You're listening to the Identity at the Center podcast. This is the show that talks about identity and access management and making sure you know who has access to what. Let's get started. Welcome to the Identity at the Center podcast. I'm Jeff and that's Jim. Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff. How's it going? Not so bad yourself. Good. I was listening to our show the other day for the first time in a while. I I mean, I don't listen to every episode, right?
I'm on every episode. But I don't like to listen to my own voice. I think a lot of people have that aversion, and I've got to say Jeff. And so for everyone who's listening on a regular basis, they should know that you are the man behind the scenes who. Does all the editing work and everything and all the funky music in the beginning. And that's what really got me. I was like, whoa, we're like, totally pro here.
I was wondering if I could notice that I kind of slipped that change in earlier this year. I figured, yeah, New Year, let's maybe try something look different. But yeah, I don't listen to our shows, even even when I'm editing them. You know, I'm listening to them, but I'm not really listening to
them. You know, I'm looking for like background noise and like clicks and you know, trying to, you know make sure that it that it sounds as good as I can in my, you know, totally amateur and I'm sure totally unprofessional way. I headed the show. So it is totally, you know, you know, I've learned a lot over 80 plus episodes at this point. But yeah, I appreciate that. So it's, you know, it's cool. It's it's a it's a passion
project. I think between the two of us, it's kind of started and you know, here we are several months and dozens and dozens of episodes later. Well, the other day I said to somebody we were on a call together and I said, yeah, this is my favorite part of the job. And remind me, it's not really part of the job. Yeah, it would be cool. Yeah, it's it's definitely, you know, we we do have day jobs. We don't really talk about it too much, you know, but but yeah, we do.
You know, I am strategy assessments and things like that. But yeah, you know, we don't do sponsors either, so it's going to be kind of hard to turn this into, you know, a paying gig without sponsorship I guess. And and I don't know if that's where we want to go with it. So waiting for that call from Spotify, you know that $1,000,000 check right? Well I guess if you're interested in sponsoring, right you know feel free to get in touch if it makes sense as long as we can keep it, you know
relatively vendor neutral. I'm I'm pretty open to to anything at this point. I agree. I agree. You know what's really been great though has been the feedback from our listeners and somebody that. We're having on today is a listener of the show and we've been in contact with and he's somebody who puts out a lot of content himself. So Jeff, I'll pass it back to you to do the introduction.
But I think it's really cool that, you know, our listeners are reaching out and there are people who are active by and practitioners as well. Yeah, it is super cool and you know, super pumped. Actually have Carlos on the show. We'll get to him in a second here. He wrote an article that touched around, you know, how to build a successful I M program and it was on enterprisesecuritymag.com. I'll wait to the article in our show so you can kind of check
that out. And part of that article touched on managing organizational change, which I thought was interesting and it's something that sometimes gets overlooked right when we're developing programs and kind of getting things out, out and then the into the real world. So without further ado, why don't we bring on the author of that article? His name is Carlos Rodriguez. He's the director of IT security and Risk at Citizens Property Insurance. Welcome, Carlos.
Thank you, Jim and Jeff, happy to be here and I and I will start with not only thanking you for my the opportunity but for the content that you put out every day or every week. Been listening for about a year. So I. I appreciate it on behalf of the of our community. Oh, well, well, thank you so much. Hey, I feel like this deserves like a, you know, longtime listener, first time caller radio tropes.
But yeah, no, that's really cool and excited to have you here because I really want to get into that, that whole topic of the change management. But if you've been listening right, you probably know the first question, which is, you know, how did you get into the I Am space of the Infosec area? Is it something that shows you it or did you choose it? I think we chose each other. Honestly.
I grew up on the help desk rank like many and you know part of that usually involve provisioning and deprovisioning user you know from a execution point of view and building a few processes. But from there I got engaged with third party access or remote access from a security point of view, from firewalls and what have you.
Concentrators then kept growing into more of leadership roles, driving strategies for access as a whole in different organizations, My passions always being insecurity, and I discovered a few years ago that access was key to have sound security for any organization. So Carlos, we we've referenced this blog already. And the the focus on it was organizational or managing organizational change, right.
It's such a big part of anytime you roll out I M technology projects, new processes, you know the the amount of impact they have on people and managing that impact is really key to the success of your of your initiative. So tell us about the blog. Tell us about what your perspective is on change management. Sure. So, yeah, so identity and access management is a broad topic. It's a program, it's not a one
off. We're gonna put MFA here and be done or single sign on it. It's it's a big business initiative and that's how I approach it. And because of who we are, we needed to have a stakeholder support. All the way to the Board of Governors of citizens and we all you also have to realize and and I'm sure you all understand this, but you are changing the way people work and interact with data and systems. So usually it's very disruptive, right.
And that's where organizational change management can help you to to navigate the long journey. Because that's the other point, this is, this is a long journey. You're probably working on this piece this year, but next year you're gonna jump, going to jump on a different project and so on, and they all tie it into each other. So there are different techniques for organizational change management that can help you navigate the journey and get the support from the
stakeholders. You know, I I've always kind of felt that I am. It may be only second to an ERP initiative in terms of. How much it impacts and how much it touches the business, but in a way, in a way I I prioritize I M because it's usually the 1st place that people have an impact with the organization. So if you are a customer, it's obvious, right, there's that whole registration and getting
logged in and things like that. But even on the enterprise side, your first activity usually onboarding to the organization. Can you access? All these systems and even more so with everybody working remotely now. But it's just that level of touch, right? It's such an impact on everybody and it's that first impact that they feel. That is correct.
And then you have you you talk about on board and then you have to take those accounts down at some point in time or change you know their access as people move through their through their organization. So it's it is an ongoing process. From, you know, the first day, your first day to your last day, we got to manage these identities when you're managing change for the organization, right? No matter what it is, I would imagine that this is not a one and done type of situation,
right? It's something that's going to evolve and you're going to identify areas that you want to improve on just like anything else, right? Things that maybe got missed the first pass. OK, let's remember that for next time. How do you approach that type of situation where you know, getting it stood up and then getting it ready to go?
Sure. So what we did was we we brought in stakeholders from the entire organization, from all business units and and basically interview them what are your strong points, where are your pain points and based on that we built a holistic strategy that then we presented to them and. For feedback, you know part of the idea outside of the house, but you know there are different techniques for getting started.
I was blessed to have an internal organizational change management team and one of the as soon as they started and found that out, I went to them said OK, this is a multiyear, very impactful initiative. And you helped me and they brought in some techniques and presented to to me and what they they usually lead with. And the preferred technique here for us is is known as at CAR. That's a DKIKAR and it stands for the awareness, desire, knowledge, ability and
reinforcement. What does that mean? Well, first you have to be aware that a change is needed. That's your awareness, right? And that's where communication starts to drive that desire for that change. And and that's the most difficult part, right? You're changing someone's way of working and that that has an impact. Then you focus on that knowledge, you know, training, how is the change gonna gonna
impact me and what have you? Again, the training list to acquire and the abilities that you had that you need to have to support and sustain the change and then the reinforcement is ongoing. You probably have heard a lot that we seen a lot of technology projects everywhere that but we never capitalize on the promised land, right, because there is another priority or or whatever reason.
Sometimes we don't finish our projects and that's a reinforcement piece and also measurement of it of of the. Change, so it sounds like your organization takes change management very seriously. You talked a little bit about you had these internal stakeholders that you worked with. Talk to us a little bit more about that. Was that like a, I mean I'm not sure if it your organization that's kind of formally established or? You kind of reached into the
organization to find people. I would think that it's kind of more common that you're really gonna need to identify who are the people that can assist you in this area. But maybe talk a little bit about what your approach was in terms of identifying the people that could help you. This sounds I I would imagine as a new person in your organization where you need some kind of mentoring of houses done successfully in the past, but then also you have to have
people who have. Influence within the organization and the groups that you're trying to reach out to. Correct. So you touch on a few items that I did go by. One I look for look up to my sponsors, right? Who were the sponsors of the project, in this case, the two Vps in it. One is my boss who handles a strategy, architectural resiliency and security. The other one was the technology VP. And within those groups and the first thing was understand, OK, what is the business process
here? Let me follow the money if you would, right. That's what this is always go by what are the key processes in the organization. I partnered closely with our our enterprise architecture team who is a a sister organization and the resiliency team also a sister organization. We're all on the same leadership. On the resiliency side, that was key because they had conducted business impact analysis
already. So I just went there, look at it, OK. And then from there I went to the process owners of those critical processes. We just as a little bit of background because I didn't mention this earlier, Citizens is the insurance provider of last resort in the state of Florida. That means we provide. Coverage for those who cannot get it in a commercial from a commercial carrier, well, that means that a big part of our mission as a company and one of
our bodies is that of service. We have to be there for the policyholders when a storm hits. We actually have to be on Ground Zero 48 hours after that of the events, so. One of the key processes for us is boarding the independent adjusters that go assess the damage of the storms, right. And and that's one team I went to. We also have, we don't have a sales force internally pretty much we, we work a lot of with brokers and agents, right.
That's another key stakeholders, then we have policyholders and then our internal users. So though, through all of these business impact analysis and my partnership with Enterprise Architecture, identify those key stakeholders and then brought them in for the conversations. What happens if you're talking with the stakeholders and you get a real stick in the mud, someone who might be difficult, Have you encountered that And if so, you know is that something you know?
What are some of the the tips or tricks you might have for the folks who are listening? When, when that will happen, not if when. Right. So, well, first, understand that change is a long process, right? Studies have shown that organizational change really sticks after three years, leave or take. So there is a concept known as a change change curve, which visualize how this process goes, right. So you are a status quo for a while, right? Everything is going. It's going well, and then
there's change. Reintroduce the change. Right at that point in time, what happens is exactly what you described, yet is denial. Why are you doing this to me? In fact, why is I also usually people also take a self denial type of the. Why am I? Not taking on this and that type of deal. So then you that that sort of was start going down right on
the curve. Then there is a little bit of a valley at the bottom and that is when there's doubt and confusion and you know uncertainty and that's where I'm looking for what's in it. For me, that's a big piece of the change. Processes. We're all looking on what's in it for me, and that's me as a leader. That's what I need to communicate because what you want to do is on that valley, you want to get out of that valley as soon as possible. You don't want to stay there alone.
And one of the books of my favorite books is called Pixon Valley. Actually, there's a key question that they ask there in this situation, which is what's the truth in this situation? And so I help people understand that if as much as you can, I partner with at that point with my sponsors and other people that had more time in the organization to understand the other side because you know, I was dealing with people I didn't know for the most part.
So before each conversation I would prepare to with with longer tenure people in the team. To understand, OK, I'm going to have the conversation with this stakeholder, Tammy, who is what's what's going on with this person? What is he looking for? She's looking for. So then once you start coming out of the valley, you go start going up to rationalize to actually accept the change, and then you get to the reinforcement part of it. So in short, I think.
I wanted to explain that that process, but really you have to communicate what's in it for, for the person or for the business unit. Help them understand that and and part of what I do also is help them understand, uncover and manage risk so they can make better decisions. Usually that works well. You mentioned the, you know, establish you know, using established relationships.
And I'm and I'm curious your thought on this is you know I've been involved in organizations where I've you know been there for a while and okay, let's start an I M program And I've also worked with organizations where it didn't exist and I was brought in to create that I M program and didn't have the luxury of knowing anybody really, right. I'm this this new person coming into the Oregon you don't have to stand up and I an effective I M program without the benefit of
any relationships. I see good and bad in that because you're also not carrying baggage potentially from you know previous previous projects or previous you know expectations those sorts of things. What are is your thought around you know you would you think one is easier than the other. Are they about the same? You know, what would you do if you were kind of dropped into and you had a choice? Would you go into a new org or would you try to start it up, you know, with the current org?
Well the the way I would approach that is you you are working with someone internally. Right. I mean, you are a consultant coming in, in your case and you're working with someone in the team, in the internal organization. That will be me. My role, my responsibility is to present those people to you so you can have those conversations. And that's what we did, that we work with a with a third party. Consultant here. And that was my role.
I was the coach at quarterback. You know, let's bring claims, let's bring vendor management, let's bring legal and I will brief the team, the consulting team. We're bringing these folks. We will give them a little bit of background and then we really let the business guide the conversation. Tell me about your process.
What matters to you? Let because at the end of the day as I mentioned earlier, this is a business initiative, this is not a technology project and that's how we gain support from the board and everyone. And so you make them feel like we're listening to them, right. And you know all the techniques around listening and reinforcement. And then when you present the results back, make sure they get
feedback again. Go through another iteration and usually, you know, they felt they were part of it. This is not it or Security working on Asylum telling us what to do. They actually are considering my input, and there's there's a lot of value to that. That's right. So Jeff, I've got a new analogy the Carlos just gave me, which is that what makes a good IM program manager? Is he or she is a quarterback? Right. They just, they make everybody
else look like bizarre. But Carlos says you're kind of going through the peaks and valleys of change management. It couldn't help but draw the analogy to the seven steps of grief. Yeah, very, very common. Very. Nile, you know, and now this can't. Be happening to me, but you know what it was coming to mind as you're talking about that is, you know. You're helping people accept this change. Talk a little bit earlier about the the trainings that you're you're that you wind up doing
and things like that. And I think that you know what came to mind or what I was wondering was, you know, what are like the forms of communication? How are you getting this out there? Are you, you know, leveraging corporate e-mail newsletters? Are you sending? Letter from the desk of the CEO. What were some of the the techniques that you used to kind of communicate change to the organization? Yes, all of them. I mean, so we have different ways to communicate because people are busy.
So you know, we we gotta put the information out as much as we can. Obviously there are certain very formal channels to communicate with the board and the executive team. We use those forms for that Ioffer and it was accepted to the executive team to come talk to their leadership teams and and remember boards executive, these are 10 minutes conversation, right, 15 minutes, very shorter to the point and what's in it for me.
So when I went to talk to claims, I modify my message to talk about the claims process and that how this impacts that. When I went to talk to HRI talk about you know I GA and how the, you know HR system plays into provision and the provisioning potentially right, because I knew that was a change that will impact them and so on and so forth. That's at the business and high stakeholders level.
Then we also wrote internal articles that came from our CEO, who is my line of my line of leadership. She is our my boss's boss. So she put articles out there. My boss put articles, my other part of my team put articles. We also did. And then you, you continue to adjust based on the project you're working on, right? So MFA we, when we roll MFA out, we put a lot of a series that we
we call tech talks. It's an open mic conference call and with the technology people in there to answer questions really brief 10 minutes overview and then it's a Q&A. And those were a hit with the organization. We had somewhere between 5:00 and 10:00 with maybe 60 people average attending, that's that. We also have another venue which is our agile. All of our agile ceremonies, one of them for example is inspect and adapt.
Well, that's when we go and show people what we're doing and they give us feedback because it's all about feedback. That's what we try to to do. We collaborate a lot, we provide information, get feedback, make adjustments. So a lot of different ways to communicate, but it's about reinforcing the the message. Well, I'm glad that you gave me that transition, right? We have enough time to kind of
pick on another topic. And so in another one of your blog articles, you talked about Agile methodologies in IM deployments. My question bluntly is do you find that Agile works better than traditional waterfall approaches when it comes to IM? I think it's really. I don't know. I know this is not the the answer that we all like, but it depends on who you are. It depends on your organization. For us, we are still growing
into the agile transformation. We've been on the journey for about 3 to 4 years, which sounds like a long time, but for a transformation of that magnitude is actually early. So for us we approach it with an agile mentality, but sometimes we may apply waterfall techniques depending on the magnitude of the of the project. For example privilege access. We did a lot of waterfall there early on as we transition to the being deployed and and then I gel after that.
But for most, for the most part, we work in the sprints. 2 weeks of sprints where we try to release some sort of value for the organization, but you know, while you get the the infrastructure in place, it's more of a waterfall. But so it's kind of a scrum fall for us, in some cases a scrum.
Fall I like that, but it sounds like there really is a place for, you know, a hybrid approach where you're not strictly agile, you're not strictly waterfall, but you take the right approach for whatever project or maybe even team right that, that you're engaging with. Have you found any particular, you know, mix that works really well or is it truly, you know, figuring it out as you're kind of going through it with with
different personalities? You know, it could be a project personality or it could be, you know, a team personality. That sort of sort of approach. There's a misconception or misunderstanding about agile and that I found that with my team, just it's deploy fast. Well, it's not that really. It really has nothing to do or little to do with the speed. It has more to do really with delivering value.
So with that said, our approach is in our security team and and many of the IT organizations here, it's about releasing and getting feedback, right. Was this what you were looking for? Is this what you're looking for? So it's a constant engagement with the stakeholders, with the product owners to make sure that we're delivering the value they are looking for and because because the other thing is there's a lot of competing priorities in any organization
as you know. And so you gotta make sure that you are delivering value. If not, you know they're either going to not care much about what you're doing or shut down the project. So feedback is the key for that. We we do we lean more towards agile to two weeks of Sprint in our case. How do you defend the quality when it comes to moving with speed?
Because they think that's typically one of the areas that a lot of organizations and, you know, project team struggle with is when you get into these heads down sprints and you're kind of
running full speed. How do you make sure you don't you know run through a wall instead of maybe you know making sure that you ran through the door that was already there and you're not causing more havoc than than you're creating you know solutions to We from a script point of view what we do is we we try to provide the requirements as early on the Canban portfolio, Canban as possible.
There are different stages. So once what project is about to take off, we have a pretty solid SDLC checklist and that's where we inject our our IT security assessment tools that lists. So it does a a lean risk analysis with what we know at that time, right. And it gives you an inherent risk that drives your controls and we look at OK, well based on what you're telling me we need these controls and that give you
a a residual risk. So that was very well accepted was another change that was like why are you doing this to me? Why do I have to now go through these things. But once people saw the value that we basically are not even in the conversations sometimes because now what we're doing is the enterprise architecture team is running with that tool and in the future we envision we're kicking off our security champions program here very soon. We we we did last year but the world changed last year.
So we had to talk about, yeah, we have to people then focus on other things. So we're about to resume that and hopefully our security champions can take ownership of that. And the advantage is that they are part of the business units and you know we'll be more of security coaches and they love that we basically provide the guidance, vision, requirements and get out of the way. That's actually what the followup question I was thinking of is, you know, does this kind of.
Change the role of the Seeso in project delivery, especially when it comes to security projects. I hear you're saying yes. I don't know if you're saying that because that's kind of the Changing minds mindset that you have in terms of what that role ought to be or if it has anything to do with the agile versus the waterfall. What do what do you think of that?
I think the main role of the SEESO in any organization is to build and manage relationships and then provide a vision, provide guidance on risk management and so. So our mission statement, I'm going to paraphrase it because we just redid it, but it's basically we're here to provide data and educate the business on risk so. So they make decisions where security doesn't matter on risk. We manage it for the organization. We tell them here's the risk here alternative to handling.
And then usually from an IT point of view, especially in other business units, they come to us say, OK, how can we remediate this? Is it possible to remediate and sometimes it isn't. That's one thing. The other thing that I tried to do is promote experimentation because that's part of a, yeah, that's part of who we are. And you know, I had a conversation this morning, hey, where why are we changing this, the initial guidance that we
provided to the team. This was a conversation amongst the product owners for I am or project owners. I'm like, well, we're not saying we're changing direction. Let me ask you this, should we listen to what they have to say to see if there is any value and we should pursue that route? And the answer was yes, we should listen to them like, well, let's do that, run a small experiment if it makes sense, we keep going. If not, we just say no And some people would say, well, you're wasting time.
But really what we're doing is we're learning. So that's the role of the system to me is to manage relationship and courage, innovation and and and experimentation. Obviously managed help the team manage risk. Reminds me a lot of a piece of relationship advice that I once heard, and I wish I knew who it was so I could probably give them credit. But. You know, it's it's, it's not me versus you, it's us against the
problem, right. And if you can bring in, you know, other parts of the organization and and have them have a seat at the table and say okay, well, here's here's what we're trying to solve for, right? Here's what we think. What do you think? Usually, you know, multiple heads are better than one when it comes to that sort of situation and and empowering the organization to make those decisions and those changes and to own things I think is a very important part of that too.
So I I totally agree with that. What are some of the, you know, we're starting to come towards the the end of our time here, but I wanted to understand, you know, from your perspective, what are some of the things that that you use to stay sharp,
right? I mean, we've been in the space for a while and sometimes there are multiple outlets of information, especially, you know, in the age that we live in with, you know, the Internet, it's no longer the, you know, the security magazine that gets delivered to the office so much, you know, every week, it seems. What are some of the things that that you use to try to not only stay sharp, but to really kind of understand the perspectives of some of the stakeholders
maybe that you're talking with? Yeah. Well, listening to podcasts like this is one, this one in particular for anything. Identity, I stay up, stay up with, keep up with. Then you know I have a number of podcasts that I listen to from not only on security but leadership. I recently started listening to couple on entrepreneurship because that is that helps me a lot to you know jump into these endeavors.
But you know, books I, I really enjoyed the books from Marion Hofner on identity attack vectors, privilege attack vectors, Those are really great books on this area. Books on leadership also besides conference, I am a big fan of those. It's very relaxed practitioners. I favor those now more than the big, big, big ones where you don't really get to talk to peers. And that's the last one. It's it's peers, people like you that I can have a conversation with about anything.
Because at the end of the day we someone has seen the issues that I have seen and the last thing I do and the hell has helped me develop a lot is I actually stay up with what my boss and his boss are reading. And I've been doing this even before I go to citizens for a while when I went into meetings in their offices. You know, president, CEO, CEO, CIO, any chief, oh, look at their shelves and just speak on it and see what they have been reading.
And I went and got that book and because that helps me understand where they're coming from, what they're thinking about, it's been very helpful to me. I think that's a really great tip for folks that are out there is to be able to understand the perspective that you know, the folks who are in positions you know above from a leadership perspective is to understand what is their point of view because I think it's an opportunity to. You know, reinforce what they're
hearing or counter what they might be hearing from an information standpoint, especially, you know, if there's something that maybe is counter to what you're trying to get done. So, you know, I, I picture this
back in the old days, right? Is is, you know, sneaking to an office and like peering through books and magazines on the desk and things like that to try and get, you know, intelligence on on what people are looking at so you can kind of better understand the psychology of of why they, why they are the way they are. Right.
Well, that's very cool. We're going to have links to the different articles that you've published out there on our show notes before we get things wrapped up for this show. Any final words of wisdom Carlos, that you can kind of throw up there into I am land for the people who are
listening? Well, from an extra point of view, when you if you are building the strategy or reshaping it or what have you, remember it's a business initiative, it's a business problem and in order to solve it you need the business stakeholders to help you. Let them guide that strategy and you will get support. I've been since I've been here because I took that approach. I have yet to find push back from the business. Like that. How about Jim yourself?
Anything you want to close out with before we let these fine folks go? I'm just so appreciative of Carlos being on the show and sharing his wisdom and his experience. It kind of reinforces to me that we do have a listener base out there and that the folks who are listening are like us, right? Constantly thinking about how to. You know, make the business more secure, how to make the user experience better.
And you know, per the topic we discussed today, how to make it so that you know the change that we're inflicting on the organization is accepted as well as possible right there. These are hard things. Change is hard. Change is hard to implement, Change is hard to be on the receiving end of. But it's just, you know, having Carlos on today reminds me that, you know, our listener based out
there is so strong. And really love interacting with all of you who listen on a regular basis and please reach out and connect to Jeff and I on LinkedIn. And I'm sure Carlos is open to us as well as very prolific in terms of publishing articles and and sharing information on his feed. So please feel completely welcome to reach out and connect to all three of.
Yeah, that's a good point. You know, I do, I do think the the I M field is very welcoming, is is not a very competitive field, at least I feel in if you're in the trenches, right. We're all trying to solve similar problems, maybe not exactly the same, but there are, you know, communities of people out there that are struggling with the same problems that you might be facing on a daily basis.
And you know, if it's been solved elsewhere, there is no shame in taking what's been learned and applying that to the problems that that you've already seen.
You may have to tweak it, massage it, whatever it may be but I think that's a great thing and and one of the things I like most about the I AM, you know industry itself is, is everyone is very welcoming and yeah totally echo what Jim said about connecting with with any of us. I we're always happy to have a conversation and and this podcast is proof, right. So you know let's let's you know keep the conversation going. You know, if there is, you know things that you want to talk
about, reach out. Let's get it on the table and and have that discussion so. Totally appreciate, Carlos. Thank you so much. Not only for listening, but for being part of the show as well and bringing your, your experience, your knowledge to the table for for folks to drive benefit from. With that, we're going to go ahead and call it for this week. You can hit us on the web at
identity@thecenter.com. We're on Twitter at IDAC Podcast. There's going to be show notes that have the links to both of Carlos's writings. And links also should connect to any any three of us from LinkedIn as well. So with that, we'll go ahead and close it out for this week. And thanks everyone for listening and we'll talk with you all in the next one. Thanks for listening to the Identity at the Center podcast.
If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe and visit us on the web at identity@thecenter.com.