I’m Not Disappearing - A Candid Conversation About Aging

So I never dated. You got a boyfriend now? I have people who take care of me in a very nice way. Okay. Wow. Okay, people. Have you ever been on an app? Never. Never. I'm too cool for that. If she's never going to have a date, she's definitely not going to be on that. I'm too cool for that. So when you say they take care of you, what do you mean? You got your Wednesday dude. You got your Saturday dude. No, different places in the world. Oh, okay.

Oh, yes. It's a little bit better to be in a different place in the world. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance and CeraVe. Welcome to The Look, a special series on IMO. The Look is also the name of Michelle Obama's beautiful new book, which is available for purchase now. I'm Jenna Lyons, designer and entrepreneur, and I'm here with a table of legends.

We have Bethann Hardison, a former fashion model, modeling agent, and activist known for her groundbreaking work in the fashion space. And Jane Fonda, Academy Award winning actress and activist. And of course, needing no introduction, Michelle Obama. Thank you all for being here, and thank you for having me. Today, we're going to be discussing what it means to be a woman aging in the public eye. But we're also going to be discussing what it means to be a woman aging, period.

How do we find our purpose as we age? So to get started, I'd like to get a sense of what aging has been like for all of you. We're going to start with you, Michelle. My goodness. I'm curious. The baby of the crew. She's not started yet. Oh, that's fair. I agree. You think I haven't started aging yet? Not really, no. She hasn't. I mean, I happen to have been here at her 50th birthday party and literally you look exactly the same.

Exactly. But that's not aging. It's not what you look like. It's what you feel like. Well, I think that's an interesting point because I think that being younger, that's what I thought. I thought the Golden Girls was aging and I didn't understand that aging can look very different. So I'm curious, when you were younger, what did you think aging would be?

look like and what were you scared of? It was who your grandparents were. And I'm doing the counting now. I'm trying to remember how old were my grandparents when I thought they were old. And they were 50 in their late 50s and 60s. And as black people, working class black people. People died in their 70s. I had a great-grandmother that lived until she was 83. My paternal grandmother lived into her 80s. My other grandparents died in their 70s, and that wasn't an unusual thing.

I thought aging, if I were to think, I would think that by the time I am my age now and I am, you guys, 62. Am I 62? Everyone help me. I'm 61. Okay, I'm sorry. 64. I was on my second husband. Wow. But if I were to think then what 61 was, 61 would be my grandparents. Right. And I know that that's, and they were old. I mean, because back then people let themselves age. I mean, it was sort of like people just said, okay, that's it. I'm old.

through trying to worry about getting dressed and what I look like. People were retiring. I mean, it just seemed like.

aging was off a cliff. Well, and I think society sort of made you feel like once you were a certain age, you were kind of not as relevant. I'm curious, Jane, what was it like for you? What were you worried about when you were younger, about getting older? I didn't think I'd live past 30. I was sure I was going to die. My mother died when I was 12. My youth was not especially happy, and I thought I was going to die. I'm not addictive, but I thought I was going to die from drugs and loneliness.

So the fact that I'm almost 88 is astonishing to me. And what is even more astonishing is that I'm better now. I wouldn't go back for anything. I feel more centered, more whole, more... Complete. I'm very happy. Single. You're a fan. I'm a fan of you. How about for you, Bethann? I think... I think just recently, I've begun to notice that there's a change in time in my body, but my mind and my spirit continues. I have no problem telling people what I think, but I don't think I ever did.

Have that problem. And I also love the idea that I'm loved by others. You still have men in your life, but you have your freedom to be independent. And I just love being older. Because people jump to help you. And I love being older because I don't act like it. You sure don't. This is true. This is very true. Were you afraid of getting older when you were younger? No, I never even imagined that. Like Jane said, I thought I wasn't going to live past the age 26.

And when they gave me my 26th birthday party, I was supposed to be at, you know, like a party of celebrating me. And I just stood outside, scared to go in because I couldn't believe it was happening. But truth, it wasn't out of some other fear. It just was a thought, you know?

I was a cool kid, but it was just something like that. And now it just don't seem to stop. My life doesn't stop. I'm always going and doing and, you know, still trying to change something or fix something or help something. Even though I still want to be just in a hammock with a tequila. I'm curious, now that you've gotten older and you're feeling beautiful, as you all seem to be really in your body, was there a moment where you sort of stopped worrying or sort of stopped thinking about, oh.

I have another gray hair. I have another wrinkle. Did it ever just stop? I'm looking at you, Jane. I've never been afraid of aging. And more importantly, I'm not afraid of dying. The most important thing I did was when I was going to turn 60, and in my mind, first 30 years, second 30 years, this is the beginning of my final act, and I didn't know how to live it.

And so I thought, well, what am I most afraid of? I'm not afraid. I'm afraid of dying with a lot of regrets. I watched my dad die with a lot of regrets. That was an important realization for me, because if you don't want to die with regrets, then you have to live the last... part of your life in such a way that there won't be any regrets. I also want to be surrounded by people who love me. Uh-oh, then I have to, forgiveness comes into play, including forgiving myself.

And that actually has guided me in the last 30 years. I've been living to not have regrets. I think it's interesting, Jane, that you say that because I've been talking about this phase of my life. because I'm trying to be more conscious about it. And I think it disturbs some of the young people in my life when I talk about this perhaps last chapter. You know, if I think 60, because I am trying to be mindful. It's 60 and on. And if I'm lucky to live to the age that you guys are.

We're still talking about 25 more summers, 27, maybe 30 if we're lucky. When I say that, the horror that comes over the faces of... young people and I'm saying I'm not you know I'm not regretful I just I know how fast time goes like We will have almost been 10 years out of the White House, a decade. We were in the White House. It doesn't seem so. It doesn't seem so. But that 10 years flew. And in it, yes, I wrote two books and my husband wrote a book.

and we campaigned for people and we made movies. So much happened. It was like post the White House, having had eight years of a big, huge life of impact, there was still 10 and it happened. happen like that. So I just told myself, I so love life. that I want to be mindful of the time that I have. Because if you don't acknowledge that at 60, we do have maybe one more chapter, then it starts slipping away.

I want time to slow down. So, you know, it's interesting. As you speak, you actually have been thinking about this like a novel. You've really been really thinking it out. And there's something that Jane said I heard. some time ago that always makes me repeat it. She said, you know, you don't feel old as long as you're healthy. So true. You remember saying that? Yeah. I mean... I think that old age is fantastic if it's lived intentionally. Intentionality is the key. Really thinking about it.

Oh God, this happens to me all the time. I start a sentence. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Why should I be alone? I don't remember. What was it that you said? No, but I was saying that what you've said, and I keep this in mind.

You don't feel old as long as you're healthy. If you're healthy, you don't feel old. But I am someone who was raised to believe in death. What does that mean, believe in death? I'll tell you. That my grandmother...

Always said to me when I was eight, nine years old, I said, what do you think? What's life going to be like? And her name, Mama Carrie, I used to call her. And she'd say, I don't know, but for sure you're going to die. She'd tell you straight up. I went to live with my father at 12, and he's an Islamic imam.

leader. And he would say to me, also, they, you know, they live to die. They prepare their body, their world to die. You know, that's what could go to paradise. So you come up in two different backgrounds. of people who really talk about death. So like when you're saying earlier about young people hate to hear you talking about like the journey and the end. And I'm all about that. And my mother was like that. I mean, I joke that my mother was preparing us.

for her death when we were 10. Yeah. I'm so glad to hear that. Yeah, because my mother, her philosophy of raising children, first of all, is like, first of all, I'm raising you for me. I'm raising you to be an adult and to be able to live independently and have an independent life, which meant that she wanted us to know that we could make it with or without her. And I think she was mentally, and I can see this now as a mother.

As a mother, one of the points of exhaling is when my girls got to the point where I... where I knew they would be fine without me. That's right. They would miss me. Yeah. But that they're okay. They have the lessons in their head. They have common sense. They understand a lot of the basics. They still have a lot to grow. And I tell them this. Yeah.

to me that you can take care of yourself because I see that at my mother. She wanted us to grow up and be ready. So when she died, which was, you know, it was recently. You know, she would always say, you can be sad. But be sad for a minute. Yeah. Because if you're sitting around moaning and acting like you can't get on, she says, I'm going to be in my grave really pissed. You know? No, I get the same thing what you say.

Young people hate saying, or people in general, no matter what age they say, oh, don't talk like that. It's really interesting. I think it's so ridiculous. Come on, we're going. Everyone, no one comes here. That's the only thing that's guaranteed. That's what she would say, my grandmother. It's part of life. Yes. You know, it's like light makes sense of dark. Noise makes sense of silence.

death makes sense of life. And if you don't deal with it, you're not really living fully, I think. Listening to all of you talk, you're all talking about the cerebral part, the healthy part, the emotional part of aging. And it's really interesting because I think when I was younger, I was scared of... going to fall apart, basically. I was sort of bred to think that way. And listening to you talk, it's actually very encouraging, very inspiring. I'm thrilled to be hearing this.

Michelle, you previously talked about how society has unrealistic expectations on what it means to age gracefully and how there's still an expectation to preserve your youthful appearance, which is a little bit of what I'm talking about. What are some of the ways you've pushed back against that messaging after hearing that? You know, I agree with you both that health is the key. I mean, I work out. I think about what I eat. Don't give me, I dye my hair.

I do care about the physical, but a lot of it is because I think we also have to have a healthy baseline in order to know when something is wrong. So I think we have to sort of maintain a baseline of health where you're not bloated and you're not constipated and things are regular and you know what kale and hearty feels like.

Because some of the first signs of illness come from fatigue. Well, how do you know that there's something wrong if you're always fatigued? I think I could be something wrong and I'll just be running anyway. I need to slow down, but I can't. Well, you know what? But it's not meant to be, right? But whatever you're doing, Bethann, is working. Yeah. Right? It does work with spirit. Yeah.

But I think baseline health is always important. That's first and foremost. Look how so many people really work hard at being healthy and they still die. Or they still get sick. It's true. We all die. But I mean, still get sick.

Well, there's things, you know what I mean? There's certain things you can do, you can do. It's just how your body works, your chromosomes, how they all work together, fit. You just never know. I mean, some people, you know, like they said, well, my grandmother smoked and drank until she was 94, you know, things. like that. But we do need to make an effort. This segment is brought to you by Sarah V.

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feeling good in my own skin means. Yeah, I hear you on sort of the moisturizing and keeping yourself well prepared. The self-care. Self-care. But you know, when I think about... Being in my own skin, I reckon back to when mom used to say, you don't need to worry about people who are outside this house. You should feel comfortable in your own skin, which made me feel.

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We all feel our best when we're comfortable in our own skin. CeraVe helps you get there. Learn more at CeraVe.com And it's all about balance for that very reason. You know, it's like if you. If you're working out so hard that you can't enjoy life, right? Barack and I went out to dinner last night and, you know, we were at a restaurant and the guy said, are there any dietary restrictions?

Barack is like, I don't believe in dietary restrictions, especially when you're eating out. I mean, in my opinion, you shouldn't eat out and be worried about what you're going to eat. You know, these are the times that you should enjoy everything and take everything in. So while we're both very healthy, there's also the balance of, well, we got to find joy in it, right? Because we don't know.

I have a theory that, you know, I'm controversial and I'm an activist and I've been very unpopular. I'm popular right now. It probably won't last. But I think that it's important. for somebody like me who's an activist to show that I can also look good and that I'm still hireable. You know, it encourages the young ones to not be so afraid. Afraid of it. Right, right. I mean...

I'm curious because I'm a tall girl and I'm just wondering how has being taller affected your styling choices and when it comes to aesthetics and things like heels? Oh, my gosh. You know, it was different at different ages. You know, when I was younger, being tall was like, oh, my God. Terrible boys. They're short. And the clothes, there weren't tall sizes. There weren't long inseams. I know.

was this, you know, pushing up the sleeve and stretching the pant leg down so that you weren't flooding. It was just a nightmare, right? But now, oh. Now that I, oh my God, I love my height. I love a four inch heel as long as I'm just walking from here to there. That's all I do. It's like I can walk from the backstage to a chair. So you're like, so you're like.

four-year-old in your mother's shoes when you get the heels. That's how it is for me now. I love the silhouette of a heel, the way it makes your... foot look, but I like a kitten heel because I'm also, I don't want to be that uncomfortable. So now it's, I feel like I completely own all of me, my height, my, all of it.

Fortunately, I have a tall husband, but I also have a husband who doesn't mind when I'm right eye to eye with him because I've got a heel on. He's like, okay, we're going to be tall tonight. Yes, we are. And it helps, right? Because my partner loves every inch of me. So that helps. Was there ever an outfit that you look back on and were like, oh my God, that was my absolute flop? What? It's an outfit that you can think of that was a total flop.

But you made a mistake. Oh, yeah, hundreds. I mean, I never, you know, this is where my connection to how I looked changed. I was making on Golden Pond with my father and Henry Fonda and Catherine Hepburn. And one of the early days, and we were just about to start, and I was looking in a mirror to fix my hair, and she came up, Catherine Hepburn came up behind me, and she took my cheek like this, and she said, this is your box.

This is how you present. What do you want it to say? I didn't know what she was talking about. It took me years of lying in bed thinking, what did she mean? And then I realized what she was saying. See, I always thought that being self-conscious was bad. But what she was telling me is be conscious of how you are presenting yourself to the world. Of course, nobody was as conscious of how she presented as Catherine Hepburn, right? She had a look and presented herself. But it really made me think.

And so I started to... To pay attention to what I wore and how I looked and my hair. I hadn't before. And she didn't like that about me. So she really taught me a lot there. I would never have thought Catherine Hepburn would have been the one. She seemed like that wasn't something that was so present for her. But she wasn't a fashion person. That's what I mean.

No, she had a look. She was more bohemian than anything. And bohemianism is much more tailored. She just felt like you were just not thinking at all. I wasn't thinking at all about it. Come on.

What does fashion mean for you today? And this is a question for all of you. So you all get to answer this one. I'll start with you, Bethann. Well, you're asking the wrong person because I'm not a big fan of... fashion. Well, that's, I think that's an important question to answer because you come from that world and you know the world well. I mean, you don't like, like you, you know, come to Garcon. I mean, so. And I also, and I'm always also.

always in Gucci, as you see me go out now mostly, right? That's true. Because I work as a consultant to the brand. Which era of Gucci are we talking about? Right now. But I think in the end of the day, what was the question again? Your relation to fashion today. Oh, look at you. She's listening. She's trying to hear me, but she's listening. Yeah, so now I think it really is. Yeah, I'm more concerned about helping others. I'm much more interested in helping designers and creative people.

We do have a community with Designers Hub and things. I really want to help them to get it right. Get out of it. Don't stay in it. Don't hang on to it. It's not what you, it's all it's cracked up to be. Understand that what seems like it's what, all that shines is not gold. All that glitters. All that, you know.

Know what you should do and shouldn't. Don't get into it because everybody thinks it's cool. I know, Jane, you said that you would stop buying new clothes at one point. And I'm wondering what triggered that moment for you. Greta Thunberg, the climate activist from Sweden. You know, I mean, we've all seen images of the, you know, clothes get dumped in the ocean. How much we have. It's a problem. And this is Gabriella Hurst. Totally circular, you know.

No, the carbon footprint is minimal. So that's what I look for now is recyclable, reused. People are really conscious about what they make. Yeah, right.

So I'm curious, as we get older, if we are single, there is the dating world. And I'm curious if you're, I know you're not in it. Are you in it? I have never dated in my life. Wait, explain that. Dating is a very funny word. Yeah, well, what does that mean? That means, you know, you go to a bar and you sit there and you meet somebody or you start going out. I don't know. It seemed like every time I ever met somebody, that was my boyfriend.

So I never dated. You got a boyfriend now? I have people who take care of me in very nice ways. Okay. Wow. Okay, people. Have you ever been on an app? Never. I'm not too cool for that. She's never been on a date. She's definitely not going to be on a date. I'm too cool for that. So when you say they take care of you, what do you mean? You got your Wednesday dude. You got your Saturday dude. No, and the different places in the world.

Oh, yes. It's a little bit better to be in different places in the world. Are we outing you? Do they know about each other? Where do you meet them? Do you care? They're not going anywhere. Where do you meet? I mean, they're just, you know, you meet them when you go into a place in the world. Okay. And someone may introduce you to someone. But I, you know, Mexico, you know, and other places too, you have people who you, I just believe that women who are alone.

who profess to being lonely, they have such prerequisites of who they would date. And I think they should just let somebody who wants to come along and take care of them, love them, care for them. It doesn't even have to be sexual. It could just be the intimacy that we talk about. You said fear. Intimacy is such an important thing and it doesn't have to be sexual.

The fact that you could have that. And so many people say, well, he's too young. Why? Are you going to marry him? Why is he too young? If he wants to be with you, enjoy him or her. I like that. Yes. I would go out with somebody who is my age, but I can't date. Do you have an age limit, like a cutoff? No limits. Interesting. No limits. Okay. Go ahead. No, I don't date.

I get married. You've done that well. I've been married three times. Great marriages. Yeah, really interesting marriages. I'm really grateful. I don't feel the need to date. Nobody asks me anyway. I don't feel the need to date either. My girlfriends are the world to me. They make me braver. They make me laugh. You know, women friends are very different than male friends. Absolutely. Male friends sit next to each other looking out at things, girls, women.

Cars, sports, women look at each other. So true. And they're not afraid to ask for help. William, I need to give me a hug. What should I be doing now? We're not afraid to be vulnerable with each other. It feeds our soul, even if... I don't know, we've been apart for years. When we get back together, soul level right away, drill right down. That's how we, that's why I think was one of the main reasons why we live longer. But then this one is for you.

What kind of anti-aging pressures do you see in the fashion industry? Help lead me with that because I don't understand. I'm just curious, like the fashion industry is notoriously one for like you are. in and then you're out. You don't necessarily have a long career. I know I felt that in my own career that I was going to age out of the industry. And I was wondering if you felt that. Never. Really? No. It's interesting. But did you feel it externally? People...

facing it towards you, meaning maybe you didn't think that way, but did you feel? No. Bethann's special. Bethann is so special. She's such a special. I mean, I'm gangsta at what I do, so I don't think anything that, and the idea really, truly. I never thought about that, you know, because even when I had dreadlocks, and that was many, many years ago. Before dreadlocks were in. Before they were in. People would say, did you get any pushback?

No, no. I mean, I don't think you'd notice pushback if it pushed you in the face. I think you'd look and go, what's your problem? Some things, you know, some things you could see. But absolutely, you're great about it. And I think when you work in a corporation.

You got to, you'll be conscious of that because you worked in a corporation. Yeah. And in my world, you know, we're like flying by the seat of our pants. I had a model agency. I'm doing things I really shouldn't do, don't want to do. In the end of the day, you know, you're coming. hardcore and people cheering you on. I never even thought about that. Now I see myself in pictures and I see the difference of how I look.

People say, you still look the same. No, I don't. Look at this picture and look at that picture. I'm fucking 40 years older than I was. And I feel bad about that, but it doesn't stop me or make me feel like, oh, no, I can't go forth. But I think what you say, Bethann, to... get to your point, Jenna, is that, yeah, there is crazy pressure that we're not supposed to evolve. And men have a different kind of pressure. 100%. Just look at our leaders.

Look at the, you know, I mean, Jane said as an activist, she feels like she has to show up looking good, right? I don't think you'd hear a male activist. Absolutely not. I don't think they could think it, but they probably, they couldn't say it out loud because they don't have that intellect to say it out loud, but they probably look it.

But I don't think they think it. I don't think they, I think that there are. If you're a real activist. I think there are many ways physically for men to look powerful and be desirable. I think there's a wide spectrum. Now, I do think that men have a limit on what... being a man is. And I think that that's a shame. That's a burden on men that there's still three ways you can be. You have to be competitive. You have to be tough. You can't cry. You can't show your emotions.

So I think emotionally, they're limited, but physically... It's the world. For sure. There's no question. I'm curious for you, Jane, because obviously your industry is very challenging in terms of what you were saying, Michelle. The standards of beauty for women in your industry are very different than they are for men. I mean, at the number of times I've seen a man who is much older.

And his girlfriend or wife looks like she's 20 years younger. I mean, do you feel like it's changed? Do you feel like it's getting better? Do you feel like it's still the same? No, I'm sorry. That look. All I heard was younger. That's all I heard in the whole conversation. It's hard. Yeah, I'm not sure that it's... You know, as I'm saying, I'm not sure it's getting better. I'm seeing Helen Mirren. You know, I'm seeing me. I'm seeing older women who are still...

taking leading roles. And I think that's really good. I just came back from Paris. I walked the défilé for L'Oreal. I've been working for them. I'm the oldest living skincare ambassador in the world. And me and... Because they know they have a market that's there. Yeah. There's no doubt. But I really appreciate that. I do too. That they recognize that. Yes, I do too. Very much so. But that's new.

I mean, that's recent, right? Definitely recent. And it's recent in the apparel fashion industry, what we want to call it, because we see it on the runway. We see it in commercials. You know, all sizes now. That's definitely the last 10. Advertising agencies. It's hurting the all sizes, I'm not going to lie. That one we are seeing rollback for sure. But I think the diversity in age has gotten better.

Go ahead, question. You all have experienced the media scrutinizing your bodies over the years. And how did that affect how you viewed your own body? And how does that affect your current confidence? I was made to feel fat when I was little. And very much objectified by my parents. Well, my mom was dead, but my dad, he was a good person, but it was just a problem, you know. And it came from your father. Your bathing suit is too big, you know, small. You got, don't, don't.

He didn't know. Too short. I don't know. He was always critical of my physical being. And so I had body dysmorphia most of my life and suffered from eating disorders. So it's been a battle for me. And at almost 88, I'm happy to say, I don't give a f***. flying fuzzy rat's ass. I want to look good enough that I can get work, but I'm not worried about it anymore. If I was married to a man, it's still ingrained in me. I grew up in the 40s and 50s.

I would have a problem, but I'm single, so I don't care. Well, I will say that your workout video was one of my favorites. It was kind of game-changing. It was. It really was. Anything that was designed for women, and I was so inspired. I loved it. It was one of my favorite things. It was all done to raise money for the...

Campaign for Economic Democracy. It was very influential for a lot of young women, myself included. But I was surprised at how, what an effect it had. It was great. Yes, it's true. It's cultural. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, who help people move forward and live fully. Owning a home can be one of the most powerful ways to build financial security. But for many...

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Cologuard test performance in adults ages 45 to 49 is estimated based on a large clinical study of patients 50 and older. False positives and false negatives can occur. ColaGuard is available by prescription only. All right, Bethan, this one is for you.

When you started out in the modeling world, you were so often the first or the only Black woman in many spaces. What was it like for you to navigate the fashion world at that time? And how did that shape you? I kept thinking about... I kept thinking about representing. I think I was thinking.

Yeah, thank you. I think I was always thinking about representing. I didn't mind being the only one. You didn't? I never sweat me numb because I didn't think that anybody was better than I anyway. But I honestly did think, oh, this is just the beginning.

Where did your confidence come from? I'm curious because it seems so... I want to tell you all a story. I used to be in a gang. A gang gang? Wait, wait, back up. What? I used to be in a gang. You were a gangbanger. Where was this? Cool. In Brooklyn. And I think sometimes you often, I tell this to people, they go.

Are you serious? Yeah. But it wasn't the games. I believe it. Yeah, I know you do. I can tell you. I thought you were going to stroke me through this one again. But no, I was. And I think, you know, even then, I always had confidence. I think I saw that I was a last kid as a kid.

You know, have to go home, you know, after seven years old, let yourself in the house, blah, blah, blah, blah. Most of my grandmother and my mother worked. But I was on the streets fighting. It's true. Back then, it wasn't like real guns. You got mostly beat up. Maybe someone might have gotten stabbed. That was huge. And this gang was five boroughs. And it was one of the best gangs. And so I just sometimes give them a shout out.

What was your enterprise, your gang enterprise? What's that mean? Was it drugs? No, we didn't have the... Were you slinging? This was the 50s. Was it territorial? It's territorial. That's all. She understands all these things. I'm just checking. I'm just checking if I remember. Do you really remember where you were? I think a lot of it is also, I really always, I started writing the book and I realized by 12, I had really already been very successful. I did a lot of things on my own.

I would tell my mother and grandmother what I was doing next. And they'd go, oh my God, what else are you going to do? And they'd just let me go. So I think I always had it. I think people come to earth that have that. I think you too. You came to earth with it. No matter how much you were being oppressed, you were meant to grow. I think you're born resilient. Me too.

Me too. And it's interesting because two siblings can be born close together, same parents, and one will be resilient and one won't. Exactly. It's a real mystery. Well, you do as a parent, if you have more than one kid, you see it. clearly that nature really does play a role. There is a part of me that always felt like I knew certain things about myself really young. I knew what I knew. Me too. And the...

The confidence, same thing. My mother would always say, oh, I didn't raise Michelle. She raised herself. She always knew certain things. She's just like, I just let her go. And I'm like, mom, that's not true. I was listening to you. But when I think. of the messages that I told myself. And that's why when I talk to young people, I'm...

I'm trying to get them to tap into that voice because you hear it early in yourself. And I'm trying to tell kids, listen to that voice. It's interesting you're saying that. That's interesting. Because that's true. But you don't know that when you're young. That's the point. That's really true. You don't know it. You don't know. You don't hear a voice. You just, you know. I didn't have one. I didn't get a voice until I was in my 60s. I'm telling you, I don't think I got a voice until last week.

What happened? You were born with a man. No, I really did. Wait, we were in a gang. Last week, I started realizing, God damn, my ankles swell just every so often. age, time on earth, no matter how much I'm buzzing around and fashion week and coming here and do it, just little things start coming to you that makes you know, okay, this shit's shifting, like you said about.

time and men and you just things I start to realize okay and even though I just had a birthday too and I hate ever saying how now I just let people talk about it I'm just so mad about it I really am. I just don't want anybody telling me anymore. So you're 83. Fuck you. It pisses me off. But I like being older. Freedom is going to be older, right? Me too. I know you do. Because I know who I am now. I didn't know for a long, long time.

And I'd like to talk about that because it helps young people who don't know. It's hard to be young. It's way easier to be older. Much easier. I would never go back. Me and the driver were just talking about back. Me either. Well, first of all, I can't bullshit. I had a great growing up years. I had a very good childhood. And I mean, I came up, Bedford-Stuyvesant, Brooklyn, two parents, both female. Then went to live with my dad, who was much more of the intellect and all.

I really had a great childhood. I didn't have all the oppressions and things and being hidden. So I don't have any complaint that way. But when you start to write about who you are, you start to learn more of who you are. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. When you start to write about what was. Well, the thing that I feel like when, and I don't know whether this is unique to women, but it is true for me that it wasn't until now.

that I feel like I can own my wisdom. Like the thing I didn't know, I can look back and go, I can look back now and say, that four-year-old person did. know something that I wasn't ready or able to claim because I didn't realize it. We as women, I just find that we aren't ready to own our wisdom until now.

when we are sure that we've learned the lesson, that when we can look back on a life and actually point to the things that have happened to say, oh, that actually worked out the way I planned. But you know, wisdom, it's interesting. As an older person, I've learned this. Wisdom doesn't come from having a lot of experiences. It comes from understanding what they are. And that's why at a certain point in life, it's so important to really...

Think about your life. When I turned 60, wanting to figure out the last... I knew that you can't know where you're going unless you know where you've been. And that's when I began to... Really study myself like I wasn't me, like I was somebody else. like an archaeologist. And then wisdom came when I started to really figure it out. It didn't just, you know what I mean? Yes. You are so smart.

What? You, to me, have always been one of the smartest women. I mean, really. You are. You're still not claiming. Intentional. You're still not claiming your wisdom. No, but you really are. I've always thought of you being so smart. Thank you. Even with all the mistakes you think you made, I always thought you are so smart. Listening to you now. I mean, the average young person would never think a person, as you said, about how we think of age. When we're kids, we think 50.

Done. Here you are in your 80s talking shit that most people aren't expressing. My son said the other day, since I was born, my mother's talked about her death. It's focusing on the end and how you want the end.

We could all die tomorrow. We don't know how we're going to die. But having a vision of how you want it. You're so smart. And then living to that. And you're having you always being, your husband always saying how smart you were, how smart you were, how smart. You're so smart. And I never went to college.

But you're so smart too, Bethann. I mean, I went to FIT. That's not college. I mean, there's all kinds of smart, you know. I mean, because, you know, there are people who are more academically lettered. They accomplish more. Don't take the steps. But there's a combination, smart is a combination of things. There's also, there's IQ and there's EQ. And they're very different. And I think particularly in the corporate world, EQ is often more valuable than IQ. I spent a lot of time recently.

in Louisiana, on the Gulf, Louisiana and Texas, with people who live near LNG terminals, and they're called sacrifice zones. And most of the activists were women. They're so smart.

Most of them didn't graduate high school, but they're the smartest people I know. The wisdom that they just naturally have. Yeah. I'm going to bring us back. Go ahead. This has been directed towards you, Michelle. You share in your book that society tends to diminish older women and expects them to fade into the background.

around younger women too. However, you've chose to go the opposite direction. And it's also shown up in your fashion and you've worn bolder looks and gotten much more sort of expressive. I'm just wondering if you can talk a little bit about how you're feeling now about the way you show up. Yeah, I think my trajectory was a little unconventional. That little eight-year stint as First Lady tends to be a bit confining.

The role, the job was not to just represent me, but to represent the nation. And as the first Black family in that house, just like Black folks. feel in all the first positions that we're the, you know, we're carrying the torch, we're lighting the way, which means that we've got to do it really, really well so that the next. folks will have a chance. When you're the only, you feel like if you don't get it right, nobody will ever get this position. Women, people of color.

People of different ethnicities, of different genders and sexual orientation. We all feel that. So a lot of my fashion choices, you know, as we talk about in the look, you know, the look was about using the language of fashion as a way to... send a message, to send a message about beauty, about culture, about the American spirit, about inclusion, right? So that was, I had a role, right? Now that I'm out of that role.

fashion is about me. It is selfishly. It's completely about what I like and what I want to do. It was that way in the White House. I mean, but it was confined. Controlled, yeah. And so now I feel like whatever I do, I don't have to explain it or it doesn't have a consequence in that way. And it wasn't that I resented that, but that was the assignment. Conscious. Representing.

I was representing. And now I'm just representing me. I remember one of the first outfits you wore after the White House were sky high. Boots and Gold. And I was like, yes. I'm so excited. I got sent this. This is so good, this book. I love the way you talk about what.

What you just said, and I love the way it's manifested in there. Because you really changed when you left. Well, that would make sense, too. I'm curious. It does. It's great. We're evolving. I mean, that's the other thing. I mean, you know. I'm in a different place in life. My kids have graduated. I'm an empty nester. I don't wake up. Until they left the house, I woke up every...

thought was them. When they're under my roof, I'm like, how are you? Are you eating? What's wrong with you? Are you happy? Am I screwing you up? Being in the White House is going to make you crazy. Are you crazy? You know, where are you? Why didn't you come home? Why are you in trouble again? Oh, my God, did you do your homework? But you were a strict mom, weren't you? I was... The girls would say I was strict because I just believed in boundaries, you know, for kids. And, you know, they...

The consequences of their mistakes would be national fodder. So I wanted to protect them through that period. and then fight for some normalcy. And that takes a little structure. Congratulations. Boy, did you succeed. But also, you're also your mother's daughter. I am. And that's the same way I feel. I believe in being strict. Yeah, yeah.

Bethan, I know we've talked a little bit about activism and particularly I know you wrote a letter in 2013 to the industry. I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about that because I remember the... the wave that went through when that happened. In 2013, because the industry had sort of like lost its way, where you didn't see for a long time, for 10 years.

say models of color. I had to use the model industry. I used that and it was like a tool in my chest, the model. And it was just when you, when you, I was a model and you saw it was normal to be one of girls of color. But then at some given point, it just disappeared. 96, after the Black Girls Coalition, when we had the Black Girls Coalition, 1996, Eastern Europe had opened up and people started to go there, you know, scouts and model agencies would be.

being told, you cannot, you know, we're just not interested in black girls, no blacks, no ethnics, no blacks, no ethics. So whatever models that the agencies had, they'd have to say to someone during the season, I'm sorry, but...

Oh, you're seeing black girls this season. We're not seeing black boys that season. And so at this given point, you know, you say, listen, we have not been down this road. We had already conquered that. So now it's going like getting whitewashed. And I just had to do like a data. checking how many models were being used by each agency to proof it, and then really hit the international market, which would be New York, London, Milan, and also Paris. And I wrote...

I named all these houses that were guilty. Basically, that no matter what the intention is, if you continue to use one or no or two models of color per season, no matter your intent. The result is racism. And to say that to an industry that would never think they're racist, but they're just busy frolicking with trend, really upset. I knew in my heart, I believed that they weren't racist. I believed they were just...

bold-faced ignorant. And ignorance to me, ignorance is much worse than racism to me. So I wrote the letter and sent it out, and then everyone started to scramble. It made a huge difference. I remember it was a sea change. It changed everything. And my point is, I was trying not only to change my industry, but once we could put those images back into place, it would change all industries. And it has.

Well, this is why history and understanding how we got where we are is so important, right? Because some would label that as DEI. as affirmative action, right? When the truth is, is that a lot of the fighting for equity and equality and inclusion is about the fact that DEI was happening in the reverse.

that there was a lot of blackballing happening throughout the country. It's the history of America. You can't join this union unless you were of this ethnicity. You don't get this opportunity because of the color of your skin, which means that... a lot of the opportunities were earned without merit.

It was earned because others were excluded and there wasn't real clear competition. The best people weren't always getting the job. You had to be the son of somebody, the daughter of somebody. That was the history. And now to hear people criticizing DEI, I mean, it's almost like, okay, we like affirmative action as long as it benefits us. But if it's going to bring too many... immigrants and people with different skin colors into the fold. Now we're going to go after it.

Hi, I'm Carl Ray, and I'm Michelle Obama's longtime makeup artist. I've been on so many of these sets, but I'm so excited to be in front of the camera. I've really made my career through word of mouth. That's partly how I ended up doing makeup for Michelle Obama.

When I was a young makeup artist, I went down to the Four Seasons Hotel and asked if they were hiring. The owner of the salon came out and met me for tea, and after our conversation, she hired me on the spot. I worked at the hotel for 15 years. as a resident makeup artist and had the opportunity to work with so many dynamic people. One day I got the call to meet Michelle Obama. She asked me to come on as part of her team. I spent years building my business by word of mouth.

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Shop Black Friday Week deals now because with Amazon Black Friday Week starting November 20th, you can save up to 40% on the gifts everyone wants, like the latest fashion finds. and the hottest electronics. Amazon's got you covered. Welcome back to IMO. We made it, folks. It's December. The holiday hustle's just starting to wind down.

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That's important. But it's also important to elevate it to where we are now. And that's why I've made it that way. Jane, this one's for you. So since the 70s, you've been a very loud activist and willing to fight and sometimes get arrested.

For major political and civil rights issues, do you still see yourself as that person today? And how has your activism changed? I want to talk about how activism has changed me. I don't feel like I really came into being until 1970 when I decided, because I lived in France, I was married to a Frenchman. I came back here because I couldn't protest. It didn't feel right. And I met people that were different than any people I had ever met. How so?

Yeah. Well, I remember there was a woman that ran a GI coffee house in Killeen, Texas. And, you know, sometimes you find something that you didn't know you were missing. You didn't know it existed. The way she was with me and with the GIs. was different than any people I'd ever met. It was like looking at the world we were fighting for through a keyhole. And that's the team I want to be on. And I like to talk about that because...

The way she was with me is the way we have to be with the millions of people who are going to be hurt by what's happening now. And what was that way? Yeah, I'm curious. How was she with you? It had nothing to do with what I looked like. It had nothing to do with the fact that I was famous. Barbarella had come out. She wanted to know, because I was being sent on to the base to leaflet for a rally. She wanted to know how I felt.

What do you think? She asked my opinion. Nobody had ever asked my opinion about things like that. I was so new. She treated me with respect, but she treated the GIs that way too. And I saw this. She just showed up in a very human way, and I hadn't experienced it before. And that says something about the life I was living. It was quite hedonistic and superficial. And I had avoided dealing with real things because I knew once I knew I'd never turn back. There you go. Yeah, and I just...

This is the way we have to be. You know, the cliche is be the change you're seeking. And she was. And that's the way we have to be. What do you think is missing in terms of... courage because it takes a certain level of courage to leave a life of safety, even though it wasn't perfect. You know, you were able to live in a bubble of sort of... Well, my dad, my dad... I grew up with Tom Jode. I grew up with Grapes of Wrath and 12 Angry Men. Exposure to that.

I was writing my autobiography one day. The phone rang. It was Yolanta King. It was Martin Luther King's daughter, Yolanta. And I don't remember why she was calling, but since I was writing, I said, Yolanta, when you were growing up, did Martin Luther King... Bout you on his knee and talk to you about values and how to live life. And she said, no. I said, no, my dad didn't either. But you had his sermons. And I had my father's films. And so...

That kind of was like fertilizer in my soul. And so when I started meeting these new kinds of people, it's like I didn't want to go back. Number one and number two, they thought, oh, she's a white. privileged girl. Give her a little hard time and she'll cave. That's right. I watched the whole thing. The more they attacked me. But also the other important thing is I was never alone. I was part of a movement. And that's what we have to do now. We have to rebuild movement of resistance.

Along the lines of CNN, creative, nonviolent, nonconforming. Yes. Is there anything that scared you when you were younger but no longer scares you? The thing that always scared me was intimacy. Oh, interesting. I've been under bombs. I've been... You know, I've had all kinds of things. But emotional intimacy has always been hard because I didn't experience it growing up. So it's hard. Yeah. That scares me. And today too?

I don't know because it's all only with men. I'm fine with women. She's not with anybody. I'm fine because I'm single now. You could be intimate with yourself now. You could be intimate with me. Thank you. Yes, it's a whole other thing. No, that's a good one. Michelle, I have the same question for you. Is there anything that scared you when you were younger but doesn't scare you anymore?

Oh, yeah, there are tons of things, you know, the dark, the boogeyman, all the myths and scary things. So you don't see scary films? I don't like scary films. I do not. I mean, the last, well, I think I saw The Exorcist a little too young. And I was like, this isn't fun. Or Jaws. All of that. It's just not fun. Not fun. The thing that scares me now, maybe I'm flipping the question, you know, regular life, regular little things, failure doesn't scare me. But nowadays it's...

It's our lack of willingness to understand context, to understand history, and to learn from our history. We are moving in a direction, we are going backward to a time when mistakes were made and things were bad. But history taught us that we don't want to go there. People weren't happier. We weren't safer. Things weren't. more affordable. You weren't rich suddenly because there were no immigrants. Fairness, giving people a living wage, making sure every-

person in this world has a stake in the bigger picture. That keeps us safe. Making sure people have jobs and they can pay their bills. All of that matters. Like there was a time of courage. You guys lived through a time of people really tapping into some courage and especially people who have nothing to lose. If you're already rich, if you have some kind of grounding, if you are old enough to be able to lose, I wonder what's missing.

that we need inside of ourselves to get us to a place to want to organize and to, you know, sort of recapture. I'm just curious. I think we're ready. You know, in the 50s, my father was part of the committee for the First Amendment that was resisting McCarthyism.

House Un-American Activities Committee, we launched, relaunched the Committee for the First Amendment. The minute we went public, oh my God, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people from the entertainment industry signed up. I mean...

It's wild. It's wilder than I expected. People are ready, I think. Well, that's great. I think that's good to hear because that's my fear. It's like what we didn't have fear about before. Seems like what we have the power to do now. Well, we have to act fast. Yes, exactly. You know, like before, yeah, I remember saying, I'll die for my people, you know, take me, not my people, you know, being real gangster in the street and wanting to fight, you know.

be down with the Panthers and do everything we can do. What can we do? Like you said, the lack of fear. And now I see at this stage of my life, I'm thinking, glad I got my... permanent residency in Mexico. You don't want to be the one that chicken out because you never was that person. Where's the... But this is never like we've ever seen before. So I'm thinking, well, who's going to really come with it? How can we sneak and win? You know, that kind of thing.

That's some of my stuff now. I'm thinking about that in my mind. What we're up against, though, it's dangerous, but it's also empty. It's hollow, so it's weak. And if we can get solidarity. strengthen numbers, and make it look as ridiculous as it really is, we win. We just have to do it quickly. Yeah, you have to move fast. Because it's being moved very quickly. Very quickly. Well, and on the issue of aging and the next chapter, I'm working on the balance of...

leading but making real space for the next generation of leaders. Because I also think that we do need to get... the next generation really geared up and ready because these are truly their battles. You know, it's going to be the world they inherit. Most of us know. I think I'm on the tangent of having experienced the country at not its best. I think I'm of the rare generation where we benefited from all that struggle, but we weren't really in it.

But I knew enough in history. My grandparents were alive. You still knew people who went through it. That was alive. The consequences were real and in your face. So that's why I think it's important for, as you age, for us to be intentional about making room. We've got to have a plan in this next chapter to move out of the seats.

to let the next generation lead. And sometimes you have to let them lead, whether they know all the answers or not. Because when are you ready to lead? We didn't know we were ready. I mean, we're in the White House. We were in our 40s. We had little kids. I mean, I was like, Barack, are you sure you want to do this? You didn't know?

No, no. I don't think you ever know that you're ready to lead. I think you just have to start doing it. It's the same thing with the letters. What'd you say? It's the same thing with me writing those letters. Oh, yeah. Yeah, same thing, knowing that I'm getting ready now, even though I believe that I was the one to do it, because other people thought I was the only one who could do it.

You still sit there and you take four years before you make that move. Because should I? This is going to be something. And I was so clear about it. And I knew I had to believe in the industry in order to do it. Because if I thought I had to fight, I don't know if I would have done it. But I knew how ignorant they were.

I just knew that I need to educate. The whole point, you educate people along the way. And that's the thing that was so important, education. Well, we just all have to get really brave. That's right. Know your part. we've all seen the documentaries, the march in Selma, the bridge, the batons and the dogs, South Africa, all over the world. And probably like me.

asked, would I have been brave enough to do that? And we don't have to ask anymore. This is it. This is it. Right now, we are in our documentary moment. And we either... are brave enough or we're going to lose. But I think we're brave enough. Did you expect to be still doing this kind of level of activism at this age? I didn't expect...

Like I said, I thought I'd be dead at 30. I thought I had nothing to offer. No, I just slowly came into, because I'm surrounded by people who've been doing it longer than me, and they give me. courage and strength. I'm not alone. We have to not be alone anymore. Ever since the 80s, individualism has been raised up as the pinnacle. This is what we're going for, each person for himself. Our democracy won't survive.

If it's each person for himself, we have to totally smash that. We have to start thinking about the public good, the public sphere. We have to unite across sectors. That's what has to happen. I think generationally something that has changed, to answer my question about courage, you remind me, Jane, of... the isolation and the focus on individuality that I think is crippling. And I think technology...

Our heavy reliance on social media, our phones, young people have become content in thinking that they can be happy all on their own. And it's easy to do that. guess what it's hard to come out it's hard to be together I think it's harder for a certain generation to do that now yes but I think you know What I've learned in these many years, just as you've learned, Jane, and I know you have too, Bethann, is that we don't do anything on our own. That that's not.

You know, that individuality isn't a virtue. You know, standing on, just on your own and getting to a place. I got here on my own. That seems like a sad way to get anywhere. Plus, they don't even go to the movies. Yeah. It's true. I can't get myself to sit down for a movie. I cannot. I can get them to watch a television show, but I cannot get them to watch. Yeah, that's very true. They really won't even go into a movie theater where you do have a feeling of being.

with others naturally, they said, no, I got it. I got it right here. And I think that for me, I think it helps in my feeling of longevity. heartiness at this stage in life is that, you know, whether it's fashion or hair or dyeing my hair or staying in shape or eating right, it's mostly community. It's mostly... having a big, broad set of people who I count on, that I feel nurtured by. And while eight years in the White House, we're depleting in one way.

It was also reinforcing because it was eight years of connecting to this country. That's a nice note to end on. I will say this has been deeply inspiring for me. I came in here with totally different expectations. I'm moved. It was really special. So thank you for having me. This is really special for me as well. Thank you. Thank you all.

for taking time out of your lives. I mean, this is one of my dream conversations. It really is. And it has lived up to every expectation. Let me just tell you, when I grow up, I want to be like you. both. And you as well, Jenna, coming up, baby. You're the baby. I'm only four years younger than you. I'm calling you the baby. Because I'm the baby. I really want to say that too. I am so grateful.

As you've said, being loved, whether it be your male friends or your female friends, having that respect and honor from so many is so, it's been like a chariot for me. But I think... What's important for these conversations is that there are going to be a lot of women of all ages and men too that are going to hear this. And it's about sharing and the level of vulnerability that everyone displayed here. This is to me.

This is like a ministry of conversation, you know, because people will look and say, well, if these women think this way, feel this way, have lived this long or growing this way, then there's still, there's still. That's what's important. I quote. Jane often, like I said, you never feel old if you're not sick. That's so true, though. When you start feeling sick and you fall into that. And I'm really grateful for this conversation, too, because...

No one thinks to have them. Well, thank you all. Thank you. Well done, you guys. Tequila, tequila, tequila!