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Performance and Wellness by IDMS Coaching. I'm your host Samita Jayanti. Today we have Bernardo Ferdman joining us. Bernardo's a seasoned leadership and organizational development consultant with over thirty five years of experience. He's passionate about creating inclusive workplaces and edits inclusive leadership and diversity at work. His expertise in coaching, consulting, and facilitation makes him a sought after advisor in the field. Bernardo, Welcome to
the show. Thank you. It's so good to be here. Bernardo. In my introduction I obviously focused on the obvious things, But what didn't I say that you'd like our listeners to know about you? Thank you, Thanks
for that opportunity. I think, as you said, I'm really passionate about inclusion, really creating a world and a place is to work where more of us can really bring all of our energy, our identities, our power and do things that are meaningful for us and for the world, do things that matter together and also a more just world right as well as more inclusive. And so to do that, I work with leaders and organizations to bring inclusion
to life. To make it real in our mindsets, our interactions and behaviors, our systems, and doing that means really connecting to who we are. So I think it's so important to talk about ourselves, you know, to really ground ourselves in our backgrounds, our histories, our identities. So just a little bit about that. In relation to me, I'm originally from Argentina. I was born in Argentina. As I like to joke, at the top of the world, right, it's to shift our mindset about the world
and what's on top and what's in the bottom. Right. I immigrate to the United States with my family in nineteen sixty six when I was seven years old, so do the math. I'm almost sixty five, so that's another identity. And in New York we lived in Queens That's where I learned the English, the Queen's English, I like to joke, although that joke doesn't work anymore, you know, then the sink or swim approach at the time.
And then when I was eleven, we moved to Puerto Rico, so I had to learn a new kind of Spanish, new kind of English. Also, I'm Jewish. My family was in Argentina in the eighteen nineties. So im fourth generation in Argentina, and so I was a minority there, and then in the United States, I was not only a minority as a
Jewish person, but also among Jews. So I've always been really conscious of the complexity of identity, the varieties of any particular identity, what it's like to be an immigrant, just how life affects our opportunities and our paths.
I was a beneficiary of the nineteen sixty five immigration law in the United States that allowed people to come basically with a job offer and get a visa as my father for all of us, and so people who are crossing the riot are not all that different in some ways and their search for opportunity, but they're living in a different system that makes it harder for them than it was
for us at the time. Also, my middle class background made a difference to the fact that my father was a professional, you know that kind of thing. And so in Puerto Rico, I relearned Spanish, but with a slightly different variety, right, and so a lot of adaptation in my life. I'm a psychologist by training, have a PhD in psychology from Yale University,
did that in the nineteen eighties. I was a professor for most of my career, for about thirty they're almost thirty two years, first at the University at Albany State University of New York, and then at the California School of Professional Psychology, where I left at the end of twenty seventeen as a distinguished Professor Emeritus and went full time into consulting, which I've been doing that in my whole career, but since the end of twenty seventeen, I've been
doing full time and I work with all kinds of organizations to really, as I said, to bring inclusion to life from a systemic perspective, from a learning perspective, really at all levels of the organization, and really to foster inclusive leadership, which we can talk about, I'm sure, Hich we'll talk
a lot about. Yeah, fantastic, so Bernardo. To start us off, I wanted to show our listeners a short video of yours where you talked about inclusion from the perspective of the individual, right, And I love what you told us about yourself because many times I think people just don't take the time to understand the experiences and the background of each individual because they are such a driver in who we are and how we behave and how we react to
both people on situations. So let's take a quick look and I see the experience of inclusion at the individual level as the basic element of inclusion. I experience inclusion when I feel safe and engaged, when I sense that I belong and that I can make a difference, When I feel trusted, valued,
respected, and supported. When I believe that I can be fully myself and that I can contribute to my group and to the organization, and that I'm empowered and growing into my best self without compromising or losing important aspects of who I am. And it's not enough for me to experience this. I need to see that other people like me and other people who are part of multiple
identity groups are also experiencing inclusion. But I do. In the video, you talk talked about the basic elements of what allows an individual to feel included. You work with a lot of companies and individuals. Give us two examples of environments where individuals do feel included, and what are the facets or features of that culture that enable that. You know, I think it varies from person to person. I think you mentioned that how it's individualized, and I
think that's so important. There isn't one size fits all in this right. Inclusion, as I try to explain, is constructed in every interaction. Right, we have to really figure out what's going to work for each person. You know, I'm left handed, and so what works for a right handed person is not going to work for a left handed person, just at a very simplified level, right, But we're much more complex than that. We have so many different identities. But as I mentioned in my introduction, what
it means to be Jewish for me is different than someone else. What it means to be Latino is different for me than another Latino. Even though we share some things, we're also different. And so an environment that foster's inclusion has to make space for that, not to over categorize people, but also to honor those identities, to make space for the different ways in which we express our connections to our group memberships and identities and backgrounds. And so I
think making space to inquir into that. Being feeling safe is so important, right, creating physical and psychological safety for the self, but also for members of one's group as well. It's not enough for me to feel personally safe, physically and psychologically. Other people who I feel are like me in some way also need to feel that. And I need to have some sense of
involvement in the collective, right, it has to matter to me. I have to have some influence on decision making, even if things don't go my way. Does my voice matter? Am I respect it and valued? And can I be authentic and bring my whole self to work? And so the conditions that create that, that's what we need to so look at. And it starts with those conversations that people have with their supervisors, with their colleagues,
and the space that the system creates for those conversations. Anyway we can get into that, but those are sort of the basic parts for me. No, I'm glad you brought that up, because you know, obviously we're
a coaching company. We're huge believers in the fact that leadership fundamentally has really shifted over these last ten or fifteen years, right, And the big shift is that the obligation and responsibility requirement, you know, whatever word one wants to use that a leader has of you know, any team, at any level of the organization to take the time to understand each individual on their team,
build a connection with them, understand who they are. And this really gets into you know, for a while the sort of professional cultural zeitgeist was work is very separate from the personal and so they shouldn't, you know, kind of interact in the workplace. But that's just not the case, right, because we bring our whole selves to work. We don't leave like half
of ourselves at home every day. So tell us a little bit about because so many of our listeners, I think, you know, struggle with this that the role of a leader fundamentally has really shifted and that leader has to be humanistic and pathetic and take the time to relate to each individual one on one. Yeah, I think that's true. I don't think that's a new idea. If you think of a theory why versus theory X and that kind of thing, that you have a transformational leadership. I mean, we've been
on these themes for a long time. In some ways. I think what's different is paying attention to the connection to our different identities and to the systems,
systems of oppression or exclusion, ways in which those are covert. Right in twenty twenty, I think there was a broader rediscovery for many people of that process right of you know, when there was a kind of racial reawakening after George fullyg was killed, many people, I mean, some of us have been in this field for a very long time, and it wasn't new. It's something we've seen happening and that we've worked to address for a long
time. But I think that's the additional piece that I think is so important
in leadership context. And by the way, you know, we're talking about leaders people who are perhaps in positions of authorities, I think what we're referring to, but I like to talk about leadership, you know, is it something that everyone can manifest in some way, to really manifest inclusive leadership, which is really about, as I said, bringing inclusion to life, making it real at all levels of the system, in those interpersonal interactions, in
giving people space to be authentic by modeling it, by inquiring and being curious about others, making it not only okay but necessary to have a space where we can have that feeling of not separating parts of ourselves. Right, there's still a zone for privacy. There are things that maybe we don't necessarily want to or need to be talking about all the time, but we need to be able to adjust to each other, to the realities of life. As
when we prepared for this today, we checked in with each other. We got to know each other little bit. Where are we right now, what's happening in our lives that would help us really be fully present in this conversation.
So that's the kind of sharing that I think is so important, sometimes not the kind that's virustic or exploitative, but the kind that helps people feel grounded and whole in a way where they can connect to their strengths and their hopes and what they're contributing to the whole in a way that's connected to who they are, as opposed to feeling like there's some stranger or have to adapt, and that feeling of having to adapt to go into that discomfort is often
stronger for people and groups that have not been represented or that are considered weird or exotic or different. Right, And sometimes people look similar to people around them, but they have differences. Maybe they have a different family situation, maybe their sexual orientation is different than others, Maybe they have a different history, maybe they went through some trauma in their past. Maybe they're you know, have a neurodiverse, neurodiversity. So there's many things that are not often
seen. And even if the things that are seen or not, you know, if you just go with some automatic assumption about what that means, you could be wrong. And so the leadership imperative is to allow space for that those differences and that individuality of that expression, but without losing sight of the fact that we are connected to those many identities and they are different for people in some systematic ways that have led to you know, power differences, even
the ability to express themselves. You know, and we've heard from many people who say, you know, it's idea of bring your whole self to work. It's not as easy for some people as brothers, because when they do that, they get shut down, right, And so I love two things that you just said in particular. You know, one is being a leader or the word leader is different from leadership, which everyone can manifest and demonstrate.
And the other is that it isn't always about the visible but also about the invisible and the lived experiences that people have which are very instrumental to who they become and who they are and how they act. Right. Yeah, and so you mentioned coaching and I think in that context it's particularly important. I coach a fair number of people leaders and this is a big theme. Right. Whether we're explicitly focusing on diversity and inclusion or not, it's still
relevant, right. The idea of being an inclusive, exclusive leadership is relevant even in organizations that don't have a formal diversity and inclusion or equity initiative. It's this idea of really, as you mentioned, individualizing our interaction with people in a way that helps that where there's self insight. So part of the coaching process for me is helping people to give them permission to talk about these things, to make those connections, to not shout out part to themselves,
to go into that vulnerability earlier in our careers rather than late. They know.
For me, it took a long time to feel more grounded in myself, to give myself permission to come out more fully as who I am, to not feel like there's necessarily a danger in that, or even if there is, that it's better than hiding out because I spend so much of my life just trying to fit in right and to meet other people's expectations, and that doesn't get my best self and so part of the leadership, part of coaching is helping people bring that out of themselves and then model that for others.
Right to create that safe and inviting space for others so important. So I want to quote a short excerpt for you and for our listeners from an article in The Guardian that I was reminded of as I was getting ready for our conversation today. It dates back to January twenty twenty, and this is the quote developing human minds are like sponges, and ours were submerged in ever
more individualistic language. Phrases such as unique, personal self, me and mine were used with increasing frequency in lyrics, TV shows and books, and as an aside, I would add social media to this. Right, this immersion took its toll, and analysis of data from almost eighty countries shows how the
majority have shown market increases in individualistic attitudes over recent decades. And the study that they're referencing was a twenty seventeen research paper titled Global Increases in Individualism and it looked at fifty one years of data. You know another data point in the US, when I contrasted to Europe and many other parts of the world, we have no societal tradition of public service. Right. And when I say public service, I don't mean everybody needs to go serve in the armed
forces. It could be teaching at a school, it could be working at a local city office of some kind. Right, any kind of public service, and the absence of it in the US is a really marked contrast with many other parts of the world. I would argue that that builds community, and builds civic responsibility, and creates some blue and fabric among us. So I really struggle sometimes with the idea that inclusion focuses so much on the individual
and their sense of belonging. And I'm really curious for your views, because you spend so much of your time steeped in this, working with people on this. That is it at all unintentionally? Perhaps? Right? Life is all about unintended consequences driving us apart in some way. It's an interesting conundrum. I think it's possible if it's framed that way, If inclusion is framed
us let me just do whatever I want, whenever I want. I think we're in trouble, not only all of us, including the person who is doing that. I think inclusion is more complex than that. It's a systemic process. It's really it works at different levels. We talked about the individual experience of inclusion, but we have to look at both that, what leads to that and what it leads to And I think if we're trying to create more experiences of inclusion for more people, the paradox is that we have to
adapt to each other, right. I mean, I talk about this in the context of comfort and discomfort. It's one of the paradoxes that I've written about and talk about a lot. There's at least three that I've really explained in detail, but I think in general there's a lot of them. This idea that there's seemingly contradictory elements that are really part and parcel of the phenomenon,
even though they feel contradictory. And so comfort and discomfort is one key one there, And so we want to create more comfort for more people. So I feel free to be myself, to bring that whole self as you talked about, to feel more integrated as a person, rather than split apart from parts of myself, to tap into not only what makes me who I am, but where my strengths lie and what my hopes and contributions are meant to be so in that sense, Yes, we need to focus on ourselves.
We need to help people develop into who they are, not who somebody else imagines them to be. Right at the same time, there's two things that come up with that. One is that the more that I do that, the more that we create that space, and more I'm going to run into people who are different, who feel weird to me, who are unique in some way, who don't fit my understanding of what you know, the typical thing is, and who might feel deviant, hopefully statistically and not morally.
And so I'm going to have more discomfort, not less right. And so I to both how do I have both more comfort and more discomfort? And also how do we spread together? How do we together spread that discomfort around more equitably? As I said before, those of us who come from some minoritized identity or who you know, have not don't fit the standard norm of what's expected or whatever, may feel more discomfort than someone who just moves
around blissfully without really thinking about it. Right where they don't have to think about, Okay, where am I in today and who am I today? They just do themselves, whereas for some people that constantly have to think about what am I? What am I dressing? What am I wearing? Can I talk about that or not? So that we want more comfort for those people, and the people who have been so blissful, we want some discomfort for them. That's a privilege that we need to really understand. Right.
The power to sort of define reality is something that we have to spread around, right, and so it's about balancing that equation of comfort discomfort. But it's not it's goods. They're going to be in constant tens for everyone, right, And so we have to really think about that. How do we become comfortable with the discomfort of inclusion, not just assume that, Okay, everybody's going to just do whatever they want, whenever they want. That's the
other piece is that inclusions not about anything goes. We really have to think about what does it mean to be part of a group, a community, a society where we are having those differences, where we believe they're important. Where you know, in the United States, the motto is a plural busunum from many one. What does that really mean? Does that mean we're all going to homogenize? I hope not that's really not how I understand that.
I think what it means is that we maintain the many and by strengthening those many different strands, identities, perspectives, is experiences, we are stronger. We are a better one, right, which has all these components, like a quilt or a tapestry. That's the metaphor that I really like. You don't lose the strands or the components, but it makes much more beauty and strength together, right. I mean, I don't know if that fully addresses
your question about individualism. I think that's a larger conversation because it has to do with sort of what's happening, you know, sociologically, demographically, so many other factors, some of which I'm not an expert on and I'm an observer, but I think they're important in this context. Right, when we're coaching, when we're trying to work towards strategically or otherwise to create inclusion in organizations, we have to be aware of that what are people bringing in,
what's the larger culture, what's being imported, and what's being exported. Oftentimes it's in the workplace that people learn how to engage across differences. Right, We're more likely to encounter differences sometimes than in our sort of segregated existences,
right or particularized. And so there's things that can happen in workplaces. There's leadership that can occur that will help the larger context right to maybe develop more of that notion of service or at least collaborativeness, right, co construction and participation. That's a hard one. It's a big challenge these days, but I think a lot in the workplace. You can't get anything done without collaborating, a partnership and complex organizations. It's a puzzle that we're all putting together.
And if people just think me, me, me, it's not going to work. Yeah, we can't do it all ourselves or know everything ourselves. We really depend on each other. Yeah, absolutely, I couldn't agree more. So. I want to show our listeners another short video of you talking about how the role of every leader is determinative in creating an inclusive culture.
Let's take a quick look and listen. Now, this model illustrates what I mean by systemic and integrative inclusion involves multiple levels of analysis and action. I've already talked about the individual level of the experience of inclusion, at the base of that model. What happens at the higher levels flows down, so that inclusive ideologies and values in society can affect how organizations affect address inclusion,
as well as how we incorporate inclusive climates and that context. That organizational context affects how leadership is defined, what kind of leadership are we striving for, what kind of leadership is considered worthy, and also how leadership is expressed, and what leaders do to be inclusive, and that in terms of effects the norms and behaviors that get manifested in our work groups, and how each of us demonstrates inclusive behavior or doesn't towards each other, it also flows back,
so it's down and up. My individual experience and my behavior can affect the norms and the values in the groups that I'm part of and how those particular groups function. So Pertado I mentioned earlier that we define leaders as really anyone at any level of the org chart that is managing a team effectively. Right, and you and I both know that leadership has never before in our lives
been more important than it is now. Right, the world is in a very unsettled state, and time and again we see you know, either good leadership or the lack thereof affect every facet of our society. So I think it's really important for our listeners to understand in terms of the paradox that you were talking about earlier, which I love the comfort and discomfort coexisting and getting comfortable with that coexistence of those two things. What are the other two paradoxes
that you mentioned, and I love you to tell our listeners about. Sure. The first one is really about this idea of whether when we are part of a collective, do we just let it all hang out or do we completely change and adapt? Right? And it's really we have to both more fully bring ourselves and we also have to change in some way to be part of that collective, right, And so's that's I think the first one. It's this idea of like belonging, Like what does that really look like?
What does it mean to belong? How do I have to do myself? And what do we demand of each other in terms of those changes? Right? If I you know, I mean, let's say I just love to hang out in bathrooms all day, but I'm wearing a shirt today, you know for this UF I mean, that's not the I'm just using that as an example. But you know, so the question is how can I do that in a way that feels authentic enough, right? But that's it's related
to what you said earlier about how do we do stuff together? There's always mutual adaptation, even to people, even you know, I imagine twins have to adapt to each other anytime we're with a different person. I mean even maybe sometimes even to ourselves right at different times. But it's just a nature.
Part of human existence is mutual adaptation. The challenge is that when there's power involved, right, and some people have to adapt and others don't, or when you know, some people lose their potential contributions to the group.
So this is not just an individual challenge, it's a collective challenge. How do we create a space where we find that balance right between those two imperatives that really coexist total you know, assimilation, which I don't think is helpful, or just totally letting it all hang out no matter what, regardless of how it affects other people the situation and what it contributes or doesn't. So those are the extremes that are not helpful. That connects to the second paradox.
Which has to do with boundaries and norms. You know, inclusion is not as I said about letting everything go. You need a clear sense of what is it that people are being included into. You know, in the United States, I mentioned the motto when people come to the United States, what does it mean to be an American? Right now? If you only let people who were here before nineteen twenty you know, and historically define that,
I think we lose something. But if you're constantly changing it every second, that's also problematical something. So it's that tension between adapting to the changes in ourselves and each other, as well as the composition of groups, which needs to happen, but not doing it so often is so much that we just can't get any work done. So this is an ongoing tension as well.
So if you know, we plan something for today and we were a certain way of doing this and suddenly our conditions change, do we have space to even talk about it? And this is a tension for leaders, you know, especially in a coaching situation. It's like, Okay, these are the parameters, let's just address them. You know, too bad, just fit in right. I had a coaching conversation with a leader the other day,
you know, where there was a challenge. This person is very much focused on being inclusive and so on, but it's challenged by people who have ada related accommodations sometimes because sometimes the question is like, okay, is it too much or we have work to get done, right, and so this person it's a legitimate challenge that people had, Right, So how do we
negotiate that? What are one's obligations if I have an accommodation, what are my obligations or requirements to sort of manage myself versus requiring my employer or my manager to take care of me no matter what. Right, And it's a
constant dance. There isn't a simple solution to that, right. It means engaging in dialogue and constructing what those boundaries and norms are in a way that works ideally for as many of us as possible, and also making it very clear, being very strong about the norms of inclusion, right in other words, really creating space for difference to me as a fundamental requirement of an inclusive
team or organization. And so leadership it has to be very strong about that thing, you know, And we saw this tension it's coming to a head right now in this whole battle over you know, anti semitism on campuses or anti Palestinian statements as well, right with the congressional hearings recently where university presidents were challenged around you know what statements constitute violations of their policy. And I
don't think there's a simple solution to that. I mean, I do think violence is terrible, but I think we need a better way to frame the conversation that maybe takes account of this tension and really helps people learn how to be together, because ultimately the issue is how can we be together in this
one world with our differences. Isn't about one group suppressing another, Yeah, I mean part of the problem is that it isn't a conversation, and it's become a series of sound bites, right And as a result, those sound bites can constantly be taken out of context and then you know, sort of
whip up whatever impressions they have the effect of whipping up. And in the same way that for leaders to be effective, or for leadership to be effective, one has to learn and manifest the patience and interest to kind of meet every individual where they are. I think in our society. We need to manifest the patience and the empathy to understand situations in a holistic way rather than
just kind of grab onto the sound bite and form a judgment. I think this sort of tendency to opinion and judgment and the constant sharing thereof is just increasingly problematic. Yes, and I think you know, as you're speaking, what I'm thinking about is another element that perhaps we haven't fully discussed. We kind of alluded to it. But the idea is that all developing individually and
collectively. This idea of a static self, I think is part of the problem, and it also relates to this tension around individualism that we talked about. Yeah, so if we can really think about ourselves as becoming and really thinking about where are we going to get influenced? You know, what's going to influence us to become our best selves? What is going to who are my reference points? You know? How do you retain a learning mindset?
Right? Absolutely exactly, And so that's another part of the imperative. Another imperative for inclusive leadership is creating that mindset for oneself in one's team and in one's organization in a way that isn't about me telling you what to do. That's why I try to avoid the word training. I love the coaching approach because it's really about people discovering their own solutions. It's about co creating some kind of future that is grounded in one's own aspirations, identities, background,
but also being open to new influences and possibilities. This idea of just these completely separate groups that are totally different, or this idea every group has been
influenced by others too. Human history is about those relationships, right, So this idea that this is this culture and this is this culture and they have completely separate is problematic, right, And I think if we can touch and get in touch with how that is true for us individually and then how that plays out in workplaces or collaborative efforts, I think we can address this. But development is so important. What are we growing into as ourselves and in
our work together? And so how do we co construct a relationship ship, whether it's temporary or long term or whatever it is? Right, we're in relationship with each other with our differences, and so we have to negotiate how much we adapt to each other, what our boundaries and ORMs are and how we deal with comfort in discomfort going back to these tensions or paradoxes. Yeah, absolutely, supernaro. Last question, our mission as a company is to
activate, accelerate, and elevate people using coaching. And when you think about your own life and work, who has been or maybe it's more than one, but who has been the best coach or set of coaches that you've had during your life and experience? Wow? Well I wasn't prepared for that. That's okay, Yeah, yeah, maybe I can tell you the kind of coach or inspiration as opposed to a specific person. I think people who have seen the positive in me, who have helped me see the positive in myself
right, who have helped me develop more confidence and less self criticism. I tend to be very self critical and now to get rid of negative self talk. Yeah, and which for me is related to negative talk about others critique. Right, As a professor, it was very hard for me to you know, when I would read a dissertation or a paper. I mean, I can't tell you how many students I tortured, right, I feel bad about it, but it's also kind of was my style and in some way
still is there in me, and I really have to proactively learn. I've proactively learned to be more positive, to take an appreciative approach, to find the strengths in other people and in myself and say, hey, that was great. I loved when you did that. Thank you for that. You know, I really appreciated that particular thing. That's taken some growth on my
part. So the people that have done that for me. You know, a director of my program when I was a professor who sat me down and said, what are your goals in the future, as opposed to other directors who just wanted to use me as a token, you know, to achieve whatever they wanted. That was so refreshing and helpful. Right, So that inspired me, you know, to find to do that for others, to
pass it on. Right. So I think you know, a colleague of very close colleague who I want asked this question of how can I be more kind to students, and she said, well, be kind to yourself. I mean that just hit me and in a very powerful way, and it's stuck with me. I mean, I don't remember the exact quote, but the feeling just stuck with me for you know, has been with me for
fifteen twenty years, you know, and it's something I strive for. You know, when I critique something, it's still hard to do because I immediately go to what's we're saying? Right, I can't spritique me about that, And so it's an ongoing process. But also recognizing that so people who are vulnerable themselves and model it for me but are still powerful, you know, to me, that's also been the kind of coach and leader that has really
inspired me and helped me find my style. Amazing. That's a great note to end on. I think we should all be kinder to ourselves. Absolutely. Thank you, yes, thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you, it's been great. Thanks for listening. Please subscribe wherever you listen and leave us a review. Find your ideal coach at www dot viidmix dot com. Special thanks to our producer Martin Maluski and singer songwriter Doug Allen.