Best of In The Market with Janet Parshall:What Do Muslims Think About Jesus? - podcast episode cover

Best of In The Market with Janet Parshall:What Do Muslims Think About Jesus?

Jun 14, 202546 min
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Episode description

Muslims love Jesus—but do they know who He really is? Abdu Murray will join us to explore the Islamic view of Jesus, known to Muslims as “Isa.” What does the Qur’an say about Him? Is He just a prophet, or something more? And how do Islamic beliefs about Jesus at the end of time—His return, His role in judgment—compare with what the Bible reveals? Abdu draws from his background as a former Muslim and Christian apologist to explain what Islam gets right about Jesus, what it leaves out, and why the differences aren’t minor—they’re eternal.

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Transcript

S1

Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens, and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas. But before you go, I want to tell you about this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered? And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me, going out into the night sky and looking up and seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think

about God? And are you not in a moment of awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man, that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you

wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have this sense of awe through the work that they do. In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse

because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you to walk through the chapters written by people who all have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount, just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask for a copy of Have You Ever Wondered? And we'll send it right off to you as my way of

saying thank you, because we are listener supported radio. Or you can go online to in the market with Janet Parshall. When you're also on the website, consider becoming a partial partner. Those are people who give every single month at a level of their own choosing. You always get the truth tool, but in addition to that, you get a weekly newsletter that includes my writing and an audio piece just for

my partial partner. So 877 Janet 58 or the website in the market with Janet parshall.org consider becoming a partial partner or asking for this month's truth tool. Have you ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast. Hi, friends. This is Janet Parshall, and I want to welcome you to the best of. In the market, today's program is prerecorded so our phone lines are not open. But I do hope you'll enjoy today's edition of The Best of In the Market with Janet Parshall.

S2

Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.

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The conference was over. The president won a pledge.

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Americans worshiping government over God.

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Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.

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The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.

S1

Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Thank you for spending the hour with us. Okay. We're going to do some comparative theology. Wait. Come back. Don't run screaming from the room. In other words, you often hear me quote Dwight L Moody. Brilliant idea. It's such a great word picture. He refers to the Bible as

the straight stick of truth. And when you think about it, it's brilliant, is it not because you use it as a plumb line to measure all ideas out there, crooked ideas, ideas that aren't in alignment with the Word of God? I also think it's important to do this because it helps us when we evangelize. Please tell me you're evangelizing. Don't use a lifeline or call a friend. Just tell me that it's fire in your bones and you can't

wait to share the good news with somebody else. And so if you understand where someone else is coming from, while their ideas might not come into alignment with Scripture, it helps you, I think, in a more winsome, grace filled narrative, to be able to talk to that person about Jesus Christ. Right? So that's what we're going to do this hour, and we're going to focus particularly in on Islam. And our friend Abdul Murray is in the house, just loves spending time with this man. Oh, he keeps

me on my toes. He makes my synapses snap the entire hour. And I bet he does it for you too. He's the president of Embrace the Truth Ministry. He offers the credibility of the gospel message as a speaker and a writer. He's authored multiple books, including Saving Truth, Grand Central question and his latest, More Than a White Man's Religion. And he was a practicing devout Muslim. Nine years. Would you have had the staying power to seek Jesus for

nine years? Well, this man was deeply curious and had a hunger in his heart. So for nine years he turned over all kinds of stones historical ones, philosophical ones, theological ones, scientific ones, until he finally found himself at the foot of the cross, accepted Christ as his personal Savior. Boom! Old things pass away, all things become new. And now this lawyer by training is an advocate for the King, and he does a superb job just doing that. So

vis a vis embraced the truth. He's got a fabulous podcast. And yeah, I'm you know, Paul says don't build on another man's work. I'm not going to. But I'll tell you what, I'll pick his brains, because what I listen to on his podcast, I think, is so good that if you're not following Embrace the Truth in their podcast, this is a catalyst for you to get even more interested and start listening to Abdul and his conversations on a more regular basis. So he recently was talking about

Islam and what Muslims think about Jesus and Abdul. The warmest of welcomes. You made a statement that I thought was so interesting, and I bet it's going to challenge anybody who's listening with both ears on the side of their head right now. And you say that Muslims love Jesus. Now, I can't tell you. I know a whole lot of Christians that would say Christians love Mohammed. So I don't know that I can tip that back and forth and

say it's equal in either camp. But to say that a muslim loves Jesus is stunning, because we think that Islam, a religion created hundreds of years after Christianity that there would be an affinity at all for Jesus. When Mohammed is the one true prophet to the followers of Islam. So talk to me about the fact that they love Jesus. I find that interesting and intriguing.

S6

Yeah. Thanks, Janet, and it's always such a pleasure to be with you. Um, yeah, this is an interesting, uh, thing that surprises a lot of people, especially a lot of Christians, because what they end up hearing is Islam is this sort of anti-Christian religion in some ways, and in some ways, that's actually true. There is this sense in which Islam is a religion that is a competitor to religions that are already established in the Middle East,

like the paganism of the day. Judaism, which also was, was, was extant in the Arabian Peninsula, but also Christianity. Uh, in fact, that's why the phrase Allahu Akbar actually exists. It's a God is greater. In other words, God is greater than the things you guys say about him because you're wrong about him. Now, having said that, because it's a competitor to Christianity, it's also, however, um, a comrade

of Christianity to a degree in some sense. And that sense is that it has an affinity for Jesus and a number of other people who are mentioned in the Bible. Uh, David, Moses, Abraham, Noah, all these folks. Um, now, when Muslims say they love Jesus, they love Jesus as a prophet of God. They love him as someone who was virgin born. Uh, the Quran has an entire chapter dedicated to Jesus's mother. It's called Surat Maryam. So Sura is a chapter of the Quran.

Maryam is the Semitic way to say Mary. And so the chapter 19 of the Quran is all about Mary and all about the miraculous birth of Jesus as Mary, from Mary as a virgin. So Muslims Revere Jesus as a prophet of God who warned people to come back to true monotheism, which they believe is Islam. In fact, they believe that that Jesus was a muslim, that he

actually preached Islam. Um, to return to the dietary and other legal restrictions that were implemented by God originally and to get away from any kind of paganism or other kind of, uh, sort of errant ways. The Jews had gone or other people had gone. Um, so they revered him as such. In fact, the Muslims understand that Jesus

performed miracles. The Quran records many miracles, not the least of which is his virgin birth, but also that as a child, as an infant, he spoke from the cradle to, uh, sort of substantiate his prophetic office and to defend Mary's honor that he was, in fact a gift of God, not the result of some sort of tawdry thing she had done. Um, and he, uh, heals the sick. He even raises the dead, um, and does all these things.

So they often Revere Jesus as this prophet. But one of the reasons they also Revere him is that he's a prophet who, according to Islam, prophesied the coming of Muhammad eventually that he would be the final prophet. So for all of those reasons, a muslim would say they love Jesus.

S1

Wow. Okay. So many things to ask in that. So you taught me something. They believe that Jesus performed miracles. Teach me. Does the Quran ever say that Muhammad performed miracles?

S6

So explicitly? No, there's there's nothing. There's a whole strand of Muslim theology where they say that the only miracle that actually vouchsafed or in some way confirmed Muhammad's prophetic office was the Quran itself. Muslims will claim that Muhammad was an illiterate man because of the Quran calls him the unlettered one. Um. And that he therefore was illiterate, and that this masterpiece of Arabic grammar and poetry and content could not have been fashioned by an illiterate man.

It had to be a miraculous revelation to him. In fact, they don't even ascribe to Muhammad any authorship of the Quran. They'd say it's completely God that he was not inspired. Rather, he heard words and he simply said what he heard. So he is like this mouthpiece. But other than that, according to strict Islam, there are no miracles. Now, there are some folk areas of Islam where there are miracles, but strictly speaking, there are none attributed to Muhammad other than the Quran itself.

S1

Wow, I bet you just heard a boatload of things you never heard before. That's why I love spending time with Abdul. He's such a great teacher. We are going to continue to talk about what our Muslim friends think about Jesus. I think it's important for us to understand, and I think it also equips us when we're loving our Muslim neighbors. And we want to share the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ with them. Again, I've got a link to embrace the truth so much.

Excellent resource material there and a podcast dealing specifically with this. I've got a link in my info page as well. Much more with Abdu Murray right after this. Have you ever wondered why music moves us so deeply, or why beauty takes our breath away? My Truth Tool this month is a thought provoking book that explores those moments of wonder we all encounter. It's called. Have you ever wondered? Consider how ordinary aspects of life point to the extraordinary

biblical truths. Ask for your copy of. Have you ever wondered when you give a gift of any amount in the market, call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go to in the market with Janet Parshall. Is with us for the entire hour. We always look forward to our regular conversations with him. He is president of Embrace the Truth Ministry. And among the panoply of things he does through his ministries. He's got a fabulous podcast. So he had an episode recently called Jesus in Islam, Prophet, Messiah,

but not God. Question mark. And so we're doing a side by side comparison. I've already learned things in the first part of our conversation, and I bet you have as well. So let me pick up where we left off. So I find this interesting and and I wonder if in the Islamic world, if it's seen as a tension or it's just moving past it, because the singular role of Jesus is to point to Muhammad. So Jesus does

miracles according to Quran, but Muhammad does not. But Muhammad has to be proclaimed by Jesus because Muhammad ends up being the last prophet. That's interesting because one would think, and I can't speak for anyone else, but from my perspective, I would think someone who could do miracles would already, in the hierarchy of all things supernatural would have my attention over someone who was not. Is that not a tension in the Islamic world?

S6

Well, it can be definitely. In fact, one of the reasons why miracles are outside of the Quran actually attributed to Muhammad is because of the tension you just mentioned. So, as I was saying before, the Quran doesn't actually specifically say Muhammad performed some miracles. In fact, there are several places where it says he didn't. Uh, example is um, uh, where there is a um, I'm looking it up real quick.

There is a section, there's a couple of verses where the Quran says, for example, in, um, the 13th chapter, seventh verse, uh, the unbelievers were saying, if only some sign were sent down upon Muhammad from his Lord. Um, in other words, if only there was something that we could know was proven. But it says, no, he's only a Warner. He only warns people, um, like to come

back to true monotheism. Um, and there are various commentators who made a point that there is no there is no miracle story in the Quran except for these vague references, for example, in the 17th chapter, uh, verse one, um, there is this reference to what's called a mirage, which is basically a night journey where, um, according to Muslim tradition, uh, Muhammad was taken from Mecca. The mosque in Mecca all the way to Jerusalem, where the dome of the Rock

is at. Which is why it's a holy site for Muslims. And he was taken there in a single night by a winged horse named Buraq, which means blessing. And the only reference you find in the Quran is in chapter 17, where it says, uh, glory to God who took his servant doesn't even mention Muhammad by name, but his servant for a journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest mosque, whose precincts we blessed in order that we might show him some of our signs or some

of our miracles. Well, there's no detail there, and there's no eyewitnesses to it. There's also a reference, uh, from chapter 54 of the Quran, where, uh, it is said that the moon was split, and Muslims will often say that there is a, a hadith or a tradition about Muhammad where someone said, show me a sign. And he looked, took his finger in the sky, and he traced out

the moon and he split the moon with his finger. Now, that is not considered necessarily a strong claim or evidence, but because of the tension you just mentioned, a lot of these, um, a lot of these miracles have to be ascribed to Muhammad, because the most recent prophet before him was Jesus, and he did a bunch of miracles. He was born of a virgin, and in fact was an even greater tension is that the Quran refers to Jesus as sinless, but it doesn't refer to Muhammad that

way or anybody else, frankly, as that way. In fact, Muhammad has to actually ask in a sort of implied way, for forgiveness at the end of his life.

S1

The tension just keeps growing. So and again, thank you for that superb explanation about that. Because if again hierarchical just I'm trying to use common sense here. Jesus does miracles, Muhammad does not. Muhammad never claims that he's sinless. Jesus is. And yet you decide, if I can put it this way, to go to a lesser God. I find that interesting

to me. So what is the attractiveness if the things that Jesus can do, um, are not identified or affirmed in Qur'anic writing, why would one then subscribe to Muhammad as opposed to Jesus?

S6

Well, I think there's a couple of there's one is just a sort of a sociological reason. Yes. And one of those sociological reasons is, is that Muhammad had a tremendous amount of influence militarily and politically, and he was an incredibly charismatic figure in Arabia. So you have this growing movement of Muhammad amongst, uh, the pagan Arabs of the time who worshipped multiple gods. And Muhammad said, stop

doing that. Um, he had a, a political affinity, uh, or even a theological affinity to a degree with Christians and Jews in the beginning of his prophetic career, as it were. Um, by saying, Christians and Jews, we all believe in the same God. And I affirm your prophets and all these things. And so some were converting to Islam, uh,

by by choice, not necessarily by force. Uh, it was when they began to resist him, because he was claiming an office that was at least as good, if not higher than Jesus, that he, the Quran, starts to turn on them, and Muhammad starts to turn on them and say that Christians and Jews are amongst the worst of creatures.

It's actually in the Bible. Sorry, in the Quran. So you have this political charismatic thing, but then later on, I think what happens is, is you have this sociological development, and I've thought about this a lot, and I don't have necessarily a historical according to Hoyle, this is how this happened kind of a thing. But I suspect it, based on my interactions and my history, is that Muhammad is for the Middle Easterners and for the Arabs especially,

specifically the Arabs. He's theirs. He's their guy like he is. He legitimizes the the people of the Arabian people in light of the the Jews and the Romans of the time especially, they were, you know, had offices, they had prophetic offices, they had political offices. And along comes an Arabian who says, hey, I'm from the same line, the

line of Ishmael, from Abraham, from an Abrahamic faith. And so this effort to legitimize Muhammad and to have this affinity for him, there has to be a loyalty and a fealty to him that is beyond actual rationality, because even Muslims will tell you. The Quran specifically says we make no distinction amongst the prophets. There is no distinction. They all have equal office. Muhammad happens to be the

last one who delivered the perfect book. But he's not greater in the sense that he himself is ontologically greater. Yet Muslims will take great offense if someone makes fun of Muhammad but not Jesus, they're fine with Jesus being made fun of, but not Muhammad. And it's partly because there is this loyalty and fealty to Muhammad based on ethnicity and sociology.

S1

Boy, that's fascinating because Jesus is in the Quran, okay, this isn't a superimposition. He's in there already. And so there's a kind of, um, interesting, uh, waltz that has to be played around this when we come back. Abdul, I was just thinking when you were talking. I bet there are a whole lot of people who could say, well, I didn't even know if Muhammad was real. Tell me a little bit about his biography that he is a historical,

historically substantiated person that was in history. Tell me something about his background. Abdul Murray is with us. The purpose of all of this is to get fire in your bones so you can share Jesus with your Muslim friends back after this. We're visiting with Abdul Murray, president of Embrace the Truth Ministry. Prolific author, by the way. Let me run some titles past you again. Saving truth, Grand central question, uh, apocalypse later, and his most recent book,

More Than a White Man's Religion. And he's got a great podcast as well. All of that can be found at Embrace the Truth. And I've got a link to the ministry. Not hard to forget. Embrace the truth. I guess I meant not hard to remember. Embrace the truth. So we're doing a side by side comparison about exactly what our Muslim friends think about Jesus. And so I was thinking, I don't doubt for one second the historicity

of Jesus Christ, the extra-biblical affirmation of his existence. And all of the times we've talked over the years, Abdu, about how he can be historically substantiated even outside the parameters of Scripture. Can the same thing be said of Mohammed? And if the answer is yes, what can you tell us about him?

S6

Well, um. Well, the surprisingly little actually, that specifically mentions Muhammad outside of Islam's own sources. So, for example, you'd expect to see a lot more from Romans and from Persians, uh, with whom he interacted, um, uh, and other other people's, um, various religious groups or, um, even political groups with whom

he interacted. There's very little outside of the Islamic sources, not something I would think that's nothing like the the riches we find in terms of the not only Jesus himself, but the early Christian church. Well, you do have some you do have some references that are either, uh, indirectly related to, say, say, talk about Muhammad as a person like mentioned, his name. But there's a lot of reference to, you know, a leader of the Muslims and that kind

of thing. So you do see some of that. Um, largely what we have in terms of the understanding of the history and the life of Muhammad comes from the hadith literature and what's called the Sunnah. The Sunnah is like the the biography of Muhammad, largely compiled from the hadith. Hadith comes from an Arabic word which means to discuss. It also means something that happens like a an event.

And so the hadith are a collection, and there's like six authoritative collections, um, of various hadith, which are traditions about Muhammad. So what you'd get is a statement that is, um, brought about by a chain. So you'd have like thus in such a person heard thus in such a person say that one of Muhammad's closest friends said that Muhammad said,

so you'd have that kind of that kind of a chain. Um, and some of them are direct, like, um, this guy said, I heard Muhammad say, um, and so you'd have a lot of the history of Muhammad from that collection, and there are various versions that are spurious. There are things that like likely didn't happen, uh, but they're still compiled.

There's other things that likely did happen, but we have this from this oral tradition, and what we don't have is anything written down about Muhammad's life in any real sense from these hadith traditions until about 100 to 150 years after Muhammad's death. Now, that doesn't mean that they didn't exist. It just meant they existed in an oral form, and they weren't written down in any authoritative way. And so there was compilations that had to be collected about

Muhammad's life. Um, but traditionally, and I think we can, with some confidence, actually say Muhammad was a real person. He really did, in fact, exist. He was the he was the founder of Islam. And he, um, was a at least a political leader who had theological heft to the things he was saying that gave him a religious movement that became a political movement mixed with religion as well. So I think we can say that, um, so I think we can say that with with relative relative certainty.

I don't think the same certainty exists with that claim as does with other historical figures, uh, including and especially Jesus and the early church, which is ironic because Muhammad was born in 570 A.D. so you talk about 500 years after Jesus's life, and yet we have less evidence, um, outside of Islam, for Muhammad than we have for Jesus, who was 600 years before him, uh, or 500 years before him. So that's just interesting all by itself.

S1

So much again. And I bet everybody is just as being impacted as much as I am about information they really didn't know before. So raises a couple of questions. And I ask you this because this is not academic for you. You were on a nine year journey and there were things that you plowed through, including the historicity of the scriptures. So I loved what you said before, that he and I'm not being disrespectful, but he's kind

of like, he's our guy, all right? He's ours. He gets passed down generationally, you know, our fathers before us, etc., going back multiple generations. And so questions like the. Well, there's very little that substantiates his existence outside of. Within the parameters of our own writing. In other words, there is no Josephus who can identify a Mohammed. So I

find that interesting. But then again, maybe not such a problem, because I'm not sure for the Muslim who wants to affirm what they already believe, if that becomes a stumbling block in their investigation. I may have said that cryptically, but does that make sense?

S6

No it does. It does make a lot of sense, actually. And I want to say that there are there are some there's not a Josephus style. There's not a Suetonius or a Tacitus, you know, kind of enemies of the, of the Christian faith who reference reference Jesus and the movement that he started. Um, but there are some references, uh, like the doctrine of Jacobi, uh, you know, six hundreds, uh, in the common era, there's a couple of, um, references to Islam and Muslims and Muhammad in sort of veiled ways,

but they're not nearly as strong. It does create a tension, though, when you begin to look at this stuff. Um, you think to yourself, if he was this influential, especially politically, um, and especially militarily, you'd expect to see a lot more information with Jesus. It's interesting because people often make the same claim with Jesus. Oh, we should see if he's this influential. We should see tons of information about him from non-Christian sources. Well, the first thing is we do.

We have exactly. We have plenty. But we wouldn't see the Romans outside of their historians writing documents about their conquests or their battles against Jesus because he had none. He didn't do it that way. But Muhammad did. You have battles and all these progressions, so you'd expect there to be at least something from his enemies that would either say we conquered him or he conquered us. And we have no, we have almost none of that.

S3

Wow.

S1

Absolutely fascinating. Okay, I still have a ton of questions. I'm hearing the music. So let me take a clean break here and we'll come back. Abdul Murray is with us. This is why we just love when he comes to visit. He really gets the pistons of our mind firing, doesn't he? And again, why are we doing this? It isn't just a matter of going yawn. It's comparative theology. No, it's

much more than that. If you want to become all things to all people so that by all means, some might be saved, I want to know because when I'm sharing Jesus with someone that's a neighbor or a friend or a coworker who happens to be a subscriber to Islam, I want to know where they're coming from. Paul did when he was in Athens. Acts 17. So I want to know, and I'm learning a ton of stuff. I hope you are too back after this. What's the goal

of in the market? I'll tell you in the market equips men and women to think critically and act biblically. Why do we do this? So that we can be confident when speaking the truth in a confused culture? Are you willing to stand with me? Become a partial partner today, and enjoy exclusive benefits only my partners receive while making an impact for the Kingdom. Call 877 Janet 58 or go online to in the market with Janet Parshall Dot. Abdul Murray is the president of Embrace the Truth Ministry.

He offers the credibility of the gospel message as a speaker and a writer through his ministry, does a fabulous job. He's authored several books, excuse me, including Saving Truth, Grand Central Question, Apocalypse Later, and his latest, More Than a White Man's Religion. He speaks all over the world. He contends for the faith. He does so beautifully and and embrace the truth. He also has a podcast, which he did recently on Jesus in Islam. Had to get that off air. And now we go back to what he

was saying before. So I'm doing I found it interesting you said that Muhammad is deemed to be the founder of Islam, and yet there are all these prophets that precede him. Why is he deemed to be the founder then?

S6

Well, that's actually a great question, because oftentimes, and I want to make sure I qualify that statement. Um, is Muhammad is deemed, you know, historically speaking, and even theologically

to some degree to be the founder of Islam. Although Muslims would say that Islam actually began with Adam, that Adam and Eve were actually Muslims, in fact, the Quran actually describes them as that way is that when they eat of the fruit that they should not be eating, they are cast down from the garden and, uh, God's reward to them, not for their sin, but because they're human beings and his his not reward, but his gift

to them. Uh, instead of just casting them out of the garden, was to give them a way back, to come back into God's good graces, which was what's called the huda or the the guidance or the wisdom, um, which is taken to be the law or, uh, the, uh, sort of doctrinal statements and law that they're supposed to not only believe but also follow and that that is consistent throughout all of the prophets, from Adam to Noah to Abraham to Moses, um, down through David, John the Baptist, uh,

Jesus himself and eventually Muhammad. So, technically speaking, a muslim would say Muhammad is not the founder of Islam. God is the founder of Islam through the very first prophet, Adam. Now, having said that, um, what Muslims also believe is that the Quran is the divine revelation which eternally existed, but came as the last revelation to fix all the corruption

that had happened in the previous scriptures. And so Muhammad is the founder of Islam in the sense that he established a religion and was the most successful of the prophets because his, his, his revelation was never changed. Um, the Quran according to Muslims has never been changed and the message has stayed the same. And he brought us back to the true and authentic monotheism of Adam all

the way through to Jesus. Whereas Jesus and Noah and and Abraham and David, all of their revelations were eventually corrupted in some way. Uh, but Muhammad was not. And so that's sort of again, answers the first question, which is why Muhammad and, you know, why is he so special? Well, that's one reason. And two, is he the founder? Yes, of the stable religion. But Adam technically is the very first believer in Islam.

S1

Wow. Absolutely fascinating. I meant to ask you this. When we came back after the break. And let me ask it now. Your knowledge just flows out of you on this. Abdul, you can quote the hadith and you talk about the Quran. Is this because you studied this from a child growing up, or did you study this, uh, to go deep into it as you were on your nine year exploration that took you to the cross?

S6

Well, it's both. And then one more. Um, it's both because, um, I had been taught a lot of stuff as a kid, um, about Islam, and I actually took a lot of that stuff and went further with it because I had sort of a sense of religious devotion, uh, even as a child and well into teen years and that kind of stuff. It was when I was in college when I really began to, like, think, okay, do I believe this because it's true, or do I believe it because it's tradition

and there's a whole story behind that. But then I began to look even more into it and alongside Christianity and other, you know, uh, worldviews and systems just to get a firmer grasp of what this really teaches. Um, and so during that journey, I began to take this deeper dive, deeper look into the foundations of the thing that I had believed my whole life. I had a foundation already set, but a lot of this stuff was

developed during that nine year journey. And then the. And is that after that nine year journey was complete and I gave my life to Christ. Um, I began to look even further because what I wanted to do was to make sure that one I had made the right decision. And two, I wanted to make sure that if I, if I if I extol this virtue of of Christianity, this credibility of Christianity, I believe you have to do it in comparison. Oftentimes, you know, as Guinness, the great

Guinness said, comparison is the mother of clarity. And when you understand this stuff and you really dive into it, you begin to be able to give a better clarity because you're able to compare a different worldview. And I have a strong heart for Muslims. Given my background. I preach to everybody, but Muslims hold a special place in my heart because of my own background. So I wanted to learn more about them, and I think that's the most important, critical thing is, before you cast aspersions at

someone else's worldview, make sure you know it. Now, do you have to know every single thing about it? Absolutely not. You don't. But I'm sort of one of those guys who I like the detail and I like to do this. And then the fourth thing I'll add on the journey is when you get involved in debates and dialogues on this stuff, in formalized debates and these kind of conversations, people bring up things you didn't necessarily know, and you have to go and dive into it ahead of time

or in reaction to it. And so a lot of what I know is because of that as well.

S1

Wow. So there's my observation. I could be dead wrong, but my subjective observation on this is that there is, within the parameters of Islam, a family element that I don't see fully replicated in Christianity. Maybe it's because in my travels to the Middle East, one of you talk about being dumb. That's why Mark Twain said, you know,

travel is the best classroom. I did not realize that when you traveled in the Middle East, you have an ID card and there's an M after your name for Muslim, and it has to be changed if you become a Christian, and then that changes to a C and that doesn't come without consequences. And so it is more than just making a proclamation of faith and understanding that you're going to follow Jesus. You've now made a public declaration through

your official identification whose you are. But for Muslims, what I learned very quickly is it isn't about evangelizing. I'm going to use all of my Christianized term and superimpose it on Islam, but I think my friends will understand it if I use those terms. So there's no evangelizing, and very often what I see was or what I saw was it's generational impact. My great grandfather, my grandfather, and it just went down and there was no aha moment of conversion. I got saved when I was seven.

It was I was immersed totally in an Islamic household. That's all we've ever known. That's all we'll ever be. That's who we are as a people, as a family. Now, is that an is that an obtuse observation, or is there some truth in that?

S6

No, there's a lot of truth in it, actually. Um, there is, uh, a real sense in which, uh, you are, um, a born a muslim. Muslims believe you are born a muslim, and it is the world that changes you into a Christian or a Jew or whatever it might be, or a Hindu or a Buddhist. You're born with an innate sense of monotheism and monotheism that is very Islamic. Unitarian monotheism. Um, and then that tradition is fostered because the East and the Middle East is categorized by an honor and shame culture,

which has its benefits. You know, it's it's got it's tremendous benefits. It's tremendous benefit is that you do that which brings honor and you avoid that which brings shame, uh, to your community and to your family and to the country and then to the religion itself. Now, that's good in one sense, because what you do is you think of others before you think of yourself. It's not so individualistic that you don't think of the ramifications of your beliefs,

your actions and these kind of things on others. The shadow side. And everything's got a shadow side this side of heaven, the shadow side is that you're willing to believe false things, even things that you might know are false, because believing otherwise would bring shame to your family. Yes. And so, yes, that is exactly. You're hitting the nail right on the head. One of the reasons why it's so difficult to break in to the Muslim heart and the Muslim mind with the good news, and it is

great news, is that they see the bad news. And the bad news is, if I accept this, I could lose everything. I could lose my sense of community, my sense of identity. I could lose family. I could even possibly lose my life. And so oftentimes we say John 316 and it sounds so fantastic, but they're thinking all the negative consequences. So yeah, that's you've hit it, you've nailed it. And that's exactly what happens. It's not obtuse.

It's actually concrete. And by the way, that's not just a middle eastern regional thing for all the Muslims that are here in the United States and across the world, whether it's in the Western world or in the Muslim world. Um, that's a that's a truism. That's a true thing for everybody. Um, yeah. I'll tell you a quick story, very short. I was witnessing to a muslim guy, and he was acknowledging every single thing I was saying is true in his own journey.

And tears were flowing from his eyes, and he looked down at his shoes as if the answers to all the world's questions, wherever was written on his shoes, he would not look up. And he said under his breath, my father has never told me he's proud of me, and that he loves me. And if I become a if I become a Christian, he never will. And that was his chief barrier. So yes, it's a huge part.

S1

Wow. That breaks my heart. I get tears in my eyes when I think about that. I'm thinking also, if anybody is as old as I am, let me give you a cultural reference that really underscores what Abdul was saying. So I remember George W Bush giving a press conference, and it was the middle of the conflict of the Middle East, and the reporter took his shoe and threw it at President Bush. And most people in America wouldn't have understood that. That goes exactly to what Abdul was

talking about. The throwing the shoe is very often that symbol of shame being transmitted to another person. And I don't think in the Western mind we understood the significance of that. I remember the president kind of made some offhand comment like, you miss me or something like that after it happened, but it was really he was angry at what was happening in that part of the world, and he was shaming the president by throwing his shoe

at him. Um, so I want to underscore that the other thing, too, and it takes me back to you personally, Abdul. And I bet my music's going to play. But let me start the question anyway. So you do this wonderful deep dive for nine years, all the stones that you overturned that I talked about earlier, but the one stone that had to be the heaviest of all is who am I going to be in this family if I accept Jesus as my Savior? I'm one of them, but

I won't be one of them. I, as a son, do not ever want to bring shame and dishonor to my family. Why am I having to make this Hobson's choice between following Jesus and remaining a beloved son in my own family? Now the music's music is playing. So let me get your reaction to that. And maybe this is a blessing. Think about that. Because how often in the United States when you decide to say yes, he's Lord, I want him as Savior in my life? How often do we think and it will happen? In some cases,

I grant you. But does it happen to the same extent as it does, for example, in the Islamic and quite honestly, in the Jewish world as well? They'll hold funerals for Jews who come to faith in Jesus Christ sometime because you're dead to me, because you came to Christ. So this is something to think about when you're sharing that good news that there's a price to be paid sometimes, and we should always remember that back after this. Embrace

the truth. That's the website for Abdul Murray's ministry. Embrace the truth. Embrace the truth. And it's one of those deliciously rich sites with tons of information, links to books and articles that I've written and podcasts that he does. So check it out, please. I want you to know and love this ministry. And germane to our conversation this hour is I've got a direct link to a recent podcast he did called Jesus in Islam Prophet, Messiah Dot dot dot, but not God. Question mark. And there's so

much more. By the way, it's actually a two part. But I want you to start this, and then you're going to be hungry enough to want to get the second part. But I wanted to go on a very personal level about the idea, and I thank you for explaining this idea that there is this generational impact, this deep bonds of familial connection, that you're born a muslim.

And so you, Abdou, this beautifully eloquent man for the gospel and yet passionate about your family and a very observant Muslim that concluded after about one minute, but nine years of investigation and part of those deep night of the soul moments had to be, God, what are you going to do with me and my family? How did you resolve that?

S6

Well, that's why it took nine years. I've often put it this way, and I think this is this encapsulates it. And I want to sort of start the response by this is that it took me nine years to, to to come to faith in Christ, not because the evidence was hard to find. I found all the evidence I needed sufficient to make a commitment to Christ. I didn't

find all the answers. I still don't have all the answers. Um, but I found but I sufficiently found, I found sufficient answers to give my life to Jesus within about two years of that search. Um, but it took seven more years to wrestle with that evidence and reshape it and rethink it and mull it over a little bit more to shine it, to buff it, to scratch it sometimes all that stuff, because it didn't take me. It was it wasn't an easy and easy decision because there was

an identity issue. Who was I? Who was I going to be within myself? I liked being a muslim. Um, who was I going to be to my family and my community? Who was I going to be? And so how I put it is this. The answers were not hard to find, but they were hard to embrace. Um, and that's why the ministry's called that, by the way. That's why we're called Embrace the Truth. Because the answer was hard to. The answers were not hard to find,

but they are hard to embrace. And so part of our approach is to do what Blaise Pascal said is to make good people wish it were true, and then show them that it is. You show them the beauty of it. And so it took me this long, because I had to be so compelled that I was willing to risk so much. For me, it just this has to be true. If this is even remotely close to, to to a reasonable doubt about its truth, then I need to not do this. Because for me, the earthly

and the sort of, uh, corporeal consequences were too great. Um, that doesn't mean that they really are. It just meant that in my mind, they were. So that's why it took me that long. But I began to wrestle with something. And C.S. Lewis, I'll bookend it with this. C.S. Lewis, um, says two statements that I think are brilliant. Um, himself. What? He calls himself the most reluctant convert.

S1

Yes.

S6

He says. He said. He said if you look for truth, you'll find comfort. And then he says, but if you look for comfort, you will find only soft soap to begin with. But in the end, despair. Um. And I realized if I see comfort, I'll be okay for a while. But ultimately, I'll be in this despair because my intellectual integrity, I think the spiritual tug will, uh, as well, will ultimately be at odds with, uh, dare I say, my own cowardice over the consequences of what would happen to me.

And I knew that would be a despair. And when I finally gave my life to Christ, after seeing that all the things I was hoping was true in my former worldview were actually true in the gospel message, um, I realized something else, C.S. Lewis said. And it was to me, it was just such a a beautiful thing for him to say is, he said that the great thing to remember is that though our feelings come and go.

His love for us does not. It is not wearied by our sins or our indifference, and therefore it is quite relentless in its pursuit that its sorry, its determination that we shall be cured of those sins at whatever cost to us, at whatever cost to him. So I realized something that other worldviews, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, you know, any other ism and schism you can think of, they ask you to make a change, but at your expense

and your expense alone. The Christian message is that God causes the change at his expense, and therefore, what cost could I possibly pay that would that would, that would even compare to the cost he paid for me? How could I possibly say no to him? How could I possibly look at that cross and say, not good enough? I might get yelled at. I mean, how could I possibly do that? And so that's that's a big part of it, is that at some point I had to

be willing to give that up. And that's why Jesus says so beautifully in several places and in various ways, that you have to die to yourself. He who loses his life for my sake will find it. Um, I can tell you it's been 25 years, uh, since I became a believer. In fact, in June, 25 years since I became a believer. And in that quarter century when it's been the hardest to follow him, it's been the most worth it.

S1

Have you ever. And it's so contradictory to the statement that you just made because there is this tension, because not just your nuclear but your extended family as well. Did you ever think, oh, if only I hadn't, or for the eloquent reasons that you just articulated, how can you not supersedes the temporal?

S6

You know, I would be lying if I didn't say that there was some fleshly thing, or maybe even Satan saying something in my ear that says, just say this and it'll be fine. You know, it'll go easy for you. Um, I remember distinctly in the middle of the throes of some pretty intense emotional upheaval and relational upheaval, which, by the way, has all been resolved. I mean, we're great now. Um, but, uh, in the beginning, I remember thinking the word Muslim means

one who submits to God to his will. Couldn't you just say you are? And what you really mean is you submit to God's will in Christ and just leave it at that. And the answer was an emphatic no, because that would be lying. And how could I forsake truth when the truth forsook everything for me and I couldn't do it?

S3

Wow. Wow.

S1

And there's so much more in this podcast, Abdul. I feel like I've just barely scratched the surface. This is why I love our conversations that you can address the the mind issues, but it's the heart issues ultimately that take over and I hope what it's created. Number one actually a couple of things. Number one, I hope it puts I've used the phrase before. Let me harken back to Jeremiah again. I hope these conversations put fire in your bones. Are you willfully Volitionally asking the Lord for

opportunities to share the good news. And if not, why not? How can you keep this good news to yourself? How could you not? How can they know unless somebody tells them? X right. Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. So I'm hoping that there's now more fire in your bones to go out and tell that you won't be reticent or embarrassed, but that you'll roll up your sleeves. You'll be prepared. You'll ask for a real anointing from the Holy Spirit before you talk to people. But then also, I hope

this conversation broke your heart a little bit. He's not willing that any should perish, and our saying yes might not be the sort of angst another person has to go through before they say yes. For things like the generational connectedness, the definition of who you are within your family. There's a kind of Holy Spirit sensitivity that that requires. And one of the outcomes of these kinds of conversations, I hope, instills just that. Gosh, what a joy to

call you my friend Abdul. What a great hour. Thank you friends. We'll see you next time on In the market with Janet Parshall.

S7

Retractable claws up to 1.5in long, capable of jumping 36ft. Aurora that can be heard five miles away. The lion King of the beasts. Picture yourself surrounded by several. Like Daniel, he determined to pray, though he knew he would pay. Are we willing to face the lions of our culture? Be a Daniel. A challenge for Moody Radio.

S8

How long have you been a part of the Moody Radio family?

S9

Well, I've been listening to Moody since 1993. And, I mean, I get up with booty, I go to bed with Moody, and it just. It's been a blessing in my life for all these years. The teaching and the worship. And Moody is a station that is really rooted in the Word of God. In the series about who is God.

S8

Serious about God? That's us. And we're seriously grateful for listeners like you.

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