#312 - Authenticate 2024 - Kim Cameron Award Winner Grace Klutke

The connection to human rights is so apparent, and I did not expect that at all. I largely saw technology as something being really removed from the ethical side of human rights. And it is so deeply connected and conversations that I've had about making technology accessible where air populations that might not have multiple forms of identification might not have access to pass key technology. How can you include them in this new wave and not completely exclude them moving forward?

Because I do think this is such a positive way to the future, but you have to account for that as well. And so that has been just really, really inspiring to see and to hear and I hope to have more of that moving forward. The non serious conference revelation has been, I'm trying to wrap my head around tech casual, tech formal because it's very different than long and everyone here is dressed differently. So I'm trying to figure out what

is the dress code. I really like it because it is so open and casual and but wrapping my head around that coming from a suit's background has been a a new step for me. So you want to you want to attract Jim. When it comes to the fashion service, possibly the best well dressed man and all of identity, you go with Jim. He can set the tone for you. This is identity at the center if it has anything to do with IAM.

This is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff Stedman. Welcome to the Identity at the Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you? Not so bad yourself. Terrible. Terrible. I'm not happy at all. Okay, obviously kidding. I'm in San Diego or more. Specifically Carlsbad. Well, I mean, you find ways to complain about a lot of things, so. Yeah, that's a good point. But I'm very happy.

I mean, the weather is perfect. We're at the Authenticate Office 2024 and in podcasting. I mean, this is the life, right? Yeah, I mean, can't, can't get any better than this. Who's got it better than us? Nobody, right? That's nobody Phrase. Yeah. Authenticate 2024. Special thanks to the Fido group

for getting us out here. And I think we've already talked about it, and some of these episodes might be out of order as I get around to editing them, but we did a Fido feud thing on the stage yesterday, which was probably the most fun I think I've had at a conference to date. And I'm looking very much forward to turning that into an episode in the future. I also want to thank RSM, who is our employer in our day jobs. They're picking up all of our

expenses. So not only are we here in this wonderful place, but we don't have to pay for it out of our own pockets. Yeah. So thanks, Daniel. Thanks, Ghazi. If you want to help us out, check out rsmus.com and hire us for digital identity consulting needs. OK, So what else we got, we got authenticate this week.

Yep. You and I actually going to be at sale point Navigate next week. So by the time people listen to this one, which I hope to get out on Monday, we will already be at sale point Navigate in Orlando. So we're Criss crossing the US and then we're going to be at Gartner. I am later this year in Grapevine and we have a discount code for people. So if you use the code IDAC 375, you get $375. Clever how that works, right? And you get that off your registration.

So I'll have a link in our show notes for people to check that out. It'll take advantage of it and yeah, we'll be a Gartner. We're doing something I don't. Know what stage we're going to be doing a use case. A use case of what? Use? A use case of use OK. Well, we'll figure it out. It'll be very Casey. OK, All right, let's see, what else? Anything else? Or should we get to our guests? Get to it? Yeah, They're staring at us across the table, politely

chuckling. We've got a couple people.

But first of all, we've got Grace Kluky. She's the Kim Cameron Award winner this year from the Digital Identity Advancement Foundation. And then we've got Aaron Crowe and Ian Glaser, both from the Digital Identity Advancement Foundation. So Grace, welcome. It's your first time on the show. Thank you. Thank you. I'm so happy. To be here. So this is, I hate to say it, but this is probably the pinnacle of your career being on this podcast. So it's probably all downhill

from here. As Ian and Aaron could probably attest, They've been on the show before, and I don't think they've reached such heights as when they've been on this episode or on this podcast before. So welcome. You're really overdoing it today. What are you talking about? We're here. This is great, Ian. Welcome back to the show. Thanks again for having us. It's, it's really a pleasure. It's always fun. And I have to thank the IDOC folks for supporting Daya.

You guys have been there since last year when we first announced the organization, and I've always been so supportive. So I I deeply thank not only you, but the listening audience. Well, I mean, you guys put together such a good organization and Aaron welcome you to the show as well. So feel free to grab the mic. This is our budget. We have 1 mic for two people. Yeah.

Thanks for having us back. I've been excited about this conversation all week and getting to talk a little bit about what we've been up to at DAF and also hearing from Grace and a bit about her background, which is really, really interesting. So let's get to Grace in your

story, because you've won the Kim Cameron Award. Or your award. I'm not sure how that works right, what the right terminology is, but take us through your journey. How did you, how did you one, become aware of it and then two, what was the process to go to apply for it? And then you found out you were awarded this thing. And then just take us through that. Yes, definitely. So I don't have a technical background, so I didn't find my way here through a straightforward Rd., I think.

But I was in law school and I take privacy law, cybersecurity, Internet law, and kept going through the same catch phrases. And I really wanted to find something to anchor my understanding of the tech world and privacy and found Kim Cameron and his laws through that. And that was really, really instrumental for me understanding what frameworks there are and how the Internet should be governed, how it works right now.

And then speaking with my professors, looking at different organizations that follow through. That's how I found the award. And it just kind of fit that it was titled the Kim Cameron Award as that being kind of my guiding pillars as I'm learning privacy and Internet law. And I think it's just very informative for law in general to know those codes and pillars and how they speak to our interactions online. Yeah, I think Kim was such a big

thinker in this space. I mean, the first time I became aware of him was my very first identity conference back in O 6. So it was the not sure which conference it was. Either way, he was kind of announcing these laws of identity and they're still as relevant today as they were back then. So Ian, Aaron, you guys are from the Digital Identity Advances Foundation.

We aren't. For you guys, there's Identity Advancement Foundation. Everybody, I'm glad everybody was excited as I am. So tell us a little bit about the organization, but then I also want to hear some about, like, why Kim Cameron, the world?

Yeah. And so I could start us off. So the Digital Identity Advancement Foundation or DAF, much easier for us all to say, is a nonprofit organization dedicated to furthering the cause of digital identity and the development of digital identity practitioners. There are a couple of ways we do this.

We have some award programs that Ian will talk about more in a few moments, but really like that's kind of the the foundation of our mission is being able to develop this community, give a little bit back to it and bring in some new folks and help them establish their ties here as well.

So the the Kim Award comes originally from the Open ID Foundation. So when Kim passed away, he spent a lot of his time in the OIDF furthering a variety of standards and technologies, but also was a mentor to a lot of those people and peer, including myself. So the OIDF originally created the award and as it had grown over time and as OIDF grew over time, they were looking for a place for that award to live on with more dedicated focus, let's

say. And so the old executive director came to myself and Alan Foster, the third head of the three headed monster that is DIAF and talked about how can we find a place to really let this award and others grow out of that came die off. And so we had funding to continue Kim's award. We actually expanded on that. So this year we have 5 winners, Grace being the the last of the five for this year. And we went through the

basically the award process. We solicited for people's sort of applications to this, and then we had some folks, some from the OIDF and ourselves, involved in sort of looking through them and saying like, who would be a good fit? Kim was a troublemaker. Like Kim liked a good argument. Kim liked to be controversial in a useful way.

And I think one of the ways that he was really keen on that was to help younger people in their career or newer people in their career, get involved and help them to be controversial, help them to bring something a little bit different to this story. So we're super thrilled to be able to continue that legacy and

then to build upon them. And that challenge of thinking right is something I think it's very healthy for the industry at large because if we just take, OK, this is how we've always done it, how are we ever going to grow and move forward in the industry? I want to ask you, I know we're

going to get to talk about Kim Cameron, but you also do the Vittorio Vitocchi award too. Can you guys talk about what that means and I guess who the recipients of that might be and how does that process look like? Yeah. So the Vittorio Portaccio award is a little bit different. So whereas the Kim Cameron award focuses on people that are new to the industry, even sometimes students, new grads, people like that, the VBA focuses on people that are more tenured in their

careers. They're focusing on digital identity standards and academic work. So they get to basically create a plan of study for what events they want to go to, to contribute to their very critical work on various standards. For example, we have one awardee that is going to work on Skim next year. So we are funding her to go to

two different IETF events. We have another awardee who is an academic that'll be presenting his own research at the International Conference on Conceptual Modeling, which is very, very cool. So they it just has a very, very different focus on kind of the different ends of the spectrum of somebody's career. And I think the the important part, especially with the award honoring Victoria's legacy is

his passion for standards. Like we were very determined to make sure we continue that legacy. And so being able to sponsor both academics and practitioners to get involved in standards or to continue to be involved because one of the things wearing a slightly different hat, wearing My ID Pro hat, we know that there's a great deal of interest in applying standards. However, there's also less of an interest to participate in the

process. And that's a strategic vulnerability for the industry, right? We've got to facilitate more people getting involved and dive is just one of the ways to do that. So I remember the name of the conference of Digital ID World. I wanted to throw that in. The IDW man that was that was kind of the 1st right. That was Eric Norland, Phil Becker. It was the first identity conference and it was I was there when Kim did the, the,

the, the laws. I remember just sitting there like, I don't know what the word reify mean. It's like I was like, he's using really big words. I have no idea what's going on. I mean, overtime got to learn about, but yeah, man, that was it. Was it? Was super cool like that's when I realized this digital identity spaces for me because it wasn't just ones and zeros. It was like philosophy.

I thought it was super cool. Anyway, one thing I wanted to come to close this part of the conversation for listeners. If they want to get involved with the IAF or play a role in supporting the organization, how do you recommend they do that? So we are, our programs are 100% sponsored by well our supporters, individuals and organizations like the OIDF. So one way to contribute is literally to contribute dieath dot link slash donate One of the easiest ways to do it.

One of the things that we're really excited about for next year is to build more outreach programs to universities to start addressing a pipeline problem of where do we build new practitioners? Where can we find where can we instill some interest in it? Like Grace had the sort of the sense like, wait a minute, this privacy thing, there's like some ties to this other thing. It seems to be called identity.

What's the heck's out about? And Kim, this Kim guy is talking about something, but we need more people like that, right? So we are looking to build relationships with the universities to find ways that we can maybe build identity education programs, but also to find new opportunities and ways for we that we can help. Like we don't have all the

answers in this. So if you're listening, you know, if you're working in higher education research and you're like, oh, you know, you should talk to XYZ professor, reach out. There's a contact form on the website. We'd love to talk to you because we want to figure out ways to start building a larger, more diverse population of practitioners, and we want to start, frankly, as young as we can get. And we'll have a link in our show notes too, for people to

find that make it easy to find. DIDIAF dot link for sure. Great. So let's get back to you because we've been talking awful lot about Kim Cameron and his laws of identity. Was there a specific law that kind of drew you into the space? Like, OK, I want to join these these wild people on the identity side. How does how did that come around or maybe influence maybe your perspective on the way that identity and was was manifesting within your life? Right.

They're all very interconnected. So whether it's just Bible parties or consent control, they all relate so closely. I think the genius is is that it's not technical specific in all aspects. It's philosophical, it's legal, it really goes through a bunch of different domains and explains how we should be governing those interactions.

So I think just the genius of the words really scoops to people from all sides of the privacy into all sides of the digital identity world and can govern how we stretch our interactions online. I think it was very clear to me, which really spoke to me as someone who doesn't have a background here and can't understand some of the acronyms that I've been learning this week and needs to go back and go through that. But it was really easy to

understand and get behind. And I think that was what really do, man. And I think that's one of the one of the things that people really need to realize is you don't need to be a technical person to be in digital identity. There's so much more to this space. It's not just coding, it's not just configuration, it's project management, program management, communications, it's social engineering within your, within your organization to drive support, right?

Things like that. We call that politicking. IPS There is a little bit of a mayoral aspect to it, right? Shaking hands, kissing babies, right, That sort of thing. But there is so much more room within the identity space. I'm glad that hopefully that message is getting out because I think it's a perfect example of like, yeah, not everybody is a coder. I'm not a coder, but I know

identity. I've been in the space long enough where it's like, I feel like I can contribute in other ways that isn't, you know, I would say turning a screw, but it'll be more like, you know, typing in a code or anything like that. So I'm very excited that that's starting to hopefully get out more for people.

Yes, it agrees. You know, I think look at the loss of identity if you, I'm trying to say, OK, this is an idealistic set of laws that would be great if they were actually like the world was following them. You know, for example, that people should control what data they pass and that only a minimal amount of data gets passed. And if everyone followed that, the world would be a better place, I think.

But I'm wondering, did is it, is your perspective kind of cynical now that you said, all right, these ideas have been out here for almost 20 years. They're not followed in in many cases. You look and there's some really bad examples. How did you kind of like take that and put a filter on it? Or did it make you become cynical? Right, exactly.

You read the laws and you see this utopia of how a perfect society can be, and then you realize they were written 20 years ago and it's it hasn't panned out. But I think I was very cynical from the legal side just because you hear about so many data breaches and it seems like this

is an ongoing issue. But in reality, I think the laws changed that because you see that there is a framework that can be added, maybe not perfectly, but having an identity layer on the Internet is something that can really help structure the interactions. And I hope to see more engagement from the legal side and fly into that as well, because I think that could limit the way it's followed right now.

That's a limitation that we have, that there's not enough fly in. And once people can see that and just have that as their base activities, that would really change the way that the Internet is run right now. Yeah. So you've got a legal

background, and I'm curious, how do you leverage that legal background and help move the idea of digital identity forward? Is there some intersection there where it's like, OK, identity, human rights laws, you know, does that become Kim Cameron's laws, become part of the Constitution, right, things like that. Or maybe it's an identity constitution or something like that. We were.

So I'm going to go out of order here because we just recorded an episode with Dean Sacks talking about death and the digital estate. People aren't going to hear that for a couple of weeks still, But I'm curious to get your perspective on this from the legal side of things. OK, What are things that we should be thinking about from that perspective? And how do you see that background helping you push things forward?

I was very fortunate I spoke with him about this and I think it's just a genius idea that hasn't been fully brought to fruition, but needs to be this idea that tech isn't everything that we do and that identity is a layer that is on law as well and should be. So I think leveraging my background in law has been really realizing all the interconnections that are there, how you know, pass keys are a wonderful, wonderful device that need to be really accessible to

all kinds of populations and how you can work through the equity of that. And so I think they work completely hand in hand. I think Kim Tamron's idea of a

layer of identity is already on law. It's just not accepted, maybe to the point that it should be. But they really go together completely with human rights and leveraging technology. And also on the flip side, making sure technology abides with human rights and is accessible. They all go hand in hand. Get. Out you said topic surrounding identity being taught in law school. I mean, is this something that is being included in that human rights conversation or how's it being approached?

Or are we just not there yet? It's really I was very fortunate that I had a professor who has tuned in to his fear and has tuned into privacy and Internet. I think overall it's not as connected as we should be, especially in human rights, and I think that's why adding the educational aspect is so important to all aspects. Graduate studies, undergraduate, there's a real need and there's a lot of benefits that will come with that as it slowly grows and advances.

So it's a really great plan to have as both of those worlds move forward. Yeah, I think what what Jeff is referring to and how themes talk about death in the digital estate. You know, we talked about what's the solution as part of regulation and he said he thinks so, right. And so I was kind of applying that to just over all, all the elements of Kim's laws of identity and thinking about GDPR, right.

That pushed privacy a lot further than a lot of countries were ready to. But now you see countries like the United States coming around to say, all right, well, we need to take this seriously. There's a model that's been around for a number of years. Do you see something like that potentially being the path forward for these laws?

Definitely. I think with death in the digital estate, you have this idea of justifiable parties and who should have access to that when you pass on and how can we make that a legally secure and also feasible route. I think that is clear connections. And so going back to the more broad standards approach, which would be the laws of identity and instead of more specific that can have really great effects on identity and making guidelines going forward. Is there a specific challenge

that that jumps out at you as far as OK, you're you're getting in this space? Like why haven't we addressed this yet? Like is there something that has jumped out yet to you? I think so. I think there's a lot of imposter syndrome going between the world's because I don't have any technical background. I being here, I realized that that's not a barrier of entry in any way. But I think there still is this idea that if you're not a tech person, you don't fit into this

world, and vice versa with law. But just seeing that as a boundary that doesn't really exist and working through that is, I think, the biggest thing towards moving those worlds closer. I have a bias here that I think some people would just go to medical school or law school to make a lot of money. But I get the sense that you're

in it for much more. And I'm kind of wondering, I'm sure you thought about your future and how you going to take what you're learning here and kind of these learnings that you've had with law school and now tying it to technology and wondering how do you see using that in the future? It's a great question. I think when I look at my future and how those worlds combine, I think in any job you always have

to have an eye on both of them. And right now, looking at issues of humanitarian law and human rights law in general, I think that necessarily has to combine the two. So keeping those in mind, it's a little bit of an uphill battle, I think, in some contexts, posing the rationale of why they need to be connected. But you're right, I think a lot of people go to law school just because it's the path forward. And it seems like it's more definite in terms of what your

future will look like. But being open to having those different worlds intersect and being open to a career that does have identity would be, I think, very empowering to any new lawyer. I think the real key is to have the right mentors along the way, you know, so finding some kind

of position, whether it's at a firm or whether it's in big tech or something like that, but trying to identify who's going to mentor you to help you get to that next level. Exactly. I've heard over and over again that people fall into this world by accident sometimes. And I think maybe it's less than an accident. You just have a mentor that really wishes you one critical step forward. And for me, that was professors

in law school. But they can come from all sides, just having the mentorship to go further into the digital identity space. I think you've picked a great spot to be in because I can't imagine digital identity, privacy being any less important to go further along here. And now we start to think about things like AI and what that's going to do for things. You know, I think you're, I

think you've got a great background to really be getting into the space now, because there are so many concerns that people have around how are we going to govern and interpret how data that's being collected about us? And we're all, we're all consumers of identity in addition to be in it. Is it appropriate for XYZ company to be leveraging this set of data to do this other thing, right? Or hey, let's let's create Grace, the AI chat bot that is an expert in law and digital

identity. Are you OK with that? Right. I mean, how And then what happens with that kind of stuff? So I think I love your background because I think there's going to be a big need and a growing need for that. Definitely. And laws and it's AI fails as well widely publicized. And so I think trying to navigate that world with an eye of how it can be impactful and how can we best use not misuse

is important. Yeah, I think identity data and how it gets used with an AI, what are the borders between ownership of data between Kelso will do. That's going to be a big, you know, thing to solve in the future. But Speaking of mentors, you got 2 mentors next to you of the day and Ian and Aaron, I was wondering what advice might you each individually give to Grace in terms of, you know, how to be, how to make an impact on the world of identity? I would just say like first of

all to take it step by step. I know that you said that you've seen a ton and already are inspired by a lot of the conference and it can be really easy to get, I think overwhelmed by how much new information there is. So the first best thing that you can do is you already have this great background. You're very well spoken, you're

clearly very smart. I think the best thing that you can do is give yourself time to develop as a professional, develop your identity, expertise and anything that you contribute back to the industry in this really important sector is going to be, I think, impactful. I think taking a mentor, as we talked about earlier during WID will be super useful. Taking additional mentors, I mean, and yeah, just taking more time to in addition to us, we're here of course as well.

But yeah, I think being confident in that focused voice that you'll develop over time is going to be one of the key things to how you'll. Contribute I mean, I think from my perspective, something I learned from privacy practitioners was to ask a question of what else could this

information be used for? And that kind of curiosity, I think was is really important because not only is that in some regards the genesis of our privacy impact assessment, but it's also as an identity practitioner, a how do we think about protecting this? How do we think about whether we need it in our identity systems or not? Like, so the question of what else is this or could it be used for is incredibly useful as a professional, right?

And that curiosity of how is this is my lane, yeah, but how is it impacted by this thing over here? And how could it be used or benefited or could there be a detriment? I think that's a really powerful thing. And just like keeping that kind of curiosity and openness and sort of a habit to be like, what else is this used for? Where else?

Why? And like that I think is a really powerful thing because once you have that sense, then how you apply it, how we use it, how we protect it, that becomes a really different conversation and a really powerful 1 so. You have to forgive me, I get all choked up sometimes just talking about identity. Grace, what's next?

Like what are what are you most looking forward to as you get into this space? Like what is what's on your horizon right now? I think next for me is going through my notes and looking at all the things I learned, all the acronyms and figuring out what the terminology is and going back to the to the white board and mapping that out.

I've learned so much this week and I think I've really have so many their passport into what a career in digital identity can look like and what it can be. And so going back, I've tried to be a sponge this week and now going back and figuring all of that out will be important. And I think encouraging other people as well from the legal side to because I'm involved in this world is something that I really want to do as well and is on my To Do List going on from this conference.

Yeah. It's funny you mentioned the acronym thing, because I feel like that's the one thing that this industry is really good at, is coming up with a wide variety of acronyms. So Grace, you saw all these people on stage presenting. Ian, of course is always presenting. What do you think about that? Is that something you want to do? Get on stage in front of all these people and give a talk. We were speaking about this earlier.

It seems very daunting here, everyone is so well spoken, but you do have this big stage with the lights and so I've definitely been very inspired watching both of you speak and it's not something that naturally I really go towards, but I think it's very inspiring to see in. Some ways I think it's easier to get up on the stage in front of all these people with the light shining in your face.

You can't see the people out in the audience, so you could be presenting to an empty room and you wouldn't know the difference. So here's here's the pro tip, start a podcast broadcast to thousands of people and then you'll lose that stage, right? And then go up there and then realize, oh, none of that transferred and you have to figure it all out to go when you get up on stage. So just a little pro tip. Let's see. So Grace, I'm curious if anything has jumped out at you

this week. So you've been here now for two days roughly. What's like the what's the vibe like? What were you expecting coming in? Anything surprising, both positive or negative? Like, let's get into that, OK? Well, I have a serious and a non serious 1A serious one being the connection to human rights is so apparent and I did not expect that at all. I largely saw technology as something being really removed from the ethical side of human

rights. And it is so deeply connected and conversations that I've had about making technology accessible where air populations that might not have multiple forms of identification might not have access to pass key technology. How can you include them in this new wave and not completely exclude them moving forward? Because I do think this is such a positive way to the future, but you have to account for that as well. And so that has been just really, really inspiring to see

and to hear. And I hope to have more of that moving forward. The non serious conference revelation has been I'm trying to wrap my head around tech casual, tech formal, because it's very different than long and everyone here is dressed differently. So I'm trying to figure out what is the dress code.

I really like it because it is so open and casual and but wrapping my head around that coming from a suit's background has been a a new step for me. So you want to you want to attract Jim. When it comes to the fashion servant, possibly the best well dressed man and all of identity, you go with Jim. He can set the tone for you. Thank you and do my best. I have to bring something to this craziness. That's when I tried to do it. Actually, this is very muted. It is for me.

Yeah, I was expecting like a flashy jacket or. Something yeah, sometimes they do like a like a tuxedo jacket or something. But here's what happened was I've been on the road for over a month without going home due to the hurricane. And so I have what I had in my back last meeting I was, I was like a stuffy business meeting. So I could have gone out and spent some money at Macy's though. Your your commitment to the bit is starting to wane a little bit, yeah.

Well, there's always Gartner in December. So Speaking of dressing at conferences, I think we should probably do like a quick rating on most formal to least formal. And I feel like Gartner tends to be a little more formal. New. For better or for worse, I'm going to say ideniverse is somewhere in the middle. And I think this one is a little bit more casual. Ian, you're shaking your head and seeming to like, where do you feel like that from a rank perspective?

And I'm Erin, I want to get your thoughts on it as well. Yeah, EIC 2 is I think missing from that list and I would probably put that at one of the more slightly formal ones. Do you what about identity adjacent conferences? Because DEFCON is probably the most OIW. I never had IOW. I've never been to IW either, but. I know, I know, it's on my list, but yeah, that's how I would put them in the rankings. And you think that's an unconference?

You can wear whatever you want. Yeah, sounds like my kind of jam. I mean, I'm super comfortable with that. I don't want to put a jacket in a tie. Did you get around the Expo hall? Did you get to talk to a lot of the vendors? And did you get any of the freebies, the swag? A little bit. I'm still working up to it. I have some new T-shirts that I will be working through, but I have to make a couple more laps I think, as the days go on and. And get some more swags.

This is how I judge conferences is the the quality of the swag and then how good their cookies or Donuts. So last year there were Donuts here at night. It was after, I think it was after the food trucks, which were last night. I didn't see any Donuts last night. But I'm hopeful that there will be a recovery tonight. If you're, if you're listening, Andrew or Megan or Adrian. And I'm expecting Donuts or

cookies later tonight. So I can neither confirm nor deny that at Gartner events, Gartner analysts may or may not make a Magic quadrant of swag up from the vendor hallway. That might be true, that might not be true. But if it was true, it was pretty awesome to see it done out again if I observe such a thing.

I think we just found our next, our next stage presentation where, you know, we don't learn anything about it any but we we analyze the conference that we're at and we do some sort of analysis on, OK, let's see, let's do a conference report card swag, thumbs up, thumbs down and get like some judges out there, the food, the ambiance like. That I think if you don't leave with a pair of socks, you really weren't there. I'm not a sock guy. I know a lot of people are. Are you guys sock?

I know you are. I know. I'm sorry. Definitely. Those are funny ones. I'm just not a sock guy. Are you a sock person, Grace? I would love some. I didn't see any going around so. I'll have to. Keep my radar up, yeah. But that's, but that's not on the conference, that's on the vendors, right? They need to up their game. Yes. That's true. You a sock person? I'm not a big sock lady, except I have my little past key socks, so we need to see if we can get

you a pair of those. That's the point.

OK, well, I think that's probably a good spot. We can wrap it up for this week. Congratulations. Thank you. Welcome to the identity family. The water's just fine. Wait on end. It's a very, the one thing I really appreciate about this community is it's very welcoming, It's open. A lot of it is not secret sauce competitive stuff. It's like we're all trying to do the right thing and protect our users. And so I find that compared to other industries, there's less of that competitive.

Now, of course, vendors are vendors, but for the most part, people seem to get along. It's been a lot of fun. So I hope you'll come back and share with us and see you at another conference. And I'm going to ask you some questions again in the future. Back. All right, So we talked to you this day. What's changed, right? Have you grown more cynical? Do we like, need to like do more or, you know, have you have you, you know, maybe turned over a positive leaf on things?

So I'm looking forward to that in the future. I'm. Looking forward to that as well. Really looking forward to seeing the impact you make on the industry. Hopefully we can have you back 5-10 years down the road. We can be the first person to say you chose identity as a career rather than they choosing you. And yeah, thanks for doing the show today. Thank you. And thank you, Ian and Aaron for being on the show. We'll have links in our show notes for people to check out.

So we'll have LinkedIn profiles for all of you guys. Digital Identity Advancement Foundation DIAF dot link and you can connect with us on the web, idacpodcast.com. We're on Mastodon and Twitter and all that stuff. YouTube. YouTube. I knew you were going to hit it. idacpodcast.tv. We'll take it right to our YouTube channel. We are still actively trying to do more of the YouTube stuff.

And yeah, like and subscribe, do all those fun stuff and that'll help us get great guests like the folks we had here today. And the 10 covers is like this. So with that look, I'd leave it for this week. Thanks everyone for watching and or listening and we'll talk with you all in the next one. You've been listening to Identity at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and

review, and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit the website at identity@thecenter.com. See you next time on Identity at the Center.