Let's flip the script a little bit. I want listeners to hear a bit more about your guys work. You've been very kind and generous. And. Letting me talk about ours down in in Colorado Springs, but tell me more about how the two of you started collaborating on these kinds of projects and how that gave birth to to your own work in Callous Arts. Well, Benjamin Harding and I have been friends for quite a while now, about 20 years, 20 plus years.
And we're both musicians and intersected in New England where we were both studying. And over the years as we've engaged the world of the arts, particularly classical music and and the musical arts, we detected some common patterns and we've been collaborating Benjamin Plates and recorded some of my works. He's a brilliant pianist and an extremely talented soul and did me the honor of recording some of my music. He performed in some concerts.
Well, as we got to COVID and the lockdowns occurred, both of us had more opportunity to introspect. And I don't think that's unique to us. And Benjamin had started a mastermind group, essentially convening friends and people who was in the affinity to navigate that journey. But also take a checkpoint on what is the nature of art making in art and what is the nature of
our own calling as believers. And Benjamin, I'll let you pick it up. I think from the mastermind willing seeded something for what we're doing now. We were asking very practical questions, what it means to be an artist in this world. And we were collecting basically people together who from a variety of backgrounds, film composers, technologists, etcetera, but all Christian men
that wanted to further the arts. And so Gustav and I came out of that conversation, that mastermind that gathered over COVID for a number of months, if not a year. We we decided to create an organization that would be the voice of the church in the arts. And so to create new works of art that would represent the Lord and his church in the future, be missionaries to the future for our grandkids, for
our great grandkids. We wanted to take that mantle up and reclaim beauty, but also create beauty that would outlast us. Oh, that's beautiful. It's it's so funny. Like we, I think a lot of the temptation with the the art world is to sort of pursue immortality the same way that the ancient pagans did. The sense of I want to, I want to do something that will allows outlast me, But there's just that sense of I hope I can be so great that I'll still be read in a couple generations.
That the Christian version of that, though, is different because there's this sense of on the one hand, you don't have or you shouldn't have this idea that, well, it's it's for Jesus and it's the thought that counts it the motivation that counts. It doesn't have to be very good. Well, no, ineffective for Jesus is still ineffective. But, but when you're offering when? You have that sense of I'm I'm pursuing excellence. You're you're. Participating in the work of Christ and that's inherently
intergenerational. One of the things I've seen on on on my end is I just I want to see more people who are creating art is in dialogue with the great tradition. It's in dialogue with the past that's informed by past and therefore has more of that long term orientation toward the future. Tell me a little bit about the how of that. Yeah, I'll, I'll start.
And Benjamin, you can weigh in. But to echo the point, when we want to be the the voice of the church through the arts and, and as you described it, that tradition is an embodied testimony of what the life of faith is. From those times. We cleave to JRR Tolkien, we cleave to Dante, we cleave to these writers who are just as material of flesh and blood and just as challenged to live day by day as we are, and no different.
They're not different in nature. And what they left to us are part of that treasury of high beauty and sometimes lower beauty, but beauty itself. And it is also an expression of what it means to follow Christ in their time. And if we fail as the church because we cannot value the pursuit of art, because we either distrust it or or don't value it, because we think material things don't matter. And, and Brian, you've shared some wonderful thoughts to that
end. We're effectively silent when we should speak because no generation of the church is absolved of its responsibility to speak the truths of the gospel. And that's the literal gospel as handed down. But it is the manifestation of the gospel when life's transformed. And how do you share what it means to live on a practical level, on a real human, the heart level?
It's through artworks, so artists in dialogue and inspired by that tradition of our faith speaking in our time, as we've said it is. I deeply believe we have no idea what will survive us from our time. So chasing the brass ring of fame or celebrity or My name will be immortal. What you see written on the ancient Persian kings and all of it. This is a known human trait. That's not really the point.
The point is to have left a testimony of time because only those alive now can leave the testimony of our time. That's we're the only ones who can do it. And to neglect that, the metal picture I have, it's like a river where suddenly there's this giant void that floats down the river and it's just empty, a natural empty because we couldn't or were afraid to speak. So the church should be creating out of what does it mean to be in communion with Christ And not every moment is transcended
glory on the mountain. Some of it's very mundane, the beauty of an apple in a bowl. Is a still. Life, these things. Yeah, there's lots of paintings of apples. Why do we need another? It's because it's not a painting of an apple. It's a conversation with the soul, with the embodied reality of our moment. And if we don't speak, there is no greatness to sift and discover for those who follow.
So when Benjamin says we view our nurturing of the artistic voice of the church, it's a form of missionary work to our great grandchildren because we won't speak the gospel truth to them directly. But from our time, if we have embodied faithfulness in Christ through these works, that is the culture that will shape their thinking every bit as much as any theologian, far more than any politician or talking head on ATV screen. Those things that hit the heart
will endure generations. So we do believe that the work of artists is missionary work to the future. What do you see as the role of callous and pushing toward that and any clipping people toward that? Indeed, we are building community right now. We've been in existence for a number of years, laying the groundwork to be really, in effect, a production company to bring works of art to fruition, whether there be musical art,
written art, fine art. We want to bring this work, this new body of work, to the world and we want to enable the church to speak. So we're basically a production company. Christian artists, whether they're fine artists or written word artists or musicians, we're a production company. We want to bring them to fruition in the fullest way so that audiences can actually encounter the music. We think that the fullest expression of a piece of music, let's say, is through encounter.
And so we have a conference coming up here at the end of September where we're bringing together yourself, Brian and other intellectual thinkers and artists to present. We have some choral music that's going to be presented. Good stuff. Can you talk to us about the, the, the conference that's coming up? So exciting because this embodies what I want to say is that this embodies what we're all about.
And if you want to get to know us, you need to come to our events because that's where you encounter. Yeah, I would add, Brian, what inspires me about Anselm and the work you do is you really emphasize the embodied nature of feasts. And, and we want to do the same. But instead of a conference where it's speakers simply talking about beauty, for us the conference is a chance for people to come and seek to encounter it through these
artworks. So we have poetry, we have musical work, we have visual artwork and the invitation is for people. Even if it's foreign, it's alien. Because the high arts, for lack of a better term, can be a little bit off putting, seem a little foreign and alien and and art desires. No, this is all in service to you. Please come and we'll help you seek beauty through these. And it doesn't mean that every person will love every artwork.
We're we're not scoring the outcome, whether it's great, good, liked, disliked, we are presenting and really it is our hope that non artists, but those who want and understand that beauty matters will come and basically be discipled in how do you take ownership of these opportunities to find beauty? Here's how to listen for music in a way maybe you weren't taught because you didn't have it in your school or you've never understood visual art and its language and its vocabulary.
But if you knew just a little bit, it would open up vistas where you now will appropriate those moments of beauty and make them your own. That's it's not about the artwork. The artwork is an invitation to beauty. And how do we invite people? We need to open the door and close the gap of understanding so that we can make that possible. So our mission, Benjamin said it beautifully. It's best expressed when human beings are in the presence of the physical artworks, whether it be music.
Whether it be? Spoken, recited poetry, whether it be a canvas, not a screen, grab, not a Google Images pixelated version. The actual thing. And then be invited. How to discover the beauty of that moment for their own soul. That's our hope. Well said. Yeah. And I want to just affirm for for the listeners what you just said there about closing the gap because so often we can kind of write ourselves off. Whether it's from. Particular art form or something else.
And that's even the the work that you might find off putting or or yeah, I don't I don't understand this. Aren't these things that they're They're not. Supposed to be beyond you. Forever. It's OK if something appeal. If thing A appeals to you initially more than thing B, that doesn't mean thing B is always beyond your reach. I I there was a point in my young adulthood where not not that young adulthood. I mean, wasn't that long ago. I I'd never really liked cheese.
That was always like even even if I my mom handed me cheddar cheese as a kid like I would, I would do everything possible to try to avoid eating it. It was just a point in my adulthood where you know, you'll you'll laugh at me because this is weird, but I was just like, this is objectively a good thing. People with more developed palates than mine all around the world love this. I'm going to see if I can train my palate.
And so once a week I would go to the the local grocery store and I got kind of excited after a while about saying I had a cheese guy. There was this one guy there at the store that, you know, he just do a lot about cheese. And I already liked wine. So I would just go in and say, hey, this week I'm drinking this California Cabernet. What should I pair with it? And he would tell me about the cheese and he'd tell me about where it came from and what to
look for flavor wise. And I'd go to the little bargain bin where the little, the smaller things were cut off and it'd be $5 instead of 13 or something. And I'd go home and try it. And hey, I didn't like it a lot of the time. But I did that for several months, and at the end of several months I'd kind of gone from liking no cheese to liking probably 2/3 of of what was there. That's a thing that we can do. And sometimes all you need is a sort of hero's journey language.
But sometimes all you need is a guide and that willingness to step forward. That's certainly a part of our mission is to guide people through the works of art. And that's why we're excited to be in partnership with with the Anselm Society because you guys do that so, so well. And all that to say is that I know a friend who had a midlife crisis and he expressed this midlife crisis in his love for
cheese. So you're, you know, this is, this is, I mean, this is the second time that I've heard somebody make an advance in their humanity through the love of cheese. My next conquest was Scotch. Wow. That was more expensive. That'll be more midlife, that's more midlife, but but I've experienced a lot of cheeses because of my friends midlife crisis. I'm I'm very grateful. Nice. And if hey, if you're the person who likes cheese, you can be that that friend.
We've got a friend that always dressed her to bring. Really good. Cheese to a party. And that's sound like the quest continues because. Of her general. City yes, this just is just a random thing that occurred to me and it's OK if it takes a minute to think about the answer. Is there a work of pop art, like a movie or something that has that's meant a lot to use it that you kind of see as a window into that less accessible realm
of of high beauty? I can speak to that because my first encounter with music on a emotional, visceral level was Robin Hood with Errol Flynn. And I made all kinds of swords and became Robin Hood and sang the tunes that were composed by Korngold. Korngold was an incredible film scorer, but of course, he wrote also gorgeous symphonic literature, played well, played a violin concerto that I just heard with my son down at the Philadelphia Orchestra, the
Korngold Violin Concerto. Stunning piece of music. And so I, I love, I love watching movies, like really good film that has excellent scoring in the background. And, and for me, I was watching The Amazing Spider Man and. And I was. Like wow, that piano part is elegant. That piano part is absolutely
elegant. I get to the end of the movie and I see that it's orchestrated by our friend Jack Redford and I'm thinking, mom, goodness, Jack, this is fantastic how you scored this to orchestrated this really.
And so that's what I would say is, is find, you know, John Williams, of course, is probably the most famous composer of all time because we know all of his themes and watching anything that he has scored, whether it be 1010, I mean, the 1010 score, Peter Jackson's version of Tintin, that score for John Williams is so unique for me. But you know, of course, the blockbuster ones, you know, Jurassic Park or Star Wars and such, those are kind of entry drug so so to speak to
encountering music. Gustav, what do you think? The the film scores are an obvious choice for a couple of classic interest in classical music. They're a gateway drug, as it were. It is interesting. I think it was, I think it was the New York Times, but he was recently interviewed John Williams and basically said he never really liked film music very much. It was just a gig. And it's ironic that this paragon, he is the paragon of film scoring and his own workmanlike view of it.
And having done some ancillary work in the film world there, there is definitely a cultural high, low distinction between the film score composer and then and the concert hall composer. And really the intent of the music is different. And so you asked the question, Brian, and I'm going through mind. I think a film especially and for some reason, I don't know this is this is unscientific and
you can discard it instantly. And because I'm likely wrong, but it seems to me Eastern European cinematographers, directors of photography in our modern films give us images that are striking because they're classically informed. And there's certain visual movie being yes, we think of it as a play that comes to screen. But in our lifetimes, given the rough ages, we are, I think particularly CGI.
But but even with the colorization of film, it's every bit of photographer or visual art form as it is a narrative form. Primacy of sight in the film is interesting in the composition of a of a scene tells so much. And it's, it's a, it's a lame answer, but I can then think of great popular popcorn films and there are moments that there is the composition of an image that Harkins to some classically inspired thing. Oh, Rule of Threes is all over the place. That's just.
Woven into the fabric of what it means to exist. And so in popular art, I'm, I'm punting a little bit because I'm not as much a popular art guy. I'm just going to confess. And even I was, I was born an old man. So I've really never been a popular art guy. I'm this very fussy, unusual German dude, but I recognize the narrative that truly excellent popular art. Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's core at all.
And novels, I think of, say, the Harry Potter books, they're delightful, delightfully engaging. And they started as this is a kids book and they became a cultural phenomenon because they're not. They are. Sure, it's a kids story, but it's not really a kids story. The Hobbit was a story told by Tolkien, reportedly to just his children. It's stratospherically rich universe that people just cleave to now. But that was a popular book for kids. There's there's this.
And I would say those are, I think I share those with a lot of your listeners, a lot of just Joe Americans. I have those same, same loves, Yeah. Well, the, I mean, Madeline Lengle had that line about if it's if it's not good enough for us, it's not good enough for our children. That's that will often, not always sometimes I slip, but they'll often guide, you know. What? What? Movies I let my kids watch. They're.
Oh, that one, like it's there's nothing actively harmful in it, I suppose, but it's it's it's it's talking down to you on a profound level. Whereas you can just tell the way they get excited by the ones that are that have been informed
by past. And yeah, you have, I mean, you like Denis Ville Neuf, his films are so visual to the point where he doesn't like even including dialogue if he can help it, if he can, if he can tell something only visually, watch a couple of his movies and then go to an art exam. Duh. And similarly, Benjamin the like John Williams, John Williams actively borrowed from Korngold. So that's the beauty of if you can find a master of an art form that you like. They're.
Always a window into the past, a window into the tradition that produced them. Because then you can go and look, listen to Korngold stuff, and you can find how I don't know as much about his background, but you know, this is how Beethoven informed him and how Bach informed Beethoven. And now you're in. Now you're in. Midstream, yes. Oh, it's so good. Well, guys, I'll let you go. But first, for people who want to connect with Callus, where can they find you?
Org It's real easy KALOS arts.org Learn more about our mission. We're not only for artists, but we we do nurture these encounters. We have a conference coming up that will be eager to invite any of your listeners who are inclined and those who know Brian, you won't want to miss him speaking at our conference. He's going to be sharing some really, really intriguing thoughts with us. So you'll want to join us on September 26th and 27th as well. And there's information on our
website. Awesome. Thanks guys.