Hour 2: The Unseen World Around Us

about God? And are you not in a moment of awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man, that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you

wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have this sense of awe through the work that they do. In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse

because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you to walk through the chapters written by people who all have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount, just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask for a copy of Have You Ever Wondered? And we'll send it right off to you as my way of

saying thank you, because we are listener supported radio. Or you can go online to in the market with Janet Parshall and you're also on the website, consider becoming a partial partner. Those are people who give every single month at a level of their own choosing. You always get the truth tool, but in addition to that, you get a weekly newsletter that includes my writing and an audio

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You got to realize that we got one nation who believes in their eschatology, that if they can annihilate the Jewish Zionist regime, their words, not mine, that they can bring about their Mahdi, which is their Messiah, and they can islamicize the whole world. That's their spiritual blindness, by

the way. You see what goes on where lawlessness is now, filling the streets of America, where suddenly the whole idea of the rule of law, which, by the way, let the record reflect, your Honor, is there because our basic nature says if you don't have self-control given to you through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit, you need a government to box check you. And that's why God creates three important institutions in this order family, government, the church.

Does it ever bother you that he created government before the church? It does me. It reminds me how much we need those boundaries. So when lawlessness takes up residency in the streets of America, that should bother you. That is, at its core, spiritual warfare. When you've got drag queens dancing on the floor of the assembly of the State of Oregon, that's spiritual warfare. Um, that's also a hallmark that a civilization is collapsing. I mean, the list goes

on and on and on. So much of the stuff we watch, it isn't a matter of saying, oh, you know, the devil made me do it, but it is a matter of recognizing that he is called the prince of this world for a reason. And there's a lot of stuff we're seeing in the news today that gives evidence to the fact that he thinks he's getting away with it. Well, check your watch. Oh, yeah. It doesn't end well for him. But in the meantime, he's leaving a wake of destruction in his path. Which you and I are. The men

and women of God. We are to suit up, get up and get out into this world that's upside down. And you don't have any kind of a victory unless, number one, you know who your commander. Commander in chief is. Number two, you understand he is the conqueror. Okay? And greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world. And number three. Hello. You believe in the reality of spiritual warfare? If you don't. Well, I'll tell you what. I think you're just trying to

feel your way in the dark. And that's why we have conversations on a regular basis with Doctor Carl Payne. I never in a million years thought we'd be talking about this all the time. But, gosh, if you take George Barna's research, he does it at the Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University. It's not the world that's got a problem. It's us. It's the church. What do you mean? The Bible isn't the word of God. It

just contains the Word of God. Let me tell you, there's a space about as big as the Grand Canyon. Between those two ideas, God breathed, ordained, inspired, an errant, transcendent, immutable. And if you don't believe it isn't. It isn't the Word of God, not just contains the Word of God. You got a problem right out of the gate. But when you subscribe to that idea that it just contains not is, well, then you start believing things like Satan is not real. It's not a real entity. Jesus sinned.

Jesus isn't the only way of salvation. And all of a sudden you've got the devolution of the core center of your belief because you haven't looked at the Word of God and claimed it to be what it is. God breathed, inspired, inerrant, transcended, immutable. And one of those issues in the 21st century is the idea of spiritual warfare. So Doctor Carl Payne comes on a regular basis and teaches us about this. He's a pastor, a teacher, a speaker,

an author, former chaplain for the Seattle Seahawks. And I do not hold that against him by any stretch of the imagination. He's on staff at Antioch Bible Church in Redmond, Washington. His primary role there is serving as the pastor of Leadership Development and Discipleship Training. And I'm going to say it again because I mean it. I don't get paid to say this. I'm saying it because I believe it. One of the best books out there is called Spiritual

Warfare Christians Demonization and Deliverance. It's been updated, it's been reprinted. And I know so many of you have gotten that book, and I'm so glad because you love it when he comes to visit. Here's what else you know when he comes to visit, we open the phone lines and we're going to take your questions. Questions only on the topic of spiritual warfare. 187754836758775483675. The topic on the table is spiritual warfare. Any question you've got. And we're going to

take questions the entire hour. But Carl pull up a chair. Make yourself comfortable. I so look forward to these conversations. And I was thinking of all the things I wanted to ask you. And I usually try to pull a story because the headlines are replete with at least a hat tap on the hat, or some kind of a recognition that the occult is ascending. In fact, I just wrote a radio commentary called No Hocus Pocus because the numbers of Christians who are using tarot cards is growing. What? What?

I mean, what part of don't have anything to do with it don't you get? But Christians are using horoscopes and they're playing tarot cards. I don't get it. But also, I have a problem inside the church as well. Because if you don't believe in the reality of spiritual warfare that has a dominoes effect on a series of other key doctrinal positions, it seems to me as well. So for you, if you talk about spiritual warfare and you have been present, and I know you didn't sign up

for this, God called you to it. When demons have been cast out of individuals, it wasn't Hollywood. It wasn't hocus pocus. It was the real deal. And you've seen it. Do you think in your life and your walk with Christ, if you've seen the manifestation, the manifestation of demonic powers? Likewise, could you ever give a testimony to saying I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that was angelic?

what to think about it. You know, most of the time it was just something that if you talked about mediums and, you know, spiritism and such, it would just be like, I don't have time for that Ouija boards. It's like, who has time for goofy stuff? It was something that wasn't on the radar. I think a because there was still a lot of, uh, even non-Christians just saying, I don't I don't have time for that stuff. And Christians certainly would have said, uh, uh, so I guess

the difference would not be did it happen? And were there angelic things going on? But one would I have recognized it? And b the difference between where instead of being snuck in, but they're now just blatantly putting our faces and almost daring you to say something. What a difference in the decades.

why beauty takes our breath away? My Truth Tool this month is a thought provoking book that explores those moments of wonder we all encounter. It's called. Have You ever Wondered? Consider how ordinary aspects of life point to the extraordinary biblical truths. Ask for your copy of. Have you ever wondered when you give a gift of any amount in the market, call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall. Doctor Carl Payne is with us and we are talking about

spiritual warfare. We're taking your questions at (877) 548-3675. I love this song and on the whole 877 I'll Spare You (877) 548-3675 and Carl, I've already got people lined up, but I still want to get your thoughts because I was asking you in the work that God has called you to, and I know you didn't sign up. You were drafted into his army in this particular area about whether or not if you had seen the demonic action and you have you been there when they've been cast out of people?

Have you ever had an experience where you could point to and say, I know definitively that was an angelic presence? I mean, Hebrew says, hey, be careful. You could be entertaining an angel, but you don't know it. Right. So you had other things to say about the opening, so please go before. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts before we go to the phones.

and the person's life does a 180 and absolute change. Carl, I've got my mind back. I can think again. The thing that was laying on me is gone. A year later, two years later, three years later, Carl still checking in things. It's changed. I mean, that I suppose ultimately, just pragmatically. But.

But something, you know, maybe you're you're wondering or for listeners, it would be like when I have someone that came in here and I don't do this very often because I don't give demons anything to think they're in control of something. It it emboldens them. But I have an individual come in, and this was way early. It was 83. So I you know, I'm still learning, but I was really learning then. And he said, well, I believe this is going on, but how do I know this is real?

And I did something that I don't do very often. I said, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, I was sitting in my office. Uh, Yeah. Demons that are involved with in his name. You're permitted to show him your real, but you're not permitted to hurt him in the process. The name of the Lord Jesus Christ, do it now. We command that through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Boxes in my room started moving around. I mean, I watched them with my own eyes and he looks over at me and he says, you don't have any strings on your fingers, do you? And I said, no, I don't. He said, okay, this is real. I said, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, you're not permitted to play any games. Now we're going. But now I have a guy looking at this going. Now people say, why don't you do that every time? It's kind of cool.

And I go, no, because what I was doing in my infancy with this is giving demons the idea that I actually care about what they can or can't do, and them hoping, you know, that, that they can take over. Well, now, I won't do that. I'll just say, friend, if you're not ready to roll with this, we're not going. If you are, demons are losers. We're not accommodating them in any way. So you know that that would be one thing that that struck my mind. I'll give you another.

And again this sounds. I see, I don't like it. People have asked me, why don't you write a book on some of the odd stuff? And I go, because I don't want to glorify the wrong side. I tried to write a book that says, here's how you deal with it. Uh, we win. They lose. You know, just don't promote it as a circus. But I had a young lady who was, uh, a Hawaiian and, uh, just the island was, you know, they still are just filled with this kind of stuff. And we came in and

she came in the office, we dealt with it. And I said at one point after we were done, and she did wonderfully, and she and her husband have helped so many people with this. Uh, I mean, they have been warriors. But at one point, after we're all done, I said at one point, your face totally changed as I was commanding, and I told her what the person looked like, and she just got big and wide open, and I, I mean, and see, we were dealing with

a bunch of ancestral issues Just. And she said, that's grandma. I don't remember what she was. And she goes, I mean, I described what. And I am telling you, as I sat there, the woman that I was talking to was a believer. I saw this old lady's face and body. I mean, I told her about how tall I didn't. I'm not used to that kind of stuff. But this thing manifested itself right in my room. And when I said to her this was odd, and she just goes,

that's my grandmother. Well, guess where the ancestral stuff was coming through, grandmother. And if someone said, I couldn't make that up, and I'm not creative enough to figure out how to do that. I mean, I've had, you know, different things, you know, happen. Um, you know, responses coming from people where they would go, uh, you shouldn't know that. I didn't tell you that. How did you know that? And I go, I'm not psychic. Well, this is what

it just said. And that's absolutely true. And and you commanded it to say. And it's like I didn't make that up. I didn't even think that up. And I go, I know, I know, that's why sometimes I'll tell them. Tell them the lies they've told you regularly. Because I want you as the person demonized, to understand because you're hearing lies in your head doesn't make any of it true. It just means that they're hoping you'll bite on it and then they can detract your life. And I was today,

I got a call. Very nice person, you know, 46 years old, but said I'm moving to and it was another state tomorrow. And I said, why? And they said, well, someone came over and told me that they, uh, God had told them I was supposed to move. So I quit my job and I'm moving. And I said, how do you know what was said was from God? And he got kind of quiet and, well, it was supernatural. And I go, that's supernatural. Remember, there's two sides that

can work in that arena. And I said, maybe, maybe God spoke to you through a friend in your church. I'm not saying he can't do that, but I said I would want to know a little bit before I quit my job and move. And he said, well, I just thought it had to be true because it was supernatural. I say, we forget. We forget that there there are

two sides and they can both play games. I mean, when Paul talks about the in in first Timothy four one about, you'll understand we're getting nearer when you see that the demonic deception is increasing and increasing, it would certainly mean it has to be real enough and often enough that even the Saints are looking going, what in the world is going on here?

Carl Payne. Our topic spiritual warfare 758775483675. Then call in early because lots of people have questions on this most important topic back after this.

revelation 12 1011. We feel like we get bombarded with, you know, you're ugly, you're stupid, no one likes you. Your prayers bounce off the ceiling, why do you pray, etc. that offensive prayer that we've talked about so many times, I don't need someone else to pray offensively over me. The same God that lives in that person lives in me. If we're Christians, I can pray offensively. And it's very effective at saying, you know what? You're not welcome here.

Get lost if it's you know what I still say demonization. I don't like the word possession. I don't use it because it's so there's so much baggage. People thinking it's talking about demons owning people. And I have said demons don't own Christians. They don't even own non-Christians. Demons are squatters. They're part of the creation. And they very much want

to control us. You know, remember the Isaiah 14, the I wills, I mean the arrogance and the desire to control and power and all got Lucifer in trouble, too. But when we're talking about someone that has gotten themselves wrapped, involved with demonization demons, I'm saying it's more severe, uh, than than the irritating, uh, arrows. It's it can be really debilitating. But I wrote that whole chapter eight in my book saying, you know what? Here is a process

I've never said. It is the only process. It's just I've said it's battle tested. It works and it's biblically based. But where? I have had missionaries call me from overseas saying it wasn't cost effective to fly in to see you, but I took that chapter eight. I just walked through it and I am free. And thank you for writing that book. And I said, well, you'll become more proficient with it helping others. It's like, oh, I know. Well, how could that be? Don't you have to have a

a gifted, you know, person in deliverance? Well, first, there is no spiritual gift of deliverance. We deal with demons through delegated authority that Luke 1018 to 20 says is given to everyone whose name is written in heaven. It's in the book of life. If your name isn't written in heaven, you're not a believer. If you are a believer, your name is written in heaven, which means, he says, I've given you authority to tread upon me and step on serpents, scorpions over all the power of the enemy.

They shall not harm you. However, or nevertheless do not rejoice because spirits are subject to you. Rejoice because your names are recorded in heaven. So I'm saying, sister, you have the same delegated authority I do. And again, I would encourage you, you know the three little seeds that I, you know, confess, cancel command. But if it's gone beyond what the offensive prayer will take care of, it's no

problem to go to be flip the switch. Okay. If they have a right to be there, that topos according to Ephesians 427. And if you're not familiar, you can catch it. You know, it's I'm not the only one that writes about it, but I've written about it. If they've been given a place, space, or territory to control, then you say, Lord God, it's time for that to be taken away. Would you forgive the sin that opened the door? There's your confession. Would you cancel any ground

that they hold against me through that? Since you've cleansed me, closed the door. And then third C command them. Get lost. And I've had people say yes. Uh. And I'm saying yes as long as you're in Christ. If you're not a Christian, don't mess with them. Acts 19 says you can get beat up, but I don't mean that funny. I mean, you know, Jesus. We know Paul. We recognize. Who do you think?

I guess it makes them feel you know better about what they're doing or something, or thinking it gives them another star on their, on their, on their vest or something. And I'm just going it's misleading. It's not necessary. If you're in Christ, you're on the side that wins. If they're part of the creation, they're on the side that loses. Creator beats creation. So the one belonging to Christ should have greater authority than the one who belongs to part

of his creation. When I understand it, their attitude is usually get it over with. If I don't understand that, they will either one go silent hoping you'll ignore them or be manifest and try and intimidate. It usually goes one way or the other, and for them they're smart enough to go. Which way do I think I can, you know, keep my work going well, with this one. I'll just be quiet. You know, they don't want to see it anyway. What? This one. I'm just going to

scare them. And either way they go, I get to keep doing my work, I go, no, I approach them in the name and delegate authority of the Lord Jesus. I win because Christ won.

yourself nodding in agreement? Then why not take the next step today and become a partial partner? Your monthly gift will help to keep us on the air, and you'll receive exclusive behind the scenes resources directly from me, like a transcript of my weekly commentary and exclusive weekly audio briefing, and more. Become one of our partial partners today by calling 877 Janet, 58, or go online to In the

market with Janet Parshall. Doctor Calpain is our guest and we are talking about spiritual warfare and you just love it when he comes. How do I know? Because lines light up like a Christmas tree. He is a pastor, a teacher, a speaker and author, and former NFL chaplain currently on staff at Antioch Bible Church in Redmond, Washington. His primary role in that capacity is serving as the

pastor of Leadership Development and Discipleship Training. And to that end, he's got a fabulous book on this topic called Spiritual Warfare Christians Demonization and Deliverance. It's linked right there in my information page, clicking on and follow through so you can determine how you can get your own copy as well. Marcia, I welcome you from Florida. Thanks for stopping by. Your question please.

so-and-so and read and I mean, nothing touches this. I would have no problem saying, have you ever considered maybe maybe it's something different altogether? Uh, maybe the reason some of this isn't touching it is because it's it's not what's really causing it. And if they'll look at me and hook a little bit and go, well, what are you talking about? Now I'm now I'm talking to them. But in response to their asking me, you know, what

are you talking about? Instead of me saying, hey, you need to pick up a Bible, you need to go see someone and get rid of demons. Well, you know, most people don't respond well to something like that, Christian or non-Christian. So I look for ways to go fishing if I see it. But at the point that if I'm the one badgering pushing, I have found more often than not people will just say, uh, what do you want to hear? For me to leave you alone because you're a creep and I don't even want to talk

to you. So I don't think you do yourself any favors when you say, I'm here to be the the demon buster. Uh, I haven't seen that. Be very helpful. Uh, when people are responding because you've raised up something they didn't understand or stuff that they've tried to work with hasn't worked, or have you considered? Or here's a good book. Have you ever read Janet's book on? You know, it's an excellent book. Maybe Christian or non-Christian? They'll go, no,

I haven't, thank you. And who knows? You know, after that, say, hey, you know that book that I read, I've really got some questions. Well, now they're coming to you with questions. And it's like, Marcia, you're doing them a favor by answering their questions. So they're not looking at you like, you know, I'm running from you. It's like, thank you for the help. That would be the first one. The

second one. On the difference about, you know, when demons are bugging versus when I'm just having a bad day. I will say that. And I've said it this way. It's it's a little akin to the question about how do you tell the difference when when something is demonic, supernaturally sourced and when it's mentally, you know, maybe someone's just had a breakdown. It's just something that isn't connected. And I have I have said that because the answer

is much the same. I said usually when it's demonic, it will be second person in in in in what I mean by that is you process things. Marcia. First person. I'm tired. I'm having a bad day. Um, boy, did I do something wrong. I should have this should of that. That's how we process things. That's. That's us. When you're catching, you know, you always have bad days because you're such a rotten Christian. Your Bible reading is a joke. Your prayers bounce off the ceiling and no one likes you.

You know those Christians at your church are a fake. I've asked people the pronouns flip. Why? Because when demons are speaking, they mentally. Second Corinthians 11 one through four is one place that says, yep, that's where they surely can attack. And it's usually mental. But they're not me, so they don't. It's not me, uh, throwing that kind of thought in my thinking. Uh, any more than it was Eve saying, I'm going to make up that a serpent is saying to me. Has God really said I

wasn't part of her thinking? It was. It was. It was intrusive. But they're typically second person. And I think it's because demons aren't us. They want to throw out the lions to see if they can take us fishing. But it can't be I because they're not me. And I've said, if it's we, sometimes there can be more than one. Someone says to me, I heard we're going to kill you. I mean, if it's real, maybe there's just more than one demon, but none of us process

in a first person plural pronoun. We had a bad day, didn't we? Uh, we're tired, aren't we? I don't think that way. And I don't process that way. So that would be one of the responses. The second one I would give you is when it's demonic, so much of it will go back to either your inadequate as a Christian or Jesus is inadequate as a Savior. It's either why you'll never make it, you're never good enough, you know, whatever it is you and just give up and quit.

Or if Jesus loved you, why doesn't he watch out for you? It's because he doesn't really love you. This is never going to change. Or Jesus loved you once, but he left you. He's so disgusted with you. So just kill yourself because you're never going to get back in his good graces. But I'll say almost always, when demons are involved, it's going to involve some kind of of a of a rub against me as a Christian or Jesus as a savior.

my son? Would you put my son in a position, hopefully in a I don't want it to be tragedy, but would you put him in a position where he turns back to you, assuming he ever did turn to you? I don't I don't know him. I don't know anything about it. Because someone is baptized certainly doesn't make them a Christian any more than because I go to church. It makes me a Christian. I can sleep in a barn and not be a cow, and I can take a bath and and not be a pig, you know,

kind of thing. But what I'm suggesting would be, uh, I'm going to be praying for demons to ultimately leave the one if it's a Christian. If they're not Christians, they they have no fear. They'll say, I don't have to obey anything you say, but assuming it's a Christian and they know that your authority is greater, or the

Christian's authority is greater if they want them gone. Christian doesn't have to put up with it, but since he would be the one if he's involved himself with this stuff that needs to have this stop, he needs to be the one saying, Lord God, forgive me. You know, I've got myself involved in all kinds of things and that we're tapas. We talked about in Ephesians 427. I've given away places and spaces and ground to enemies that I want given back to you. Would you forgive me

of the sin and cancel any permission they have? That has to come from the demonized person. A person that loves them and prays for them can say, I want that to happen, but it has to come from them. So my prayer for the one that's a loved one is going to be saying, Lord, put them in a place where they will want that, where they will see that, they'll see the error of their way. They'll see, why would I want to give my life to the one who has lesser authority, i.e. the creation, One than the

one who has all authority, the creator. When Jesus says in Matthew 2818, all authority is given me, he says, not just on earth, in heaven and earth. And so I'm the boss. 19 here's the job. And 20 don't forget, I'm always with you. I remember as a Christian, I'm on the side of the one who won so I can intercede and pray. Lord, help them understand that that's what I would be doing as a parent.

and all. Well, I'll have people come in where, uh, and this doesn't happen occasionally. I'm saying I've had this happen often enough that it registers. It would be like Carl my so and so, you know, son, daughter, whatever it was. I mean, when they were three, four and five, I mean, they would wake up screaming that there was something in the room, that there was something touching them. And we would just go, oh, honey, it's just a bad dream and all, and I wish I'd have taken

some of that more seriously. I don't know that there's 100% way to be able to see the difference in that, but if I'm seeing someone continually coming up with thoughts that aren't appropriate, questions that aren't appropriate, or constantly telling me something's going on as a parent, I'm going to check that out instead of just assuming ain't kids cute?

may I just say they're excellent questions. And there's so many wonderful ones still online. (877) 548-3675. Beverly, thank you for being here from Florida. Your question please.

even if he isn't baptized? He says, I don't want to get baptized, and God knows why, you know so. And and I wanted to do something, but I didn't feel like I had enough authority power to get rid of that demon.

door to them. So, uh, when, when, when, uh, we've I think I've referenced it 2 or 3 times already, but when Christians give tapas a place or a space of control to demons, it doesn't mean they're owned by the demon. And I don't think that's what you're saying, but it certainly means that they can have a degree of control until whatever was given to them is taken back. That's why it is so important when I say it's not my job to chase people down. Are they Christian? non-Christian?

Are they Christians living in disobedience out of choice? Is it a Christian? Just overwhelmed, I don't know. I want, I want to know from them. Are you the one wanting to deal with this? If your friend is truly born again, uh, there's there's no reason. If he's willing to put on the table. I say three non-negotiables I write in that book. Number one, you're a Christian. Number two, you're 100% honest and open about whatever. Open the doors. And number three, you came to fight, not make excuses

or passively run. If he's there, it can be. It can be dealt with. It just needs to be dealt with instead of ignored. Number two, um, the New Testament does not indicate anywhere that baptism has anything to do with whether or not demons can, uh, you know, demons will leave a person or not. naught. That's if someone has told you that, or if that's just an assumption you've made, that a person who has been baptized demons will leave. But a person who hasn't been baptized, they won't.

There there's not a biblical support for that, at least not contextually. So, you know, if someone said to me, is baptism important, I would say Amen. Do you encourage baptism? Amen. I do, I will say the baptism is an external ordinance that we're supposed to be involved with as a way of telling people inside, my life has changed and and I want you to know about it. So it becomes something where the private that happened in my heart becomes public. And it's a wonderful thing. And believers were

encouraged to be to be baptized. But I'm nowhere told that baptism determines salvation, at least not contextually. The Mark 16 is not contextual. And the acts chapter two, and those are the only two verses people that really push that hard like to go to. And both of those can be dealt with contextually in a way that just says, yes,

it's important. But no, it doesn't determine salvation. And if it doesn't determine salvation, I'm saying, again, I'm not aware of anywhere in Scripture that it says that my baptism changes whether or not demons will respond to the delegated authority of a Christian, which is given to them when they believe. When they believe.

see it clearly at the time of Jesus. You see it. And I think we're told over and repeatedly. I mean, Jesus in Matthew 24, things are going to be going on are going to be far beyond normal. And I think Paul says several different places, but I already mentioned the first Timothy four one, that there's going to be used the word uptick or an increase in demonic delusion. So if somebody said, do I think that that could

be an indication that we're we're coming closer. I kind of think, like, I think, uh, Janet was saying, I'm not going to try to predict the day or the time. You're not told to do that. But I think I have to be a blind person if I don't see there is so much going on that that certainly sounds like it falls in line with things that Jesus says

in Matthew 24 are going to be going on. And, uh, you know, the first Thessalonians 413 to 18 is going to be going on, uh, one of the things that I thought about when, uh, with Janet's opening, I see maybe this is an appropriate time. I'm taking a class right now through, uh, Doctor David Jeremiah's book, The Book of Signs. So someone's teaching my book in a in a group. I'm teaching his book right now in a group. But we just. Last night, we did a chapter on apathy.

And my first thought is, okay, he's going to go after the apathy of, of, uh, you know, the world around us. And there's so much, you know, going on now that 30 years ago I would have never believed could be going on. Natural or supernatural. But he basically comes up and part of what he says is. Is the church, instead of standing against it, just becomes normalized. And I'm more concerned about looking out of step with my friends than I am what's right or wrong. So

instead of standing up, we just shut up. And I think he's saying part of that apathy is not just the world and its freefall, but it's Christians and not being willing to be the pillar of truth. You know, first Timothy three.