This is identity at the center. If it has anything to do with IAM, this is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff Stedman. Welcome to the Identity at the Center podcast. I'm Jeff and that's Jim. Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff. How are you? Not so bad yourself. I'm doing great. You know, it's good. Again, we're at the Authenticate conference and it's a really
cool conference. I mean you know it's not one of the really big conferences we go to like Gardner Eidner Verse or some of the vendor specific conferences. However, like you'll see signage that say MFA is so 80s. And I'm like, I feel like I'm still going around to my clients saying make sure you have MFAI mean, I know it's old, but it's kind of like I'm in between, right? Because you better have MFA. But at the same time, it's this passerless phenomenon. It's kind of like making it
passe. Well, passkeys are having its moment in the sun right now, but at the end of the day you still need to have some factor additional to. Just a password, right? So MFAI think is still valid. Lots of companies out there have spent the last couple years investing in even just getting MFA off the ground, especially with, you know, the pandemic and people working from home and needing to do better authentication on that, which is great. MFA still has a place in the
world. It's better than not having MFA. But clearly the future is shifting towards passkeys and Fido authentication. We've seen Google, Microsoft, Apple. Yeah, so I don't want to poo poo all over the MFA thing. It definitely feels like it's, I don't want to say legacy, but we're approaching that. It's kind of like, OK, SMS, right? That was top of the line 10 years ago. SMS is the best thing you can do now. It's not even recommended. Is it better than nothing?
Yes, of course. But people aren't recommending that you start with SMS now, They're starting with, hey, you should be looking at pass keys for your. I also think there's a difference between enterprise I am and customer I am. I think that's probably the biggest dividing line because usually customer I am is focused on apps and and the web, whereas employee workforces.
I mean it can be anything from legacy green screens to VPNs and and as well as you know apps that are either desktop apps or web enabled apps of all generations so. Those are different. They're captive audiences, right. I mean your employee, your your employer can say this is the way you're going to do that, right? And you don't have generally speaking much of A choice within those rails consumer side of things.
It's. How easily can I get you to spend money with me, right, or give me data or whatever The thing is right? So of course you need to have a minimum threshold of security, but it is much more open to, hey, let's look at it easier ways. You know, the user experience is much more predominant now. I think that's changing, thankfully, but I think that's still sort of a general thrust between the two. Yeah, absolutely. So I think the pesky's are a big
topic. You know how they fit into authentication, especially customer I am is something that we ought to explore And to that to that end we have a great guest today. Yeah. When you say explore, I think of the cowbell. Let's explore the space. Let's explore the space of task keys. Want to welcome to the show Pedro Martinez. He's a business owner for Digital Banking Authentication at Tallis Group. Welcome to the show, Pedro. Thank you very much.
It's a pleasure. Yeah, Thanks for taking the time with us. One of the things that we like to do when we have someone on for the first time is to really kind of learn their identity origin story. How did you get into the world of identity access management? Is it something that you chose or did it choose you? No, basically 25 years ago I went to a job interview knowing very exactly where I was going and I found myself working into.
And Identity and access company which at the time was called the Schlumberger and and has been evolving name over time to the point that today without having changed companies it's talents. So I didn't know at the at the end but it happened to be a. Very. A very lucky, I would say a very lucky situation because it put me in the right place at the right time because we are talking about this was 1998 when
I joined. And all the sudden it turns out that this company that I interviewed for and they finally hired me, their main business was to manufacture smart cards, smart cards for either banking, so for payment cards at the time that we were starting with the transition from.
Max drive towards cars with a chip and at the same time we were having the the big roll out worldwide of GSM technology with SIM cards and so you there was a point in the where where you essentially would be walking down the street and you will heat a stone and you would have a. A licence for a for a mobile operator popping out, popping out the floor. It was there were licences coming out all the time in each country around Europe and later
on it was around here. So it was, it was a boom of telecom and and it was, it was a happy moment to get into that kind of market that all the way until now changing a lot over the years because that was very hardware centric at the time. Around cars, the manufacturing, the personalization it was, it was not just manufacturing cars. The the main, the main value that we were bringing was the fact that every single SIM card or banking card that was leaving our factory was personalized.
It was charged with a specific unique credentials to be associated. So that was what was making. We were making millions, but each of one was coming out as a different product, already personalized from the factory at the time. So that evolved a lot and over time it, it turned more towards software and and back end services than the actual development.
So today it's a mix. We still do SIM cards, we do banking cards, but we do a lot of back end solution, server solution, solutions for securing digital banking, digital payment, tokenisation. Etcetera, etcetera. So that that was it was purely by chance. I didn't know what I was getting into and am I 25 years late?
That's how I feel like a lot of people in the space sort of just ended up in it. You have a title of business owner, at least I introduced you as business owner for digital banking authentication at Tallis Group. I got two questions. First question is what does business owner for digital banking authentication mean? You know, what do you do? And then tell us a little bit about Telus Group because I think it's it's a large company that people who prefer maybe people aren't familiar with
bring us up to speed on that. So well, first of all business owner means that my role today is not technical. I have a responsibility which is worldwide. It's not a specific to a region and I I I basically I'm following all the. Opportunities that we have for business related to these type of solutions of authentication for digital banking with customers and with our sales teams around the world. I am not frontline, not normally with customers. I am.
I am obviously our sales teams. Our sales teams are. I am called on occasion to to help, to assist, to have conversations and particularly with the topic of passkey that I've been exposed a lot over the last 1618 months. We have been very proactive in going and talking with customers and I have been and we wanted to gather as well a lot of feedback we were sharing with them what we knew and they were they were
coming back. So business owner means that I follow the business not not at a deep technical, just following the opportunities and helping our. Our regional teams to to sell, to sell our stuff, yeah. And Telus Group is a French company. I didn't know much about Schlumberger, but I just pronunciation leads me to believe that was a French company. Well, nothing to do because they were completely different companies.
I'll I'll just to as you as you mentioned Schlumberger, Schlumberger, I don't know if I'm pronouncing it well, I don't know if I but. The origin of that company is American, it was a couple of and the name of Lamborghinis probably is probably I think that it was to German or German origin brothers that the family name and it's a it's an American company Oilfield services as the main business.
But they had a division that was working on something completely different and it was the business that I was talking about. Smart cars, smart cars, technology now. And that's what that's what I joined over time. There was a point where we, we went through an IPO and we became an independent company. Just this division, there's so, so much it continues to to work and do a lot of great business around all field services, engineering, services, very, very impressive.
And we became an independent company under the name of Axalto. Then we merged with our first competitor which was, I'm talking about my my Origin that we merged with our main competitor. We became Gemalto at the time as a result of that and and we were the number one provider for, for all these kind of of products. So now Talas. And now Talas acquired us about
five years ago. And Talius is a big is a big big company French multinational with working with divisions around aerospace, around defence and also around civil services. And we have joined as a as a as a division within Talius around cybersecurity. Our the name of our division is is is DIS Digital Identity and Security.
And yeah, we we we bring that that aspect of for for security always with the aspect of security but very centre on on the digital life And so for those who are not very familiar are is supposed to be the work that you do in Europe. I'm sorry, are most of your customers in Europe? No, no, no, no. We we are. I mean, I if I talk, I. I'm going to talk about the DIS, the digital identity and security. We are a very multinational, very multinational company.
Even the part that related to Gemalto, remember that we were, we were, we were working with banks and with telcos and with governments, because I talk about banking cards and SIM cards, but we also were were providing electronic passports and electronic IDs, for example, as well as equipment for reading them. To to governments, to telcos, to banks. All around the world, All around the world. We are. So you're working with like some really large clients and this
idea of passwordless. I mean we've relied on the password for so long and I've heard you make the statement passkeys will replace the password. I'm wondering why you say that and what kind of reaction you get when you say that to these big organisations that you work with. So that's that's that's actually it. It it all started well, it all started last year. We have been working, we have been members of the Fido alliance since very early on.
We are board members and we have been participating actively leading leading WAR groups. We have contributing to it and we have been building products and certifying our own products as as Fido products. But it is a technology that we. Always consider that he had promise and we were following and we were coming with products.
But it was last year in May when Apple, Google and Microsoft did something that to my knowledge, because I haven't been able to find any president of that, did something unique, which was to issue a joint PR. The three of them. That was the moment where we said, OK, this is even bigger than. We thought it would be, it was we, we we really saw that this was going. We knew that everybody had been working and had been doing all the plumbing that would be necessary for this technology to
succeed. But sometimes that's not enough. No. But when we saw that level of commitment and that level of commitment from the three of them, we said OK, well, so here there is something big that is going is, is, is really going to happen and we decided that we needed to. Start to evangelise a little bit to take the opportunity. It was, it was, it was not the time yet to take an action from from customers last year.
But it was an opportunity for us to go see our own customers and and share information with them that we believe they would find valuable because what we were convinced is that they weren't, they didn't know what was coming. So even if there was this announcement. People was not processing visa. What is irrational at the time you read? Sorry, it sounded irrational because you if you haven't had time to observe the idea.
Yeah, or or or you just don't, you know, I mean, we have been depending on passwords for as long as there is Internet. It has come to a point and nobody likes them. Nobody, Neither the service providers nor the end users. Nobody likes to use passwords. And yet we have come to accept that it is what it is. It's always been like this. It gets to a point, except everybody that is working here on a solution. Everybody that is out of this
bubble. It has come to a point that they just accept that they have to manage 50 or 60 or 7 different passwords, that every time that they are going to a login that they have not visited in three or four months there a standard login user experience is going to be going through the password recovery mechanism. We have come to accept all that as as just the way things are, no and and even even our
interfaces in companies. Anyway, we we thought that we needed to go on, we needed to to share information and to see the reaction as well. And and we started to go out and we started to plan our most beloved customers and and and to
see them. And when we started to do these meetings indeed we we said we want to grab their attention and we are going to start by by by by poking a little bit and and I will start with a slide that was saying flat out and this is going at customers that I don't normally see. It's not like they know me. I mean, they they just see.
A weird guy that is coming with her with her with her the the typical contact which is the salesperson for that account or or anyway and and and and along comes these these weird guy you know and and he sits in the room and and he comes out and comes out with a slide and start by saying passkeys are going to kill password. It is inevitable, and it's going to happen fast. And the reaction was as expected. You could, you could see it.
I mean you would be in the room and maybe there were 5-6 people depending on on the gathering and the customer and all the sudden you would see a one guy typically security architect or so that would lean back on the chair and cross there and cross there. They didn't have to. Say anything. It was the body language. Yeah, yeah. They didn't say anything. No, but. But that was somehow intended.
It's a way to be you. It was creating a little bit of attention and then and then from there you you want. I wanted them no to to challenge that that statement. But when you go through it, the question was, OK, I understand you who you don't believe. Why would you believe it? I mean you have always seen these and it has never, it has
never happened. When you go through that and you start to explain them that, well then I was explaining why are they why it is inevitable that this is going to happen. And then I was starting with the lamest argument possible. Which was to tell them because they are great and they were kind of kind of laughing well, but they are great. Let's see. They are really great because they are clearly providing, compared to passwords, they are clearly providing a much better user experience.
And you could expect rolling their eyes, yeah, the better user experience, OK. They provide a much better security and you can get into actions and you can start to talk there about they cannot be fished. They cannot be subject to a massive data leaks that begins to touch ground because they have seen them. Either they have suffered them themselves or they have seen
nearby bombs dropping to them. And then you can tell them I need and and as a third argument of why they are great because they can reduce your cost very significantly. The cost of the password research represent one of the biggest 'cause that you have related to customer care, so that is quantifiable. OK, they are great, but that is not enough. What is the second big reason why it's inevitable is because and that's where where you you come out with APR and you say look at the level of
commitments. This is something unprecedented, these guys, Microsoft, Google, Apple and the industry behind them, because the Fido alliance with everything that comes behind these guys have declared publicly. That they are committed to end with passwords. This begins to be this begins to be something you've got to think if all of your Apple, Microsoft, Google, Amazon services start using passkeys. It becomes ubiquitous. Everybody gets used to doing it. Who's listening to this podcast?
Who isn't used to doing MFA? Because at one point in time, that was almost unheard of. They're going to send me a message to my phone and I've got to enter that. You know, it was, it was new. Well, now everybody gets it. You see that pop up? Check your phone for message or for a one time password, etcetera. The same thing's going to happen with passkeys, right? Yeah we are going to get used because we are going to see it.
But but there are two two aspects and this sometimes is it it gets especially talking and that's what a different you you said Microsoft, Google, Apple and Amazon. Obviously they are big must as as service providers but we have to make the difference with Microsoft, Google and Apple because the other reason that brings to say that this is inevitable is that day three they hold the platforms for all
the. End user communication devices, whether they are computers, tablets or or or phones that we all use, you have there practically 100% of the market. And if they three are telling we are going to make this happen we are going to do everything that is necessary at the level of our devices and at the level of the operating systems for this to be
enabled. That is a big thing and indeed they did the announcement that announcement that told us wait this is going to happen and over the next that was the 5th of May actually that's password they of 2022 and over the 5-6 months that followed they they they were true to their to their commitment because by the end of 2022 you had you had you had Windows, you had you had Android, you had iOS you had Mac OS equipped for passkeys natively.
Yeah, all along. So you're drawing the distinction on Google, Microsoft, because they have the devices. Next level down might be Amazon, eBay, TikTok, you know, does anybody not think this is going to happen? Is anybody thinking this is not going to happen? Well, it depends.
I mean if you, if you think well, OK, so so there is, there is, there is, there is banks, there is certain industries and in particular the banking industry that because that was the second part of the conversation that we were having at that table with those with those customers, no, even with, with with the person that was leaning back on the table. The first part of the conversation was to tell them this is going to happen, this technology is going to thrive.
The second part of the conversation was, well, is this fitting well for financial institutions? And there things were getting complicated. And in part, besides sharing information with them, we also wanted to get their feedback to see how they see it, because at the beginning there was quite some, quite some, quite some doubts. Why is that?
At the same time that Google, Apple and Microsoft said we are going to we are going to enable this technology and make it natively, they also came out with a notion of synchronisation of of pass keys. All the work that had been done at the Fido Alliance to build the pass keys was always under the consideration that a passkey was bound to a device. Passkey is created on one device, you create that
credential and that credential. Once it is created it it creates a unique link between a service provider, a user and and then a specific device and so it becomes a possession factor, a possession factor for a multi factor authentication. However, the moment that you enable synchronisation, which is great from for for more than one reason for one side because it simplifies the user experience, you don't need to create a passkey for every single device that you have.
You can just create one passkey on one device. And if you have multiple devices on the same my myself, I I use Apple devices. I've got to say, I have a Mac, I have a tablet, I have a. Fanboy. You're a fanboy. Well done. Hey, it. Works and they're good. Device I like we all, we all, we all have our. He said he stares at his back book. Anyway, The the The thing is that it's great.
I mean that's synchronisation, it simplifies life and it also solves an an everlasting issue related to a strong authentication which is the which is account recovery. You know if you lose your device then you need to again verify your identity in order to create on a new device etcetera etcetera. Having this backup, this is fantastic, but you have lost the notion of device binding that
when you create a passkey. I create it on one device on my iPhone, but all the sudden that I that passkey is going to flow through iCloud and end up available on my iPad and on my MacBook. Well, it's difficult to claim that that that is a a possession of it's proving it's it's it the possession factor. It's proving possession of what? At most, it's proving possession or control. It's really that I have control of my iCloud account, but not of which. Goes back to password which goes
back to password. So, so in in that was something and as we started discussing with with our banks we're telling this is going to come, this is something that is arriving but but what is, what is going to be your position of that? We're talking about the second-half of 2022. We're having these conversations and some were surprised and were saying no, no, this doesn't happen some and we were trying to form our own opinion and there were discussings into the Fido alliance as well.
No, in the end, in the end we scratched our head a little bit for a while. But over time as we had more and more interviews and we mature our own position it it is not that that complicated as that at least in our in our view. We think because there is there is any bank that today is using passwords even if it's partially because they require something more than passwords to meet regulation.
But if they are using passwords as part of their authentication policy, there is in our view, there is absolutely no doubt that they should jump at the possibility of replacing those passwords for sync passkies, for the passkies, even if they are synced. Sometimes when we were having this conversation, a customer would say no, no, but but no. I mean this is how, how are we going to accept that the credential, because the credential is ours, is between
me, the bank and my customer. How am I going to accept that this credential that is mine now it's going to go on flow to an iCloud or to a Google password manager and they would have to tell them And how is this different to what happens today already with passwords you have no control and that is already happening because because today when a user is going to a website on any of these if I go to my iPhone and I'm trying to log in into into a certain account, I can I can choose to
to to save it into my kitchen. So that is already happening with your credentials today. So you cannot consider that there is a loss because that's already happening to you. So don't don't look at it, don't compare pass keys with your strong authentication solution. But are you using passwords as part of your of your authentication policy at all?
If so, it's a no brainer. Replace as fast as you can those passwords for pass keys and if you have a solution for a strong authenticating OTP or whatever, whatever the solution it is that you to meet compliance combined with those passkeys. OK, it continues to work. You don't need to make any any effort with that. You can do low assurance authentication if you want through passkeys instead of
passwords. And then when you need to step up because you want to sign a transaction, you want to make a payment and and you need to do a higher authentication, apply whatever you have as as as already as a stronger think litigation mechanism and that works. And over time what can happen that's going to be very easy to implement because you just need to connect a back end and to do a very minor standard modification into your web
services. No, just implement web often so that you can be calling on passkis. You don't need to do anything on the client side because the the OS of the devices of the end users are already are are already taking their. So it's super easy to add passkey support to your web services and all the sudden you will see how customers start doing less passwords and more passkis and the more passkis they do and less passwords that's risk that you are removing, risk of phishing that
you are removing. It's it's it's only benefits that you have from the on that side. And if you do just that you are doing yourself a favour later on you can consider, well, I mean right now I'm having an infrastructure for authentication of passkis based on Fido and then I have another infrastructure in place for legacy. Legacy for a strong
authentication. You can say, well actually I don't need 2 infrastructures because I can use the fighter infrastructure as well to do to do authentication. That is 2 factor and that is acceptable from a compliance to regulation standpoint. How can you do that using the same back end, the same fighter back end that you have for basic passkeys? Now you can reuse it if you
want. If you want to to remove the old, the old infrastructure that you have for OTP, how well ensuring that pass keys don't don't synchronise. Now you were saying before that end users you you can't control them in a in AB to C environment, you cannot control them, you don't know which platforms they are using. So as far as there is one platform that is applying systematically synchronisation, well, those those you cannot. Consider that you have a solution that fulfils all your
users like that. So you cannot count on the pass keys that are managed by the platforms as your solution for authentication. But you can implement Fido, you can implement Fido and you can manage pass keys through other means, for example through an SDK. You can integrate A Fider functionality on your mobile app as they do today in in many cases. So the bank can use their own mobile app to they can add the fider functionality into the mobile apps.
How important is that control for an organization to own that portion of the authentication? So we talked about the platforms owning quite a bit of it right now, Google, Microsoft, Apple, but you just mentioned. A financial institution for example wanting to incorporate the authentication into their app in your in your dealings with that industry. How important is that control where they want to have that it is, it is. It is very important, I think
that they don't. They suddenly they don't want to relinquish financial institutions in general of at least of a of a medium sized to large size. They they say these are my customers when it comes to their to their service. These are my customers. These are my credentials. This is a direct relationship between between us. I have to be the master of of that relationship and they. Want to only in full authentication experience as much as they can anyway.
Yes, there are, I mean there are, there are in in most cases that's the case. There are some regional cases, there are some initiatives and we have some some very interesting presentations that are there are some, some small polls. For example in the Nordics, in Northern Europe, there has been an initiative actually where banks came together. There is a consortium of entities that came together and created an entity to manage identities which is which is called Bank ID.
The same concern that banks had with identity of the service, you know, 10-15 years ago was like, oh, I can't put my credentials up in the cloud. I need to have them on Prem and control them. You know, the thing that I think where you're getting with the argument of passkeys versus passwords is people can use their iCloud to sync their keychain, which is basically just the password.
But your password could also end up in some kind of password file out on the the dark web, and it can be used by anybody but the. The passkey can't because it's cryptographically signed and it's not something that could end up in some kind of dark web dump pass keys. So that is a risk that you completely remove from the table. Because pass keys are based on a symmetric cryptography, the fact that they are based on a asymmetric cryptography.
What it means is that what you are going to be storing on the server side, you need to have something on the server side. But it's not the entire key, it's just half of the key. So even if that would be if that server would be compromised and those keys would be stolen, that on itself doesn't allow to recover to recover all the. It doesn't break the security of
of that of that credential. So that is one of the massive arguments why a a a bank or any service provider for that matter that today is using passwords for authentication. They may want to they may want to move away from them as soon as possible into this because the the the question about the data leaks it's I mean there is the finance the direct financial loss but there is the the branding the branding laws is is it's and it's a nightmare so so that on that on itself is is
quite a motivation. So folks, for folks who are listening, it's 25 after three on Tuesday, you're going to be presenting in like 25 minutes. So, one hour, yeah. And one hour. OK. We really appreciate you talking through this with us, but we don't want to hold you back from that. You need a little bit of time to catch your breath, maybe have coffee or something. But thank you, Pedro. I mean, this is really educational.
My pleasure anytime. Yeah, so let's end on a lighter note here so you can get off and go and prepare and and psych yourself up. We were talking before we hit the record button that you're a soccer dad, you've got a couple of sons. I think you said that are playing soccer. Then the then the conversation turned a little bit towards Messi, who has become a phenomenon. He's already been a phenomenon
around the world, but. Unless you've been a die hard soccer player, you probably just kind of were maybe passing familiar. Now he's playing for Miami and Florida of your soccer dad duties. How do you see your sons and their journeys through the sport? Are we are we looking at maybe the next Messi somewhere in there or a different position? No, no, no. We're we're, I mean still too soon they will, they will do. They will do whatever they they
want. But for us it's just a matter of keeping them healthy and and doing a team sport and and getting into that. But to me what it it the only thing is that now they playing soccer and then watching soccer and then playing soccer because you have the the equivalent of the NFL games. It's all soccer all the time. All it's intensive but it's true that we were by tradition in the family fans of Barcelona and now to and we had Messi. We had the lack of have this guy in in in our team.
And to see the impact that now he's having in a country that doesn't have the tradition of it's. It's funny to see the the kind of craze that he's generating in a country, in a country that that traditionally didn't pay as much attention to to soccer and as as it was before. So does that give a sense of? Pride when you see that happening. Or is it a sense of loss because he used to play? No, no, I'm.
I'm really happy for the guy because it's, you know, there are great sports guys that are that are just great at at what they do, but as a person, you don't. You don't. I mean, he doesn't, he doesn't. I mean they are too fond of themselves or they they don't and you don't You don't see them as a role, as a role model for example for your kids and this is a guy that has been it's he's
great in what he does. He's exceptional about any kind of measure and he's a very humble very reasonable very nice. He doesn't has outbursts or anything like that and he he won the World Cup after have been chasing it for many years in the late stages of his career. And now to see him the kind of things he's doing, every time that he does something that is remarkable, we we just get a smile. No it's it's it's it's it's happy to see him to see to see him thrive and to see the kids
obsessed with him as well. So the Barcelona? Fans, Are they Florida MLS fans at this point? Or Miami, I should say. Or you follow a player versus A-Team? No, no, I would say that people have sympathy for the for people from Barcelona have sympathy for Miami now because Messi is in there. And not only Messi mean, there were a couple of players, X bars of players that went along as well.
So now now I it's a very rare thing to see because there was no interest whatsoever in Spain about MLS here. And then now you can have a conversation of what did Miami last week which was unheard of before. So it's amazing when a transcendent. Player can do that or anything. Can see that occasionally with maybe basketball player coming from some area of the world
right into. One league or another or baseball was another one, which I know, Jim, you were just chomping at the bit to to get into that one. So I. Was in a conversation with Denise and one of her friends and she sent a picture of a guy that she's dating her her friend. And she said I was like, he looks like somebody famous. She's like, yeah, he looks like Victoria Beckham's husband. David Beckham? No, she. Said it right the the spice. Spice Girl, Right.
She was a Spice Girl, yeah. Anyway, but he. Came over and played in the MLS for a while, but I think it was more of like, you know, it got some attention. But from what I understand now, Messi's over here. Just like dominating, right? Which that's kind of cool. I mean my Uber driver from the airport to the resort here. He's like, do you want to listen to something or watch something? I'm like, I don't care. And So what do you, what does he
put on? He puts on like this highlight reel of messy, just scoring goals and winning championships and stuff. And it was probably still playing. After the 40, Yeah, he was. Still going he's. Probably watched it hundreds. Of times I guess. But yeah, I it's I used. To play soccer when I was a kid and it's interesting see how MLS has gotten. Progressively more popular over
the years. I mean it's still very much not anywhere near you know NFLNBA, you know at hockey, baseball and then you've got sort of MLSI think it's kind of after that. But there was a just a genuine excitement when you, you know, a player of that caliber comes over. I was, I was concerned and he's OK. He's going to come over. He's towards the end of his career. What does that mean? He's not going to be able to produce whatever guy comes out,
scores, goals left. I mean, he delivered right away and it was like this shot of adrenaline that went through MLS. It was the worst. Team in the MLS this season the guy arrived and he played six, seven matches and he won a title for them just to straight up it was. I mean, they were expecting him to make an impact, but they no one was expecting that he would do that. Right off the bat, as he arrived to them, it was, it was funny to. It was funny to watch. It was funny to watch.
A real Cinderella, a Cinderella story. We're going to go ahead and wrap it up for this conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time. My pleasure. I think we'll be recording another episode when you're on stage, so we'll be simpatico with you thinking about that. But it was great to meet you, Great to have this conversation. I'll have some links in our show notes so that people connect with you on LinkedIn if they
have any questions. So I have a link to the Telus group as well so people can find out more about what goes on over there. We'll have links to myself and Jim on LinkedIn as well. We're on the web. idacpodcast.com we're on Twitter slash X slash whatever it's called. By the time you listen to this at IDAC Podcast Mastodon at IDAC podcast at infosec dot exchange Like, subscribe, share with a friend, share with an enemy, I don't care. As long as people are listening,
we'll keep doing this. Thanks to everyone for listening and we'll talk with everyone in the next one.