You're listening to the identity of the center podcast, this is the show that talks about identity and access management and making sure you know who has access to what let's get started. Welcome to the identity of the center podcast. I'm Jeff. And that's Jim. Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you? Oh, not so bad yourself. It's going fantastic here. A doctor octane. 22 in San Francisco, California. And in the recording booth, which is fantastic. It is, and the rain has
subsided. So today's been a nice nice, casual walk over. At least, I don't know. Actually, maybe the rain has inspired haven't seen the sunlight since about 8 a.m. but yes, definitely, thanks doctor for their support, you know, giving a spot to record Thanks to our SM, obviously, for funding, our travel out here and making this all possible enough with the kind of the commercials, we are at Octane 22.
We've been having lots of great conversations with folks here, we've got another one, great, another great, one lined up here, with Matt Vesak. He's the VP of product with champ. Welcome to the show, man. Hey guys, thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks so much for taking the time and this is the first time you've been on the podcast with us. So we've got this sort of traditional question and that is how did you get into this space of identity? And you know is it something?
Thing that you chose or did it choose you? Yeah so identity definitely found me. I came from a place of device management, Mobile Security, application programming and you know one of the things that got me into identity was the realization of how to determine a managed device from an unmanaged device and if that user is using a managed device or not, and one of the first things we realized, well, you know, how can we Bridge an identity to a device and my tie those things together?
So that Can have what's now kind of amounted to zero trust principles like solving that problem. Early was something that we were after Ann actually here at OCTA octane. 2019 was where I kind of got a lot of inspiration for some of those ideas and actually this conference crushed, the initial idea that we had and ultimately evolved into some better solutions that we ended up thinking through making. So it was a learning experience. It was a learning experience.
Yeah. Eye-opening and soul-crushing at the same time. So I am a fan of jam for a Of reasons mostly personal selfish regions because anything that makes it easier for Max and Mac OS in general to be more prevalent in an Enterprise. That is mostly dominated by windows at this point, right? Is good. For those who aren't familiar with jams, give us like the 3060 seconds, sort of what is Jeff do and what are the problems that
they're looking to solve? Yeah so jams primary business for the last 20 years has been just that making Manageable. So they could work in the Enterprise or in schools and, you know, organizations the challenge has always been that apple is a consumer company. They focus on endpoint, you know, and user experience and they kind of keep it is the second you know player in that equation.
So Apple has though created a lot of Frameworks and stuff that providers like jam can adopt to make those devices manageable at scale and so Kind of what we say is we take, we're Apple leaves off when it comes to enabling these things and bridge the gap to where businesses and Enterprises like need for those devices to operate within a Windows world and you know, need all the security and management requirements.
So side question here, how I guess how much of a partner is Apple in this and helping you get your products out there? Like I hope they have to be aware of it, right? Do do they help? Do they assist and they've kind of drawn the line or is it something where it's made like a frenemy situation, you know what is what does it look like, you know, from your perspective? Know, so we're really well aligned with apple. I mean we have a long history of working with them. We adopted.
We were one of the first to adopt mobile device management. Originally fun, fact, you know, we were originally of all about like, mac Imaging but as Apple introduced to MDM, you know, we saw that as the future and we adopted that first and we gave a lot of feedback to Apple, and that kind of, really kick-started the relationship from that point.
So we have as good of a relationship as you can with apple, apple has a very secretive kind of way of working, which is no different at the Enterprise level. So we have our relationships with them and we're able to do what we can. But, you know, we don't get roadmap visibility. It's a lot of reading tea leaves and those sort of things, but when you're aligned closely with apple, you kind of have a better idea of where things are headed
and you can move that way. So you've got a cool title VP of product, which, you know, depending on your Viewpoint. Could be sounds really awesome. I immediately, maybe I'll take a little darker place. I think of, you know, Breaking Bad. If your product. What is a VP of product do? Like what is your day look like. Yeah so VP of product and I'm specifically VP of product for our security division, okay? There's a division that is
management. So security is everything we deliver with identity and access ztn a and kind of our security stack. We have the management VP who is responsible for Jim projet. Now, some of our, the, the traditional management stuff. So my role is to really look at how we have established our customer base with these decades long as of relationships with device management and understand how we can leverage that Apple device management.
Footprint to be able to offer more Security Services up the stack because as Jim we're not going to move across the stack where we're going to start to like dude, Windows management, for example. So our option is to go up the stack where, you know, now we need to think about how do we bring identity to the platform? How do we bring in Point Security and networking? And how do we provide a great
user experience around all that? That's what we say like apple consumer-friendly, but, you know, suitable for energy security teams and it teams to be able. Manage the whole solution. So my role is to really identify
those opportunities. Make sure it aligns with whether the market is headed, where our customers heads are at and then enabling our sales team and marketing team to go out and talk to that while also managing a team that actually executes on the roadmap and builds those things. We're going to talk about one of the sausage you just had last
night. Actually, that was really good, but I'm curious from a like, a product roadmap perspective as you think about it from like, okay, what are the us' or capabilities that we're going to offer, I guess, where does that inspiration come from? You know, there's things like pass keys and Fido Alliance, which were very good friends with and yes, have been part of that, you know, kind of Arena. I would imagine customers are probably coming to you asking for. Hey, can we do this?
I guess where, you know, where else does inspirational? Because I would imagine you can't just be, you know, on on Pace you need to be thinking ahead like that's very easy industry going and Dissipating with those things are. I guess it seems to make us very much a challenge, especially considering how often things changed. Yeah. And it and identity and specific other are there any things you can kind of point to that would help kind of bring that into context?
Yeah I mean so our very first, real identity product was Jam connect and that was filling. A need that directly to your point. Directly from customers customers were saying, hey I have a I don't want to do 80 binding for my Mac and I really have no way to create local Accounts at Scale with passwords and sink.
So we just, it was purely listening from customers and actually an open source project called Nomad, you probably heard about that back in the day, we acquired that and turn that into Jam connect and made it into what it is today. And that was filling that gap of bringing identity to the Mac. Now, what I talked about yesterday and where we're headed, Apple has realized. Well, that's a gap worth filling because we built a whole product around here.
We've got a bunch of customers. So why not actually like build that into the platform? And oh, by the way, Microsoft's, Doing this for quite some time, too. And there's probably some reason why Microsoft still has such a footprint because they have identity built into everything that they do on their platform and windows. So, Apple's response is everything that they've
announced this year. So platform, single sign-on for instance, is designed to solve a lot of those problems and actually bring identity to the to the platform. And the really interesting thing is, you know, this apple gave some hints about this a few years ago with a single sign-on extension. It's enables Al's you know identity providers like OCTA and Microsoft to figure out or to be able to deliver these kind of Fido.
We're both ends password list sort of experiences using the secure enclave and and fingerprint sensor and those sort of things on these devices. But what they were missing was that deeper integration into the actual OS. That was just kind of out that but application Level. So now what they've been doing is they've been with these announcements, they've really made it.
So that your first touch point with when you unlock your Mac or log into your Mac. That is actually making it really easy to enjoy those password list and single sign-on and secure, Enclave, back and biometric backed experiences. Once you start using applications on the device so mad, I won't talk a little bit about the jam Jam fans to company give a number of products. You also solve a couple of different use cases, right? So why don't we start there with what are the major use cases?
Then give us an idea of like the product landscape because I heard you mention several products and I don't know how they fit into the big picture. I'm assuming you ins like a management project product and things like that and it sounds like there's a secure Enclave product. But, you know, maybe you should just educate us listeners and practitioners on what yeah, what the pieces and parts are and maybe start with the use cases. Yeah.
So most people know us Forge a 0 and the use case around that is Apple device management. Its I have these iOS Or Mac OS devices or iPads and Apple TVs. And I need to make sure that I'm able to keep track of them. Wipe them deploy Wi-Fi.
Deploy apps. Make sure there's not, there are vulnerable like, just very basic, like MDM functions and kind of even if you have MDM for, you know, your windows to your Microsoft device is you still would want to use Jam because it's like more feature-rich and the idea.
Yeah, so it's an interesting question because, you know, you would think that you EMS like, you know, you Unified endpoint management tools like in tune would win the day but Mac is such a unique Beast that it allowed us to build a best-of-breed product that even was able to survive in spite of you EMS. And in fact, Microsoft like does what's called co-management with us. So, you know, it's Microsoft Azure ID and some in tune capabilities as well as our champ Pro and point agent and
MBM. So that's what we're known for. That's where we've really kind of established ourselves over the last again. Like Decades is what most people know us for now, kind of alluded to it earlier. We've had the option, you know, as we as we're now a public company, we need to continue to grow. We need to do more and more. So you know, an MDM and device management only can do so much where we were, you know, going into a lot of more markets where in all sorts of areas.
But you know, the idea is like, if we're not going to go build an Android or we're not gonna be coming to uem because we really want to focus on that Apple experience. We think it's such a differentiated platform. There's so much Which future opportunities to it, that it makes sense to lean into that. So that's why we're leaning into these other technologies that go up the stack.
So Jeff connect was the other thing that a lot of our customers know us, for which is where we brought identity to the Mac where the main use case is, I got this brand new Mac out of the box. The default behavior is, hey, welcome like create a new user account, local account, local account. Let me go ahead and come up with any random user name. Oh, and any random. And maybe make it a sad and it's going to have admin rights and must be, at least 4 characters. Yeah.
If it even has that. Yeah, and, you know, we we solve this thing with out-of-the-box Device, enrollment, so, Jan Pro, and Apple provide out of the box device enrollment. So that Mac out-of-the-box use the serial number to provision itself, into your MDM in our case, Jeff Pro, right? Wonderful has nothing to do with the actual user account that
it's crazy. You could do some configurations around what that's supposed to look like, but all of our customers have said like that is Insufficient for what we need. So champ connect is designed to do this kind of just in time, local account, provisioning, with your identity provider of choice. And it keeps the passwords in
sync between the IDP. You can do things like audit log ins to the Mac, your identity provider because it's using like all the web views and all that other sort of fun stuff. So it's delivering some of this modern authentication capability onto Mac OS. And so, we were kind of the first to do a lot of that. And as we move further up this, Back. We then also added things like
endpoint security. So being able to do things like looking for malware or risky, Behavior or devices that are straight out of compliance, is one of the things that we do and then on the networking, even further up the stack, we have a zero, trust network, access solution, that is highly identity-based, we require that a user authenticates, whether identity provider of choice again. And then we use that identity to, you know, determine what access users should have access to.
And well, again, we built the whole solution. Lucien around this idea that vpns traditionally suck. And so we want something that is well uses. The VPN framework, it's using wire guard behind the scenes, so it's super fast and it just takes a lot away. A lot of that that pain of trying to manage private public, private key pairs, you know manually. We just kind of wrap identity around that put policies around it and we get this full stack experience.
Let me ask about the wire guard because at Peak my my brain a little bit, it's a newer protocol for security and I think there's some times incompatibility issues that I With Hotel routers yet Hotel Wi-Fi. I'm assuming I'm sort of like fallback plan.
Yeah, we did a great. Yeah, so it is an area where we are expanding on. Some of those compatibility things like captive portal networks on airplanes are the bane of my existence because, you know, you're supposed, there's a whisper protocol that's supposed to let the OS is allows you to, like gracefully handle the situation where there's not a default gateway, but we've just found a lot of
these captive portal. Networks actually buy I passed that detection and intentionally continue on and cause problems. I am to the point where I have captive to apple.com as a bookmark toolbar because I run in this problem so often so you know exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah, so, we're working on ways to improve that but that is, that is one of the challenges of wire guard. So, I heard you mention a couple of other things in your
presentation. I don't think they're chapped products, but one must fast pass. And then, I know that the other is not yours is passkeys, right? Maybe talk a little bit about those and how they fit into what you're doing. Yeah, so many passes. So, yeah. So octave Fastpass is an octave technology that is acht has implementation of apples single. Sign-on extension, on Apple platforms now, on Windows, they use other Technologies but they have OCTA fast.
Pass is the wrapping of the password list Technologies and secure Enclave based Technologies available on Windows. Hello, for instance, but also all the secure Enclave Tech on Apple Technologies. It's the wrapping of that so that you can have these password list biometric web often based experiences using the octave verify application and so there's fast pass. Then there's pass Keys which are also web authentic credentials. Now, they're not necessarily the same thing.
Octaves using their own kind of proprietary mechanisms to do you know for their credentials. You know, how to make fast pass work but you could use web often and other, you know, and and passkeys as a way of doing, you know, additional step up with medication or other sort of authentication.
I want to preface this next question by saying, I love MacBook Pros and MacBook airs and you know basically the Apple products but from a security standpoint, I wonder you know, why wouldn't I A seesaw or CIO just want to have like a Windows. Only environment. Wouldn't that make it much easier for them is it that they, they have to do the the MacBooks or can actually be just a secure more secure than the windows environment.
Yeah. So we get this question a lot as you can imagine being focused on Apple devices and Enterprise. So, you know, there's been this kind of natural growth where you've had creatives and certain business units and certain job. Really focus on Apple and insist on Apple and those. And you know, the security team said, well fine. If you're going to support that, we need some sort of device
management. So you know, there's been this kind of natural attached of a services like jam Pro and device management to those Max. But what's been missing has been again higher up on the stack like how are you making a great
experience with networking? And how are you able to make sure that the endpoint is secure from threat and the Frameworks and the Ecosystem, the Technologies haven't just necessarily been there when where they have been, it's been taking Windows Technologies and just kind of dumping them on Mac and you you don't get a great experience and also you've had the cost element of it like Windows have always been like PCS have just been cheap, like they've been a lot cheaper.
The so when it comes to the actual purchase price, it's been cheaper to do that now, you introduce things like the MacBook Air with the M2 processor, where you're getting a lot of bang for your buck. That's definitely starting to change the game and from a support abilities. I'm Point as you have mobile device management as you have integrated identity coming along as you have Securities Frameworks and all these pieces that have been missing for the
sea. So, to look at the platform and say, oh, that's the mature, enterprise-grade platform. Those are all finally starting to come together and we see things like ought to Fastpass and our MDMA, you know, champ row and all of these kind of components come together to make it actually possible. So if we have, you know, all the tools in place for both platforms to have feature parity, right? When it comes to security.
I think there was relatively famously IBM, I think it was did some sort of like study like seems like it was five years ago. Could be ten, I don't know. Time doesn't mean anything anymore where they found, it was actually cheaper for them to run a Mac as a standard device because there was probably a higher upfront cost of the time because it's what I'm pretty Apple silicon. But less challenges around support Hardware failures Etc.
But I think one of the things they did call out was they had to have a very good strategy from a security standpoint to make sure that you just these devices were enrolled. And I guess the skeptic in me looks at this and says, okay, well I've got Windows, I've got some portion of my user base that wants to use a Mac. I already have Windows sort of MDM Licensing in tune through my Microsoft 365.
And now there's this extra expense that I need to go to to adjust to support the Mac population. And I think that turns off a lot of folks who are like, okay, I would love to do it, but there's a cost associated with all this stuff. Are there things that we should be thinking about in the, I am world to better support, our Mac brothers and sisters out there of which I am one of your own. I do both right if I'm equal opportunity but I do find that,
you know, financially speaking. There is an extra cost today to support the mac and why It and I don't know what the right messaging is to get out in front of folks, and say, yes, there is or its comparable, or maybe there's some other sort of benefit to say. Yeah. We should have something like jam fright, to solve all these other issues. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, a big part of it is you also, you know, some of the other trends that have happened to.
So again, pricing is becoming more comparable, so the actual asset is becoming less of a huge different. I mean, it used to be the employee Choice when you would choose to do a Mac. You It like a MacBook Pro which was like starting 2,800 dollars or something like that versus a $900 Lenovo or something. And so it was just apples and oranges when I came to a price comparison.
But again that's why the Silicon thing is such a kind of a game-changer a big piece of it but there's a ton of other elements in play you have, you know, employees with a, you know, the younger Generations that are used to iPhones and east of the Apple experiences and they're going to want to
have, you know, device choice. And having a Mac option is That increasingly to pull the right, you know, the full top talent, they're going to want to have the choice to have a Windows or Mac device just throwing them with a Windows. You're going to get a lot of opinionated users as we go along. Also on the application stack.
You know, a lot of traditionally Windows a lot of like that Windows applications only run on Windows but now increasingly everything's moved in the cloud in browsers or native apps that are just wrapped in a lot of cases. So you have this, you have this situation where the actual platform the OS that's running because less of a Of a hindrance
to being able to adopt. So I think all those Trends are coming together to make it so. Well, if you care about user experience and yes you're not going to buy just one Microsoft license and get everything. But if you care about user experience and productivity and you know, and you to your question about identity, what can we do?
Just integrating with the native Apple Frameworks whenever you're building applications or you are you just sticking to Modern off like as much as you can, let's just going to automatically unlock these excellent you. Experience Frameworks because apples investing in the underlying identity layers that as long as you as developers, create enrollment at are like side and experiences that leverage the native Frameworks. You're going to get 2 benefit in the Enterprise world.
All these great innovations that are enabled by OCTA for instance, or other identity, providers, as part of that, yeah, wanted to ask one. Other question is, I'm trying to get a sense for what is the approach that you see? Most companies taking, what's where's the trend? Is it that they're allowing Max where they just traditionally outshine PCS like in desktop publishing and on the developer side, or do you see more organizations moving toward?
Hey, we're a Mac shop. And then I've worked for a smaller company where it was BYOD, including right. The Jeff's up. So it was like, hey, you've got a stipend of 2,000 or 3,000 every couple of years. You can go out and buy your own device but we're going to manage it, right? Is that a trend that you're seeing more overall? What's the landscape out there? Yeah, overall the landscape today is you have pretty much
every sized organization. Has some portion of Max, whether that's a hundred percent, 90 percent, 5 percent, 10 percent really varies bound, the industry upon, you know, the size of the company and like what sort of work they do, and what they're working. Workforce prizes of and also who's running 90 and how they think about their endpoint experiences and where they focus on and stuff like that. So today, it's a little bit all over the place.
But again, we are seeing that that point earlier about the employee, that device Choice programs have been kind of skewed towards more expensive, like it's a premium theme for a Mac. So we are definitely seeing the trends of Max becoming a more open option for employees choose between like, you know, he's Just reserved for certain like
job roles. But now, you know, more and more companies, especially the larger larger ones are saying, well, you know, we can put a Mac right there next to the Windows machine, when you're choosing. But very few are saying, You must have a Windows or you must have a Mac because again to the point of employee choice and be most productive on the platform, you enjoy is important. And like what we're trying to do on the jam side is again, make that consumer experience real on
that that Mac device. So when you are presented with a choice, it's something you're familiar with. It's easy to use. Use the text stays out of the way. It's just there. Your point about byos really interesting.
We're seeing a bit of a relative Revolution right now for BYOD because Apple has this thing called user enrollment which is this really light weight management Paradigm where you effectively create an encrypted part in encrypted partition on the device that's separate from all your personal apps management can only work in that encrypted partition. It cannot see anything happening outside of that. It doesn't know what other apps you have installed. Doesn't know what sites you're going to.
It literally has no way to do that if they wanted to. It's private by Design is how Apple built it. So that is currently starting to really kind of make some waves on the mobile side of the world. So iOS iPhones and iPads you know, and watch the space for byop see or BYO Mac.
You know, the idea of bringing your own Mac is really interesting powered by identity, is I in those identity experiences of like how you identify, you know, which applications belong to the organization and which ones are personal, and how do you enroll that that personal? It into an organizational xiety framework that has the right amount of privacy and security baked in. It's a lot harder to do on a Mac.
Given the way that the OS is built, whereas iOS is a lot more sandbox to Nature. You have a little bit more control so but yeah watch that space. It's going to be very interesting. I think see what happens next couple years so this has been a very Apple discussion. Yeah yeah but I'm a fan because I could talk this this stuff all day and I'm sure you can and do as well. We like to end on a lighter note around here and I guess, here's my question, right? What is the best or worst product?
That Apple makes all we can start with with you Matt and see if you've got a which one you want to go with? And we'll go to gym. You know, if I can say it, it's not a single product. It's kind of, I guess it would be like iCloud or like, you know, the whole unified
experience. Like just the fact that I could pick up my phone and you know, start an email then go to My Mac and it just like transfers over or I could like tell Siri to like turn on a fireplace and everything just kind of works whereas you know some other ecosystems are not as seamless. I mean I think that's the beauty of it being like a full stack like they own the hardware and the software that they have a chance. Oh I have one, that's my worst.
And I think everyone listening to this will appreciate if you have air pods the the the time it takes to get that are pod to connect to your phone and Actually get the audio. You want is it's insanely inconsistent. Like I find, sometimes it's like fast and it has every takes like a minute or two minutes. I said I just I don't know her. I'm just going to blame Bluetooth for that one. Yeah Jim. What about yourself the best or worst product that Apple makes is?
So I'm like I'm not like into the newest gadgets So my answer is going to be nothing special but I think the Apple I think they're calling you the family plan but basically like Like apple music Apple podcast, Apple TV, like the amount of entertainment that you can get, think back to when we were kids who were buying like CDs. Do you want to listen to the song? Go buy a CD 1699 amount people like oh my gosh 20 bucks a month for.
It's like a you have access to every song in the world that's like ever been recorded. Like it's amazing. So this is taking it back to the conversation. We had last night with Enrique and been around. Collecting like vinyl and albums versus y or just everything on demand. Like why would I buy something? It's like, it's true, that that's cute to have a wine. All like, I mean, I'm not trying to disrespect people were really into vinyl but you could never come close to the catalog.
So I mean, for me that's that's where it's at. That's a good thing. All right, so I got to I got a best out of worse. The worst is without a doubt. Well actually, I got just thought it's like what I have to work. This one's the worst is the Apple mouse that you have to plug in on the bottom and like you can't use the mouse while it's charging because the charging port is on the bottom. So you just kind of sit there like a dead rodent on your desk, completely unusable.
The other is the remote control for the Apple TV with that. Swipe. Yeah. Before they updated it which is still not great but at least step in the right direction. Oh I hate that. Touchpad is so bad. Is the clear weak spot. Of what it is. A very good streaming box the best and this is something I discovered today.
Literally, when I was sitting here, I was copying something in my my iPhone some text and I just happened to notice on my MacBook sitting in front of me, it said, copied as like what? And I paste it, and it was the text that was on my phone, which is exactly what I wanted to do. I was about to like, you know, go to another app, drop it in there, or email it to myself or whatever, and it just, it was there. And it worked. I was like, Like oh wow. Like that is cool. Can I add a worst?
Yeah and it's it's complaining about a missing feature so Apple carplay which I love love. Apple carplay but I don't see why you couldn't stream a video. To your video screen in your car. Be like Wireless Apple carplay even if it's not wireless, even if it's like USB plug, I just don't see why you couldn't. You could play music to it. You can do Apple Maps to it. Why couldn't you have like a
YouTube video safety? Camping watching TV while you're out in the street anyway you'll find a way. That's my complaint, the whole driving thing. Yeah, it's like complaint that we're gonna jump jump on something there. Oh yeah, no I was just going to say to your point. It's like it's just they do a million little things, right? I mean it's just like these little tiny details that have taken again decades for them to get all tied together. But that's kind of their secret
sauce, I think. Yeah, yeah. I'm a fan time in the ecosystem. What can I say? All right. I think that's been a great cover. Chef Matt. Thank you so much for joining us. You don't let me put you on the spot real quick before we go. Sure. I know a champ. I don't know who your competitors are. Who else does this? So, it's a good question. So I mean, we have on the MDM side. We've always been the traditional gorilla in the market, when it comes to Mac management and apple.
Best we have other competitors that have come in like, kanji and Mosel that have really been like some of the other competitors that have started entering the MDM space and increased. The following the same strategy of moving up the stack with security and of course, we've got our friends at Microsoft, you know, doing a bit of
everything. And, you know, we're working with them where we can and adding value, because you can't get away from Microsoft and they also recognize the value that we bring. So it's really that front of me. Sort of thing is exactly where we are, but that is, it's helping it is, it is, it keeps us motivated to keep on innovating and trying to deliver the best experiences and partner. Where we can too. Yeah, I guess I motivate you guys to kind of keep developing
a staying far enough ahead. That that front of me again. Relationship exists since I like, hey, we don't need you at all. Yeah, one can lie. I think it's the entire industry. If you're not Microsoft and you're playing in their sphere of what they do, especially with Azure ID and with in tune and with Sentinel I'm sorry with Defender and all those other
sort of things. Like if you're another security provider or identity provider, they're keeping you on your toes and I think that's really healthy. For the industry keeps everyone innovating not, you know I agree resting competition is healthy for everybody and yeah, definitely good. So I appreciate that. It was just something. That's, I guess space. There's only one identity podcast, like subscribe, share with your friends, right? All that good stuff.
All right. We'll go ahead and wrap it up for this one. We're on the web. I dated center.com, we're on Twitter. At idac podcast, I'll have links to jam, find our show notes along with Matt's LinkedIn information. If you'd like to reach out to him which I hope is okay. What Just ask for permission just now and yeah. So I would definitely encourage folks to check it out again.
Thanks to the entire Haka team for their support as well as our SM for their support in helping, bring these episodes to you for this entire conference. So we'll go and leave it there. Thanks everyone for listening and we'll talk with everyone and the next one. Thanks for listening to the identity at the center podcast. If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe and visit us on the web and identity at the center.com.