Do you think wife STEP's going to come after us for this episode?
I mean, god, I hope not. I'm Susie Bnacharum.
And I'm Jessica Bennett.
This is in retrospect, where we delve into cultural moments that shaped.
Us and that we just can't stop thinking about.
Most of the time we talk about the past, and today we're going to do that also, but we wanted to give you a little more context about how we got here.
This show is devoted to looking back at news moments we consumed, often as teenagers but sometimes older.
But we're also.
Working journalists, so obviously we have our own in retrospect moments, things that we wish we could have or would have done differently.
Yes, I have a lot of those, okay, And.
So Susie, one of the things I love about hearing stories from your career is that you will just like bust out with these facts or little anecdotes about behind the scene things that happened. I mean, you worked for Diane Sawyer, you worked for Katie Kirk, you worked for George Stephanopolis like you have these war stories, often celebrity based wars.
Sorry, I kicked around a long time, so I have a lot of crazy stories.
And you've produced, you know, interviews with presidents, You've interviewed Loretta Lynn, Leonardo DiCaprio, Claire Dance, like all of these very impressive things. But one thing I learned only recently about you is that you actually worked at Wife Swap. Yes, yes, my first the reality show where people swap wives.
To be clear, well swap wives in the non sexual sense, but yes, I did work on the first season of Wife Swap. It was a British show that had been brought over to the States, so no one had seen it.
This was like what early two thousands, early.
Two thousands, two thousand and four, Okay, I think the thing is, you know, I had worked at NBC, and while I was there, I had done like a little tour at Dateline, which is like magazine show, and as part of that, we had done an hour on The Apprentice.
And I was really intrigued by reality TV.
I always was.
It wasn't like as huge, well it was huge, but it wasn't as common as it is now, I would say.
So I was kind of like, well.
If I'm gonna do news about these reality shows, what would it be like to go work on one.
I was kind of curious to cross over.
And interestingly, actually, by the way, is that when I made the decision to leave NBC to go to wife's WAW, this woman, this executive who was like very senior to me, said to me, like, you'll never work in news again if you take that job.
You know, they were trying to convince me to stay.
And they did it by being like mean to me, Like someone else said to me, like you're too ambitious, Like these are all the things they.
Said to me.
Yeah, I was like, I don't.
Like, way too ambitious.
Also, i've been paying much better.
Yeah, they were better, and they gave me a better title.
I was an associate producer on that show.
And that woman who told me I would never work in news again ended up going to Bravo and that's where she spent the majority of her career. She okay, yeah, it's just funny because there was a real stigma to reality TV at that time. I will say that, and I don't know why I did it. I just was like fuck it, you know, like I want to see what this feels like.
It was a pretty terrible experience.
I'd say, like, I'm not sorry I did it because it kind of felt like being in a war zone. So like, I learned a lot about how to think on my feed and about how to produce in really difficult situations. But it definitely wasn't use and that became clear really quickly.
Like your whole job was.
To manipulate the people involved. Wow, and not just like manipulate them in the moment, but to prepare to manipulate them the whole time.
Wait back up for a second.
So you're the people that you are bringing on to swap wives.
Yeah, I should probably explain what the concept of the show is, just for people who might not have watched.
This, so it includes me. Yeah.
So the premise of the show is that there are two families who are diametrically opposed to each other, like very different in different ways. So some of the episodes I worked on was a lesbian couple and an interracial couple who didn't believe in gay marriage. I worked on a racist episode where it was a racist family and a black family, which like now, you would not do because it's like putting someone in the.
Most toxic situation.
And oh god, the craziest one we did was a family who lived on a bus.
The dad had lost.
His job, taken a greyhound bus and had turned it into like it was before, like you know, tiny homes.
Like it was not like it was not esthetic.
It was just like I know, hashtag fani Like it was just like this weird situation where they were living in this greyhound bus that he like I guess, tricked out with a woman who whose husband.
Was a funeral director.
You know.
So it was just like these like.
Very weird you were trying to find kind of quirky weirdos who then would swap lives, okay, And the premises is that the wives swap and for the first week in the new home they live by the rules of the mom who is in that.
Family, and then they get to change all the.
Rules for the second week, and then at the end they come together and they find like common ground, you know, they like all meet together and they're like, there's some benefit to what you do and some menafo what I do and paid for this. Well, that's like an interesting thing about wife swap. So when I did the show, the families only got paid five thousand dollars for ten
days of shooting, so it wasn't really two weeks. That's like the first thing because it's expensive to shoot a lot of days, and you know the point of the show was conflict, right, But because it hadn't aired in America before we were selling it to people. There was a casting team, but as aps, we worked on casting as well. We were selling it to people as a documentary and it had wan a bapta, which is the
British equivalent of an Emmy. So we were like, this is like a serious documentary about people experimenting with other ways to live, and there's so much this family can learn from you, Like, you're so amazing. So your job once we identified a family, like the casting team identified a family, they would send out the AP, which would be me in this case associate producer and the associate producer,
and my job was to basically better them up. Okay, you know, these were women who for whatever reason, and sometimes men sometimes we do dad swaps or in the lesbian case, you know, obviously was a.
Woman and a man who swapped, or a woman and a woman.
But with the many these were people who didn't get a lot of attention, were often sort of people who were desperate to sort of feel seen right, which is why they wanted to be on this TV show. And your job was to act like literally everything they did was fascinating because as the ap your job was to write the rule book okay, right, because there was when they showed up at the house, they would get this book and it would have all the rules they had to live by before the.
Rule change, okay okay, and it was your job to write it. And so you'd literally be like, how do you make breakfast?
Like, tell me everything about how you clean the house, just showering this person with attention that they weren't getting. And I think everyone would be really like seduced by that on some level.
I mean, that's what you're describing.
Is not that different from what you do in an interview when you want someone to open up.
Yes, although I will say that the difference is we were sort of told like, do whatever it takes, say whatever it takes, you know, like, as journalists, we have ethics, right, So there's some things I'll say in some things I won't. I won't ask someone to do something I think is on ethical. We were just told to come back with a signed contract, okay, no holds barred, so we would
go out with these really thick contracts. And actually, you know, I kept some of my files from that first season just because I thought, you know, it was an interesting time in my life. And I found one of these contracts.
I went looking and it's twenty three pages long, and one of the craziest things in it is that if the families violate the contract in any way, so if they refuse to participate in a scene or they quit the show at any time for any reason, it says that they would owe the production company, which was RDF Media or the network five million.
Dollars for the five thousand dollars they were getting.
Yeah, I mean, it's just crazy because they were basically saying the damage to them was worth five million dollars, which, by the way, is way beyond what it would have caught to make the episode. But the actual language is that it would result in substantial damages and injury to the producer and or the network, the precise amount of
which would be extremely difficult or impracticable to determine. And so I guess even though it's difficult, they came up with five million dollars as an estimate for fair compensation, which, like is insane and also, you know unlikely that they would have tried to enforce this, but you know, these people had no way of knowing that.
Do you think Webstop's going to come after us for this episode?
I mean, god, I hope not. First of all, wepstop isn't around anymore. I think the most recent version of it was in twenty twenty on Paramount Network. But also I don't know. I mean I feel like things were different. I mean, that's sort of what this show is about, right, Like the world was different. Reality TV was much more manipulated. Like I think there are some things you just wouldn't get away with in the same way today. This was one of my only two jobs in reality TV and
then I went back to news. You know the other thing you can do in these shows, yeah, is you can literally splice answers, like we would change word by word someone's answer if we needed to, Like, you.
Can do whatever you want. You can manipulate it completely.
So there's no when you work as a producer in TV news, if you're out on a shoot, you can't ask someone to do something they don't do naturally. You can't feel like I want you to get out of this car, walk to this place and go there. On reality TV, that's all you're doing, and like you're making them do it over and over again. Actually a really
good show about this, if people are interested. Is this show Unreal that was on Lifetime that was written by a former Bachelor producer, Okay, and watching it was wild because I was like, oh, this is exactly what it's like, except for the murders, because there's like some.
Murders in the jow.
But other than the murdering, it really did feel like a documentary about producing reality TV. And so I worked on this show. It was a really brutal experience. You'd go out with these contracts and your job was basically to get them to sign it without reading it.
Okay, you're literally like.
Just page through that just initial here.
No, it doesn't none of that.
It's just ill legally. It's like, don't worry.
And so do you remember any of the people that you had signed that? Like, do you think about these people?
Oh?
God, yes, yeah, well one of them.
I kept in touch with the lesbian mom who switched into the family I was with in Texas. She was a lovely person. We stayed friendly for years. I think we're still Facebook friends. I don't know, I'd have to look her up. But you know, you did feel at least I felt really terrible.
A lot of the time.
You were there to get them to say things you knew were going to be embarrassing for them to say, and you went out with a script, but they didn't know that. So you have story points you had to hit, and you had to convince them that those story points were happening naturally. I mean that's what a good producer did. Like a bad producer were just be like, I need you to say this, and just like bully them into
saying it. But you know, our job was to be like, God, wouldn't it be nice if like these kids had a horse? That seems like something you'd like, right, And then like two days later you'd be like, didn't you say that the kids should get a horse to learn responsibility? And then suddenly that would be in the rule changes.
It was this like really.
Weird way in which you were like pulling strings all the time. So what happens is a lot of the times, as the ap you're responsible for the.
Children, and that's the heart for me. That was the hardest part.
Yeah, because you know, their parents sign up for better or for worse.
Like do they always have children?
Yeah, it just wouldn't have worked as well, okay for two people who didn't have kids, right, because you needed the extra dynamics of a family, and those kids have no I mean they're sometimes they were really young, like yeah, six or whatever, but all the way up into teenagers and they didn't get a vote. You know, this was like often done by their you know, sort of like parents who wanted the attention or thought it would make
them famous or whatever they thought. And so a lot of the storylines required you to manipulate the children into saying something. And so the one I think about the most was this mom who had a really difficult relationship with her teenage daughter, and we knew from the pre interviews that she had told her daughter she hated her, which is just you know, as like a mother, I'm sure this's like a really terrible moment, like a moment of weakness, like you regret, but not something you want
broadcast on national television. And it was my job to get the daughter to tell me that on camera. Wow, And I did, and it didn't I mean, it didn't feel good like I would come back from those shoots and just shower and like to sit in my apartment because I was just like, this is so awful. What would take days for me to like detoxify from that. And it was a really toxic environment in general. Our executive producer was kind of awful to us. On top
of that, we were working twenty hour days. You know, we were also being manipulated.
And sort of tortured.
Right, So you were doing this thing that you felt was terrible, and then you would go home and you would try and recover before you got sent out again in like three weeks or whatever the turnaround was.
You were telling me recently that there was something on TikTok with a woman who was one.
Of these kids.
Yeah, so I recently came across this TikTok and it's why I've been thinking about this a lot lately, is there's this woman, Heidi May, who is a TikTok content creator, and she was a kid on Wife Swap. She was a different season for me. So I only worked on the show one season and then I got out of there.
I was like, this is the worst experience.
Of my life.
And this girl was featured in season six, she was in a family like a traveling show. They had like a family show, and they lived in an RV, and she talked about what a horrible experience it was for her and how traumatic it's been for her to sort of like deal with the things that came up in that show and how she felt really tricked by it.
And so the story was they did this very family friendly, wholesome conservative show and then they traded places with this family who was obsessed with low riding, which just like a car culture I don't know anything about, but so, and they were really into like dressing. I mean, this is not my but like the way it was described was like dressing like sluts basically, like like she was like, I don't let my daughters wear shirts that like have anything revealing, and the other mom was.
Like, my tatas are going to be out the hall time. Like it was just just like really yeah, And it's like, those are.
The families you wanted, right on a show that's all about conflict, obviously, the people you want are people who are a little unhinged.
Ideally, I'm not saying they were all like that.
Some of them were lovely, but you know, so She tells this story about how she had shared at some point during pre production that one of her triggers was feeling lonely because her family's on the road all the time and she doesn't have a lot of friends. And then, in her very first fight with the other mom, the mom brings this up, you know, sort of out of nowhere. She says, do you really think having a friend is seeing someone for thirty minutes once a year or whatever?
And then Heidi may the girls said, well, I think you know, having friends or people who care about you, And then the other mom turns to her and says, they don't care about you, which is just like a really mean thing to say to a teenage girl. And also they've used something that she thought she was telling producers.
Right, Okay, so they're feeding this information to the other mom.
Right, I mean, that's the job.
When you work on a show like this, your job is to direct the story. They think it's happening organically, but you have story points you have to hit. So in this case, they're feeding this information to get the conflicts they need.
I mean, I guess I knew that happened on reality TV, but when you describe it that way, it's so overt.
Yeah.
And I think the other thing is the first season where I work, they hadn't seen the show. But as the season started to air, it got a little easier to produce.
On some level because they.
Knew they were supposed to fight, so at least there was like a little bit more understanding of what they'd gotten themselves into. But for the initial set of families, I felt so bad for them because they thought they were like going to be on a PDS show, right, and then they get there and they're like, what is happening here? You know? There were times where people got violent. There were like there were definitely like physical altercations, we
had to break up. It was a really traumatic experience for those families, and I kind of I'm surprised more people haven't come forward. There is another case.
Well, maybe they're afraid of still being suited. I mean, did they have to sign NDAs or.
Yeah, so the NBA was part of this contract that said that they couldn't talk about it or they'd get sued. And you know, Heidi, this girl who did these tiktoks, did mention that NDA and how afraid she was to come forward. But now she's been talking about it for a few years and nobody's.
Come after her.
Because even at the time, I remember sort of being like, I wonder why none of these families realize that ABC's not going to come after them if they quit the show, because what are they going to do, like make this family go bankrupt?
It was never a real threat or enforceable.
But you were picking peopleeople who often didn't have a lot of money or who didn't have a lot of resources.
Yeah, and so you didn't know how to read a twenty page content. Many people don't.
Write, and so you were picking someone who wasn't going to feel like they could fight back.
Right.
The other thing she mentioned is that this basically destroyed their family business. This family business that they went on the show to promote was somewhat picked apart by this experience. Okay, and so yeah, that would be my biggest regret. I think I was working on it at all, Listen.
I was really young.
It was my first job in anything other than like a straight news jop. I didn't really understand what I was getting myself into, and I certainly didn't have the power to fight back. And when I tried occasionally to be like we shouldn't be doing this or we shouldn't be They were like, shot the fuck up. They were not interested in my having like an opinion.
Or a voice. Yeah, you were there to do this.
I was there to do the job. And you know, eventually I was just like this job isn't for me. And then I went on to work on a show called Trailer Fabulous, which sounds terrible but was actually the best job I ever had.
Like to this day, maybe, yeah, it was really fun.
And so it was an MTV show.
It was when Extreme Home Makeover was starting to become like a big thing, and so MTV had this idea that they would trick.
Out kids trailers, like people who lived in trailer parks.
But like we'd basically go do an Extreme home makeover but on a trailer. And I didn't really know anything.
Joy.
Yeah, it was bringing joy to people's lives. And my job was just to like drive to trailer parks on the East Coast with a camera and just like go find kids who lived in these trailers. Like we'd set up little auditions and just like talk to them on camera. I mean it was really fun for me, you know, it was like, I just learned about this like entire subculture. I knew nothing about how trailer parks worked. They're like
a really interesting little ecosystem. And while I was working on that show, I got a call about going to work at World News Okay, And a really funny story about that is that I interviewed with Peter Jennings for that job. Okay, So somebody connected me to the executive producer of World News tonight, and I assumed I had worked at Wife Swap, that he was going to be like here's someone you can talk to it like the Today Ship.
Like I didn't think they were going to take me seriously.
Yeah, but I met with him and he was like, I think you should meet with Peter. And I was like, Jennings, Like, it doesn't occur to me that Peter Jennings, who's you know, some people might not know, but who was a really famous news anchor at that time. My family watched him when I was growing up, Like I revered him. Would be interviewing an associate producer right Like, so I was just like so confused.
But it was a he would come from Wi Swap.
Yeah, So I go in for this interview freaking out, Like I remember, I was sweating through my suit like I was like, oh my god.
And I thought he was going to give me.
A really hard time about wife swap, but he was like, yeah, no, that's just fine my wife and I've watched a couple episodes whatever.
He was like, but what I really don't understand is why you went to.
Journalism school, because you know, he famously didn't go to college. So he was like, the thing he gave me a hard time about is why I thought I needed to go to journalism school to be a journalist, which I just love that story. So that is my wife swap story and all its glory. Let's talk about you, because I feel like I've been talking a lot on this episode. You have hilarious stories too, about getting like snowed in
with Pam Anderson and being in Jennifer Anderson's bathroom. I think you told me something interesting about her toilet role hold.
Yeah, she is an emmy that holds her toilet at all.
It's kind of that is a boss move.
I do like that.
And getting propositioned covering a polyamory.
Convention that happened, it did happen, I decline obviously.
I mean obviously to who. So, yeah, you've done a lot of these sort of like.
Very fun things.
You earned an honorary degree from the nation's first pot school.
Which you know, I love, said Oaksterdam University.
I wish I had an honorary degree from Amsterdam University.
Oaksterdam is combined with the Amsterdam back then. You know that the Amsterdam was where it was legal and it wasn't legal here.
Yeah, I like that, but I think you wanted to talk about something a little more serious for your regret, which you know probably makes sense.
Yeah, So I have this story that I still think about all the time.
It was a sexual assault story. So I'll take you back.
This was I guess this was when we were working together because it was Newspeace, Newsweekdaily Peace. And at some point this young woman, she was a college student. She reached out to me and she told me the story of being sexually harassed repeatedly by her professor and I think her advisor and her mentor.
She was a philosophy student.
And where was she a student? I'm just Yale.
Yeah, and maybe she was getting her PhD. I'm trying to remember now. Anyway, we spent months talking, you know, like getting someone to open up about harassment or assault is really delicate. It takes a lot of sensitivity. And so we spent months and months talking, and then when I thought that there was enough there for a story, I started doing the legwork to find out more about this professor, more about showing a pattern of abuse.
There have been other people who had also reported him.
Looking at in general, the way that her institution and her college dealt with complaints interesting and cases like this, I.
Mean, there have been plenty of cases since a Yale that show that they did not handle them well.
And more broadly, in the field of philosophy, which you know, the more I dug and the more I uncovered, turned out this seemed to be a really big problem.
And I think the other thing.
About philosophy has a field is that like you're constantly asking questions about moral inquiry, and like you're getting really close and you can ask like crazy things about a person's life or intimacy or you know, family.
That could have to do with the field of study or not.
Kind of reminds me of do you remember that New Yorker article that came out not that long about the marriage which is like the philosophy professor who ended up creating her graduate students, Like, yeah, her graduate student even though she's married, Like, I do feel.
Like something's going on in philosophy.
So what happened was this was at the time that NEWSWEEKND the Daily Beast had merged, and it was pretty chaotic, and like was the magazine gonna still print and was it not? And I don't think I even really had an editor at the time. So I started working on this and no one was really interested in it, and so I ended up taking it to another outlet. I think I got permission to do. So I took it to l magazine, and so I found this editor there and we worked together in this story. And this is
one of those cases. And I didn't at the time. I hadn't covered a lot of cases like this where you had to find corroboration. So of course she hadn't really told a lot of people, but she had told her boyfriend at the time, and I spoke with him and he verified it. She had filed multiple complaints with the institution, so there was a paper train.
Of all of that.
Honestly, for people who don't do this kind of coverage, like contemporaneous accounts of what happened are considered very valid ways to figure out if a story really happened.
Absolutely, And you know this is years before I would then go on to work at the New York Times, right in the midst of me too, and years later I would learn how you actually do report these cases. And you know, there are probably some things I didn't do, but a lot of it is really going and finding a paper trail, talking and corroborating with anyone that the
person told at the time. I think at the Times we did something like three plus corroborations was a very strong case, and you would look at things like diaries, anything from that time period to verify that this thing had happened. And of course you would then go to the person and give them a chance to respond. But I didn't really know all of those things then, and there wasn't a lot of framework or guidance on how
to report on sexual assault cases. So I did what I thought was the right thing, which was looking at, yeah, the paper trolls, you know, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pages of documents.
I mean, it sounds like you did actually do the right thing.
I think that I did.
But what ended up happening was I wrote, you know, I spent months and months writing this draft and working closely with her, and you know, you spend so much time talking to someone and you build this real intimacy. We were close, like we were talking constantly, and.
Also they're being really vulnerable with you, and that does create like a bond that's hard to explain if you've never done that.
With someone, definitely, And so I turned in the story to L and you know, I was waiting to hear back from the editor, and at this point we hadn't gone to the person she was accusing yet. We want I wanted to wait for the first edit, and then typically what you do is you prepare all of your questions in advance, and you go to that person and you say, we have this story. We want to give you a chance to respond, and maybe they bring a lawyer, maybe someone.
Else's, and you give them a deadline, because otherwise what they'll do is they'll try and drag it out forever so that you don't publish.
And they'll spend that time trying to get that story killed. If they are a person in power, which this person was so you know, we're waiting for all of that. And then basically what happened was the editor came back to me. I didn't know him well, he was a senior editor there at the time, and he.
Basically said, I think it was in an email.
Oh good.
But I was so traumatized by the whole thing that I just wanted to push it out of my mind, and so I hadn't thought.
Much about it since then.
But he said, like, this is not a publishable draft.
This is a case. If he said, she said, we can't possibly publish.
This, I mean that would really mean that no cases could get published in a lot of I mean, it's very rare in a case of harassment or assault where there is literally like corroborating evidence that is tangible, right, videotape.
I mean, or it's like, what is the one thing that is considered enough well, a police report, and we know all of the reasons why women don't go to police and in many cases why police botch these cases. So that's what the editor said, and I was like so ashamed because I thought I had screwed this up journalistically.
That of course you took it on your set.
I just was like, oh my god, this is so embarrassing. I'm not going to tell anyone.
That you felt humiliated by it.
I was just crazy, like I had done something terrible. First of all, I had to tell the woman that this wasn't going to be published, and you know, then it.
Was like, okay, well could we take it to another occasion? Can we try this? Can we try that?
And at this point I was just like so exhausted and kind of humiliated. I mean, you know, I'm like in my twenties. I've been at Newsweek for a number of years. That was my only job up until that point, so I'm like not inexperienced, but don't have much power. And this is the first freelance piece that I had ever done, and it was the first time I was
supposedly going to write for al magazine. So anyway, I just took it completely personally, and I was so ashamed, and then I felt so terrible for this woman, and you know, I basically explained it and that was the end of that, and I never didn't thing about it.
Did you keep in touch with her? Has she ever come forward?
Here?
You're in there over the years, And I think ultimately, what happened is somebody did tell her story, and I think that this professor.
Was exposed in one way or another, perhaps.
During Me Too, but essentially ten years later or whatever, when Me Too is happening and I am now the gender editor at the New York Times, a person who both has power has more of an understanding of how this type of reporting works. I thought back to this case and I was like, God, damn it, Like I should have pushed back, because I didn't push back at all. I didn't say, Okay, well you need more verification, we'll go get it, Like what do you need to make this publishable?
Like what is the issue here?
And I had hardly met this editor before, so but like what I would do now is I would be like storming into that office being like, Okay, if there's something that's missing, we will get it.
That is my jav So we would.
Take it elsewhere because you have the confidence to know it's not you who's made the mistake. It's not like you did bad reporting or you didn't do a good job. But it's kind of interesting how you sort of took it to me and you weren't doing a good job at the time, but also now you look back on it and feel like it's something you did wrong, like you could have done something differently, But maybe there really wasn't in that environment something you could do differently.
That is interesting.
Maybe so, but I could have at least tried, like I typically.
But that does come with experience and confidence to know, and I.
Think that you know ultimately.
What I think are in retrospect stories have in common is that we didn't have a lot of power at the time, and so to push back on something like that, And this was less a story of like being embarrassed because I had done something quote unquote problematic, yeah, as I've discussed, and more like I wish I.
Had fought for this thing.
But once you gain a little bit of power, you can push back, You can push these stories through. And I think part of the reason that we see so many more of these types of stories now, of looking back on cases in the past, or looking back on news events or characters people or celebrities and saying, hey, like how we treated them back then wasn't really fair, is in part because people like us have grown up.
Yes, and actually been given positions where we can green light those kinds of stories.
Or make sure they get told.
Yeah, I mean, although I will say, the funny thing about this is that my regret is something where I behave terribly and your regret is something where you actually were totally in the right.
So I don't know.
I thought I could have fought harder for it, and I still feel.
Bad about that.
No, I know, but it's just a funny.
It's like classics.
I'm like, actually, I was a monster, and you're like, no, I was just like naive and sweet, which really, I mean fair, to be honest, this is in Retrospect. Thanks for listening. Is there a cultural moment you can't stop thinking about and want us to explore in a future episode. Email us at inretropod at gmail dot com, or find us on Instagram at in retropod.
If you love this podcast, please rate and review us on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram, which we may or may not delete.
You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books, Feminist Fight Club and This.
Is eighteen In Retrospect.
Is a production of iHeart Podcasts and The Media. Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our engineer and sound designer. Sharon Attia is our researcher and associate producer.
Our executive producer from the Media is Cindy Levy. Our executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina Norbel.
Our artwork is from Pentagram.
Additional editing help from Mary Doo and Mike Cosperelli, sound correction and mastering by Amanda Rose Smith.
We are your hosts Susie Beannaccarum.
And Jessica Bennett. We're also executive producers. Even more check out in retropod dot com. See you next week.
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