You're listening to the identity of the sender podcast. This is a show that talks about identity and access management and making sure you know who has access to what let's get started. Welcome to the identity of the sender podcast I'm Jeff and that's Jim. Hey Jim hey Jeff, how are you? Oh not so bad yourself good. But a little bit sad I'm having to go through the process of canceling. My reservations for the identity
versus conference. Just have too much stuff going on and I'm not going to be able to make it and I know I've been telling everyone on the podcast recently that I was going to be there. This podcast is going to go live the day before and I'm very sad that I'm not going to be able to be there in person, but I'm hoping doing Least be able to catch the sessions virtually. We have lots of friends there. I think I've shared, I won't be there by the time.
People are listening. This, I will be neck-deep in boxes. Moving a house moving moving out of my house and into another house the same week. So kind of Bittersweet and was looking forward to it. Especially this being the first conference that's being run by different organization than paying kind of truly separates it from, from, from them and makes a little more vendor neutral method. It wasn't before, but it's been
in a while. I was at RS a few weeks ago, and it was cool to kind of see people there, you know, be able to kind of fist-bump folks that I hadn't seen in a very long time. I did see Vittorio on the street, I think, after we recorded because we recorded on this tutorial is on the shree Bose. You like once-over. Now it's one of those things you're heading your you know every night there's like some sort of activity and I don't know what he's doing is going to
get food or something like that. I was like done for the day and I saw him from a distance. I mean Miss that hair. We can't miss. I heard, yes. I was like, oh, that's what are you guys like? And we were working on something specifically for this show, so
we'll get to that in a second. So I kind of want Harry I fist bump him and say, you know, what's going on in chat for a second and then kind of went on our way is, but that was pretty much like the conference was like, you know, like a 30 seconds to one minute to minute fist bump and then like, hustle and bustle off to the next thing that was out there. But the good news was that you were seeing Victoria on the streets, because he couldn't get a hotel, which I know for sure.
Conferences in the past special, ersa that can sometimes be an issue. It is so hard to get a good hotel for our site. You have to book the day that they announced it, or you are staying far away, you're taking shuttles or yeah, you're just out of luck. Hopefully, you're not crossing the Bay Bridge.
It's a, it's a try to make it but yeah, that's, that's the approach that we talked about, you know, last time we were talking about, this was make sure you book early and book, often hotel rooms are going RSA, that's right. It's all just yeah, this thing that we were talking about with the torrio that I sort of tease the little bit. This actually came as a result of a conversation that you and myself and Andy hindle who was on the show a few weeks ago kind
of we're talking about. I think it was actually even during like one of just kind of like our pre-meeting kind of getting setup and mic check and right you know all that good stuff and we're kind of thinking about as you know, has Has the definition of identity and access management changed. It was like okay well that would be kind of an interesting show because I feel like it kind of has and there's a lot of different terms sometimes used for this right?
Digital identity. I am I DM you know all different color of identity words that could be out there and say oh well maybe we can turn this into a show and my original thought was, hey, let's do like a live panel like, you know, we have this wide stream, I'm having a little bit of will do it mostly because my schedule sucks. It should be stabilizing here in a couple of weeks after I get moved.
But I thought was I think it will be interesting to get, you know, some of the identity as we like to say, you know, on the show in some way and kind of have a Roundtable discussion and then actually you had the brilliant idea was I want to we just asked people the question and have them email in there. Are audio response, so I guess Jim you want to kind of take you take us through the process and how we got to where we are today, and from your perspective.
Yeah, you know, I think you do. No, they're pretty good there. You know, I think what would happen was Andy, kept saying, digital identity, digital identity, and I thought to myself, whatever happened to I am. And so I asked him that question. What's the difference between digital identity and I am and it kind of stumped them, right? And he's like, well this is a longer answer. This would be a longer answer than we have time for in, you know, this little bit of the
episode. So, We make it a follow-up episode and then from there, we kind of, as you mentioned evolve, the idea to this kind of Round Table and we're going to go through the recordings that were submitted in the order they were said to us, so no particular order. But do you want to go through and kind of like mention each person and played the clip and then comment?
Yeah, I will emcee this and so the oh yeah, the way it's worked was, you know, Jim spammed everybody that we could think of sending Male to say hey here's the question if you wanted to record like a two to three minute, sort of answer on what your thoughts are and the question that we posed to everyone, was this, what's the difference between digital identity and identity and access management really kind of
looking to see? You know, what the different responses where we got responses from a few different people. We have Ann Glaser, he's a senior vice president identity product management. At Salesforce, he's a friend of the show been on the show before Sarah such a tea.
She's the head of product. Amazon Cognito another person who's been on the show, actually all these people have gone to show, he's mailer Chief technologist, technology officer at Ford Rock, we've got Adam Michael, who's a data management officer and director for it risk identity and Adjunct professor at Texas A&M University and then our old friend Jamie Lewis grows, who's the vice president Solutions, engineering and
strategy at stadiums. So, now by saying that Jeff you're not calling Jamie old, right? Here's your beautiful friend for a long time. She has and I think I'm, I think I am older than she is. So she I've got her beat on that one, but here's his inches like when she let you listen. So if you're listening to the show and you stick around for when Jamie gets into hers let's just say she ages herself as well.
How about that of her own you know volition whether it is sorry JB don't mean to throw you under the bus but you start off with it. But yeah. And the other thing is cool here is I think really the only answer that Jim has heard so far is Ian's. So the other is Jim hasn't even really kind of listened to and Jamie's is going to be a complete surprise to the first time. So, a lot of this will be a combination of reaction. Mostly on Jim's Park.
I have heard them all because I have added them together and, you know, prepped sort of the Sound Stage here as we're recording. So it'll be interesting. So why don't we go ahead and get started? And the question again, as we ask people was what's the difference between digital identity and identity and access management And this first clip is from Ian Glazer. So at first, I thought that this question.
What's the difference between I am and digital identity was an easy one to answer and then I realized it's absolutely not. And it's the reason why it's not, it's not because if you ask three identity people, what their definition is of a specific identity term. You'll get six answers.
It's because in within the question is actually a bunch of different issues So I think at the surface layer, the difference is in my mind, I am. Although it used to be the way, certainly analyst referred to the General market of digital identity has become shorthand for Workforce, identity, and access management. So I think in sort of more modern parlance, I am is the work force equivalent of Siam. Okay. And so then that's true.
We're left wanting an umbrella term that could cover both Workforce, identity, and Siam and all the other bits that are starting to become integral to the industry. And so to me, digital identity has become that umbrella term problem is that's not entirely ideal. It certainly leaves areas out of the conversation. So for example, if you talk to an identity practitioner Then you say hey do you work on identity theft?
The likely say no that's not Identity or that's not the identity I work on and if you you know, ask another practitioner about you know, how much they do in terms of source, documentation verification for legal identity, bound to a digital credential depending on industry.
And they may say well I don't do that at all and so the identity and identity documents which off Often come from the physical world and now are starting to make their way in the digital world that often gets left out of the conversation to. So the reason why I'm thinking about these things is because boundaries are important in names in this case really come with a set of boundaries and that helps Drive Clarity in the
conversation. Well one thing that that you know I realized was actually a couple years ago Andrew Nash at the time. I think he was with Capital One. Give me a really good talk. That basically said, hey, you and the audience think you're doing identity management. What you're probably actually doing is just user account management and he wasn't being demeaning, he was saying like look the totality of the things that go into.
What many of us do on a day-to-day basis is user account manipulation assignment of title entitlements doing the identity Plumbing but we weren't doing was the more holistic. I have a digital representation of this legal entity and all of the Things associated with it, let's manage those things. Which notionally would be identity management or digital identity management. So coming back around, I think the answer is at the surface level.
I am is now become shorthand for Workforce identity, then all the things associated with a classic Enterprise Workforce, identity, infrastructure and digital identity is the umbrella term for the industry, but I think that's maybe not as exact as it could be. And, you know, Again given the opportunity to talk about definitions. Everybody's got a bunch of opinions. Those are mine. Alright so that was Ian Glaser at Salesforce? What are your thoughts?
Jim. I think that he got to the heart of kind of what I think the difference is, which is that it's a, it's kind of how your its wording around, you know, what is the classification of the industry?
Now, he's saying identity and access management has been Become kind of a focus on the workforce part of this whole digital identity space, whereas I think is kind of like a historical change this happens, like we started out with the industry of identity and access management and yes it was Workforce. And yes you know at the time if you look at the solutions that were on the market, they were identity Management Solutions, wasn't even IGA and their access
Management Solutions that they were. How do you protect your websites? Less about federating out. There's more about protecting the systems that you had so the classification identity and access management did it very well for the time and then as what kind of start to build up in the space kind of grew and added new scope, it kind of stretch and the term identity and access management. I feel like became less descriptive of what this whole Space has become.
Come, which includes customer identity management, which includes self Sovereign, identity, and identity. Verification of these things that no longer to determine identity and access management fit very well. And I think the term digital identity has been around for a while, but people weren't really taking it seriously, until within the last. Let's say, 34 years, where I feel like it's, you know, people are starting to now break from
using I Am I still use? I am but that's kind of the way I am. I still write with a pen on a piece of paper sometimes and the term digital identity is kind of taking over which encompasses this much larger area and I think it's probably just more appropriate. Yeah. One thing that he said that struck me was this delineation between I am as being like Workforce and Siam or customer identity access management.
I know you of I have really kind of figured out some of that stuff as we were kind of talking over the last couple of years. We've started to call it, like, E. I am Enterprise. I am versus Siam or see, I am customer. I am maybe it's not easy. I am maybe it's w. I Am Workforce identity and access management or maybe why I am Prince, I am right, things like that. But I think it is interesting that the definition clearly has changed.
I'm a little surprised, not surprised because we're going to have more More answers here at the perspective that it seemed to me. When I was taking is that I am sort of fits underneath the umbrella of digital identity. I can see a situation where people might have a definition of digital identity as sort of like a Civic or citizen type identity. Will be interesting if he is.
You listen here to some of the other folks that we've got, if you know, how, how close are some of these definitions and how different some of them are, because I think the perspectives really are pretty. Different. Why do we go ahead and get into Sarah's such a tea? Next? She's with Amazon Cognito, we asked her, the question. What's the difference between digital identity and identity and access management? What's the difference between I am and digital identity?
I was tempted to say there is no difference between I and digital identity, and I suspect that's what many experts will tell you, but that's not true. There's a very important and over, which difference, there's a division of the US government called the National Institute for standards and Acknowledge our nests and their job is to measure things. How long is a meter? Ask Nest, how heavy is a kilogram? Ask missed.
Well in the 21st century, they started measuring not just physical things, but digital things like security and identity. They wrote a document called special publication 800-53. The publication outlined a way to measure how strong an identity transaction was and it used in measure, called level of assurance. How sure can I be that the person at the end of the line is who they say they are. R, as that document went into broad use, they found it had cracks in its armor.
It wasn't doing the job that it was intended to do because it was too one-dimensional, and it was one dimensional and exactly, the access that we're focusing on. In this episode, it conflated, I am with digital identity. It said that the strongest transactions have both strong authentication mechanisms and strong identity proofing, meaning that we verified the real-life identity of the person at the end of the line. But that measured me leaves no room. For a very important use case
stronger. The authenticated Anonymous users. Imagine a political dissident who wants to tell the story of what she's experiencing in her country but she needs to keep her identity hidden that her government won't find her. Do we need strong authentication for that person? Absolutely. We need to use the strongest technology we have to make sure that her lines of communication haven't been compromised. Do we need strong identity proofing? Shouldn't person. No identity proofing.
That person could actually compromise her safety. We need strong. I am without strong digital identity. That's one missed hired a team of identity experts, including myself to rewrite the whole concept of identity verification. We throughout the one-dimensional limiter and made
it three dimensional. Now, instead of one level of assurance, there are three identity Assurance level authenticator Assurance level and Federation Assurance level because I am and digital identity are, and must remain different. All right, so what do you think about saris answer? Well, I think that that's a very good use case, right? And I haven't hadn't thought of that. I can see where she's coming
from. Yeah, I mean that, I mean, it's obviously, you know, given the state of the world, right? The the political dissidents and government distances and things like that, that are happening, certainly makes the case for. Okay. So, what is what is addition to definition of digital identity and she's exported it into three dimensions is, are those enough Dimensions? Is there a fourth dimension space and time?
It may be, you know what? Is the the right way to look at or maybe maybe the definition changes based on the use case which might be a little bit tricky to. Yeah I remember in the early days of I am some people kind of making the argument, I'm Jim McDonald. So why can't I just be Jim McDonald whether I'm using my Google login or my corporate login? I'm still the same person. I think the case is Sir.
I was making is that sometimes I don't want you to know that Jim McDonald make this statement because if I speak out I make disappear the next day. So there are times where Anonymous is what I want to be. I want to separate that authentication so my right to access that account from who I am as a person. I think the you know the other aspect to this could be just thinking about.
It is it could be The identity of things which again is kind of fallen into originally fell into I am maybe wasn't the best fit, definitely under the digital identity umbrella but you know, I think that it's it's one of the biggest conundrums of I am or digital identity is does the thing really have an identity? Yeah. And it in the same way as a person with the timing with the the news out of Google, right? With one of the one of the folks in Google saying that they're
aii. This is his Come sentient, or at least appears to be your, some like that. Yeah, I mean, does does a thing have an identity. I mean, clearly there's internet of things. And now, I think we're stretching into the line of digital identity of things. So does a smart thermostat, which clearly lives in the real world, I can touch it. It has its own digital identity on the network, or you know, whatever it may be the platform that it's connected to.
I think I feel like if this was a video podcast, I'd be like using that exploding brain gift right now, we're going to be coming out of the top of your head. Yeah, exactly. All right. Why don't we move to the next one? This is Eve Mahler. She's a chief technology officer at Ford truck. We asked her.
What's the difference between digital identity and identity and access management Identity language has been a contentious subject for a long time thinking back to the beginnings of iiw, the internet identity Workshop, the original effort by that Community was to actually develop a lexicon comprehensive. Lexicon. It was tough going then and I think it's always tough going in this area.
How I see digital identity as a phrase is that it applies to the users of or the interactors with identity. Technology. And I see, I am as being about the implementation of identity technology in whatever guys. So, when it comes to digital identity, the kind of the user perspective, you know, most people interact with identity in a way that actually isn't all that Pleasant identity theft is probably the first thing that comes to mind.
And a lot of times that interaction is actually in an offline fashion versus an online runtime authentication. For example, Fashion. When it comes to, I am that term itself is, is a bucket for a lot of other different things and sometimes they overlap. But I am, sometimes there may be
a little bit apart. So identity management, kind of life cycle, considerations access management, really all the runtime considerations and also governance and administration which gets into the world of really operational things. And there's this phrase that I really like lately bolts, which is business, operational, legal,
technical answer, societal. So that's kind of the game that you get into when you talk about both the above, the water user considerations and the below, the water, implementer considerations one, of the things that I find when I just talked with ordinary people out there who don't do what I do about, what you call the jobs to be done of digital identity. Is that all of the things people expect to get from this sort of Technology, it cross-country. Sweet things businesses want as
well. You know, I have a new Venn diagram about this where, I think, in terms of protection, and personalization, and payment, and people, so there are unique needs among all of those categories and they cross cut quite a lot of things like achieving security is actually something that's welcomed by people. And by businesses, it applies across all of the identity language but I thought that was pretty interesting.
The definition is it? She has for the to, and kind of seems to me like it was it's, you know, changes a little bit, right? Whether your I am or digital identity, what are you thinking? Yeah, it's interesting because going to allow my mental definition to adapt.
As I hear these recordings because there's really, you know, as I was listening to Ian that like you said, I was the only one who listened to you beforehand, kind of saw identity and access management as a subset of digital identity as those listening to Yves like kind of thinking there, too. Separate Concepts rate, identity and access management potentially is something I do with all these processes to, you know, manage who gets access to what which I think is the
traditional definition right? But then, when I think about digital identity, I'm actually thinking about some instantiation of say, apple has this concept of who Jim McDonald is and I can, you know, have apples vision of Jim McDonald but it really Kind of has a border around it and then Google has a different definition of the digital identity for Jim McDonald. And then as Jim McDonald, I've got all these digital identities running around, maybe they all
tie back to me. But essentially, they're like a data set that these companies have about me. They're like a digital fingerprint of me. Maybe they can grant me access to things within their border. Maybe they can grab me to access to things beyond my Border.
So you know, maybe OCTA has that digital Identity or that thumbprint about Jim McDonald and it can pass me on to concur for example but yeah, so so maybe rather than I am being a part of digital identity representing, you know, Workforce or even some set of Technologies. It's it is that Workforce set of Technologies, how I go and
manage. But then the digital Identity is a separate concept which is these companies have this fingerprint this data set about me and that is with digital identity is yeah, I think it's interesting if we take that concept of okay, when it's concept digital identity and separate out from what is identity and access management, it's typically a collection of services that are being done.
Its identity management, its access management privileged access government student Administration, make things that you've mentioned, even even the the The service of running. And I am program is a service within that, and now you're starting to help. People are starting to catch on as like, this is hard to Define because people have different interpretations of, you know, digital identity.
What does it mean? Does it mean your your fingerprint, you know, so to speak online or other digital transactions or is it meant to be the overarching? Well, we know it's more than I am and we need to come out somehow say that. Well, we both do boats you know, I am from an Enterprise perspective but you also do it from a customer side and you know, we do other things other than technology, maybe it's program. You know, does that fit under the bucket or that definition?
I think it's interesting. You know, as we're kind of going
along. I was certainly I certainly had sort of a in my head definition and as I listened to these over and over and over again, stir that through the editing process and prepping the show it. Changed a little bit and now I'll be honest, I'm not sure what to think it's so let's keep going and let's now hear from Adam Michael over at Texas A&M and what his answer was to the question of what's the difference between digital identity and identity and access
management? When I think about the difference between I am and digital identity, I really think
that they are overlapping sets. So I see digital T as being a key component of an overall, I am strategy so digital identity to me and I'm coming from the perspective of a higher education environment, but so much of what we do now, learning and research is moving to an online environment and the ability to authenticate someone and know that, okay, if Joe student is taking a test, we actually have the correct person on the other end of the online resources.
Taking that test, right? It's important that we have an easy way for our students and our faculty to assert their identity, in a digital space. Now that's just step one. Write authentication, and saying that this person actually is who they say they are. But when we talk about, I am it goes beyond that and we have this concept of giving them
access to resources. So once we've verified their identity in a digital space, we To be able to grant them access to the right things in the right way and the right time, right? So that's the access component in I am. And so I really see digital identity and I am as being very closely related and maybe even overlapping sets I am being the superset of something. A concept that digital identity
fits inside, all right? So remember when I was saying maybe digital identities overall Adam, when a different way, He sees it the opposite where digital identity is a component of identity and access management, which I can kind of get behind as well. What are you thinking? Yeah, because show you that. There's there's no wrong answer here. It's it definitely makes you think because I think it kind of even brings in that concept of
the thumbprint. Now I assert or I authenticate myself, is I am Jim McDonald. Now, you can take that thumbprint of data and you know, go go ahead and Associate it with me through whatever interface I'm using. And when he thinks about identity and access management, it's all those processes that are included. So, I mean, that's definitely a valuable perspective. It. I think what's so interesting is
like that. You can have two people who live in this world independently come up with, totally Opposite, you know, configurations of which one encompasses the other. That that's why I think it is. Such a good question. Well, here's another wrinkle throught. So, the people that we asked, Adam is the only one that's actually in the business side of is practitioner is not, yeah, he's a practitioner, right? He's not a vendor, he's not an
identity person. For example, right, he has more on the business delivery of identity Services, rather than a product. T', person which Ian, Sarah Eve and Jamie coming up, are all more on the identity product side of things. So it is interesting to hear sort of like the business definition or do business answer. You know, from someone like that to say, okay. Well here's here's how the business of Senate, which I thought was interesting.
Yeah, I think one of the things that I also have was thinking about is, you know, especially like Ian's case and Yves case, because I think the first time, Met the two of them is close to 20 years ago at identity and access management conferences and they were part of this identity arathi, right?
And there's many other folks who were kind of there in that is that I am was this, you know, especially conferences, were people really talking about was what is an identity like these really philosophical conversation? And I've been in it at that point for probably about, you
know, eight years. I was like, I've never run into Into a new look with in it wears like all about are so much of it was about the philosophy of what we're doing here and so that's really what the roots of I am. And so I kind of heard that a lot in their answer as well as kind of that coming from those roots. Deep thinkers deeper thinkers. Yeah, for sure. All right.
Why don't we go to Jamie Lewis Grace and her answer to the question of, what's the difference between a digital identity and a dating access management? And she's from sabian's, I was asked what's the difference between I am and digital identity? Well, this is a lot to unpack in a very short amount of time, because I've been at this for a very long time. And I've seen the industry evolve, I am Identity and access
management. So early on I am was often synonymous with authentication it then pushed into automation of processes password management efficiency gains reduction of cost. Ultimately I saw I am become the umbrella of Technologies and policies to manage access and mitigate risk. Inclusive of not only authentication single sign-on and multi-factor but then Started to extend into privileged access management identity governance and administration risk profiling.
Authorization are back a back P vac and the focus was really always all in the workforce at least from from my experience and so that brings me to digital identity.
So digital identity has extended Beyond just the carbon-based identities of our Workforce, our vendors, our suppliers, our Contractors. It's encompassing of b2c, B2B G to C, but also was very important to understand is it's taken on the Silicon identities to those not, well managed service accounts and included, certificates Keys devices,
workloads containers. It goes on and on think about it, as you know all of the machine related identities that are out there and what's happening is with digital This formation initiatives there is a exponential growth of connected devices and these machine identities use to manage process Automation. And it's really creating that larger surface and and threat attack Vector, really opening organizations up to the Cyber vulnerabilities.
So you know, when we also think about digital identity often we also think about the specific personal data So whether it be personas on social media, whether it be someone's online bank account access to Amazon Netflix, that's all digital identity as well. And then, there's that digital blueprint that really is surrounding us. We rely on it. It might be the nest thermostat in your home. Your home Wireless, the security
systems that surround you. The list goes on and on personal identity in the digital format is as Limitless. Our data's continually analyzed and it's, it's used, it's used against us. It positions, adds to us, it sells to us. It's funny. Just the other day. My 84 year old father-in-law, was essentially taken advantage of. Because he did an innocent search at the library, looking
into knee pain. And before, you know, it he's purchasing something online that, you know, has little information about it, but it was served up to him through an ad. So there's just so much Much more I could go on and on about and discuss. But I want to end by saying that, you know, right now, for personal digital identity and the information that's used. There's very little control.
So as we go forward in a world of evolution, you know, I think that the future is really going to demand better protection and controls of the personal information and with that, you know, in the future maybe my father-in-law won't blindly purchase some Misguided product for his knee pain. So I hope I have answered your question today. All right, well, first of all, a couple notes, a hopefully her father-in-law's knee is feeling better. Second of all. I'm going to give her bonus
points for using the term. Carbon-based life-forms is part of her answer and then third circling back to the very beginning when age was brought into it. She's the one who said she's been doing this for a long time, not me, there you go. I think it's, I think it's interesting that she brought up the Privacy angle and the really kind of private think it's that kind of go hand in hand with
those some of those. And it's the first time that that has been mentioned in this conversation was ownership really of the attributes of the digital identity and how they're used. So, yes. And so here's what I was thinking as I was listening to Jamie, is that there's two ways? This question could be interpreted, one is, what do people mean when they say, digital identity versus identity and access management? So in other words, when people use the Those terms, what are
they trying to differentiate? Or when you hear those terms? What do you think of? And then there's the question of what should those terms mean, right? And I think if you answer that it might be a different answer than the previous question. So as I've been listening to these responses, I'm getting more and more on the side that digital identity is really this thumbprint Of who of data about
you. Now, one thing that I've run into overtime in the identity and access management consulting or digital identity Consulting, whatever you want to call it right is Winters. That data, stop being, I am data, right? So when what data is I and actually one thing I would differ differentiate from what Jamie said, but I first got into identity and access management it seemed like it was all about Directory synchronization and ldap data, and we got all the cell data.
How do we manage the ldap data? And then the applications are going to bind to the ldap and authenticate or of an access management system that binds the of that but is all about directories. But you know what used to be the boundary of what was identity data or digital at your digital Identity. Or I am data was what was in the directory? I think that what we found with virtual directories is now you Can expand that out and they
take it to another sub match. If we had Dan Creed from meta, answer this question, what is the digital identity? What it, what is your digital identity thumbprint well, now it's, you know, all these different data points that you can, you couldn't even imagine where are you? And you think, well, maybe that's marketing data to me, that's what like the digital identity data is, where's the identity and access management is what is the data that? What you should have access to great.
So one, what is my credential data? What is the data that is needed? For me to authenticate myself? And then what defines? What's going to give me access? It could be attributes for attribute based authentication, or it could be roles and things like that. But that is my, I am data but it seems to me the digital identity goes beyond like what are my shopping preferences?
What is my Location, you know, especially like I was at Starbucks the other day or every time I go to Starbucks down if you get in the drive thru drive by it, it's like, you know, on your iPhone. It pops up with your Starbucks app. Like, you know, you can just push this button and go in and and have a latte if you'd like. So all of that data analysis is kind of extending its marketing data but it's kind of becomes your digital identity.
I don't know. It's so to me that that could be What actually is a digital identity versus I am not necessarily how the terms you because I believe the terms are being used as a replacement. I think that when you look at consulting firms they're just replacing their identity and access management practice with digital identity. You're saying yeah we have a digital identity practice. You know five years ago would have been called their identity
and access management practice. So to me dish identity is replacing identity access management from lexicon standpoint, but I think that they should have a deeper meaning. That's interesting. I think I think you're totally right, especially that last example, there are like Consulting, what do you call? What is it? You say you would do around here? Well, what are you? I'm, I am consult a. Yeah, yeah.
Or I'm a digital identity consultant or two people, you know, how do I, how do I name the practice that I'm, you know, starting and running up is I am. Is it digital identity? Is it secure digital identity? Is it just identity? I don't know. I think it's interesting. I think having listened to, you know, five really smart people and then us listen to, you know, pontificate on this is, I think the definition morphs and changes on a couple things. It's the first is, who were you talking to?
And the second is, what is the point that you're trying to get across is if I'm talking to someone who doesn't know anything? NG about identity and access management or digital identity, I'm going to try and keep it simple and I might use vaguer language that you know, is maybe easier to understand or try to articulate versus hey Jim. Let's go talk about why we should be using you know, adfs for authentication and then you know that's what we should. That's a bad example. Sorry.
She recently using modern standards for authentication but you know having a more technical conversation and talking through identity and access management versus just this Umbrella of identity, which has other connotations to it to write, especially in the physical world with gender and things like that. So now we're like, okay, well, where is the line for identity? I don't know what to tell you.
I think I went into it. Originally with the idea of like, okay, well, I see, I am as a subset of this broader thing called digital identity visual identity is the concept of power. We managing identity and access management in a digital way, whatever that looks like having listened to Adam like, okay, I can certainly see that where its flipped on its head in my world and like, okay, well digital identity sort of a component of identity and access management.
If I say, I think about it from a service standpoint. What is it that we're actually offering and then you brought me back when you set up your on the Consulting side, how would you explain what you do? Okay. Well I run an identity practice. And I think that's how I've been introducing really kind of myself. Is you know, talk to me about identity and that's kind of where I'd left it so far but I'm sure it will continue to evolve
over time. I think, I think what's fascinating is, you know, we got five expert opinions and then ours and between the seven of us. None of us really had the same answer which I think is why this made it made it made the question. So, interesting, when we originally talking with Andy about it, a few weeks ago and I know my Three evolved throughout the show. And I bet you if Ian was listening to, there's other definitions. There'd be things that folks had said that would, you know, as
the conversation evolved? He probably would evolve his definition as well, because those perspectives, but I think the end of the day, we did not solve the question, right? We got, we just showed that this is Something that's in flux something that's happening. I think, is a fantastic format for raising some questions like this in the future. And I mean, I'd love to hear from our listeners. If this format resonates with you, we can go ahead and do some
more episodes like this. Yeah, I mean, I think it's easy enough to, you know, record on your phone, just a simple audio clip. If you've got a definition of, or at least an answer to the question of what is the Between digital identity and identity access management. Is there one, feel free to record something and tag us on.
Hit us up on LinkedIn. You can attach the file there or we can figure out how to get over to us but I think it's something continue on. I think with identity versus hitting this week you know a lot of these folks that we heard from today - us will be there, you know, ask them, you know, what do they need about some of the stuff because I think it'll
be interesting to hear. I think it's only right that if I think if we had all these folks in the room I'd be willing to bet some parts of each definition would have evolved just within the last 45 minutes as we've been talking here. Absolutely. Yeah, so like any good podcast we didn't we didn't offer any answers, we just talked about it for 45 minutes, I think, you know people can kind of figure out and even if we don't have the answer, maybe what we did is
we sparked an idea, right? In someone's listening out there saying, oh, I never really thought about it from that angle. I don't think there's a right answer or wrong answer. I think your is just here's how I represent. You know, this specific question
and I think I think that's okay. I just got to be Of about who you're talking to and what's the context of the conversation, because sometimes things can get lost in translation, but I don't know if you're necessarily needs to be a right answer, right now. Does it correct? So I think your robes out and I think that was kind of what we expected out of this. And we got what we hope for, we got what we asked for and but like I said, I think this is a great format so we come up with
some other questions, you know. I think that we could pursue this Format again. Yeah, definitely. There's a lot of fun to kind of put this together. So, all right. So why do we go ahead and start to wrap things up? I was thinking about, you know, what's our end on a lighter note for this episode? And I want to jump on what Jamie was talking about with her father-in-law and knee pain and some sort of, I don't know order, purchase whatever that you may or may not be helpful.
Hopefully, it was, but you never know. So, here's my question to you, Jim. What is the worst or strangest online? Add, you will admit to that. You have been served based on, you know, browser, cookies or session history, or whatever. It may be. Well I'm not going to even go close to the that I would admit to kind of thing because I think I gave you that escape hatch just in case.
Yeah, right. So I mean, I wouldn't call myself a conspiracy theorist, but this one of the strangest things that happened to me, was, I grew up in Philadelphia, my brother, obviously grew up there. As well and I was he still lives there and I was visiting him and he lives in an older house which that the townhouse style buildings there they call them row homes. It was a row home and there's probably 75 100 years old and it go into his basement and he's got this big plastic sink next
to his washer and dryer. At least always call them utility sinks. Yeah, that was a beauty utility square, right? Yeah. It's like a dip Square. Deep bass. Yep. And I said I haven't seen one of those in years. Mike yet. You know this utility sink and follow. We had a whole conversation about it and I really hadn't seen one in years. A couple days later and advertisement showed up on my laptop in Amazon, like it Amazon
ad for utility sink. And so, the conspiracy theorist in me, says, somehow, my phone was listening heard utility sink since some kind of sold, some kind of message to Amazon or whatever. And they served me up in that. Did that happen? Probably not. Maybe just triangulated that I was in this area because I do think that, you know, location is something that can be served up, potentially sold to a vendor.
And that maybe there were a lot of utility sink purchases within that area because I would bet you every row home and that whole neighborhood have these utility sink. So you know, that's probably what happened. But yeah, it got me thinking like okay it's my phone spying on me. Yeah we've heard I think I've heard that before too. Like pit level is my phone's by me. Could it be your brother or someone you know was searching for utility sinks for something
replacement repair whatever. / and because at no, you know, the powers that be know that that's her, brother's. I got a little baby, you might be interested in this as well, right, or whatever way it looks like mine is weird and strange slightly offensive, and definitely creepy. This, I'll never forget this because this was right around
the pandemic. Kind of beginning I want to say we're about six months into it. It feels like it was ages ago but I guess that would have been what 20, 20 gruffly. So I want to say it was probably like around June, maybe July were a couple months in a lockdown, people, worried do any things and for whatever reason I was scrolling through I remember was Facebook or Instagram is one of those two and you know you get as all time for just weird stuff and stuff that they think
it might be interested surf. Of course, you know watching your browser history and so forth and I don't know why this came up, but it was a it was a ad for I don't know. The right terminology is but it's like you know, it's Banks.
Our where it's like tights for generally for people to like look like they're Slimmer. Oh, Come usually you'll see like, you know, I'm sure it's for both sexes, but the ones that I know of are Spanx are like for women where, you know, they put it on, it kind of Slim's the figure and so forth. And this was the equivalent. But for men as like Spanx underwear or compression thing that good supposed to go up and over your belly to try and compress things.
I was like, what the Because this seems and then I got offenders like, well, I okay, yeah, I could lose a few pounds and yeah, you know, like, huh. I don't know how they are. You know, they decided that I was in that other than okay, well here's a person who hasn't left his house probably like two or three months, they probably need help. You know, we've noticed that there's been a lot of doordash delivery, a lot of pizza delivery.
Yeah, exactly. So I was I was offended mostly He amused mostly and slightly perturbed that. Uh you know how dare you make that recommendation but I'll never forget it. I was like all right well that's weird whatever just to get you back I'm going to order to Frosty's for milk from Wendy's right now. Exactly. Well I'm gonna start wearing them. I guess I got to get the maximum value out of it. Exactly.
So I never did order them but even though I probably could use them, I thought that was Interesting as well. Just from a timing perspective and I wonder what in went into the decision. For whatever logic was used to run that ad location. Had to change mostly at home. A lot of food, deliveries pandemic, I don't know, you know, whatever it may be but I'll never forget that. I think that was just the weirdest thing. I've been served up so far. Was that it an Amazon, a door?
Was that? Oh, you said that was it? I think. It was either Facebook or Instagram, I can't remember which one it was, and the same companies like this is really matter but, you know, I do remember where exactly I saw it. But usually my Facebook ads are around like audio equipment because that's what I'm looking for the podcast, right? Or backpacks. I have like a bag collection, I'm a collector of like, you know, nice backpacks, things like that. So usually that's what I guess pan with.
But this one was just so far out of like the blue. I just didn't, I didn't get And I remember showing it to my white to I was like leave us and she's kind of like smiled. I was like okay well screw you then to it's okay you know your buddy look good more of those. Yeah exactly. Alright let's go ahead and wrap it up there. I really want to thank Ian. Sarah Eve, Adam and Jamie.
For taking the you know the few minutes or however many other long, it took, you know, it's a to get that stuff sent over to us. I thought made for really interesting episode. I think if you're listening to this and you're identifiers, you know, Try to you know, fist bump those folks. So if they're around and let him know you heard us here and ask them to kind of articulate what they meant and see if if their position is changed at all.
But I think that would be interesting and if you've got a take on it that you think is is different, send it to us as well. Will be happy to play it on the show and serve discuss it so we can go with that. Before we wrap up any final thoughts for this week, Jim, no sir. I'm not going to see everybody out there that I did a verse but next year and, you know, I think it's good. Fantastic conference. I'm really so depressed about not being there.
Yeah, the energy. Level was pretty good at RSA to think people are ready to be back. I'm going to try to make it out to Gartner in August in Las Vegas, so maybe maybe that'll be my next one. After my move here, takes place over the next week or so. So alright. I'm going to go ahead and leave it there. Thank you all for listening. You can find us on the web at etiquettecenter.com.
We're on ER at IDC podcast the live stream that we do at idac2 live is still on Hiatus while I figure out my life my schedule but it will be back at some point and with that we'll go ahead and leave it for this week. Thanks for listening and we'll talk with you all in the next one. Thanks for listening to the identity at the center podcast. If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe and visit us on the web and identity at the center.com.