You're listening to the identity of the sender podcast. This is a show that talks about identity and access management and making sure you know who has access to what let's get started. Welcome to the identity the center podcast I'm Jeff and that's Jim hey, Jim khf. How are, you know, not so bad yourself.
Good good. I've got a lot on my mind these days, there's a lot going on in the world right now and I think a couple of the key topics for Our Generation to kind of figure out and I don't know if we'll figure it out, but it's one of the biggest undertones is around free speech and privacy. And the reason why Why I tied those two together is because I think that there's some kind of trade-off, right. There's is not most people aren't black and white about the
topic. Like I want 100% free speech, no controls at all. Because the other side of that is there some speech that can cause you know, Clear and Present dangers and the same thing with privacy it's like yes I'm willing to give up some privacy to get some services. But I'm not willing to go up on my privacy and it's not like, I'm not willing to give up any data about myself.
And so, you know what I wanted to pose to you is where are you on the Spectrum, in terms of privacy, how much of your private data? Are you willing to give up to get Services? It depends on the value of the service. And then, you know, Google Maps
for example. I'm okay with location on that because it's so helpful for Driving when it comes to navigation, sharing location with friends or family or things like that, I don't know if it's necessarily a black and white decision because every service has its own value, they might think it's more important, that it really is to me as a user. And there really isn't a lot of discussions sometimes on what you can. And can't, you know, switch on or off from a privacy standpoint.
It generally the services are like, well it's either all or nothing or more than you'd want to give up. Exchange for that service. So I would say I'm pretty average sure I give up some modicum of privacy but I try not to be too crazy about it. Just you know hit allow on everything that pops up on my phone you know asking for things like oh does it does my calculator really need to take pictures? Probably not. So yeah that's that's something here.
More on like the Android side of things Android apps doing like accept the permissions and and things like that but I think that's kind of where I fall on it. At least from my perspective. Yeah, I kind of feel like that the next question is, like, what is the role of government in terms of regulations for how much privacy should be controlled by those laws and regulations?
I think, you know, in your PPI GDP are much more restrictive in terms of privacy and they wind up, you know, pulling big Tech into court and trying to control it a lot more and the United States. It's less Rolled and kind of Taken like a state-by-state approach, which makes things very complex for companies to figure out. Okay, you know, how do I deal with these things?
But I think one of the things to me, that's most annoying when it comes to privacy, is things like when you go to a website and it says, except our privacy policy. In other words, you cannot get access to their service, their online service, unless you accept. Kept the privacy policy and then you go and you click into it and it's like, do I really want to read this? And for some Services, you really kind of don't have an option.
So if you have to go online to pay your utility bill or to manage your utility bill, you know, you pretty much just have to accept that privacy policy. I kind of the option you can show up that at City Hall with a Jar, full of pennies and path, that way, right? I mean you're you're Oh, making a choice though, right? If you want to go online and have like, online bill pay. That is a choice, you're making. But as I don't have to share, is that, is that fair or something?
But I think, no, I think that's the root of the discussion. I think, what do we want? This is our society collectively, right? What do we want from, you know, these Services, right? I mean, you know, just because ConEd might be my electric company. They didn't invent electricity and they don't. And I have, I have to have electricity.
That's a certain scenario and I picking up the utility scenario because you really don't have much choice if you want to have electric in your home, but to use their services. And yes, you could go down there with rolls of pennies to pay for the service, but that's not realistic. So in other words, your Kind of forced by. You want to have a normal life to accept privacy policy and then they can they can take your data now, we're talking about services like Facebook or something like that.
I think now you've entered a different territory because that's truly an optional service. In most cases, there are some cases where maybe it's not, but you know, this is Jim McDonald's own idea, right? And I'm going to throw it out there that I think there should be Classification standards for privacy policies and a company should say should pick one of those privacy policy.
So, rather than saying you need to read our privacy policy and they could stick one sentence somewhere in the privacy policy that you don't like that. They have to comply to one of whatever it is, 45 standard, privacy policies and then most people can kind of understand. Okay, what are those four or five privacy policies? And they come to can say, we're following number 4. I mean, I think a standardized privacy policy would be helpful, but I don't think it's conducive
to the way that the u.s. is run. You'd have 50% of the population but yes, 50% pappu say, no and nothing would happen. So I do think I do think maybe it is somewhat crazy but not because it's like a crazy idea just because that's the state of government in the u.s. at this point that's the way I'm looking at it. Yeah. Well that is pretty much the state of everything right now, right? But imagine if you had to like a
standardized template, right? Sort of like a Bill of Rights for a consumer to be able to easily understand what it is that they're getting in exchange for what it is. They're giving away for that right? Instead of you have like these stupid and user license agreement that pop up that are written and you know, legalese and lawyer speak and hide all kinds of weird terms and conditions on the inside that, oh, you can opt out, but it's on
page. 74 this tiny little checkbox right or you Have to like, write in a letter. It's like, opt out at something, like, I'd be totally in favor of like, simplifying that quite a bit, but this is a very litigious Society. Remember, like all the years, you've been an it and how many eula's end-user license agreements, you've clicked accept and didn't read, you've agreed to those contracts and I think with privacy policies, the same thing, happens all the
time. We just don't have time to read everyone. Well you know what losing you know, we've been talking about MFA, right? And my face, Pam, and this fatigue that comes with, you know, always having to like approve these messages on my phone to push notifications. Like, I know it's not me and it was not me trying to get in but invariably some percentage of population Just Hits allowed because they get tired of it.
That is exactly what we do with you was like 20 years ago at some point, we got tired of it and we just clicked accept and we want it right on through. So now we're doing the same thing with I know what, LMFAO fatigue or push notification fatigue, or whatever it is, but we've talked about it a few times on the show. Why don't we pivot? Well, let's I want to get to our main topic, which is voice Biometrics a couple of housekeeping things.
Before we do get started, though this is a second last show of the year for us. So we're going to take a few weeks off for winter. Break 2,700 minutes of podcasts went out this year, so I think we've earned a little bit of
time off to kind of regroup. We are working on some pretty cool stuff for 2023. So we'll hit episode Red pretty early on I think probably like February maybe March at the latest I would imagine at this point we got some conference things that were working on so definitely, you know, people stay tuned with that hit that subscribe or follow button. That totally helps us out, you know, it's a free way to basically support the show so that is highly encouraged.
I've got to tell you a quick story. So I was in the airport the other night and I was talking with Wayne and somebody was like like He's dropping on her conversation. I mentioned to Wayne about the the podcast and so this guy turns around sarcastically off the podcast. I spent like 15 minutes explaining the podcast and he was like all he wanted to find it on his podcast app and everything. He's like, I'm gonna listen, I'm gonna listen, I'm like all right great leave us a five-star rated.
He's like, well I'll have to listen to podcast first. Well, yeah, I was like, oh yeah. Well, you just took him for like 15 minutes. I time, dude. I think you owe me something. Yeah, leave a rating. Five stars is always preferred. You know, if you hate it you say I really hate it a lot. It was five stars worth. I hate that's fine too, right? I mean, either way is good, but yeah, yeah, follow subscribe, so pick.
That's kind of issue. We have two stats last time, but, like, less than half of people who routinely turned in or actually subscribe to just tune in and hear our drivel every week. So why don't we get to voice Biometrics? Because they think that's kind of where we want to take the take today's conversation. Especially some of the areas around privacy concerns. That kind of Jim brought up, but voice is a big part of that as well, but I think just the technology in general is pretty
cool. I actually rolled it out two decades now. Well, 15 years ago, let's call it. It's kind of my first foray into that area and I'm really happy and excited that we're able to have our guests on with us. She is melting men. She's a program director with Booz Allen Hamilton and a voice biometric and an identity Zealot. So welcome to the show, Mel, thanks for having me. Yeah, so, You for taking the time, it's a Friday afternoon
and this is going to go live. Mondays is going to be kind of a quick turnaround for us. And I think one of the things that we always like to find out the first time we have someone to show is sort of their career Journey especially when it comes to sort of the identity work and maybe even specifically The Voice Biometrics tough, which you've really kind of specialized in it sounds like how did you get to where you are? Is this, is this identity and
Biometrics area? Something that you chose? Or did it Choose You? Little bit of both. You know, I was in the identity space. I'm a lot older, I think than you guys but I started my career about 33 years ago and almost immediately jumped in. After my webcasting phase don't judge.
It was a good one back then but then I kind of got my foray into IDM identity, access management and I loved it but the more I got into it the more I was able to see through Less than always legal means the user names and passwords and eat including MFA.
They just start cutting. They're not they're so easy to break and I don't mean that for everybody but the hacker community in the black hats around identity it's super easy to break pretty much anything that's out there today until you talk about Biometrics and you know obviously iPhone or Apple. Came out pretty staunchly with facial Rec.
I know I'm sure every one of us is done the facial dance or you're trying to get the face and then you have to do the iris dance and you know, it just wasn't, it wasn't feasible and mass use and so VB voice Biometrics became hot for me. As I saw that there was a lot more that could be done with voice then just Identification. So obviously that's the impetus behind the explosion of VB, but where science has at the science Community has evolved it got super sexy.
So I rode that I'm all about the super sexy. So yeah, we are absolutely and You know, I know we're going to get super deep maybe we can start a look, you know, at the basics of kind of, for those who aren't familiar with how voice Biometrics Works, how does it work? But then take us all the way to that privacy topic, that was bringing up, like, is my Amazon Alexa spying on me, but let's not go there yet. Let's start with the, you know, has Voice. Bio generally work.
So spoiler alert. Yes, it is. Secondly VB is it's a very slick process. There's lots of variations and how you can deploy VB. There are lots of various models, there's a lot of different approaches, there's just all kinds of options depending on a multitude of factors. As you would imagine with any technology you got to understand the business requirements that are supporting the operational or the mission goals that VB needs to support.
Port. And then based on that, there are actually options now although you wouldn't think so, given a lot of the banks and such or still retaining audio and they're still leveraging capabilities that are almost as old as I am. And so things have evolved. If anyone in the fence serve Community is paying attention. Things have evolved. Take a second. Look at where VB and and Biometrics are today for identity management and fraud. Prevention. Okay, so you said the Alexa is spying on me.
What does that mean? Are they just trying to gather? Okay, this person needs to go and buy some new, you know, some new cups and coffee mugs or they actually like, looking for things and Reporting them to the police. Yeah, so I mean they're obviously capabilities in the intelligence community and the federal government levels that are looking for Words keywords that, you know, your phraseology and the mix context in which it's uttered.
But that's not really the job of Alexa as you guys were talking about earlier, the whole privacy bit and there's a lot of trust right now. On the containers or the the holders of your private, your pii, your personal, identifying information and your you got to trust and right?
And it's even devoid of having some sort of, Bill of Rights for consumers, or what have you you literally could end up as the South Park episode, where their Human Centipede or you are truly being protected by the audio and the use of it that's being captured. Mel, I kind of Wonder like, you know, I think one of the voice applications I use the most is Siri right? The Apple version of boy's voice recognition and I can't believe how bad it is sometimes.
So it is what does that mean indication of? I mean is an indication of like it could be improved, or is it an indication of just like some of the basics of different people talking differently? So it's the it's their Universal Baseline model which is one of the it's like the transmission of voice Biometrics, right? And so the more understands and how they are, if they are, which I'm sure they are.
But I don't have specifics. But as long as they're applying Ai and ml outside of what a white paper refers to it, as if they're genuinely applying learning capabilities to their Baseline construct, then that will get Mm better over time but it's further than where they are, right? Because, yeah, it's pretty bad. You shouldn't have to repeat
yourself. Their capabilities that are being used in the Department of Defense today and in the Department of Homeland Security, where lives depend on the efficacy of that voice capture in the translation of it. So the technology is there, it just has to be committed to by the Vidor of the service and I don't want to, I'm not slamming them because it is a costly Endeavor, but the fact that it already exists, makes it less costly.
You don't have to go create it, and it's a diverse build thing. And, you know, they have lots of tncs things to consider. But yes, you are being spied on, but it's so I never really did address, why, right? So it's not just to learn and evolve their capability if they're smart, which I know at least one of the large Voicebank holders is, they are turning you into a predictive marketing machine, right? So that's how they make their money is through advertisers
services. And Licensing is never where the money's at. It's always in the services associated with it. So they make Bank cold hard money from the ability to predict what Jeff Steadman is going to buy after he purchases that tent? Is he going to be looking? For a camper, is he going to be looking for a place in Arizona, right? It's an amalgamation of what you're buying and how are you searching? And what are you all totally doing with it? Are you a giver meeting
Charities? What do we serve you to make our platform? The most valuable to our advertisers as we possibly can? So do they want to know that you know you yelled at your wife and no, they don't. Are that, although, that audio is absolutely there. You can go here it on all platforms. You can go and hear all of the audio that's been captured and delete it, but that doesn't mean that it's being triple deleted on there. And so it, once it's out there,
it's out there. But you can hear what's being saved from your utterances. I feel like that this is where the Ron Swanson death of him learning what a computer does and then him just walking out to the dumpster and just throwing, let's give her the doctor is where that might be.
That's very um, yeah, I mean, I think people, you know, if the product is free, you're the product is kind of some kind of way to look at it is, yeah, advertising, I'm sure I'm lumped in with other folks, and it's just another key metric around. Well, Jeff just by guitar and he's trying to learn how to play. And, you know, if you are video with me, you can see there's one of the background, I am I Suck.
So, but at some point, I'm probably gonna be looking for lessons or maybe a guitar, sand or guitar picks, right? And I'm in a certain age range. All of these are data points that come together to kind of formulate, who is what is this entity look like, and the voice Biometrics that I'm providing. Whenever I talk to Siri Google, I'm sure you just activated a bunch of stuff out there, right? Alexa, whatever may be all feeds into that. What?
I find a little bit interesting is At this point, we've got Siri at least in the consumer side of got Syrian, we've got Google, it sounds like a Lexus. Having some issues because Amazon is reading articles about how Alexa is not doing great and they may shut that down or pair of back considerably, Microsoft got out of the Cortana game a while back. So I don't either winners and losers already in this space when it comes to the voice side. Not really. I think it's more the value prop ride.
So they're not seeing a Lot of Roi on the invoice, the Investments they've made in their voice capabilities. Primarily because in my never humble opinion, they missed the boat on why to do it to begin with, or if you're doing it while you're doing it for its initial intended, purpose, expand your purview beyond what you operationally decided to invoke or that led you to invoke the use of Voice or the creation of that capability and they miss the boat.
So I don't necessarily say it would say that there's a player. It's the how, right? So you could it's like I would liken it to you. Could find a bazillion, really good C sharp developers but if they don't know architecture, you're not going to want them to build to be some. It's very, it's a really crappy analogy.
I'm trying to give a better one, but my point is that It's about Who and the experiences of the deployer and there are lots of algorithms out there and they have multiple purposes and they serve better and different options to the point that there's now multi algorithmic Fusion, where, you know, there's these eight algorithms, that nail it for most of your Universal Baseline population, and then you put them together. And then you, you lesson, And lessen, your false, your
duration. It takes to authenticate your duration to time is money, especially the call centers, right? It's like what? I think the industry standard is a dollar, something a minute, that's insane. Your Roi is sucked up the minute, you get a dumb customer, right? Are you good? And I Karen. I think there's none of those out there and, of course not. But when you get those, their profitability in the cost to do
business is Trashed, right? So they have to look at all the different scenarios where they could salvage or expedite or minimize that unpredictable expense Associated. So, let me pivots like slightly because I want to talk about deep fakes. And how does that impact things like voice Biometrics? And we've seen a lot of news headlines around it, you know. I think the whole Jordan Peele Obama saying, what you know, was was popular. I don't know, it seems like 10 years ago.
It was probably like to How impactful are deep audio fakes to the efficacy of trying to do, you know, strong identification or authentication through voice biometric. So right now that there's a lot of dependencies there, that's a loaded question but to date it is absolutely avoidable as the Technologies evolve for deep things, especially around audio.
It's going to be tough. So the industry needs to be Typically Progressive in figuring out how to stay in the proper place for the betterment of black hats and convert them. That's all I can start converting them now so that, you know, as this evolves or there because I would say, we're probably at a, at most three to five years threshold to somebody being able to have an epic deep fake maker.
But We're not going to be able to contend with, so that's kind of why the Department of Defense and DHS are evolving Beyond a single biometric. So while VB is absolute, there's so many things you can do with it when you fuse it with other biometric. Modalities your false positives are almost completely eliminated. I mean, it's measurably significant.
When you talk about Multimodal. But it's complicated you know and if they're not if they're not Progressive enough and their dedication to Biometrics it's a tough it's a tough pitch to make. But once you dig in and you look at the ROI compared to a single modality, it gets much much more palatable of a conversation to have. You've mentioned this concept of fusion a couple times. Can you explain what that is to my simple brain?
No you're fine. So it's really each independent biometric modality being fused together from a score point of view. So I've taken a score say from your voice, I'm taking a score from your facial.
I'm taking a score from your from an old factory biometric and I'm fusing those together to say, either your Bad guy or infusing them together to say this guy could walk through this door without having to present a card without it, which can be stolen without having to do the iris stance or obfuscated with contact lenses or violate. You know, successfully penetrate the security measure. It makes that nearly impossible because you may be amazing fakin one, but you're never going to
be amazing at faking free. So it allows you to set the threshold. For entry significantly, higher thereby, always accompanying, creating a lot more structure and security. You said olfactory biometric. So as at the sense of smell. Yes, it is.
The sense of smell. Okay, this is news to me, I guess, I'm not open my Biometrics game but I didn't realize that that was something that was out there and I, I'm intrigued very much how stinky a person is, no, no. So or what is it, something else UT met. So, it's used for me A lot of purposes, but the, the entree of olfactory came from bombs and drugs. So you have residual that you can't wash off, right?
And so having a dog isn't always possible, who's trained to identify, and it's difficult for them to segment between like, I'm if you followed Casey Anthony that trial where they said the Smell of maggots produce the same smell as a decaying carcass to a dog. So that doesn't happen and all Factory Biometrics. And that's what? What drove the introduction of olfactory Biometrics, but it's super cool because then when you get nervous, you actually emit a
smell, it's a heat sink. There's a heat sink pattern as well that we can look at. So, when we put all that together, we know if you're a nervous wreck, which means you probably did something wrong. Or if you're fixing to come shoot somebody because you've got a bomb hidden in a backpack, you know. So, olfactory has become pretty sweet with identifying bag. There's probably not a whole lot and Industry were that's applicable. I've been like the airports train stations, you know,
Transportation modalities. But yeah, it's super cool, right? How important is the quality of the audio with the identity of the sender? Strive for excellent audio. Yeah but you know, when you're here at the pregame show pregame was it's always many hurdles to overcome. But how important is it that the quality of the input or the recording is at a high level, to avoid false positives? Or is that just a factor if that's a factor you have to contend with it, right?
But it has evolved so far and doing sound separation. And if you're have any familiarity with natural language processing and how far that has come, that's it's giving us a very targeted method of separating sound from voice but in the cases of identifying fraud or Bad actors in certain scenarios obviously in the dod, it's important to hear what's around as much as it is to hear what they're saying, how they're saying it. I'm so quality.
So the give Factor there is I need more audio if it's really bad quality, as opposed to if you're sitting in this scenario where our audio is on fleet, that's right. I can capture you in literally a second half of audio. But yeah, so that's where that is. Now, if you're recording and it's like three seconds in a subway, station is probably, maybe not enough.
Not for one time if you are in and out of different places, like when you call your bank and want to use the audio authentication or the voice authentication, if you've had a cold before and if and of called into the bank, if you have called from a Subway, if you've called from the airport standing underneath, you know, the allowed jet engine it, learns
right. That's the machine learning elements and beauty that is that lays in voice biometric modern, voice Biometrics. So yeah, there's a lot of factors there. Ma'am. I could see you as an expert witness in a trial where you had like three seconds of audio recorded in a subway station and then you start running through the scientific like all right we're 78 percent sure based on this and 48 percent. Sure. Based on this. And therefore, we have a 99% shortness that this is the same
person. Absolutely. So. Okay, well I think we'd beat that one, pretty good but I wanted to bring up kind of in the I am space where I've run into voice Biometrics a few times as like, hmm. I wonder if this would be a good application. I'd like to get your opinion so it's what we call, quote, unquote, the cleanroom scenario.
So it's the idea that we want to Do MFA, but the person who's in the clean room, whether it's, you know, the typical like situation where somebody's wearing like a bunny suit or, you know, potentially it's like in our prison.
But anyway the person can't bring in their phone so you can't send them a second Factor. The question is, is that a good scenario to use voice because my understanding was is that like with a lot of Biometrics you have device specificity right so you have to go through the registration on each device. But with boys the voice is being stored in kind of a central location or the voice fingerprint, which is probably just the number along, no long strand. A am I thinking about this right?
You're absolutely right. And if you're talking about like it, especially if you look at jail or prisons, it's a hell of a use case, right? Because you voices absolutely there. Everybody talks about what you gonna do when you get a deaf person. So I mean not that that happens all the time but there is something to be said about that being a perfect case for Fusion because not only Will you identify you'll be able to tell
if they have bad intentions. So if somebody's coming in and they're hiding something, you know, even the best people readers there's always someone who's going to be better more Charming or more effective at getting something in. That's bad, it's super cool. Use case for biometric Fusion.
So I think that that kind of Central Storage of the fingerprint of The Voice, Just kind of one of the advantages are differentiators between VB and other forms of Biometrics, but I think the other thing is, you know, in a lot of those scenarios. If somebody's wearing a bunny suit right there, they're not going to be able to do a fingerprint, they're not going to be able to necessarily do facial recognition, things like that. So it might be one of the few scenarios where boys are voice.
Might be one of the few options. And I guess what I'd like to also ask is, you know, are there other use cases that you see voice? Use them a lot for authentication? Where it makes sense other than fin serve well. So, so good. Tell me what you mean, by that Financial Services. No, I'm sorry, I need that part. What do you mean in terms of using voice for Finn serve as that? Just like when you call the call center sometimes but like Bank
of America, for example. As doing, I don't know if they have rolled it out, nationally or globally yet, but they've created banking centers that don't have people. So you can literally walk up to a screen that is about below your waist to probably depending on your height. Of course. For me, it's like a foot over my head. So I would say it's probably a four or five foot tall screen with AI, it has an artificial agent, on the other side, and I don't have to authenticate, I
exist. So that I never saw some in the near, the subway stations on Broadway in New York City. There's a couple in Columbus, we're such a test a test Market, it's silly. We get the first flavor of lays when they first release it to see how we do, which can be good or bad depending on all right. Exactly. Cinnamon Toast Crunch flavored Doritos.
No, thank you. Anyways, so they they the use case there is wicked cool because You literally don't have to do anything but walk in and conduct your business. It's a sweet use case if you think about applying that theory to something like Walmart think of how Walmart could use that from a predictive marketing point of view. So they follow a pattern of life, right? Or pattern of your existence throughout a store. They have security cameras anyway.
So use that data, right? So, watch where they're going and what are they buying? And then, Order. And so what would they like Leah by an Impulse buy at the register? Or you noticed when these products are close to these products and this one gets purchased because it's right behind them and increased sales of these items. So it's we got to stop thinking that it's just about authentication. It's about making I'm a capitalist.
Can you tell? It's making money and it's making me. Money more effectively, which would drive costs down. I think the economic ramifications are pretty big. If we get out of our own way and stop worrying about the false connotation of Biometrics, being an invasion of privacy, because it's not, we're not holding your voice. We're retaining your audio. We're triple hashing. Creating a big long. Number that if you stole it, even if I send it to you, you
would not be able. First identify, even that it's yours. All right, so there is no pii involved in. VB it just It Isn't. So once we get out of that and stop worrying about that, then we could talk about what can really be done with by my church soapbox off. So what about scenarios where you definitely do not want to use like the opposite, right? We talked about a couple use cases here where yeah makes sense, you know, prison or a jail or financial services or Or
retail in general. We think being able to walk up and say, hey, I want to know about a quarter pounder with cheese. Only onions and fries and a coke, right? Rather than talking to a person, which appears to be going by the wayside, or going after those one stupid little iPads and keying in your own order, right? The might actually have the order, right? So I'm good right? Yeah, I'm okay with that part 2. But what's the opposite of this? Like, where did where is voice
Biometrics never to be used? I don't think it exists. There's no scenario where it just doesn't make sense, to apply voice Biometrics as part of the authentication string or the identification not for me. Even I like a loud loud. Place quiet place place maybe with a lot of voices like an airport or a subway station. No isolation false, anything like that we already do it, right?
There's a there's an effort that was done by the Air Force and and the Department of Defense is SNT program which is their science and Technology. It's kind of like the evaluation space for the Department of Defense where they literally can authenticate a pilot standing at his aircraft while it's running the they can do all kinds of Funky Cold Medina stuff. Now that I can't think of a single scenario where it would not be a relevant possibility, okay.
How about it might be capable but what point does the cost? The benefit are these scenarios where it's super expensive to have, you know? Okay. Well do we really need to be able to identify a pilot outside of his F-16 while the engines are running? Yes, you can imagine if that's cheap to do not see. It's well that would not be on the heavier side of cost. It's really what what drives cost and biotin voice. Biometrics speed speed to authenticate the thresholds
you're willing to accept. Depth. And then that's about it. That's probably it speed and accuracy or those metrics that a buyer of software can really gauge or get that information from a software vendor. So if I'm in the market for a VB solution, are those the things that I should be looking at and are they metrics that the vendor will Provide and I can rely on their answers. Okay, well I got me until you threw in the end telling the
truth part. Yeah. So I mean there's a lot of variation there too. It's kind of like I feel like I'm not giving you any straight answers but it's true. I mean, when you look at, if you're in the market for VB solution, you need to solidly understand why and what are your requirements meaning like, do I have an alternative flow that It's less expensive if I give up but a percentage or if I require a little slightly longer
elongation of audio acquisition. You got to look at all that before you have the conversations of percentages. But like in a, in a financial entity, you're not going to want anything less than 99.9% by even would prefer a hundred, but 100 isn't gonna happen, but if I can acquire a positive ID, A hundred and a hundred percent confidence in three seconds.
I'm n. But if it's 30 seconds, which I know some banks are still on that old Antiquated technology where I got to run my mouth and tell you 5 times. How much I love my to use my voice as my password. No, thanks. Not going to happen. I'm just gonna hit zero like a vicious lie right that. No, that's clearly annoying but I guess I want a clarification on that. So is it 30 seconds if I know Oh
okay. It's claiming to be Mel dial and so I just have to check this boys against what I know for Mel or is it? You are one of my 200 million customers and now I have to use your voice to figure out, which of those two hundred million customers. Are you therein lies? The rub gym?
That is absolutely. The differentiator algorithmically is inclusionary logic versus exclusionary logic and the voice Biometrics algorithmic approach, It sounds like it wouldn't make any difference but when you look at it scientifically, the data is there that if I already know you exist, like if there was a global voice biometric database of everyone to authenticate anything then it's going to be
100%. Inclusionary logic meaning can I I don't even look to see if you're excluded from the data set. Exclusionary logic is Is where they look at it and say. So can I exclude her from being any other entity than Mel demon and so that algorithmically and how you forge? The process is where that becomes a differentiator so what's next for voice Biometrics? Like what's the cool thing coming up that we need to be aware of so it's here but sentiment and intention are wicked.
And now it's here but it's not widely used yet. I think it's worth looking at. If you're in an industry, there are so many use cases. Where sentiment and phraseology is really under estimated right now. There's a lot of value there even if it's good versus bad or if it's there really irritated or they say they're irritated, they're really not or They make a false claim.
It's not like a lie detector but if you're multimodal fusing you absolutely have a lie detector capability and multimodal fused Biometrics. So it depends on your industry of course. But sentiment phraseology is wicked cool. And that is the factor. Allowing that deception versus well-intended in the Also, the biometric I've kind of seen that that sentiment in some recent Sci-Fi films, and TV shows that it watching.
It's like, you know, you have the scanners, I call the person's lying, just by the way, they're talking, how do you establish sentiment? Like how does a normal person do this? Or is it just the massive amount of data that's out there and correlating it across the other modes? That is not my area of
expertise. There's a couple wicked cool scientists who are doing nothing but that and that the only company I know right now who's really nailing it is next video which was bought by nice systems. They're the only company I've seen that has truly made some strides there and how do you send him outside of the government space? It's used all over and government but for different purposes but the industry talk to the scientists over a next idea. Okay. I think it's probably a show
topic. Maybe 2023 given where we're at right now in the air. Yeah. I think I'm deaf agreed that one out. What about AI when it comes to voice Biometrics? And the use cases, I'm thinking here is data from Star Trek, a walking talking Android that is a, you know, symbol chroma of a human being. Do you think at some point that they would have their own vows biometric? Or would it be maybe something else behind this?
Seems like micro service API calls based on Bluetooth or Wi-Fi. Signals that the robot is generating or things like that, I would. So I would say the capabilities exist today. I know that there's a couple a eyes that are fully functional and can do voice activated things. But I guess the question is should they? And how far do you want to take that? But how that happens, it's going to evolve but at this point I
would say it can be on board. Absolutely, you can have on board until robots, take over the world and we have to all Will Smith mute so there's I don't know. Remember the name of it there's it's all over the place right now where it mostly actually in them and asia-pac region where they're generating whole songs. Whole artists 100% with AI. But I'm too old to remember the name and this is full-on original. I guess. Scores or songs or interesting upgrade.
Yeah, I've seen them do. I've heard my daughter's really into this and I've heard EDM, I've heard an opera singer. The who wasn't really officer was an AI. I've heard, what's that? You said have ever leader Jim. What's the name of that genre of music? Are they country top? No, I didn't hear country. I forget. But it's like an evolved gen Z genre of music. But I forgive you yet, so it's super cool. It's there and it's only going
to get better. This is that is the Fidelity of that audio there or is it still mechanical sounding? Oh, no. Not even a little bit interesting. So I think when the yeah, gotcha, well I think when, you know, You can take data points and big data and crunch it all together. I mean, they already know like beats for a minute what people like and what, you know, how to construct songs, so that people
are attracted to them. Now, take that and start taking what kind of voices people are tend to like and you mix all that together and hit the themes that people like and now all of a sudden you just have an algorithm algorithmically you know made to be popular. Or song or even just customized right to a person's flavor profile. Yeah, now when I like our EDM Jim likes this country, right? We're going to have different opinions over everything at different point. Why you are our own unique
listening sound pattern, right? We could essentially generate audio on the Fly that matches with our mood or whatever our preferences. Our I think that is fascinating. It is fascinating, it's like Spotify unwrapped on steroids basically. Yeah. All right, you we've been talking awful lot here. I want to close out on a lighter note and got a couple options. And the one that I'm going to pick here, is you have your own late-night talk show who do you invite as your first guest
melting? Then it's the melting man show hearing, I don't know every night at end on NBC. Who's your first guest on your new show? Do they have to be alive? No II didn't specify so you can pick. Anybody want really, Jeff? That's hard. I would have like a hundred and twenty people. Pull off the bat that I would say. I want to pick one or maybe pick a wine up two or three guests. All right.
I would want Harriet Tubman because she was a badass, I would want George Washington. And then modern day, I would want. The creators of South Park, Matt. And was that Matt Striker? Interesting. Yeah, okay. That's a lot years. That's a strong opening night, right? I didn't think of historical figures. I my mind went right to Elon Musk. Oh, he's I have such a girl-crush on him. Oh, be still my heart. Yeah, that's that's my choice. What about you Jeff?
Yeah, I'm torn. So I'm going to pick two and cheat. That's why I gave Mel cover to pick whatever she wanted. I'm going with George Carlin. As the opening guess and then Jon Stewart is sort of on the bench there as well. Hurry up, that's who I would start with why I'm a fan of comedy, and I think it would be just a fascinating conversation, given how popular Carlin has been for decades, especially even him and he passed away, you
know, few years back. But he's still such an influence for a lot of comics and a lot of the genres of Comedy that are out there now, feed off of sort of that, you know, not necessarily Political but socio, societal kind of observations and things like that. And I think Jon Stewart took it to more of the political level of it, which I thought was just hilarious. And I can, I could I could watch The Daily Show from from years and years on end.
And Trevor Noah, you know, was his last show was last night, so we were watching that one last night, but I would go with George Carlin and Jon Stewart as the two that I would have on there and then somebody historical. I think would be cool to have like Abraham Lincoln. You know what movie were you gonna go see things like that. What movie? Yeah, movies back then I've got a, I've got a share, my George Harlem story.
So yeah, one of my co-workers 15 years ago or something this guy was hilarious and name was Patrick Gibbons and his father was a drill sergeant in the Marines. So you think like his dad must have Have been some kind of like, you know, jerk like really, like overbearing and I just couldn't imagine because this guy was just so funny. Well, turns out his father, the drill sergeant in the Marines, when he was a kid was best friends with George Carlin.
Nah. Yes. As friends that grew up together and some guy like everything, mr. George Carlin here. Yeah. You know, I guess six degrees. Exactly. I don't have the anti three degrees now, right? Yeah, because I'm Jimmy, right, we're both connected. Yeah. We're not hit the same rank my all right. One of my Idols. So I think I think we'll go ahead and leave it there for this week Mel you been really generous to the time I want to ask for two more minutes.
What is something that people should take away from this conversation about voice Biometrics? If anything going in wrapping up 22 going into 2023, what do I need to know? Biometrics is not a privacy concern. It's not pii. And number two, use it. There's a use case for it everywhere, the end. Okay. Do you need two minutes Jimbo yourself? Final thoughts for this week? Yeah. My final thoughts are, I reached out to Mel on a, you know, I saw her connected to Becky archambault at Gartner.
It didn't know Mel from, you know, anybody else or reached out super awesome person, Person. I think you reach out to her and make a connection. But also, I mean, I would encourage you to take a chance and anybody who's out there who you think you'd like to, you know, make a connection with not to try and sell them something
please. But just to, you know, spark that conversation or be connected and follow them or whatever, go for it. Well, the worst they can do is blow you off or black, you disconnect? Yeah, that hurt over it. Yeah, there you go. No, I think, you know, I think it's okay to ask for help right. There are the problems that a lot of us face especially in any space have probably been solved before.
Right. And then the stronger, your network is the more people, you know, and more people that you, that, you know, and that they know can help you get to that answer quicker, right? We don't need to solve everything for the first time, so yeah, ask for help. I think that's ask for advice, right? See how other people are doing? That's why I'm a big fan of organizations like ID Pro, for example, and the slack Channel
they have, right? And you know, this podcast will bring all kinds of viewpoints, you know, to, to the conscious level. Hopefully, if you're not already subconscious after listening. So, that's, I think, you know, be aware of that. And I think Mel if you're cool with it, we typically will put our guests LinkedIn connection into our show notes. And if they have questions, they can reach out and you know, maybe tell you that you're wrong, or maybe that you're right, or maybe somewhere in
between, right. I've been wrong. It's rare but it happens go to you. If you tell Mel she's wrong, expect a response. Probably a scientific way. Over analysed one. Okay we're gonna go ahead and leave it for this week. Want to thank everyone for listening and you can find us on the web by Danny at the center.com. We're on Twitter so far still at idac podcast and yeah with that we'll go ahead and leave it for this week mellow thanks you so
much for taking the time. Jim as always thanks for the time and we'll talk with everyone. One in the next one. Thanks for listening to the podcast. If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe and visit us on the web and identity at the center.com.