You're listening to the identity of the center podcast, this is the show that talks about identity and access management and making sure you know who has access to what let's get started. Welcome to the identity of the sender podcast I'm Jeff and that's Jim. Hey Jim hey, Jeff, how are you? Oh, not so bad yourself.
I'm doing great. I as you know, am in the process of buying a house but I think the biggest news in our industry is that there's a private Equity Firm Thoma, Bravo, that is making it, much bigger purchase, taking Ping, Identity, private and a 2.8 billion dollar acquisition deal. And once you get your hot take on, that definitely would be a hot take. Well, let's see. They bought sale point. I believe, I think they have, was it Beyond trust. I mean, don't quote me on that.
But I think there are kind of gathering a whole Suite of security tools, which I'm not sure what that's going to end up like if they'll just keep separate or try to do some sort of merge play. I don't know. I mean, I think it's interesting I think is totally in line with the rest of the industry, seems to be having these periods of consolidation. Ation in the market. But yeah, I don't know if I have. I'm not definitely an expert enough to be able to weigh in on
what it means. I'm sure it's exciting for paying data to get a bunch of money in. Well I think that you know I'm I hot take is that they must have seen the value like underlying value either, you know. Combining the companies that they have or even just the fact that, hey, here's this company that went public is stock price. Has been beat up a little bit because of the decline in the in the market and I mean, they're probably smart.
They see that identity is at the center of information security, that's the biggest area that companies are going to continue to invest in and if they can go ahead and and get a good deal on a company like this that it makes sense to go buy it. And heck, I mean, I think they're probably more in the business of buying a Company making some changes and then taking them back public, you know, a couple of years, down the road after the market, kind of would be more in line to
recognize the value. So that's kind of my guess. But I think it's it's earth-shaking news, right? I mean, this is pink is one of the biggest players in our space and I mean that what is to come of it is yet to be seen but that's my heart take well. Let's let's, let's be clear here, right there. Not an altruistic Endeavor. The other make money. It's basically they see an opportunity to make money, which probably makes sense. You know, Buy Low, sell high right all that good stuff.
So I think every, you know, I think most of the market has been down for the last couple of months and it's probably probably no better time to buy whatever ends up being but yeah, let's this is all about money. It's yeah, I'm almost a Time Acquisitions. Are I mean you look at the Twitter acquisition, you wonder if it's about making money or something else but But I don't think this is in the same category. Yeah, I don't think so. I think it's a totally different type of purchase.
I hope at least. Let's see. I know we're going to get to our guest here in a moment, but I do want to remind folks that will be at Gartner. I am Summit in Las Vegas. And was that August 22nd to the 24th will be doing some recording there. We've got a nice sweet courtesy of our friends at Aris M. If you want to come watch a show, get recorded. See the magic as it happens, you know, reach out to Jim and
myself. Or myself on LinkedIn and would be happy to try and figure out how we can accommodate that. But should be fun lookin forward to gettin it back into like the conference sort of swing of things fist bumps. You know. All the inevitable invites to like the 40 different dinners that all take place on the same night. Right?
All that good stuff. So just a reminder will be out there and hopefully get a chance to meet folks who are you know listen out there and that would be kind of cool for us. Yeah I mean I honestly cannot wait. I'm really excited about it and The funny thing is so the conference is, you know, going throughout the week. I'm going to fly back and be moving that weekend and, you know, to the days into the spillover in the week after. So you can be my my moment to get a little bit of R&R.
Well, I guess we're be working our butts off a fake, but, you know, being in Vegas, is kind of a cool experience. Usually, it is, it can be tiring. We've got a ton of guests that you've lined up. I think you'd like jam packed my editing. Joel for the next week after it. So I'll have to figure out how to get it done. But yeah, I'll be pretty cool. All right, why don't we? I think for our listeners to is just to be aware that, you know, the week after Vegas we're going
to have a ton of extra episode. So be on the lookout for that and I think our next episode. So next week we'll dedicate to kind of a preview so that point we should be able to preview some of that content. Yeah. Maybe I'll even read up and see what the sessions. Are all about since I've even done that yet. All right, let's get to today's topic.
I think this is something that will that a lot of folks will find interesting and that really is what I'm tentatively titling and who knows, if they'll make of the make the actual final show title but the evolution of I am pricing models. I think it's something that folks are probably familiar with if they've been you Enterprise or you know customers base of buying products is the old. Hey let's do a Perpetual license or now, it's subscription and now there's some new options out
there. To help us with this conversation and we've invited our friend. But noticing, he's the founder and president at ailanthus Technologies, back to the show, welcome back then. Oh thank you. We really appreciate you guys calling me back. I remember, I think it was me back in Feb, 20 2000, right? And I was with you guys and that was a very interesting topic to and looking forward to a very exciting discussion. Yeah, that was definitely an interesting time in the human race, I guess.
As a shared Collective Consciousness. Yeah, that was episode number 32 and here we are on. What should be episode 159, which is kind of crazy to say. I know that we've kind of learned a bit about your background last time. So if folks are kind of want to get back to, you know, how do you know, how did you get into the item space? I would encourage you to go back, listen to episode 32, and then come back and pick this up.
But what's been going on the last couple of years since really, I guess the last time we talked about is like the pandemic was just getting started.
What's new and shaken in the world of the node where the bit just been a very interesting more than two years since we met last as you know the pandemic has been the main topic for all of us and in particular, I think for identity and access management folks, this has been a very interesting time while the world was was looking at things going down. Things were in a difficult State business, as well as health.
One thing that was certainly picking up in the background was identity and access management because people working from home and many other issues that came up Suddenly three opened the doors for. I am in a bigger way that it ever was not that a lot of buying happened at that point in time but some of us being in this space for a long time were quite really looking at as to how things are spanning out, how technology requirements are changing in.
Donate and we were all busy trying to fix things and do things. Like for example working from robot remote became a very, very important thing. And we will try to look at as to how like most of the other guys can can do changes to our products. So we were looking at a lot of things.
The thing that happened with pandemic we could see that there's going to be a downturn and even though the need for concerns around identity and access are going to increase but people Are going to be having less dollars to really be. So on one side, the demand will go up but the affordability of customers going to be less than what it was before pandemic. So we were looking at, you know, interestingly enough. We began doing a very major survey in the last one year,
more than a year. Now, where we did go too close to our 250 cios and CFOs asking these questions in terms of what, what do you think? What kind And of modeling, are you looking for one about the demand for identity and access and second as to what would be the way you'd like to purchase. So we were quite busy trying to do all that in the last more than two years sounds like a full plate. I guess I you know, Jim asked me for my heart, take on the pink
thing. When you see, you know of a large PE firm like Thoma Bravo, make purchases like this. What does that feel like, you know I guess being in this space you know, from as a Entity product is it? I assume it. Is there some sort of validation, right? Hey, we're in the right space, probably helps. I guess any, any thoughts or things that maybe people who are not, you know, with what's a technology itself and you see this, but what should we be taking away from that sort of thing?
So this is not surprising. As you, as you, you guys were chatting in the beginning, this is a good time to buy in some senses and this is a good time to buy those companies who do have a good and Ounce customer base because they have be there for white and it's very difficult to change technology in areas like these as we do. Even if you are not fully satisfied but companies we are we are not we're not really making much Headway you know, and facing lot of headwind
because of the kind of Technology they have, something has been an old company. In fact, it's been one of the first companies. If you look at these is our space. And in that they have, So many technologies that they had to build. See one of the problems with most of most of the guys is that when you begin, you obviously have the best and the latest in technology. And as you begin acquiring customers and couple of years past due to typically, I see that a three to three and a half years.
You know. Technology is starts getting old and it's very difficult to make a major change in your version, so you keep on patching up and then you end up seeing new features and areas opening up like, DC I am and so on and so forth and then you start bringing additional Technologies either to acquisition or doing some additional you know ways.
I'm going to do some additional engineering to develop new modules and what you end up doing is having a bunch of Technologies which do not really work out you know as one single composite technology which is worked more and more happening at least in identity and access Jeff, you know, about the converged I am and it was only in November, 20, 20 that Gardener talked about it first and ever since then, that seems to have become the real Demand with customers because and most
of the Technologies don't satisfy. So I'm not surprised to see ping by out because it's a good candidate it it has been there for a long time. I think customer the number of customers that it has is the biggest biggest attraction. In terms of its value, not so much of Technology submit. I wanted to kind of shift this into our conversation for today which is around licensing models
for. I am software and I'll start by saying that over the past decade, we've kind of seen a shift away from the Perpetual license model like I buy license per user and then I own that license for life and pay maintenance fee to something that's more subscription-based. So I pay an annual, only the annual fee, and it's not just cloud-based applications that are making the shift. But even, you know, traditional on-premise software
applications. I have been making this shift in Mass to the subscription model and now you, you had I llantas, your company has added a wrinkle to this which is basically a new Option called pay-per-use pricing. And so first, I wanted to start with what's kind of the inspiration for Were the paper use model.
So the as I told you the whole thought process began, just around the pandemic time when we could see that this is going to expand out into the ability and it is going to hit the ability of the customers to purchase. I am technology and there's got to be something that needs to be done.
And that's when we did this very important survey, we took about six months for us to do that and we've we were asking the CFOs and the cio's As to what is it, what's the kind of what are the kind of gaps that you see today in in your purchase model and what came out to us, were three things. First was in terms of the high entry costs. Let's not forget that identity and access the the real opportunity today and more than 60% of the opportunity is in
Greenfield space. Customers who have not purchased I am before, but they Not postpone any more because of the security concerns that they have, in fact, more and more. It's being said, that smaller organizations have got more danger and they're in, they're more vulnerable than larger organizations for obvious reasons. And therefore, everybody wants to go and have the core technology, like I am so, but the entry costs are very high.
You look at it. Jim typically today about 2,000 users, which is pretty much the same. Side of a mid-market customer. I end up the mid-market. You end up spending about 200k and two hundred thousand dollars is not a small amount for a midsize customers to spend on it. Regular basis on an annual basis, add to it the the difficulties of implementation and high costs associated with it and all it makes it
prohibitive. So high entry cost is one thing, one problem that we wanted to really solve. Yeah. So it seems like it's like from a Four sharks or standpoint. This is a model that we're becoming accustomed to. I'm wondering do you see a shift in this area taking place for application applications overall
not just? I am applications like I've lent as but also you know travel and expense or Erp systems that they shift more away from a, we're going to charge you per user, which might not be the best indicator of how much value you're getting from. This system has shifted more towards something like the amount of times you use a workflow or the, you know, kind of the the more of a usage, based model. Absolutely.
So this is not just true for I am space but also for as use rightly said, the demand for shifting onto a model, where we will have lower entry cost where we have lower wastage because that's another issue that in the especially in this Scription model is, is really very, very, very Stark. In fact talking to many, many, cios.
They say, you know, subscription is kind of illusionary, because when you begin, it looks like one more subscriber you were adding to your system, and it looks like a very small cost per subscriber, but then it ends up into being something humongous at the end of the year and we don't even realize it. So it's very important to really see how do we cut the wastage. Age. And that's another thing which is quite true for other Technologies as well. In the third is the accountability.
Let's not forget that because in the subscription or any of the previous models, there is no accountability on on the cost who's consuming, who's not consuming what's really going on? In over there people can only look at the the amount that they have invested but the usage in the accountability for usage is not there and these things get pretty We seen other Industries as well autonomy. And I am. Yeah, right.
As wonder if maybe you could give a little when we did our prep call, you kind of gave some perspective in terms of the history of the shift from the Perpetual model into the subscription model. And what I thought was interesting is that some companies did a good job with it like Microsoft, others maybe not so well, right. So what can we glean from this and kind of apply to What might take place with the paper use model.
So we got to, first of all know, couple of things, the market practices for purchases or sales for that matter, from organic, from companies like us, are largely driven by large players and their needs, they're not so much driven by the needs of the
customer. If I look at the Perpetual model and when the shift was occurring about a decade ago from Perpetual to license, I clearly you You would remember that people like IBM and the Oracles of the word but the last ones to go into that and the reason is very simple. They had huge AMC that they used to get, you know, it used to run into hundreds of millions of dollars that they were collecting, which would disappear overnight.
If the shift to the the this model the typically, it's the ratio thumb rule is about three-and-a-half to four times. So between the perpetual and the end And and the subscription model and suddenly, if these large players who were selling on Perpetual, if they shifted to the other model, which is subscription, their revenue would have dropped down by almost half and they cannot afford it. I mean, what base are you going to show to the stock market, right? And nobody's going to understand
that. So they tried not to do not to do that shift till such time it became impossible not to shift with the customers began. Demanding and everybody started doing it amongst the smaller players like us. So we must understand that. But the practices are, you know, the big guys, they don't don't, you know, wait, they don't go necessarily to satisfy the requirements of the customer be go by. They have to protect their, their own share prices. And that's what really drives
the thing till the last moment. So that happened once. The same thing is beginning to weaken. See it happening again when People are beginning to get quite dissatisfied with the subscription model. Something that was happening with Perpetual just about 10 years ago. So it's time to change and you know, reasons are quite quite clear.
I can't recast lack of accountability on the investment and the sheer waste is that you have in the subscription because you have to sign up a subscription and perhaps for more number of people than you have because you're doing it usually for a year and You're not going to use it is and then you've got the light user versus the heavy user.
You've got the you've got view, purchasing your not everybody is not using the same when you purchase, you don't begin, everybody doesn't start using it because you still implementing it. I am it's Rachel because it takes time to implement. So, for first couple of years, you're not even utilizing the full value at all. So once again, those pressures are there, and I think this, that's what is going to lead to another. They're around a big change. We are you taking the leadership
in that as well? As far as I am, is concerned. I'm a fan of choice and I think this introduces choice for the consumer, right? I think there is probably, you know, where options where a subscription definitely makes sense or even Perpetual makes sense. And there's certainly an option where pay-per-use makes sense as
well. And I think this is why things that you touched on when we're you just said, is that From a subscription model to any other payment model has repercussions, especially for public companies, where they are chasing, sort of the next quarter, or Revenue targets or whatever it may be. So that I think that it is interesting. I also think about it from Death by subscription as well. I think most people will probably have like multiple video subscriptions, right? It's Netflix Hulu Disney.
Now, I might as well commit, you know, all your You Tube TVs. He's right. All the different things you pay for, how much of it are you actually using? And I think about it in the old days as an old person on it is remember, we used to have minutes on our phones and number of text messages that we would have a sort of a bank and it feels like a better version of that because we've gotten accustomed to this usage model of paper, you know, pay for it.
You use. I think Amazon started this with their, aw Essence is, for example, it was From the start built on a paper use or consumption model. I think it's easier when you have those sort of options that are out there. So I think it's, I think it's definitely pretty cool to kind of think about that choice, but I imagine and you might have reference this.
When we were just starting to show is the technology needs to be there to be able to do that accountability, that record-keeping and tracking to be able to keep an accurate count of okay, who is actually using our product.
I would imagine that there. Probably some technical underpinning that needs to take place to support this and I think things like microservices or apis or whatever it may be and if your application is not built on sort of that that sort of model, it may be difficult to move quickly to a consumption based model. Do I have that? Right are the things that I need to kind of consider or people listening should consider. You're absolutely right.
There are, there are major technology changes that are required to fit yourself into. It's not like shit. From Perpetual to do the subscription there in effect, there was not much of a change in technology really was required. Your subscription got more shows. He hated with Cloud a typically doesn't Nothing Stops you from having subscription on on-prem as well, right? So there will no real changes required in technology at that point in that transition.
But this transition does require quite a bit of Technology change. You talked about the micro Isis architecture. Yes, that does help in terms of Shifting to a consumption based model but I'm just to tell you Jeff, I'm not really a big fan of microservices, the way it is seen by the world. We in our industry, always have this, you know, there is there is a flavor of the season, right? In for the last few years. It appears to be the microservices.
But ask all of us who have tried microservices from from the beginning. There are issues with that as well. And like it always happens, the middle Mark middle path is perhaps the right bat, so we are all beginning to settle down on a model, which is not monolithic for sure, in terms of architecture but it's also not too granular microservices, but yes, I chrysalises does help.
So we had to do. Almost 4:45 months of work in terms of making the model applicable, the consumption model applicable to our technology. But if it'll work is I want to throw out a wild idea because you know, I've been on both sides of of the I am industry. So I spent the first half of my career you know, on the customer
client side. In other words, buying I am Solutions and so one of the things I always struggled with with buying software was well the software is already built and yeah I'm going to call in for maintenance and things like that, but how do I'm up with the price because you acquire me as a customer. It's not like you're going to have to build new software for me. Yes, you're going to have to support me but that's the maintenance and so more or less. How how should let me turn this
into a question? How should I, as a customer? Think about the prices being charged to me and whether or not, it's a fair price to pay, right? I'm buying something that like a software program that's already I've been written and whether I'm the customer or not, you've already built it, you've already spent the money to build it. So how do I, you know, compartmentalize in my mind that I'm paying a good price or not? Very good question.
And, you know, the I think becomes option model is the first model really addressing that question. Because, you know, all this vile you bid a fixed price, whether it was a Perpetual or in subscription for the first time you're Not going to be the same, it depends on the return on the or your return on. Your investment is going to remain the same regardless of you use more or less, which was
not to earlier. So what I mean by that is that, you know, if you consume more you pay more if you consume less you pay less so there is no one single fee anymore. So you know that's that's the answer to your question because This conduction model for the first time is not fixing the price up, upfront you not knowing as to how you're going to utilize in, what's going to be a return on the investment and so on. So this is an ideal model for
that. I think is interesting question because a lot of people are out there thinking, okay, well, what is this thing Worth to me and then is a highly subjective answer, right? I think you've got a coin collector, I will get a normal quarterback. Okay, let's worth 25 cents. Some other person might look and say, oh, That's this year. It has these markings on it, which makes it more valuable. So, I think it is interesting.
I think part of it too, is you're not just paying for the service, you're also paying for the R&D that went into it and the more people who use it, the overall cost comes down, it's very similar to, for example, the u.s. drug Market where billions are spent on, you know, researching medicines, and testing and things like that. And the prices are so high because they need to recoup that. That investment that they've made to sell it out, so they can
continue to invest. Now, I'm not calling the drug Market great because it is a problem, but this idea of okay, well, I'm paying it, it's more of a mindset. I think of the consumer, like, it's very myopic. I'm only paying for this piece of ham on my sandwich. It's right there while she give it to me. Okay, well, what did it take to get that piece of ham into the position where you can get it? There was a truck at some point. There was probably a pig. There's probably a farmer,
right? There's this whole supply chain which is obviously come into light over the last couple years with the whole pandemic. Strain that has put on that. And I think it is interesting when we talk about who will what's a good price? And I'll be honest, sometimes, you know, I've been on the same same same as Jim, right?
I've been on the consumer side, buying these products and now I'm on the other side of things, not necessarily selling product, although obviously service is a big part of what we do from from a data day-to-day perspective. But what is that worth? And the ends. I think it's highly subjective. It's difficult to put a value on it. If I told you, hey, you know what, I can automate all of your identity governance things for, you know, X number of dollars.
What is that worth to you? One company might say nothing because we already have something or really simple. We're happy with it or another one, I'd say it's invaluable because that is not the, the that is not our sweet sauce. We don't want to spend our money doing things that are not Mission critical to the success of our business. Elsewhere, for example, thinking, I think it's a super subjective question but no. Would you agree with that or
feel free to not 1200? Yes I agree with you that it is a very subjective question but let me bring it a few interesting thoughts and over here because it's not so much about what you're going to you. Give some examples and very rightly. So it's not not so much about the spend part of it as The Return part. You know, if you look at it from that point of view, the the consumption model is for the first time putting all the pressure on the software manufacturer to deliver the
goods. All this while people have purchased because they got an emerged by great demos looks so, so sassy and you purchased it and then you eventually found that you're not getting the return here in this model. Just to tell you. Frankly if you look at our pricing, if you get a chance, you'll see that that we don't make any money. Money whatsoever in the minimum,
you minimum subscription. So there is a small tiny subscription that is there which, of course gets adjusted against consumption also, but in that you don't get make any money, you start making money or we start making money only when the customer really starts using the software. So we are and for it to enable him to use the software is not just the software that's important how we implemented, who implements it for him. So we got to create a good echo system. Of implementers.
We got to see that the implementation is done in a simple way. To the the whole implementation cycle is shortened, the support is very good from our site so that the customer continues to use it. So the entire pressure for the first time is now on the software maker, not on the custom. The second important point I want to make Jeff is that the favorite model will doctor also says the same thing.
For the identity delivery today is going to be is the mssp and this is a model which suits the customer very well because again this is more like, you know, more consumption based and are kind of pricing model in technology now is 100% aligned with mssp delivery. So that's another important thing that you got to see as to how easily the the software is available to you. Not just the software to
delivered software implemented. Software is available to the End customer and these are things that are possible. Only that this model. Yeah, I think it's interesting because the other thing too, is this model that we're talking about, and it started with Perpetual, now we're such now subscription. Now moving to pay per use, it causes a challenge for some folks when we start thinking about budgeting, because there is a, you know, the further you shift to the right in that equation.
The unpredictability or Already of what I might be paying could be an issue, the other thing that comes up and I hadn't really thought about this until a couple of years ago, was the difference between capex and Opex and how organizations budget for these types of things is a lot of organizations work on a cap, ex model where they say, hey we're going to set aside five million dollars for some sort of improvement and then they're able to kind of spread that cost over years, you
know, through accounting and things like that. But their operations expense It is maybe not so high and when you start talking about, you know, subscriptions and paper use. Now we're really talking more op ex and I sometimes question whether or not organizations have even caught up to the subscription model because that
sometimes it's a challenge. And that's the other thing that I think about is, you know, I think this I'd love to hear your input capex versus op ex and how organizations should be thinking about how to budget for this and then trying to address that. Predictability. I think you guys specifically have an interesting model with sort of minimums and maximums and we don't want to turn this into a commercial but I would encourage folks go look at ailanthus.com, check out the
paper. You paper paper paper, use if I could say right because I think there is something there, we've sort of got this hybrid between the two. That makes a lot of sense, at least for me, but I'm curious capex. Op X the predictability. How do you, how do you address those sorts of things? Yeah, so it's a question of do you really want to address it because you know, when the moment you begin talking about who I want to put a million dollars.
As you said for the next five years and we want to assign that to Identity and access. You are forgetting one basic thing that you you're not really looking at what to return. You're going to get. You're only looking at spending the money, right? And that kind of a model is pretty much becoming dead except for a very large organizations, be the fourth Bowser where they have no other way but to continue doing it in that way because they don't know how to
do it any other way. But the smaller organizations, the mid-market and the smaller corporate organ smaller Enterprise, They are all looking to save money to make things more effective for them to get higher return on investment, rather than fixing the the total amount of money they're going to spend the year after year. In fact, they're very happy.
We have spoken to a large number of cios and CFOs So, they're very happy to have flexibility over there, and if they can save every year, 10% or 20% over the last year, rather than fixing it at a certain level and continue to spend that money Piero, they would prefer that model. So having said that in our model, we have certain predictability and their customers who are looking to have that predictability. As you rightly said, you can go to Atlantis at comment.
Take a look at more details with some Our folks to, to understand, but we have provided enough facilitation in our model, to take care of that as well, soba node Jeff and I have gone back and forth about this model. And, you know, I liken it to utilities like your electric bill, he Likens it to, you know, the gas, you put in your car. Obviously, you know, the price can fluctuate for both. I kind of think about Out my electric bill in December.
I think it was like 45 bucks and my most recent electric bill, I live in the south and run the air conditioner all the time like 350 bucks. And so that's kind of that predictability challenge. That concerns me is like, hey, if I have an event that drives a soap. Number one, I really wanted to ask you, do you like either this analogies or do you have another analogy that's like, outside of the, IT world that you would apply?
And And the second is, you know, from a tracking standpoint, how can people kind of go in either, do a better job at managing what that bill is going to be? Or at least have the visibility into what that bill is going to be so jib. First of all, you're not the first one talking about the electricity bill and and the fuel your gas in the car. Several people have asked me that question.
Yes that that's that's a A simple model, you know, you go, you pay a certain amount of money for for a gallon of fuel or for, you know, unit of electricity. But here you blocked. You're talking about multiple services. So, like, for example, password reset could be One servers new user provisioning could be an alder surface and they're going to be obviously different value that you see under those services and the money that you
would be dealing too big. So it's a great analogy because that's what really works out here. That's that's a fundamental on which it is based, but the same time you, you got to stop somewhere on that because this is more complex than that, but the fundamental remains that.
It's based on consumption. The second part that you talked about and again that questions been asked by multiple people to me, you know, talking about electricity as a par consumption, could be very high in Winter and very small. And it could be 1 is to 3, kind of a ratio that. So that's very unpredictable. How do you really take care of
that? Again, we have we've got some wonderful dashboards, which are real time online dashboards that we provide where you can really look at the trends that you have where you look at not just what you're consuming, as as an organization, but you can slice and dice it to departments and for the first time and this model, make we're making those things available where you can look at how the trends are. You can see last year, what happened?
And if you want to smoothen that we have got in the model that also possible. So we can smoothen that to you for you so that you don't want to do. One, two, three kind of consumption over the year. You can smoothen that as well, but that will depend on the trend your Trend and not the general Trend in the market. So it's very specific to you. That's a beauty. Yeah, I do like the idea of smoothing it.
I mean that's something that the electric company will let you do is like what they know your consumption model they can. Can kind of use a predictable, even per month, payment, things like that. But but no, you've been super generous with your time with us today, kind of talking about this consumption based pricing model and as you know about our show we like to end on a lighter note. One of the things that we picked up on with I Lantus and we understand you're the Mastermind behind.
Those is kind of a Spiritual focus on on your company and identity and access management and really it's kind of a tie back to yoga. And I said to Jeff, I think yoga is just exercise right? What's the spiritual piece? So I'm sure you're going to give us an education on that. But the way we framed it up is what is the yoga pose? That most describes I am I'm going to start with Jeff then I'll give my answer, then we'll kick.
Take it to you because I know you're going to give us more than just, it's some kind of posed or exercise. But Jeff. What is the, I am yoga pose that? Or what is that, the yoga pose? That, that reminds you of? I am and why? All right. Well, this is going to definitely show some iater. It's all apologize in advance. I know, yoga is more than just exercise and I think, you know, I read a little bit of a Wikipedia article. So I kind of consider myself a little bit of an expert.
There's different interpretations. Based on whether you're in the west or the East and kind of where it came from. I will take a view that I believe I am is most represented by twisty three-legged down dog, which is sounds as complicated as it is. Because that is how it is, and I feel like if you're in the I am space. As a practitioner, you're probably spreading out a whole bunch of different ways that aren't natural sometimes. But you we'll get it done.
And that's why I always have fun like this phrase of you behind the scenes, there's like a bunch of. I am Heroes that are actually making things work for an organization, despite whatever the issues are that are out there. So I think of twisty three-legged down dog which is sort of like your your hands are on the ground. You've got your feet and I've got your back kind of arch and then you take one of your legs and you try to pull it as far back as possible.
It sounds awkward because it is and I think that's that's the one I'm gonna go with. Not bad, not bad. I was thinking about this. Because we decided this was going to be the question ahead of time. And I know there's a series of poses called binds great. And I feel like having been an IM practitioner, you're in a bind a lot, right? You're just really uncomfortable position and doing something that a human body is not meant to do and you're sweating and all.
But what I shifted to was something a little more with a positive lien, which is a pose called Warrior Two and by the time you get into Warrior Two. You're, you know, you're really building up that that lather, that good, sweat, and you're in a position of strength but you're also in a position where you have to have balance. So I think there's just so many aspects that the I am practitioner has to have all those things you have to have a little bit of experience.
In other words, you have to have been you're like Midway through the routine at that point. And so that's I'm going to go with R2 plus a sounds really cool. So now, but node, maybe you could take. I'm sure you. Do you have an eye in practice where you do our? I'm sorry, a yoga practice where you do some of these poses. So maybe you can start there but then maybe you can educate us a little bit more going beyond the
exercise routine. Sure. So very interesting question, thanks because this is one of my favorite practices and as well as subject matter in which I've been doing a little bit of work. So So deep washer that really strikes me. When I look at, I am, is what the call is called in Sanskrit, from where, you know, yoga uses the Sanskrit as the original language. It's called the serve on gassin, which means, full body posture, and it's actually a combination of nine, different postures.
So it's one sweeping movement, you know, takes about maybe about 30 seconds or 40 seconds. You are Actually doing nine different postures. That's actually the synthesis of the entire yoga, all the partial. So they say that. Even if you're not doing anything else, if you just do this, this is this is it. And that's what I say to my customers and to the market that, you know, you may not be doing some other things in the information security. But if you're doing, I am that's
that's a full body partial. Like so you have 0. So that's the washer that comes to my mind. Having said that, you know, as Jeff, you rightly said yoga is not about exercise. It's far from exercise, it's not a system for the body alone. It's for the body mind, Spirit bringing about certain a great balance between the three. And I, if I can put it in a very simple way, it's about
controlling the mind. If you do that for a while, and if you do it right, you will have your mind, the monkey mind and a control, which is one of the most Difficult takes to do for anybody. I've been doing some research in the area of wall, yoga, how to use it for, controlling your energy centers in the body. And that's being I don't know whether you've heard, Jeff and Jim about a technology called bio photonics in our body emits photons. In the quantum theory, that was known long ago.
But now it can be seen and if you can measure the photons coming out, the pattern of the photons coming out of your body, you can really measure your physical and your emotional states, physical and emotional states here.
And I'm trying to look at as one of my favorite practices right now and the time that I'm spending and doing some research to see as to how some of the things specially the breathing exercises and yoga, how they can be used to cleanse to to find solution to some of the problems with Body and mind system. So if so, I think it's really interesting, I think it's really interesting, the bio photonics is not something that I had heard about, until you mentioned it.
So I definitely no expert on it. But it seems interesting. Just from a, you know, study perspective, if I wanted to get into yoga, where should I start? Very interesting question. So, all the most popular yoga is is something which is, which is got eight steps. In the first step has nothing to
do with posture signal. First two steps have nothing to do with it. The first step is all about training yourself a little bit and putting your energy of the day in One Direction. So as human beings, what we do we say hey we got to lose some weight, we got to become more healthy and so we go and we join, join the gym and we're spending an hour with that and you come out of there. So the energy is being diverted is taken in One Direction. Action. And you come back and two hours
later you were having a pizza. So, your energy now is traveling in the opposite direction, right? Or you never went to the gym and you're still eating the pizza? Yes. Still eating the pizza or doing something else. So the first step in yoga is to try to channelize your energy in One Direction. That's the first step. And the second one is, once you have been able to do that, then you go and try to look at setting. Some not exactly rules.
But some code of conduct for yourself that the Second Step only in the third step, which is, the first true physical step of yoga. You talk about learning how to sit. And that's the most important that's the beginning. If you're able to sit without any, you know, without moving your body for even two minutes, I think you've attained something. That's the first step in you that discipline that convert
concentration. I would imagine is very helpful as you kind of find some sort of Center, see Cool eyes against. Okay? I know you've been very generous with your time and want to let you get on with your evening. You're joining us all the way from India which is fantastic. So I know we got a lot of folks who are listening in that part of the world that will be interested to hear this conversation. We talked about Perpetual license to shifting to subscription to.
Now, this option of paper use what are some final thoughts that you might have that? The folks listening out there might have been. So as you pointed out I think this This model of purchase is is is the one that is going to. There is no option because the customers need a model like this, this is where the industry is going to go. We are happy that we have set this trend up in the eye in space. But as Jim Riley pointed out, this is going to be fast forward.
And there are three to four years, and I think it would be much more of paper use than subscription that you'll be C. So my Final thoughts would be an advice to my to two areas of the community members and I in to not just not just to the customers but to people who are manufacturing software like us to be looking at it seriously and try to do this over a period of time. So because eventually we got to look at what works for the customer. Not work. What works for us.
And if we look at what works for the customer, things would work out for us. That's what that's our belief in Atlantis. Nobody's buying it node. We're not going to stick around for a while. So it's important. How about Jim final thoughts for this week? Yeah. Just thinking along those lines was you know, when I've worked with clients over time and we get into our what is software going to cost usually there's questions around. Well, how much are you going to use the software?
How many administrators do you have? It's hard sometimes to even get that information, but kind of dialing it back. Like the, the more information you have About how many workflows, how many logins you
have things like that. That's going to give you help you with the predictability thing which I think is probably the biggest hurdle to this model but I think this model would revolutionize things and that in the in the end it's going to put the power back in the hands of those folks who are making the purchasing decisions. So given that. I mean that's my wrap up on this. Or Sation and just wanted to kind of go back to our original point about Gartner in a couple of weeks.
But node you're going to be a gardener I'm planning to be there. Yes. Okay good. So hopefully we can meet in person and other folks who are listening can meet you as well and certainly reach out to us on LinkedIn and and connect. I'm somebody who will accept pretty much every connection that comes through. How about you just yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, definitely. At us, we would definitely want to do fist bumps, whatever the the greeting du jour is the
time. Looking forward to finally meet you face-to-face below which be great. You know, you talked Jim about some of those metrics that are important to kind of figure out the consumption model and my thought is those are things that you should probably already be doing anyway as an IM program. How are you measuring success? Do you have a dashboard that tracks, those sorts of things? Anyway, if you don't think about it, right?
Doesn't doesn't mean you have to have It overnight, and a lot of these things you kind of build up over time, but I think having that dashboard of how many users, you know how many provisioning actions are being taken, how many, it's indications authorizations, you know, things like that.
It's certainly helpful to at least demonstrate, you know, what is going on for my Denny perspective within an organization but I'll leave it. There definitely will be a gardener, you know, ping us. If you're going to be there, we'd love to meet. Come watch us record a show. Come be on the show. Well, I don't know if we have any room slots that Jim's committed me now to an entire week of editing. It sounds like four shows of Wing week, but we'll go ahead and leave it there.
The node, I will leave in our show notes, a link to your LinkedIn, so folks can reach out to you if they've got questions, and I'll definitely put a linked for. I Lantus.com IL EST en tus.com there as well. So people can check out what you guys have going on.
Definitely check out the paper you stuff because it gives interesting the model that you guys have come up with and I see a lot of value in it. I am sure there are folks who are interested they can reach out to you but not if that's cool via our show notes or via LinkedIn. So, With that we'll go ahead and leave it for this week. You can find us on the web identity of center.com.
We're on Twitter at idea. See podcast the live stream will return at some point but we tell how always have our replays on YouTube, idac dot live and with that we'll go ahead and leave it. Thanks everyone for listening and we'll talk with everyone in the next one. Thanks for listening to the identity at the center podcast. If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe and visit us on the web and identity at the center.com.