Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens, and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas. But before you go, I want to tell you about this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered? And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me, going out into the night sky and looking up and seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think
about God? And are you not in a moment of awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man, that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you
wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have this sense of awe through the work that they do. In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse
because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you to walk through the chapters written by people who all have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount, just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask for a copy of Have You Ever Wondered? And we'll send it right off to you as my way of
saying thank you, because we are listener supported radio. Or you can go online to in the market with Janet Parshall. When you're also on the website, consider becoming a partial partner. Those are people who give every single month at a level of their own choosing. You always get the truth tool, but in addition to that, you get a weekly newsletter that includes my writing and an audio piece just for my partial partners. So 877 Janet 58 or the website
in the market with Janet Parshall. Consider becoming a partial partner or asking for this month's truth tool. Have you ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast. Hi, friends, this is Janet Parshall. Thanks so much for choosing to spend the next hour with us. Today's program is pre-recorded so our phone lines are not open. But thanks so much for being with us and enjoy the broadcast.
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
Americans worshiping government over God.
Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. I am so glad we're going to spend the next hour together because we're going to talk about seeking the Lord. A lot of people don't know that that's really what they're doing, but it really is about listening to the awe around us, the clues that have already been laid out before us. You know, he said, because he loves us so much. And he also made the statement, he's not willing that any should perish, that if we seek him,
we will find him. If we seek him with all our heart, we will find him. And that's why read and first Chronicles. Look to the Lord and his strength. Seek his face always. Oftentimes, though, people are seeking and
they don't even realize it. And yet there are all of these things that make us stop and wonder wrapped around us that just might be there, not by accident, but ways in which the Lord prods us, pokes us so that we might continue our journey of discovery of who he is, and more importantly, who we are in him. I'm so glad we're going to spend the hour together, and we're going to spend the hour with Andy Bannister. Now, I have to say, in full disclosure, I'm rather prejudicial
when it comes to Andy. I absolutely love his writing. In fact, we have featured his books as truth tools on this program. That's so important. I think his writing is, and I love the way he's such a wonderful evangelist. He has a winsome way of sharing the gospel in a natural way, in a non-threatening way of picking up on those clues that already God has placed in other people's hearts. And he does that. By the way, in
his newest book called Have You Ever Wondered? Now, not only is Andy an editor in the book, but he's also a contributor. But by way of background, Doctor Bannister, to be very formal and accurate is a speaker, a writer, a broadcaster, and the director of Solas. He's written several books, including The Atheist Who Didn't Exist or The Terrible Consequences of Bad Arguments. And Do Muslims and Christians Worship the
Same God? He has a PhD in Islamic studies and enjoys engaging with people of all faiths, and none about life's big questions. He's married, he has two children, and he loves to hike and travel and tell dad jokes. Andy. What a joy to have you back on the program again. I should point out to our friends that you join
us on the other side of the pond. At this point, you should have your fuzzy slippers on and you should be getting ready for bed, but you're staying up late to be with us and I don't take that for granted. So thank you, Andy.
Well, thank you for having me back. Janet and I have got my mug of cocoa, so I've at least made a nod to the fact it's it's 10 p.m. here, but always a delight to join you, even at this hour.
Oh, I thank you so much. I just absolutely love the book. So I pointed out that not only are you a co-editor, but you are also a contributor, but it really is this idea of aw, I love it, and I thought, I can't possibly encapsulate this. I have to ask you, Andy, to do it. Talking to people all over the United States, you have 28 pieces where 28 questions are asked by starting with the words. Have you ever wondered how does wonder and finding God tie together?
Well, Janet, this actually grows out of the last book I wrote, which we I think talked about last time I was on your show. So that was the, uh, how to Talk about Jesus without looking like an idiot book. And I taught the importance of asking questions. And one of the questions I used was that, have you ever wondered question. And it's designed when you've got friends, colleagues, family members who would say to you, I'm not into God, I'm not interested, I'm not religious. you know, that can
be tough sometimes, right? But what I began to notice, my friends who are like that, I would often have things they care deeply about, you know, human rights, justice, racism, the environment, you know, the the state of politics, whatever it is, there'd be things they're passionate about and things that actually really only make sense if there is some kind of God behind the universe. The easy one to
illustrate that is human rights. You know, if we're just a collection of atoms, talk of human rights really doesn't mean much, actually. Whereas if there is a God who made us in his image and imbued us with value and dignity, talk about human rights makes a lot of sense. And so you can begin to realize, to ask these questions. When our friends express a passion or an interest in something, you know, if you can learn to sort of gently wander with them, hey, I wonder why you that matters
to you. I wonder if you've thought about, you know, perhaps some of the implications of that idea or where it might come from. And so it started with the idiot book, as my daughter likes to call that last book. And, uh, and then we actually my, uh, my co-editor, Gavin at Solas, and I thought, what about if we did a whole
book on this space? And you say, we've got 28 chapters with an introduction and a conclusion, ten, nine different authors, including a couple of Americans in there, not just Brits. And so we look at a whole range of questions, you know, have you ever wondered why justice matters? Have you ever wondered why we love stories? Have you ever wondered why we we seek love? Have you ever wondered, uh, you know why maths works. I mean, the list goes
on and on and on of questions. And we found already. Janet, in the two months it's been out, it is just the easiest evangelistic giveaway. Um, because people love the whole wandering idea. People love to think and ponder and it's designed to be very gentle. Book. It doesn't get people all the way to the gospel, but it starts people thinking about spiritual questions. And my hope is it opens up conversations that could lead to the gospel.
Truly. And you are an evangelist at heart. And as you say, the synergy between how to talk about Jesus without looking like an idiot and have you ever wondered, really, is a hand in a glove because you set the stage for us in How to Talk about Jesus, that we don't have to be afraid. And you do teach us the art of natural conversations. And so what you've done with, have you ever wondered, is you just pay
attention to people? Everybody wonders about something. Whether it's standing in the night sky, looking up, seeing the stars, and you start thinking about the universe, eternity, the stars. I mean, the vastness of this speaks to the littleness of who we are. And it makes us wonder, why am I here? What's my purpose for living? So we pick up on that stuff that's already there. Can I ask just because there are these 28 different contributions where you pulled your contributors from?
Yeah. So what we did, we one of the joys of working for Solus over the years. And I know you've also had Solus founder David Robertson on your show in the past. So one of the joys of of Solus over the years is being a small organization. We've had to actually, just by design, have to use other
writers and contributors and speakers and we do events. So that's given us over 16 years this really vast network, actually mainly in the UK, but also some in the in the US as well, are people who've written and contributed. So when we came up with the vision for the book, um, you know, Gavin Matthews, my co-writer, and I sat down and went, okay, basically, who would be the dream team? Janet, you know, if we could, you know, assemble eight other
people to write with us, who would it be? And in most cases, we got that dream team because we had those relationships. We reached out to people who we thought would be great. And, uh, and God was really good. We ended up with this amazing team of men and women, uh, writing on these vast range of topics.
And it ends up being an amazing book as a result. By the way, a couple of thoughts quickly as we go to break. You know, I've been following Christ for a long period of time, and it was wonderful for me because it just affirmed how much God loves me and the ways in which he's put those clues out there to let me know that he's there. But also, it's a marvelous book for evangelization. So I want our friends particularly to understand that because this is a great
way to have that conversation. And oh, by the way, for the record, you are praying about having those kinds of conversations, aren't you? I hope so. That's what this program is designed to get you to do out there back after this. Have you ever wondered why music moves us so deeply, or why beauty takes our breath away? My Truth Tool this month is a thought provoking book that explores those moments of wonder we all encounter. It's called Have You ever Wondered? Consider how ordinary aspects of
life point to the extraordinary biblical truths. Ask for your copy of. Have you ever wondered when you give a gift of any amount to in the market, call eight 7758. That's eight 7758 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall. Doctor Andy Bannister has another fabulous book out. This one's called Have You Ever Wondered? Subtitled Finding the Everyday Clues to Meaning, purpose, and Spirituality. And it's a marvelous book that just helps us with ease. Connect where
people are at because that wondering is there already. I think God fingerprinted it in our heart and what these 28 contributions do in this book is get you to listen to the answers to wondering questions. Now, Andy's not just the co-editor, by the way, but he's a contributor. And so I'm going to talk about some of the pieces that he authored as well. But again, Andy has taught us through the years to how to be very effective as evangelists for Christ and not to be fearful
not to think. You have to have a multiplicity of initials after your name, not to think that somehow that you're going to be rejected. Therefore you're already committing a foul before you even start. The directive is to go and tell that our heart should so break. For those who don't yet know Jesus Christ, that whether or not we suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous criticism, we still go and tell. But Andy has taught us how
to do it. Where people lay down their arms. You disarm people by asking them questions like, what do you wonder about? And then we're going to fill in some of the blanks on some of those things. But before I dive in and I was thinking about this today because you your your forte, you're so much of your academic preparation was dealing in Islamic studies. That's what you actually got your PhD in. What drew you to that?
And it seems to me I can understand the baby step between getting that degree and having a heart for evangelism. But you could have just been in the world of academia and done nothing but teach at college campuses about Islamic studies, but instead you're this wonderfully enthusiastic evangelist. Where's the linkage?
Well, the linkage, uh, Janet was back in the late 1990s. Uh, I got invited, uh, by a friend of mine, uh, up to a place in London, England, called Speaker's Corner, which was part of one of our big parks in London, where you can stand on a ladder or a soapbox, talk about anything. You get a crowd. And he was using it to preach to the many Muslims, uh, who were coming to Speaker's Corner to, to preach Islam. And my friend Jay invited me up to come and watch
what was going on. But when I got up to Speaker's Corner, he produced a second, uh, stepladder to preach on, and I said, why have you got two ladders? He went, well, you're going to stand next to me and preach. And I went, oh, I've never preached on the street before. He went, oh, it's easy anyway. Any fool can do it. I said, I've never, never talked to Muslims before. Oh, they're easy. Any idiot could do it. Well, it turns out, Janet, he was wrong on both counts. Because I failed utterly,
because my new Muslim friends had questions and objections. But I kind of got the bug. And so I went home, sort of my tail between my legs, but started reading and working to get the answers to their questions. Came back two weeks later and they had new questions. So we repeated this exercise. Um, but over the next three
months or so, I would go to Speakers Corner. On the weekends, I would read, uh, what we might now call apologetics books, dealing with with the reasons for the Christian faith, um, and what that did over those 3 to 4 months. And then actually, I stayed for a few more years after I really mastered the kind of subject was. It gave me a love of public proclamation of the gospel, but that was woven in with real conversations.
So I think that was really important to me. I didn't sort of go into academia first and then try and apply it afterwards. The two just went lockstep for me. That eventually led to going to seminary. Um, I hadn't gone to university before I was 28, uh, when I finally kind of went, uh, and then off the back
of that did the PhD. But you're right. When I went in to do the PhD for the first year, Janet, I thought, well, my career path is going to be teaching at a university or a seminary somewhere like that. But I very quickly discovered, you know, I get bored unless I'm applying this stuff. So, um, my, my PhD took me seven years because I couldn't keep my backside on the seat because I was out sort of doing
ministry and stuff. And actually my PhD supervisor, who was brilliant missions background himself, was he's like, Andy, I think you need to think about how you might apply this into actually evangelism and frontline stuff. You know, you're good at the academic stuff, but actually you're going to get really bored very quickly. And he was dead, right. So I now love I love teaching, I do stuff at
universities quite often. I'll do guest lecturing Janet. But my passion is actually engaging people either who think differently Muslims, atheists, skeptics or helping Christians engage them. So yeah, I'm a big believer in how we can take good research and good academic ideas and take it down to a really popular level where people can actually apply it.
I just love that. And forgive me for lingering, but I think I must, because I think this is a conversation not had enough in the church today. Capital C universal. I'm one of those people who grew up where evangelism was just taught, when from the time I came to the Lord and I came to him at six. Growing forward, the evangelism was just part of the air we breathed. We'd walk out of the church and he'd say, you're now entering your mission field. I mean, that was the
way I grew up. But now there seems to be a kind of reticence, at least in the United States. And of course, not all churches. Some are very much mission minded and evangelism minded, but others are not. They're very quiet. They're passive. We'll just love people in, you know, we're going to find all kinds of razzle dazzle ways to get him into the church. And, you know, that'll be a great way to hold their attention. And then
maybe we can start talking to them about Jesus. But hitting the streets, if I can use the phrase that way and sharing it, it's it's it's lackluster now in the United States. Give me the atmospherics in the UK. Is it the same? And if it is, what do we need to revitalize that? Because as I see this, yes, there's a specific gift of evangelism, but all of us are supposed to go and tell. So how do we reinvigorate that?
Yeah, I mean, very similar here in the UK. There's some wonderful churches doing doing great stuff. I mean, I am blessed to go to, to attend a really missional church locally doing wonderful, wonderful stuff. But I think a lot of churches are struggling and I think where they're struggling is Christians are afraid. You know, the big issues and big battles in culture. Same in the US as
in the UK. I think Christians are afraid. What if I try and share my faith at work and I get accused of being transphobic or whatever, and that fear causes them to back down? Often Christians don't know our own faith, so we don't feel really equipped. What if I share my faith and someone asks me a tough question? And then the more challenging one. Sometimes we've adopted this very comfortable Western Christianity, quite frankly, where everything's comfortable, church
is comfortable, everything's comfortable. So don't make it uncomfortable. By having conversations with my colleagues, I just sort of end up privatising my faith. And that can happen quite subtly. What I think can be really helpful is to be thinking about and you mentioned prayer earlier. So important praying about where are the places where God might just gently challenge you or less, more, perhaps more firmly challenge you
to just go slightly beyond your comfort zones. You don't all need to go to Speaker's Corner and stand on a ladder and preach to Muslims. That's the wrong lesson from what I shared. But it might be God is calling you to perhaps just put your head above the parapet at work, or perhaps, you know, invite a neighbour round for a meal and find a way over that to sort of talk about Christ. Maybe it might be loving people and doing some great act of service in
your community. But when people ask why you're doing it, you don't just sort of fluff it. You say, I'm doing it because I want to demonstrate the love of Christ. All of us have our different style of evangelism, but I think going out from the church into the outside has to lie at the heart of it.
Amen and amen. Doctor Andy Bannister is with us. By the way, let me point out again, this dear man is joining us on the other side of the pond from the UK. It's much later at night, and yet I'm so very grateful he stayed up to be with us so we can talk about his newest book. Have you ever wondered finding the everyday clues to meaning, purpose and spirituality? 28 separate little gems in this book that get you thinking about the ways in which God draws
us through our wandering back after this. Doctor Andy Bannister joins us from the UK. Much later at night than it is here in Washington DC, and we're so grateful he's with us because he has another fabulous brand new book, The Core. The heart of this, his passion. It's the fire in his bones, to quote Jeremiah, is really evangelism. And so he's put together, along with several other contributors, a marvelous book called Have You Ever Wondered? Finding the
everyday clues to meaning, purpose, and spirituality. It is a fabulous book, by the way, just to reaffirm how much God loves you and how he left clues everywhere so that you could find him all the while, in truth, he was pursuing you. And for those of you listening who haven't figured out this God thing, who don't know who this Jesus is, let me recommend this book to you.
This would be a wonderful place for you to start, and to look at some of the wonder questions that are put out there, and there are 28 of them for your consideration. Andy is not only the the co-editor of the book, but he's also a contributor. And the rest of his life, when he's not writing and speaking, he's director of Solas, which is a marvelous group. It deals with evangelism and training based in Scotland, but it
covers the entire UK. And you'll know that our dear friend, Doctor David Robertson or David Robertson, who now serves in New South Wales in Australia, joins us on a regular basis where we talk about his perspective on the world around him. So one of the things you did, and you put it as the very first chapter, which I thought was interesting and not by happenstance. You start with the first wonder question. Have you ever wondered why we
long for happiness? And I loved the way you looked at this, that all of us have a kind of appetite for this temporal Satisfaction of whatever it is we hunger for. Talk to me about this because again, you talk about the the universality of the human experience. And
that's what I love, the subtext really, of. Have you ever wondered is these are experiences common to every single one of us, which therefore makes it a marvelous starting point when we're talking to people about the transcendent truths of God.
Well, that's right. And I think the one of the other things we tried to do, Janet, as well, is you don't need to read the book in order, was the other fun thing. So, you know, if you give this to a friend, you can leave through and go, oh,
that intrigues me or that intrigues me. But yeah. So my my first chapter was happiness and I, I was struck by a number of a number of conversations I've had, you know, which boil down to people sort of telling you what it is they're doing to try and be try and be happy, you know, whether they're looking for happiness in their job or their educational, educational career or following their sports team or whatever it is, happiness really is, you know, the universal human pursuit. And then the sort
of stats pick this up. I mean, Google every year, you know, tell us the data. I think they call it the Google zeitgeist on, you know what people searched for that year and questions around happiness always come up really high. People literally put, how can I be happy into Google? And that chapter really explores the fact that firstly, it's intriguing why we're like that. You know, in the animal kingdom, you know, our animal cousins seem to be
quite happy just feeding, fleeing, fighting and reproducing. Um, you know, squirrels don't sit around having existential crises about whether they're happy or not. Um, but then humans, we have this tendency to look for happiness in things that don't quite satisfy us. So we're unusual in the animal kingdom and that sex and food are not enough. They are for most animals. They're not for human beings. We want we want more than that. And if we just try and
make life about those things, those things will let us down. Um, sometimes we try and find happiness and success, you know, whether it's achievement at university or the sports field or at work. But the problem is that's deeply, deeply insecure because eventually somebody will join your sports team, your university or your workplace who performs better than you. Do you know you will hit the top of the roller coaster
and come down the other side. And even if you try and find happiness and things like your family and your kids and those things quite noble pursuits, well, eventually those two come to an end. The kids will grow up and leave home. You know, we have a name for that. We call that the empty nest syndrome. And that chapter just really plays with the idea of going that kind of, sort of pyramid as you work up. Could there be some source of happiness out there that
actually is not going to ultimately let us down? And I think from memory, I come in to land on that. You know that saying of Jesus, I've come that you might have life and have it to the full. And I just wonder, therefore, if that's something that might just be worth thinking about in terms of, you know, that that support for a greater, a greater framework for happiness than just the things in front of us that will
ultimately let us down. So it's, again, a gentle nudge towards the gospel doesn't get you all the way by a long way. But I found, you know, that conversation around happiness is a great conversation for beginning spiritual conversations.
Yes. And, you know, Doctor Francis Schaeffer talked about this years ago. He talked about pre evangelism. He talked about working on the outside of the culture and moving inside. And I think so often we think we just have to go right for the bullseye. But you know it's relational. So start on the outside and it's non-threatening. It's conversational. Um there's a letting down of the guard and you
can start having some of these conversations. What I found is interesting, and I should point out that part of your expertise is also philosophy, not just Islamic studies. So you write about the four levels of happiness that Aristotle writes about, which I thought was fascinating. And I found that number two, which is the comparison about having more,
being better than the next person. I thought, I think I remember something about that written with a pen of fire and a tablet of stone and a mountain somewhere. So this idea of covetousness goes all the way back. But the last landing point, and the one you just alluded to is even Aristotle says, in the end, it's not about you. It's something you're going to have to find outside of yourself.
It's got to be a source outside of yourself. Yeah. That's right. And just a hat tip, by the way, that idea of Aristotle, I got that from a friend of mine in Canada called John Patrick, who was who for years. He's a medic. He told me stories. He would have wonderful conversations with fellow passengers on airplanes, simply by asking them about their life and listening to their life story, and then he'd look at them and smile and say, so, are you happy? And that question would
open up. And then whatever they answered, John would say, did you know that the ancient thinkers, like Aristotle, thought there were actually four levels of happiness? Or people are always going to go, oh, really? What are they? And he was off. So it's a really clever idea, actually, of playing with that word happiness, because I think it's a word that everybody uses, but no one actually knows
what they mean by it. And so again, we can, we can wonder with, with people in a very non-threatening way.
But you kept it beautifully when you go to that verse. And I think we love that verse because it tells us how rich our relationship is with Christ. I've come that you might have life and have it abundantly. So if it's outside of our our selves and Jesus promises an abundant life, and what could make you happier than an abundant life? Well, that life is found in Jesus. So as you say, it isn't doesn't go right for the core, but begins to plant those seeds, which I
think is outstanding. I'm going to examine some more of the wonder questions that Andy raised, but remember, there's a total of 28 in the book. I'm not going to get anywhere near the 28. And that's good, because if it gets you to get a copy of the book, to read it for yourself and wonder, fabulous. Remember, even if you know Christ, great book of encouragement. And if you don't, wonderful place to start. Have you ever wondered
back after this? The questions that matter most often come while watching a sunset, or listening to music, or looking into the night sky. That's why I've chosen. Have you ever wondered, is this month's truth tool? God draws us to himself through a sense of awe and wonder, and this book will help you discover how. As for your copy of have you ever wondered when you give a gift of any amount in the market, call eight 7758. That's eight 7758 or go to in the market with
Janet Parshall. Always, always, always a terrific joy to be able to spend time with. Doctor Andy Bannister joins us from the UK. We're so glad he's with us again. He's got another excellent book. This one is called Have You Ever Wondered finding the everyday clues to meaning, purpose and spirituality. Doctor Bannister is a speaker, a writer, a broadcaster and director of soulless. We're very familiar with soulless
on this program. He's written several books, including The Atheist Who Didn't Exist or The Terrible Consequences of Bad Arguments. And do Muslims and Christians worship the same God coming from a man who has a PhD in Islamic studies?
So in have you ever wondered? There are 28 contributions there wonder questions and they really are the the reminder, if you will, that God does fingerprint us, the Blaise Pascal that resides in the heart of every man, a God shaped void, and only a personal relationship with him will satisfy. So you realize these wonder questions aren't by happenstance. So here's another one. Have you ever wondered, and this
is one of the contributions by Andy. Have you ever wondered why the best stories are about good and evil? You know, that's why fairy tales, many of them, by the way, the classics written by people who were professing Christians because they were morality tales good triumphed over evil. And there's something in her heart that said, that's what we long for. That's what we hope for. That's what we'd like to see. But there's something compelling about these stories.
And if they're stories, is there a war against good and evil in the universe? And if there is, how do I recognize? And on whose side am I mean? It begins to ask a panoply of other questions here. So go I got tears in my eyes because you talked about Dickens, and I thought that that was so very powerful. Um, when you recognize this idea of literally laying down your life for your friend, and stories do have a way of reminding us about good and evil.
So why is it that we resonate? It isn't by happenstance. Somebody didn't say, this is an interesting genre of literature. It looks like it might be successful. It reflects what's already in the human heart. Why is it there?
Well, boy, I love this chapter. Janet's My Fate was my favorite chapter to write because I love I love fairy tales, I love fantasy, I am a massive Tolkien, uh, kind of kind of fan. I, you know, read Lord of the rings every year. And I noticed a few years ago it occurred to me, as I was on my sort of annual read through, of going, it's interesting, isn't it? The stories that have the greatest longevity have this common theme of being about good and evil. So
Tolkien is an obvious one. Um, Harry Potter for more a more recent example. I don't just mean, you know what the latest Hollywood blockbuster is, the stories that are being told and retold and retold and retold fairy tales, uh, you've mentioned and then even, by the way, when you get the dysfunctional stuff like George Orwell's 1984, you're not supposed to celebrate Big Brother winning. You're supposed to get to the end of that and go, that is so depressing.
That's not the way it's supposed to be. And the problem is, of course, if we live in a godless universe, the mystery is, where did we get this idea that good triumphs over evil? Because if there is no God behind this universe. The answer is it doesn't. It's. It's a lie. Ultimately chaos wins. Death has the final word, and everything ends in the heat. Death at the end
of the universe. And the only, you know, the only sort of story that all of us are playing, playing a role in is the story that each, each human being is part of. You know, born, uh, suffered and died. But we don't believe that. So either we're deluded in telling ourselves these stories, or they are a reflection of
a greater reality. And of course, the Tolkien fan in me would say, you know, Tolkien wrote a famous essay on fairy tales in which he makes this point that these stories reflect the greatest story, the true story, and it's reflected and refracted in the little stories that we ourselves tell. So again, you can start from the stories that your friends love and go, hey, why did you enjoy that movie? Well, it was great because the good guy won, the good guys won, the bad guy got
beaten up and dumped and, you know, lost. Why is that? Why do we love those kind of stories? And you can with a bit of practice, connect that to the gospel, or you just give your friend this book right and give them chapter three.
Either way would work just fine.
It would work just fine.
You know, I find it. I love this idea because, uh, you were talking about Tolkien. I'll talk about one of his friends, and that's Lewis. When Lewis talked about the great myth, he was talking about the fact that there is that story. It is the story of good triumphing over evil. So there's something that draws us to that story because we want good to triumph over evil. But let me throw in a name we used earlier as well,
because I love this. Because I think that the aesthetic is one of the paths for us to start on our journey toward God. And certainly the stories are a part of that aesthetic journey. So, um, Francis Shaver talked about the devolution of art and how it was reflected once you moved away from having a biblical worldview and humanism took over, the ideas of good and evil began to dissipate. And now we have this juxtaposition where oftentimes evil triumphs over good. Or there's such a blurred line
of distinction between good and evil. You walked away unsatisfied, but yet it's a hallmark if you take Schafer's perspective on this, and I do that. This is what happens when you've supplanted a biblical worldview with a humanist worldview. It's vacuous in the end, and so you have a hard time distinguishing between good and evil and right and wrong.
Yeah, I think you do. But I think where I'd go slightly further than Schafer. Schafer was a huge influence on me as a as a young Christian. So I'm glad you're also a fan. Um, but I think actually people rebel. I think you've seen this in things like cinema, you know, movies that have tried to really just rip everything up and celebrate the, the, you know, nasty stuff and downplay the heroic or deconstruct heroes, um, have done badly. I mean, look at the look at the the the
ticket returns on the Star Wars movies. You know, once they start deconstructing their heroes, fans kind of walk away. And a couple of years ago, you know, um, when I noticed when you had, you know, Tom Cruise's, you know, remake of Top Gun. You know, Top Gun Maverick, that thing cleaned up at the cinema because I think audience was like, yes, a movie with a hero and a clear moral framework, and there's good and there's evil. So
I think actually, um, yeah, Schafer was absolutely right. But I think he missed the fact or could have made the point that I think people rebel and go, no, we don't want these stories. Thank you very much. Yeah. People are looking are desperately looking for meaning and that. And then you end up with this strange sort of disconnect, I think, between perhaps the literati and the artistic culture and the ordinary people. Yeah. Which is going on. But yeah,
I don't think you I don't think you can escape it. Um, and by the way, you mentioned Louis, one of the fun things, of course, is, you know, um, is that Tolkien, of course, was instrumental in leading Louis to faith. And one of Lewis's stumbling blocks was the gospel looked like a myth. And it was it was talking to help him see. No, no, you're missing the fact that it's
a true myth. This story has mythic qualities to it, with the difference that it actually happened, and all those other myths that you love are actually refractions and reflections of the one true story. When that light bulb moment went on for Lewis, that was when he became a Christian. On that famous walk along the river in Oxford with Tolkien and Hugo Dyson.
I'll tell you again the power of a story. And you know, I jumped the gun because I talked about A Tale of Two Cities, and maybe.
Because in my mind.
I thought, wait a minute, there is good and evil in there. But really, this goes to the wonder question you posited about why do we hate selfishness and admire altruism? And to the biggest skeptic, you know, grumpy old person out there who might be listening, why do we get tears in our eyes when we watch stories of people who sacrifice for someone else, who do what's good, even
if it's going to cost them everything? And so here's where you bring in Dickens, and you talked about A Christmas Carol, and you talk about A Tale of Two Cities. I thought it was brilliant the way you did this. Share this with our friends.
Well of course, uh, yes. I mean, Christmas Carol. I, as I say, the definitive version being, of course, The Muppet Christmas Carol. and my kids love. It's a great way into Dickens and what I start by making the point in that classic story. Whether you've read it or seen a sophisticated version or you've watched the Muppet version. Um, we that story works because Dickens was able to assume that, you know, that Scrooge is not the hero. You're not
supposed to sit there going, yes, Scrooge is fantastic. He's wonderful. Um, and you're not supposed to be disappointed when he becomes he discovers a heart and compassion at the end. You're supposed to go on that journey with him and go, that's fantastic! He's gone from being a selfish, grumpy old man to somebody now who is, you know, returned to the human race, and you're supposed to cheer that? Dickens could assume that. But why could he assume that? Why
assume that altruism is a good thing? Why not every man or woman for himself? That's the case in nature. Uh, most of the time. Where do we get this idea from that sacrificing for others is a is a good thing. And then I bring that other Dickens, uh, story, and I bring in A Tale of Two Cities, which has this amazing sacrifice at, uh, At the heart of it. When you've got Charles Darnay and Sydney Carton, who looks,
you know, they look almost identical. Charles gets arrested during the French Revolution and, uh, is facing the capital punishment. Sydney visits him in prison. Uh, has him drugged and smuggled out, takes his place, dies for him. Uh. Incredible story. I mean, I've hardly done justice summarizing it in 30s. Um, but just this amazing story of the gospel story retold in through that Dickens tale. Exactly. Um, and basically the point I make is, I think the reason we love
stories of self-sacrifice is, again, it's the same idea. Janet. It's the reflection of the of the one true story. We all know that the greatest form of love is self-sacrifice, which, by the way, gets you not just to what kind of God you know. Is there a God? But what
kind of God? Because the God of the Koran is not a God who laid down his life or paid a price for us, but the God of the Bible is a God who it says in the book of Romans, you know, loved us so much that even while we were still sinners, while we were still his enemies, He gave his life for us. And so that story of Sydney giving his life for Charles is the story of each one of us, uh, through what God has done for us in Christ.
Exactly. In the book, you do a beautiful job. And by the way, if you have if you don't want to read the book and you should, it's wonderful. It's a classic. You can watch the movie with Ronald Colman, um, black and white classic. And that's just unbelievably powerful. But you talk about the young seamstress who's also condemned to speak, and she turns to Sydney and she said, are you dying for him? And he responds, and his wife and
his child. Shh. And I got tears in my eyes when I read that because I thought, you know, this is what some people call the shadow of Christ, right? Where he makes these appearances in literature and art. And if we're paying attention, by the way, as believers, it's a great pick up point to be able to say, did you see that movie? Did you read that book? Did you get this? What did you think about that?
Because Christ is there making an appearance, although sometimes not fully defined, fully pixelated, if I can use modern terms, but the presence is there and it's a good place to start. And that's exactly what you point out in this idea of why do we hate selfishness and admire altruism? So friends, are you getting the drift? Do you see these wonder questions? And this is why, again, the core
of this is really evangelism. Not to be afraid. Meet people where they're at, knowing that universally in the human condition, we have all of us these wonder conditions. And in the book, have you ever wondered, there are 28 little wonder questions for us to think about. So you read it. Give it to somebody who doesn't yet know the Lord. Somebody listening right now. If you don't know Christ, if you don't know this God and His Son Jesus, I encourage you to pick up a copy of Have You
Ever Wondered? It's right there on my information page at In the Market with Janet Parshall back after this. By the way, if you want to learn more about Doctor Andy Bannister, I have a link to his website on our information page Andy Banister, Andy Banister and also the new book of the many that Andy has written is called Have You Ever Wondered finding the everyday clues to meaning, purpose and spirituality? The corn will say it again is
really evangelism 28 Little Gems. And that's what I think they are asking a wonder question that gently points us to God. A non-threatening way to get people to start thinking about something bigger than themselves, some one bigger than themselves. And one of the wonder questions. And this is an excellent one. And Andy, I'm so glad you contributed this one to the book, is have you ever wondered if
all religions are basically the same? As I noted at the start of our conversation, you got your PhD in Islamic studies, so it would be very easy to say, okay, it's comparative theology. What is the distinction about Christianity from all? If I were going down the elevator 30s what's the distinctive for Christianity from all other religions?
Well, what I would say, Janet, is the question that people often ask. They often approach the question this way. Do all religions lead to God? And I would say the distinction in Christianity is that no other religion even claims to lead to God. You know, Buddhism claims to lead you to sort of absorption into the cosmic whateverness.
Atheism leads you to death and extinction. Uh, Islam, which is the one people often think, actually, that claims to lead you to Paradise, uh, which is a place where there's rivers of wine, wonderful, uh, fruit trees, food and, uh, women for the men to enjoy in the hereafter. But Christianity, on the other hand, the promise, if it offers out, is a relationship with God walking and talking with him as it was in the beginning, before the world went wrong,
when sin entered into eternity. So actually, it is only Christianity that claims to be able to lead us to God in the first place. And by the way, it's not so much leading us to God as God coming to us in Christ. That's where I would start. Much more to be said, but that's where I'd begin.
You do something else, which I thought was brilliant. You said that you can divide the world's religions into three groups. Thinking. Feeling. Doing. Explain that to our friends.
That's right. So if you try and one of the big challenges, Janet, is what the word religion means. Um, it's a very slippery term because people often say what it means belief in God. Well, actually, traditional Buddhism doesn't believe in God. So if you try and divide religion up and explain it in other kind of ways, anthropologists, sociologists and so forth have come up with this sort of grid, actually. So this is not unique to me. So you can basically divide the world's religions, as you say,
into those based on thinking Buddhism, classic example. You master the right teachings, you learn the right truths, and you can get to a, you know, a nirvana, wisdom, a higher state of living. Other religions go the experience route. Lots of eastern religions go this way, have the right mystical experience, and you can somehow connect with the divine. You know, whatever it is you're looking for. And then other religions go the action route. The doing route. Here
are a set of commands and instructions. Follow those. Do those things and you can gain blessing, uh, you know, whatever. And work your way upwards to the divine. And you can pretty much divide the world's religions into those three groups. The one exception again. And in the chapter, I just play with the idea that it's interesting that Christianity doesn't really fit because Christianity is not a set of teachings brought by Jesus, although he said some amazing things. That's
not primarily what it is. It's a it's not primarily a set of experiences. Although knowing Jesus can be amazing and it's not a set of commandments and moral and nor a moral code, although it will change how you live if you truly believe it. What is at the heart of Christianity? It is in fact, Jesus. Christianity is all about him and his personality. As somebody once remarked, Take Christ out of Christian and you're left with three
letters I, A, and N, and Ian cannot help you. Um, and it's that it's that person centered nature, which also is interesting because Christianity stands or falls, I would say, on the person of Jesus. You know, Jesus looks at each one of us and says, who do you say that I am? And all of us ultimately are forced to face the question. Okay, do I believe him? Am I going to dismiss him, ignore him, write him off as a lunatic or a liar or any of those things? Lewis, C.S.
Lewis's classic, you know, lunatic, liar or Lord, really? What it comes back to Jesus is the one that comes back to. And that's a great way to get people thinking. I think about the truth claims of Christianity rather than some sort of disconnected set of truths. Let's take a look at Jesus.
So let me build on this if I can. And I don't want to say it too simplistically, but is would you say when you look at all the other religions in the world, is Christianity the only one that is person centered? I know there's gods in Hinduism, and I know that there's Muhammad in Islam, but they none of them seem to make the. And this is a rhetorical question, but none of them seem to make the
kind of declarative statements that Jesus did. None of them seem to touch and bend down and assimilate like the others. So is the distinctive the person?
Yes, very much so. And I think one of the things you can say to a friend if you're talking about other religions and so on. You can say if somebody takes offense at you, you know, making Jesus unique, you can gently say, Janet, okay, can you bring somebody I can compare him to? Can you show me somebody else who made the claims that he did, who taught the way that he did, who who made the exalted sort of claims about his own person, uh, that he
did claim to be equal to God. Being able to forgive sins, putting himself on a par with, uh, you know, with the, uh, with the temple and so on and so forth. Because I don't think there's even another competitor on the table, which is interesting. Um, you know, Muhammad, uh, whatever we make of him, um, didn't make those kind of claims. He claimed to be just a Warner, just a teacher of revealed truths that had been revealed to him through the angel Gabriel. He didn't claim anything like
what Jesus did. And this is why, by the way, I mentioned a moment ago. That's why C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity makes that famous challenge. You are faced as you look at the claims that Jesus made, you really are forced to conclude either this guy was a self-aggrandizing liar. Um, he was completely Stark staring mad, or you are forced to. The third possibility that actually the claims that he made
were true. And then you add, of course, the resurrection vindicating that, and you're left with something quite compelling.
Exactly. Andy, in an audience our size, you know that there are people listening right now who have not yet answered the question, who is this Jesus? You conclude by giving people several suggested steps on their spiritual journey. Share a few of them with us as we close.
Yeah. So at the end of the very last chapter, Janet, I suggest, where do you go from here? So the first thing I'd say would say, try praying. Try praying. Look, God, I'm not sure what I think about you. I don't even know if I believe in you, but if you are real, would you show yourself to me? Would you guide me towards you? Praying is a good thing. If you've never sat down and read one of the gospels, we just talked about Jesus. Well, read Mark's Gospel over
an evening or two. Or, if you're not a reader listening to an audiobook, talk to the friend who gave you. Have you ever wondered if you end up with one and perhaps go to church? Then one Sunday? You know, church is not as bad as some of the things you may have heard. Lots of Christians are quite normal. Um, and um, and then fourthly, begin reading and studying a little bit further. You know, I think Christianity is so potentially important. If it's true, it's worth investing the time
to see whether it's true. You don't lose much by giving it the time to consider it properly.
In fact, you conclude the book with a great question. Have you ever wondered if it's time to finally explore where they're pointing? The book is called Have You Ever wondered finding everyday clues to meaning, purpose, and spirituality? 28 Little Wonder questions that are asked. Excellent for you who already know Jesus. Just the confirmation of how much he
loves you and pursued you. In truth, for those of you who haven't answered the God question or who is Jesus Lord, lunatic or liar, this might be a great place for you to start, so I strongly recommend to you. Have you ever wondered Doctor Andy Bannister, another fabulous conversation. My deepest thanks. Thank you friends. We'll see you next time.