You're listening to the identity of the center podcast, this is the show that talks about identity and access management and making sure you know who has access to what let's get started. Welcome to the identity, the center podcast I'm Jeff and that's Jim. Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you? Oh, not so bad yourself doing great. So I took a picture of the tagline for the octane 22
conference where we are today. It was identity, belongs to you, I posted it to LinkedIn. Ask people what it meant them. I'm hoping that folks can think about that and maybe add a comment to that post. Yeah that is definitely the tagline for here. We are at Octane 22 Death. Want to give a shout-out to OCTA. Definitely hooking us up with this. Nice, little room that we're in. We've got some folks in here.
We're going to in a second but shout out to Aqua team for helping us out and definitely obviously for our SM, for funding to travel. So with that little bit of Blur, by the way, let's get to our guests in the room. We've got Eugenio Pace. He's the president of customer identity at a doctor, a doctor and Chef Ramsay. Who's the chief product officer. At customer identity, at OCTA. Welcome to the show, guys. Thank you for having me.
Yeah, so let's start with shiv one of the things we always like to find it, you know, kind of find out is the identity origin story. So, how did you get into the identity world? Is it something that Shows. Or did it choose you? And we'll start with you, Shiva. Then we'll go to you Eugenio. I mean, I certainly didn't choose identity, that's for sure. And I think I accidentally ended up in the item in the world.
So started about, you know, 15 16 17 years ago, started as an engineer and my first project that I worked on as an engineer was to build a single, sign-on portal, kind of what we take for granted. And we get out of the box today from OCTA, was not the case. So, at the time I was working for Nielsen. This is the TV ratings company, and so, yes, I built the first single sound portal for the field operations team. And so had first-hand knowledge
of building something like that. And so, that's the origin. But over the years, I've just been a downstream consumer of identity information, or I did with it was marketing advertising, cloud computing. And then, about three years ago, you hand your genuine Matthias reached out and said, hey, we're building this thing to solve identity and would love for you to join us on this journey. And I was like, yes. I know that problem because I worked on in many, many years
ago. So, That really helped and that's how I ended up here. So you're my best decisions, isn't it? Great, when you find white people just out in the world it just fit right naturally. And it's like, yes, like we've done. All the difference, makes all the difference for me. Identity is also like a story of identity finding me and Serendipity. I'm a developer. I'm engineer as well. I was working for for Microsoft and Microsoft was working in the in what eventually became.
Microsoft azure. And my job was part of the visual studio team and so tools and Frameworks for developers. And my my boss at the time said, like, you have to go and find anything that stands in the way for developers to build in the cloud and it was like a new paradigm. And so I started doing research, you know, how things are
different. The network the latency, the deployment infrastructure, everything is somewhat different, and I quickly realized that, Identity management was a big obstacle for building in the cloud or moving applications to the cloud. And so the that was the start of the journey and since then, you know, here we are octane 22. So, and you mentioned Microsoft, we've had Vittorio Bertolucci on, on our show multiple times.
He's a friend of the program. I understand you guys wrote a book together which is not something that I think we knew about until literally a couple minutes ago. So what is what was that about? Yes, so So actually my very first conversation about identity was with Victoria and so I still remember Microsoft had this lab building 20 in the
campus. And we had like this, it was an amazing place where you can experiment with technology and brainstorm and I have this vivid memory of having like a wide, I can massive whiteboard in the the great Vittorio style, you know, like, great artistic Whiteboard. And he explained to me, like how mother and identity works and, you know, claims and Federation and how some all worked and ws-trust. And all these protocols that were was an entire world that I didn't know about.
So, when I was discovering this, this challenge, we captured all the challenges in a little book that we call a third. So, So, the writers of the book, was we toriel myself Matthias, the founder of the other founder of a serum and a couple of our other experts in the domain. And we published a book in 2009. It was like a little very popular book, not the New York Times, you know, bestseller list, but not yet. We'll fix that on the shell. You know, it's on Amazon.
And so that was a big success in Microsoft. Because it captured like in a, it was a concise and it was like, I was like, at least of scenarios where identity was really difficult to implement. You know, some sign on apis and these and that was 2009. So I got to ask 2009 how much of that content do you think it's still relevant today? Or has it changed completely that?
You know, that 30% of it is we ignore longer valid or is it less than that of their constants that were Well you know that's a great question because it ties into the timelessness of what we do. The solutions are different and maybe we don't use WS Federation as much as we use it before and maybe we make OCTA. We make some of those things kind of irrelevant because it's not a no, no longer a concern, which is part of our goal is to turn anybody in an expert
without being an expert. But the concepts the architecture are Timeless and it's like those concepts are still, I still send people. You know, if you go and search on stack Overflow, which I every once in a while, I spend a few minutes, you know, going around. I still answer questions on identity and access management with chapters of the book and he said, oh, you know, chapter one, we talked about claims and what do they mean? And I got to tell you, that's
the ultimate copy/paste answer. I've answered the question for ya. Just check out my book. Yeah, well I'm not in your face but that's yeah, it's 22 cents for copy. That gets sold. The book is Free by the way. All right. Download you can download it from for Microsoft. Still today, a PDF, I'll find the link and I'll put in our show notes so people can check it out.
By discrete the 2009 book was a success in 2011 we wrote another edition of the same book which we creatively called Same title second edition. And it was double the size. And in fact, that was the Epiphany for what eventually became zero. So interested in the origin stories but we're here at the conference and so much is being announced, and there's so much change going on so much investment happening in the platform.
What are some of the, the key announcements that came out in the conference this week that you guys are excited about that, you want people to know about. I'll tell you, maybe the higher level of the like the product strategy that we're following and maybe she you can go deeper into this the specific capabilities but the biggest announcement that we made is that we we decided to tackle the market with specialized to
specialized offerings. And so one is the one that we call the OCTA, Workforce, identity, cloud, and the other one is, we're now calling the OCTA customer Entity Cloud, which is essentially powered by the technology that we build are all zero. And so we have these two things, which solve the same underlying problem, which is figuring out,
who is a user and who isn't. But in a way that it's tailored to different, use cases to different buyers to different scenarios and they are, we are focused on solving those really, really well. So that's kind of like the big bigger than Announcement because there's like, there's like a temptation to say, well, its identity. Its authentication is the same thing. For this have one thing that does, it does everything.
And it's like saying, you know, we need a car, you need Wheels, it needs engines in its steering wheels and headlights. But, you know, this minivans, and SUVs and sports cards and Formula 1 racing cars, they all have wheels. But they all have From purposes, and they've been sold to different people. So he is, is the same. The same concept. So, shiv, same question to you? Yes. So I think going deeper into the
customer identity announcements. I think some are obvious that that I think your listeners and even, you will have been following for the last few months. So we announced support Global support for passkeys, which will come in Q2 of 2023. I think this, you know, again, advances over story of providing a password this experience. So I think that's really big and impacts all of us as consumers
at the end of the day. We're also trying to solve for authentication and highly regulated Industries, so think of utilities Healthcare financial services.
And so we announced support for financial grade identity, which is a suite of features and products that are going to be released starting next next year, beginning of Q2 of Next year and is essentially supporting a whole bunch of protocols that allows companies that operate in highly regulated Industries to essentially work with our products because is the extra layers of security and and regulations that they have to adhere to. So that's like a big thing we
and you know, it wouldn't be an identity conference or identity announcement if it didn't include security, right. So security is a big Focus throughout our stack, but Perfectly. And now we announced the sick, the availability of security Center. The idea is basically in a lot of our customers sellers. It's like, you know, I love your products, so easy to use, so easy to get started. But like, how is my identity infrastructure doing it, vis-à-vis security.
And of course, you know initially said, hey you can, you can stream this information, whatever set, cops tool you're using, you know, whether its data dogs, plunk, But a lot of them are like can we just log in to your dashboard and see what's going on with our implementation? And So It Started from that idea, that, that you can have a One Stop Shop from an identity perspective, and you can get all the information that you, that you need.
So that's another big announcement, that security Center. I saw yesterday in the presentation anyway, that you were kind of leading. And I gotta tell you, I'm a stickler for, like, little details, a little flourishes. And for those who haven't seen it, I would This is going to tell you how much of a nerd. I am just the way the chart dynamically updates and has like this subtle shift to the left over time. I mean, just chefs kiss, like, that design is fantastic.
I would encourage people to go check it out. I'm sure there's videos out there and stuff like that, but I did sort of an heiress like I noticed the little details on the design side of things. I was like, oh yeah, this is like, if I were going to design something like that's the way I would watch book, it's really well done. So congratulation, thank you. Thank you. So to really understand customer identity Cloud. I think you have to go back to Canada or In story of auth0.
We'd love to get that as Jeff mentioned we've had Andres Aguilar on the podcast, we've have Vittorio some kind of old school ah zero people but you honey oh since we have you here maybe you can kind of give us some of the history that made all zero and leading into now being part of okhta customer, identity Cloud. Yeah, sure.
Well, I mentioned the book and I, we talked about the book, the second edition of the book, The Second Edition came I'm in 2011, and as I mentioned, was double the size of the original one. And so I kept, you know, I thought we can keep writing about these and hoping people will find the book, it's freeze, a PDF, read the book, and the sandable copy paste, the code in the book into their own code, or we can just solve the problem. And so, I applied for a job inside myself to do this.
To do what eventually became serum and naturally I did not get the job which was probably one of the best gifts. That Microsoft gave me among many others. I'm really grateful to Microsoft in many, many ways but in 2012 my wife in her Infinite Wisdom. She said like well you're gonna die one day regretting not doing this and it's worse to regret something that And doing something and you know, if it doesn't work right and fail, all right, try this.
You try. And so she she really gave me the final push to to leave Microsoft, which was really great for me. It was I was really happy there. And in December of 2012, I gathered the last bit of Courage, I resigned after 13 years at Microsoft and I started at zero with Matthias, you know, one of the other authors I couldn't afford Victoria so you know we couldn't convince him to join right away, but that will take another couple of years but
we did it as well. And so we started the company with the with the goal of essentially saying, let's all the list of scenarios that you read in the book. Let's have them as just like things that you we shape out of the box. And so the in, in March of 2013, we Got our first customer, which I was in charge of sales at that time Matias was building stuff and I was like, you're in charge of everything, right? And so, that's how we split the
our responsibilities. And I had this that time, I, we had this like chatbot on the website and everybody who joined their, I would reply instantaneously. And, and, you know, I knew a few things about identity, so I could provide like this great support and perspectives.
Everybody was very happy with free Consulting and this guy calls me on Skype and you say I want to know how it works and we need a Lil Bit of pair programming and over Skype and at the end of that he say like I want to pay for this how much and have no clue how much you charge him and say well $50 and you say oh yeah that's too much. I'm fine. $50 $50 per month per month. It's Rick / - okay This is scription business that there's the foresight.
Yeah, okay. Good. Yeah. So we negotiated a little bit and we ended up in twenty seven dollars per month. Don't ask me how we ended up on that number, but we have another number, and I was so happy and I was ecstatic, you know, that, a couple months later, we were already had a paying customer and my wife comes and see what happened to say. Well, we sold our first deal. Either, we have a customer paying customer and she asked How much?
How much? Yeah, and I said $27 per month and she said you're going to need a lot of those and she wore gentle pushing. Yes, yes, he keeps me. You know, accountable. But anyway that was the start and a couple months later we just to complete the story we you know, also somewhat serendipitously. A friend of mine was working in a big company. He learned about what we're doing said, oh yeah, this is actually exactly what we need here.
And so we that became our very first Enterprise deal and that was like hundreds of dollars hundreds of thousands of dollars. Sorry. And so we had like the two data points, you know, the developer working on, you know on his own pay-as-you-go you know credit card all the way to Enterprise SC. So security procurement on the other side of the spectrum.
And by, then we knew that we had something real, you know, like we proved one point is appointed, anecdote, two data points is aligned and you already have like a function there and then we decided to go all-in and to grow the company. And investors, get investors, we bootstrapped the company for one year, we go. Investors, we hired Victoria. We had other people to help us, you know, build what eventually became 0 0. So cool. And now you're part of okhta, I guess.
Tell me. How's that been going? It's been a couple of years now, I believe anything that people out there, you know, can take away his fans, kind of like thinking about okay. Well, how has it actually been working? Like is that it's turned the customary, any Cloud, what our lessons learned or are things like that you'd want to share Well, our journey was up to actually has a very long story because, you know, in that year, in 2013, about a half year in between the two deals.
The I got this call from random person that I didn't know, Todd McKinnon and he introduced himself and say I'm tired, I'm founder of okhta, I really like what you're doing and I mean, looking at the website and the content and you should be working with us. And I say, yeah, well that's
very flattering. But you know, we just started, I have one customer or one-and-a-half customers and so we, you know, I declined even the consideration but we remained in contact over here, is over 10 years and then we became friends and you know, we admired each other and we did we solve the same problem, but for different people. For different audiences in different ways and naturally, over 18 years that perspective on the market state.
But what what what didn't change from the very beginning, is that we had the same aspiration of what to build. And so, you know, you heard taught yesterday say, you know, what was, what was? I always confused, like, the two visions because they are almost The same, you know, for us it was secure access for everyone and in Octa is like provide access for everyone to safely. Use any technology. Yeah, they're so they're exactly the same. And so coming together was really an opportunity of
realizing that future faster. Because, you know, if we had gone, our separate ways for five years longer, 10 years longer, we would have been like the true Nemesis like equal. But now, we are an opportunity where we can combine forces, and solve all these problems way, faster than on our own and someone on the outside. Kind of looking in.
When this was happening, it struck me, is how complementary the two organizations were I think at that time, you know, OCTA was kind of known as the workforce. Identity company and off, Sarah was very developer Focus, which wind itself very well to the customer at any side. Yep. And when the news broke, it was like, well, yeah, no duh. But the totally makes sense,
like, why not do that? So it was, it was interesting and to t'pol to follow the journey, and I've had conversations with folks on both sides of this point. Kind of helps us kind of put that into context. So, yeah, it's been, it's been interesting even just from outside. I'm sure there's great stories. And inside, we won't get anybody in trouble or try to put in a comfortable spots, but just as a cat as an observer From the outside in space. It was just like, yeah.
And like, like I said, no duh. Well, he wasn't, he wasn't unusual acquisition to because, you know, you might think. Oh, well, it's a big company, acquiring a small company, but we were not that small by then. And so, we're not the same people start up, octo was 3,000 people. When the acquisition happened, I don't see, there was a thousand
people and so, is it come on? Kind of like, you know, similar Of course, we were like a couple of years behind were not a public company, Revenue was smaller, obviously, but some of the challenges is like how it's a big maneuver, you know. It's not like a small thing with lot of people with a lot of customers and and because we have customers that are were using alt 04 Workforce and doctor had customers using their technology for customer identity.
So, It's like these gray areas and you can make it work. You know, you guys are experiencing this, it's software. If you, like put enough effort on it, you can make it do, whatever. It doesn't mean that it's the right technology for The Right, Use case, or the optimized use case. And so, part of what we're going through in this 18 months. It's like, figuring out our strengths, and our capabilities, or where our technology compliments and we can connect
the dots. And yes over time we will there will be a journey of of not Reinventing wheels and don't need to be Reinventing. And so like an example that I always use is today, we don't pay Amazon 04 or customer identity and Workforce identity. There's one bill, you know, it's OCTA and that gives us this economies of scale as we consume way more and so we have a much bigger bill with a with Amazon but it's one bill That is more efficient than having two
different bills. So just an update on how the Acquisitions going. I mean, is it going as well as you would expect? I mean everything we talked about so far the sound a very positive would and Shiva, you know, question to you as well. How is that acquisition going? Yeah, so I can start, I think the, you know, one of the the things that are going really, really well, honestly is from the product team and the product and Technology strategy that we have, we've sort of kept it intact.
Really, we've made no changes to the team or integrated the team. So why is that important or relevant? It really gives us the opportunity to continue to serve the customers that we want to reserve. It gives you a to accelerate some of the things we want to
accelerate. And it really allows us to enhance the reach in some of the markets that we wanted to get to. Like one example is we were going to vote, we were gonna build solving, authorization is highly regulated Industries but probably would have taken baby
steps to to get there. But now being part of okhta with a global company, no Global sales force, we're kind of accelerated because because those those regulated Industries The customers are OCTA customers today so kind of accelerates some of the market and the product needs that we had to do.
And so, so like I think those are those are some really positive things and then the other area that I wanted to also add in gave us this is now, we're in a place where thinking about what are the things we need to interrupt together like what should be working? Well, Across both clouds. And so, I think you will see over the next few years. Some really exciting things that one very simple example is OCTA, has this workflows had used to have this halves, this workflows
product. The customer is love and we can easily connect you to the customer identity cloud. And now, customers get the benefit of two products that they, they love using. So so yeah, I've been in the customer, I am space for 20 years. I've always Don't like the authentication side was well solved. I felt like the identity management side of consumer, kind of went back to the customer, to do a lot of custom developed applications. Like how do you want to let people register?
If you've got a delegated Administration kind of scenario. Now, the workflows you can let the customer solve that all within a low code no code environment, exactly exist. So I think so, I think there's some there is a lot there including In security and risk signals, obviously.
And I, and if you had watched the, the keynote yesterday, we think we have something unique that we can do for SAS Builders, or SAS application, Builders because we kind of, we now represent both sides of the equation. So you can really accelerate a lot of capabilities and standards. And so, we're just, we're just getting started with that. I'm just incredibly excited about what we can do in the future.
Yeah, very cool also. Ecology like passkeys and you know, you announce Fastpass here at the conference, seems to me that that's not for customer or workforces for whatever wherever you want to use those things, right?
So yes, yeah, I think if you look at like, passkeys, it really should work in any scenario across devices, but there is one difference, which is in a consumer use case you, you know, you really want this ubiquitous access across across all devices, across different browsers in a Workforce scenario, similar. However, I think identity admins or scissors or shears, they mow and I have a little more control
and policies overpass key. So I think there is a subtle difference in the in how we implement it, but both both clouds will be supporting it. And again, it really takes one of the surface areas for a tax, which is passwords away, which which is, which is exciting. So, what's next in the customer identity space? I mean you guys have been doing this for a while. What do you see coming up as okay? Pass keys. Are great, what's next? Now we're going to make things
easier. Better more secure, right? Everything that goes along with that. Yeah, so so I think the there are were watching a few Trends and I'll just talk about to at one. I'm more excited about, I think it has more legs than the other. But the first one is is, you know, there is this decentralized technologies that are building in.
So you hear a lot of noise and and excitement depending on who you ask about web 3. So I think at the very least we want to be a provider that Bridges, the Two Worlds, you know, because I I think we take a position of it's all web to, it's all web or web three. Frankly, the the thing we are here to solve for is, were connecting so many different Technologies and, and products. So it doesn't matter if it's web-one web to web three, we want our stack, our Technologies
work across also bridging. Those will be, we're starting to we've already started doing some of this lot of experiments. So you can do like sign in with the theorem if you want it. So that's one. The second one is, I think There is still a bunch of identity data That's essential in physical formats and in silos. So we think that will be like the next wave. You know, think of your driver's license, your passport, your birth certificate insurance
cards. There's so much data that still in a physical format for a good reason. By the way, if we can bring that online and and use verifiable credentials. Now that we all have devices with Biometrics, I think that would be be a really amazing and frankly removes friction from our daily lives. Imagine not having to remove your insurance card every time you go to the doctor. Yeah I'm noticing some of that Improvement coming in in small waves. You know. I think example of it.
I've most recently had is the TSA going in to get through an airport. Now, you don't actually have to show your badge. I mean, your, your your ticket, they're just looking at your ID and they've actually last summer when to through TSA, I didn't you have to show my ID. You had a camera set up and did a biometric of my face. Now, I had to approve that from a privacy standpoint, yes, but they were able to take my my facial Biometrics and map that back that I had to take it for that day.
And they let me write through, I think it's very smartly, quite clear, is doing, for example, and sometimes up for that, that idea of a digital verified credential or identity is a big part. I think, I believe of the future. What I'm concerned about is the the platform Is playing along with that, you've got Android, you've got Apple historically, they don't really work well together and trying to come up with something that works ends up having half measures on one or the other.
So I'm you know, I'm excited about sort of the collaboration that's going on Fido for example, where everyone's on board correct. Love to see a similar kind of concept where you know I'm a first class citizen if I have a iPhone because I have, you know, X capability versus an Android phone, which in the world. Far more than Apple users, come down for that. And I think is that something that concerns you as well? Or am I thinking about it? Will happen. No, we it's less of a concern.
I think this is exactly why I act exists actually, because we actually don't care what platform or stack your on. We want to build a neutral and independent, a cloud that essentially Works across all platforms and so you bring up a very good point, okay? 84, all these Innovations are on the iPhone. It works. Well, if you're in the iPhone or apple ecosystem, what happens if somebody in your family member is on Android?
And now they feel left out. So we want to make sure our technology Works across platforms. And I think that's exactly the reason why why OCTA is the company to go solve a problem like this. Because we care about all of these scenarios and we're not preferential to one platform or another and we recognize that these platforms Their own reasons to do, whatever they're doing, which is fine, whatever choices they make.
And, you know, we're big proponents of Standards bodies where we can advance for the entire industry and they'll be cases where, if it's not moving as fast. Well, we will go build some initial standards and and, and and try to get adoption. So I think so. So I think our technology actually becomes even more relevant and even more powerful in a world where you have so much. Each platform fragmentation. We see this in our work lives, by the way, every day.
And so, when this shifts the consumer, same thing, will we will try to solve it across platforms. So I'm going to, we're going to wrap, start to wrap things up because Magic Johnson is about to go on stage and I think we all want to go see. We all want to see that Mackenzie in the corner. She's a silent participant here. She's got a thumb like Hirsch and I think yeah. But we're going to end on a lighter note.
And you know the I'll pose this question to shift first and we'll kind of go around the room that way if you It have any person? Living living person for dinner. Who would it be? Yeah. So I'm a big Manchester United fan, which is an English football and so sore. Eyes Alex Ferguson, who was a coach for about 20, 24 years there, you know, I became a fan since since he was a coach and so it would I would just love to
have a evening with him. I think there's a ton I could learn from the years that He spent coaching these amazing players and one, you know, 19 different trophies. Is there a my first question that you would want to ask. I'm just like it's like how do you manage all these egos? Yeah you had me all about yourself. Yeah. Well, you know in the 10 years that we've been building or zero and now in my role here at OCTA, I found another passion. You know, of Mines.
I'm an engineer, of course, I loved it. Reggie and all of that stuff, but eventually I learned that my product in building the company was actually building teams as well. So very similar to what she was. Describing actually, not not too long ago. I read a biography of world leader that I admired a lot and I liked her being in a very difficult role and I could see with all, of course, the differences in scale and
complexity. I could see a lot of Rarities of that and became a geek of leadership and and guiding people into greatness. And so he's Angela Merkel. I think she's a world-class leader and humble, and, you know, probably no joke, leading, one of the biggest economies in the world in a complicated world. And so I would love to have dinner with her. Yeah. No kidding. It was a very stable environment with firm charge Jim. How about yourself who you going to have over to get an answer,
kind of like shivs. So it's a professional athlete and I thought about it from the standpoint of somebody who I could learn from right, somebody who I'm kind of Awestruck by but also somebody I could potentially influence and I chose Aaron judge from the New York Yankees. I'm big, New York Yankees fan. The guy had a phenomenal season and it was his quote, unquote walk here, which means that he's now a free agent and can sign with any team for as much money
as they're willing to offer. But I'd like to try to influence them to do is stay with the New York Yankees as long as they're going to give him the money. So yeah, that's that's my answer. All right. Well, you guys Good answers. My name is extremely specific. I want to have dinner with George r.r., Martin author of Game of Thrones and really asking about season 8. Because I know that I look, I love all things Game of Thrones,
I thought it was. I'll I enjoyed it for what it was to me. The series ended. When Aria kills the night king. Sorry spoiler. Right? It's probably for throughout their and the next couple of episodes, were sort of very quickly, trying to tie it up and I want to know, sort of what was the real. Finding here. Like, what is he thinking about? Because he is still writing the book years later. Yeah, we haven't seen it. So I'm curious just from a I want to close the loop on that
one. So you guys give good answers? I got the stupid answer but that's what I want to have. No no I think that's good answer to and you know it's probably like HBO said. All right we need to wrap this thing up morsi's this it. Yeah absolutely speaking to wrap things up, let's go ahead and do that now. Thank you guys so much for being part of this. I know you guys are super busy, you have presenting and you got ahold of a lot of Demands on our time.
So we definitely appreciate. Taking this step for us. And shout out to Mackenzie sitting across here for helping coordinate everything. And so the entire octave team, right, being able to help us out and support us to this, as well as our SM, we are going to go ahead and leave it. Go talk to Magic Johnson, you can find us on the web. I'd any of the center.com or on Twitter at idea. See podcast and thanks everyone for listening and we'll talk
with you all in the next one. Thanks for listening to the identity at the center podcast. If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe and visit us on the web and identity. The epicenter.com.