The season of winter can be full of darkness, cold, and waiting. Winter creates limits. The days are shorter, we're stuck inside, and the sun itself, or at least it's warmth, is elusive. Often that we can be even closed off in our own minds. As the dark and cold work their way inward, we're made keenly aware of our longing for restoration. But the story doesn't end there. The limits aren't just a challenge, they're an
opportunity. It is into the midst of the world's limitations that the God of the universe comes after months of darkness in a womb. God is not afraid of constriction. Beginning on that one unique dark night. He instead works within time and space, offers us an invitation to participate.
With him we can embody godly generosity and joviality as a community full of hope precisely in the time and space allotted to us. Not in one grand gesture, but in the habitual creation of concentrated warmth and cheer, in making rich food and hot drinks and telling stories and lingering as we see each other more fully in long conversations by the fire. This is a poignant picture of
the life of the church. While we see darkness and cold all around us, with our redeemed imaginations, we can live in intentional defiance of them, as God in the flesh did. Our winter content will focus on this theme, the reality of God in the flesh and what that means, with a calendar full of warmth, cheer and hope. Because our Lord is found with
us in our limitations. Welcome to the Imagination Redeemed podcast, where we follow the great stories further up and further in in pursuit of the life of Christ. Welcome to Imagination Redeemed everyone. I'm Brian Brown at joined as usual by Sarah Howell. Hi, Sarah. Hi, Brian. Good to see you. We're going to have some fun because today is our second seasonal kick off.
We started doing this episode last season and it's a chance for us to give you guys a little preview into what's coming up because as I have just indicated, our, our winter season transcends a, a pretty interesting array of, of church holidays. We've got in the season Advent and we've got Christmas and we've got Epiphany, which is a little bit lesser known among some of you.
And then we've got this little awkward dark lull in January, which is sort of that, that time when we're all depressed after Christmas and it's the darkest time of the year. And there isn't really anything going on. And then Easter and 2026 is pretty early, which means Lent
starts early. So our next, our three month season, December, January, February is actually going to literally encompass at least parts of Advent all the way through Lent. So while we have this one of the best holidays of the church year in the middle of it, we're also both in terms of the weather and in terms of the season itself hitting this season of kind of two different seasons rather of darkness and fasting and whatnot.
So Sarah, we we started talking about what we wanted to do with the season and we thought, let's talk about cheerful things. So let's talk about cheerful things. So I piped in and said. Let's talk about our limitations. Because let's get all philosophical about this. But but in all, in all seriousness, you did a really, really nice job kind of driving us through the the planning process for this.
Because it's such a beautiful opportunity both as we reflect at the beginning of the season on the limits that God took on when he at the incarnation, but also there's so much that we can draw from as we confront our own limits in the face of God's abundance. It's one of those things where there's so much truth in old sayings and proverbs and old wives tales and all these things that we've heard from people since we were five but have shrugged off since we were five.
There's, there are a lot of those things where you, you, you just kind of have to go through life. And then at some point, like you're ready, as Lewis said, to start reading fairy tales again. And you realize how that old saying from 10/20/40 years ago has so much truth in it. And you're, it's like your heart is ready for it.
And then yeah, at at the same time we've just wrapped up Four Seasons, 4 calendar seasons, which added up to Season 4 of Imagination Redeemed and to some extent that's an artificial line in the sand. But hey, we are drawing that artificial line in the sand because we've got a year of the
new format under our belts. We've got a fantastic revolving door of regular guests and first time guests and we're ready for Season 5. And just to give our listeners a bit of a preview, we are in this next year, in 2026, working to integrate what we do here on the podcast with the rest of Anselm's programming for a few reasons. One is efficiency. We'd love to be able to put less
work into more value. But another is for, for those of you who live in Colorado Springs and can be participants face to face in our relational community and our gatherings, we want this podcast to be kind of an above and beyond thing that adds richness and depth and sustained, sometimes teaching, but often just conversation and exploration of, of themes. And, and you guys will will see that with our our next episode,
which we'll tease in a moment. But also it's a chance for those of you who are not local to Colorado Springs to get more, well, not just get more glimpses into our events, but enjoy them a bit more. We're going to try to get better at this storytelling that we do on the show doing. We do that at our events anyway. So we're going to try to get better at those kinds of recordings, those kinds of moments, capturing them and sharing them on the podcast.
So there's kind of a two way dialogue between what we do face to face and then what we do online. So if if you can enjoy both, they complement each other better and if you can only enjoy one, IE the the non local, this it's it's deeper and richer and equips you and empowers you better. So having said all of that, Sarah, what drew you to this theme? Limits and constriction and opportunity in the face of that, or maybe even because of that, what drew you to that?
Yeah, I mean, you were talking earlier, Brian. We were about about the church calendar and, and honestly, it was thinking about how Christmas is sandwiched between these two really dark. What I often experience is painful times in the church calendar, the time of expectation and the longing and then this beautiful Christmas
moment. And then we go back into what feels like the darkness all around us and Lent as we wait for Easter. And so being at the at the heart of that, that was Christ at the heart of the feast is, is his incarnation. And I'm a new mom.
So the scandal of incarnation feels a a little bit more real as I've gone through a lived experience of, of birth and of taking care of a new life and to think about the God of the universe coming down and partaking and, and being with us. The the scandal of, of our human limitations and our bodily limitations.
What I'm primarily thought of before I wrote up the theme was John Updike's poem, 7 stanzas as Easter, actually, because you know, the, the end of Christ's life is him on the cross and ultimately his resurrection. And so if I could read a bit of that poem, John starts the poem with this. Make no mistake, if he rose at all, it was as his body. If the cell's disillusion did not reverse, the molecule re knit, the amino acids rekindle, the church will fall.
And he goes on and to say things like the same hinged thumbs and toes, the same valved heart. Then later, let us not mock God with metaphor, analogy, sidestepping, transcendence, making of the event a parable. And I just love how poignantly he puts together how uncomfortable I am with my own limitations. But if I'm uncomfortable with mine, my hinged thumbs, my toes, I have to reckon with Jesus having hinged thumbs and toes as well.
And So what better place to start for me in in the midst of these two bread slices, the the true meat of of the season, which is Jesus himself. Well said, and thanks for sharing that poem. I'm going to I'm going to look it up and read the whole thing afterwards because that's there were even even in the bits that you read, there were parts where I was thinking, oh, that's so insightful and beautiful. And there are parts where I was going, wait, what? As as as a good poem should do. Yes.
Yeah. The other thing I would, I would add to that in terms of my, my interest and excitement in this is I feel like there are so many of us, whether you think of us as totally unique individuals or as demographic subgroups, kind of anywhere you draw the line, there is so much of modern life. And by modern life, I just mean right now that we experience as
limits. We're always having, whether we're thinking about our jobs and all of their limitations and all the things we don't like about them and our manager and all that sort of thing. There are so many things about growing up, adulthood, marriage, parenting, you know, pick a phase that we experience as limits. And there's a lot of modern life that takes a lot of the good things, scripturally speaking, and wants us to understand them
as limits, right? Since since the fall, since the garden, so many good things are presented as surely God wouldn't want to hold that back from you. Surely he wouldn't want to limit you to that thing. And you can almost pick, you know, read the news and pick an angry group, pick a group that's feeling disaffected. And so much of it is because they feel disenfranchised. So much of it is because they feel like I can't win in what is in front of me.
And they all have their own version of who the bad guy is in that situation. But not, not many of them and not not many of the voices that they hear meet them in those limitations and say yes. But yes, most of them just want to kind of feed the frustration and, and, and weaponize it in some way, right? And I'm glad you brought that up because I, I was also seeing this season and, and these questions we're bringing up fundamentally asking questions
about power and freedom. And I'd I think that it's important even if I don't know if you've ever heard the phrase research is me search. No, Yeah, but like the the things that in in the academic world or yeah, I guess in the academic world it's I'll, I'll say that over in the academic world, I there's this that phrase research is research because often what you end up wanting to explore are things that you actually desperately need to know the answers for.
And I feel like that is this theme for me in a lot of ways too, because fundamentally that we need to parse the difference between what is a limitation that has come by the fall. I think a chronic illness could be an example of a bodily limitation, that it wasn't intended by God's design.
However, there are also these other kinds of limitations, Brian, like you're mentioning that we want to see as negative, whereas I think what's going on there is we have a poor conception of what true freedom is. Yeah, it isn't lack of restriction on my will to get
whatever I want. But even there, I I've had so many conversations, I think particularly in political contexts where someone immediately responds to that with, you know, you're just trying to keep me down or like the patriarchy or something, right, like that. Whatever your attempt to say, limits can be freeing. Wow, that's just exactly what you would say.
So we want to be able to explore this concept both through some theological lenses and through some practical lenses, the kinds of situations that we find ourselves in. And so each of the episodes that we are laying with, each one is, is both something that you would feel in winter, but it's also something you would experience metaphorically speaking. So case in point, we're going to sneak out really quickly just a
few days after this episode. December 6th is the feast day of Saint Nicholas. And we thought that was a perfect opportunity to do something that I, in my strangeness, have wanted to talk about for a long time, which is joviality. And so we're going to talk about the constriction of time. And all of our listeners just heard those two things and they're already thinking, A, what did you mean by joviality? And B, what does that have to do
with time? So we're going to talk about the legend of Saint Nicholas, but we're going to also talk about some very challenging questions related to what what it looks like to, to practice joy, to inhabit this thing we call joy. Because there is a, a lost art in there, a lost virtue in there. In the space between me not feeling joyful and this thing I want to have called joy.
Something like we can just pray for there's an actual art, there's an actual skill that we can learn in the face of that. And so we are going to be joined by new friends, Joffrey Swait, who I met fairly recently, and we're going to have a lovely conversation about joviality and hopefully laugh a whole bunch. And I think, Brian, I'm so excited that we get to focus on your research triviality. But also, I think it's just at
the proper time. I mean, maybe that's why Saint Nicholas matters so much to us during that Christmas Advent season, because it's at the fullness of time that Christ came. But also it matters to our lived experience of the month of December because I feel like there is so much demanded of us during that time. There's these big gaps for us in terms of forcing things into schedules that don't fit and having an expectation from people that this is a time to reflect and be somber.
And yet where does that fit? And yet there's also this expectation that we should have joy and be happy and be a part. Of. It's it's Christmas exactly, but somehow both are hard to come by in the season.
And so I found even just in talking to you a little bit about why joviality matters, it it was hitting my soul for where I actually am right now this December, and giving the actual practical kind of footholds to figure out how to be in this weird December moment where you are asked to be a part of a time that we don't really even understand ourselves yet. What does it mean to practice Advent appropriately? What does it mean to have joy and to practice being joyful at
Christmas? Without just trying Harder stupid, which is kind of our default when we hit December and Mariah Carey is assaulting our senses at every store that we enter and we're watching Christmas movies that sort of beat us over the head with how happy we're supposed to feel. And unless we're in a very particular place in life, often it's quite difficult. And Try Harder. Stupid can't be the answer because it never works. OK, so we'll get through joviality.
We've talked, we've explored at this point the constriction of time. Then we're going to hit January and we're going to consider the constriction of means because hey, we've just gotten through Christmas and we got a bunch of
presents. But also we're broke again because we just bought everybody presents and bought food we don't normally get and had out of town guests and whatever the case may be. And so that we thought they, the constriction of means, the experience of whether it's stuff or whether it's just emotional bandwidth, just I've got nothing left to give. What does generosity look like in that context? And I actually should call this
out. I didn't even notice this until 10 minutes before he started recording Sarah. But all of our stories this season, our Middle Eastern, Eastern Europe based. So we're going East to explore these questions related to the incarnation, which seems appropriate somehow. Right.
Moving towards our culture, though, our cultural moment, Something that I find interesting too about thinking about our means, especially in January is how while that's the time we feel the most tapped out, maybe financially, maybe emotionally, physically, all three.
It's also the time our culture wants us to take kind of the, the needle and throttle things even further with this new start mantra of New Year's resolutions, the new gym membership, Also our desire to kind of clamp down and control our lives after the craziness of the holidays, right? There's this almost idealism about our means. And yet we actually have the least amount of capacity also in January, not to mention literally the energy from the sun. We don't have very much at that
time either. And so there's this tension of what does it mean to better ourselves to to move towards generosity? But not out of our own supply, but through participation in the life of God through the church and looking at different sources. And so I'm excited about talking about that because it does seem so otherworldly. Yeah. So we're going to go to Tolstoy for that one. Yeah, So January, what does it look like to actually feel like we can afford to be generous? What if?
What could happen that could possibly nudge my mental, emotional, spiritual needle into that place again? Absent, try harder, stupid. And then we're going to blink and it's going to be lent and we're going to consider the constriction of space, which hey, some of us will experience already in December without of found guests and things like that. But winter in general tends to
kind of drive us indoors. And I, we, we have radiator heating and I in half the house and like very little heating, like inadequate heating in the rest of the house. So I feel like in winter I'm always sort of trapped in the sauna on the one hand or the icebox in the other.
On a metaphorical level, I also do see Lent as kind of claustrophobic because no matter how hard you try to run away from, you know, the deep, deep corners of yourself, no matter how hard you try to like start the new me in January, you end up around February. And when you use, if you do practice any form of Lent where you start reflecting on and preparing yourself for Christ's crucifixion, I find that to be a claustrophobic experience. It's like, oh, there's not
enough space. I can't get away. I'm stuck here. I'm still here. It's still the same thing. There's a monotony, I think, to a lack of space. Even getting to even more philosophically these concepts of freedom, right? Like if we have a notion of freedom which is boundless, then the constriction of space is the most stressful to us, right? So I'm excited to kind of think about those concepts too, when
we think about literal space. Yeah, well, so did you, Did your family do much with Lent growing up or is that more of an adult discovery for you? It's more an adult discovery. OK, same. OK, Yep. So we'll have some fun with that, whether you as our listeners are in a church that does a lot with lents to prepare for Easter or not. This is going to be a fun one. And we get to talk about one of my favorite books by a living author, which is A Gentleman in Moscow, which is going to be
awesome. If I could say a note about all three of these, Brian, I think that all of these are exciting to handle within the season. We've given them December, January and February because these are hardest to engage at these times, right? And so that's when we. Want to? We're hitting ourselves in our weak points. Exactly, exactly.
We're not talking about the the, the constriction of space when it's summer and there seems to be endless time on the calendar for us to move about and move around and everyone is starting about outside, right? We're talking about it when we just can't handle being inside one more day and then the snow falls again. I know I'll. Turn on a podcast that tells me I should I should just not be like that. Right.
Oh boy. So I mean, we have a big responsibility here, not to say try harder stupid, but I think if I could bring in the some, some beautiful things from the tradition of of virtue ethics. There's a concept in virtue ethics that you don't know if you have a virtue until you have to put it into practice, but you also don't really have the virtue until you put it into practice. So the paradigmatic case is courage. You can't be courageous until you are doing something that is
courageous, so to speak. But also, how then do you, how then are you going to be the kind of person who can step forward and be courageous if you haven't practiced it? So there's this sort of paradoxical conundrum where you have to make little efforts with these little, little practices so that you kind of can become the kind of person who can make the big effort, like do the thing and, and do it in a way that it just comes naturally to some degree, right?
It's, it's the you must you, you couldn't think of anything else but do that thing which happened to be courageous. And I'd like to think about these constrictions within helping us practice the virtue of magnanimity. Have you, have you thought a little bit about that one? It's kind of a goodness. It's a very misunderstood and very lost virtue. Yes, weirdly, yes, I, so I had a when I was studying theology after college, I had a mentor who was very big on magnanimity. And.
OK, so it in, in the sort of the kingly virtues in general, I think are including joviality is one of them, which is what we're going to kick off with next week. The yeah, the, the, the sort of kingly virtues in general, I think are, are neglected a bit to the point where, yeah, we just said that word and probably most of our listeners are would not respond the way I did when you asked it. And they they're thinking what even I have a vague idea of what that is, but only the vaguest idea.
So, so there's definitely going to be a sense of recovering some lost virtues in this conversation. We want to be able to give you, our listeners, some some tools that you may or may not have grown up with. In many cases, we may not, may or may not have grown up with, but that are available in a 2000 year old religion.
Right. And if I could give a little anger that my daughter's namesake actually gave me about what this virtue is at first, at first glance, it's also helpful to know that from the Latin Magnus that is great and animus is soul. So we're talking about someone who has great is greatly sold it like has a. And so you might say like, what does that even mean?
But the anchor that my dear Elena Berry told me is that it's kind of easier to think about this within the image of Tolkien's story and how he writes about. Everything is. But we have these little hobbits who are asked to do something that is too big for them. I mean, they have to step into these shoes before they actually fit for this great journey that they have to partake, right? And so you need to practice in order to have it. And at the end, the King of Men bow down to them.
And so the question that I have when we think about the constriction of time is like, how do we become the kind of people who have great souls? And paradoxically, I think it's interesting to consider how God uses the constrictions of our lives to bring us the invitation to step into shoes that are too big for us and, and to image Jesus who did that himself,
right? And to have him as our as our exemplar as well as the hobbits, because you always need, you always need a Hobbit as your exemplar. Yeah. And in general, the the you leading into that with with Tolkien just is, is a great
connection point. And this whole season is going to be a great connection point with our larger idea at Anselm that part of how your soul is formed and ought to be formed is through the great stories and dialogue with the great stories, both in a in a sort of chronological Chronos Cairo's time sense inhabiting the larger meta narrative of of scripture and of God, but also in the sense that these these small stories, they don't they don't just teach us something in a
take away, a sort of sense. They, they form our souls. Have you have you ever heard the this is This is neither here nor there, but it's hilarious if you ever heard the quote about Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. No. It's oh, gosh. OK, so it's this absolutely brutal quote from John Rogers, but I love it. I told it to a group of high schoolers recently, and there was just dead silence. Nobody laughed because nobody
got the joke. But if you But if you deal it to the right audience and listeners, I'm hoping most of you are among them. But in the comments whether you are or not. Yes, so the the quote goes like this. There are two novels that can change a bookish 14 year old's life.
The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged 1 is a childish fantasy that often engenders A lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs, which, as someone who hates Alice Shrunk I, I think is just hilarious.
That's wonderful. Well, but, but I think it the reason why that's so funny is because I think, at least for you and I, we've experienced what kind of life comes from an imagination focused on seeing everything as pragmatic and everyone as kind of out to get you and that you're really the only one you can depend on. I think that like that is the kind of life you have when your imagination is malformed by a by a story like Atlas Drug that like truly your limitations are
your enemy. And I do think to your point, stories are not just propositional content that have a good moral at the end, but it's actually letting us inhabit with different eyes a world that can hold hope so. And the reason that so many stories like Lord of the Rings is a good example of that, of a story that means so much to so many people, because it's sort of it gives them that whole
world all together. Not just not in the sense of Middle Earth, but in the sense of this this story world inhabited by the Christian ethos, by a a more complex explanation of the nature of of right and wrong and nobility and courage and sacrifice and loyalty and goodness. And, but, but so much of what we have sought to build as the ENSEM society and continue to to seek to build is that that story came from somewhere. It's wonderful that that's the
story. Or there are others, of course, that that have meant so much to you and that have brought you into this larger world. But there is in fact, that larger world. Lord of the Rings is not the larger world. The Lord of the Rings is your gateway into what did, what did Tolkien read that that made him like this, that allowed him to write a story like this. And so, so much of what we want to get into is that larger world and all of the stories that are the the, the tapestry of that
world. Side note, points to you for that incredibly skillful transition from my goofy quote and Atlas Shrugged to the larger limitations theme. I, I, I, if I, if I were wearing a cap, I would tip my cap to you. That was extremely well done. Fine, OK, so we, as we wrap up, Oh, and by the way, listeners, if you were wondering why are these two people so down on Iron Rand and Atlas Shrugged, drop a note in the comments and we would be happy to fill you in. So Sarah, any, any final
thoughts? So we're going to get into these episodes. Joviality, construction of time, generosity, construction of means, warmth, construction of
space. We're going to explore stories and explore aspects of the Christian tradition that can equip us to become deeper and wiser and more stable and more beautiful and more good people, more conformed to the image of Christ. Not just by trying harder, Stupid. Any final thoughts before we sign off for the day and jump into the actual episodes next week? Yeah, I actually I have some thoughts from a question you prompted a couple a couple weeks back when we were discussing this theme.
Brian and I want to hear your the answer to your own question you asked a while ago. What do you hope that we feel by the end of the season? Not just understand intellectually, but actually feel. Can we just pause and appreciate how much emotional maturity I've I've accumulated in 40 years to allow me to, to ask a question like that? Mister Mr. Left Brained, I know you go first. I'll jump in next.
Yeah. And and maybe this will, this will show my cards of how much more emotional maturing I have to do because I couldn't think of a specific emotion, but I could think of an image for myself and for others. I want myself as well As for others to be able to smile a little bit more when they run into their limitation. And, and the image that I have is for some of us, that might be like a tiny uptick of our metaphorical or literal mouths.
But the, the image that I had was I as a kid remember being really grumpy or, you know, having my own sort of temper tantrum, depending on how age appropriate was at the time to do so. But I remember a couple of my family members being able to kind of draw me out of it a little bit through their joy and through cracking jokes to make
me feel better. But I distinctly remember that that experience of feeling and staying kind of grumpy externally, but some of their joys kind of sloughing off onto me and they're being a little uptick of, you know, the the corners of my mouth smiling. And and and I say it that way. And that's my desire. Maybe because we need to spend more time thinking about hope. And that is maybe a poor expectation to have, but also because I think there is such a weight that comes to our limitations.
Some of us have chronic illnesses. A lot of what comes from the true tension points of the limitations that matter to us matter because they feel like they are the places where we feel excluded. And and so this is this is a hard, this is a hard thing. We're trying to to engage the season.
And, and I want to be mindful of that for my own heart, but also for the hearts of others that I, I really do desire for the Lord to come in and show us that our limitations can't on the whole, is what it means to be a creature. And that our limits that are designed by God are the gift of particularity is the gift of me, Sarah being me, Sarah, not someone else. But they also come at great costs and they come with the weight of the brokenness of this
world. So. So we're going to tackle original sin. No biggie. That's really interesting. I love that. I love that. The same group of high schoolers that I've mentioned earlier, I asked them all they're about for 35 of them, I asked each of them what the big, the big question was they were wrestling with right now. And about a third of them said the problem of evil. The other 2/3 were a bunch of random things. But the the, the most common answer by far was the problem of evil.
And a lot of that had come from experiences of grief in in their own life. So I love the thought that we could make a dent in that that question. But also, yeah, limitations as a as a created thing and not just limitations in the sense of of post lapsarian limitations to fall limit limitations. I guess I would I would probably how would I hope to feel at the end of this? This definitely falls into the category of me search.
But I think if we do our job right, if, if God speaks through us in these episodes, us and our guests, I would hope that our listeners and me personally at the end of each episode and at the end of the season feel a greater sense of divine abundance because each if if there's a through line in the the secret answer or key to each of these challenges, joviality, generosity and warmth, it's that it's not, it's it's encountering divine abundance in our limitations.
And I think I've heard too many sermons or podcasts that are an attempt to deal with limitations by shrugging them off and preaching the divine abundance. But what does it mean to actually encounter the divine abundance in our limitations? Not just sort of pretend they don't exist or don't matter?
Because boy, if you get me in a situation where I have a pulled hamstring and a short night of sleep and something I'm stressed out about that's coming up and something that's, you know, triggering some anxiety about something or other. And you, you put all of that into my mind and my body and then put me, give me an actual practical concrete right in front of me challenge to handle. If I'm doing well, I can do joviality pretty well. Like I have a pretty natural
twinkle to my eye. Well, that goes out real fast in the face of the right set of circumstances and. As I grow, as I get more mature, that becomes less the case. But it's a slow journey for me and I know I'm not alone in that, whether it's with that virtue or with something else. So for me, abundance. That's awesome. That's awesome and that that really articulates better than I could ever so far have put please. What are you? What are you smiling at, though,
Sarah? You know, like I want people to smile at their limitation, but why would you smile? And I, and I think that that's exactly what you're talking about. There is this acknowledgement that there is something here. It's not just a lack. And so to kind of unpack that more is is our goal and I'm excited to explore with you, Brian. Likewise, let's do it. Well, listeners, we will see you next week to talk about joviality with Joffrey Swaid, and we're going to have a jovial time together.
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