Matt Barnes: Why Success Is Built on Failure, Resilience, and Hard Work | E152

watched it goes everywhere. The one thing that I was so thankful for was that she got to see me play. She was on the other end of, you know, for me to get an opportunity,

my friend Matt Barnes. Matt is a former professional basketball player who spent 14 seasons in the NBA. He's been an NBA analyst for ESPN Fox and NBC Sports. Is the co host of the very popular podcast all the smoke is the subject of the incredible documentary revolution, and is the star of the reality TV show the Barnes bunch. Matt is also the founder of athletes versus cancer, which he started after losing his mother to the disease 17 years ago. Matt, thanks for being

here. Welcome to In Search of Excellence. Thank you for having me. Long time coming. We've been trying to connect for a while. I'm glad we were able to well, I'm super excited for you to be here. Yeah, let's start with your family. You were born in San Jose, biracial family. Dad, Henry was black. Mom, Ann was white. You grew up very poor on food stamps. You had holes in

your socks and shoes. Talk to us about the night you were seven years old looking out the window and what you saw with these undercover cops and what happened with your family at that point. You guys did your research, huh? Yeah, I was, you know, very mixed neighborhood. Growing up in San Jose, black father, Italian mom, and my dad was a provider. Mom was a stay

at home mom. So my dad would be a butcher by day, and in the evenings, he would hit the streets and, you know, sell drugs and make ends meet for our family the particular night you were talking about

something he thrived in. You know, we would go to the flea markets on the weekends, and probably three out of the four times we went we, you know, he would get in the fight. So it was something he enjoyed to do, I guess, as a pastime. And, yeah, I mean, literally, I'm sitting, I'm sitting in the curtain. So for me to this black stage right here, I'm kind of seeing what's going on. And did you hear the commotion? No, we'll just we I went to the

wind. You know, I'm following my dad around, so I went to the window, and he was an unexpected not sisters are with my sister, but my sister. So if I'm so, my sister's maybe three or two. She's two years older than my brother, yeah, so my sister's about five. So just following my dad around and peeking through the window, being a nosy kid, and just kind of seeing all this happen so fast, and the fact that he was able to do that unscathed was

know? I mean, so there would be, you know, my parents were functioning drug addicts or. Or, you know, use drug functioning. Yeah, drug addicts may be the word. So we, oh, I saw a lot at an early age. I saw, obviously, it being used and sold and but didn't necessarily understand the magnitude, because it was all I know. So I kind of thought it was normal

we're riding bikes. So just just, I think, a normal five year old kid in the 80s, the night

So obviously, educationally, I wasn't up to par When I got to here, when I got to Sacramento, but yeah, racism from the jump, unfortunately and for me again, being Italian and black, I grew up in a very mixed, biracial area in San Jose, so when we came to Sacramento, My neighborhood was still mixed, but the schools that my parents put me and I went to two elementary schools, Cambridge, heights and Charles Peck, they were predominantly white, and I never understood at The time. I

never liked it. I never understood until I got older, I think, why they did it. But racism from the jump, so eight, nine years old, being called nigger and not being allowed to play particular games. And I was just like, I was I was devastated, because I'm just like, what? Like, I love sports, love being outside, but I wasn't able to play these games because of the color of my skin.

of a rainbow of kids. So not necessarily knowing what it means, but I knew it was something bad because the kids were laughing, and when they said it, they would run. So I would just chase them and try to catch them. And it got so bad that I was fighting often and getting in trouble at this new school and getting suspended. And I would, you know, and I finally told my parents what was

going on. And my mom was a consoler and wanted to love and, yeah, well, it got there because of what I'm about to tell you. But my dad is, is old school, and, you know, disrespect is met with combat, you know what I mean? So my dad would say, you know, they call you nigga, fight him. And my mom would, no, that's not there. But I always looked up to my dad from that standpoint. So I started getting in fights to kind of just, I guess, demand my respect at a

young age. I didn't know I was demanding my respect, but obviously, you know, in hindsight, looking back, that's what I was doing. And I was getting in so many fights that my mom finally started coming to the school, and she would watch me on my breaks. So, you know, we had a little 15 minute break. We'd have lunch, and then it'd be a 15 minute break before school got out. So she would be there during recess. And again, you know, charismatic, loving,

loved kids. And you know, I think maybe after a year or two of her just kind of coming to make sure I stay out of mischief, they gave her a job as a yard duty. So she started off kind of just watching us as breaking at recess and ended up being a special ed teacher before she ended up passing.

close to some of them. And, you know, being able to go to their houses and seeing their have multiple cars and their own room and video games like all this is new to me. Like I didn't grow up with any of this. So, yeah, the first time I actually sat down at a family dinner table was with a friend of mine, Jeff and his family. And, you know, they had all the. Food in the middle and past this and past that, I'm just like, oh, okay, cool.

dinner, a fancy dinner. She never in a restaurant before, so she looking around and didn't know how to use the fork or knife, and you could tell it's very intimidating for did you feel intimidated?

So I often kind of again, once I kind of found my acceptance, I would find friends that wouldn't mind me staying the whole weekend. Sometimes, you know, I would come home after school with them Friday and not, you know, go to school with them Monday morning and then go back to school, excuse me, then go home after that. So I was kind of always looking for a better

opportunity. I guess I got a, you know, a taste out of the better life, and it was something that kind of really piqued my interest and I enjoyed. We love

what I mean? And again, I didn't really get to crack into my dad, into his mental until my mom passed. You know, my mom, it'll it was, it was 17 years ago, probably, like a week ago, that she had passed from cancer. And when she had passed, I was in the NBA at the time, right the beginning of a season, and it was the first time that, you

know, I saw my dad cry. It was the first time that He kind of broke down and apologized to me my brother and sister, and my sister was kind of the first one to kind of dig into, you know, kind of his, his, his, his childhood, and understand that, you know, he was beat by his mom and fed dog food and had to sleep on the floor like he had a terrible upbringing. So looking at that situation and being a little bit older, like obviously, you know you forgive and you forget and you forgive,

you never forget. But you know, to me, it was never too late to be a father, because I felt like at that point, when I lost my mom, that I was gaining a dad, because he was starting to open up to me for the first time my life at 27 and just kind of understanding the childhood trauma and abuse he had gone through, and he had tried just transfer that to, you know, his family.

again, yeah. Second time you did that, you got suspended for six days. Principal didn't believe you had the KKK tried to burn down your school. Walk us through that whole incident. And again, as a as a teenager, getting a lot of fights. What are you thinking at that point? Well,

You know what I mean? So just excited about the opportunity. And my sister comes to me again for the for the second time. The first time she told me, you know, go tell the principal, go tell this, and hopefully they'll handle it. They didn't. So the second time she comes to me, I'm a senior, and I have an open fourth so I'm done after my third period. So she comes and finds me and is crying with a couple of her girlfriends, and I can see the spit in her hair, and I'm like, what happened?

She's like, you know, this like, you know, this boy called me a nigger and spit on me. And I just saw red. I didn't really know, I didn't know how to, kind of and unfortunately for him, he was walking past. And, you know, I did what any big brother would do, you know? I mean, I got my hands on them and I heard him. And after that, we were dragged

to the principal's office. And as I'm explaining, with my the spit still in my sister's hair, like this kid's been harassing my sister, calling her racial slurs, literally spit on her. Nah, his dad's a prominent they didn't believe us. His dad's a prominent lawyer in this city.

He wasn't raised that way. And I'm just like so you see the spit, you know that I'm probably the biggest athlete to ever come out of the school outside of dusty Baker, two months away from going to UCLA, and you think, I'm just gonna beat this kid up for no reason. So pretty much, that's how they took it. Absolutely no support from them while I'm suspended. You know, they come and vandalize the school, hang a mannequin from the oak tree with my football

jersey on a die. Nigger swastikas everywhere burned down a bathroom. And it was, it was crazy. The NAACP came out from LA to come down and support and for a while there was Rocky, you know, my, you know, they threatened to kill me, so we had moved to just a different area, and had around the clock security for a little while. And it was, it was really just an eye opening experience. And I think what was most hurtful about it was that I didn't have the support of a school that I

kind of put on my back. You know what I mean? I did everything for that school, and, you know, dominated in football and dominated in basketball, and I think the one time I needed them outside of sports, I was met with we

right now? You know, this is 1997 so this is pre phones, kind of pre, like, you had to be there to see it, you know what I mean? And it was just, it hurt, but I didn't allow it to be hurt. It was more fire. And actually, after that game, my dad and I almost got in a fight with some of the kids that were wearing cowboy boots and cowboy hats that had the bananas like they thought that they can continue to talk. And that definitely wasn't gonna happen

with me. But I got my fire from my dad, so we were ready to, you know, fight these five or six kids at this school until, you know, the police kind of intervened. But it was, unfortunately, in certain areas, it was, it was normal. People are taught to hate. They're not born. Yeah, absolutely, it's a taught trait, just like love is a taught trait. And unfortunately, not, you know, we saw it years before I came

around. We I saw it as a teenager, and unfortunately, we still see it, you know, to this day. So it's it's a hard thing to swallow, you know what I mean? And me, not only did I get it from the white side, I would get it from the black side too, because I wasn't white enough for the white kids, and I wasn't black enough for the black kids. And I love my dad. His answer was to fight. You want your respect, you got to go get it. And I had to fight kids for

calling me white boy. Black kids call me white boy, or white kids calling me nigger. So it was just a constant until I had fought enough that people understand, Okay, well, maybe we could still be racist or mess with people. Just don't mess with him, you know, I mean, because I had to, you know, I had to fight often.

like, I kind. Like that smell, obviously, much more than the cigar. I hate to this day. I'm a cannabis advocate. Smoke a lot of cannabis. I've never tried a cigarette one time or any of the heavier drugs. But, you know, cannabis piqued my interest at maybe I hate to even say it like 567, years old, because I like the way it smelled. And then fast forward to 14 years old. You know, took some of my dad's weed and tried it, got a terrible headache, but I wasn't

took it. He didn't give it to I took it on a joint in the drawer. Took a nut, yeah, took took it and went and smoked and got a terrible headache and passed out by yourself. No friend, no. A friend of mine, a friend of mine, Jesse was with me, a little white kid that lived down the street from me. So he had a little, little rat tail. But rat tails used to be cool back in the day, you know, we dipped off and smoked it, and

it gave me a headache. I wanted to go to sleep, but I wasn't a quitter, you know what I mean? So I tried it, I tried it. I tried it a couple more times, and kind of found that it kind of just, it mellowed me out. It silenced the noise. It helped me sleep better, and it helped me focus. So from right there, I wouldn't say I was hooked, because obviously I didn't have the money to be hooked, but I would socially smoke with my

friends. I had a lot of majority of my friends from high score white so again, with my upbringing, and I saw everything under the sun. So they started dabbling in cocaine, and they started popping norcos and all these other pills that it just didn't interest me. But whenever we would smoke, I'd be like, I'm all for that. Bullying

going to set me apart? How am I going to find time when I'm playing with five all Americans like, what is going to end? It was just that fire of trauma, abuse, racism, and I just think, you know, my parents raised a little dog, you know what I mean, I was outside from, I literally remember. I was thinking about this other day, like I played outside from, like, four or five years old

until I went to college. You know, I was still, when I get home from school, in high school, I would still go out and find some hoop somewhere to hoop or, you know, go do something. So I was just outside, and at that, you know, the the streets really raised me. And, you know, if you grow up outside, that's where you get, you know, your first kiss is out there, your first fights are normally in the

neighborhood. You know, you play in the creek and you're building forts and you're climbing trees and you're so I was just one of those kids that grew up outside, and I think it all the stuff that happened to me, I kind of really hardened me. And it it really to me. It propelled me through college and allowed me to have an opportunity MBA, because, like I said, I was the one that wasn't supposed to make it. You know me. You had a we had the number one, the back to back recruiting classes for

UCLA. 1997 class was, I think, to all Americans, but the number one recruiting class, and then my class had four McDonald's all Americans, and then me. So I was an all American, but these guys were higher ranked all Americans. They played in the big McDonald's game. But, you know, I was the one at all, both teams. My the sophomores that were sophomores when I was freshmen, like, I ended up, you know, having, you know, a longer

career than all those guys. And I think it was just kind of my heart in the fire inside of me.

football was what we play. We play tackle on the grass. And then as we got a little bit older, we actually started playing tackle in the streets. So it was just, you grew up rough, you know, skinned up knees and elbow. And hips and everything. But it was just, I guess, a part of being the kids in the 80s, and as I continued to get bigger, I'm just like, okay, like, then I started getting stronger, and just football was easy to me. Like,

basketball I picked up. Started taking basketball serious, probably seventh, eighth grade, because I kept getting bigger, but football was always my love and always my passion. Recruited to play both. But just by the time I was done growing, I didn't really see too many six, eight receivers in the NFL, and I just didn't know if there would be longevity there, so I chose basketball. But basketball was something I had to really, really, really work at to make At

then obviously going to UCL. I think one of the greatest benefits, outside of how amazing the school is and the lifelong connections, was every summer, all the pros come up to the men's gym. So 17, just turned 18, and I'm out here in the summertime playing with COVID and Shaq and Paul Pierce and you name it, all these guys are in the gym on our campus. I'm like, holy shit. So that was kind of really like my crash course too. Okay, if you want to be able to play this next level, this is

the level of competition. So I think we got a cheat code, because every summer, we were able to play against the best players in the world because they were on our campus, training and playing. You could just

they were our leader. So, you know, it'd be us, and, you know, then and a couple more guys, and we would go out there and we would hang we would definitely be able to hold our own, you know, I mean, we were a scrappy young team. And then my first year actually, was the 1998 NBA lockout. So as starting, I'm coming from Sacramento, small town. I'm in LA now, I get to play a little bit in the summer with these pros, and then the

NBA goes into a lockout. And next thing I know, it's like, our games are like Leger games, you know? I mean, all the stars are coming to our games. Shaq and Kobe were coming to our games. Like the whole gym would stop when they would come in, they was just like, You know what? I mean, so it was kind of like a star studded event. But I'm like, damn, this is what LA is like, you know? I mean, like my first year, my crash course was, you know, we were the main center of attention and then the

main attraction. Until the NBA started, we were out in the town, whooping it up and doing all we did. I'm not gonna lie, Randy, we were out there. We were having fun. I mean, I'm in Hollywood parties and going to premieres and meeting stars. And it was as fun as it was, I was still homesick my first year, so I'm trying to get home twice a month, you know, catch a ride

with someone from NorCal. You know, you put on the bulletin boards anyone going up north, you know, in the dorms, and you'd find someone, and sometimes I'd ride with a stranger, you know, a student, but a stranger up north, I chip in on gas or, you know, you know, scrounge up enough money to buy a plane ticket, but I was still as much fun as I was having I was still homesick, because it just wasn't LA. Wasn't my lifestyle. You know

what I mean? It became my lifestyle, but it wasn't my lifestyle to start.

coach, great motivator. We always had really good teams, and he just took a liking to me, I think, because obviously I was so good. He saw something in me, and was just, you know, to this day, someone I still talk to, just golf with them in this past, you know, past summer. So Coach Kenyon is someone who will be near and dear to my heart when I actually won a championship with the Warriors. I retired after that year, so I wasn't there for the ring ceremony the beginning of the

year. So the Warriors planned this ceremony for me to get my ring, and somehow they got a hold of coach Kenyon, and Coach Kenyon was the one that presented me my ring when I went back to Golden State and got my championship ring. So they surprise you that night. Yeah, Draymond called me out, but next thing I know, I'm like, What the fuck is Coach Kenyon doing out there? And he's the one, and I actually had bought rings for my twins too. So my twins are seven

or eight at the time. And yeah, Coach Kenyon, you know, is the one that handed me my ring. So. It was perfect, special night too, as a 10 year anniversary of your mom's 10 year anniversary. Yeah, it was, a lot of things fell into place and it wasn't planned, which was crazy. You know, a lot of things fell into place that night. It happened to be the 10 year anniversary of my mom's death. My twins were there, young, young youngsters.

They're 16 now, but I think they were seven or eight at the time. And, you know, to get the kind word from Draymond, and just, just to be able to be around those guys for a little while, it was dope. We're

monster. I'm like, God damn. So I didn't even feel good until, like the Western Conference, I've played a few minutes here and there, and so it really but instead of, you know, obviously being an NBA vet at that time, you know, it's it's not, it's not an individual thing. It's not, it's not a time to pout. It was hard for me individually,

but I would never show that. I would be in my practice, busting my ass and running, trying to get back in shape, making my ankle feel better, and then just being supportive for the guys, you know what I mean, to be there with Katie and Steph and clay and Dre and Iggy and all those guys and coach Kerr like, it was just such a dope environment to be in. So personally, it was really hard for me to accept that. Obviously, I'm almost eight years removed from that

situation now. So obviously, now, when I look back, obviously my body of work, I think I deserved it, but I just thought in the moment that I didn't necessarily deserve that ring, because I kind of felt like I got a free pass. You know, I was court sized with the rest of the high paying people on the other side, watching this incredible team, night in, night out. Do what they do.

were definitely so 17. So a 17 is when you line up on one side the court, long way, but you go sideways, so you go 17 times and probably under a minute. So it's a really, it's a push, and then sometimes you would have to go nine sideways. Or if you do line drills, people know line drills, full core line drill. So we were probably the most in shape team in the country. I just felt in looking back and obviously talking like we didn't learn a

ton from him. But I think again, what balanced that was being able to play in the summertime with all those pros, where it wasn't so much structure, you just got to go out there and hold your own. And I think that's what really helped our teams. We would have mediocre team on my freshman year team, I want to say we probably had six or seven pros, but we still never won a conference, never really made huge noise in the tournament, but it was still the college I say, outside of having

kids, is, is, is the best. I put my college experience above my MBA experience, to be honest with you, because I have lifelong friends. Just loved UCLA to death, had a blast there. Let's

there. Wow. So you got all these guys you coach right now, including your kids. We talked about a friend of our son. What are you telling these kids about the odds of make it? And how do you motivate them to keep going, to try to make it?

soon as I retired. So, you know, I tell the parents, they got to get better on their own time as far as skill set, but when they come to me, I'm going to teach them the mental side of the game and how hard, because all those crazy numbers you say, not that some of those kids aren't good enough or the odds worked against them, but it's just a mental game. I've seen so many people better than me, and, you know, all stars, all Americans, that just never got an opportunity. And most of the

time it's up here. You know, whether you, you know, you think you're a Kobe Bryant level score, or you think you're bigger than the Pro, where there's just a lot, there's so much shit that goes into it. So I say 90% of the game is mental. You know, once you get to that top level. And in whatever profession you're in, everyone could pretty much do everything. So what is going to allow you to either excel as a grow on to be a star, or just maintain in that

league? And I just think it's your mindset and your approach to everything you do. And obviously, when you're younger, I got lucky where I came into when I came into the NBA, it was an older League. You know that there was bets that were, you know, I'm coming in at 2122 I got guys on my team that are 38 you know, 3840 years old. So whether they're playing or not, they're giving back to guys like me, helping me, you know, avoid pitfalls, and some of the horror stories you hear about the women

are blowing all your money. So I came into a league that, you know, guys wrapped their arm around me, and one guy particularly was Chris Weber, you know, huge fan of Chris, big brother, almost a father figure to me in my earlier days of my NBA, because I wasn't really getting a chance to play. So I was, you know, debating, all right, I know I was really good at football. I'm gonna, I'm gonna start. And I would tell my agent, like, Hey, I'm gonna give

this one more try. And I did it and I did it, and it didn't work. I'm gonna give this one more try, because I was in the NBA, I just wouldn't get a chance to play. And, you know, luckily, this one time, but one summer, this summer, so I played four years, and I didn't I played when I first started at the clippers, and then when I went to the kings, I went back to my hometown team, because I was playing there in the summertime with those guys, and I wanted to play with them, so I

signed the deal there. But when I signed the deal there, Chris ends up getting traded to the 70 Sixers to play with Iverson, and I'm a throw in at that point, so I'm just I help fill out that trade. And when I go to Philly, I don't get any opportunity to play. So it's two years of cold weather and a lot of cannabis smoking, and I'm kind of doubting myself at that time, like I'm not getting any minutes. Am I good enough? What do I need to do to get out

there? And Chris was someone who continued to just stay in my ear and encourage me to work. And I got a shooting coach, and I just put in a ton of work. And when I finally got a real opportunity to play that following year, I took advantage of it.

like, okay, cool. First round comes, cool. So watching these pics, I mean, I'm watching, but, yeah, but I'm watching, but I'm acting like. I'm not like, you know, I'm just like, I don't want to seem like I'm pressed, you know what I mean, so I'm watching, but I'm not so your heart's beating out of your chest, yeah? Because I just the uncertainty, you know, maybe

uncertainty. So I actually, you know, dip off at one point and smuggle joint, you know, like, I think it was after, like, the 33rd pick, 34th pick, and I'm seeing guys that I was better than and out played in college, and I'm thinking, like, Damn, what if I don't get drafted? How embarrassing? Like, I'm thinking, like, if I don't get drafted, how embarrassing is it going to be that all these people came out to support me, and lo and behold, the 46 pick to Memphis was a huge exhale.

But then, as soon as I got picked, I was traded for Wesley person, and I forgot one other person. So I went from Memphis to Cleveland draft night, and from there,

You know, you'll be back up here one day. So from there, I go back home, and it's, it's a huge. Bear Smith, you know, I mean, because I was supposed to be the one that made it, although I wasn't supposed to be the one that made it, I showed that I could make it so. And then, you know, I get drafted, and everyone thinks, oh, you're an instant millionaire. Like it. It doesn't work that way. So I get cut maybe two weeks into training camp, and then I get opportunity to go to the D

league. This is before it was the G League. It was the second year in existence. So it was the NBA minor league program, kind of like a farm system for baseball, and it's obviously a lot bigger now, but when I got there, it was the second year. So I'm in Fayetteville, North Carolina. J Cole is from there, but I was back there when, before anyone knew what Fayetteville North Carolina was.

And the funny part about it was, it was a it was a military or an army town or military, I'm not exactly sure what, but there was a big thing was an army base there, and there was always fights on the weekends. And I'd be like, Yo, why are they? Why

is there always fights? And they're just like, you know, well, these guys are coming back home, and their women have been out running the streets, and then the husbands come home, and it's just when I tell you, every single time I went out, I saw two or three fights, I'm like, damn, this is crazy. So long story short, man, I'm grinding there, playing well. The coach has a son that went to North Carolina that was a highly touted all American, and I beat

him out in training camp. I feel like I'm the best player on the team. I'm playing really well, but then I get hurt, and when I get hurt, it opens up the door for his son to come in and start and then once I got healthy, I was playing spot minutes, so I was looking at the G league or the D league as a pit stop. But you know, while we're there, we're staying in run down hotels and bus ride, nasty eight hour,

10 hour bus rides. If we did fly, it'd be like the La Bamba plane, like I'd rather walk than be on some of these planes that they had put us on. So it was just the early inception of the league, and it was, it was nasty, but really, that was what, you know, kind of sparked, really lit the fire in me, I guess, to be like, you know, I know I'm better than this. I know I can be on that next level. I just have to show it. So unfortunately, I didn't really get a chance to show it

there. I showed it the first half of the season, I got hurt, and I didn't really play the much in the second half of the season, I the season the following summer. No teams are really biting. So I have to go to something called the ABA, I think is called a team in Long Beach. So this is where, you know, we're going to Juarez

Mexico to play games. And as if the Long Beach jam, Long Beach jam, what a name Long Beach gym, going to Juarez, Mexico, and just all these oddball little gyms, terrible gyms to play in. Actually, our gym was cool, though we played in the pyramid at Long Beach State, but all the other gyms were nasty, and this is where Dennis Rodman and I first crossed paths, because he's trying to get back in the NBA. So one day, next thing, I'm like, Dennis Rodman walks into

practice. I'm like, What the fuck is Dennis Rodman doing here with his with his pit bull and his entourage and the coach, like, Hey guys, we got a new player. I'm like, what Dennis Rodman? So Dennis is there, but unfortunately, I'm only with Dennis for, like, probably a week and a half, because I'm playing really well. I'm putting up big numbers. And, you know, once Dennis got there, I probably played maybe two or three games with Dennis, and then I got called up to the

clip. To the Clippers for a 10 day and a 10 day contract is pretty much a tryout. You get 10 days to kind of show what you're worth. And my first 10 days went really good, played well. Then I got a second 10 day. Played well. And then after the second 10 They'd either have to let you go or sign you for the rest of the year. And luckily, Mike Dunleavy was the Head Head Coach of the Clippers at that time, decided to sign me for the rest of the year, and then that's when my journey

representing sac. You know, everyone's talking shit, and it's a big thing with COVID and Webb and all the Shaq and all these guys. So, but every summer when I'm not at UCLA, I'm going home, and Chris has me come up to the kings facility. So I'm training with these pros every you know, strength training and hanging out and, you know, getting to know him better. And Jason Williams at the time, then they traded Jay Whalen, got Mike Bibby, so I'm hanging out with

all these guys. So after my first season with the clippers, I don't spend it in LA like I'm excited. I made it. I want to go home and blow the money I made and but while I'm training, I'm training at this facility. So, you know, Rick Adelman had asked me, like, what was going on? I was like, you know, there's some interest from the clippers. He's like, I really like what you've done this summer here. You know, everyone's been raving about the kind of person you're on, how

hard you work. He's like, you want an opportunity to play here? And I'm just like, hell yes, I'm, you know, get a chance to play for my hometown team. So season comes. I'm backing up pages, still out COVID, just one of the greatest shooters of all time, but I'm still getting solid minutes. I'm getting, you know, 15 to 20 minutes a game until they decide to trade Chris, and they try to decide to trade Chris, I think, right before the all star break. So

maybe. Be late January, early February, and I was heartbroken, heartbroken because, again, I'm playing for my hometown team. My family's coming to the game every night. I'm playing, I'm playing on a good team, and then all of a sudden, you know, I find out I'm a part of the trade that sent me, or excuse me, that sent Chris to Philly. And, you know, for two years it was tough out there. The

good team. So it was just, you know, I stepped I remember that game was at Dallas too, and I, you know, Rick trusted me, and, you know, I knew what I had to do, and I went out there and played

of player i was. And again, I think I made a huge mistake by going to the kings, because they kind of got me on the carousel of, you know, obviously moving out to Philly, and then when you don't play, I think the thin line between having a long career, obviously, is a lot of mental but it's just opportunity. And I didn't get any opportunity in Philly, one of the coaches was mo cheeks, and he was an asshole, and kind of made it his goal to kind of

fuck with me. Fuck with me, and that almost ended really bad for him. But, you know, I'm so I play with the clippers on a 10 day half the season, and then I take a jump to Sacramento, and I'm playing the first half of the season, then I don't play at all when I go to Philly. So the next year and a half, two seasons, I'm just sitting on the bench. I'm just there, and it's just like, so you know, after that season, I didn't really have no phones ringing. I didn't know, really know what I was

going to do. So my UCLA teammate, Baron Davis, had just got traded to the warriors, and I was at home in Sacramento, and he calls me up one morning, like, Hey, we're going to play some pickup up here. Do you want to come up? I'm like, shit. All right, I'll drive down. So I take the hour and a half drive from Sacramento to the bay, go out there that that day and play really well, not knowing the head coach, Don Nelson, was watching. He was up in his office, and he was watching us

play that day. And we get done, and you know, we're shooting some free throws after, and I'm literally about to walk out of the gym, and he comes down and kind of puts his arm around me. He's like, he's like, Hey, where are you going to camp at son? I'm just like, Coach, I don't know. I don't have nowhere. And he's just like, I really like what I saw today. He's just like, we have a full training camp roster. You know, we have 19 guys, 16 or 14 are

guaranteed. 13 are guaranteed. I think 16 are partially guaranteed. He's like, I can't promise you anything, but if you come and show what you did today, day in, day out, I give you an opportunity. And to me, that was all I needed, because the coaches in Philly didn't even give me that opportunity.

So when he kind of instilled that confidence in me, I just I was a man on the mission, and whether I had to fight you, slap you, or just play basketball like my I was going to make that team, so I ended up, you know, being the last, and I think I was the 20th guy coming to training camp, and beat out the three guys or four guys invited to camp, beat out their partially guaranteed guys. And I

make that team. And to start that season, I'm at the end of the bench, but I'm happy to be there, and I know that this coach believes in me, so I know that I'm gonna get an opportunity, and as I would get these little minute, few minutes here, a few minutes there, I would make the most of it. I'd knock down a few threes, I would play defense, I'd get rebounds, I'd dive on the floor. And my leash became to get a lot

longer. And I went from the last guy invited to camp to one of the last guys on the bench, to the first or second guy off the bench to starting all in the same year.

gone tomorrow, you know. So nothing was ever handed to me, so to be rewarded for my hard work and have a coach that believed in me, and then again, now I'm only an hour and a half away from home, so I'm not too far away from home, so I still got family coming to all the games. My parents are driving the hour and a half trip from Sac to the bay to come watch every home game. So I'm in a really good situation. Already talked about your mom

should go play football. I don't know what I'm gonna do, like she was on the other end of, you know, a lot of those conversations. So, you know, for me to get an opportunity, and that season that we had before the season where I, you know, grinded and made the warriors, we made NBA history that year.

You know, that was the year that, you know, my now co host, Stephen Jackson, he gets traded to our team the end of January, and we're at the bottom of the Western Conference, and we win like 19 out of 23 or 19 out of 24 games to steal the last spot in the playoffs. The Clippers lost, and we won and we were in. And then we were playing against Dirk and whiskey in the Dallas Mavericks. Dirk is the MVP that season. I think they win 67

games. But our coach, Don Nelson was the one that was over in Dallas first, and him and Mark Cuban had some kind of falling out before he left, so Nelly felt like that first round game or series against Dallas was our championship. I mean, he was on it. We were so well prepared. This is the first time that they ever put smaller players on Dirk. So myself and Steven Jackson were guarding Dirk, and we were slowing them down, and we were double teaming them, and we just frustrated the shit out

of that team. So we were able to make NBA history, the first eight seed to be a number one seed in seven games. It happened before, but it never happened in seven games. So that happened, and then we ended up losing the next round. So my mom is a part of all that, you know, so she's in the crowd and, you know, hanging out. And my parents would even come out and sometimes go to the clubs with us after the games, like they were just so proud of me and

happy that they're around. And I love the fact that she got to see that because again, as you said, that season hit, I'm going back to Golden State for my second season, and the season starts beginning of November. Back then she was, I remember, we just got on a plane. We had just got done playing the Supersonics, and I get a call from her as I'm stepping on the plane, and she's crying. I'm like, What the fuck is going on? And she's like, Baby, I'm sick. I'm like, what's wrong? She's

like, I have cancer. I'm like, What do you mean, you got cancer? She's like, Yeah, and it's bad. Like, what's bad? She's like, it's stage four and it's all over my body. I'm like, Well, don't worry. You know, like, UCLA has one of the best cancer research programs. Research programs, like, I'm gonna get you. She's like, No, baby, it's not like that. I'm like, What do you mean? She's like, it's bad. I'm just like, so we kind of cry a little bit

on that phone. And then as soon as I get back to the bay, I drive up there and kind of find out that it's spread all throughout her body. She had two huge, softball sized lumps in her chest, and the scan was so blurry that her whole upper body was just filled with cancer. So unfortunately, she passed, you know, in 26 days of being diagnosed, and that was probably one of the hardest things I've ever had to go through. Because, again, our family had been through so much to get to that

point. My parents, believe it not, were still together at that point, and I'd finally made it. And you know, my goal was, you know, my mom was, you know, telling me that okay, because I was, I used to tell my mom once I got a little older, like, Mom, this isn't for you. Like, why don't you leave? You know what I mean? But women back then were very dependent on the whoever brought the money home. It wasn't, there wasn't independent women back in the 80s and 90s,

you know, where I came from. So my goal was always to buy my mom a house that was going to be my first thing to do. And when I finally started making the money to be able to do that, you know, I lost her.

coming out to see my house. You know, he been in my house saying thank you. And I remember thinking like, you know, making my grandmother proud was a huge moment in my life as well. Talk to us about the special memory of your Mohawk and what that meant to you guys.

hell is a half Mohawk? He's like, trust me, and I did this haircut. And when I tell you again, I wasn't the star on that team, I was definitely a prominent role player on that team. That haircut was so famous in the Bay Area. Man, it was crazy. They ended up calling it a faux hawk. Like, it's just. Forward. Part of my hair was up, and it was dope. And I think for maybe, like, the next two or three years, four years, every time I got to the playoffs, I would do it and kind of honor my

mom. So that was cool. That was a fun time, man. That's when I first really, really jumped on the NBA scene. And I was known and recognized everywhere where I went, because I we had a team of misfits. You know what I mean? We were one of those teams

that we were wild. And this is back, obviously, when cannabis is legal now in the league, but we were smoking weed every night in the clubs, every night drinking, having fun, hanging out, but then we would always bust our ass the next day in the game, like we were a team that hung out and kicked it and went hard off the court, but went really hard on the court too. So it was just a it was a special

time in my life. And kind of really, although it was my fifth year into the NBA, I kind of felt like it was almost like my first year, because it was the first year I really got to play, and I kind of kind of became a household name after

energy about her. But I say all that to say that my mom passed November 27 2008 and the twins came the following year, almost a year, you know, after my mom passed. So the one thing I wish was she just would have got to see my kids. You know what? I mean. That's the one, not necessarily regret, but I just wish that, you know, as loving as she was and so motherly, that I wish that she would have got a chance to meet, you know, my twins.

Bill Amber can come over. And so I said, Okay, so I scheduled some of my boys from Detroit, country. They were Chris, yeah, Chris went there, right? Yes. So are you guys the same time? So he was a freshman at Country Day when I was a freshman at Michigan. Okay. Oh, so you guys miss the other about four years.

We miss each other. But the interesting thing is, as a freshman, he played at Chrysler, Country Day was in the finals division C is a small, you know, monster, tomahawking over as a freshman, sharing and everyone as a 1414, so Bill Amber comes out, you know, I call my friends from Detroit. You know, they fly in to see this. And it's now three on three, because I want to take advantage of the house. Come on. Oh, you came to the house, yeah, came to my house and playing shit. That's dope.

So it was very cool. But the guy's like, 610 and he's not really in shape then, but it doesn't matter. Like, I'm six two and a half and I'm the tallest guy, yeah, so it's like, I'm playing against Bill.

chance to play again. It was just I was on fire, playing with my hair on fire. So I was just again, if I had to play basketball, if I had to protect my teammates, I was taught at an early age to protect your family at all costs. So I was I had a dad that my brother sister got in a fight. No matter what happened, if I didn't get into it or protect them, I was gonna get my ass whooped. So I've always been a protector, always. So that's how I kind of translated that into the NBA.

You know, I lost probably close to 600 700,000 in the league. And it was never because for being fine, for being fine, yeah, it was never really because guys were messing with me. It was always because I was coming to the defense of my teammates. So I was a guy that you just, you just knew that you had to work that night playing

against me. I was gonna, you know, constant energy, I'm gonna rebound, I'm gonna knock down shots, I'm gonna play hard, physical defense, kind of, because I grew up watching the bad boys, the pistons, and I grew up, you know, watching magic. And I was a football player at heart, you know what I mean? So I love the physicality. So I was just one of those guys. Again, it's just like, you know,

again. I wasn't the guy averaging 20 or 30, but I feel like I affected a lot of games just with my energy and my attitude and how hard I played. So I was just someone that, you know, the teams just, you know, like, damn, I gotta deal with him tonight. That kind of thing. You

damn. So I used to, he used to come in and train in poly pavilion after we were done practicing. So I would sometimes go back in poly and just watch him. I'm just like, damn, this dude's only two years older than me. Like, he's fucking good. Like, I would just watch COVID. So it was an admiration at first, and kind of being able to see him and like, oh, la, la. We got to see him grow from like a boy to a man. So I was really a huge fan of Coby at first, because I just saw the work he

would put in. His mother worked his ass off. So, you know, fast forward me making the league, and I'm finally starting to play like I didn't. I missed MJ by a year. So COVID was the man. So he was the one that, back in those those UCLA days when I was playing, he was a kind of the barometer, like, man, if I'm gonna be able to I gotta be able

to guard someone like him. So, fast forward to 2009 Orlando, versus the Lakers the year before, they played in the finals, and the Lakers had got them, so they were expecting these teams to go back, and Orlando had reloaded. They got me, Vince Carter and Jason Williams in the off season, so we were expected to compete in the finals. So this is a march game. You know, playoffs starting April. So it was just a

chippy early playoff pup. You know, they were dubbing it as a potential final preview, and we were just going back and forth. And knowing COVID, playing against COVID, COVID was a mental giant. I mean, obviously physically skilled, and worked his ass off and can scores. But he was also did a lot of just dirty COVID shit that the rest wouldn't call because he was COVID. He would elbow, grab, do

all kinds of shit. And I just got he had elbowed me and my sternum and, like, knocked the wind out of me, and I wanted to, like, chase him down and beat him up at that point, like, literally on the court. But this one particular inbounds play, and it was dope, because we had COVID last interview on all the smoke, and we literally talked that. It was the first time we had ever talked about it, and I told him, like, I wanted to fuck you up. I wanted to fight you.

And he starts, kind of started laughing, but the whole thing was, he was just doing shit that the rest weren't calling, and I was getting called for, and I was pissed off, so I was just like, I wanted to fight him. So, you know, the ball fake wasn't premeditated. It kind of just happened. We ended up winning. I had a big three down the down the stretch to clinch the game. Fast forward, end of the season, we're in the Eastern Conference Finals, and we lose to Boston.

So Boston and the Lakers play in the finals. COVID gets his revenge from a previous years of losing to Boston. They win again. And then that off season, contracts got little funny. I was hurt. I was going to get a certain amount of money, and then when it was my turn to re up, that money wasn't there anymore. So I was a little disappointed that I felt like I had been lied to and let on. So I was open to moving because I wasn't. I didn't really, you know, want the money that was

being offered at the time. So I'm talking to Pat Riley, and for context, this is the year that. It the under. You know, on the low that the Miami Heat are forming their big three. So LeBron is headed there, Chris Bosh is headed there. And I'm talking to Pat Riley, you know, talked to D Wade one time, and, you know, Pat's telling me, like, you know, our closing lineup will be, you know, Dwayne you, Mike Miller, Dwayne you, Mike Miller, Braun and Chris

Bosh. And I'm thinking, like, we could do some damage with that lineup. So I'm thinking that I'm gonna go from Orlando, just up the freeway to Miami, and I get a call from a number I don't know. And people tell you now that even know me, like, I sometimes I don't answer numbers that I do know. But for some reason this day, I picked up the phone and it was someone, what's up is Matt there. I'm like, this. Matt was like, Who's this? He's like, it's COVID. Like, get the fuck out of you. Like, who's

this? He's like, Nah, man, it's COVID. And then once he said it again, I was like, Oh, it really is COVID. I was like, What's up, man? He says, Ah, man, what's going on? I was like. I was like, congratulations on the championship. He's like, I appreciate it. And we kind of start talking, you know, he's like, anyone crazy enough to fuck with me is crazy enough? To play with me, like, what are you gonna do this season? So this season? So I kind of tell him, I

might be going to Miami. He's like, Well, do you want to be a Laker, you know? And I told you, I was raised a Magic Johnson Laker fan. I'm like, hell yeah, I want to be a Laker. And literally, like, three or four days later, I was a Laker. Like, I had signed, flew out to LA, signed the contract, and, you know, that kind of began. And it was weird too, because even up

to this day. Like some people like, oh, you you know, COVID didn't fuck with you, or you guys weren't just, like, if they knew how close we really were. Like, he literally recruited me to the team. He recruited Ron our test the season before he's I guess he was just tired of dealing with us assholes. He's just like, I'm gonna get these two assholes on my team. So me and RON are Lakers now, but we really got a chance to just

bond. You know, we went from, you know, an admiration I had for him because I saw his come up, and then obviously the respect I had because he was the best player in the league at the time. But you know, just day to day, seeing his work ethic and hanging out with him off the court and going out. And everyone used to say, like, Yo, COVID never went out. You used to get COVID. Want to go out with me, you know? I mean, every we had a I had a tradition.

Every time I would we'd go on the road, like, as soon as I land, I'd go in the bathroom and put all the towels down to smoke, because I was smoked every time we landed. So COVID would hit me like, Oh, what are you about to do? You know, I'm about to smoke. He's like, when you're done smoking, let me know. Let's go do let's go get some food and let's go out. He smoke. No, he wouldn't. He told me, If we won a championship together, we would smoke. But we, unfortunately, we didn't.

But for some reason, he took to me and and I think, you know, obviously we were super close teammates, but I think we became closer post career, because he started coaching Gigi and I was coaching the twins, so we would always go out to Orange County and play. And, you know, one time, yeah, so it wasn't a mama, then that was just OGP out there. Mom facility came later, but I remember, backtrack a

little bit. I remember right when I remember right when I got to the Lakers, you know, COVID took the twins in like they were his, like it was always uncle. COVID probably say the twins were maybe four years old when they started getting every time COVID released Austin and no, this is Carter and Isaiah, every city, yeah, Austin's the new four year old area, four month old, yeah, five months, yeah, yeah. So, every time COVID released a shoe, the twins would

get it. And then when they started playing basketball teams, he was in the whole team shoe. So, you know, fast forward me being retired now, and as soon as I retired, I want to start coaching my kids. So, you know, he'd be out in Orange County. We, you know, connect like, yeah, what time you guys, what time Gigi play tomorrow? What time do you guys play

tomorrow? And it would be sometimes where we played two hours before we play the eight o'clock or nine o'clock game Gigi might not play till 11 or 12. COVID be there at eight o'clock in the morning. Watching these fucking eight year olds play like eight year olds is not too much fun to watch, but the fact that he would come and watch my kids play, it just it

spoke volumes. And then obviously, you know, I'd go and watch Gigi play, and I surprised the twins for their 10th birthday with the with the surprise workout from COVID, I kept them home from school, and they were just, what are we doing? Super excited. They didn't know where we were going. Hour drive. They pass out on the way there. I tell them to wake up and they get out, and we go into this gym, and it's COVID, and they just, Oh, my God, dad.

And he gave a he when I tell you, he worked them so hard, he made one of the twins cry. And I loved it. Like I didn't step in as a dad at all. I'm just like, take this shit, you know? I mean, this is one of the greatest ever do it, like, listen to what he's doing. And he just kind of really became, obviously, he was Uncle COVID to the boys, but just the way he loved my sons and supported them and always sent to this day, you know, Vanessa has kind of stepped up to where COVID left

off. Vanessa still sends the boys shoes all the time. She just sent their whole high school shoes. So COVID and I were really close, and it broke my whole heart, you know, obviously that, you know, the world felt it. But, you know, to be as close as we were, and then to hear, you know, how it went down, and they were traveling to a game and all that kind of stuff. It just, it really to this. It still gives me chills to think about. It's just like, you know, you never think

superheroes are gonna die. And you know, we all lost COVID much too soon. How are his kids doing today? To be honest, I don't talk to the kids a ton. You know, Vanessa and I will, you know, I'll text and reach out with we, you know, we maybe text once or twice a month, just out, I'll check in, you know, Hey, how are you and the girls doing? And, you know, kind of seeing

the progress. Because they're kind of starting to build up COVID, continue to build COVID legacy on the Nike side, and doing stuff with Nike and stuff. So I'm always just kind of checking in and sending my love to her and the girls. And you know, from from the outside looking in, they look like they're doing great. Played

guys are Kevin Durant. Can score 30 points in their sleep, you know, that doesn't wasn't necessarily my game, and I think that's where a lot of guys lose it, is they have an idea of what they want to be or what they think they can do, but sometimes the skill don't add up to that, you know? So I just found out early on with that Golden State team what my role was, what I like to score more points and took more shots, absolutely. But that just wasn't my calling. You

know, I used to once. I had bounced around those first four years. Every time I got on the team, I would, you know, Coach, what are you looking for me to do? He would tell me, you know, I would go out and do that shit and play defense. You know, be tough note to be a death nose defender, rebound, get loose balls, give us 5050, balls, and knock down your shots, you know. So there was sometimes two shots, five shots, sometimes I get 15 shots. But whatever was, just be efficient with your

shots and and play my role. So I just knew every time what my role was when I was out there, and that's why I played until I didn't want to play anymore, you know. Again, I was never I was a role player. I was a journeyman. But not too often do you get to go out on your own terms. And professional sports, sometimes it's, you know, you play until you're too old and you're a good player, and it's just time to

go. Or sometimes the mental gets into it, or just sometimes they just don't want you in the league no more. But I was someone who was a bad boy, and I got to go out on my own accord, I was able to actually go out with two years left of my deal. So when I retired in 2017 I still had two years of being paid NBA money, and that's when kind of figuring out what was next, you know, kind of kicked in. We'll talk

that team. It's crazy. You said that like when it was all said and done, like I was a captain on a team that I wasn't even supposed to be on, you know what I mean? So it was just and what was funny about that, and I don't ever want to seem like I'm more than what I was, but wherever I went, I was always a voice that can talk to the star, but also was able to get guys to rally around me, because I led

by example. I wasn't someone that was going to talk your face off or try to over talk because I knew what my role was, but I would play hard as fuck, and I would do anything for my team. So I just think I always gained like you said, Guys hated to play against me, but they loved to play with me because I was a teammate that you wanted to go on the fox hole with, because I wasn't going to be if they mess with you. They mess with me. We know we're going to war today, and I just think I led by

examples. That's why I had a I had a prominent voice, and I played with a lot of stars, but I was one of those few role players that had the respect from the stars as well. I

good person. I think one thing that gets overlooked, especially with professional athletes, is understanding how powerful being a good person is. I was someone that always shook hands, always took pictures, always signed autographs. Because, as you start, as I started going through the NBA, I realized, like all these people sitting around courtside, are people like you and the owners of Disney and big corporation people. So I just started realizing that, you know, my future could be sitting

courtside tonight. So I was someone who, you know, I would let kids come out and rebound for me while I was. Warming up, I passed the ball to people, and especially too, because everyone thought I was a thug or a bad guy, so I kind of got to and this is you, I think most of this is pre social media. You mean, I didn't catch I caught social media, like my last three

or four years in the league. So what ESPN said about me, or what the LA Times wrote about me was kind of like law, because I didn't have a voice at that

time. You know what I mean. So to be able to show people the other side or the softer side, or just the articulate side or the gentle side, I knew how to kind of play that game early on and and I think I'm aspirational, because you know, most of the you know guys like Steph and LeBron and even COVID, like when the ball starts dribbling, like their stardom will lead them into whatever their next venture is, and they'll have a ton of success, and not because they don't

deserve it, but they're going to get an opportunity because

they're a star. I was able to get those same opportunities being a role player by doing everything I just told you, you know, doing shit the right way, and being respectable and showing respect and giving love and taking that extra moment to take a picture of maybe if I don't want to, or sign an autograph when I'm tired, I just kind of went out of my way to show the world that pre social media, that I wasn't this villain, that I kind of took on a villain persona, and just to

show the person that it was almost like, it's funny. I'll backtrack a little bit. So after I bought fake COVID, I got death threats. People don't come to LA. We're gonna kill you, like all this kind of wild shit. And towards the end of my career, like I let the twins start traveling with me, and they were huge wrestling fans. They loved they were always they were always wrestling each other and doing wrestling tricks and shit.

So I would take them on road trips, and they would be like, Dad, why do the fans boo you when they announce your name in the starting lineup? And I'm like, damn. Like, what do I tell them? And it just hit me, because they love wrestling. I'm just like, well, daddy always has to guard the best player. So Daddy, every night has to, he has to. I'm like, The Undertaker

that takes on Hulk Hogan. You know, I mean, like the best players stars, or they're like, Hulk Hogan, but daddy's like, The Undertaker, so, oh yeah, you were black, and you go out there and it didn't, so I just kind of gave him that, like, I'm the guy that you don't want to see coming. I'm the guy that you boo for because, you know, I'm gonna go out there and try to, you know, make it, make it tough for the best player every night. So just them kind of seeing that,

that and understanding that. But I was given that villain role, and at first it kind of hurt, because I didn't feel like I was a bad person. But then I was just like, shit, if just like, shit, if this is what it's going to take for me to last in this league, like, let me be a bad

motherfucker then. So that's when I kind of started not caring as much again, like I would this is when I would now slap refs in the offseason, or excuse I had to slap a coach one time for in a summer league game in San Francisco because he was cussing at me from the sidelines, and people are like, What the heck? Like, I went over literally slapped him, like, I just kind of started being like, you want to be you want a bad guy. I'm gonna show you how to

be a bad guy. So I kind of embraced that role, but at the same time, it was in me, but it wasn't who I was. So I really tried to, at times, as I was just saying, show people the full repertoire of who Matt Barnes was, was your

and KD like, on the court. I'm like, What the fuck are you like? I was about to call them back over, but Coach Kerr like, just let him, let him do it. So they're over here shooting in the Western Conference Finals. I remember there was one game they traveled before the playoffs came, and I was coming off the bench for that team, and we were in San Antonio, and I guess they wanted to start me on Kauai that night. So we were at Team

breakfast. And that team breakfast after team breakfast, the team normally watches film, so we're going through it. And Coach Kerry even actually tells a story when he comes on my podcast, because I forgot about it. But the twins are in there. We're eating, and they're eating their pancakes and everything, and we start watching film, and Coach COVID goes tonight, Matt, you got Kawhi you're starting. And, you know, I'm 15 years Anna, all right, Coach, I'm

ready. The fucking twins lost their mind like they put their forks down, jump up and down, smiling like, you know, daddy had won a championship already. So, you know, that was one of those times when you say, Do the kids get to that was the best part of my career, was the last three or four years that the twins were around everything. They were in the locker room with Coby. They were in the locker room with Chris Paul and Blake Griffin and that lob city

team. They were in the locker room with Steph Katie and clay. I remember we're in the was it Western finals, or second round of the Western finals against San Antonio, and we had just clinched, I think, the Western finals, and I got out of the shower, and I'm looking for the twins, and they're over in clay Thompson's locker, and clay is teaching them how to make paper airplanes. And I'm just like, these kids don't know how

fucking lucky they are. Man, they're sitting here with one of the great issues of all time, and clay is folding paper airplanes out of the box scores, and they're throwing paper airplanes. All over the locker room. I'm like, yeah, these kids don't know how good they got it. You talked

free agents. And then I go back 10 years later, right before I retired into new ownership group, and Peter governor, yeah, like when I tell you, like everything was taken care of, like when I tell you, all they wanted you to do is focus on basketball, like they took care

of your ticket requests. No matter how many tickets you need, they'll take care of it, food, all the treatment, like anything you can ever imagine, like when they think, when people think professional athletes and luxury, like some of it is not like when I first played for the clippers, like we practiced at Southwest college out here, and we had to keep the back doors open so people didn't rob our cars. Like when I first played with the clubs with Donna

Sterling, it was trash. But fast forward back to goober and these guys, like, they just took care of everything. Even when it came to the playoffs. They chartered a whole entire private plane for our families, and took care of their hotels and flights and all this. And it was just like, it was such an amazing energy, like that warrior team. It was fun to go in on off days. Our entire team would be in there. I'd be on off day, or I'd have off days with other teams where no one

would show up, not even me. You know what I mean, like. But with this Golden State team, they really caught lightning in a bottle for those three or four years where it was just you wanted to be around the team, the energy was great. They laid out the ultimate red carpet for you. But to answer your question, it all starts at the top. If you have, if you have faulty leadership, you won't go anywhere. Because I think it

trickles down. And you know, especially being in business, you know, you're only as strong as your you know, your weakest piece. But I really think it starts at the top, and then these guys just did absolutely everything to make sure that all we had to do was focus on basketball. Well,

court, he trusts you. He's implemented his system, and he'll do his whistle if he needs to get your attention. Let's

I was just ready to get out of Detroit. And, you know, I went in, and I saw these guys kind of collapsing on me, so I pulled up from half court, ended up draining it, and then look at the clock. You know, after the team calls timeout, I'm like, oh shit, there's still, like, 1.1 seconds, like, I shot the ball too early. But it was a cool

moment. You know what I mean, to be able to, you know, obviously, anytime you hit a buzzer beater, to win a game is dope, but you know, my buzzer beater was a little bit too early,

was a friend of yours. Is a friend of mine. He lost a salary, a whole year salary. It was just huge money. Then $3 million today, you see a lot of fan involvement and drawing of fans on the court. You see it at football games, people throwing beer. You saw it at a football game this past weekend, a Detroit Lions fan. Best team in go lions. I'm a Detroiter saying something to the Green Bay coach. How far is too far? Can people who are sitting court side be trash talking the

players? And at what point does it get too much. I think

saying whatever. I mean, you could talk trash all day, but I think now it's personal shots, and obviously they're recording when they say it, so if they get a reaction, they can go viral. So I just, you know, I feel like athlete, or, excuse me, I feel like fans. Some, this is not a blanket statement, but some fans look at us like they try to poke us like caged animals at the zoo, like, let me see if I can say some wild shit to make him respond, and I'll film him and

I'll go viral. Let me throw something and see if I can hit him, and I can tell this story to everybody. So it's a scary line, because obviously you never want to see something like the malice in the palace. But you know what? Fans are crazy these days, and I think and a majority of fans are just good

fans. And if you want to scream and yell and cuss at us, you know, as an away team coming into your home gym or home field, I love it, but when it starts getting personal, then you're taking personal shots and saying just the most disrespectful stuff, and then when you're throwing stuff, hopefully, fingers crossed, it doesn't happen. But that's how people get hurt. You

draw. So, I mean, you hope just, you know, the morals of a person would understand, or the character of a person. But like you said, I mean, sporting, which is supposed to be fun, and then you go, and you add a little bit of alcohol to that and enhances the experience, and you a little bit more braver than you normally are, and you say some wild shit. So unfortunately, it kind of is what it is. I don't see a solution for it, to be honest

with you. I know people who do get caught throwing stuff or, you know, doing some stuff, get banned or kicked out. But I had a couple situations, you know, during my career where if I would have got my hands on someone that would have said something or through some it would, it would have been problems. So obviously, you don't want to see that. We you know, you want to come out and cheer for your team or cheer for your players, and everyone make it home safely. But that

definitely is a problem. And to be honest, the rain, I don't know how to fix it, or if there's actually even a solution for it. Let's,

all basketball revenues. So that's an increase this year to last year, and every season, 160% more revenues. We're going to see the first 100 million dollar salaries by the 2032 2033 season, Luca doncic is going to be the first salaried NBA billionaire. If you look back to your career 22 years ago, when you started, would you ever would have thought you're going to see players making $100 million a year in salary?

the game globally. You see a huge European influx, you know, I think European players, and one of the last four or five MVPs, though, not mistaken. I think it's beautiful. You know, I'm not one of those older guys, like, oh, you know, fuck these younger kids. And, like, I love it because, partly because I have five sons, you know what? I mean, so, or excuse me, six sons. Now, you know, so hopefully one of them will catch lightning in a bottle and be able to kind of tap into that.

But if you think, you know, I made a little bit, you know, 35 million, like, Guys are getting paid more than one year now, you know, I mean, like you said, and then the next five years, the guys are gonna be making $100 million a year, which is insane, but I just think it shows the growth of the game. And, you know, it's really a global sport now, and and the odds to make it

are crazy. You know, I just, I feel like we live in, obviously, this social media driven era where negativity unfortunately outweighs the positivity. But you just hear so much negativity about professional athletes that, but if you understood how hard it was to especially basketball, like every, literally, every kid in the world now dreams to play in the NBA. And you know, you gave some statistic earlier, but it's just like you're you're better off getting struck by lightning than

making it in the NBA. So, you know, my hat's off to all these guys that play this game and who continue to grow. Of the game. Would I like to see a little bit more defense, absolutely. But you know, these guys are super skilled and super talented, and the money is reflecting that.

fees. You've got $1.4 million in FICA and Medicare deductions. Your take home of that $63.8 million is $25.2 million the players get 40% of the contract value, insane.

But also, I don't, you know there was a stigma, not necessarily a stigma, but you know, guys back before me, and even guys I played with, like, going broke was a big thing with professional athletes, but I think financial literacy is a huge part of professional sports now, and it's almost cool to be aware and invest. And what are

you in? Like, when I was in the league, and they're, you know, when I came in the early 2000s we were talking about women, cars, rims and jewelry, you know, with that Golden State team, by the time I was leaving, they were talking about Silicon Valley and investments and opportunity, and who's coming to the game tonight, and what fund is going to be there. I'm like, holy shit. I wish this would have started a little bit

earlier. You know what I mean, like to be financially aware is really cool now, which I think is great, because these kids are making a ton of money and a ton of opportunity and understanding that, you know, they're, they're their own business. They're a walking business every day. So, you know, we, you know, you're one of your producers. Asked about n, i, L, S and all this kind of stuff like, these kids are getting crazy money, starting at a very early age

now. So I'm glad that there's some, there's some, there's some guidance and some education coming with that, because it's a ton of money. Let's

this. You can see it. You don't have to say stuff. Sometimes you can see it. And I remember I made a comment, she was just getting beat up, and it just disgusted me that her teammates didn't have her back because I was one of those guys, you touch COVID, you touch CP, like I'm on

your head. You know what I mean, in the fact that this girl, night and night, I was getting beat up, and her teammates weren't even helping her off, off the court, like they were just kind of, and I'm just, and I made a cut, and it went super

viral. This guy said it got almost over a billion impressions that, how do you not have your your teammates back, you know, how do you not and and, you know, I think as the season wore long, they kind of started, you know, having her back more, and then she started coming into her own, you know, you hear all these, she can't do this on this level. This is a whole different level. This girl is special. She can shoot the ball like Steph. She can pass the ball, and she's a

competitor. And she really just came out, I think she won an award the other day, and she came out and said, Do you know that the all this is coming off the backs of black women in this sport? I don't remember the exact quote. I don't want to butcher the quote. You can look it up. But she it up, but she pays homage to who deserves to be paid homage. I think she does everything right, and that alone will bother people, you know what? I mean, they want to kind of try to find a flaw in

somebody. And I think Caitlin Clark has been a huge, huge instrumental key to just shining a light on a game that needed more light shined on it. You know, these girls are extremely talented, but I think they get knocked because they're not athletic. But I would argue that some of these women are more skilled than the men, because we get away with athleticism and strength in our game. These women don't get it. These women have to be skilled to be able to, you know, succeed in their

game. So, you know, my hats off to not only Caitlin, but this entire. Our league. I think it's beautiful. It gives my daughter something to aspire to. You know, she's a basketball player, and it just gives hope to a lot of young girls now that you know that professional sports, and particularly basketball, is an option, and you know, if they're fortunate enough,

she's much watching. Then she just brings so many eyeballs to the sport. And it was just, you know, you see, you see, there was a lot of jealousy from women, whether they be Hall of Famers that are still playing, or vets or even young people. And it's just like, you know, they wanted to kind of show what the deal was, but she showed through hard work and dedication and being a good person, man that you know that she is, and she's gotten, gotten all the

credit that she deserves. I mean, that's not to say that, you know, I'm a big fan of Angel Reese, too, and the lane she's been able to carve out for herself, and then, like the Asia Wilsons and the women that have been carrying this league for years. I just think that people needed to understand that, you know, Caitlin was the vehicle that brought more eyeballs. You know what? I mean, like it because of her, you know, things will change in this game, you

know. And you hear changes like, you know, private planes for some teams now, and she's selling out arenas wherever she goes. So, I mean, I'm all for the growth, you know, or the NBA has gone through, you know, extreme growth over the, you know, the last 30 plus years, and the fact that I think the WNBA is coming in their 28th and 29th year. And, you know, they have pretty much a new logo, you know, I mean, she is the the face of the league. I'm not

saying she's the best player. I think one day she could possibly be the best player, but she's definitely, probably the face of the league and one of the most popular athletes in the world. And, you know, I'm just happy for her and the rest of these women that they're starting to get the eyeballs and attention, and at the end of the day, that's going to drive up revenue, 338,000

basketball. I don't think they'll ever be like a ten million a year salary in the WNBA, but I can definitely see it getting to, you know, three, four, possibly 5 million a year. And again, I hope I'm wrong, but the 10 thing, I hope these women continue to climb the ladder and make as much money as you possibly can. But I just think, you know, they're definitely on

the right track. Now, if you look back and you're 28 at the NBA, where they were in year, 28 of the WNBA were there, where there's a lot of similarities. And you know, you see how much this game has grown in the last 30 years. And again, I think Caitlin Clark and Andrew Reese and this, this young crew that have come are going to spark the minds of a lot of young women around the world, and they're going to continue to grow the

what I really wanted to do. I meant a few small investments that were, you know, that they were kind of starting to turn but I knew that I wanted to do something. Someone had nudged me into getting into media. You know, you're always so well spoken in your interviews. You should try doing sports media. Yeah, I think back when I played there was this line in the sand. Like we didn't really fuck with

excuse my language. We didn't really mess with the media because we didn't have a rebuttal to whatever they would change. You know, they could take our words and do whatever with it. And what they said was it, you know, fast forward social medias into play now. And so I just wasn't really quick to jump in the media space. But, you know, someone was really persistent on and pushed me into doing it. And once I did it, it, it opened up my eyes and really changed my life. It changed my

post career trajectory. You know, did a little bit of fox that was with ESPN for almost three and a half four years. Learned a lot about the business of media. And so Brian Daly comes into my life in 2000 I retire in 2017 I meet Brian Daly. And it was random, because, again, I was doing ESPN at the time, and I did a documentary for Showtime. I was speaking for DeMarcus Cousins documentary. And the producer after he's like, Hey, I heard you want to start a podcast. I'm

like, how did you hear that? But yeah, I do. He's like, You need to meet with my friend Brian Daley over at Showtime. I'm like, like, Showtime, like the network. They're like, yeah, they just started a digital component called Showtime basketball. I think you'd be a great fit. I'm like, Well, shit, I'm all for it. So he connects the dots. He flies out. Out here. We meet at the Lowe's hotels in Santa Monica. We took

two or three shots at tequila. I pitched them a man cave barber shop, conversation with cameras on it, and I had to smoke. I wanted to be able to smoke. I wanted to be the first athlete on TV, like, really smoking. And he was all for it. And next thing you know, we're shooting a pilot, and we're off to the to the races. So at the time, we really didn't know what we had. All the podcasts weren't new at the time, but sports podcasts

were fairly new at the time. I want to say, like we were the second one to maybe kind of jump into space. And, you know, I always show left to the knuckleheads because I think they were a little bit before

us. But before us. But I really feel like we came in this space and kicked open and started a whole new wave of sports media, not just basketball, but sports media, like when I came in to the podcast space, you could probably count, or in the whole entire world, you could probably count the sports podcast on your hand. On one hand, there may have been 2345, at the most. And if you look at it now, who doesn't have a podcast in the sports space, you know? I mean, so we were one of the

originators. You know, they like to call us the OGS of the space, but I just love the fact that we're here again. Because, and people say, you know, the space is watered down, but I don't necessarily look at it as being watered down, because I feel like every player in this space has their own unique journey, their own unique story and their own unique way of telling it. And if I'm a fan, although I love the Stephen A and shout out to Stephen, I think he's about to get a record breaking 120 $1

million dust my guy. Let me, let me borrow some. But, you know, I'll take some of that, right, seriously. Like, as much as I love these guys, like they didn't play it at this level, you know. So if I'm a fan, I'm thinking like, I want to hear it from a guy that actually did it, you know, although there's a place for these guys that didn't, that are well spoken and versed in the subject. But if I'm a down, hard, hardcore fan, I love the fact that I can listen to me and stack. I can

listen to Draymond. I can listen to Paul George. I can listen to Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett. I can listen to Pat Bev and the list goes on of JJ Redick was great before he jumped on and took the Lakers coaching job. So you're just getting a unique perspective. You're allowing the players to create our own narratives, and we're giving opportunities to all our brothers and sisters to tell their own stories. So we were able to turn all the smoke podcasts our first year award

winning podcast. Four years after that, we were able to turn it into a whole company. So we launched all the smoke productions in January one of 2024 and signed a nice, healthy deal with Draft Kings, and we've been on the move since. So we've created about four or five shows. I have a slate of former NBA stars. We've gone vertical in the NFL space. We just launched our boxing space with Andre Ward and Roy Jones, so

they're heading that side. We're going to get into golf in 2025 so we've just, you know, we want to be, in the next three to five years, one of the most authentic, real brands that are telling these stories. And I think we're off to a great start. But, yeah, I really It all started with, you know, obviously me jumping into sports media with ESPN and Fox, but you know, Brian Daly taking a chance

on me. And, you know, when Paramount came in about a year and a half ago, they were coming in and you're hearing, no, they're gonna, you know, they're gonna take over Showtime. Or we're not really sure. So we're thinking, like, Damn, we started something good. Are we gonna be done? So when that you kind of, you start, you kind of you start hearing the uncertainty? I'm like, Well, no, I'm going to start my own company, and regardless, we're going to be

straight. So I started with myself and Jelani McCoy all the smoke productions. And then when Showtime went under, I got Brian Daley, the guy that gave me the opportunity to come and be the third co founder with us, and we launched all. Smoke productions. What's

podcast. You know, podcasts are work. You gotta do a lot of research. You gotta get a building, you gotta have all kinds of different cameras. You gotta have great producers. But again, I was someone who learned the front and back side. I learned this side of it, and I learned your side of it, but I also learned the business side of it, and understanding what our worth was, and being able to be the first one to got. I got our podcast paid for the digital and audio that hadn't been done

in the space before. So I got an I Heart deal and a Showtime deal to double up our revenue. So there's just, you know, being a student of the game, you know, humbling yourself and understanding, man, you got to put the work in in this space if you want to make it.

tremendous. And again, there's several different ways to use it. I think it, you know, this plan has something for our children, all the way to our grandparents, and I love that the professional sports league, if I'm not mistaken, none of the three major sports in the United States test for it anymore, football, baseball and basketball. I think it's not a

banned substance anymore. So I just think it's a great alternative, because we all know the biggest epidemic we have is the opioid epidemic, and firsthand can tell you that, and I didn't even play football. Football guys said that it was

worse than what we had. But they will give you absolutely anything to get you back on that court, whether it be toward all Vicodin, anything you can imagine, oxy cotton, the voucher, the via tracks that they used to tear it like they will give you anything to get you back out there. But then at the same time, if you smoke weed back when I was playing, you risked your career, you risked the fine. You risk being

suspended. So I think the game has come a long way in that space, I would say, Now, from that 80 statistic, I'd probably say like, yeah, 75 80% of guys do use it. Now, it was really high when I was playing, but it was kind of like an unspoken word, like you kind of just knew who smoked on each team, and if you would kick it with them, you guys would rally up. But it was kind of like you really had to be prepared, because you get

four random drug tests. So you know me, and you go out tonight after a game, and we go grab dinner, and then after we go back to the room and smoke a joint, we could get tested the next morning and be like, oh shit. So it was a, it was a full time job. I used to have to keep a drink from GNC on me. That would flush my system, and I would pay my trainers at the beginning of the season. Like, you know, tell me if I'm if I'm gonna be up. So the drug program

got hip to that. So they wouldn't give us the players, and they wouldn't give the players names. So they would just say hey, like, hey, you know, we're coming to test your team today. So I had to prepare every time that, every time the drug people came to our team, I had to prepare like I was being

tested. So it was a whole process of down in this drink that made you want to throw up, and then drinking a bunch of water, and then you'd pee a bunch of times, and then for like six hours, you had a window of clean pee. And that got me through my entire career.

dear to my heart. Snoop was the one that kicked the door open. So although I told Brian Daley at the beginning, we have to be able to smoke, he said it was cool. But Showtime, you know, Showtime legal said, Get out of here. Like you guys aren't smoking. So we couldn't smoke on our show for the longest time, until Snoop came and smoked, like, eight months on our show, and we're like, fuck it. If Snoop's doing it, we're gonna do it. And we that was the first time we smoked on camera, and we

haven't looked back since. So Snoop kind of opened the door shut out. He. Opened the door for us to be able to smoke on the show. And then we caught Jamie Foxx during the pandemic, and I think that's where all the smoke really took off. We started showing, you know, air in two shows a week when everyone was looking for content, and we got Jamie on a remote interview, but he just had us laugh in the entire time. So those are three that come to mind quickly, but if I think

back to more. You know, I just feel ran out in this space. I'm so lucky because I'm a fan of almost all the people on the show, and I just get an in depth look at their lives more than I would. And that's what I was so proud about the COVID interview, is because I knew the world got to know fans knew Black Mamba. They didn't really get to know Kobe, the dad, the business man,

the locker room teammate. And I always, you know, I we pride ourselves on humanizing our guests and being able to show our fans the side that they don't always get to see. So, you know, I'm so lucky that I get to sit here and interview people and get paid good money for it, and just get to learn more about interesting people. That's

greatest bowler. I had the number one and number two, male number one male and female pickleball players on my show, and it's, I don't have a favorite. And what's interesting to me, Matt, is some of what I think are my worst shows that I really didn't like at all. When I asked people, oh, that was my favorite show that you did, and I'm not going to mention one in particular, but I was just knocking my head against the wall like, this is the most

boring show in the world. This guy is no personality in the world. People love trying to get him to laugh. And I've got people who love that show. And I thought I did a terrible job, and I thought he was terrible. So it's never know, but you know, I have a wish list too. I'm sure

make us successful. One of the things that's contributed most of my success is something called extreme preparation, where someone may prepare for a podcast one hour. I'm 14 on average for my show, wow. How has extreme preparation contributed to your success? And can you give some examples?

eliminates fear. You know, when you put the work in, I feel like you could take on anything, and I think that the discipline I learned as an athlete has transitioned to so many different walks of life, but particularly life after

basketball, I think. And that was one thing COVID And I talked about too, we just like, you know, we take the discipline to get up at five in the morning and jump on the track or get in the right room, and now we get up at five and we're jumping on emails and making sure we, you know, we reach back out to people and, you know, stay on

top of that. So I've been able to take the discipline that took me to the top of one professional space and applied it to this next space, which is, which is media, and for me to be the the bad guy the NBA or the role player, the journeyman, to be one of the most trusted and top voices in Sports Media, I don't, I don't take that for granted, but I owe that to preparation and dedication and really just trying to apply myself and challenge myself. You know, I want to be, you know,

one of the best in this space. I don't have to be the best, but I just want to be one of the best. And I think more important is being one of the trusts. It, you know, to be able to have a wide range of voices, from COVID to a Kamala Harris to rock is on my hit list, too, Jack. I just think the range of people we had speaks to you know, how well we've done and how we've continued to elevate and grow our show in a very saturated market. So preparation is key to life, to being a father, to

business, to being an athlete. I mean, the last thing you want to do is is to be under prepared, and that shows when you are under prepared, but it also shows when you're prepared. So it's not something I take lightly. It's something I'm

sorry. I don't know. I'm not gonna lie, give you 14 hours, but I definitely will put the work in to help create the rundowns and change what I don't like and add stuff that I do like, and really make sure that I'm prepared for each and every interview we sit down and do, one

it into an urban legend. But you know, what I'm very proud to say is, you know, that incident happened at the beginning of one season, and by the following summer, with it was water under the bridge. You know what I mean? And I think the key to that was, you know, I'm always my most important. I didn't like the fact that he dated my ex wife and but I was willing to forget that. But the fact that he was around my kids and didn't tell me was what really bothered

me. So, you know, when that first happened, I'm always, you know, I'm talking, how's everything, and everything's good. And, you know, and it got to a point where, you know, the boys was like, like, how do you feel about Derek? She's like, Dad, we love Derek. He's great. And I was just like, amazing. And that's all I needed to hear to, you know, go and squash the beef. You know, I mean, because it wasn't about how him and my ex wife are now married, and it

was never about that. It was about my kids and them being the priority and the pride and joy. They were my only two kids at the time. So the fact that my boys loved them, it gave me, to me a path to go mend the bridge. And you know, I was the first one to kind of reach out to him. And you know, we both set our pieces and shook hands. And you know, people know that's we're going on 10 years now, since that happened, and it still talked about like it happened yesterday. But he is my kid's

stepfather. He's their head high school basketball coach. I coached him in the summer, and he's one of their dads. And, you know, I was so real when we squashed the beef, I was still playing. I'm just like, bro, you see my kids more than I do. Like, you have to be that Guiding Light that father figure teach them discipline, manners, morals, and it's gonna take a

village to raise these boys. And it's, you know, your job, and my ex wife's job and my job at the time, I was single, and now I have a fiance to kind of raise these and be productive, good young men in this world. And that is, to be honest, that's probably one of the proudest things that I think I've accomplished, was to be able to turn that into a good situation, because people have died over shit like that for less, you

know what I mean. So for us to be able to have the issue, we had to be able to squash it and to him to be such an integral part of my kids life, and him treat them so well that they love him now. And I have no issue with that. I encourage it. I just say especially for me, because, like I said, I was, I was the one that was ready to go

at all times. You know what I mean, but for me to kind of exhale and understand the bigger picture, and it was always for my kids and the kids my the kids saying that they love him and they like him, kind of gave me the okay to Okay. Well, he as long as he's good to my kids, I'm good with them as

their kids. If they're their kids, I'm, you know, messing with them and letting them come rebound for me, or let them take a shot, and it's just this is stuff that they're going to remember for the rest of life. And you never know how small that small gesture could come to come full circle. You know, at an unexpected time,

of a league for so long? And there is, there's no bad dirt on him, like he's always done things above board the right way. He's looked out for his friends. He's done everything given this game, everything. He's the leading scorer, top five in assists. He's just been so great to this game. I love the fact that he has given but what I will say is he's given

his son this opportunity. But I think his son knows that, you know, Daddy's not going to be around for too much longer, you know what I mean, so he's going to have to put that work in, and I think he will to be able to be a night in, night out guy. I think people are looking at it wrong. If you think bronny is going to be the next coming of LeBron, he's not. I think bronny can be a very solid and have a good long career being a solid

role player. He's got a high basketball IQ, he shoots the ball, he plays defense, he plays hard. He can find the space in this league, but he's going to have to work his butt off. But off. But if it is nepotism, I love it, because I've always, we've always seen it at all different levels. You know, we see owners handing the teams down to their kids all the time, and other opportunities in business that happen, but you never had the chance to see it in the NBA, and we got a chance

to see it in the NBA. And as a father, I love it. I was playing, I started playing pickup basketball game maybe two summers ago, and I started having my twins play with grown men, because I wanted them to get prepared for high school. And I remember there was one day just this past summer where we were on the court and the twins were with me, we were kicking everybody's ass. And I just imagined, like, this is so dope, and I'm playing in a small

pickup gym in Chatsworth. I couldn't imagine doing this on the biggest level, and it just really made my admiration grow for what Brom was able to do and have a chance to play with his son.

emotion we have. I mean, he can have you ready to shoot somebody, ready to fight someone, but he also has you, you know, caring for single mothers and your mom and again, everything in between that. So he was just so his range was crazy, not to mention a great actor. I think he would have been a star in Hollywood had he had more time. So I just think he was a well rounded black man that I looked up to, and a lot

of people looked up to. And again, obviously, I think caught up in this, this la street gang life, which is absolutely no joke. If you're not in it, stay out of it. If you're in it, try to get out of it. It's it's it. You know, it's taken too many people, but I think he got caught up in the in the LA street life and La street politics. And, you know, he was taken from us too soon. So great

man. Wish he was still here. Got a chance to work with his or his estate, and a couple projects that I've done, and, you know, made friends with the people Tom Wally and the whole crew that runs that shout out, you know, to them, you know, they're great. And, yeah, just always be a fan of Tupac. Talk to us about the poem that rose that crew. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's, you know, you never think that, you know, a rose can grow

through concrete. And I think it's just a metaphor for kids that grow, you know, being able to flourish through a lot of bullshit. And I was someone who was able to flourish through violence, drugs, abuse, poverty, and. Make it. And I think that's a, you know, a symbol of, you know, roses are supposed to grow in dirt and be watered and then have the right amount of sun. And you know, for rose to grow through concrete, you know, it means you were, you were meant

to be here. And, you know, again, Tupac had, you know, sayings and poems and songs for every emotion.

going to make it? And what's your advice to parents who push their kids and really shouldn't be doing it?

I never pushed my kids. You know, the twins, they were around the game a lot, so they had a good high IQ, they could shoot the ball, but they didn't want to. They're six. They just turned 16 about two weeks ago, three weeks ago, they didn't start working out until they're almost 13 years old, because that's not they didn't want to, and I wasn't gonna You better go do like, and I started coaching them when they were about eight years old, and I'd have parents tell me, oh yeah, my kid works

out six days a week. I'm like, that's more than I worked out as a professional. Like, you're making this you're making it a job too early. I think a lot of times parents would try to vicariously live through their kids in sports. And I just think it's it's nasty. This whole American sports system is crazy. It's year round. Now it's too many games. Kids don't learn enough. And I think that's why I

said earlier. Like you see this European influx, and these European players coming over to have a success, because we live in a country where a kid will play six basketball games, three on Saturday, three on Sunday. Overseas, these kids will practice five days a week and play one game on the weekend. So these kids really understand the game. Coming over here, our kids are very talented and skilled, but they lack IQ and an

understanding of the game. So I just feel like you know that this system is crazy to get to your point when my kids make it, I hope so, if that's what they want to do, regardless, I'm going to be supportive, but it takes a lot of hard work. And now that they are they, you know, they have the dedication and the drive to want to do it, I'm putting them in position. You know, not only do I work with them, but I find them, you know, the best trainers around to, you know, help, hopefully

fulfill their dreams. And it's dope, because although my dad was there, he wasn't there, like I never played catch with my dad or shot hoops with my dad when I was little. So that shit didn't exist for me. So every opportunity I get now I'm with him. I'll take him to train. I'll watch him train. I'll train him. You know, the little Ashton, he just turned six. You know, if he wants to go out and, you know, in the side yard and shoot some hoops, I'll do it. You know, my step kids all play

sports. So I just want to, really want to be a present father. I think, you know, Fatherhood has been the greatest thing to ever happen to me, and I learned a lot of things not to do, you know, from my childhood. And I just tried to apply and be the best father I possibly can to be present. You know, money is great, but time is more important. And, you know, again, not only teaching my kids how to be solid athletes, but be solid citizens and good people,