Find Meaningful Connection with Logan Ury

Over the summer, we were becoming friends' friends, really good friends. Barack was like my buddy, right? I mean, we were going everywhere, and we were going to lunch, and we were laughing about the same things and making jokes, and we'd have to go to see Les Miserables. I really liked him because we went to Les Mis as a summer associate outing. And we both looked at each other and was like, this sucks. And he looked at me at intermission and he said, let's go.

And I was like, we can't go. We're here with the firm. And he was like, we don't have to stay through this. Let's just go. And I was like, ooh, he's radical. He's like, he's a rule breaker. And we left at intermission. We left two seats open in the box. at the firm. And I was like, I'm ruining my career. This episode is brought to you by Rivian and Chase Home Lending.

Well, hello. Hi, Craig. What's going on? Not much. Just enjoying my time out here in L.A. Yeah, L.A. is a good place to be. We've been here for a few days, so I'm starting to just as... I'm starting to get used to the time zone. It's time to go back. And the temperature. Oh, don't. I know. I know. I'm dreading going back. But I rode up today in Rivian.

And while this one is a loner, Rivian has been kind enough to outfit us with our own. Yeah. We're very excited in our household about our outfitted Rivian. More so. The girls, because Barack can't drive yet. Right, right. Well, we're still awaiting ours, but we are waiting with bated breath. It's got a lot of little... cool, handy features and it drives smooth. I've driven mine up and down the driveway. Yes.

Well, they don't really want me out in the streets where we are just yet. The best part about it today was we passed a couple of Rivians and got the little sort of Rivian nod. It's kind of like the, yeah, my man. You're in.

Well, we've got, this is going to be a fun show, fun topic. I think that this show for all the potential lovers in the world, we're talking about matching up. finding your person. And a lot of people out there, especially in this online world. It's just a new way of finding love, finding your person when you are... Doing it online. Yeah, and old folks like us, we don't even have that experience. Oh my gosh, yeah. I don't even get what it's like to find somebody to date online by swiping. I know.

So when you first met Barack, what was the attraction there? What first attracted you? And was there that... proverbial spark? Or what was the proverbial spark? It was interesting because I was practicing attorney at my law firm. I was a first-year associate. Barack is older than me, but he took time off and was at Harvard after I graduated. So when I was a first year associate after I graduated, he was just a first year in law school. And so...

Every summer, law school students would intern at big firms. They'd be interviewed. They'd get hired. They'd work for the summer as summer associates. So as first-year associate, I was on the Harvard. recruiting team, right? So I knew of him, this Barack Obama, right? And everybody was abuzz about him, right? All the partners on the Harvard recruiting team.

We're talking about this hot shot first year Harvard Law student who was brilliant, you know, and his name was Barack Obama. So I got his profile and I thought. what kind of name is Barack Obama? You know, I was like, he's black and everybody at the firm was excited that he was black. And I was like, he's probably kind of weird because he's a nerd. If a lot of white people are all...

infatuated with him. I was a little skeptical. And then I read his bio and I saw that he grew up in Hawaii. And I thought, well, how many black people grow up in Hawaii? So I had already had this image. But he was assigned to be my advisee. So I had to call him on the phone. So I had this image of kind of this nerdy. And then the first kind of sparky kind of feeling I felt actually was when I talked to him on the phone and he had his Barack Obama voice. It was like, hello. It's like the voice.

was sexier than the image that I had about him. So I was sort of like, ooh, I didn't expect this. And he was older, so he was self-assured. So we had a great conversation. But all I had was a picture, and it wasn't a great picture of him. So I wasn't feeling anything. I just thought, you know. So then it was the first day on the job. He shows up late, right? Yeah, we know that story. We won't.

So I'm like, okay, so he's a trifling nerd with a good voice. That's what I thought. So he was sitting at the reception hall. So now the spark's been blown out. The little bit of the spark for the voice. Yeah, it's been blown out. It's like he's late. He's going to be trifling, you know. So I walk out and he stands up. He's tall, right?

Okay. And he's cute. He was much cuter than his picture, right? The picture didn't do him justice. So I was pleasantly surprised that he was attractive. So he stood up and, you know. He was kind of cool in a way that I didn't expect. He wasn't, you know, he was... not unapologetic about being late, but he wasn't flustered by it. He wasn't like, oh my God. He just felt like, you know, it was raining. The buses were a little late. I really apologize. He sort of handled it in a cool way.

So I got him started on his first day, and then I had to take him to lunch. And we really hit it off at lunch. We had a long lunch. a great conversation. And we just kind of vibed right at that lunch. And I would probably say if he were here, there was a hint of a spark. that started at lunch, right? Because I, he was just, he did have flavor, you know, he was interesting.

And he was just very self-assured. He was definitely a grown man. And he was funny, right? But here's the other thing. I had ruled him out, right? because I was his advisor. So I was definitely in the, well. He's cute, but I told myself it would be completely inappropriate for me to date this dude that I'm advising, right? It would be tacky, right? And it would be expected. So I kind of talked myself out of it. And I also had declared to mom that I wasn't dating.

So I told the world, I'm just going to be out here living my life. Oh, just in general. In general, that I wasn't looking to date. Because I realized in looking back that I always had a boyfriend.

Yeah. So I just felt like I need to emancipate myself from relationships. Right. So he was off my radar screen. Right. So I started introducing him to my friends because I was like, oh, ladies, I got my new summer associate advisee. He's kind of cute. You know, he's intelligent. He goes to heart. I was selling him to my crew, right? So I started taking him.

him out to happy hours and things like that. So he was starting to meet all of my friends. So my mindset was, I'm going to fix you up, right? And over the summer, we were becoming friends' friends, really good friends. Like, Barack was like my buddy, right?

I mean, we were going everywhere, and we were, you know, going to lunch, and we were laughing about the same things and making jokes, and we'd have to go to, like, see, you know, Les Miserables. I remember I really liked them because we went to Les Mis. as a summer associate outing. And we both looked at each other and was like, this sucks. And he looked at me at intermission and he said, let's go.

And I was like, we can't go. We're here with the firm. And he was like, we don't have to stay through this. Let's just go. And I was like, ooh, he's radical. He's like, he's a rule breaker. And we left at intermission. We left two seats open in the box. at the firm. And I was like, I'm ruining my career. But we went out for drinks. And so I really liked him. So this spark, now you've got two separate sparks.

I guess this really wasn't a spark. This was kind of a slow burn. Okay, okay. I like that. Slow burn. Because this was over the course of the summer. There was a friendship developing. So he starts going, why don't we go out? I was like, you and me? It was like a month in. He was like, yeah, look, you're cute. You're cool. Why not? And I was like, nah, we can't. We can't. It would be tacky. And then he was like, who cares what the firm thinks?

Which was also kind of right. He didn't care. I was like, you don't even have a job. I love it. They haven't even given you an offer. And you're already like, it's like it's just a firm. You know, this is our business. You know, they don't care. And so over a couple of weeks, he convinced me that we should go out, not as friends. He wanted it to be a date, which was also kind of sexy, y'all, because he wasn't trying to.

pretend like he was clear. He's like, I like you. You're funny. You're cute. We should go on a proper date. And this is where I had to tell myself, like he's saying. Like real grown man stuff. So why am I pushing off from this? Because I told myself I wasn't dating because he's my summer associate. This so lines up with what we're going to talk about today because you were in a position where you almost threw...

To use one of dad's terms, you almost threw the baby out with the bath. I did. Just because you were standing on ceremony with some crazy principles. I'm not dating because whatever. I could have missed my dream guy. My person was right in front of me, and I was convincing myself against even his efforts. that we should go out. And, you know, long story short, I gave in. But it was the perception of...

inappropriateness that you were worried about. That's a Robinson. Yes. The rule follower. The Robinson rule follower in you. And Barack could have cared less. He could have cared less. That's good. Now see, I want to get our... Our guest today, Logan Urie, out here. You did. I wanted to hear about now with Malia and Sasha, how do you advise them? on spark versus slow burn versus I'm just not dating. Yeah, yeah. I just try to get them to stay open to people.

Right. Because my feeling is like the thing that I did do was date a lot. Right. And so when Barack showed up. I had experiences to compare him against. Like, I knew a lot of, I didn't like this, I didn't like that. And Brock and I talk about our dating experiences. And, you know, so we try to... sort of educate the girls by sharing our experiences, what didn't work. So my whole thing is date a lot. And if you run into a bad date or have a bad experience, move on quickly.

You know, don't stay around. It's like if it's not working, but next. Yeah. So that tends to be my advice. Well, we've got a subject matter expert. And we've got, yeah, we've got a real pro here. We've got a pro. We've got a pro. This episode of IMO is sponsored by Chase Home Lending, inspiring confidence in your home buying journey.

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I should let you read the bio because you know Logan. That's your job. We've had a wonderful experience with our guest, Logan, who has worked on our Netflix show, Later Daters. She is the lover. expert there. And hopefully for those listeners out there who have not watched Later Daters on Netflix, it's a really amazing show of people. Our age, 50 and older, getting back out there on the dating scene. And Logan is a phenomenal, smart, insightful. She's young as far as we're concerned.

She's wise. Yes. But anyway, so that's my experience with Logan. So Logan Urie is a behavioral scientist turned dating coach and the author of the bestselling book, How to Not Die Alone. the surprising science that will help you find love. She's also, as Mish mentioned, the coach on our Higher Ground Netflix series, The Later Daters. And she's a new mom too, so relatively new.

guess that's not a secret so without any further ado logan come on out come on in hey logan yes please do of Logan because I think you're you know I think you got a lot of you've got a really clear And wise approach to finding love and staying open. And, you know, I think a lot of the stuff you say is right on point. Thank you so much. And I don't even know how you got so wise. such a young age. I do my best. Well, how did you even get into, well, let's start by, tell us about yourself. Yes.

Really, my mission is to help people find love. Yeah. And I do that in a number of different ways. I'm really interested in psychology and behavioral science. So this study of how people make decisions. So when I graduated from college, I worked at Google and I applied that there. But meanwhile, the whole time I was like, dating is so hard and dating apps had just come out.

And I was really wondering, how are people going to make decisions around dating? And so about 10 years ago, I sort of dipped my toes in the water and I found that lots of people had as many questions as I did. And so over the last 10 years, I've worked as a dating coach one-on-one.

with people. I teach classes. I work at Hinge as the director of relationship science, which means I do a lot of research with millions of people around the world. And then, of course, I did our show together where I got to work with our... over singles helping them get a second chance at love. So tell, we're a dating app completely. Dinosaurs. Yeah, well, we're ignorant. We know nothing. Yeah, we're ignorant, yeah. Yeah, I have-

Friends my age, you know, and it's usually our kids that are helping people our age get on these apps and use them. He doesn't know what they are. No idea. I'll give you the intro. Yeah, tell us how this stuff works. great research from Stanford from Michael J. Rosenfeld that has been studying for many years how couples meet. And since 2017, the number one way that couples meet is online.

And so this is really where the majority of couples are meeting. It used to be through friends and family at work or in bars or restaurant. And over time, this has really become the dominant way that people meet. If you're speaking to anyone who's single, even if they're also meeting people out and about, they likely are also dating online because that's the common way of doing it. It's also particularly helpful for these markets that we call thin...

where it's harder to date. So if you live in a rural community, if you're in the LGBTQ plus community, and if you're over 55, because you don't know who in your neighborhood is. single and looking. And so it makes it a lot easier to find those matches.

And so I think a hard part about dating apps is that there's too many options. And sometimes people have a hard time choosing. But I think at the same time, a great part about dating apps is that you don't just meet Bill and Belinda down the street. You're really meeting people in a much broader area. Has the increased use of dating apps really impacted in real life?

meeting opportunities. So what is it like to be at a bar or a bowling alley? Are people just not trying to connect because everybody is on their phone and they're sitting in these common spaces, not really? trying to find love in that way. Yeah, that is a complaint that I hear. I mean, even 10 years ago, I remember talking to my guy friend and he happened to own a bar. And even for this person, he was like, dating happens here on my phone. Why would I walk up to someone and risk me?

rejected when I could do it online. And so I do think you're seeing a shift, even for people who aren't on apps, just the culture has changed because people are more likely to meet online. So just in your opinion, what does that do? Is that good? Are we missing something? If people aren't... connecting in real time, if people have given up the notion of taking the risk of walking up to somebody and saying hello, is that a...

Good thing? I have the same worries. So I think about the fact that my husband's parents met on the New York City subway. My husband's mom was reading a book about developmental psychology. Her now husband went up to her and said, oh, you're reading this book. What are you studying? And now they're married and made my husband. But nowadays, probably they both have AirPods in and they wouldn't have met at all. And so I do feel like there's all these misconnections that are happening out in.

the world. And I'm worried about this in general because I feel like I've done a lot of research with Gen Z and coming of age during the pandemic, I do feel like they missed some critical social skills. such a big part of life is taking risks. Like no LinkedIn recruiter is going to message you and say, hey, here's your dream job. Do you want to apply? Like you have to go out there and create your dream job. And the same thing is true with dating. It's not going to be something...

You really have to figure out what you want, go after it, be willing to get rejected. And I'm just worried that our culture in general is a little risk intolerant. So when I work with a client or in my class, their first assignment is to ask their friends and family, why do you think I'm single? And it's a vulnerable exercise. It's really introducing this idea that...

I'm single, but I don't want to be, and I want to find love, and I'm going through this journey, and will you help me? And sometimes people's family and friends write, oh, you're perfect. You just haven't met anyone. But a lot of times they do say significant things like, I think you're too picky. I think that you're not over your...

ex yet. I think that you are focusing on work over relationships. And so I really like to get the context from the family members. Well, the coach in me wants to get to the question so that we can help our listener Lily but I could talk now I gotta go back and reconnect with later daters because you've given me a different

Way to look at it. Because I think when I was first watching it, I was like, ah, this is not for me because this isn't me. But it really sounds interesting. But I would love for Natalie to hit us with the question of the week. Great.

Hi, Michelle and Craig. My name is Lily and I'm 31. And if I'm being honest, I'm also a romantic. I really want that happily ever after. I am lucky in that I'm extroverted and enjoy going on first dates, so it's easy for me to connect with people. But when I do go on a first date, I can tell within five seconds if we're going to have a second date. I either feel the spark or I don't.

I've been dating consistently since I graduated from college. I've had a few boyfriends, but mostly I'm running into the same issue. I definitely have a quote type, what I consider to be pretty attractive. someone who's outgoing and has a big friend group. When I've ended up with this type of guy, we'll have a ton of fun together right away, but then it fizzles after a few weeks or a few months.

none of them have turned into anything close to a relationship that leads to marriage and kids. My friends tell me that I'm too picky or I'm not giving a lot of guys a chance. But to me, that would feel like settling. That said, I'm starting to worry because most of my close friends have started to get engaged and married, and I see a world where I stay stuck exactly where I am now, not moving forward with them.

Something happened about a year ago that's making me question my approach to dating. I went on a couple of dates with the guy my coworker introduced me to. He was great, handsome, really good values, and we had a lot in common. He definitely put a lot of effort into our nights out and he seemed thoughtful. Like he planned a date at a Thai place in my neighborhood just because I'd mentioned on the first date how much I like Thai food.

I genuinely liked spending time with him and felt like we had a similar sense of humor. And yet, even while everything he did was great and he was great, I just did not have that indescribable feeling of connection and attraction with him. that I know I want. I just knew that deep down, if I kept seeing him, I'd feel like I was settling. Only thing is, now I feel like I haven't met anyone like him in a long time.

This sounds terrible, but is there a way I can get more excited about someone more, you know, boring? Or should I hold out hope for the whole package? A great guy who also comes with the classic butterflies. Lily. Ooh, Lily. Yeah, this is a great question because I know any listener of any age, I know. A lot of my single mentees, even in their 30s younger.

This story is so representative of what a lot of people are getting right or wrong or what they're worrying about as they're trying to find love. So I love this question. What's your reaction? Yeah, I think there's a lot of juicy stuff here. So I'll just sort of try to recap it, make sure I'm capturing it. So it sounds like Lily goes for a specific type. And then this is like the fun-loving, outgoing guy. And then it fizzles.

And she's getting a little worried that she's falling behind because her friends are getting married and having kids. I think we've all been there. And then she met this guy who wasn't the typical type and he put a lot of effort in and he was really sweet, but she didn't. feel that spark. So she ended things and now she's wondering, did I mess things up with him? Were we meant to be? Or how can I go after more people like that? What she calls boring in the future. Yeah.

Yeah, and I want to start with the spark because you heard Misha and I talking earlier about her spark. And first of all, do we need the spark to have a meaningful relationship? Or should we have the slow burn and work your way up to a fire? And I think I know the answer, but I want to hear it from the expert. Well, I am definitely a slow burn person, and I feel like I'm also in a slow burn marriage.

Through the work that I do, I would often hear from people, okay, I went on a date with this guy. He was great. We had tons to talk about. I'm not going to see him again. I'd be like, what? That doesn't make sense. And the guy would say, oh, I just didn't feel the spark. And so this spark concept kind of became my nemesis where I was like, all these people are saying no to great potential partners because they don't feel.

instant fireworks, instant chemistry. And so there's three main myths that I want to tell Lily and everyone else about the spark. So the first myth is that if this is your person, you're going to feel instant chemistry. And that's just not true. There's research showing that only 11% of people found love at first sight. And so for many people, it grows over time.

And there's this concept in psychology called the mere exposure effect. What it means is the more you're around something, the more it becomes familiar. And the more familiar it is, the more you really grow to like it. So it's why you might like a song. after hearing it for a few times or why people end up dating someone in their freshman hallway. And so oftentimes, whether it's somebody at work or in your friend group, as you get to know them more, you see.

wow, they really lit up when we played Scrabble together, seeing them at that concert, like they're just so full of life. And so the spark can definitely grow over time. So why do people get so locked into the spark? I think it's that sometimes we do feel the spark. And so it's real. It's not that the spark is fake, but I think that we misunderstand it. So the second myth of the spark is that if you feel it, it's a good thing.

And so this is a very common thing that's happened to me, happened to a lot of other people. It's you meet someone and they're very sparky and you think, oh, we have the connection. Our dynamic is amazing. And then your friends are like, hmm, I also felt a spark with that person. They're very sparky. It's not about you, girl. Right. He's sparky with everybody. I don't know your partner, but I think someone at this table is married to a person who's very sparky. Oh, yeah.

And I'm wondering, did you ever have that experience in early dating where you were like, oh, he's sparking with other people too? You know, I don't think, I think like a lot of people, I didn't pay attention, right? I mean, you see this, you feel the spark, you think. It's all about me, right? He's sparking because I'm so fabulous. It's the story we do want to tell ourselves.

I've brought out the spark. It's like you think you're going to turn a cheater into an honest person. I also wanted to make sure I married. an honest person that in their own right wasn't a cheater. Right. Right. Because a lot of women think, I'm going to make you love me. So I shouldn't say women, but people go after the hard to get.

person. That's exactly part of this. And it's like, nah, you're not going to turn somebody into something that they aren't. But I think we like to think that love is about I have this power. Absolutely. To make him or her just believe in me and we're attracted to that story that we tell ourselves about ourselves. Right. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Financial security isn't just about the here and now. It's about the future.

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And so the spark is real and I've definitely felt it with a number of people and it feels great. But what we need to remember is that some people are just very sparky and they give that to many people. And in fact- Oftentimes we're feeling these butterflies, but what they actually are, are alarm bells of...

anxiety. So this anxiety is going off in your head, in your stomach, basically being like, does he like me? Does he not like me? Sometimes he likes me, sometimes he doesn't. And sort of the hot and cold not knowing can feel very exciting. I only have memories before I was with my now husband where like I would get so obsessed with people because of that feeling of do they like me or not.

And then we think that that's so exciting. And then when we find someone who's more secure, who really, you know, as you said about Mr. Obama said, You're cute. You're funny. I like you. Let's go out. That is very secure. But if your whole life you were used to people who pull away and you're used to the chase, that can feel boring. We just need to let that point rest so that our listeners and our YouTube people, because that's y'all out there. It's all this internal dysfunction going on.

On butterflies, that's not love. That's crazy. It's true. And so if you're always used to somebody pulling away, when somebody just presents themselves as secure, you're not used to it. And you think that it's boring, but those truly make some of the best long-term partners. So Logan, let's back up a bit. And is that why Lily or people like Lily are attracted to the wrong person maybe? Because they're misinterpreting.

these butterflies like we all have, because this is the first time I'm hearing this kind of analysis. Yes, that's what I would say. Because my brother lives in a cave. I mean, no, I'm a one, I've been married for a while. Yeah, no, that's right. Yeah, so, you know, what I heard in the...

letter is that Lily meets these sparky, outgoing life of the party guys, and then it fizzles. And so it's like you start really hot and heavy, and then over time it fades. And instead, I'm a huge fan of the slow burn. And the slow burn is somebody they may not be in. initially, the most charismatic person, but-

As you spend time with them, you like them more and more over time. And so sort of similar to your story, my husband and I met and we met at a lunch. And I definitely felt connected to him and interested in him, but really more saw him as a friend. Wild? Yes, we did. You met your husband in the wild. It can still happen. That's great. And in fact, I saw him on a dating app and I said no. Because he had these photos of him with the backwards hat and I was just like, oh, that bro, he's not.

not for me. But then when I met him in real life, he wasn't like that at all. Those are just the only photos he had. Because like sometimes guys don't take that many photos of themselves. And so, you know, we met at this lunch and then I was like, oh, I'm trying to learn this statistical program.

programming language and he's like I just dropped out of a math PhD I can teach you and so over a year as I was chasing some other guy we got closer and closer and then at the end of a year I was like wait he has all the characteristics I'm looking for Not this other guy that gives me butterflies, but actually makes me feel really insecure. And so I was kind of like, hey, I don't have plans this weekend. And that was the beginning.

Well, how much in this generation, because with technology and the use of phones, people are used to that instant hit. They're so used to getting... immediate rewards for little investment. And so I think that's a cautionary tale to young people to kind of be mindful that if you're being trained because of your reliance on technology and social media to have that instant feeling.

acknowledged to get that every time, that that's the opposite of what you're looking for when you're trying to find your person, when you're trying to find someone stable that you can count on. But what is the research show? So when I was researching...

some of this stuff with Gen Z, a thing that kept coming up is I can get anything instantly. I don't have to go to Blockbuster to rent a movie. I can just get it immediately on Netflix or any other program. Or if I want food delivered, I just open... DoorDash or Uber Eats and it comes immediately. So you're right. There is a sense of immediate gratification. But kind of what we're talking about with risk tolerance, so many things in life you have to invest in. So you don't just...

pick up the guitar and know how to play it. You get good by practicing over time. And the same thing is true with dating. I think dating is a skill and you have to invest in it. And also... people take time to open up. So I feel so lucky. I've been with my husband for 10 years and I do feel like I saw something special that maybe other people didn't see. And I kind of feel like I won the lottery, which is such a good feeling.

if I had only gone after the people that were so immediately sparky in life of the party, I really would have missed out. And so the third myth of the spark is that if you start with the spark, it's definitely going to last. And that's not true. That spark can burn out very fast. And I know couples- As fast as it starts. Right. You're with the wrong person because you met the quote unquote right way. Oh, explain that. Sure. So it's like...

I think people are very romantic and they love the We Met story and they want to tell everyone at the wedding, he saw me out of the corner of his eye and he missed his flight to come up to me. And people want that rom-com. story. But if you're together for 50 years, the day that you met is 0.0055% of your total relationship. So what's romantic isn't how you met. It's that you met at all. Yeah. And I think people should get over these we met stories. Say that again, Logan.

Who cares how you met? Get over those how we met stories and really focus on putting yourself out there, being the kind of person who would get chosen, being reliable, being... an honest, solid person and taking risks to go after what you want. And that's why I think if dating apps are working for you,

That's great. And it's not about, oh, that's not romantic. I want to meet out in the wild. It's focused on meeting. You jumped to my next question because caveat, I haven't been on a dating app and I don't. I don't really know how they work. But it feels like, are these apps changing the way people are trying to develop relationships? Well, one of the biggest things that I see is I find that...

There's sort of three different main dating tendencies that hold people back from finding love. So one of them is the romanticizer. And these are people probably like Lily, she said she's a romantic, where they're so focused on the we met. They want the soulmate. I'll know it when I...

see it. And they're just so focused on the story that when they meet someone who looks different from what they expected or they don't have the romantic story, they say, well, that must not be my person and they move on.

And then the second type is called the maximizer. And these are people who come to my coaching with a spreadsheet and they say, I want the looks of this girl, the ambition of this girl, the height of this girl. Help me find someone like that. And it's like they're trying to Frankenstein. and put together this dream person and they're obsessed with finding the perfect person and not understanding that it's much more about building a great relationship.

versus finding the perfect person. And then the third type is the hesitator. And these are the people who are not dating at all because they say, I'm not ready yet. I need to lose weight. I need the better job. And they're just... holding themselves back.

And so this middle one, the maximizer that I mentioned, I am seeing more of that where people feel like if I just keep searching, I'll find perfection. And then they turn 40 or 50 and they're like, damn, I wish I had been with the person I dated at 25. They're now happily married with kids and I feel like I had unrealistic expectations and I missed the boat.

And one thing I say a lot of times to young people in my life, to my daughters, to people generally as somebody who's been married for 30 plus years, you know, the building of relationships, the building part. is important. And in this world where we want everything quick and fast and permanent, I overemphasize the hard work of building in a relationship that leads to... lasting, meaningful love. It is work. Yes. It is not instant. It is not perfect.

And I think we have a lot of romanticizers out there who, you know, believe that a good marriage is always happy and that there is always... Right. And there's always instant connection. And people are also romanticizing the whole process because I know there are a lot of young people who spend more time thinking about the wedding.

Right, that's one day of your life. That's one day of your life. And these days, the wedding experience is now months and months, right? Right, it might be three or four days of your life. It might be, you know, because now you've got two dresses and you've got the bachelorette. thing and you've got the proposal. I mean, marriage has become an industry that people are Pinteresting, you know, and they're not thinking about the work.

You know, because it all feels like this should be fun and I'm more concerned about the dress. And so, you know, when you're not thinking about the building part, I also find that people run into problems in their relationships, even when they choose. and they want to back out.

Because it's like, well, this wasn't part of the romance. The fact that we have to learn how to argue or that, you know, we have to learn how to live together. And that's a difficult thing. And sometimes you're not going to like the person that you live with. And that's part of it. And you have to raise kids together.

that changes the whole dynamic. We have a lot of people who don't want to do the building work because they're still holding on to the romance and the spark. I say this all the time, marriage is hard. And it's hard for the best, you know, in the best marriages, I am lucky enough to be in one. But I don't want people to look at my relationship and think it's all glamour.

which is why I talk about it being hard so that people don't quit on it. And I think that has to start with the dating process too and how we think about picking people. I love everything that you said and the research really supports it. And by the way, it's funny, a few years ago, I did a big survey with all of my newsletter subscribers and I said, who are your relationship role models? And the top two answers were John Krasinski and Emily Blunt.

And then Mr. and Mrs. Obama. You guys are doing great as relationship role models because I think in your book and the way you speak frankly. People understand that not every day is the most romantic butterflies and roses of your life and that there's going to be highs and lows. I think that's just such a healthy thing to set for people. And what the research shows is that in relationships, there's two ways that you can approach it. So one is called the soulmate mindset. When I meet people.

When I meet the right person, it'll be so easy. Because we're soulmates, it'll be effortless. And the other one is called the work it out mindset. If you're in a relationship, it will take work. And that's how you'll create this great relationship. And people with the work it out mindset. have more successful relationships because...

when they hit that inevitable rough spot, they're ready for it. They don't say, well, you must not be my soulmate. And so I think you really embody this idea of the work it out mindset and setting expectations that there's going to be high and low years of marriage.

And for me and my friend group, we're all kind of new parents. And my friends are texting me like, I feel so disconnected from my husband or we haven't had sex in a long time. And you're like, yep. I'm like, yeah, this is called a recalibration period. Because there's a whole new... being in your couple who's sucking the life out of your relationship.

And I think just understanding like life is long and hopefully your relationship is long and this doesn't have to be the most romantic year of your life. You're figuring out what it means to be parents and just having this long-term view. And I think that that is something that maybe people are struggling with in society is, you know, you...

You subscribe to Hulu and then you cancel when you watch your show. And you have this job and then you quit. And so if nobody really has that long-term thinking, it is scary to say, I'm going to commit to somebody for 50 years through ups and downs. It's so worth it. You know, a lot of people joke about the fact that it's like, yeah, there are 10 years when I didn't like my husband, right? And that's an overstatement to say, look.

There will be, we've been married for 30 years and we will be married forever. So let's say we live long. It will be 50 plus years. And if 10 of those years were bad. Anybody would take those odds. People don't tend to think in terms of odds and numbers. Of course, you're going to have years. You know, if you add up the days and the hours where you are struggling to find that connection, that is a norm.

experience. You would have that if you lived with your best friend for 30 years. 10 of those years, you would hate each other, but you don't throw out a relationship. or marriage because of a couple of bad years. And I think more married couples need to talk more honestly about what marriage really is because I just, again, see too many young people. quitting on relationships. Like Lily, she's the...

maximizer and the romantic. She's a little bit of all of it. And it is true that, you know, you will end up alone. And that's okay, too, if that's a choice you make. But if it's something you want, then there's going to have to be a lot of compromise. And we talk about this through the dating process. I think it would be a useful kind of perspective. This might be a hot take but you shouldn't need a premium subscription to get a premium job.

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Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you. HelixSleep.com slash IMO. I am the only one at the table who has been divorced. Okay. Right? Yeah. And I want to take a little bit of a turn here to help some of those folks and help the guys. Lily, we're going to answer your questions. But when I met my current wife, I was divorced with two young kids that I had to raise.

I was not a romanticizer. I was... Or a maximizer. Not only a maximizer, but I was downright trying to set traps. to figure out if the person would fall into them. Ooh, I want to hear more. I know. It's just awful. We agreed to get together and put together a list of things. You mean we being who? My current wife, Kelly, and I.

When we met and the meeting story is too long to tell, but we met and once we decided to start dating, I was very matter of fact. Look, I've got two kids. She'd never been married, never had kids. I got to make sure this is going to work before we start spending too much time on this. Mish knows the story. And I said, okay, you bring your list of issues, deal breakers.

Whatever, you know, relationship. Non-starters. Non-starters. And I'll bring mine. And so we agreed to meet off-site at a place that was. a house that was big enough for each of us to have our own rooms. Is this your first time meeting? No. I know, really. That's an intense first date. It wasn't our first date, but it was close. I mean, it was long distance over the phone for about a month.

And then I was like, well, let's just figure out if this is going to work. And we met in a place that had a big house where we could be on our own. So if we ended up not liking each other, we'd be separate. equal. Right. And I had, you know, a list of about 30 things and she had a list of about four things. I like her.

I was mad. I was hot. He whipped out his scroll and put on his wizard hat. But it was because I had been through a divorce and all this stuff. His magic ball and his beans. And I'm setting this up. I'm not only the slow burn, I mean, I'm like, you know, it's like starting a fire with two sticks. I mean, that's how slow this was going. But my question is... for guys who are in that position or people. But I'm really thinking about guys out there because it feels like...

Guys handle the situation completely different from women. Can you talk a little bit about how you would coach a guy in a situation like that on finding the right person? I was fortunate. Kelly didn't think, she humored me with my list, my list of 30 things. She should have run screaming out of that house. She should have run screaming away because.

But she's like, well, I mainly put categories and you have specific things and all of your things can fall into my category. I thought that was very clever of her. But I said I set these traps all the time. Even after we had this discussion, I was always waiting for something negative to happen. The other shoe to drop. The other shoe to drop.

So what would you, how would you coach him? I'll give some advice to Craig in the past. So I find that as people get older, especially after a divorce, they say, I've waited this long. She better be perfect. And instead of thinking. oh, I've gone through this experience. I'm going to compromise more because I've seen how hard it is. We actually add to the list. So I'm not surprised. And it's also having 30 things on your must-have list is also a way of putting a wall up.

And I see this all the time now on social media. People talk about the ick. Oh, I got the ick from this person because they wore socks with sandals or they... This is how their bedroom was set up. And it's like, that's just a way to push someone away because it's a silly thing, but it's a way to not connect. And so it sounds like in that situation, you had this really long list and you thought that that list was armor that would protect you from making another mistake.

But it sounds like Kelly had a short list that was probably really clear. Like, these are my must-haves. These are my deal-breakers. And as long as I meet these things, the other stuff doesn't matter. And so she really approached this with wisdom. and what I try to tell coaching clients to do. And so for Lily- And you were a fool.

I didn't say it, but. So for Lily, I would say she needs to get clarity on what matters. Yes. So I heard her say, I'm afraid of settling. That's such a bad word among my clients. I don't want to settle. I don't want to give up. not about settling. It's about knowing these are the must-haves. I'm going to double down on those. Does he want kids? Does he want a relationship? Is he honest? And then everything else, you can move to the nice to have category or the pet peeve category.

And so double down on the things that matter and be relentless about them and then compromise on the things that don't. And so I might've sat down with you and said, of this list of 30, what really matters. And we might've had a few things that Kelly had, and then maybe she didn't have all 30, but you didn't need all 30. And I think in this age of people getting what they want when they want it. There are a lot of crazy lists out there among people who have not been divorced.

Men and women, when you just hear what people are looking for in this life, especially in this day and age, just like... in our politics and, you know, in so much of where we are as a country, as a people, folks are looking for some kind of perfection out there that is just... It's unrealistic. And they need to look in the mirror because they are likely not perfect. So you can't be asking for something that you can also offer. Yeah, yeah. So Coach Uri. Yeah, let's do it.

Some tips, a game plan for Lily. Okay, Lily, listen up. You've been dating this way for a while. And you know that you want to get married and have kids based on the letter. So you really need to shift your approach to dating if you want to get different results. And so right now, it seems like she's almost going after this prom date type person. Fine, you want to dance tonight away with...

them. And she really needs to shift for looking for a life partner. And so what that means is recognizing different traits. And so I have this tool called the Post Date 8. And these are eight questions you ask yourself after a date. So these are things like, what side of me did they bring out? How did I feel in my body around them? Did I feel heard? Did they make me laugh?

And how that helps you is instead of going on the date and thinking, wow, this person is really hot or having a checklist. Do they have a good enough job? Are they tall enough? You're actually paying attention to your body. Do I feel comfortable with this person? Am I having fun with this person? And there's just psychological research that shows.

If you are looking for certain things during an experience, you pay more attention to those things. So by having to answer the questions afterwards, you will pay attention to how you feel in your body. And this honestly is advice that people can use in all aspects of your life. to Lily is get over the spark, go after the slow burn. One of the best ways to do that is to take the post-date eight questions after a date. I love the post-date eight.

Thank you. And what you'll find, Lily, is that you'll see over time, oh, wow, I'm starting to like this person even more and more. They're really opening up to me. And so what you're looking for is a trend over time of liking them more. And when you feel that spark with someone, that's... exciting, but also be a bit skeptical of it. Are you actually feeling chemistry or are you feeling anxiety?

I would also recommend that she gets super clear on what she wants. So if she wants marriage and kids, talk about that earlier on. Because if you and the guy are not on the same page, You should be moving forward. That's something that I hear from young people. I don't want to talk about that. I don't want to seem too thirsty. I don't want to scare them off. You say what? I totally get why it's scary because you're like, I don't want to come on too strong. And then.

they'll run away. But the truth is that if they're looking for the same thing, then it won't be a problem. And so we actually did cool research on this at Hinge, where we had different profiles. We showed them to 12,000 people. And some of the profiles would say,

I'm looking for a long-term partner, something cuter, like I'm looking for somebody to combine my bookshelves with. And then the other one would say, I'm looking for somebody kind and adventurous. What we found is that if you're looking for something serious and long-term, you're more likely to...

message the person who is. But maybe even better, if you're not looking for something long-term, when you see that somebody is, you're less likely to message them. And so what it means is it just makes dating more efficient. You're basically weeding out the people that don't want what you want. And so, yes, maybe it does send somebody running for the hills. But they should run. They should run. They were not your person. And so I think so much of the work that I do is...

for people is saying, be bold and be willing to turn the wrong people off and the right people on. And so you don't have to put on your profile, like if you're not interested in marriage, swipe left. Like that's the wrong energy. But on a first date, it might sound like. I've been dating for a while. I recently became an aunt. I'm looking to get married and have kids. What about you? What are you looking for?

What I did was I was calm and I was modeling that kind of honest answer. And the person might say, I just got to have a long-term thing. I'm just looking to have fun. And then you can say, great, well, let's enjoy this drink. Wish you well. You know, so be willing to turn some people off because that was not your person. Yeah. Love that. Well. Go ahead.

No, I would just say that's great, direct, clear advice, not just for Lily, but I think a lot of people are going to hear themselves and be able to take something. I think overall, it's that, you know, I hear building. Building is the key to a good relationship, a long-lasting relationship, if that's what people are looking for. Well, I always say it's okay if that's what you don't want, if that's not what you want.

And not everybody wants to be married. Not everybody wants the hard work of a relationship. That's another thing I try to tell young people is sort of ask yourself that question. Is this what you want? Marriage isn't for everybody, and it doesn't have to be. I find it a beautiful experience. I think it's worth it. I encourage the young people in my life to try to do that work.

It's not for everybody, and it doesn't have to be. But if you are interested, it's a slow burn, and it requires work, and nothing is perfect. I have to ask you how optimistic or not unoptimistic are you about dating moving forward? Because there's... I mean, we've done a lot of talking. The whole, just the whole endeavor of dating. Just the whole endeavor. How are you feeling about it? I feel like people need a reset.

I think people are moving in the wrong direction in certain ways and they really do need this reset. So for example, I'll talk to a lot of people in their 20s and they'll say, oh, dating apps have ruined dating. And then they tell me the things that are going on and I'm like...

That happened before dating apps. That happened on Sex and the City. And so in some ways, dating is just hard. You are putting your full self forward, and then somebody is choosing to accept you or reject you, and that really hurts. And so I think that we sort of need... build up this muscle around putting ourselves out there, being willing to be rejected, shooting our shot. And so the thing that really worries me the most is when people just say, I'm not dating.

And I feel like in our country, there's sort of a lack of nuance. It's like, it could be I'm focusing on work, but I'm open to meeting someone. But it feels very like, you know, on-off switch, no dimmer. And why can't it just be like, I'm open to meeting someone instead of... having this identity of I'm not dating. And so there are things that worry me, but I think that we can get back on track. Good stuff.

Thanks, Coach Uri. Thank you. This was so fun. Thanks for having me. I think it's terrific. I think you are amazing, smart, clear, concise, and you've done the research. So you've got facts behind your advice. It's really great having you on. Thanks so much.

Hi, Gretchen, Craig Robinson, and my little sister Michelle here. We host a new podcast called IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. We know you're the queen of giving advice, so we wanted to get a few tips from you. Gretchen, a lot of our listeners are going through some major life changes. What advice do you have for folks who are trying to stay grounded in the midst of major life transitions?

Craig and Michelle, I am so happy to be talking to you. Here are a few questions that might help us gain perspective. So consider questions like this. What activities take up my time but are not particularly useful or stimulating for me? Do I spend a lot of time on something that's important to someone else? but it's not very important to me. If I could magically change one habit in my life, what would I choose?

And here's a question. Would I like to have more time in solitude, restorative solitude, or would I like to have more time with friends? You know, just thinking about questions like this can help us start to figure out how we might make our lives happier. With greater self-knowledge, we're better able to make hard decisions that reflect ourselves, our own nature, our own interests, our own values.

In my own case, I have found that the more my life reflects my nature, the happier I get and the more grounded I feel when I'm going through a period of major change or transition. For more great advice, search for Happier with Gretchen Rubin wherever you get your podcasts.