Bonus Update | Chapter 7, Season 2

Listener discretion is advised. Hey everyone, Sean Kuype here. This bonus episode of In the Red Clay is not going to sound like what you're used to hearing in this podcast. It's really just Stoney Burt and myself chatting and catching you all up on what's happened since the last episode of season two. Since then, Stoney has learned some interesting information about his father's alleged role in the Durham family homicides in Boone, North Carolina back in 1972.

I recommend you start by re-listening to Season 2 for this all to make sense, and I'll pop in from time to time to help clarify where needed. As always, thanks for listening. I'm Sean Kipe. From Imperative Entertainment, this is In the Red Clay. So I wanted to take an opportunity to kind of give the listeners and the fans of In the Red Clay in this entire two seasons of the series, people that have followed along.

very closely with not only your story and your father's story in season one, with the Durham murders in North Carolina in season two, but also your distillery.

And in season one, when I met you, you were building this distillery and really just trying to get it launched and get it off the ground, you and your son Stone. And at the end of that season, it was... kind of perfect timing because it had officially opened and and did really well you had a lot of success with that season two and sort of the time in between those two seasons things

changed. And we discussed in season two, you know, you having legal troubles and big altercation with the building owners at the distillery. And so things have changed now and you've moved on. And I don't think a lot of the audience knows about that. So tell me where we are right now and how this building that we're in even came to be. Here's what we are showing.

When I said I'm moving on a minute, the distillery has took so much out of our quality of our lives, not to mention money. My son has been having to operate heavy equipment, which he loves doing. that's the only thing you can do make decent enough money to put yourself out of a hole that we have got ourselves into so the distillery is over i've informed my lawyer to

Negotiate a deal to walk away. Give me all back, everything in there that's mine. Forgive and forget and move on. I won't be burning down no houses. I won't be threatened to burning down houses, contrary to popular belief. I want my life back. So the stillery is over and it seems that just a turd this morning they feel the same way. Sure they do. They get that damn building back after now that it's viable.

And I'm not going to waste any more time worrying about it. It's called spilt milk. And I was taught to clean up spilt milk and move on because you can do nothing about spilt milk. Right. So where are we now, though? Right now, I'm here at Sugar Hill Distillery. And this owner made me an offer. Son, until you get your stuff straight, you have the keys to my place because I don't make whiskey here.

much i'm more into beer make your product get it on the shelves say your stuff yeah and this place is is awesome i mean i to me i loved the

The distillery that you built with stone had so much charm and character, and it had a connection to your father because he robbed that building a couple times in the 70s. And that was... obviously and understandably special to you guys but this place is more what i think people would expect it's got the restaurant and it's it's nice and clean and you know we're sitting back here in the in the with the stills and you got all these big shiny

steel uh stills back here and it's just kind of more a professional operation um and it's been good because i mean since you moved here a couple months ago eight months ago people

uh you know we did and we did a uh official launch that's another thing that's changed is rock solid is no more true what is it now red clay should have been red clay to start with Rock Solid was just there. You know, I wrote my first, I didn't write my first book. I put together my first pile of stories that me and my father and my son talked about every week.

Call it rock solid because we considered him rock solid gangster to rise. He stayed solid. Okay. That's where rock solid come from. Letter. And George's Dixie Mafia because there's a mafia everywhere you go. But George's Dixie Mafia is unique. It was the first, and it is the original, and in my opinion, it's most interesting because, let's face it, 15 years of... good run is pretty damn impressive for corn, what do they call them? Cornbread, rednecks. Cornbread, rednecks. Whatever.

Pretty good run for them boys to keep rubbing two nickels together in my quarter. And I was just fortunate enough, and I call it fortunate. I still do. To be a kid raised in that without picking up the side effects of... Harming anyone or taking what ain't mine? I don't count them.

armed robberies and stuff I've done trying to be my daddy. They were businesses insured like I was trained. Always do it from a business with insurers. Don't never get them, man. You see what I'm saying. That's a really good quote. I don't count the Arnold Roberts. But Red Clay now is the official brand of whiskey. It's been rebranded. Same whiskey, same recipe that your family's used for...

Since Civil War, we don't know no other, but it's it's red clay. You can't make them up. Yeah. And the idea now is to and you're working on getting this in liquor stores and in bars.

and distributed that's that's the plan right we just got an order for 1 000 bottles of whiskey and two thousand thousand bottles each of the brandy so yeah i say and i've been that's why i stayed here six months without telling anyone I've been busted my butt, you know. It takes a hell of a lot to process peaches and apples. Ferment them, distill them over and over. You have to live it, breathe it like a golf game. You got to think about it when you're home. Think about where you're sleeping.

Nothing. It takes your life over. So since we last seen each other, except for that event, August 4th through 6th, 7th, I've been here every day except Sunday. Every day. making the whiskey, the brandies. About got it whipped. About got the order up. And that's another thing. I mean, I kind of mentioned it briefly, and you mentioned it just now, but the event we did... here at Sugar Hill Distillery to relaunch your whiskey brand and to officially launch Red Clay as a whiskey brand was

Such a success. I mean, it was amazing because, you know, we came here and had songwriters come down from Nashville and, you know, that had written songs inspired by. the podcast and your, and your story and your father's story and hundreds of people showed up. I mean, there was a line for, yeah, it was crazy. It was a line for people, you know, wanting to get pictures with you.

I could not believe that all those good, decent people come from wherever and stood in that hotline just to be able to. Have a little camaraderie, take a picture, and conversate with me for a few minutes. That's humbling. I don't care who you are. I don't give a damn what you think of yourself. If that don't get you, boy, if it don't bring you down to earth.

You ain't human. Yeah. Yeah. It was amazing that people I had so many people telling me that day and thanking me for doing this project and thanking me for telling your story and working with you to tell your story and how... Hearing how it had affected so many different people in so many ways on pretty deep levels. You know, their relationships with their families, with their kids, with their parents. Man, that was...

Yeah, you're right. I mean, you have to be in awe of that. But so the reason that we're here today and have microphones on is because since the end of the second season of the podcast. which profiles the Durham triple homicide in Boone, North Carolina, Watauga County. You know, the first time that I interviewed you for season one,

It was one of the first times I interviewed you, and we met at the distillery that you were just building, and a bunch of sheriffs from North Carolina came up. Do you remember that? and I think there was a GBI agent. Sure. They were asking you a bunch of questions about had your father ever committed murders in North Carolina, and they really wouldn't give any details and wouldn't mention names, never mentioned the name.

Durham. And we didn't really know what that was about. But luckily, you know, I was there to record that conversation. And two years later, it would come back and we hear about this.

Case being closed, this 50-year-old cold case being closed by the Watauga County Sheriff, and it made national news. I mean, it was, you know, Fox News and... abc and i mean just it went everywhere cnn reported on it knocked me on my feet first time i have been that surprised since i mean it was right up there we're here my father got another death sentence

That's how it affected me. And I think you were even interviewed by USA Today, weren't you? Yes. Yes, I was. Yes, it was big. And of course, so many people were reaching out.

And we kind of felt like that was the whole reason for season two was let's talk about this because you had pretty strong feelings then and you still do about... your father's alleged involvement in that murder and you know to to kind of remind people what happened i mean this family uh you know mother father and 18 year old son were murdered in their homes it was very brutal they were strangled tortured and drowned in the bathtub and that

crime, that murder has sort of been a stain on that town for 50 years. And so closing that was a big deal. Billy Wayne Davis, who has since passed away on Christmas Day of, I think, 2022. 2022. Yes, 2022. Christmas Day, he passed away. Before that. The 50th anniversary of them. Right, right. When I say them. That poor rinse couple. I don't want to say them. That's so different. Mr. Miss Fleming. So he was interviewed by Watauga County.

sheriffs and the SBI, which is kind of like the North Carolina version of the GBI, right? As well as Bob Ingram, who I interviewed in the first season. He was one of the guys who was involved in investigating that Fleming murder case. And they get a confession out of Davis, saying that he, along with your father and two others,

were responsible for that murder in Boone, North Carolina in 1972. When you say they, who do you mean? Billy Wayne Davis. I mean, who do you mean got the confession? Well, as what we've learned from the news is... Bob Ingram and the Watauga County Sheriff's Department. You have an issue with how that all went down. You were kind of vocal about that in the second season.

What is your issue with that confession, and why are you so adamant still that your father had nothing to do with that murder? Listen. I don't want to keep you here until this time next week, so I'll keep it short. Bill Wayne Davis knew nothing. He told them for six months that he knew nothing after they left my distillery in 2019. Bob Ingram says, let me talk to him because I can talk to anybody. You heard him say it.

If you go back and listen to, I think it's season five of Durham, second season, you'll hear Bob Ingram say. Episode five. Thanks, sir. four or five you hear him say here's how he done it now he covered his butt when he said this he said i just sat there and i just started telling him every detail of the range murder And then I went on into the Durham's. And when I got through, he said, now you done your homework while you're here. And I said, were you driving the car the same way at the Riz?

And he looked at me and I told him, I can tell the parole board, you cooperated or not? And he said, I was driving. And yes, it was the same. So Bob takes off of that and goes back and tells the sheriff. The sheriff goes and visits Davis and Davis corporates it.

cooperates not the first time right not the first time i'm talking about the second time the sheriff went back after bob wasn't done his magic right davis concurred right but let's some some clarity here because bob got a confession allegedly from davis Using his superpowers. Yes, sir. Went to the. By his own mouth, he offered him parole. Right. But then went to the Watauga County Sheriff's. They went and spoke with Davis and he said.

no the first time right he he said no adamantly for three times they went and seen him before bob ingram right now after bob didn't come back told them that he got a confession they went back to see davis the next month they would say yeah yeah i was driving they done it because they had a deal here stoney is talking about the fact that

Watauga County, North Carolina sheriffs visited Billy Wayne Davis in prison to question him about the Durham murders, to which Davis denied any role in. Then, Bob Ingram visited with Davis and solicited a confession. When Watauga County went back to see Davis again, he seemed to again confess but the sheriff wasn't satisfied and for a third time visited Davis. This time, he once again said he was not involved in the murders.

but the sheriff closed the case anyway. All of those interviews with Davis were recorded, but have yet to be released to the public by Ingram or Watauga County Sheriff Len Hageman. Stoney had arranged to meet with Davis himself, but one week before that scheduled meeting...

Davis died in prison on Christmas Day 2022. When that happened, I immediately... Me and three others, including yourself, wanted to ask him for the tapes they said they couldn't release until Davis died. Right. And the tapes that you're talking about are the recorded interviews. the four interviews between bob ingram and davis and also the recorded interviews of the sheriff's department in watauga three of them with sheriff

So those are the interviews that you're talking about. And yeah, we went back and we said, hey, because I was actually told in an interview with the sheriff that, like you said, I can't give those out while he's alive. Then he died, and I went and said, hey, what about now, as well as some other people, can we hear those interviews? And they said, we don't have them. And Bob Ingram said, I gave them to the sheriff's department. I don't have them.

What do you make of that? Well, it's called bullshit. Excuse me. Can you say that? Bullshit. Bullshit. Now. The hometown writer there, Terry Harmon, who's become a friend of mine. Terry Harmon is a local historian from Boone, North Carolina, who I interviewed in season two. Even then...

He raised questions about the validity of Davis' confession and Billy Burt's role in the murders. He's been investigating the case for a book he's writing. Terry has been making the same request, and the sheriff told him he's thinking about it all this time. something stinks high heaven because after he told so many people can't do it till after davis dies and then davis dies i'm thinking about it as if he's still investigating

And then goes on further to say, I ain't got them. And then just last month, do some kind of thing called Blue Ridge Runs Red in some newscast I've seen. It shows Bob Ingram putting the damn tape and Davis in there and play it for him. Just like when he.

In the Shane interviews that we have now, we have the four Shane interviews. The sheriff released those. I guess he said, well, I'll release the Shane interviews. That'll quiet them down. All that does piss me off because the first three interviews, Shane knew nothing except tails of Bigfoot. Stoney's talking here about his youngest brother Shane, who provided information to Bob Ingram through a series of interviews about his father's role in the Durham murders. Though Stoney feels...

It may be the other way around, with Ingram providing the information to Shane. And the last one, when Bob brought him back in, lo and behold, he must have had a vision from God because he knew their names, the inside of the house, the cars they drove, the son-in-law. the whole shaboom and that's what bob took to the sheriff and said damn davis we don't need him because we got his son telling all the details

And the sheriff took it on himself to circumvent the DA, the grand jury, due process and just announce case solved and closed. That's the first I've ever heard of that. Even Joe Chapman, when he. closed the case of dolls that made you first done he went to the da who went to the officials they run it through the circles found the validity of it to be true and together done it not bob ingram it just it just sucks so i'm here to straighten it out irrefutable

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I'm sitting here talking with Stoney Burt once again, and we are discussing the Durham murder case again from Boone, North Carolina, which of course was closed. officially in February of 2022 since the end of that podcast the second season of the podcast that we did you have learned some new information you've stood Very firm on believing the fact that your father was not involved in that murder in Boone, North Carolina. Yes, sir. My common sense was talking at that point.

What is it now that's talking? Damn facts. And it was there all along. I had just forgotten it and misplaced it. So tell me, tell me about that then. You go back and listen to episode 13 of season one. You will hear me. call you and say, Sean, I'm ready to talk about my mother. Yeah. And then you'll hear me tell you that my mother, when I got out of prison, was going with Harry Chance in December of 79, and it didn't go over well with me.

You hear me tell you that? Yeah. You hear me tell you that the first visit, me and her went to see my father after I got out. She spoke up and bragged about looking out the window, my bedroom window, by the way, that she was looking out. and seen him blow Charlie Martin's head off. And I call his name right there in your podcast. Right, I remember. Now, that was on a Thursday night, February the 3rd.

not our lounge owner says Billy you see Charlie yeah you need to take care of him as soon as Papa that's what I said I'm repeating myself of what we said on episode 13 and and we you and i talked about this off the record well before you even called me and said i'm ready to talk about my my mother yeah but i didn't relate that

while all this is going on over this unit that didn't come back to me yeah that didn't come back to me because i'm human and let's face it shown my mind has got so many memories i can't pull it up like a computer but boy when it hits now it hits Now, you heard me say, we're sitting in the room, Sean, and my mother speaks up and tells my dad that she walked him blow Charlie's head off. She didn't know it was Charlie.

And my dad looked at her and said, I'll be down. And my mother looked at the rest of them. He looked at me and he said, damn. What about that? How in the hell did she do that? My mother was bragging about her, I guess, being rock solid. That's another part of my 22 year old past that I've had to come to terms with. And when you say bragging, she was bragging to your father in your eyes. She forgot. I wasn't thinking about what I was hearing.

you know you say people do that if i'm talking to you and i'm trying to impress you all you and uh and a bystander a visitor sitting right here beside us i don't necessarily consider what he's thinking Makes no difference to me. I'm trying to make my point with you. But that's the way it was. What she didn't understand was she already knew that I knew about Harold.

She comes to me trying to explain it to me. Son, I need to talk to you. Mom, I really don't want to talk about it. But son, mom, please don't be. Damn it, Mama. He hired Dad to kill over 30 damn people. He just had burned up five kids. I know it was an accident. He was cocaine out of his damn hair, but damn it, Mama.

Can't you pick somebody worth a damn? That was my and her relationship. And after that show, it went downhill to the point where finally I just couldn't be around her because she got worse and worse with her. I don't know how to put it with her. I don't know words like narcissism, all that stuff. If people talk about, I just do know when somebody ain't real. My mother's not real. My daddy's real.

Everything he done was his eyes wide open. He never excused himself. I got a paper showing where he was sitting in his damn prison cell and they raided it. And when you raid a prison cell,

And you got more than the right amount of letters or pictures because they sent it all home. So I got everything in his prison cell from 1989, I believe it was. And one of the things... i got in the mail was this the land of newspaper and it showed every man on death row land of constitution what's this doing in here and then i wrote at the top of it i got it right here it says

All these son of bitches want to claim they were poor, they were abused, blah, blah. Why don't they just tell, just like me. Just mean as hell. Done what they done. Damn. Everybody want to have an excuse. Well, that was my dad. He didn't believe in excuses. He done what he done with his eyes wide open. He was never nothing to blame. He had to pay the price. He knew it. He's met his maker. That's the difference between my dad and my mother. My dad had rich on.

He didn't lose sleep. They didn't have to put him with a psychiatrist. He grieved over the ones he killed for kingpins. Looking back, he shouldn't have. He didn't grieve over snitches. He would have done it again. The day before he died, even though he was saved, if it was a snitch, he'd do it for nothing. That was my dad. He was honest in his...

Brutality. Okay. But so let's talk then about going back to the Durham case. I'm getting sideways. I'm getting sideways here. You do. You have a tendency to do that. Okay. I'm leveling back now. Yeah. So you learned information. You know, we came out with the second season. You were adamant that your father was not involved in that for many reasons.

uh this the way this murder was played out is not how he would have done it i think and and you're not the only one by the way you mentioned terry harman who is a local historian in boone he has serious questions and actually i think at this point it's safe to say does not believe your dad had anything to do with this i can't put words in his mouth but that's what i think yeah

Or he certainly has big... Let me put it this way. You know, I told you when we got through, if you ever lose your day job, son, go into therapy for what you've done for him. I told him, Terry, if you ever lose your job, go into investigation because you're pretty damn good, man, because he is undercover stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And let's talk about that, because that's why we're here. Right. And this this episode.

You tell me the tell me about the information that you learned regarding your father and Charlie Martin that relates to. the durham murder case and why you say your father not only wasn't but couldn't have been involved in that okay To tell you that, I've got to briefly tell you this. The reason we've done episode 13 is that my brother and my mother, Shane, was so jealous. For no other reason than what I call Cain Abel Jenner. They were so jealous of the podcast that we done.

and my books that I wrote, and did not mention my brothers or my sisters. I done it because I knew if I had mentioned the name, they'd sue me. And I also done it, I respect, because my dad always said, if you can't say nothing good, just don't say nothing at all, son.

i purposely left that out like i told you not to use my mother's name that ain't good enough shame come to my distillery we're writing a book me and mom about the truth of dead i said define truth well let me put it this way daddy's your hero mama's mine why they gotta be a hero shane uh what are you saying so he give me one page to look at

And I read that one page and it was so far in Mars, like she was 11 when he married her and he left her with $30 and she worked five jobs and had to walk uphill both ways in the snow. And on and on and on. And I said, Shane, let me tell you something. And you tell mom, if y'all want to write a book praising mom to high heaven, I'm all for it. Just don't get my opinion on it.

But you're not going to write a book building her up stepping on him. Don't do that away. I'll put a stop to it and you won't lie the way I do it. Well, he told me go to hell. And I called you up. I said, Sean, I'm ready to talk about my mother. So when I told you about her telling my dad, she watched him blow Charlie Martin's head off.

And I told the world that she was going with Harold Chassie and taking my brother and sisters. I stopped. I said, enough. So the question was, you learned information about. your father's involvement in Charlie Martin's death. Tell me about that and why that, in your eyes, makes it impossible for your father to have been involved in the Durham murders. I learned.

by going back to my original book put together in 2013, page 168 and 169, that Charlie Martin was abducted from Reece Spencer's Night Out of Lounge. On February the 3rd, a Thursday night, it was never seen again. I already knew this. I had forgotten it. I'm human. And the way, and they're not smart enough, they ain't going to sit here and take credit for remembering it. I got a text from a guy named Terry Harmon, who's just an epitome of a Mayberry good citizen right there in Boone.

And he's been writing the book on the murders because it's fascinating me his whole life. And he's come down here and seen me a couple times. I think he's seen about everybody involved. You, the Renz family. And everybody likes him, and I think everybody that meets him trusts him. He's a man of integrity, I can tell you that. He texted me and he said, Sonny, have you seen this? And he showed me a picture of Charlie Martin's tombstone. And he went on to say,

His wife has confirmed it. February the 3rd is the day he went missing. Charlie Martin. Charlie Martin. Charlie Martin's widow has confirmed it. She's still living. And I said this to him. I said, son of a... me Terry you know now I remember I told about it in my damn podcast and I wrote about it in my book let me go back he said all you don't have to is on page 168 169 I've done done it so Terry

Being able to look objectively with that emotion had already nailed what I should have gotten the first month, but here it is eight months later and I'm having Terry tell me, so I'll forever be in awe of his investigative skills. So to put it very plainly, Charlie Martin was killed by your father on February 3rd, 1972, the same night.

that the Durham murders were committed. And, you know, that's a five-hour drive from... I mean, I want to set the stage a little bit because that's... from from the winder area that's that's a good five hour drive keep in mind that would happen at night on a thursday night see rich specials though wednesday thursday friday thirties thursday was a dead night

Perfect time for him to say, Charlie, my cyclone won't crank. How about give me a ride to Statham, which he did. So keep in mind, I had to be between 10 and 1 because Reese opened at 9 and closed at 1. Well, the murders happened between 10 and 1, didn't it? I think the Durham murders was around between 9.30 and 10 o'clock. Okay, well, it's a possibility.

But it's not just that. It goes on in the Jim West report and the newspapers say the following Friday night, the 11th, he got Carolyn Cooper for the same reason. And the reason shown in Jim West's report right here. She was sending information. Her brother, Jim Baird, was. So that is a given. We're going to go to a commercial, and we'll talk more about this when we come back. Jim Rome takes on sports. Why?

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So Stoney, we've talked about the fact that Charlie Martin was killed on the night of February 3rd, 1972, the same night that the Durham murders were committed. a five hour drive away. in Boone, North Carolina and of course that night, horrible weather, snowstorm, blizzard conditions, so potentially even making that a longer drive than the normal five hours because I've done the drive.

And, you know, you have to go through the mountains. So getting to there from the Winder area is going to be a long drive if you were to commit then a murder. which is seemingly happening at the same time or in the same time frame, roughly, that Charlie Martin's murder was being committed in. And then you'd have to drive, you know, I guess my point is...

You're assuming it's on an assembly line or your time frame. It takes preparation for a murder. Sure. And I'm just saying this. It had to be put in a well fast. I'm just saying. Well, it was dynamited. I'm just saying, if someone is to make the argument that, okay, well, he could have been a part of both murders, I think that's impossible.

number one because of the the distance the preparation as you mentioned the weather was a factor and it's supposed to have a charlie's body yeah if you were if he was in a whale dynamite yeah center of the county on the same night yes hell yes you damn sure don't you damn sure don't kill somebody and then wait two three days for them to stop you with a damn body in the trunk you know

You get into where you, and that night was spontaneous because Reese said, you see, Reese was like Ruth. He had people calling him. And when Reese got the call that Charlie Martin, when he was cooperating with police officers. He immediately told Daddy because he knew that Charlie knew shit. And Reese didn't hire Daddy to do it. He just told Daddy, you need to get rid of him. Now, Reese didn't have him killed. Understand that.

He didn't say do this for me. He was the messenger. He just said, you need to take care of that. So let me ask you this.

kind of information would Charlie Martin have had that would... Well, according to Jim West's report, Charlie Martin was set to meet him and Howard Austin that very night in the arcade to give them information on whiskey stills and... information of where willie hester his cousin was buried right which of course was killed by your father in 71 yeah and and he was found in 79 78 and you showed me the the jim west report which you know

i knew about that i was aware of that from the time that we met really and started season one but you would never let me read it because for whatever reason you said i wasn't so awful all the murders are so awful yeah And even when you showed it to me when we did season two, you let me read that entire report, which I did front to back.

But you wouldn't let me even take a copy of it. No, it's too awful. Yeah, and it does. I mean, it lays out in chronological order. There were a couple little clips. From Jim West's point of view, the harshest point of view they are. True, and that was directly written after an interview, well, with Davis. He was in the Barrett County Jail. John Robert Austin was the sheriff. Jim West had Billy Wayne Davis there, offered him immunity.

After my dad's bank robbery got turned over, St. Davis, one of us is going to die. I don't know whose family is going to get first. You've got to do something to put Billy Bird away. If you will put him away on one of these murders, you'll get immunity. Everything you tell me.

will be immunity this is that report davidson's west talking and john roberts not a secretary but what do you call that woman with that thing on her mouth talking what is it court court recorded that stenographer yes john robertson officer that's the report that's the report it is done like that the words are exact yeah

Done by John Robert, the sheriff. Well, and there's no, there's no doubt about that. I mean, I read the report and it's, it's thorough. I read the report to the letter in Shane's interview. Did you remember that? Yeah. So. The reality is, and I guess to put this in the most simple terms possible, Reece Spencer relayed the message that he received from Ruth Chansey. No, from his own snitch.

Reece Spencer had way more money than the root. He wasn't in whiskey. Reece was in business. He had slot machines, pool tables. The man was a genius. He did not kill people. What my dad done for him is their business, but he did not hire my dad to kill Charlie Martin. He just simply told my dad, it just come to me from my source, Charlie is working with the law. I know Charlie is in with you on some things.

You need to take care of him as soon as... Daddy said, how soon? He said, as soon as possible. Immediately. That's it. Charlie, my cyclone won't crank me. Give me a ride home. So, Reese relays a message to your dad that Thursday, February... February 3, 1972. Charlie Martin needs to be dealt with in his words, and your father does that night. which we know now that it's been confirmed by Charlie Martin's widow.

That he was killed the night of February 3rd. Yes. Your father put him in a well that night and dynamited it. Where? In Gwinnett County. In Gwinnett County. And dynamited it. And simultaneously. in that same few hours roughly between 9 30 and 10 10 30 has been narrowed down to in Boone, North Carolina, five hours away, give or take. Troy Hall was giving them people the exact time. Troy Hall was doing that himself. He didn't hire Jack Dudley. He didn't have to. I don't know if I thought about it.

He hired no one. That would not have stayed a secret. Nobody's that smart. Look, my father's little organization, as smart as they come. No way that would have stayed. Troy Hall done it. The phone call tells it all.

He had to make up a phone call to give himself out about where he was, and then because of any experience of law enforcement, they went for it. But even Bob Ingram said it. That's preposterous. Everybody of today's law enforcement says, Troy Hall did it. He did. He was 19 year old. That's when you're the most deadly. The man just had, rode him out of the wheel. He had to get that wheel.

To think that for that day that he heard he's written out of the wheel, he could contact Billy Bird of all people and have him down there immediately to take care of that for him. And with no money and not get killed his damn. for messing with a man like that is ludicrous. What's more ludicrous is my dad would tell my young baby brother that he felt so badly about my mother treating him like she did.

Cuddled him, you see, and not make him grow up. For him to be telling my brother about such an awful murder is unimaginable. And so you and I met here with a Watauga County sheriff's deputy investigator, Carolyn Johnson. And you told this information to her. I was here for that. She told me the sheriff was coming. That's why I was here. Yeah. I was here for that conversation. And you presented this evidence, everything in the Jim West report, what the widow confirmed.

gave her a copy of everything and she did say and if i can pull it up i'll play a clip of it she did say uh it's very interesting it's very compelling and it does need to be looked into she was going to pass that information on to the sheriff Has the sheriff contacted you or made any statement regarding the information that he was given? No, the next time I, all along I held out on the grounds that.

I want my conscience clean. I don't want it down a good lawman. I believe he was due until I've seen him on River Runs, Blood Runs Red and Blue Ridge. When I see him grandstanding on there. I now have a very low opinion of the sheriff. I want him to know that. I know now that just like a lot of people in his town, I've heard from him, know that he's human.

He wants notoriety. He wants to be reelected. He wants to be the man who saw the crime. I now know that he has traded his integrity for notoriety. Well, let's talk about then you took that information to another sheriff. Two sheriffs. Okay. Tell me about that and tell me, tell me about what the response was and where that information, you know, what's, what's the situation now? What's

Is that information being looked at seriously? Well, hell yes, it's being looked at seriously. Who did you take that to? First, I went to the winder sheriff, the one who was sheriff then. And he said. This is a no-brainer. You should take this to Jackson County Sheriff because that's where he's from. She's the one and she cares about it. That's where Charlie Martin is from.

That's where he's buried. I took it to her. While I called her, I said, Janice, me and her know each other. We're not friends. We close acquaintances. We like each other. She knows I'm not a criminal. I know she's a good sheriff. I respect her. And that's it. I said, Janice, would you... like to close two murder cases in your county she said who is it and i said charlie martin and carolyn cooper she said i most certainly would because charlie martin is a

I'm friends with either his widow or one of his people. I forget. You know how I butcher words. Come Monday, bring what you got. So I went down there and I showed her everything. Everything. And she took it all. And she said, okay, I'm going to get with a DA and I'm going to get with a GBI and get clarification on all this. And thank you. And I left. And that was four weeks ago.

She called the Monroe Sheriff and talked to him about it. He said, yeah, he was pretty straight with me on the Dawes murder. And he told her how he went about closing it. Get with the DA. Grandeur. All that, look at the information they give him, compare it to what was there. So that's where it's at. So when you call her, I hope it's finished. Well, I spoke with her and here's a little bit of that conversation.

After Stoney reached out to me just recently about Charlie Martin, of course, I reached out to... the chief deputy in White County who was a GBI that worked on that case. Bob Ingram. Yeah, Bob. I reached out to Bob because I don't have any records at the sheriff's office about Charlie's disappearance. As far as the sheriff's office having even a missing report on him, we don't have anything. I remember when it all happened. I remember when he was found. So I reached out to Bob Ingram.

And I reached out to some family because when he went missing, they lived in Clark County. He worked for the University of Georgia as a maintenance guy. And Bob was going to pick up the file from the GBI. And I... Got a message that Bob got the file. And I intend to meet with him. It's odd, I think. You know, Stoney, there's a difference to him. Obviously, he knows his father was a murderer.

And, you know, has done all these horrible things. I think there's a difference to him of murdering someone and torturing someone in the way that the Durham's were. So as odd as it might sound to say, well, hey, look, he couldn't have been doing this murder because he was doing another one. He justifies that because the germs were so terribly tortured before they were murdered.

You know, when Stoney came to me, I just really didn't know. That's why I reached out to Bob. I didn't really know which way to go with it. I didn't. So clearly not the answer that Stoney was hoping for yet.

But at least Jackson County Sheriff Janice Mangum is checking on it. So where do you think this case stands now? The Durham murder? I mean, what do you think? What would you like to see happen? Given that you've provided this information and if the sheriff of Jackson County, Georgia does close this case of Charlie Martin, that would mean saying that your father was responsible for his murder.

february 3rd 1972 what would you like to see happen then i didn't know what i would like to see until i until two days ago i thought my mother nor shane And not Bob Ingram could possibly get on the stand and discuss any of this under oath. They would have to commit perjury or tell them to say, I would like to be able to challenge it. You know, first I told you.

I'll pay for the lie detector test. Hook us all up. That ain't going to happen. I don't know how to do it, Sean, but it needs to be due process of some sort. Now, you can't just take and say, Al Capone killed so-and-so. So let it be written, so to be done. You ain't Ramesses of Egypt. Sheriff can't do that.

i don't think i mean he's done it but and a lot of people raise the hell about it why won't he prove it why won't he shut me up why won't he why why do they keep their head in the hole like an ostrich why don't they You'll never hear Bob Ingram let Shane get to where anybody can ask him a question. You'll never see Phil Hudgens, I've had my mother, to be asked a question. Why? Because it's hard to keep up with a lie.

And they wouldn't speak three words until they told themselves because they're not good liars. Nobody is. Nobody's a good enough liar to be held under scrutiny, to be asked questions by an intelligent man like you. Are many other people out there unbiased to ask the hard questions? I'll be questioned back to back by 50. Let's do it.

Why is it so important to you that your father is not associated with this particular crime? Because you've told me and the world at this point of so many murders that he has been.

involved in and responsible. So you know that I'm not trying to say that he wasn't a cold-blooded murderer. You know that I'm not trying to say he wasn't capable of anything. What I am trying to say and what I'm going to say is I refuse to let especially someone of Bob Ingram, my mother most of all, Shane, and now the Comrade the Sheriff of their moral fiber. pump themselves up like pompous asses by putting another horrible murder on my father the same way the original

what Bob Ingram said when Jim West do at the Wrens trial. My dad killed all these people Sean, but he did not torture any of them. If you take away the Wrens, then you see a cold bloody murder. You don't see a son of a bitch out there gleefully torturing people. You don't see it. Anything you want to say to the people not associated with all this stuff. Just anything you think about. Sure, I do, I do. I want to say so much.

If I could put a color to how grateful I am, I had to invent one. People have treated me so good. I have not had one person Mistreat me, Sean, or talk down to me. You know, I thought I'd seen more grace than exist on earth when I met with the Renz family. But since then, I've come to find out, Sean, there's a lot of decent people in this world. And all the people have come see me. Not one redneck loudmouth fool has been with them. They've been decent people, and I've come and learned this.

Decent people are the only ones that will come see. You know, what y'all call the narcissists, the selfish people, they don't give that to nobody, but they're not going to see nobody. So when people come to visit with me, Sean, I take it so serious. and I enjoy it, especially when the older folks, I can listen to stuff myself. I sincerely thank every one of them.

And it'd be my idea of a seventh level of heaven for me to do this the rest of my life, just meet good people and feel good about it. That's a good stuff of life. Well said. Well... That's Stoney and Sean signing off. And we got a little Bloody Mary here and I'll toast to you. Here's to In the Red Clay. There we go. There we go. Cheers, buddy. Till next time.

So, you've heard Stoney sharing the information about his father's alleged role in Charles Martin's murder on February 3, 1972. And if this case is closed and Billy Burt is in fact implicated in that murder, and it almost certainly means that he was not present at the Durham home. as the two murders happened during the same approximate window of time five hours away from each other. I'll report back when I know more, but what do you think?

Let me know on social media at SeanKypeOfficial or by visiting SeanKype.com where you can find out more about all of my podcasts. Until next time, thanks for listening. In the Red Clay is a production of Imperative Entertainment. It was created, written, and reported by me, Sean Kipe, and I wrote and recorded the original music score. Executive producers are Jason Hoke and Gino Falsetto. Story editor is Jason Hoke. Sound design by Shane Freeman. Cover art and design by Gina Sullivan.

Season two of In the Red Clay, Durham, is a six-episode series with new episodes available every Monday. To keep up with this and my other podcasts, follow me on social media at SeanKype. Have questions? Email us at podcasts at imperativeentertainment.com. If you like the series, tell your friends and leave us a review. Thanks for listening.

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