This is identity at the center. If it has anything to do with I am this is the go-to podcast. So if you're a beginner or an expert or anyone in between you've found your new home welcome to Identity at the center now your host Jim McDonald and Jeff Steadman Welcome to the identity of the center podcast. I'm Jeff. And this is my co-host, Andy. Hi Andy. I Jeff. I seem to have been upgraded to co-host. That's rather exciting. Yeah, we have a guest spot for you today.
Jim is on assignment as we like, to say in the business. So we're fortunate to have you back here. Welcome back to the show. Andy, thank you. It's always a pleasure to be on. So, people who aren't familiar with Andy handle, he is the identity verse conference chair. He's also a board member with Kent, our initiative board member with ID Pro and also So people may not know this.
A real live identity and access management consulting by way of hindle Consulting, who's joining us all the way from England. So, thank you so much for being part of this conversation today. No, that's a pleasure, and if you listen carefully, you can tell that I'm a long way away, right? That's the miracle of modern audio. It is crazy. So you're coming from England and I'm going to be in London, in June to watch the Cubs play, the Cardinals and to go to a pink concert.
I'm not much of a baseball. Fan. I'm not much of a pink fan but I'm going for the story and as a makeup for my trip which was cut off for canceled, really from the pandemic back in 2020. I'm going to be staying downtown. I don't know if that's what one calls it, but I'll be in London City proper and we're going to try to get together hopefully for tea or dinner or something. He where should we go t-west go? Well there's lots and lots of
stuff to see, right? Have you been sleepin to the teakettle so if we get, no, I No, I've been to Heathrow and then I've been to Framingham and Windsor, that's it. Well, the best places. So yeah, so look if you if you wanted to do kind of the quintessential, you know, English high tea experience which always makes me laugh because literally Nobody Does that. But if you did want to do it I would suggest you know there are some there are some super famous places to go right.
There's the rates I guess which is classic nice claridge's which is classic. So there are definitely some Some options. And yeah if you're if you're around let me know what dates and we'll we'll try and get together and do something fun. Yeah, that'll be pretty cool. So looking forward to that, I'm also looking forward to identifiers which is coming up and that's really kind of the reason that we're having this conversation today.
I guess, for those who aren't familiar with identify verse, what is it? What is it? That's a good question. Is this like a meta verse you know, are we in the VR, what's going on here? So, you know, identify this has been around now for about 14 years, I guess this year started out as a conference focused Cific Cleon Cloud identity. In fact, it used to be called Cloud, identity Summit, and then it grew over the years.
And we realized I want to say, like five six years ago, that it was, it was more than just Cloud identity, right? And so, we renamed the thing to identify verse and, and so that's that's what it is, right. It's an annual conference and trade show. So, so we've got a big show floor as well, and lots of sponsors that really focuses on Digital identity in its broadest sense.
And so we've got lots of material that's aimed at, you know, your technical digital identity, professional rates, authorization authentication provisioning, use a life cycle AGA, like all of those wonderful things we evidently touch on the, the, to sort of big adjacent Industries and so, that would be cybersecurity where there's some overlap and privacy, right? Where there's some, some evident
intersection as well. And everyone I suspect is familiar with several iterations of what I think was originally Eve, mailers, quote-unquote, Venn diagram, that kind of shows those those three things together, right? Identity security, and privacy, or privacy.
For those of you that like the English pronunciation from the English roots and then what we started to do, Little bit over the last couple of years and which I think will be an increasing Trend as an addition to, that materials are not replacing it or changing it. But just adding along the side of it is some slightly more business-focused material rate. So one of the one of the questions that comes up a lot is you know look I'm running on a Downy project in a large
business. It's really hard to get budget, it's really hard to get funding. It's really hard to defend the size team that I need. It's really hard to get the investment in professional development that I need. Like why is that? And in my view and I think other people share this perspective, part of the problem at least is
that helping the business? Understand what the value to the business is is a little tricky and it quite often has come down to how do I protect things right and so and yet we all know in the identity industry that it's about a lot more than that. A lot of cases it's about how do I make this project happen? How do I make the experience for customers better? Why protect my customers better, which is a value, add to the
customer, right? Whether that's a consumer or, you know, part of my supply chain or whatever it might be, that is starting to change. And so, I think there's a role for a donor verse to play Beyond, just that sort of core material that we've had for a long time in in helping the business side of the, the equation to kind of understand what it is that we do and why that's important to them.
And for me I think that starts with helping digital identity professionals, explain what it is that we do, you know? And then over time hopefully starting to get some more of the business owners project managers project leads, you know, digital identity, sorry, digital transformation directors. Those kinds of folks to come along and kind of get a real understanding, okay? This is how this helps, you know, fundamentally Drive the business forwards.
I love that idea. Because they think this is an area that a lot of identity folks really need help with is articulating to non-identity people. What the hell do we do, right? Why is it important? You know, why does it cost so much money? Why do we need so many people to do this identity thing and to do it right? And I'm happy to see that.
Yeah, it's interesting. You know, it's something we've touched on on and off over the years at the conference and it's absolutely I'm a bigger challenge. It's actually very, very similar to what happened.
I think in in the cybersecurity industry, a while back, you know, it took a little time but you know, eventually cybersecurity became a thing that had a seat at the, you know, at the sea level and it's a topic that gets talked about in boardrooms, you know, at that level as well privacy over the last few years has been through that very much that same Journey, mostly not Entirely, but mostly probably driven by some of the regulatory landscape changes.
But again, you know, you look at the way that Apple approaches privacy and data standard example. But there are absolutely others and it's becoming a USP, right? It's a proposition to the customer and say, look, we look after your dad. Now I don't want to get into a conversation about whether that's true or not, right? But from a pure sales perspective and for those of you who can't watching as it were, Jeff is laughing.
Hysterically in the background, I said that but You know, it's it's clearly become a thing that certain companies choose to kind of compete around. And so I think, you know, we're probably at the beginning of that Journey for identity and in fact, one of the things that we've got that identity versus is a friend and colleague of mine and I know he's been on the show a few times more than a few times.
I think Jeff. Ian Glaser is going to do a panel with a couple of other folks to talk exactly about has it time that we had a sea level. Roll that identity kind of rolls up to and there are pros and cons to that, to that argument, right? But I think having the conversation is, you know, the fact that we're even even a point of having the conversation, says an awful lot about, you know, kind of where the industry is today and where it needs to get to tomorrow. Yeah, Ian's awesome.
He's like, such a good speaker. I'm, I'm interested to see if this concept of this c-level executive level identity person. I think the most important thing. That we need to do around this is to make sure that it's branded appropriately. What do we call it, right? Is it Chief digital identity officer? Can we have like a cool nickname like CDO, like C-3PO? Like, that's the most important thing that we've got to really solve. It doesn't matter what they do,
as long as the name is cool. It's the way I feel. Yes, it's just occurring to me that if you drop the officer off and you just make it Chief identity. Then you have said, answer, it's important. We've got to have, we've got to have good. In here. Yes. You know, I think the other thing too is, so the conference begins May 30th and, you know, and you've been really a great
friend for the show. You're the reason we have a discount code for people to, you know, who are listening to this to be able to get a discount to go. So for those who aren't familiar, right? We've got 20% discount code off your identify, this reservation that registration easy for me to say the code will be in our show notes, but I'll say it here as well. ID V Dash icen 23, it gets 20% off. We've got the early bird is still going on until I believe
April 27th. So there's just a little bit of time left. You want to take advantage of the last early bird discount but hopefully people can combine that with our discount code. But seriously man, thank you so much for you know, helping us. Get that in place for listeners. Hopefully we've got, you know, some people who be able to take advantage of it and be able to attend in in Vegas with us. Yeah, no. It's a real pleasure and look, you know, I'm obviously biased right?
Like I've been involved with the show. It's my show, obviously Andres your and up paying found it years ago and then CRA to could over just before the show last year, but I've been involved with it for a long time. Like I say, I'm evidently biased but I really think that people get an awful lot out of it from a professional standpoint and so, you know, anything that I can do to help that sort of professional development Journey.
I'm I'm happy to do, right, like I've gotten a lot, Out of the industry. And so to the extent that I can help, but stuff back, I'm delighted to do it. It's very cool. And so I booked my flight a couple days ago, I'll be there, the show will be there were planning on doing some recording. I think we're all starting to line up, maybe some guests. So there's some interesting things that were working on that. I don't think we're quite ready to get it out there in the public yet.
But some ideas we've got. We'll see what comes through. You mentioned the new ownership CRA. I was not able to attend. Last year. I was in a middle of a move sort of across the country kind of sort of and I think Jim was in the same same boat. So I guess. Are there any noticeable differences between the new ownership CRA versus Ping when it came to the conference before? Because one of the things that I think I always felt about this conference was one, it's a great conference.
Definitely one of the ones you should be attending if you need any space, but he also felt like when it was owned by ping. They did a really good job of being really inclusive for a lot of identity talk competitors. You know, vendors wasn't sure it was a pink conference, but it didn't feel like I was going to a pink conference. It felt like, Was going to and identity conference has there been any noticeable differences or what should I expect? Is my first time going to a CRA
run. I dunno. Verse compared to the last one that was probably had a couple years ago. Yeah, that's a. That's a really interesting question Jeff. And I reminds me, I think we talked about this, you know, a few podcast episodes back. But the conference was always always, you know, when it was originally Only set up. And the way it's always been wrong has been as an industry
conference. And in fact I worked for paying a long time ago, but my involvement with the conference in the role that a time that I've been in for gosh, eight years now, actually has not been as an employee either of paying, or in fact to CRA, right? So, I do this work externally and that helps to some extent for us to kind of keep the agenda that's as clean as we reasonably can. Can write. And in fact, we've got a fairly
rigorous process. I don't want to go so far as to say, well, I can academic conference because we're really not, right? There's a whole much much deeper sort of set of things that goes around the, the academic conferences, but we do have a process of reviewing material that comes in through, call for presentations and then reviewing that material before it gets published. We've got a whole content committee. A number of whom have been on board for a while.
That you know, we refresh that on a on an ongoing basis as well partly because you know frankly people do it for a few years and they're like I'm done thank you very much. But you know we also have new voices coming up. We have new technologies emerging.
We have new markets to talk about so it's always been run that way and you know I I sort of hesitate to answer the question that you've asked as bluntly as I'm going to the question, you know, the initial question was, is anything change and kind of the Answer is no right and deliberately. So in fact, as you said, you know, the acquisition CRA made last year was announced. I want to say in December January in the run-up to the conference in June and then
Andre and CRA CEO. A Dogma Tony actually stood on stage and had a conversation in front of everybody in the audience and kind of you know, helped everybody understand sort of what the future was going to look like. So we really haven't changed very much. In terms of the basics of the event rate, your gender is still constructed the same way, the Expo floor still looks like Expo floor. The quality of the overall experience, which is something that's always been a focus for
us, right? Is still very much the same. Having said all of that, the industry is growing right. And we talked about this at the top of the show, the way that we need to talk about the industry is changing. The people that we need. To talk to it about is changing Technologies are changing. And so it's the right thing for us to look at okay, keeping the core as the core. What else do we need to do to start to grow in support of the industry? That we serve right.
And so yeah, there are going to be some things that will change a little bit. We're adding some stuff into the
agenda, we're starting. Process this year and it will be, it will, you know, continue into into next year and the year after particularly around, you know, some of the business side of things, some of the more strategic sort of stuff, in fact, CRA just, I want to say a few weeks ago and I might be out by n weeks, but announced a relationship, a strategic relationship with liminal the consulting firm so, liminal amongst other things used to run.
The no identity conference. And so you know CRA of developed a strategic relationship with liminal you'll see them around at the show they've got you know some interesting perspectives to add to the to the overall kind of Melting Pot which I think will be really interesting and very valuable. And I think there are other you know, consulting firms other vendors from not necessarily your core identity. Space that we'll start to see emerging.
And again, a lot of that is reflective of what's happening in the industry, right? If you go out and look at, you know where investment is flowing in the industry, you look at where some of the new technologies are coming. Yeah there's absolutely movement in what you might consider to the traditional I'm doing air quotes but traditional you know, kind of kind of core. I am technology but there's also a bunch of stuff going on around the edges of that in new areas,
right? You look at some of the stuff that's Is happening from a verified any perspective you know attribute exchange is all the regulatory stuff that's going around mdl and in verified identity in a number of countries you know the stuff that's flowing from that into things like wallets. I we haven't you know that isn't that isn't something that traditionally we think all those core I am. Right. Digital identity wallet. Oh okay.
But maybe it is something that we need to start thinking about. So, back to the original question, not a lot, has changed at a fundamental level, the experience will still be much the same different better like it is every year, right? But we're starting to add some of that additional stuff around the edges, which I think will be really important for people. And then, you actually asked a second question, Jeff right at the end, which was a, what's the experience for somebody that's
coming new to the show? Now that's a hard one for me to
answer. is it because I haven't been new to the show for a really long time but we spent a little bit of time last year talking to some folks who were new to the show and You know, when I say we me couple of folks on the content committee, some folks from ID Pro, some folks, from women and identity and we've got, you know, relationships with with those organizations as with many others and one of the things I think that comes across is people find it incredibly
valuable to have lots of names that they recognize from the industry, right? So we already talked about Ian, But Vittoria Bertolucci, right? Or Brian Campbell or even mailer or you know, people whose names they've seen on specifications, or that have stood up at other big conferences that they've heard about all they've read blogs away, you know, that's fantastic. And they're there and they get to hear them. And in theory, they get to go and talk to them and we all do, right?
But it's It's a little intimidating, if it's your first time. And some people are very comfortable with that and they weighed in and they get to know folks and that's wonderful. But lots of people are not built that way. And in all honesty I'm not right? Like I like to have somebody introduced me to somebody else and then I can have a conversation with them, but it's taken a long time for me to get over that sort of walk into a room, there's 300 people.
Then there's someone whose name I recognize but do I really want to go up and like start a conversation? That's hard. So one of the things We're going to do this year in conjunction with ID program with weird is for those folks that are new to identify us. We're going to do a session right up front on the Tuesday, which is the day that we start before the main agenda starts, which is going to help cut out. Help people get more out of the week help people navigate the week.
It's not that it's a scary event to attend, right? It's really not. It's actually very friendly event. The question is okay, with in that friendly welcoming context, how do I get to talk to the people that I want to get to talk to you? How do I figure out which things to attend? What are the tips and tricks for me to get the most out of that week, right? I think the other I would say for anyone that's coming to it. New is it's a lot more than just
the conference, right? So we talked about obviously big agenda and it is a big agenda, will have somewhere between 150 and 200 speakers this year, which is a lot, it moves fast, right? So, you got to kind of keep up with day a little bit. We've got a big show floor, it'll be the biggest we've ever had lots going on there as well, right? There's some, some content that's going to be running around the edges. The of the trade show for as well.
So, for those folks that need to understand sort of what's happening in the product landscape. There's there's all of that and then there's all the other stuff that goes around it, right? So we've had lots of traditions that identity verse four years and some of them continue and so
on them change. But things like, you know, yoga and boot camp sessions in the morning, the welcome reception, which has some, you know, some stuff that goes on around it, we've got, you know, the closing party which traditionally has been, you know, one of the big focuses Focuses for the week and a whole variety of other sort of activities that happen around the edges show. So, I think, for a lot of people that have maybe attended more, let's say, traditionally run
conferences. Yeah, we do that stuff. But there's other stuff too, right? And I think that's worth bearing in mind and then, hey, we're in Vegas this year. So not my choice. But I am given to understand that some people Like that experience. And so there's all of that to go explore as well. If you want to, I am a fan of Vegas. I feel like it's a very polarizing Choice. Some people are Vegas. Some people hate Vegas. I don't know anybody who's in
the middle. It's like, yeah, there's the two extremes out there. I'm a fan of it. I think it's I think it's a great spot to have it. One of the things that you mentioned there and it just was as you're talking and say kike The conference seems fresh and I think that's the most important part of putting together. Any sort of agenda, topic speaker structure, you know, all this stuff goes into. This is, how do you keep it
fresh year over year over year? And I think that is the great /. Fun / hard thing about identity, is that things change a lot even just within a year, right? Trends, new technologies, new threats, right? That we have to be kind of be concerned about. And that freshness, I think it's something. That you know, every conference probably strives to inject into that as I go. Okay, well, I went last year, why should I go again this year and maybe some people are on Cycles?
You know, I know, I know a couple people who was like, okay well I go like every two years or every three years to see what's going on. I'm a fan of going to as many as I can, you know, that the content is great. But the thing that I find the most invaluable are the hallway conversations, I was at Gartner just a few weeks ago and I don't think I was able to attend very many sessions. I had a cute. I've had a couple key notes.
I had a couple of sessions with like Becky and Enrique and stuff like that from Gartner analyst side of things. And those were great, but I spent a lot of time just talking with people and I think that's the one thing that I really appreciate about this identity. Space is, people are very
welcoming. So if you see people having a conversation, if you see people out there is like, hey, there's Vittorio and his Italy, you know, gorgeous main, I want to go talk to him and find out what is using for shampoo and conditioner. You know, go do it because people are cool man. I mean, they're very receptive to going walking off. Introducing this other stuff like that. I feel like it's I'm the same
way. It's a little bit, you know, if you're more of an introvert you kind of have to get out of that bubble and just walk up and say hello which can be tough and I get that find someone to make an introduction, you know, I think it's that's another area that's like hey if you're going with somebody else, you know there's strength in numbers or maybe if you know someone who's Going to there. Maybe they know someone and they can help make an introduction.
I always find it really awkward when you like, you know, this isit. This actually happened at a fennec eight last year. In Seattle, was the torrio Ian. And I think it was Dean maybe from AWS, we're all kind of standing around kind of Talking Like These are Heavy Hitters in the identity space to do a lot of talk talks and presentations
of like that. And I had kind of known you know, Vittorio Indian but didn't really know Dean so much and I just kind of I walked up and just kind of stood there awkwardly like oh and I just kind of joined the conversation right? But it was cool right? A oh that's not an opportunity that you get especially when you are remote all the time or if you're not attending conferences, that to me is the most valuable part. Yes, the content is good. Meet people.
Go talk with people have conversations. I think there's a lot of value in that as well. Yeah, I think that's really good advice, Jeff and I agree, right? I like I say, it's hard for me to judge identify us anymore.
Any because I'm I'm, you know, I'm there as it were and I've been there for a long time, but, all right, it is an incredibly welcoming industry and it's it, maybe feels a little disingenuous for you and I to be sitting hearing and we're throwing these names around right that people recognize and yet it's worth saying that, you know, for all that were involved in a pretty Deep Way in the industry. There are still lots of people that we don't know, right?
And so it's not at all uncommon for me to have to, you know, to have exactly the experience. You just described of, oh, wait, there's this person whose name I vaguely recognize who I don't know. Looks after identity regulation for the UK government. Right? Okay. Well, I should probably go get to know that person and I have I'd like where do you start with that? Hi, I'm Andy, I ride anniversary. Okay. Yeah. It's not obvious but it is an
incredibly welcoming industry. And I felt that from very early on like I didn't I didn't kind of grow up in this industry. Some people did write it was their first career out of school and that's and that's what they did. That wasn't my case thought. But yeah, really really welcoming industry and I think your observation that it's a rapidly changing industry, it has been True and continues to be true. In fact, so Ida Pro for a number
of years. Now has run a skills and program survey we added some, some diversity components to that a few years ago as well. And really, the purpose of that is to help help ID Pro, but also to help the industry. Understand what shape. The professional industry is. Right? And honestly, nobody knew, right. Nobody had any idea. Well, Questions. Like, how long does it take you
to feel proficient, right? And you can go and, you know, kind of look at the last four years, five years results on the only Pro website, but basically the number of people that say, I still don't feel proficient. And if you correlate that with the folks who've been in the industry for a long time, you get this weird sort of inverted curve, right, where people start off and they're in the industry one or two years and I don't
feel profession. Aunt. And then you get folks in the middle who are like between say three and about seven or eight years who are like I got this. Then you get the people like you know, who've been in the industry for 10 12, 14, 16 years, you're like no, I have no clue what's going on anymore and that has been true, right? Those results have been pretty consistent for a number of years. Now, in fact, will occasionally
Danvers the eye. Pro Crowder stood up and kind of talked about that in some detail this year, we'll go through it. I think there's a couple of sessions will all go through it at a slightly, higher level, and probably with a bit more reference to, you know, sort of what is the professional development Journey look like. And what are some ways to think
about? You know, the way that we develop our, our careers in what is increasingly a sort of quote unquote, professionalized it ministry, right? But I invest some really, really Interesting stuff in that. One of the other things that's interesting, is the number of new people that are now emerging in the industry, right? Like again, it's growing and it's growing very rapidly and
you talked about freshness. So, one of the things that that we look at and I talked about this on the main stage, quite a lot of identity is actually, but we we obviously look at an inclusivity across the agenda, and it's hard, right? It's And in this industry, as it is in any other. We know that there are that there are challenges there and we do our best to address them. I will say that. I don't think we do as well as I would like us to.
But I'm proud of the fact that at least we're trying. Right. One of and part of that is, how do you define inclusiveness? And so for us it's always been a very broad definition and part The reason I bring it up in this context is one of the dimensions that we look at is the number of new voices across the speakers write the number of new voices versus the number of people who've spoken at a den of us before. For exactly that reason, right? You want to hear from different people?
And yeah, there's some added value there in terms of helping people, you know, have some career progression opportunities and demonstrate all the stuff that they can do in worst of it. So we typically run somewhere between, you know, any given year 40 to 60 percent of the, you know, overall speaker makeup is new speakers, new presenters to the conference and that's been consistent now. At least five years if not longer. I personally and I would say
this, right? I think that's really important. I would be fascinated to know what other people think, right? So you know if you're listening to this and you go to identify verse and you get the little survey question ever afterwards or even if you're in a session, right? Do the in session survey it just asks you know like did you enjoy the session or whatever? But Provide that feedback, right? Let us know because it's always
that thing. It's not like we know any better than anybody else and if we don't get the feedback from people about, yeah, this topic was good. This topic wasn't great. This presented was clearly knew and they need to find their voice but they had some really interesting things to say, and that's the other thing I'd encourage, if you are giving feedback, what there are ways to make it positive, right? Like, you don't have to be grumpy in the survey feedback, okay?
You suck. Get off stage, you know. Like let's avoid that but constructive criticism, that's well-meant well-intentioned, I think is incredibly helpful. So I would really encourage people to kind of engage with that. You know, if you are attending, let us know what you think. That's super helpful. I love that idea. I think, you know, be fair with that kind of thing. Getting on stage is not easy, right? You're putting yourself out there. Think about that, right?
From your perspective, like you're sitting in the chair listening. You're not up on stage, so Maybe someday it'll be you and I think that that feedback does help right? Is understanding. And yeah maybe it is the first time, you know, you're hearing from somebody and, you know, maybe they knock out of the park. Maybe there's a couple things work on. That's cool. They took the step of getting on stage and putting themselves out there, which I think is the first step towards.
Yeah. Keeping that freshness, keeping that that, that conversation alive. I love the idea of have a new speakers out there and, you know, kind of hearing it's out there because at some point, right? There's going to be a Changing of the Guard and it's a constant. Refresh in a cycle, right? At some point there will be new sort of you know leaders in the space that are out there giving opinions or coming up with new ways of doing things that I think people need to hear about you.
And I were talking a couple days ago about, you know, who are some of these new speakers and maybe trying to get them on the show here making and you know, Andy, can you make an introduction for me and Jim Wright, they go have a conversation, you know, with these folks and see if they'd be interested in being on the podcast and things like that. So yeah, I'm excited to be that. And that's a really fun idea and
already valuable idea. And, you know, maybe one of the things we're not brainstorming live on the podcast, but, you know, maybe 120 doings that. Yeah. So maybe one of the things we do is, you know, you guys are going to be there in Vegas, in a couple months time and, yeah, you know, I can go through the agenda and try and say, well, you should go to this and this and this, but you guys are going
to be that, right? So, I would do a little bit of divide and conquer and go and go and listen, right currency while, you know, who's out there that saying, some stuff that You know, that's a different perspective. That's a different take that, you know, maybe is a couple of years into their career that you know we need to hear from and it's occurring to me that there may well.
Be some folks, you know, listening to this who are in that group of hey this is my first identify a person like well, you know, and so yet the Obama show, we're friendly. I swear if we take good care of people, exactly. But actually, it's true, right, we get feedback. So, like, I say, we've got a process For this, that's that's again, not perfect, but, reasonably well, established, over over a number of years. Everything that gets presented in the main agenda goes through this.
This content review, process with the content committee and actually goes through a two-step process and it is absolutely designed to be a supportive helpful constructive process process, right? It's not a case of the content committee trying to editorialize. What we're trying to do is to make sure that speakers have as good an experience as they can and we are Some really nice feedback last year. This didn't come to me directly.
It came through one of the content could members but someone who actually is an experienced presenter, right? And they speak at conferences fairly technical conferences around the world and have done for years and their commentary was like I have never had the amount of constructive feedback
through a Content review. Then I got that identifies to the extent that it actually led to some improvements in the Nation that they were writing right now that isn't going to happen for everybody but you know folks that are new absolutely. A Gonna Get, You know, here's a way to think about constructing this material in a more effective way. Or have you considered putting a summary slide at the end because that'll help people remember what you said. Or, you know, sometimes it's the
basic things. You've got a 20-minute presentation unless you rem Glaser 121 slides is not going to work. Right? And and we can help with that. And there are lots of people even within the community who are willing to help. So if you happen to be a member ID Pro, you know, I would reach out and select Channel there and say, hey look, I'm I'm preparing my deck and I'd love to get some pointers and people will help, right? They'll absolutely help. Yeah. It's a it's a fun thing to be
involved. In is all I can say. Yeah. The creative process is interesting. I think back to like our first episode of me in my basement with a very echoey microphone and now here we are. The audio quality is gotten better as a contact gun better. I don't know. I feel like we've been relatively consistent, but we get feedback all the time. Too much banter upfront. You took too long to get to the topic, right? You're talking about things that don't make sense to me.
Maybe they make sense of someone else, you know? And we take that out, you know? And I think that's part of that same process, right? Is you can get smarter over time. Our time, it's okay to evolve adapt iterate, right? Because a lot of times and maybe I'm maybe I'm peeling back a little bit of the conference circuit tour. Is you develop you know, a talk or presentation and you might give it one, two, three, ten
times. And you will take feedback as you go on the way to say, oh, okay, here's another way that I can kind of do this or make it more specific to the type of audience is going into. So, you know, it's interesting to see the first time someone presents. And then to see it maybe a year or two later when they're presenting again at a different, you know, venue for people who maybe haven't seen it before and to see what's changed. And that's a result of that feedback.
They probably got behind the scenes. Yeah, that's a really interesting observation Jeff and you up, you're absolutely right. You know, the the way that talks evolved over time is, is fascinating, and it actually leads me to a thought, which is, you know, for those people that do have the opportunity to do that, that's fantastic. Equally if you're turning up at a Conference and this is the
first run right? Whether it's identifies or any other conference, I would highly highly highly recommend finding a couple of friendlies and doing a full run-through of like properly presented maybe even two or three times just to help
hone it a little bit. So that actually the first time you do it and particularly, if presenting isn't a thing that you do on a regular The first time you do, it isn't the first time you did it. And it's funny because I fell into exactly this trap actually not with the presentation, but with a podcast and it wasn't this one, it was a different one that wasn't specifically focused on identity, but it was the
first one that I ever done. And I assumed that given that I present and I do that, you know, like freely without About notes and I make stuff up and it's fine because I know stuff and that's okay, right? And I'm used to it. I just assumed that I could get on a podcast and it would be fine. And you know what? It's not. And so I learned and this was what like two years ago. So not a long time ago, this is
recent and I make notes. Now for podcasts of here are the things that I want to talk about and here are some key facts that I don't want to forget halfway through and then you know when Jeff asks me a question, I'm like I'm going to make a note of that somewhere, very quietly so that the sound doesn't come through the microphone. I'm Thudding. See, Jeff. Thank you. Thank you. And you know, so that I know that I can come back around to it later and it it's a constant
learning experience. And so I go for the new people, I'd absolutely say, you know, even the folks that are standing up on that big stage and identify verse or Gartner or you know, RSA, whatever it is. Everybody is still learning how to get better at this, right? Yeah, I think you bring up a really good point there too, but the rehearse it right, understand it? No. The content. Here's my Pro tip.
Don't read a slide, there's nothing worse than being than having a slide full of text and you're literally just reading it to the person I could have done that. I think the challenge for a lot of people is when they're finding their voice is not being afraid, to let their personality show be dynamic, right? Let some of your personal to go through. Yeah. Identity. You know, may not be the most
exciting Topic in the world. I hate to say it, but there are ways to still make it entertaining, engaging, you know, no, you don't want to be the monotone voice saying everything in the same tone, and just kind of reading a voice, write a robot, that kind of thing is take a moment, right? You don't have to fill dead air, right? You can have Thoughtful pauses, as you're going through the conversation. So I know it's a skill.
I mean you mentioned, you know taking notes we do that for all of our shows here is we put together sort of here's the idea for the topic and let's come up with like three to five questions so that Jim and I don't ramble, you know too far off the beaten path sometimes we do sometimes Jim goes a downer path and I have to pull them back to the light. You like come on let's go let's go let's bring it back up but you know that's just part of the process so yeah I think I think
it's a great idea. Is to make sure if, especially, if it's your first time presenting this year, if you're listening to this, I'd be happy to listen to it. You know, feel free. You know, we do that for our friends and, you know, everybody identity space that I come across has been very friendly and happy to do that too.
So I want to shift gears a little bit because you mentioned a couple things like women, and identity and ID Pro, it seems to me that ID pro has sort of made identify verse sort of the whole conference for them. And I wonder about, you know, relationships between some of these organizations like, women identity, like Like ID Pro like others. What is though, what does that type of relationship with the conference itself? Is their influence on? What are some of the tracks or topics?
You know. Are there Events maybe they get kind of set aside you know for some of those folks, those types of things. Yeah, that was a thoughtful pause. Just then, folks. So yeah, we do. We absolutely have those relationships with a number of organizations, and I think the nature of those relationships to some degree. Mmm, dictates is, maybe not the right word. But influences, you know what the impact is?
So we'll start with ID Pro, just because I think you started with it, so I'll start with it Ida Pro, and it was founded in. Well, a little bit before 2017, but it was the 2017 conference, which was in. He says, racking his brains. I want to say Chicago Chicago. Yep. Good. I'm glad so glad I got that right? You have never played it Ian and Sarah, very happy with you as an adult. One of the things I wrote down in advance.
Yeah. So in Chicago and we actually announced, you know, the the formation of it Pros, a standalone, nonprofit entity, you know, on the main stage and one of the things that we announced at Time. Was that identify us was the home show for ID Pro and that's
been true ever since. Now some of that with with an ID Pro Hat on at the time, was a little bit self-serving in the sense that look, there's this big conference that most of the identity professionals go to. So, why would we go and make another one? Hey, here it is. But what we've done over time is slightly formalized, that relationship. And so yeah, there has been for a number of years now. A professional development sort of topic area or track show which really focuses on war of
the soft skills. So, we've had topics, like, like we mentioned top of the show, right? How do I pitch my project? How do I get budget? How do I manage a team? How do I hire an inclusive way? Right? How do I deal with stress in?
You know, instant response is actually one of the talks this year which I'm really looking forward to, you know, the Just a short flight of that stress when I started interrupt, but I hope that horse person that just has like a picture of a liquor bottle and I, all right, talk over and it's like 30 seconds and as I just kidding, like there's more things, but I think that would be hilarious. We'd open it up, but I digress. Please continue the, let's fly you digress as much as you like,
Jeff, any talks. Yeah. So, so, that is a topic area that is kind of curated within the overall construct of the show, but is is curated And assisted by folks, you know, within ID Pro and then, you know, typically they'll be, you know, some material up the front of the show. So there's the introduction to Identity that we've run for a long time. We get an interesting mix of people and that one, we get people who are just starting their careers.
And we also get, you know, the the fifteen-year-old sort of expert kind of folks, the convergence sitting in the back I think I'm talking about is desperately trying to catch up or, or just want to Heckle. So that one's always fun to go to, right? But actually, I mean, personally, I always find it useful, 8. I really get to go to these things, so I get to see all this
stuff in review up front. But I always find that one incredibly useful because it reminds me of you know, bits of the industry that maybe I'm not directly involved in right now that I forgotten about. And it also keeps me up to date usually with some new stuff. That's coming along, just just enough, so that, you know, I know enough to be dangerous, right? Which for me is is perfect and then there's quite often a social event as well, right?
So I do, I don't know exactly when it's going to be, but I expect that ID Pro will probably have some kind of happy hour or gathering whether its formal or informal. There will be a thing that coalesces right.
In fact I talked about the The sort of newcomers session that we're going to do this year that emerged in part from the conversations that we had in the in the learning the feedback we took but it also emerged in part from a Grassroots effort that took place last year when we were in Denver. When I do pro kind of went. Hey you know we think there's a bunch of new people here. We should try and get together. Some kind of you know, newcomers breakfast.
It's very last minute, very Community Driven effort, you know. Pretty good that it happened. And so sort of you know it's nice to be able to take that and evolve it a little bit and wrap it into the show. Women and identity are going to help us with that as well this year. And so, you know, that brings me
to Wed rate. We've had a close relationship with weird for a long time that relationship tends to be a little bit less sort of formally built into the agenda and some of that is reflective of, you know, the differences between between those two organizations. But you know, will quite often have conversations with worried about. Look, you know that particular speakers we can we can bring in.
They've done quite a lot of work on some of the inclusivity impact of the identity systems that we build, right? So this isn't about the hiring question or the professional development question. It's about the availability of the systems that we've created to ought to allow, you know, access for everybody. And so we've, you know, we've had sessions. That material in the pasta, and that will be similar work going on this year.
I imagine identify this as well. The other thing that we've done with both organizations that we did up front this year and arm is, we did a session in this case, specifically aimed at women and it was reasonably successful. And so, I'm considering whether there are ways we can extend that going into next year about okay. How do you put a proposal into a cfp because Cuz if you've never done that before, that can be a little bit daunting, and it's
made least favorite part, right? Like, it's not easy. I mean, like, I put proposals in, on my own behalf to other conferences, I won't name them on a fairly regular basis and it's, you know, it's nerve-racking, it's like, is this going to work? Am I doing the right thing? So, if I answer the right questions the right way, have I have, I optimized my chances of being selected, right? As A human reading it or is some a I sort of just don't know.
We can get into that conversation a bit but you know, it's it's tough, right? And so we thought, well look and this was an initiative that really came out of of ID Pro. And we're together saying, look, you know, we'd like to try and do something that's, that's aimed at that audience. So let's, you know, let's put something together. Let's do a presentation. Let's try and see if we can
improve that experience. Like, I say this year, particularly for, for women Wanting to put proposals it and then we'll look and see if there are ways that we can extend that going to next year. Now, there are, of course, plenty of other both industry associations and professional organizations that we have varying degrees of relationship
with. And the way that they get embedded into the event, then, you know, varies depending on who they are how they operate, what they're you know, relationship with the industry is what the relationship the show is all of those things. Things, right? So and that ranges from, you know, the sort of obvious standards or at least technical organizations, like Fido like oh IDF like Cantara, like away X, and so on, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention the idsa, which is a little different.
But again, you know, very involved, very present in the industry. I think. Every single one of those organizations is going to be identical. Us this year. But more importantly we engage with them, not just for the conference, but actually right through the planning process through the year. And that some of those conversations is what then helps inform rate. What do we need to be thinking about in the agenda? What are we looking for in the cfp?
Are there some things that just don't have a place to live in the way that we currently construct the agenda that we need to add or extend or consider for the main stage in some way because they don't that they're not there yet but we need to get there over time. Time kind of thing. So like I say it's flexible and varied and I think there are other organizations that will increasingly start to build
relationships with. In fact, you know, we talked actually, we didn't talk about professional certifications, right? So that's obviously a space that it Pros increasingly playing in, but lots of people in this area have got one of the is e squared. Certifications right? Lots of people have one of the Privacy ones from the IEP. So actually Claire also use the CEO the executive director over at AC Squared is going to be on
the stage this year. And you know talking a little bit about some of her perspectives in in connection with that, you know, what is the chief identity officer look like conversation, right? So I think that will be really interesting to get that perspective. We've got a number of Of folks involved both on the committee and in the agenda who've got privacy. Qualifications of fact, I do. And so I expect that that's relationship, that will continue to develop with the IPP over
time. We've had, you know, I sort of I made a note that I then ignored upfront to say and I will now say it, which is, I was slightly hesitant to start naming organization so I'm bound to forget somebody, right? So it's our, if it's a hazard of a Of the medium, right? It is, you know, it's a little bit like the Oscars acceptance speech, isn't it? But that's what we try and do, right? It's a big tent.
Everybody is welcome. And then from an agenda, standpoint, and it sort of strategic direction for the show standpoint. We try and I say, we, you know, The Advisory Board in the content committee. Try and Garner as much input as we can from all of those sources whether I named Add them, or not to try and make sure that we are as directionally representative as we can be whilst recognizing that we've only got four days and it's not possible to run the
thing for 24 hours. So, you know, it's kind of, its kind of limiting but we try, maybe that's the next big idea of some sort of like, identity, circus, or theme park or something. It's open year-round. All the vendors from Are there everybody can kind of come and go as they please? I imagine it'd be maybe a maybe it's you know, a VR theme park or some sort. I don't know if that'll be all primary topic for next year. The identity circus, I can I can see it.
Now, the last time we talked identify verse was with you was episode 149 and we asked you a question? What's the difference between digital identity? And I am and that spawned into one of our most? I do fun / controversial. /. I don't know what to call it episodes which is episode 51 where we took that question? And we asked a whole bunch of people in a lot of people who are listeners of the show you know kind of names industry that
kind of thing. What is the difference between digital identity and identity and access management? We got a whole bunch of different answers and you know I want to give credit where it's due. It started here when a conversation with Andy and you know what does that mean? I'm curious. How do you define the two? Now that we're a year later? And I don't know if you've had a chance to go.
Go back and you know listen what other people have said, you tell me since you're the one who started this problem, what is the difference between digital identity and identity and access management? Is another thoughtful, pause there for everyone. Thank you. That's, I'm good at that. It's just don't say anything for a minute. Um, so yeah, you know, I for one, I'm kind of amused about, I don't know whether to be amused or gratified, or embarrassed that I seem to have started a
thing. I didn't necessarily mean to start a thing. But, II. Don't think that my perspective has necessarily changed, right? So, I saw some of the back and forth about this and I take it as ever been British. I take, I think everybody's right, right. But I do think that there is A breath that is emerging to the industry that I don't think we've necessarily thought about before, right? So for me I am tends to be focused on what I would call a set of Infrastructure capabilities, right?
And I say that absolutely in a broad and positive sense, right? It encompasses all sorts of things like authorization authentication and Federation and SSO and Wham and you know what didn't I just say provisioning and IGA and all of those things. Things. Right. What's emerging again from my point of view, in my perspective is that there's a whole bunch of stuff around. The the identity verification identity, you know, trusted tributes. I'm going to say trust Frameworks.
I don't know if we're playing a drinking game yet, but that feels to me like it's going to replace blockchain as being a thing where you have to take a drink every time. Somebody says it, right, trust framework off we go. But, you know, it's it's a thing and they have value and schemes and all of those sorts of things you look at what's happening with mdl, you Look at what's happening with, you know, that
the wallets. Sorry, that's this is hard to say as words as opposed to having it sort of written down so you can see where the apostrophe is. So the various wallet initiatives. There we go. And a lot of that is not stuff that would traditionally fall into that that the scope the
Ambit of I am right in my mind. Digital identity is a little broader than that and I think it's increasingly important for us as I'd only professionals to recognize that and back to an observation that you made you know, towards the top of the show jeff which Chiz. Understanding that we need to increasingly talk to people and engage with people who do not have identity as a background or even don't have a technical background, right? And help them understand where
we fit into their world, right? That's the shift that I think needs to happen. In fact, I've been involved in a project in with my, you know. Me as a consultant hat on for the last. I want to say three months or so and it's one of those things where predictably I can't talk about the details. I'm going to have to hand wave virtually and and orally around some of the topics.
But you know, essentially a project to help some folks you know kind of understand where some of these these broader scale digital identity initiatives, you know, verified anywhere, that kind of thing. Uh is going to fit into their world and had lots of great conversations with the technical folks that was fine. And then we got a couple of
folks in the room. If you did not come from a technical background, didn't come from, I'd any background in particular, smart people, but they hear a word like You know, authentication user arrived at the site and they authenticated and in their head, what that means is that the service provide a new who the person was. Now. We know he says gesticulating wildly at Jeff on the screen, we know that that isn't what
authentication means. But were increasingly having to be very clear when we go talk to people about what it does mean. And so I think for me that's really what this is about is digital identity. Is more than just the infrastructure, it's a whole bunch of new things and a whole bunch of new audiences that we got to go and engage with And I think we need to recognize that. Understanding the context in the audience I think is a big part of that conversation.
I've noticed a shift in just the way that I even I talked about any management over the last few years where I felt like a few years ago you could be maybe a little looser with your language. Okay. We're kind of talking about this thing and you know, it's kind of nebulous and we're kind of that. I find myself having to be a lot more precise with my language based on who I'm talking to you.
Because if I, if I say okay well yes they authenticate it and I'm talking to Scott McPherson. I'll have to happen but they do what were the factors but a little. All right, I'm talking to a CIO or an executive or someone without, you know, that kind of context background. They probably don't care, right? They don't. Was it secure? Did it happen was the customer was the employee happy where they would go through a lot. Great, I don't even know the details on that side.
So I have seen that that shift over the years. You mentioned a fennec 810 occasion and I want to start to wrap things up here because I've been really generous with your time. I feel like we've solved with education. We fixed it. We're done. House keys are a thing Fido has done a great job of getting all the major players on. We don't have to worry about anymore. So what I'm thinking next is, what is our next
thought-provoking conversation? Very much along the lines of, you know, the difference between a digital identity identity access management. So what is something that you're thinking about like from a next perspective that we should be asking the questions? Yeah that's it. That's a really good question. I'm sitting here thinking get with an equation is dead low-middle Federation. Um so so like I I take your point Absolutely right.
I think, you know In fairness. Yeah, there's a lot that we've quote-unquote sold, authentication, getting it deployed, getting it out there. Getting people to use these new systems and be comfortable with them is a journey, right? I'm not great at predictions. That's one of the reasons why going to Vegas, doesn't really work for me because I am not going to be gambling, but but the food is good. Yeah. Yeah, but I it's at least in my view a five-year problem if not right?
So and I think it's also fair to say that there are still lots of conversations going on about some of the details underneath things like passkey, right? We're okay. Yeah, for this 80% use case, it's great. Here's a twenty percent use case that actually kind of matters because it's in a regulated industry. And how do we deal with that? And what is the user experience look like? What is the user experience?
Look like if you're, you know, No, on an old device versus one of these shiny new things, you know, what's the user experience. If you drop your phone in your beer, you know, that kind of thing, right? So there's a lot still to be done, but it's very you get suspicion. Suspiciously specific example in what I just never happened to me, but I've seen it happen to other people heard about it, right?
Yeah, okay. So, you know, I think there's a lot still to talk about there and in fact, we've got, you know, as it happens. And honestly, dear listener, this was not a fed question, right? But we do have a number of sessions on exactly those topics
that identifies. Having said all of that, I think a shift that I think, and I think a number of people on the content committee thought that we'd started to see not just in the call for presentations but actually in some of the conversations that we're having around the edges of stuff is that authorization which has been like hesitate to say this and get a bunch of people bent out of shape, but a little static for a while, right? I think we're starting to see a
sudden. Even sudden is not the right word, eight gradual, but increasing. Focus on. That area, right? It's almost as if now I figured out good ways and safe ways to get people in the front door. Now, I've got that put to bed, let me make sure that they can only get into their own hotel room. He says, stretching the analogy to Breaking Point and not into anybody else's, right? I think there's some interesting activity going on there.
I think there's a bunch of interesting questions to be asked maybe a standards level but particularly our product level around, how do we integrate things like Verifiable credentials into those flows. There's a real thinking that needs to get done there. And the other one that's come up in that regard is Some of the mmm, more challenging use, cases around delegation with real-world identity, right?
So in a lot of places, a lot of countries around the world, we've now got a bunch of stuff going on with age, estimation age verification, right? Very sensible. Very good, very fine. But a lot of the legislation and the regulation that's being developed quite understandably as sort of slightly shied away. From the complexities of, I'm a say a parent or Guardian managing this and access on behalf of a child who is of age XYZ, right?
How does that? Now, these are questions that we've been talking about in the industry. A long time, but back to the previous sort of segments of conversation. Not everybody else has, right? And so it turns out that there's a little bit of Education that we probably need to do. But there's also probably some things that we haven't thought about all that aren't yet baked into the technology. And I think that's really gonna hit us particularly in in that authorization space.
So I mean, that's where it gets critical. So there's right for me, I think that's going to be really interesting getting into into next year. I agree. I think this is another Universal topic, right? Everybody struggled with authentication, is it fixed? No, I was being kind of tongue-in-cheek before but it's getting better, right? We're starting to see really significant progress and making it a better more secure user experience.
The authorization is another one that a lot of organizations struggle with, I don't know how many companies that I talk to. They're like, oh yeah, we're trying to do row base. Access Control. Oh my gosh. Okay, congratulations. And I'm sorry, it is very difficult to do that. And we've seen a whole bunch of the use, like, you know, X BAC, right? Roll are back a back P back. I don't know, there's probably a one for each kind of back that's out there.
Now we're standing see things like zero standing privileges, right? All this is doing with authorizations and things like that. So I think it'd be interesting to see how the market the industry and sort of the thing. Around this starts to fine-tune that I love that analogy, right? We've got a front door. I'll take it instead of the hotel. Like, okay, now we've got him in the house. How do we make sure that I go and get my medicine cabinet?
All right, we're going to the liquor cabinet or if they are allowed, you know, can they get is that sorts of things? I think that's really kind of a natural evolution of that. All right, we're running over an hour now, but I want to, I want to end on a lighter note. And here's my question for you. This is not indicative of our guests any way, shape, or form. But let's just pretend End. You are a thief that steals only things that caused a minor inconvenience to your victims.
What do you steal? So this isn't we're talking, we're not talking like Grand Theft, you know homicide. But I like that it's got to be something that's very you know very inconvenience is like oh that's super annoying. What's the thing that you steal? This is Jeff trying to end the light in them first so you know, that's that. It's an interesting one, I think. I can think of all sorts of things but I think the one that would that's small but would work me.
Certainly I have run into this, not not through Steph but through let's call it user error. So if you're a, if you're a Mac Book user, you may remember, or in fact, have yet again, the wonderful magsafe power connector and they switch from like a 4-pin to a 6 pin or a 6-pin 25. I can't remember which way around it was and you could get this Fantastic. Little adapter, right? That solved. All your problems and meant that you could use the old charger
with the new thick. Yeah, I would steal that. If you found there the the gaping hole in the armor of the Maco world and dongle life is, as we like to call it. I think that's a good one, you know. I thought about this question myself is kind of sit here
recording. And, you know, I think of things like, you know, stealing someone's chapstick, I'm thinking of something a little more nefarious, a very specific, I'm going to take a couple pieces of a Lego or a puzzle set or something like that that you cannot finish whatever it is, you're trying to build without that piece, that's evil that went to see. And the worst thing about that is I actually know how to solve for it as well. Which would require me to go buy a 3D printer, right?
Exactly. Oh yeah. How many people have come across? Right? You're doing a puzzle, you're playing a game or something, right? And there's just that One piece missing or two or three, you know, and here's the thing. As I wouldn't take the last piece, I would take like those. The piece that's like five or six away from the end and really make a devious, that's the way I would do it. Yeah. Now that's, that's, that's Machiavellian. I think in its quality job. Thank you.
Thank you very much. I will take that as a compliment and how it's not every day that I get to use the word Machiavelli and so this is true. I think that might be the first time actually on the show. So that'll be a tidbit for Jeopardy, when When will you become a Jeopardy question at some point, the future and even really great. If your time, I'm gonna go ahead and wrap things up here. I dunno versus coming up, May 30th to June 2nd. It's at the Aria Resort and Casino in Las Vegas.
I will be there and you'll be there. Jim, theoretically be there, so we're hopeful, you know, come on up, introduce yourselves. You know, we love to engage with folks out there and talk and just have a conversation about whatever could be about Identity or it can be about, you know, my Terror. Ville stealing of Lego and puzzle pieces. That would really, you know, piss people off. Don't forget about our identity
versus registration code. The discount 20% off its ID V Dash icen 23, it'll be on our show notes, you can always reference there. Thank you again. Andy and CRA for hooking us up with that and hooking our listeners up that. So hopefully people are able to take advantage of that we'll have links to identify first.com in our show notes, hindle consulting.com, connecting, Andy LinkedIn, and obviously can connect with Jim. And I, whenever you want, we're on the web.
Idac podcast.com, or on Twitter at, idac podcasts, run, Mastodon. Even at idac podcast at infosec got exchanged. So, don't forget to check us out there and be sure to like subscribe, write a review, all that stuff, totally helps us and really keeps us encourage you keep putting out content. Real quick question for Andy. What are your thoughts on Mastodon? Are you on Mastodon yet? I am, I have just like two days
ago set. Myself up to not ask me what my thing is, I'll give it to you afterwards, and you can stick it in the, in the show notes. I honestly can't remember. But yes, I am, I think, you know, it's, it seems like a healthy place to be for. Now, I'll be honest and say my, you know, I'm not a huge social media person, right? I do LinkedIn, a little bit more than anything else, but, yeah, I'm there. I know, lots of people are as
well. Yes, I shall. I shall lick you up and we can we can connect and toot at each other or whatever it's called. It is a very weird thing. Yeah I'm glad you mentioned the the difficulty in Reading. That's my biggest problem with Macedon is is I don't feel like it's a very user-friendly experience. You have to know not only now that, you know the name but which server are you on? It just makes it another. Another problem to be solved at some point anyway.
Okay, there. I go digressing again. All right, we're going to go ahead and wrap it up. Thank you very much. Andy for being special, guest co-host with me. This week will have Jim back on in the future. Don't worry, he's not going anywhere. He's just on assignments. So thanks for listening. And we'll talk with everyone in the next one. Thanks, everyone bye. You've been listening to Identity at the center.
We hope you've enjoyed the show, make sure to like rate and review and we'll be back soon, but in the meantime hit the web Site at identity at the center.com and find us on Twitter at, idac podcast. See you next time on identity at the center