We haven't had the pleasure, but we'll have to fix it. I'll be in Israel, uh, in a few months. Perfect. You'll have to come on my podcast as well. I will do for sure. So tell us about your own background. You are now a co founder of the Israeli Citizen Spokesperson's Office. That is a completely private initiative.
It's not connected to any formal establishment or governmental office. And that's after Working, I think, for about six months in the prime minister's office. So tell us, how did you get to the prime minister's office? What led to your departure from the prime minister's office and to your commitment to establish this completely private initiative? You want the long answer or the short answer?
Listen, I want our listeners to understand enough of what you've gone through so that they draw conclusions. So so make yourself a cup of tea and buckle up. Here's the story. Um, when this war started, I was a private citizen. I had previously worked as a TV news anchor. I worked with President Holtzog for the first two years of his presidency as foreign media advisor. But I was taking a break over the summer of 2023.
summer in which, like most of Tel Aviv, I participated regularly in the protests against the government. On Kaplan Street, in Tel Aviv, every Matzei Shabbos. And if you had told me when I was there holding up a protest sign that I would find myself within a year as a government spokesman and then a former government spokesman, I would have asked you, when are the elections happening?
It would have been because the protests were essentially anti government protests over the judicial reform, Over the judicial reform, over the presence of, uh, Ben Gurion Smodrich in the military, over what the ultra orthodox parties were doing to our country and its liberal character. Huge protests against this government. you consider yourself a liberal? Do you define yourself in those categories? Liberal means something a little bit different in the United States, but yeah, absolutely.
I see myself as part of liberal Israeli society. It would have been unthinkable. But then the unthinkable happened. We woke up at 6. 30 in the morning on October 7th to find that we had been invaded by terrorists, by death squads sent in to massacre and kidnap everyone they could find. And Israeli society kicked into action, and there was just a total mobilization of the home front, everyone doing whatever they could.
People were organizing civilian kitchens to make food for soldiers and driving down to take people to bases and help evacuated families. Everyone just wanted to help. And on day three of the war, I said, I have a background in media. So I'm going to do media. I set up a pile of books in my living room, put the laptop on top, uh, took a bottle of protein powder, barely been to the gym since the war started, put a lamp on top. And I a former advisor to the president. And I give media interviews.
I did that for day three, four, five of the war. And then on day five, I got a phone call from a well known publisher in Israel, Rotem Sela, who runs the Sela Meir publishing house, that recently published Netanyahu's autobiography. And he said, Eylon, the prime minister's office doesn't have a foreign media department. I'm setting one up. I'm building a team of civilian volunteers and we're going to give backup to the Prime Minister's office in dealing with foreign media.
Do you want to be involved? said, doing what? said, what can you do? I said, I've been giving interviews for the last two days from my living room. He said, do you want to do that from the Prime Minister's office? I said, Rotim, you know, I was at the protest against the Prime Minister last week. He said, I know. I don't care. I said, good. I know. I don't care either because we're in a fight for our lives now.
On the Friday after the war started, I went to the Curia and saw Ambassador Mark Regev, who had come back from retirement to give TV interviews. He was the ambassador to the UK. Ambassador is London and previously Netanyahu's spokesman. He said, Eylon, I'm so happy to see you. We're drowning in requests for interviews. I want you to watch a few of my interviews and from tomorrow you're on your own.
I said, in what capacity, he paused, put his finger and thumb on his chin and said, an Israeli government spokesman, let's go with that, that's your title, good luck. And so it was the following day that I went on TV in a suit and tie, never having met the Prime Minister, whom I still have not met.
Not having spoken to a single government minister, but speaking from the defense ministry in Tel Aviv with a sign behind me that said prime minister's office going on international television to make the case for Israel during this war, because we understood only three things matter. Hamas has to go down, the hostages have to go home and Hezbollah has to go away. Those three things remain absolutely true. And so without any process of due diligence or vetting, or proper briefing.
was part of the civilian mobilization that just put politics aside on October 7th and said, we don't have time right now for Jewish wars and infighting. We are under attack and we have to win this war because otherwise we're in deep, deep trouble. Uh, and that's the surreal story of how a former anti government protester. In a week, became a spokesman for the government. not how things should work in a normal country. It was the best and worst of Israel.
Okay, so you, you spend how many months doing that? Around five and a half. And did you decide, uh, you had enough or, uh, did others decide that for you? No, I got pushed out. I was forced to resign. Who pushed you out? I, uh, there's some rumors that the prime minister's wife pushed you out. The UK foreign secretary pushed you out or in, or lobbied for you to leave.
In, I think it was January, Israeli media reported that the prime minister's wife wanted to have me removed from my position because she discovered that I'd been protesting against the government before the war. I've never spoken to the prime minister's wife, but I have. put it diplomatically, no reason to think those reports were false. After I got back from the United States at the beginning of March, I was informed that I'd been suspended.
And the official reason was that the British Foreign Office had inquired why I was being critical of the Foreign Secretary, David Cameron, on Twitter. The Foreign Secretary had said that Israel needs to do more to let in aid. And I had replied that there are no capacity restrictions at the Israeli crossings, and if they send more trucks, we'll let them in. The British clearly didn't like a lowly government spokesman having the chutzpah to respond to the Foreign Secretary on Twitter.
but anyway, that was the, that was the excuse for which I was suspended. But then it became very clear to me that that really wasn't the full story because three weeks later, I still wasn't able to get a meeting with anyone at the Prime Minister's office to try to talk things over. Uh, officials in the Prime Minister's office started briefing against me to the media, and I saw on TV the headline that a decision had been made. To, uh, fire me. And so I was essentially left with no choice.
I was put in a position where they didn't want to fire me because it would have been extremely unpopular domestically. They couldn't bring me back. I was forced to resign and said that I was resigning a way that we would continue to fight this from civil society. And I'll say one thing actually about this experience that I haven't spoken about publicly before the way that the prime minister's office.
handled my departure in what was essentially a political hijab, okay, did immense damage to the state of Israel because the headlines that were generated led people to believe that I had been forced out because I must have lied. to the foreign secretary about humanitarian aid in Gaza. No official explanation was ever given. Israel didn't use the opportunity to reply to the British and say, thank you very much for the opportunity to clarify our position.
There are no restrictions on how much aid can go into Gaza. Him is how much has gone in. Here's how you can send more, you know, thank you for giving us an opportunity to clarify. We'll give him a slap on the wrist. Maybe he shouldn't be tweeting at world leaders, but nothing to see here. Let's move on. They hung me out to dry. And they hung me out to dry in a way that generated headlines that did damage to the state of Israel. Can I ask you about that, uh, humanitarian aid?
Yeah. It's still a matter of high controversy, uh, and every day we're hearing not only from, uh, media, but from government spokespeople that not enough aid is getting into Gaza. What's the real picture? At any given moment, there are hundreds of trucks worth of aid piling up at Kerem Shalom. After Israel has processed them, inspected them, let them into Gaza. But the UN hasn't been picking up. The problem has never been getting aid into Gaza. It's getting it around Gaza.
And that's because it's a war zone, and Hamas is hijacking aid, siphoning some for itself, and selling the rest on the black market. So why are they, why is Israel constantly being blamed for not providing enough aid? I mean, just look at the numbers. Over a million tons of aid have entered Gaza since Hamas started this war, on board over 53, 000 trucks. Israel has in fact added crossings since the beginning of the war.
Not only Kerem Shalom, but also New gates in the north, airdrops, and an access route by sea. Israel has repeatedly told allies, send as much aid as you want, we will let it in. But look who they're getting their information from. From all the NGOs have never really condemned Hamas. Never held it accountable. it's because they agree with the Palestinian narrative. And the Palestinian cause. And they themselves are part of this information war against Israel.
I must tell you, Eylona, it's a matter of deep frustration here in the West, uh, because, you know, the impression is Israelis are not letting in enough aid, and that's being extended then into an argument that they want to starve the population and so on and so forth. And what you're telling us, and you have direct information on this, what you're telling us is Israel is letting in as much aid as the international community wants to send in.
And, uh, And Yes, it is just so deeply frustrating to have the different impression going on in the West. but it's not getting shifted around inside Gaza. That's the problem. Okay? UNRWA is a Hamas front. It's allowed Hamas to steal aid, siphon it off, hasn't said anything about it. So Israel tried other ways. It tried to activate the Gazan private sector. Until it found out how much Hamas was stealing by taking commission from it.
There's talk now maybe of allowing in private military contractors to distribute the aid. Aid is rotting in the sun because the UN isn't picking it up and it's always easier to blame Israel than to take responsibility for not doing their job properly. Israel approved the UN bringing in dozens more trucks into Gaza. They didn't order the trucks. You to do the distribution inside Gaza. They're struggling to distribute the aid and they're blaming it on Israel instead.
Look, the fact we're talking about aid going in through Israel's crossings is itself absurd because Israel's obligations under international law are to facilitate the provision of aid by third parties as long as Hamas isn't hijacking it and it is hijacking it. Feeding Gaza is not Israel's responsibility. There is also a border crossing with Egypt, which decided to shut it.
And so it's incredibly frustrating that people will blame Israel rather than the terrorist organization that is hijacking aid, selling it at a premium to people inside Gaza. One of the big problems has been criminal gangs. Looting the trucks sometimes to get the cigarettes that have been smuggled inside them. By the way, I think the UN published a report a while ago explaining that one of the obstacles to delivering aid is the breakdown of law and order.
What that means, you know, between the lines, is that the Hamas regime is no longer providing protection that there is looting of trucks and an effective solution hasn't been found for that. So instead, as always, it's easier to scapegoat Israel. Uh, even though Israel lets in as much aid as the international community sends, if it gets to the crossings doesn't have contraband on it, let in. Let me ask you, um, what's, what's your general sense of the mood nowadays in Israel?
The mood is anxious in Israel. Israel is not a country that's built for long wars. And we've been in this crisis for a year now. a bit like COVID. Uh, everyone thought it would be over in a few weeks and it's become our reality. And what began as a. Hamas attack on Israel, the barbaric October 7th massacre, the taking of 250 hostages, become a regional war in which Israel is fighting for its life against the Iranian regime and its proxy armies on seven fronts.
People around the world don't realize that on any given day we can have incoming rocket attacks from four or five different directions. This morning, I jumped out of bed because of a Hezbollah missile attack on Tel Aviv that sent millions of people running into their shelters. We have drone attacks from the Houthis in Yemen. Every day, the security forces are thwarting terror attacks from the West Bank, Gaza. Of course, Hamas is still fighting and holding onto hostages.
Attacks from the Iranian militias in Syria, Iraq. And so what the Iranian regime is trying to do is, is wage a war of attrition that is trying to grind down the people in this country and make ordinary life here impossible because they're playing a very long game. Israeli society is strong, it's resilient, but, but there's also a sort of a steely weariness about still being stuck in this situation. On the other hand, a lot of strength and defiance.
because Israelis understand what's at stake in this war and that we really do have national interests and a strong sense of collective purpose. Uh, and that we really are fighting for something important, but, um, you know, of course the whole world wants this problem to go away. And so do we, but we understand that the problems won't go away until the threats go away and we don't want to have to deal with them. But, um, But we're having to do it.
So mindfully alone that prophecy is always risky, especially about the future. Do you have a sense, do you want to take a, uh, leap and give us your sense of what is likely to unfold over the next three, six, nine months? Look, Israel's achievements against the Iranian axis have been Uh, the Hamas terror regime is no longer an organized military. It doesn't have an ability to fire missiles at will at Israel.
We thought that by this point in the war, we'd have buildings falling down in Tel Aviv from Hezbollah in Lebanon, and it isn't happening as a result of decapitating their entire leadership, getting terrorists off the battlefield, targeting their facilities with incredible precision. Israel has significantly degraded terrorist threats on its borders. And the question now is what happens with that?
Okay, when Hamas and Hezbollah are on their knees, Is the world going to help them back up to their feet? is there an understanding that in order to preserve peace and prosperity in the Middle East, those Israeli military achievements need to be codified, permanent, otherwise we're going to end up in the same cycle. If Sinua's successor takes power in Gaza, Hezbollah is allowed to creep up back to Israel's northern border because UN peacekeepers continue to do nothing.
clock will only start ticking towards the next round. We are increasingly finding ourselves in direct collision with the Iranian regime, which is behind all these proxy armies surrounding Israel. And again, it's a question about how the rest of the world is going to act if the rest of the world is serious about containing Iranian aggression. we will see the Iranian empire continue to be rolled back.
If we see pressure on Israel to allow Hamas, Hezbollah and the Iranian regime to regroup, rearm and plot the next October 7th massacre, then we're going to be in a, in a negative trajectory. It's not just a question about how Israel is going to act, how its enemies are going to act. It's about how our allies, how the rest of the world is going to act, uh, and whether they're going to put pressure on Israel to return to the reality of October 6th.
take serious action to correct the mistakes that led to October 7th. And that, that's at most a 50 50 proposition. The international allies have never demonstrated the kind of commitment in collaboration with Israel that would prevent, for example, Hezbollah from returning to the border or Hamas reconstituting. Maybe the events of the last year have stiffened the spine of some of Israel's Western alliances. And by the way, disagree with me if, if you want.
But. You, you foresee a possibility, at least, that in the summer of 2025, we might be more or less in the same situation, this war of attrition, a hot war, ballistic missiles flying above Israel. Is that right? I certainly hope not. has an interest in bringing this war to a speedy conclusion, but not a speedy conclusion that starts the clock ticking to the next war.
It will want to continue destroying and degrading Hezbollah's infrastructure so that hopefully by next summer, either there is a peacekeeping force with teeth, that will keep Hezbollah away from the border, or it will have lost the ability to keep firing. And I think the defense minister said that Hezbollah is already down to about a third of its pre war missile stockpile, which is fantastic news. But there are new threats.
The threat of drones, for example, uh, something new in this war, sending people running into bomb shelters. Sometimes they crash through. Recently, we had the biggest mass casualty event. Since October 7th from a Hezbollah suicide drone from Lebanon. And Israel's enemies have an interest in keeping up a war of attrition, you know. One missile every morning that sends the whole country running into the bomb shelters.
global policy makers who want to bring us to genuine peace and prosperity need to take responsibility for how we got here in the first place. Israel is certainly learning lessons. that we cannot afford to allow monstrous terrorist armies to grow up on our borders and then hope that they can be deterred because when they can't you end up with the October 7th massacre and tens of thousands of people displaced. we're in this situation in Lebanon because the UN failed. The UN failed.
International diplomacy failed. The Security Council failed. The UK failed. The US failed. France failed. The organ responsible for overseeing UN peacekeepers sat by as those peacekeepers allowed Hezbollah to build military fortifications right next to UNIFIL positions. Why is Israel having to act so close to UNIFIL positions? Because that's where Hezbollah deliberately put its military infrastructure and they did nothing about it.
I think they need to take responsibility for that and understand that Israel is now basically cleaning up the world's mess. You think there's a chance they will take responsibility for this after this painful year? It'll be a year and a half by, uh, next summer that something will change. I mean, you know, the U. N. is not particularly friendly to Israel. The U. K. government, the place where you came from, is not particularly friendly to Israel.
No, I don't think it will change from a position of genuine introspection. If it does change, it will be from a recognition of the raw power dynamics on the ground. Namely, Israel has the upper hand in Lebanon, and if you want Israel's military offensive against Hezbollah to stop, well, then Israel has certain demands, as Morag Gravid reported in Axios, on the terms on which the war.
Is to end, you know, leaders obviously have an interest in appealing to international diplomacy and international security architecture, and then passing the buck off to the next leader. But we're still going to be here. So Israel is in a position to insist that Unifil have a stronger mandate, more enforcement mechanisms, and hope that that will be taken seriously within Lebanon as well, that they will be fed up with their country having been turned into an Iranian forward base.
And we're hearing some of those voices in Lebanon and with Hezbollah seriously degraded, know, there's a chance that they may, may act to take their country back. Hmm. You've been interacting with Western media now since October 7th. Do you want to characterize the level of your frustration? The international media can be extremely frustrating. sometimes we will often see coverage where nothing Israel does. Is ever right journalists who will spin whatever Israel does against it, right?
And the famous interview with Kay Burley from November last year, where she asked me whether the fact that we were willing to release three prisoners for every one hostage meant we attach less value to Palestinian lives that went viral in Israel and around the world because it resonated with people who feel that sometimes it doesn't matter what we do or what we say, the world will always be against us.
I'm actually not from the people who we should just be complaining about the media all the time and saying it's not fair. I think Israel has to take a share of the blame and the responsibility, which is that, um, Israel has simply abandoned the information battlefield. It's not fighting it. This is a complaint that I've been hearing for decades. First of all, is it true? I mean, you seem to suggest that there's some significant truth in that. And why is that the case?
I mean, you know, we like to talk. We're a very talkative people. We're very rational people. We like to communicate. Why is, uh, I don't even know if we call it Hasbara anymore. I don't know what we call it, but I've been hearing these complaints for decades. Look, if you're asking me about this government, it's not like everything else is functioning and this is the only public service that isn't working. It's part of a basket of misplaced national priorities.
But my, my question to you is maybe, maybe you disagree with this, but I've been hearing about the lack of what used to be called Hasbara information for decades now. So if it's true, there seems to be something structural in the framework of Israel's relationship with, uh, the international media or with the international community that deprioritizes this part of the, It's a national defense effort on the part of the Israeli government or the Israeli people.
Israel had a public diplomacy ministry and it shut down a week into the war because there was a war, not despite the war, because there was a war. They decided this is something that we don't need. It's a travesty. I think Israelis have come used to thinking Uh, the whole world hates us. They're all anti Semites. It doesn't matter what we say. There's no point even trying to win this battle because we're outnumbered and there are 130 Muslims for every one Jew in the world.
So what's the point in even trying to fight this battle? And I think it's a terrible mistake. The impression that I took from my six months or so in the prime minister's office was that when you talk, there is a receptive ear. And people are willing to listen and you can't expect people to be more pro Israel than the information they're getting and you can't expect the information they're getting to be pro Israel if Israel isn't providing it.
So when you back to back interviews and, uh, and treat it as an information war and be there and go on the offensive and provide timely information and do proper crisis management, you can make a difference. if you decide we're not even going to fight this battle you're not going to. at the beginning of this war, Israel put together this, you know, response out of nothing deal with international media. But since then, it's all unraveled. part of what I'm doing, I wear two hats now.
In English, making the case for Israel around the world. In Hebrew, I make the case for the world. I try to convince Israelis why it is important to take this seriously. And that we still have friends, we still have allies. But they don't understand why we're not speaking up for ourselves. Can you, in a nutshell, tell us why you think it's so important to do?
And after all, you said there's a, at least a strong argument on the part of people who have authority and influence in the Israeli decision making process that it's not important. Why do you think it is important? What's at stake? Thank you. This is why the information war is critical. Israel's enemies want to destroy us. They think it will be easier to destroy us if they convince the world that Israel deserves to be destroyed.
So you have a big campaign accusing Israel of genocide, apartheid, starvation, being a white settler, supremacist, fascist, blah, blah, blah, blah, committing every war crime under the sun, in order to convince good, ordinary people. In the US, the UK, Germany, that Israel is as bad as Nazi Germany. don't negotiate with Nazi Germany. You don't fly to Nazi Germany. You don't do business with Nazi Germany. Nazis are meant to be destroyed.
And anyone who supports the Nazis should be jailed or purged from society. That is what they are trying to do. want to ensure that the next time they attack Israel, whether it's suicide bombings or drones or ballistic missiles, Our allies will stand back and say the Jews had it coming. They deserved it because their country didn't deserve to exist in the first place. So why should we step in to save them? Why should we help defend them from ballistic missile attacks?
Why should we even sell them weapons? They want to attack israel and to attack israel. They want to leave it defenseless That's why the information war matters for israel It's difficult enough to fight a war on seven fronts without fighting against the whole world at the same time We are a small country We are outnumbered. We are vastly out resourced. We need the material, moral and diplomatic support of our allies in order to fight for our existence.
But I'll say something else about why the information war matters and why we have set up the Israeli citizen spokesperson's office to continue this fight from civil society. It's not just about Israel having the weapons and the support that it needs to fight against enemies on seven fronts. Where it's really existential. Because antisemitism throughout history, with the exception of the Nazis, gave the Jews an out. There was a conditional acceptance.
you convert, if you say this catechism will accept you, turn your backs on your people. There is a movement now around the world that is going to Jews and saying we have nothing against Jews. We have something against Israel. if you keep your heads down, or even better, join us and attack Israel, we'll accept your Jewish institutions and schools and synagogues. Just be against Israel. And it puts Jewish societies and communities in a trap.
And I know that you've spoken so powerfully about how the reform community in the United States is experiencing it. And you've come under a lot of attack, particularly from young Jewish radicals on that issue, who take that trap, who take that conditional get out. And we think that in order to fight against anti Semitism, in order to fight against the movement that is trying to squeeze Jews out of society in the West, need to tackle ad rut.
the increasingly deranged lies that are fueling that antisemitism. We want to empower diaspora Jews through the content that we produce at the citizen spokesperson's office stand up for Israel and shut down the lies of thinking that the way they need to deal with this pressure is to turn their backs on Israel, because it's going to continue chasing them and they won't be left safe. So how do you think we're doing in this information war, both before October 7th, but especially since October 7th?
We've regressed. At the beginning of this war, Israel built some international media response, okay? Together with Ambassador Mark Bregev, Tal Heinrich, Avi Hyman, the other spokespeople of the PMO. did about a thousand TV interviews in the space of the first six months of the war. Peter Lerner and Jonathan Conricus did another thousand from the IDF. None of that exists anymore. And it's a crying shame, because the lies against Israel are going unchallenged in the media.
What I say here on Israeli TV. Is how is it possible that every day a spokesperson for UNRWA or UNICEF goes on the BBC, CNN to talk about The situation in Gaza from their perspective, and no one from Israel is picking up the phone and saying, we demand a right of response. We also want to be interviewed. There is strategic territory that we're abandoning, unfortunately. the fight is being led by individuals within civil society who are simply taking up the mantle themselves.
Here at the citizen spokesperson's office. we're trying to coordinate interviews all around the world on the night of the ballistic missile attack from Iran. We placed 30 interviews in the global media. But also from other private citizens.
And, and really within Israel, the only functioning element of the information apparatus the IDF Spokesperson's Unit, which, you know, for various bits of criticism that I'll have is actually doing a very good job fighting a war that no other army has to do because no other war is so intensely scrutinized that they're required to account for the velocity of every single bullet and the million different events happening on seven different fronts. It's happening from the IDF.
It's not happening from the rest of official Israel. So, my question for you, Eylon, is, uh, you, you mentioned, uh, two dramatic interests that Israel has in terms of, uh, waging this information war. One is public opinion in the West that affects policies of our allies. And secondly, on Western Jews, of course, the biggest population is American Jews. And you said we've regressed. Just have you noted a regression?
In those achievements, in the, in the solidity of the support of Israel's international allies, as well as Western and American Jews, as a result of the regression of the information war. Well, of course our allies support has regressed since very early on in the war.
Israel has been continuing to fight by withstanding immense pressure from allies who said not to go into Rafah, turn the other cheek to attacks coming from Hezbollah and wrap this up with some sort of diplomatic accord that would leave Hezbollah in place. Israel has had to resist that pressure in order to continue fighting. that, we've seen an incredible, what I call the great diaspora awakening.
of October 7th Jews. Those who weren't especially connected to Israel before the war, all were and have redoubled their efforts who suddenly received, um, punch in the gut and I'm sure that from your own pulpit you've seen people wearing Magin Davids who didn't before, lighting Shabbos candles who didn't before, maybe even putting up a mezuzah who hadn't before.
I think there's an increasing understanding in the diaspora about is happening, why it matters and why they need to speak up and use their voices as well. intensify, especially what is happening on campuses, The temptation to go all in with, with the big bad wolf, those who are offering the conditional acceptance becomes greater and greater. if Israel isn't telling its story and setting the record straight, it becomes more difficult for people to oppose that.
One of the most insidious things about the modern antisemitism is the gaslighting. the attempt to make people doubt their own sanity, their own humanity, their own decency, they're doing a very good job about that. But, um, you know, maybe this is a question that I'll ask you when you come on State of a Nation here in Tel Aviv. How, how you're seeing that from your own end, whether you're seeing people intensifying their commitments to Israel, or being squeezed out by that pressure.
So, so you've got a bit of time to think of an answer now. I'll give you a heads up, we're seeing both as you yourself indicated, but I'll be happy to talk about that further. Excited to talk to you about it. Two quick questions before you have to go. You studied both at Oxford and Cambridge. You're British. Have you been back to Oxbridge? And how do you assess the atmosphere on campus?
Not since the beginning of the war, the situation on campus is extremely problematic, this is the formative experience of people who are going to be in five years, Senior advisor to politicians in 10, members of parliament in 15, and, you know, the prime minister in 20 years. Um, and Israel is being up axiomatically as being on the wrong side, as being an oppressor, as something that you can't even open up a discussion about it.
And everywhere I go around the world, I make a point of speaking to students to understand what's happening and how they're fighting back against this to try to set the record straight. And it's so critical that they use their voices.
I visited Harvard just a few weeks ago, and the inimitable Dara Horne, Author of People Love Dead Jews, the excellent point that sometimes People are just waiting for someone to speak up and use their voice and that person may be you you don't know Who in that room secretly agrees with you and is just waiting for someone say it that speaks the importance of Jewish students using their voices to speak up for Israel and Jewish communities So that that Israel
doesn't get As this evil genocidal regime that the lies that are being told about Israel don't become the baseline of people's common knowledge about Israel. But we clearly have a problem of deep intellectual rot in elite institutions. I think it's partly to do with the fact that Israel just doesn't fit into.
Anyone's mental models or paradigms and so they try to shoehorn it into the narrative They have about the world about oppressor oppress and they put israel on the wrong side of that And i'm glad that we're seeing real pressure against them in the u. s The wave of title six lawsuits against universities Donors who are pulling their funding, it's not enough.
We need jewish students to be building on campus and explaining how the pro palestinian movement is disruptive, harmful, advocating for forces that go against the most deeply held values of the mainstream student society, and not let the bullies on campus rule the schoolyard, essentially.
In some of your, um, debates and polemics in the media and on television, you debated with a man named Mehdi Hassan, who I think the exposure was many millions of people who saw that on YouTube and various other platforms. How was that experience and what did you learn from that? It was about as pleasant as root canal surgery without an anesthetic, but sometimes a surgical intervention is necessary. Look, I really didn't want to do this debate. I almost had to be bullied into it.
And what convinced me to do it was that I've spent the best part of the last year telling Jewish students, you are not just Gen Z. You aren't Gen Zionist. Being a Zionist means standing up to the bullies. And when I had an opportunity to take on a bully, I said, if I don't take this opportunity, if I chicken out of it, I can't look myself in the mirror. I wanted to put on record the case for Israel's conduct in this war that's been forced on us.
But more importantly, to inspire students to stand up and say, if guys my age can fight Hamas, they Terrorists on the battlefield in Gaza, and I can face Hamas' leading propagandist on the debate stage in New York. You can take on the Hamas FALs on your campus. You've got this. This is on you. This is on us. It's on the young generation. Um, it, it was unpleasant because, because he's a bully, because his approach to debating is to challenge your character, your integrity. Call me a sociopath.
He wrote a book on how to win a debate, right? in the book, I didn't, I didn't read it. I mean, I had to win nearly every argument because, because Douglas Murray and Natasha Hausdorff tore him to pieces, uh, but it, but it's based on not actually engaging with the difficult questions.
And I hope that people who listen carefully to the debate, he will, you know, gish, gallop and throw out a million accusations more than you can possibly respond to, but never actually engages with the core of the question. Okay. You say that, uh, 7th doesn't justify Israel's actions. Okay. What does October 7th justify? What would you have had us do?
And if his response is, well, all you could have done is gone in and arrest Sinwar, then it shows that he just doesn't have any serious answers and doesn't want to engage. I mean, motion itself was problematic, okay? Even before we talk about the audience and the moderator. I wanted to have a debate about whether Hamas should surrender. I wanted to have a debate about whether we should defund UNRWA. I don't know whether he vetoed the motions or OpenToDebate vetoed the motions.
This was the motion there was, but it meant that it was asymmetric. Because I had something I had to defend, he had nothing he had to defend. He could at any point say, well, you know, Hamas shouldn't have done that. as if it was, you know, a mistake. They had a bad day. But didn't have to provide any It's a very productive, constructive feedback on what Israel should have done given that situation. He could simply appeal emotions and throw a lot of mud around.
but again, I, I ended that debate with a feeling of a slight missed opportunity I had several zingers and arguments that I wanted to make and didn't quite land. But I really hope if there's one thing that the debate achieved, it's to inspire Jewish students.
To stand up and be counted and say even if they're going to shame you on social media I mean, you just you know search for the debate on youtube and most of them are people making videos saying, you know Mehdi hassan humiliates or rips apart or whatever. I come and get me. There's nothing you can say I care about it. And if I can help jewish students develop the same skin, um, Dayenu, I've done my job. So my last question to you, and it's related to your answer just now.
Do you have a message for American Jews? Our messages are the messages we put out through the Israeli Citizen Spokesperson's Office. We are building this non profit in order to support you. In order to empower you, because we know there are so many of you. want to speak up for Israel and feel you don't have the information, you don't have the words. So we're producing content that we hope will give you the words and information and the soundbites to feel empowered to speak up.
the connection between Israel and the diaspora is so important between the Jewish diaspora and the Jewish state. The enemy is trying to divide and rule us. When people play this game of saying, you know, there's Israel and there are Jews and they're different and don't conflate them. Maybe some of them think they're being nice and good, but what they're saying is there are good Jews and there are bad Jews. Good Jews keep their heads down or protest Israel.
Bad Jews are the ones who speak up for their cousins and neighbors who are under attack on seven fronts. And there is a lot of pressure on people to simply take the out and keep their heads down. And we're saying, no, you have to be bad Jews, quote, unquote. You have to speak up for your brothers and sisters who are under attack. Because real lives are at stake. And because we cannot allow our enemies to pick us off by dividing and ruling us.
And if you want to fight against antisemitism, I'm sorry, it's not enough to organize another protest against hate. You need to tackle the lies that are fueling. the hatred of Israel, and then fueling the hatred of anyone who is associated with Israel. You cannot allow the lies that are being told about Israel to go unchecked, to go unchallenged, and hope that it will pass you over just because you're in the diaspora.
So we hope that this vehicle that we're building will be useful in empowering Diaspora Jews to find their own voices and please follow us on all social media platforms. And we're open to all and any unsolicited advice and feedback on on how we can make this more useful for you. Well, with that happy note, I want to thank you, Eylon Levy, for giving us this time, but for your immense efforts and talents on behalf of the Jewish people. Thank you very much.
As we are in the midst of an intense, anxious electoral season, when passions are so high and the stakes seem so dramatic to us. In speaking with Eylon. and absorbing his interaction with Israeli politicians, I was reminded of the basic reality that Israeli society, the Israeli people, are so much better than their government and political representatives. It's hard for me to pinpoint why.
Perhaps it is the electoral system that, for many reasons, inclines towards electing mediocre representatives. Perhaps, partially at least. It is in the nature of politics and politicians. I often feel that in America, too, the people are better than their representatives. Either way, it's frustrating to me. There is a fascinating and profound debate in the Talmud on the nature of political leadership. It is only two sentences long. According to one view, as the leader, so the generation.
According to the other view, as the generation. So the leader. In other words, one opinion proposes that the character of a generation is determined by its leadership from the top down. This view asserts that leaders have a critical impact on the character of a society. Our civilization will be good or bad, moral or immoral, our policies will be decent or indecent. In large part, as a result of the character and policies of those who lead us. The other opinion proposes the opposite.
It is the character of a generation that produces its leadership from the bottom up. In other words, you will get what you deserve. Good leaders are reflections of a good and decent society, and bad leaders are the products of a society gone wrong. For years now, but especially since October 7, 2023, I have felt strongly that Israel deserves better than its political representatives. The Israeli people are amazing.
So many simply dropped everything on October 7th and volunteered any resource expertise or skill available to them towards the collective war effort. In the past year there are reservists who have served dozens and even hundreds of days in the IDF, leaving their families and businesses to defend the country. Countless civilians devote much of their day, every day, to help in any way they can. This is what Alone Levy did.
In the middle of a war described by many as existential, while the government continued down its narrow, cutthroat political ways, bless them, they can't help themselves, Eylon decided that if the Prime Minister, or his wife, or who knows who, wanted him out, he would simply do what he does best as a volunteer. And what an impact he made and continues to make. I resonate with what he told us. You never know who is listening to you.
And who is waiting for you to voice your views that gives others courage and confidence. You never know how your words impact on others. I've had that happen to me many times. People who approach me sometimes years later and recall in vivid detail something I said which I long ago forgot. I've spent a lot of time with politicians. I am not skeptical or cynical about the political vocation. Politics can be, and often is, a noble profession.
It's about ideas, values, service, and collective responsibility. But at all times, we must remember that first and foremost, politics is about the pursuit, acquisition, and exercise of power. Politicians can spend a lifetime seeking power, and when they have it, they are loathe to give it up. They develop a keen awareness, almost a sixth sense of threats to their position. In the maelstrom of the political struggle, the human interaction in politics is fiercer.
Innate human passions are stirred much more deeply. The fights are more ferocious, even if they conform outwardly to proper democratic standards. There is an acceptable way to stick the knife in someone or ruin their professional lives. Even if done in a genteel fashion, it's still a form of combat. It's still the impulse to devastate and destroy the other guy, although it's better than the physical violence that characterized so much of human history.
The successful leaders in democracies are the ones who master the political process. They fight better. They're more aggressive, more able to withstand human combat in democratic form, and often even have a zeal for it. Their passions are more intense, but they learn to master them better. The successful ones are the ones who are smarter and more driven. They have, in Shakespeare's words, vaulting ambition, which overleaps itself and falls on the other.
Jewish tradition emphasizes, Gadol ha ish, gadol ha yetzir. The greater is the person, the greater his impulse for power, domination, fame, adulation. But let us remember, especially during this election cycle in America, that in the end, great political leadership is about the capacity to inspire, to awaken the better angels of our nature. Exceptional political leaders inspire us to rise above our own self interests and consider the interests of others.
Time after time, history demonstrates that the people will follow true leaders. We follow them on the battlefield. We follow them in the political arena. We follow them in the boardroom, the classroom, the operating room. We follow them because of the way they make us feel. They make us feel better about ourselves. They give us hope. They instill confidence. They remind us of who we can be, what we can be. And how we can be. Their motto is always, After me.
Even if it puts me in harm's way, I am first. Follow me. And we do. We follow these leaders voluntarily. Willingly, we cede them authority because we trust them. We want to be better. We do not want to live preoccupied and absorbed only with our needs. We want to make a difference. To count for something. We want leaders to lift us up from the numbing drudgery of daily life, and to awaken us to our fullest possibilities. We want leaders who can make us better.
We want leaders who can help us recapture our prior enthusiasm for good and our youthful confidence in ourselves and in others. As the generation, so the leader. As the leader, so the generation. Who are we? Until next time, this is In These Times.