Hour 2: Dangerous Liaison

about God? And are you not in a moment of awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man, that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you

wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have this sense of awe through the work that they do. In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse

because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you to walk through the chapters written by people who all have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount, just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask for a copy of Have You Ever Wondered? And we'll send it right off to you as my way of

saying thank you, because we are listener supported radio. Or you can go online to in the market with Janet Parshall. When you're also on the website, consider becoming a partial partner. Those are people who give every single month at a level of their own choosing. You always get the truth tool, but in addition to that, you get a weekly newsletter that includes my writing and an audio piece just for

my partial partners. So 877 Janet 58 or the website in the market with Janet parshall.org consider becoming a partial partner or asking for this month's truth tool. Have you ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast.

any question you've got on the topic of narcissism. Now, let me just say a couple of opening remarks before I bring in my sweet friend Laurel Slade Wagner. I got to tell you, this is this is insidious. You know, I'm going to give you a movie reference. This is how my Mickey Mouse mind works. Remember the movie with Charlton Heston and the Ten Commandments? How was the Angel of death portrayed? Right. It's this green fog that works

its way through the streets. Right? And it passes by the house where the blood has been spread over the top of the lintel. The framework of the door and the angel of death passed by. That's why it's called Passover. And it's really this brilliant Cecil B DeMille way of showing death, this green smoke that slithers under the front door. That's narcissism in my world. It slithers into somebody's life

without them knowing it. It's not like a Pixar cartoon with a one man band coming, and he's playing, you know, drums, and he's blowing a harmonica, and he's got a trumpet that he plays and all of this at the same time. And oh, here comes the brass band. Oh, it's anything but. It is subtlety, its smoothness, its sophistication, its suave Ebola. It's getting the skin off a snake before you even

know you've been skinned. It's terrible. It's absolutely an awful sinful condition, and it causes abuse and it causes pain and it causes drama, and it brings about generational impact. It's not to be trifled with. And so we're going to talk about it because first of all, if you pay any attention at all, we live in a world that's just growing, almost like in a lab somewhere. We're

growing narcissists. I'm an influencer. I'm going to show you how I can put my eye makeup on, or I'm going to show you my cats because my cat's the most important thing in the world, and you need to see it on that thing. That sounds like a breath mint. I'm not even going to give them free publicity. The bottom line is now, when you're an influencer, by the way, did they vote somewhere? Did they give you that title because you won it somewhere? It's a self subscribed term

I am influencing you. Tell me that doesn't smack of narcissism. So there's clearly an uptick of what's going on in our culture because there's so much self-aggrandizement. Give somebody a computer or a smartphone and man, the next thing you know, you got millions of followers. Ipso facto, you must be important because our worth is found in how many thumbs up you get, how many likes, how many reposts you get. Ooh, dangerous, challenging,

interesting times. But it's really given rise to even more narcissists. And the problem is they don't show up in a uniform. Okay? They come in and they can be subtle and they can love bomb you, and they can be the deacons in the church, and they just seem all the most wonderful person in the world. And you get home and the mask comes off and then the abuse begins. But you don't show up in the pastor's office with a black eye or a broken arm, but you have wounds

in the heart that are absolutely unbearable. And you keep thinking to yourself, I want to honor the Lord. I want to do what's right, but you're being continually abused, gaslit, triangulated, you name it. All of these fancy words that come out of the DSM and Psychology Today that are really manipulations to control another human being. And what happens to the victim? Well, they just think there's something wrong with them.

Maybe if I just changed, maybe things would improve. Then God brings up people like Laurel who can say, I've been there, raised by narcissistic parents. My first husband was a narcissist. I can tell you the impact it has on our children, and I can tell you the damage that it's done. But in the meantime, she goes along and she gets a bunch of initials after her name becomes a board certified professional Christian counselor, a licensed mental

health counselor, a licensed marriage and family therapist. She's been in Florida having a private practice for nigh on two decades. She writes books on the topic. She does a podcast called help! I have a narcissist in my life, and she's getting calls from all over the country for people who are dealing with exactly what I just described. Hence the reason the phone light up every time Laurel comes. You need that number again? I thought so. 87754836758775483675. Any question?

You've got the two books that Laurel has written are called Don't Let Their Crazy Make You Crazy. Subtitle. How to Stay Sane and Strong. When the narcissist in your life is trying to control or abuse you, I got all my info page. Uh, the second book is called uh. Don't let Their crazy Make your kids crazy how to shield your children from their narcissistic parents control and manipulation. And again, the free podcast is called help! I have

a narcissist in my life. And if you want to go deeper professionally, privately, I have a link to Laurel's website. You can set that up and do it in a personal, private, professional vein rather than just asking a question on there. So all of that's there for you. Resource. We're pretty serious about this topic because you know what? Spring cleaning. Well, sometimes you do spring cleaning even in mid-summer. And we're lifting up the shades. We're turning back the carpet. The

cockroaches are going to come out. We're going to do some housekeeping. So, Laurel, I made a statement and I want to see from your vantage point as a clinician, as a counselor, if, in fact, culturally, we're not having, um, almost harvesting farms full of narcissists. Uh, part of that is where we are as we're moving forward to Jesus's imminent return. Part of that is lovers of self. Part of that is taking Christ out of the equation. So who's going to sit on the throne of your life,

but you as the influencer? And then all of these things are coupled together, and then you've got the fact that for the longest period of time we said in the church, oh, it's just selfishness. Give me your reaction to this.

behind closed doors there's somebody very, very different. And our culture is feeding that sense of entitlement, feeding that, that need to be treated as if you're special. And so it is. It's just I think it's getting so much worse. And and it's just the victims. They really just don't

have anywhere to go. The church is supposed to be a safe place, but a lot of my clients, they get marginalized even within the church because they don't have those bruises, or they don't have somebody that's addicted or somebody that is repetitively cheating on them. Um, so those victims, they they get marginalized, they get disregarded within the church. And so I'm just so thankful that that you're giving them a voice and victims can call in and and get some wisdom.

our guest for the entire hour. She's so precious and the gift of her time just gives and gives and gives. And it's our topic for the entire hour. But you lead it. You get to ask the questions. She'll give the answer. 75483675. We'll take your calls right after this. Have you ever wondered why music moves us so deeply? Or why beauty takes our breath away? My Truth Tool this month is a thought provoking book that explores those moments of wonder we all encounter. It's called. Have You

ever Wondered? Consider how ordinary aspects of life point to the extraordinary biblical truths. Ask for your copy of. Have you ever wondered when you give a gift of any amount to in the market, call eight 7758, that's eight 7758 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall. Laurel Slade Wagner is with us. Our topic is narcissism. And we are taking your calls at 87754836758775483675. Sherry, I'm going to start with you in Florida. Thanks for stopping by. Your question please. Sherry you are.

left and right and physical problems. So you kind of discount things. You think, oh, maybe the pain or this or that, because you could literally see color him turning beet red at times from pain. So I assumed it was pain. I never thought about narcissism come to turn out. It was in fact, a narcissist. Um, he began to borrow everything I had, inheritances, um, my clothing and things disappeared. I went home for my father's birthday in 2019, and, uh,

came home and, um, everything was different. It was like a different person in our home. I began getting worried. People, my friends were telling me, stay away from the balcony. We lived on the second floor on the beach, um, in a condo. They didn't know each other, my two friends. But we'd been friends since seventh grade, and they both told me they were afraid he was going to throw me off the balcony and try to do me in

because of the things he'd been doing. He started, um, driving at night when we would go out to dinner with people 95 miles an hour after dinner after we dropped them off.

they're not going to show their real colors. So narcissists learn how to get better at being narcissistic over time so they know what people respond to positively. They know what kinds of manipulation works for them. And so they gather all of this information, and it helps them to become more and more narcissistic and better at hiding that narcissism in the beginning. So they'll love Bomb you. Then after you've been with them over a period of time,

then they'll start to reveal their true character. And so that's exactly what you experienced. And so there is I there's a lot of healing to do if you want to make sure that you don't repeat history. You self-reflect, you pray to God you that those search me and know me Lord. Um, you figure out, okay, so why in the world was I picking somebody narcissistic? There's lots

of different reasons. Sometimes people are raised in really loving, stable, um, Christ centered homes, and it's just not part of their upbringing. They're just not even really aware that it's out there. And so they get blindsided. They get mesmerized by someone who is very charming and successful. So they just don't understand. That's why really, at the heart of my ministry, I want to help people understand what Matthew 1016, I think it's Matthew 1016 talks about is we need to be

innocent as doves and shrewd as serpents. We need to understand Stand a biblical foolishness and wicked behavior. All those things that God talks about, we call modern day narcissism. And so you self-reflect. You learn why you picked. Pick somebody who's narcissistic. Another reason is this is my reality is I grew up in narcissism. So what was familiar to me, I thought was attraction, but it's actually called

repetition compulsion. I wasn't really attracted to it as much as I felt comfortable around it, because it was familiar to me. And then also, this is my reality, part of my own brokenness. I'm very shy, introverted person, and so I was attracted to those grandiose, very super successful narcissists because I could be an extension of them. I could laugh at all their jokes. I didn't have to grow out of my shy shell. So, um, so my

woundedness contributed to it. So you can work with a really good Christian counselor who specializes in trauma recovery, and that person can help you kind of go through your life story and figure out what led to this. And then I say, you have to do a lot of learning about healthy relationship dynamics and see what a narcissist, what something that narcissists do. They cannot tolerate being out

of control. They cannot tolerate being told no. So I, I tell people when you're exploring new friendships or you're dating, um, say something that is a no to them very early on, see how they handle your no. Do they try to talk you out of your. No. Do they accept it, understand where you're coming from and and really want the best for you? Um, you'll start to see you'll grow

these narcissistic antennas. I call them, where you're just able to spot those unhealthy dynamics and those, um, lack of mutuality that are present in a healthy relationship, that mutual respect, that mutual honesty, that mutual effort, um, and mutual ability to repent. Say sorry. Genuinely say sorry. Change behavior, and move forward for the good of everyone in the relationship and for the good of the relationship. So I don't want people to think, if you've had a narcissist in

your life, that you're doomed to keep picking them. We're not with with God's grace and forgiveness and God's people and just all of the information that's out there and how God wants us to interact with each other. You won't fill your life with narcissists anymore.

find your podcast. You can download that and that's a great resource for you. A couple of books that she's written. Excellent. All of that's on the information page. Go to in the market with Janet Parshall. Red box right under the hours description. Click it on takes you to the info page. More of your calls right after this. Board certified Christian counselor Laurel Slade Wagner is with us particular emphasis on narcissism, not just this hour, but in her practice. She does

a fabulous job of comforting. People have really been wounded by this abusive personality disorder. (877) 548-3675. Brenda, you've been in Ohio. I so appreciate your patience and I'd love your question, please.

recognize my authority. I mean, I'm her boss, but she doesn't recognize it. I, I don't know. I'm not sure how to deal with her that.

employer and it sounds like you're also her landlord. So it sounds like you have different positions of authority. So you can let her know that you you care for her very deeply. You want to help her, but you can no longer invest more than she's investing in herself. And so laying out, I call it a Joshua 2415 plan of change because Joshua 2415 says, if serving the Lord is undesirable to you, you are free to choose what God you serve, whether it's the gods of your

ancestors or the gods of the living land. But as for me and my household, I'm going to serve the Lord. And so that's where you want to make sure that you're you're loving her and you're giving her opportunity to invest in herself and get back on her feet. But you're not going to enable her to stay stagnant and to to not become what God wants her to become. We're we're called to carry our own loads in the Bible. And so you're you're helping her move toward that by

setting these boundaries and getting her on a move out plan. Um, helping her launch back into being self-sufficient. That's the most loving thing that you can do for her. Instead of continuing to support her, especially if she's saying just disrespectful things behind your back, and she doesn't recognize the fact that you are in a position of authority. So you have these dual relationships with her, and so you have to invite her into this plan of change. Give her

her free will. If she doesn't want to work that plan of change, then you're going to have to figure out how you're going to part ways, um, even sooner than you anticipated. And and just so that, you know, that is so loving, that is loving her like God loves all of us and giving her the best shot of becoming what God wants her to be.

more about him than Christ. Um, what can we do to help the church understand that this can be a severe problem in narcissistic?

sitting in some way? Churches need a system. They need some kind of organizational organizational structure so they can utilize that that beautiful process. Scripture in Matthew 1815 through 17 that says, if your brother sins against you, go and work it out between the two of you. If they will not listen, then you bring the witnesses. They still won't listen. Then you bring it to the church or

the leadership board and they still won't listen. Then you treat them like a pagan or a tax collector, which means you part ways. Um, so I would love, I would encourage all churches to set up systems of checks and balances where one person doesn't have all that decision making power. So find find some people within the church, get a board going. There's we've just got to take the power out of one person's hands. I would say that's the biggest thing.

from a woman who really knows this. Don't forget. Also have a direct link to her website if you want to talk to her privately and professionally and go much deeper with your personal situation. You can do that through the website which sits right there on our information page. This is in the market with Janet Parshall. More with Laurel right after this. How do you keep your finger on the pulse of America while listening to the heartbeat

of God's Word? On in the market, we look for God's perspective on current events, become a partial partner today, and keep this Christ centered program on the air. As a benefit, you'll receive exclusive resources every week prepared just for you. You'll get behind the scenes Intel from my email to yours. Call 877 Janet, 58, or go online to in the market with Janet Dot org. If you're just joining us, the warmest of welcomes and because of

the modern technology, you didn't miss a thing. Just go to your favorite podcast site and download in the market with Janet Parshall. Pick today's date and our conversation with Laurel Slade Wagner and our topic, narcissism. Laurel, of course, is a board certified Professional Christian counselor, a licensed marriage and health family health counselor, a licensed marriage and family therapist.

Been in Florida close to two decades. Private practice. I've got a link to her website on the information page. If you want to talk privately and professionally with her, you can set that up a couple of books I want to point out. Don't let their crazy make you crazy. How to stay sane and strong. When the narcissists in your life is trying to control or abuse you. Linked on my info page. And also don't let their crazy make your kids crazy. How to shield your children from

their narcissistic parents control and manipulation. And don't forget, she also has a great free podcast called help! I have a narcissist in my life. 483675. That is our number. (877) 548-3675. And as is always the case. Which is why Laurel and I are going to keep going. Every line is lit. So be patient when you hear me say goodbye. The line opens up, but calling quick because they're being replaced immediately. You have been so patient in Illinois, Rob. I appreciate

it more than you can know. Welcome to the conversation in your question, please.

of brothers that can walk through this with you. Um, a good book to read is I don't know if you've heard of Dallas Willard, but he has a fabulous book called renovation of the heart. And so that book can kind of walk you through what, um, a person of, of godly character is. So that's a really good read. It's a hard read, but it's a it's well worth it. Um,

there's all kinds of, of organizations. Um, there's you can get into a Bible study at a church, there's organizations, um, like Trace Diaz or Walk to Emmaus, where you can develop a really, really solid band of brothers to do life with and to hold each other accountable for these changes that you want to make. I encourage you, um, if to do moral inventories and to people you, uh, God brings to mind that you hurt. Write them letters of apology. Take ownership. Um, make amends. Show them how

you've changed. Be non-defensive. Uh, moving forward. Show them how they can trust you again. Be patient if that takes a really long time. Um, just all of these different things to to keep this, uh, to build fruit in keeping with repentance like the Bible talks about.

Even to, um, the point of this person has affected our friend and family, so much so that they're contemplating suicide.

that person. And so she. This happens quite a bit. She becomes paralyzed, and then all the people around her love her, and they can't stand to see her continue to allow herself to get abused. So, um, you've been very patient. You've been resourcing of her, you've been giving her love. So she needs to understand that there are healthy relationships out there. She needs to learn about what

those are. She needs to understand that she's precious and she was not created to be treated this way, and she needs to understand that she's been emotionally conditioned to stay in this position of paralysis, and so that it's very common. And she needs help. And this is where this tough love is going to be really hard to do. But you love her too much to see her, um, stay stuck. Of course. If, if, if she is suicidal, um,

you could do a well check. So if she says that she's suicidal or she says she doesn't want to live anymore, you take her at her word and you have, you can call the emergency police and say, I just want you to check on this person. She's articulated that, you know, she might be suicidal, and they'll go do a well check and just let her know that you love her too much, that if you hear those words from her, you're going to make sure that she gets some help. Um, every time that she says that. So

sometimes people say that just out of exasperation. They're Exasperation. They're not truly suicidal. They're just they just can't see a way out of their pain. Um, so that's suicide, what they call suicidal ideation. She just doesn't want to be in her pain anymore. She doesn't necessarily want to kill herself, but she she just doesn't see a way out of her pain. Whatever it is, she needs to know that you're serious about getting her the help that

she needs. And then if she won't help herself. That's where you say we. We love you too much. There's so many resources we've given you. There's Celebrate Recovery, where you can, um, be with other sisters in Christ who are going through what you're going through. Here's all these readings about healthy relationships. Here's all these readings about narcissism.

Here's all these readings about abuse and counselors names. If you have resources or you've done everything, and that's where you're going to have to step back and say, we this is just too painful for us to watch you, not help yourself. We love you too much. Um, and that might encourage her. Like, wow, okay, they love me so much that they're they're willing to take a step back just so that I would be okay. And, um, and then pray and pray and pray that she gets connected.

So if it's something to do with a lack of affect and, and not really having those intense feelings when someone is, um, very abrasive toward you or shows you a lack of empathy. This is just an example. I don't know what you're struggling with, but let's say you're struggling with the lack of affect, and and you don't really feel that abrasion or you don't really feel that offense when someone offends you, then you have to do a lot of studying on a lack of empathy and

how that presents and what that does to people. And so you start to learn from the outside in whatever you're struggling with that you don't have from the inside out, and you work with a professional counselor that can help you get through all of that so that you do not knit yourself together again with another narcissist. I praise the Lord like I did with the other caller, that God set you free from that abusive relationship with that covert narcissist. And like I was saying, you are not alone.

That covert narcissism, it is so toxic and people suffer so much and for so long behind closed doors, especially within the church.

Click that on. It'll take it over to the information page. There's a longer bio for Laurel, a link to her website again for your use, so that if you want to talk to her privately and professionally, you can set it up right through that website. On the right hand side, there's the two books we've been talking about. And in addition, don't forget she has a podcast entitled simply help! I have a narcissist in my life. You can find that

wherever you go to find your podcast. So let me take this break, come right back to the phones and we'll get more answers from Laurel right after this. Certified Christian Counselor Laurel Slade Wagner is our guest as she is monthly. As we take on this topic of narcissism. And if you could see my screen, every single line is lit, which says that I think we're tapping into some pain. Pain that's not often articulated. You don't know where to go to get answers. And boy, what a

safe place. If you've got a wonderful, compassionate, tender Christian counselor in Laurel and she does a marvelous job of not only offering resources, but gentle counsel as well, always, always bathes in Scripture. Connie, thank you so much for your patience in California. Your question please.

had to let her know my boundary limits. That she cannot disrespect me down to my core like she did by insulting what I believe in in Jesus Christ and letting her know that I am her mother and not somebody that she can mistreat.

same way that you are. And so I'm so glad to hear you say that. You set the boundaries and you have to grieve. You have to grieve the loss of who you want her to be. You have to grieve the loss of of who she is. That's, um, not what God wants her to be. And so you have to allow yourself to do all this grieving and get to that place of acceptance. Like, okay, this is who my daughter is at this point. Um, I raised her up in the way in the Lord, and I'm

going to keep praying for her. And then you can set up some prayerfully. Just pray through set up some structure of, okay, I'm going to reach out, um, every so often in this safe way to see if things are different and to see if she's willing to work on things. So for now, since you gave her that information, that you're not going to let her treat her with disrespect, then just prayerfully set up a structure. So, okay, how

am I going to reach out? Maybe send her a text, um, send her something of interest that she likes if she answers back with any kind of disrespect or condemnation. Or if she doesn't answer you, then you say, okay, Lord, thank you for revealing her character and where she is currently and I'm just going to connect through her, connect with her through prayer for now. And then you try again. You know, maybe a month from now or three months, um, you can also let her know what you're doing. You

can say, I'm going to reach out blank. I'm going to reach out, uh, once a month, or I'm going to reach out once a quarter. Whatever you decide on and you you are revealing your character to her that way, whether she likes it or not. So if you reveal, hey, I'm going to do this, and then you're a woman of follow through and you follow through on what you told her you're going to do. Your character of integrity

is going to shine through. And so it's going to impact her whether she acknowledges it to you or not right now. And so that's that's what all you can do. Um, from that standpoint, don't get into any divisive arguments with her. Don't, um, discredit her father. She is under his spell, and for whatever reason, she doesn't want to separate from him. She doesn't see his toxic traits. And so, um, you just pray that she does that. God reveals his true core

identity to her, and she recognizes it. And at the same time, you're building that trust and you're revealing your own character. And I just I believe so wholeheartedly that we are all hardwired to desire what God has to give. And so just being someone who exudes the the fruit of the spirit and, and Christ's love, and that Christ's love sometimes is full of boundaries, um, and consistency. So I, I think she'll recognize Christ whether she wants to accept

it right now or not. But I think those are the most powerful things you can do.

in writing. Um, you outline your needs in that plan of change, you invite him into this and then give him his free will. And if he doesn't, then that's where you start using that redemptive tool of separation. And it's not a punishment. The redemptive tool of separation is to give him time and space so that he can think about what you were saying and what your needs are, and how to respond to those in a loving way. So utilizing that redemptive tool of separation is all biblical.

It's all based on Matthew 1815 through 17 and in. You're truly inviting him into a different way of life, but you're not going to sit and let him continue to abuse you any longer, because he's not really moving

toward God that way. He's not moving toward becoming who God wants him to become, and nor can you, because you're constantly having to pick yourself up from all those abusive interactions and and you just can't focus on your relationship with the God or the healthy other people in your life if you're continuing to let him abuse you. So I hope that helps, Sarah.

that God has a plan for your welfare. And so I really appreciate your calling in and love the way that with tenderness, Laurel Slade Wagner just keeps counseling you as you walk through this. You are not alone. So in the meantime, read her books. They're both there on the website if you want to talk to her privately and professionally, work that through the link to her direct website for her practice in Florida as well. I thank you, Laurel,

so much from the bottom of my heart. And you, friends, we'll see you next time on In the Market with Janet Parshall.