Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. There were some memorable characters in Donald Trump's administration during his presidency, but the most memorable, arguably was probably Trump's former communications director, anthony's Karamucci. Now, the Mooch as he's known, was in the role for eleven days, and if you dare say ten, he'll quickly correct you. And he's got a lot of thoughts about what might happen to America and the world if Trump gets another go in the White House.
Now.
I saw Anthony at an event at Bloomberg House in Davos, and he was actually in a corner with fifteen people laughing around him because he really brings some of these stories alive. He's pretty dramatic, and in Davos everyone was trying to figure out what a Trump two point zero in the White House would mean and whether he would get it. So I thought it made sense to get someone who was alongside Trump during the campaign and with him for a part of the ride in the White
House into our studio here in London. So this week of conversation with Anthony Skermucci about whether a Trump presidency would be more right wing, how dangerous he would be, or how beneficial he would be for financial services, and why he's such a believer in bitcoin. Welcome to in the City from Bloomberg's offices in the heart of the Square Mile. This is our weekly podcast about the stories driving the conversations of policymakers, hower brokers, and finine seers
in the power centers the world over. I'm Francin Laqua and I'm David Merritt, And like you're actually sitting this one out, Dave.
Yes, here in spirit, if not anybody always.
Now, I'm really excited, Dave, about this week's interview with Anthony Skeramucci, which we actually did with a friend of the show, our opinion columnist Adrian Woolridge.
Yes, it just feels incredibly timely to speak to somebody with such firsthand knowledge of Trump, how he operates, and he had a ringside seat first time round, to think about what might happen if he gets back in the White House. It is when you mentioned it was on one's mind that Davos Francine, I mean, I'm going to be back in America next week. It is certainly on everyone's mind there. The elections not till November, but it's going to be upon us for we know it.
Yeah, and Adoniskiramuci has this unique inside because he was really a Trump lover, right, he backed Trump, he went to work for Trump, and now that he's like one of the fearcest critics of Donald Trump.
That is the amazing thing, isn't it The swing of opinion here from lover to hater. And you know, we are tracking closely, of course, across America a public opinion about Donald Trump, who, as we all know, is very divisive. We've got a pole that we're running every month. It's in the seven what they call the Purple States, the swing states. That did you see the one that was
out this week, Francine. This was a particularly interesting one because it showed for the first time a bit of a bump for Biden, attributed maybe to some of his perceived success at the State of the Union address, but he is narrowing the gap in those crucial states. Now people clutching straws here to think. Is there some hope for Biden because he's still behind in lots of these places, or is this the start of a new trend.
It's interesting because Anthroy Scerumoucci doesn't think Trump will get in, although he's much better organized, so he's a better campaigner, he says, And if he does get in in the White House, he'll know what to do, so he could be potentially more dangerous for US democracy, a Skrimucci says, and for the rest of the world.
You know, but this is one of the things, isn't it that we all remember or maybe we've sort of collectively forgotten a bit back in twenty sixteen. No one thought Trump was going to win then, and you know, sort of here we are again at this point where the media commentators, even people who were at the ringside seat, are saying, no, it's not possible. It's not going to happen.
So I'll be visiting the Washington Bureau next week and I definitely get the sense from everybody there that you know, November is going to be upon us before we know it, and this is a rematch. It's looking pretty certain between Biden and Trump. So everyone is dusting themselves off for that and acknowledging. You know, covering Trump administration last time around was exhausting. You never knew what was going to happen when you woke up every day, so everyone is
bracing for more of that. But you know, our coverage out of DC, of course, will be spectacular. We've got a Washington newsletter, We've got a podcast every week, We've got our daily news show. So check it all out on bloombog dot com.
Good plug, nice shameless plug, Dave. But we do we're pretty on top of it. Here's our conversation with the former White House Communications director Anthony Scirramucci. Adrian, how excited are you by having Anthony scirramuch I'm excited.
I'm excittionally excited because for the next hour we will get you everywhere with me.
For the next hour, we'll listen to two stories of what it was like working for eleven days with Donald Trump, his prediction on the US economy, and we'll talk a little bit about the markets too. Thank you for joining us.
It's it's awesome to be here.
Do you ever get tired of talking about your time in the White House?
You know, I mean, if I mean asked about it, I'll about it. You know, I like talking about it with kids because it was such an epic fail and getting fired like that was a It was the appearance of a catastrophe, and I think it's a good thing to talk to kids about where you can have missteps in your life or a step on a land mine, but you can survive it and what you need to do to pull yourself back together. So I don't really
mind talking about it. I think the issue for me, which I don't like because it's a really poor reflection on me, is why did I actually go work for Trump in the first place. I think that is a poor reflection on me, and it speaks to perhaps a weakness and character. It speaks to ego, and it speaks to pride, because ultimately that was a prideful decision. It's a cautionary tale about putting your ego and your pride into your decision making.
So you didn't do it to serve the country you wanted to be in the White House.
No, I certainly did it to serve the country. But you have to understand you have a round in a square hole. Okay. I worked as a wall streeter for thirty years. I went to a couple of good schools. I grew up in a blue collar neighborhood. Now I can serve the American president, but the American president's crazy, and so people that had their pride out of the equation, like my very good friend Vinnie Viola. I don't know if you would recognize that name, but he ran vert
to as the president of the Merk. He was named by Donald Trump to be the Secretary of the Army. For two hour meetings with Trump, he withdrew himself from the position, and when I asked him why he did it, he said, you know, after spending more time with mister Trump, I realized I really couldn't work for him. He didn't have the right executive management skills, highly insecure person He's
not able to share credit. I resulted with I'm withdrawing myself from the position, and he too, was an army veteran, went to West Point, served the country, wanted to be the secretary of the Army, but it was incongruous with Trump's personality. I wasn't brave enough to make that statement. I was smart enough, but my ego is in the way.
Do you think Trump has deteriorated over the years. Do you think he'd be worse next time around than he was last time?
Well, he'll be significantly worse, but not because he's deteriorated. I think everybody deteriorates over time. He's going to be seventy eight years old, so he's att slower. But that's not the issue for Trump. The issue for Trump is that he's now experienced. He's now been in the White House. He's lost the White House. If he gets the job again,
he'll be very, very dangerous in that job. And he's also got some very experienced campaign people with him now that believe in the expansion of unitary executive power, and this is very, very dangerous for the society.
Can you say, have a little bit more about the sort of people he's got around him, because it seems to me that they're different from last time. Last time had a lot of Republican establishment, a lot of moderates, a lot of people who didn't quite know what they were getting themselves in. For this time, it seems to be true believes Is that right?
I would say that that's right. A little bit of a contrarian on this, because I really know the beast of Donald Trump. He's such a name dropper, Adriana, He's such a status state seeker that those people won't rise in the cabinet. He's got them in the campaign. Now they're very discipline. I'll probably try to bring Manifort back because Manafort has back channels at the foreign money. So those people are loyalists to Trump, but also the idea
of massive expansion of executive power. And this is actually a Dick Cheney concept. So this is like a Frankenstein monster that was unleashed by Cheney in the early part of the two thousands, perpetrated by him and George W. Bush. And now it's become this Frankenstein golam of Donald Trump. And so this is something that we have to stop immediately. And then you have to ask yourself. Once Trump has stopped, which I predict you will be stopped, what comes after
Donald Trump? Is there a worse monster coming? Or can we renew the American experiment? Can we renew the American democracy?
What do you mean he'll be stopped? So you don't think, first of all, how did he get the Republican nomination, and you don't think he becomes president.
Well, he definitely doesn't become president. No, he doesn't have a he doesn't have the You have to look at the data very carefully, and you have to remember in the United States, you have something called the Bradley effect. And so Mayor Tom Bradley, the first African American mayor in our history, when he was running for real election, when the pollsters called, so you're voting for Mayor Bradley, people said yes. It was a nine point spread between
the poll and the actual election. Bradley lost the election, and the people said they didn't want to appear racist to the person on the phone. They didn't want to vote for Bradley because I didn't think he was competent at his job, had nothing to do with his skin color. And so what's happening right now with Trump is that there's more media exposure for him relatively, and there's people
that actually like what's going on at the border. They're gonna vote for Joe Biden, but they're telling people that they don't like what's going on at the border. And the other big issue for Donald Trump is that they're going to run the replay film of his full on insanity, the craziness of the insurrection, the insanity around the COVID nineteen situation. But how do you see what I'm saying? I do?
But then how did he get the nomination?
You got the nomination because he's got an ardent support base of twenty percent of the American population that feel left out. And this is another problem with the United States, is another problem with the UK. Our political established and primarily baby boomers have failed these countries. Okay, specifically talking about the United States. The baby boomers are indulgent, they're selfish.
They got passed up aton from the greatest generation of a vanquished fascist fascism in Europe and architecture that rebuilt the world for peace and prosperity, led by the UK, the United States, and the family of liberal Western democracies, and so we've grown tired of it. That happens in history.
If you study Barbara Tuckman's books The Guns of August as an example, when we lose our wartime memory, we're eighty years out from the D Day invasion now, and when we lose our wartime memory or living memory, we have a tendency to glorify war, and we increase our propensity towards nationalism. So that's happening right now. And rather than going back to the principles that got us to where we are, our politicians become more tribal. That become
more insular. It's also being helped by the former Soviet Union through their server farms. They're pushing a lot of this narrative into the Internet. It's a lot of garbage that's showing up on social media references all of this, and Trump plays right into that.
Can I put you a bit on the Bradley effect, because surely you could cate the opposite conclusion from the Bradley effect. We have people in this country called shy conservatives. The number of people actually vote Conservative is generally bigger than the number of people who say they will, because people don't want to be associated with this, you know, this slightly disreputable party in their mind. Isn't the same
thing true if Trump? A lot of people will say they're not going to vote for Trump, who actually, when they go into the ballot box say they unleashed that in the Trump I.
Would say that was true in twenty sixteen, It was not true in twenty twenty. I don't believe it's the case in twenty twenty four. And so what you're saying was a twenty sixteen phenomenon, But in twenty twenty four, he's a known entity. He does he has very high negatives. Nobody's won the presidency with this high of a negative. He has not won a plurality of Americans. He's never had a higher approval rating above fifty percent at any
time that he was in the presidency. But I'm telling you, the American people are going to choose older and mildly for yet fall to fall on in sent.
So surely a lot depends on whether Biden makes mistakes.
Yeah, and people go and vote.
Actually is if Biden makes a few crucial mistakes.
You know, I love about you, guys. I mean I'm gonna push Can I push back on you too? Because I love you guys? Okay, because you you know, this is like the Davos set. We were in Davos together, right, and so I've been going to Davos for seventeen years. Davos is always wrong. In two thousand and seven, they told us that the trees were going to grow to the sky and we had solved all of our monetary
policy problems. In two thousand and nine, in January, they said that the world was going to open and we're all falling into the earth. We're going to go to the worst depression since the nineteen twenties, we had the greatest bull market run in history. Twenty sixteen, Davos said, Hillary Clinton's going to be president. There's no reason to have the election twenty twenty with absolute certainty Trump was going to win the election. Now in twenty twenty four,
Trump is going to win the election. He's just not going to win.
But I do think they're going to win. I'm sorry, especially on the economy. Your enemy in DeVos, Jamie Diamond JP Morgan, went on a rival channel and he said, let's just take a step back. He's kind of right about NATO, he's kind of right about immigration. He grew the economy quite well. Is this economy going to let Joe Biden down?
So with all respect to Jamie, because I think he's one of the smartest people that I've ever met. He's certainly one of the smartest people in the financial services. I have an intellectual disagreement with him on the crypto currency, specifically bitcoin, but he's a lot smarter than me, so I'll see economic points to him. But Trump lost twenty one million jobs on his watch. He totally and completely
mishandled the COVID nineteen situation. He has no executive management skills, and he disorganized the executive branch of the United States, which includes nineteen cabinet and sub cabinet level agencies and departments that were paralyzed by Donald Trump and his Twitter account. And so he is the wrong guy for that job. Now, if you want to say, because let's be objective on your podcast, that he has points to be made on deregulation, he has points to be made on economic growth, he
does have those points. He blew the tax reform. He did nothing to help the twenty percent of the people that put him back in the nomination, his ardent supporters, he has done nothing for He's an avatar for their anger. He represents an orange wrecking ball into the establishment to smash the established.
For me, that because if you think, even if he's done nothing for you, if you think that there's one person that fights for you, you're going to get him reelected.
He's not fighting for them as much as he's striking a match to the establishment. So he's done nothing for them. Joe Biden, through his legislative accomplishments in the last three years, has done way more for those people. But he's a very poor messenger because he's frail. The people that voted for Lyndon Johnson or Jack Kennedy, you know, their grandparents or their great grandparents, a voter for Franklin Roosevelt. Many of those people that are aligned with Trump now because
the Democrats seeded those people. The establishment Democrats say we're going to focus on transgender bathrooms, pronoun usage DEEI that's going to be our champion in this generation. The white, lower middle class and the working class have been left disenfranchised by both parties. Like or dislike Donald Trump, he saw that he went into those communities. I went into those communities with them, seventy one campaign stops with him on the Trump plane. I saw the blight in those communities.
I grew up with those people. And again, this doesn't reflect well on me, but this is my cognitive bias. Because I've hung out in the salons of the wealthy, and I hung out at Davos, and I went to work at Goldman and I went to Harvard Law School. These people don't think like the blue collar people I grew up with. And so when I arrived on the Trump campaign in twenty sixteen, and I was in New Mexico, and somebody, a blue collar worker looked at me and said, oh,
you think you're in New Mexico. New New Mexico. That would be Mexico, because that's where the factory that I was working in my dad was working and moved to. So this is no longer New Mexico. And those people who Trump is do nothing for, they'll vote for him anyway because he wants to wreck the establishment. He wants to destroy the system, and they don't like the system because the system hasn't worked for them.
How did the liberal astablishment get things so wrong? How did it create so much I think just often justified animosity against.
Itself, complacency. They got very complacent. They took for granted the votes. Hillary Clinton looked at Wisconsin and said those are primarily union workers and blue collar people. She did not show up in Wisconsin. Trump went seven times to Wisconsin after the Republican convention. So his messaging, he's a look, he sucked as president, let's just be honest, and he sucks for the world order, and he sucks for peace
and global prosperity. But he's a wonderful communicator, and he's got tireless energy and he resonates with a very large group of people that feel left out of the system.
Do you think the liberal astablishment has learned anything from what happened in twenty sixteen.
Joe Biden has Joe Biden put legislation in place for reshoring. He put the Chips Act in place, He passed an infrastructure built.
I don't want to talk a bit about the UK, but if Donald Trump goes bankrupt, does that make a difference to the American psyche and the run up to the election.
Not to his core base. They'll vote from no matter what bankrupt in jail he could he could be, he could be campaigning with an orange suit on a zoom call from a jail cell. They're still going to vote for him. Okay, they've they've decided they're in that cult. They've decided he can do absolutely no wrong. But the people that matter are the independence, the suburban women are
going to drive this election of it again. You know, if you've got two movies that are playing in the United States in twenty twenty four, Weekend at Bernie's and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, I'm going weekend at Bernie's I'll take I'll take one guy who's got one foot on a banana peal the other one in the casket, over a guy that needs a lobotomy, that's certifiably crazy, that wants to demolish the post World War two architecture, wants to destroy the institutions of the American democracy.
You've painted a pretty depressing picture of the choice that America faces in the next selection.
I'm painting an accurate picture.
Suppressing it's contradictory things. But how did you get into this position as a country is the most important country in the world.
So the answer to that, there's a couple of things that happened. One of them is Citizens United. One of them is Ross Perot. Ross Perot actually caused this. He didn't realize it at the time, but he scared the daylights out of the oligarchic duopoly known as the Demo Publicans. Okay,
so they had a duopoly going quite strongly. Pero entered the race, got nineteen point nine percent of the vote, freaked them out, So they strengthened their duopoly by going into the state and local governments and tightening the restrictions on having a third party enter a race. You know, you've got to get thousands and thousands of petitions. You have to follow this uh weird life of laws and procedures to get on the ballot. And they did all of this to strengthen to doopoly. They then ceded to
each other's jerry mandering. And so for your UK listeners, that basically means these local governments, the state and local and the governors can look at the map and they can reconfigure the congressional district. So when I was growing up as a kid, these districts look like geometric shapes that you could recognize from ninth grade geometry. They now look like jigsaw puzzles pursuant to whose house is where, and they try to carve out they try to carve
out their enemies. So the US actually needs a constitutional amendment on that. And so you're asking, so I want to keep going because I want to explain this to the people you have citizens United There was a very famous case in the United States called Pleusy versus Ferguson. This case had to do with racial segregation. The court ruled that you could have separate but equal facilities in the United States. And this doomed any potential for the integration of the races in the America. This was an
unmitigated disaster for the country. It was reversed by Brown versus the Board of Education. This has been a disaster for the United States. And so Justice Scalia wrote the opinion. What did he say, if you have unlimited amounts of money, it's your first Amendment right to use that money in the political process. You can set up a pack and you can spend unlimited amounts of money. And they accidentally
created a separate but equal democracy. And so now go look at the legislative accomplishments of that Congress, which is primarily a failed system now because they get nothing done. But when they do get something done, it's corporate welfare. It's kleptocracy. It's a big pharma, big food. Put fertilizer in the cheerios. No problem. I'm going to get re
elected if we do that. And you have this caribdis of nonsense is taking place inside the United States as a result of all this money flowing into the system. So that court case has to be reversed where there needs to be a constitutional amendment to make the democracy farer again. Because it's a two tiered system now, So that's how we got there. Fourteen percent approval rating for the Congress, yet a ninety four percent reelection rate for
an incumbent. So what other group of people could have a one out of five consumer rating and not care about it. It's these people because they rig the system, and the politicians are picking the voters through jerry mandering as opposed to the voters picking the politician. The United States is being victimized right now by not having the DNA to understand fascism. Everybody here in Europe understands it
because they have legacy from their families. The Americans missed it, so we have no memory of fascism, a result of which we glorify at least a group of us do people like Donald Trump. Here in Europe, they look at it and say, well, wait a minute, my grandfather died because of this, or my uncle died, and they worry about fascists.
The rights in Europe is gathering strength.
So the right in Europe is gathering strength because the wartime memories are fading, and a result of which the educational system is not pressing the people hard enough to understand the horror of what that represents, and so we don't have that in the US, and so we.
Need that bitcoin. You were an early adopter, I wish that.
You're very flattering. I wish I was an early adopter. I actually am an early adopter for an old man who grew up in traditional finance. So I was four years I had a black Rock. But I'm not an early adopter, the.
Early adopter for a preng time.
I have, yeah, and I took a lot of bullets and was involved in the FDx fiasco, which costs me a lot. But I believe long term in the technical properties of bitcoin, and I believe that the network effect if bitcoin will be incredibly valuable, and bitcoin will emerge as a digital store of value. And it may not be for my generation, it will certainly be for my
children that are thirty years younger than me. And you know, and the good news is people like Larry Fink, who when I first met with him, he hated bitcoin, but now he's been orange pilled by the bitcoiners and he has the largest, most successful ETF in his history, in black Rock's history as a result of waiting into the into the pool with us. So so you know bitcoin is here to stay, and you know it will trade in my opinion to the market capitalization of gold over the next decade.
I was going to ask you about gold because there's something funny in the markets, right, Gold up, Bitcoin up. That's a little bit counter too, Like what's going on in markets?
I don't I don't think so. I think what's going on in Marcus is that there's been a massive production and massive proliferation of fiat currency. What's going on in Marcas is a massive debt laiden society now and people are trying to figure out, well, is that sustainable. It may be sustainable for the next decade, but is sustainable for a century? Doesn't seem like it would be a result of which where can I put my money? Where I can store value and I can protect the money.
So both of those places one is five thousand year old history of storing value in and the other one is a newer technology, and so I think that there's a there's a marketplace for both of those things. And so it doesn't not make sense to me. You know that three four five percent in each of those while we're going through this, but remember you're you're operating in the United States now with six percent of the GDP is going to deficit spending. So you have to just
think about how remarkable that is. And you have to look at the scale of the percentage of the national debt to the overall GDP of the country. It's now through World War two levels, but right now we're not fighting World War two, and so you have to ask yourself, what are we doing? What are we doing? We're over promising and we're under delivering. And just for all your viewers and listeners, listen up. Deficit spending is unfunded tax liability. Okay,
someone's going to pay it. Okay, maybe it won't be you, but it'll be your grandchildren. And how will they pay it. Well, they'll depreciate the Fiat currency, they'll monetize the debt. They'll pay back the debt with dollars that are worth less than the ones that they borrowed, and that will crush living standards for the lower and middle class. And these are the people that will show up at a Bernie Sanders rally where Donald Trump rally because they're upset about it.
They don't like the fact that you're stealing their time. I'm an energy.
How come this deficit spending is not an issue in the election, it's pretty extraordinary.
Well, it's not an issue because the people that vote are older, and the people that vote that are older, they want those benefits. And Donald Trump's not stupid, Joe Biden, and both Donald Trump and Joe Biden have said, even though it's the absolute wrong thing to do, they're not going to correct the issues related to entitlement obligations in the United States. Older voters like that, they want those benefits,
and so therefore it's not an issue. But will it be an issue down the road if there's a fiscal or a debt crisis for the United States. Now, the best thing that the United States has going for it are the other countries also the US because of the predictability of the laws, the legal system, the flow of capital, the mantle of financial services, leadership, the fact that we have the largest military, and the fact that the most important commodity, oil is priced in US dollars makes the
dollar the global reserve currency. And so for all of those reasons, the US should be able to maintain its leadership if it gets the right political leaders gets the right policies. But this generation of leaders has failed the country.
We all know that.
The other question is, well, the next generation where our children do better than us? And I hope so otherwise there'll be a big crisis.
Can you see a next generation? Can you identify some people who might be the leaders of the future.
No, I can't see it off the top of my head. But I predict that they're going to be better than us. I predict that there'll be more data dependent, they'll be a little bit more technocratic than we were, and I think that they'll tighten the belt where necessary. And by the way, I mean you talk about depressing, let's talk about something optimistic. Every one of these problems is fixable. As Jack Kennedy once said, we made the problems man. He said man. Could have said man and woman when
it was nineteen sixties. So he said man and he said man can fix the problems. Okay, so maybe men and women can fix the problems. But we can fix the problems. But there's nobody in the West that has a ten or fifteen year plan to fix the problem. You know, you could fix the deficit, no problem, take twenty five years to do it. You need a bipartisan commitment but if you could explain to the American people, Look, this is what we need to do. It's not left,
it's not right, it's about right or wrong. This is the policies that we need to put in place. If we do this for twenty five years, we can bring the deficit down and we sustain the economic and therefore the national security of our country if we do this. But the current political leadership doesn't want to do so, this is.
A G seven problem. The UK has a similar problem, right.
Yeah, Well I'm speaking in an American centric gue because I'm an American, but yes, the UK has this problem. The French have this problem, the Germans have the problem. Uh yeah, this is a problem. Uh, this is a cultural problem because politicians need to get re elected to serve themselves more than they want to serve the people that they're supposedly serving. Okay, if this was about public service as opposed to personal power, we would never be making the decisions the way we're making them.
And then he's scaramuchie, thank you so much for joining us.
Okay, nice to be here. Thank you guys.
So it was a really fun conversation and it was a good insight into Donald Trump's psychology as a man who was president. My main takeaway is that Scaramucci does not think he'll be president again because he thinks the polls are off. So he says, when posters call your house in America, a lot of people say they'll vote for Trump because it sounds patriotic, but actually they'll vote for Biden, even if they're a bit.
Of shame of the.
Biden lovers loves really lucking. I haven't heard that before. You know, Brexit, we had like the secret Brexit, which is why the polls are off. So it's an interesting dynamic that he thinks it's this way around.
Yeah, well, a lot more polls for us to chew over over the coming months, not least the Bloomberg one that we're running every month. But I think talking of shameless plugs that we had at the beginning, another one coming here because we are going to be starting to make a bonus show that's going to be hitting your feeds every week, and it is to tackle this subject. This is the year of elections all around the world.
It's also the year that geopolitics is really crashing into boardrooms as well, and business people are trying to work out how to navigate all of the political turmoil that we're going to see all around this year. So our
new podcast is called voter Nomics. Voteronomics Voteronomics you heard it here first and listen every week coming soon, and we're going to be tapping into the biggest brains in the newsroom here on geopolitics and economics, including Stephanie Flanders who runs Bloomberg Economics and government all around the world.
Yeah, Allegra, Adrian Woolridge, and yourself.
It'll be fun, absolutely cult.
Wait, thanks for listening to this week's in the City from Bloomberg. This episode was hosted by me Francine Laqua with David Marriage and featuring opinion columnist Adrian Woolridge. It was produced by Somersati additional editing by Rishie bou Jay Coole. Brendan Newman is our executive producer. Sage Bauman is head of Podcasts and Special Thanks to Anthony's Karamucci, Please subscribe, review rate wherever you listen to podcasts.