Will Marine Le Pen's conviction help her cause?

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Hello, a very good evening. It's five minutes past seven on LBC. We're going to talk about French politics this hour. Not often we do that, but I think it is warranted today because Marine Le Pen has been convicted of embezzlement of funds and she's been sentenced. to a prison sentence, but possibly more importantly, she will not be able to stand to be the next president of France. She's been banned from standing for political office for five years.

I'm not one to want to interfere in judicial processes. But of course, there are going to be a lot of people in France, supporters of hers, who will now regard her as effectively a political martyr. There will be huge suspicions that this was a political decision designed to prevent her from succeeding.

emmanuel macron because as i understand it she is ahead in the polls now as i say i think we have to be very careful about questioning a court decision but she was given the harshest possible sentence um so i want to ask you this question Do you think that... courts should be very, very wary about giving the appearance of interfering in political processes. I mean, we have that in this country throughout Brexit, of course, where various newspapers got very exercised about the way that...

Various courts have made decisions about the Brexit process here. She's been charged with embezzling EU funds, which effectively means that... As I understand what happened was that her party was using EU funds for party political purposes. Well, if you think about it, Nigel Farage was accused of that with UKIP back in the day. But obviously a very different interpretation made.

So what are the implications for this? Do you think that it might even mean that her party, the... might actually do much better because even people who aren't particularly pro her might feel a little bit of sympathy. with her and her party. And could it be that her deputy, Jean Bardel, actually becomes a much more popular personality than she was? He's very young, it has to be said.

So, very interested to hear your views on this, particularly if you live in France. I know we have a lot of listeners in France. 0345 6060 973. Peter Allen joins us, LBC's Paris correspondent. Peter, very good evening. It really was, Ian. I was in court today and I watched Marine Le Pen enter the Paris Correctional Court as one of the most successful... politicians in recent French history. Somebody who is well on course, I would say,

to have a very good chance of becoming head of state in 2027. She came out very, very quickly as a convicted criminal. She didn't even stay for her sentencing. That's how... annoyed she was, frustrated she was, and now she is in a huge amount of trouble. I would currently put her chances of standing in the 2027 election. Less than about 5%, there may be some kind of appeal allowed. But even then, it may be that the party doesn't want her.

to stand while she is a convicted criminal subject to appeal. The appeals system is very important in all this, Ian. There's a very long process over here after conviction, some would say a torturous process. It can go on for years and officially... defendants are innocent in the eyes of the law until all the appeals are heard. But of course, at the moment, that factor doesn't apply to Marine Le Pen. She is guilty. as far as this ban is concerned.

but she's not guilty as far as the criminal prison sentencing is concerned. A bit complicated, but that's where we are. So even if she successfully appeals the prison sentence, that doesn't mean that the ban would be overturned. No, quite. Absolutely. That's exactly where we are. They were very, very strict about it, these magistrates. They really made it clear they didn't think she was fit for public life.

Another very important point, Ian, and this is very, very well worth knowing, was that the powers of magistrates to impose these kind of punishments... are relatively new, and they were introduced by a socialist president, François Hollande, about 10 years ago now, when his budget minister, Jérôme Kausak...

was found to be not paying his taxes. And that's very important to note that these aren't particularly new, these new powers. Again, around 10 years ago now, nine years ago maybe, and they have been used before. And again, it's all about anti-corruption. This unit was set up by François Hollande, the socialist president, and that's really what Marine Le Pen has fallen foul of today.

The French judiciary I'm told is much more heavily politicised than it is in this country. Are there questions being raised about whether the... there was a political aspect to this sentencing decision. Yes, absolutely. That's the main argument, really. Having sat through a lot of the trial, the trial ended in November. It was a 12-week trial. On the criminal side, the legal side of the trial, the evidence against Marina Penn was absolutely overwhelming. She was fiddling the books massively.

She was treating the European Parliament as a cash cow. for the Rassemblement National here in Paris, completely against the law. European taxpayers were effectively being forced to fund a far-right political party. It's classed as a far-right political party. party over here. That's not me using that term. So that wasn't surprising at all that she was found guilty on that evidence. But what she tried to do was turn it into a political trial, a mitigation. was 90 percent based

on it being a political trial. She's a lawyer. She didn't really bother with the criminal evidence, again, because it was so overwhelming, the case against her. But she did say that I'm being attacked because these are left-wing magistrates. They don't want a far right government in power. And prosecutors are the same. And that's why I am being prosecuted in this way. And that's inevitably...

why these judges are trying to sign my political death warrant. This is the kind of language she's been using. And her deputy, Jordan Bardella, 29 years old, what would the French make of having a very young president? Emmanuel Macron wasn't that old when he became president, was he? Quite. I've followed the career of Jordan Bardella for many years. I remember when he was a young...

at the Rassemblement National. It was the National Front at the time. He's based his entire career within the National Rally, unlike... Emmanuel Macron, who was quite an impressive figure. In his late 30s, when he became president, huge amount of experience in government and a huge amount of experience in life, I have to say. Jordan Bardella has very little. I have to say he's a lightweight. He's only 29 years old.

He's really been a cheerleader for Marine Le Pen for many years and before that her father Jean-Marie Le Pen. And generally, there are people who like him. Of course, he's done very well within the party and he's up and coming. But I think if you spoke to most French people, including massive supporters of the Rassemblement National. they would say his chances of becoming president in 2027

extremely slim, especially in a party which has to be viewed as a dynastic party, which really expects Le Pen to be leading it and indeed to be standing for president. That's been happening since 1972. figures whether you like them or don't like them you have to admit they're massive figures weighty figures and Jordan Bardella is not

Peter, thank you very much. That's Peter Allen, LBC's Paris correspondent. Well, Jonathan Miller is a columnist for The Spectator, whose article today has the headline, Is France Still a Democracy? Jonathan, very good evening. How political do you think was this? trial or particularly the sentencing well i i good evening ian and good evening from france to everyone in lbc land i couldn't disagree more with

your correspondent in Paris. I've heard the word far-right used five times, I think I've counted it, to describe Marine Le Pen. I don't think she is. I think she's actually a centrist. She's kind of squishy on economics. a harder right possible in immigration. What's happened today has been an instrumentalization of French justice, a sort of warfare, lawfare. Every political party...

in the European Parliament diverts money. This was admitted today on X by a former senior European Parliament official, and we'll be reporting this in The Spectator. This was a politically motivated case brought by under a law created by a left-wing government. and enforced by a judiciary which concentrates almost exclusively on right-wing figures.

judges have done in France and the prosecutors have done in France is interfered into a democratic contest where in every opinion poll Marine Le Pen was the number one choice around 33%. of the votes. And she was on course to win this election. Now she's been eliminated. That raises a serious question whether France is a democracy or the equivalent of a judiciary. But if she had misappropriated these funds and used them for causes which they weren't supposed to be used for...

Every politician, every MEP, well, half the MEPs in Brussels, our story is going to say it's using money that comes from the European Parliament. They paid these young political activists. And it's like walking into Rick's... cafe american in the movie casablanca and being shocked that gambling is taking place of course millions are swirling around in brussels it's interesting

that only Marine Le Pen has been prosecuted. And the motive for that is to eliminate her as a contender. If she is eliminated, and I wouldn't write her off as quickly as your Paris correspondent, because I think she's a resilient, tough woman. who has tried three times to be president, is still on the race course, that she will be succeeded by this very interesting young man, Jordan Bargella.

Easy on the eye, French women tell me. Very attractive to young people. Very internet savvy. Three million social. media followers. And he could be pitied in an election against Jean-Luc Mélenchon, the candidate of the right in the second round. And that would be an interesting contest and a very serious contest for Britain.

France is your next door neighbor, and what happens here can cross the channel. And so I think you should be paying, and I'm glad you're paying very close attention to this story, Ian. Well, I do think it's important because, I mean, even if you disregard all the argument about, well, this is a political decision, you're right. It will have far reaching consequences, possibly not just for this country, but also the European Union. as well what you were saying there about well they're all at it

I'm pretty sure I remember Nigel Farage almost sort of boasting about doing this sort of thing when he was leader of UKIP. Well, I think this is a magic money tree in Brussels. Extraordinary expenses. these parliamentary assistants in Brussels, considered employees of the parliament. But everybody knows they do political work. How do you put a... I mean, you've been in this game, Ian. You know as well as I do that these young...

wannabe hustlers who get into these departments, the special advisors, parliamentary assistants, aides. Politics, when does politics end and putting out a European Parliament press release begin? I mean, that is a gossamer thing. dividing line and it's no doubt as peter allen pointed out she used money from the european parliament to pay her assistance although i don't

agree with Peter Allen that this is a unique train of behavior. I think it's a very common train of behavior. But having done that, it's interesting that she and she alone is pursued so relentlessly. by these left-wing prosecutors who are so left-wing that they had a war on the magistrates' union of all the right-wing politicians in France that they intended to prosecute. They call it the mur des camps.

which is a very insulting French word, which I won't translate. But there's no doubt whatsoever that justice in France is now a question that has to be raised. Who is in charge of France, voters or lawyers? Just one final thing. You question whether she can be described as far right. I mean, as somebody on the right myself, I have no hesitation in calling her far right. You described her as centrist and squishy.

more taxes. She just said Jordan Vardella has been in Israel, you know, where he's been at the Holocaust Memorial. He visited the site of the massacre. This is a big contrast to her father, who said that Holocaust was a detail of history.

I've been watching this party for 25 years here, and she has been dragging it to the centre, so much so that many of her hard core... uh right-wing extreme right supporters have left and they're looking elsewhere for their politics because it's become so centrist and that centrism is reflected in a economic policy which is broadly

left wing and a law and order policy which is broadly right wing and the pivot point between these two is the center and i think that's her calculation of how she would have won would have won this fourth election and that's the count that may have been burned apart.

Jonathan, thank you. That's Jonathan Miller there, columnist for The Spectator. It's 20 past seven. We'll come to your phone calls in a moment. 0345 6060 973. Do you think that this decision by this French court is politically... motivated because as i said at the beginning we don't like to question judicial decisions in this country but it does seem quite clear that french courts seem to be a lot more political a bit like american courts in some ways a lot more political than our own

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22 minutes past seven on lbc now if you're on the left of politics there'll be a lot of you listening that are you will have absolutely no doubt that this decision was the correct one that she was guilty as charged and therefore she should be sentenced uh very harshly she is a political leader after all so there is an argument for an exemplary sentencing here and that's certainly what she's got if you are a supporter of reform uk dare i venture to suggest you're probably going to question this

decision now whether as Jonathan Miller said that she is not far right I'm sorry I don't accept that you look at the she has tried to drag her party closer to the centre, it is true. But when you look at some of her past statements, I don't see how you can argue that she isn't, particularly with her comments.

on various immigration issues. I think she's been accused of being anti-Semitic in the past. Her father certainly was. But it doesn't really matter whether you're on the left or the right here because What I think is going to happen is that there will be a massive opposition to this in France, and there could well be huge demonstrations, and we know the French love to do a big demonstration. And she could become a bit of a political martyr. And surely no one really wants that.

And the appeal process, as we've heard there from Peter Allen and indeed from Jonathan, it can take quite a long time. So it's very possible that this ban on her not being able to stand will prevent her from being a candidate in 2020. that makes me quite queasy it really does and I would not vote for Marine Le Pen in a month of Sundays however I don't believe that a judicial system should involve itself in the political process and sure if she's in prison then she...

shouldn't be able to run for office. That's the same in this country. The fact is, she's going to be wearing a tag. There is a two-year aspect to this prison sentence. So I would submit to you that... Fine. She should serve her sentence. She should pay the fine. But should she really be banned from running for political office? Surely in the end, the people have to have the final say.

on whether a politician is elected or not. It should not be up to magistrates or judges. 0345 6060 973 is the number to call. Adam's in Romford. Hello, Adam. Hello there. Afternoon to you. How are you? Hi. Good, thank you. What would you like to say? I'm just a bit disappointed that you're even agreeing and creating a situation that...

that somebody who's done wrong, clearly wrong, would be promoted to a position of power. I mean, what's the point of going to work, going to getting educated? I'm not promoting anything. Well, you're suggesting that just because, you know, you're equating the fact that she was found guilty and that, you know, that if she's not...

doesn't stand to run in the election, that it will create an issue. It's hook, line and sink. It should be finished. End of. She's done something wrong and she's an example and a poor one at that. And we don't need it. You might want to say it's political. It's not political. If she didn't do anything wrong, she would be able to run as anybody else would. We've got to be fair. We've got to have the rules and we've got to stick to them. Otherwise, we have nothing.

Well, there's a lot of ifs in what you said there. And I suppose that inevitably there have to be. But I'm not disputing the fact that she was guilty of what she was charged with. But I do think we have to take into account what Jonathan was saying there.

that they're all at it. And why was it that she and her party were picked out for a court case here rather than any of the other French political parties or indeed, dare I say, British political parties that were doing exactly the same thing? I think that there is a... question that can be asked i think the other question that i think it is quite fair to ask is that whether a court system a judicial system should involve itself in the political process like like this one clearly has

A court system is there to put the law in place. Now, if anybody else has done anything wrong, they need to be called out, prosecuted the same way. So it's all fair, right? If there are any accusations, they should be brought forward. It's very much like Donald Trump. You know, the guy's clearly, outrageously, you know, well, we would suspect that he's definitely guilty or was found guilty. Yeah, but the thing is, the thing is... No, but Adam, Adam, the thing is...

This is the point of my question here. Donald Trump was not, he was found guilty of those charges just before the presidential election. It didn't do his chances any harm at all. He won the presidential election. Now, I'm not, as you know, I would never vote.

for donald trump but that's by the by and the american people decided that he was a fit and proper person to be president well that's their decision you and i may disagree with it but surely that decision should be left to the french people to decide No, look, if she's gone to court and she's done something wrong, she should be called out for it. If she gets prosecuted, she should serve her sentence. And that's the end of it, like anybody else. What's different than her?

Both wins is outrageous. And it's you saying that, oh, well, it could just cause people to call out that it's a wrong decision.

lawfare or whatever is absolute nonsense. Well, I didn't say that. What is lawfare? It's nonsense. You're a cheat. You've messed up, right? You've been called out and you have to take the rough... you know the rough ready ready with the rough as it were i mean it's outrageous we can't keep doing this what an example to our children is this we are adults we should know better and we do know better and we have to start standing up Well, I mean...

With respect, Adam, I've merely asked some questions. I think there are some questions that need to be asked and need to be answered. That's my role. I am uncomfortable at the fact that courts should decide who should run for Parliament or... president or not whether it's in this country or whether it's in france it doesn't matter whether i agree with marine le pen or not i don't i've made that very very clear but there has to be

proper justice and also natural justice. That's all I'm saying. Adam, thank you very much indeed. Keep your calls coming. 7.32 on LBC. Before we come back to your calls on Marine Le Pen's conviction and sentencing, let's look at the financial markets because they've been certainly in the United States this afternoon. It hasn't been good news because Donald Trump is expected to... announced widespread tariffs on all sorts of different countries and all sorts of different products on Wednesday.

And the feeling is that's going to have a very detrimental effect both on the US and the world economy. So let's talk to Samaya Keynes, economics columnist at the Financial Times. Samaya, very good evening to you. How bad has it been in the markets today? Yeah, I mean, not great. Although I guess...

You know, the worst numbers are when you take a slightly longer term view. I mean, this is something that the markets have been pricing in over a little while as it's kind of gradually hit them that, yes, Donald Trump is serious about tariffs. you know if you look at the the performance over say the last quarter that that's when it starts to look really really disappointing um but yeah today they they really haven't moved in the right direction but i mean

What is expected for the rest of the week? Because if the tariffs that he imposes on Wednesday are even worse than maybe some people are predicting, that could be very, very serious for all economies, couldn't it? Yeah, I mean, so it looks like we're definitely going to, well, one should never say definitely in the world of Donald Trump, but I'm very, very...

I think the probability that there are fairly hefty tariffs are very high. I think my best guess is that they'll go very, very high and then there'll perhaps be negotiations, but not back down to zero. I think the US is essentially going to tax imports. for the foreseeable future. And yeah, so that essentially is a tax. That will affect the margins of the companies that, you know, bring stuff into the US. That will affect...

countries that rely on American demand, right? That's a wedge in between people making stuff and the Americans who are buying it. And then, you know, there's the direct effect, but then there's the bigger effect.

for what this says about American leadership, the stability of the global... trading system you know you can be sure that if trump trump does it then other countries might say well you know we can we can do whatever we want when it comes to protectionism or tariffs and who's going to stop us right so So there's a kind of general weakening of trust and confidence, and that could have as big an effect as the direct effects of the tariffs.

What is a tariff for our listeners? We hear this word all the time, but what effect does it have on ordinary people? Yeah, it's a tax on imports. In theory, well, in practice, the importer pays it. So say you've got a supermarket bringing in, you know, food or toys or whatever. paid at the border on the whole value of the thing when it comes into the country. And so, you know, as you might expect, that will

probably lead to an increase in the price for the consumer because companies' profit margins often aren't that big that they can absorb the whole increase in the tax. It's possible that the exporters will have to lower their prices so say you're a british company sending stuff to the u.s they might say oh well you know what to retain access to the american market maybe we could lower our prices a bit and and sort of take some of the hit

But no one's enjoying this along the supply chain, apart from perhaps the US government who might get some tax revenue. And that there's one theory that this is one of the real drivers of this. They want to tax imports so that they can lower income taxes elsewhere. But yeah, really think of this as a tax. And I guess not very many people enjoy paying taxes.

This is very true. Samaya, thank you. That's Samaya Keynes from the Financial Times. Right, back to your calls on Marine Le Pen. Malcolm is in Wigan. Hello, Malcolm. Hello, yes. I mean, I see this as a sign of the deterioration in European democracy.

because it's not the first country that's banned a presidential candidate. Romania's done the same. Very true. So, but, you know, also the fact that the grounds for... banning her are connected with events that happen within the European Parliament, well, I mean, that's just showing how poor the European Parliament's control is. in terms of legality. The fact that, according to the commentator that you had on from France, others do the same thing. That doesn't make it right, though, does it?

Maybe, but it shows what I'm trying to say is that we have an unelected European Union Commission that is held to account by... MEPs, who themselves are not held to account in terms of control of finances. And this is one of the reasons why I voted in favour of British independence, and I have no regrets about that whatsoever.

No, there was that failure to provide audited accounts. So if you had audited accounts within the European Union, then these kind of abuses would have been exposed. I mean, I remember ringing up the EU Commission and telling them, you know, that they were going. you know, because they had an office in London. And I said to them, you don't provide accounts. And the guy replied to me, and he said to me, he said, yes, we do. And then I replied, and I heard what he said, then I rang up.

back later and said, yes, but not audited accounts. That's the point. There's unaccountable money sloshing around. in the European Parliament. Well, you are right. I think they went 20 years without having audited accounts. I think, but I've slightly lost touch with this now, I think... they are now doing proper audited accounts um but

I come back to the point that just because she's the only one to be taken to court for it, I mean, she was guilty. She's clearly guilty, if you look at the decision made. And you can't just say, well, because everyone else was doing it, that means... that she wasn't guilty, because she clearly was. Well, what I'd say to that is, firstly, she does have a right of appeal, as your man explained under the French legal system.

But it doesn't look very good when a major opposition candidate, who, as it happens, like the Romanian chap, wants to end the war with Ukraine, is banned. as far as I understand it, is banned from standing, particularly when the European leaders, as they like to describe themselves, are giving money, huge sums of money, or claiming that they are, to an unelected...

Ukrainian regime where the presidential term ran out and their parliament is also unelected. So you have a lack of democracy across the world. So Churchill should have been chucked out in the Second World War, should he, because he didn't hold an election? Well, I mean, that's a different time. We're in a time when elections are held regularly, and that is the norm.

definitely the norm sorry if we if we were at war if we were at war now do you think that there would be a general election slap bang in the middle of that war get real i think that we should have elections regularly just like the americans do Every four years. Yeah, the Americans have never been invaded. They can hold elections. We couldn't hold elections during the Second World War for obvious reasons.

Americans held an election during the Civil War under Lincoln. They held one every four years. That's why they're not impressed partly by the EU. They say, we hold elections every four years and every two years for the House of Reps.

And the EU is a failing expansionist empire that lacks democracy. That's their point of view. Well, yeah, well... according to you that's their point of view i mean eu countries hold elections there are elections to the european parliament you can't actually accuse the european union generally of being totally undemocratic there are aspects that could be improved it has to be

said uh marvin's in peterborough hello marvin yes hi thanks for taking my call um i'll just say i think we need to remain objective um whether le pen is a politician a king a pauper a law was broken she made that decision or her party made that decision to break that law so we the judge has to look at the objective truth okay on which to adjudicate. Yeah, I don't disagree with that. There should be a separation between politics.

And the crime she committed is exactly otherwise what you will find individuals will want will choose to hide behind politics to get away from from facing the consequences of their actions. And that can't be right because. The normal person is looking in and thinking, well, there's one law for one group of people and another approach to law for another. And that is not right. Otherwise, you lose confidence.

in the the legal system just as we have lost in the political system do we want the situation that as we have with trump you know being leader he he disqualified himself by his actions He should not have become president. Yes, I know the American people voted for that, but he should not have been allowed to run in the first place because their constitution had to be met.

No, no, no, no, no. You're absolutely wrong there. You are absolutely wrong. Because under the American Constitution, an American president can still be president, even if he's in prison. Now, you and I may... We think that's ridiculous, but that...

is what their constitution says. No, you're correct. You're correct in that. That's true. But with regards to this issue with Le Pen, I was trying to use that as a parallel. It probably wasn't a good one. But we just have to remain objective. The law was broken. A choice was made to break that law by Le Pen, and she has faced the consequences. We cannot say to a judge...

Because of the title or position of that individual, the law should not be applied. That is right. But he did not have to apply the ban on running for elected office for five years. That was at the harsher end of the... punishment. And that's the one bit of it that I do have a bit of a problem with. Okay, I can appreciate that. But the fact is she's being punished. She would not have been in this situation if she had kept on the right side of the law.

You know, and that's my, I mean, if we just remain objective, the harshness of the punishment is not, but you can't say the judge is being political because he applied the law. You know, I don't think that's fair. Otherwise, they'll just simply be pushed into a corner when people in position come before them. And that's not right.

you know okay thank you very much indeed marvin uh let's move on to now it's either jean or jean in collindale hi hey hey and how's it going it's jean how are you i'm very well what would you like to tell me yeah so My view on this is that it's a constitutional issue, and I understand why people think that, you know, you shouldn't be above the law.

The reason why the law has any legitimacy at all is because ultimately it's, you know, through our representatives and obviously France, the U.S., they're different, but it's the representatives that basically make the law. So it's the people that choose. So you've got balancing, you know, the fairness of the law against the people willing to, you know, want to elect their leaders. So I think, like, for example, in the US, as we know, President Trump was...

found guilty of a crime, but nevertheless, under the US Constitution, he's still allowed to run for office. Because if the American people or the British people or the French people, it should be the case that if they want to elect someone who's a convicted criminal, then that's up to them.

I think. So that's the first point. So I think you're balancing those two things. And I think ultimately, the legitimacy of the law is based on people being able to, you know, is being controlled by the populace. And if the populace decided to vote for somebody, then that should trump.

the equality under the law, number one. Number two, we all know that the law can be manipulated. It can be used, like, for example, in Rome, just prior to when the... just before it became an empire and the republic, I think Julius Caesar and all the people going against him, they were all basically using warfare to try and sort of stop one person from standing and to basically use the law as a weapon.

which it can be. It can be done. It can also be fair. But the point is in the constitutional, if you're trying to design a decent constitution, then basically I think... the ultimate trump card should be if people want to elect somebody if that's who they want to their leader regardless of what they've done um if they choose it knowing it then then their will should so so i think you said earlier um the area what i would disagree

you said earlier, that because you're convicted, then you shouldn't be able to run. I don't agree with that. Maybe I'm mistaking what I thought you said. But I think even if you are convicted of a crime, if the people know that...

and they want you to be their leader, then that's up to them because that's the highest authority. And that's also what gives legitimacy to the law. I think you do have to draw a line somewhere. And I think if you are actually serving... in prison a prison sentence then that that that should rule you out but um anyway jean thank you very much indeed for your call now on cross question at uh eight we have christian calgy senior political correspondent for the

daily express joe stevens secretary of state for wales uh jovan awusu nepal a political campaign a labor activist stood against nigel farage in the election and mark field the former conservative mp and minister he's got his autobiography out at the moment the End of an era, it's called. They'll be here after eight. You may want to ask them about Marine Le Pen's sentence or indeed anything else. 0345 6060 973.

send a comment to lbc 10 to 8 on lbc geraldine is in waltham forest hello geraldine yes hi hello hello Yeah, so I'm French and I live in the UK. I haven't seen anybody on social media question that if she's guilty, she should be able to... to run as president now people might argue that if she's guilty or not but if she is found guilty i haven't seen anybody argue i think

I think as well in France, we hold politicians much more accountable than we do... in the uk you know she's not the first one to to go through the justice system there's been left-wing ones that have gone through the justice system i don't think any politician would have gone got away with the corruption, with the contracts during COVID. When you look at the contaminated blood scandal, for example, everybody's been compensated.

15 years ago i just think there's just a massive cultural difference and what you get away with here you just wouldn't get away with it in france Well, I think you're not comparing like with like, are you? Because, I mean, the contaminated blood scandal, clearly there were wrong decisions made, but there's no sense of politicians being corrupt there. They clearly made wrong decisions.

during covid you wouldn't get away with that i don't think any of the politicians that were accused of making the wrong decisions were accused of doing it for financial benefit to themselves I'm not sure. So you think she shouldn't be allowed to run? No, I don't think so. But I'm not even seeing, not even because I'm either for or against her. It's just I'm also not seeing anybody.

questioning if she should be allowed to run if she's found guilty. You might have people that are questioning if she's guilty or not, but if they consider her guilty, you wouldn't expect her to be able to run. And I've seen this with politicians from the left in the past. I can't remember his name, but he was found guilty of... sexual harassment or or worse and that that was it his his political career was over and he was from the left

Well, and then there was François Fillon. He was from the right. He faced a court and was found guilty as well not that long ago. Geraldine, thank you very much indeed. Now, before we come to tonight's cross-question, let's hear a little of the latest episode of the Presidents, Prime Ministers, Monarchs and Dictators podcast.

This week's episode focuses on possibly the most well-known of all of the Roman emperors, Julius Caesar. I'm joined by the writer Mark Fox, who explained the life trials and tribulations of the man. He had a very straightforward...

and uncomplicated political career. He came from a family of aristocrats but were impoverished. So money was always a problem for Julius Caesar and at this time, well as indeed in our time, money... matters and he had stood for election to the praetorship and to various other offices in rome had gone and done his military service abroad as he was required to do as people where you were

In those days, you did a period of holding an office and then you did a period going out into the empire, into the wider Roman world, governing a province and then coming back.

And he had done all this in a very orthodox way. There was nothing unusual about his career until he became consul in 59. And he was consul alongside... his consular colleague was one of his bitter foes and opposed more or less everything Caesar wanted to do and it was at this moment once he'd achieved the pre-eminent position in the state that he began to get frustrated.

with the way that things were done but the way that he'd stirred up populism in the crowd wasn't really much different to the way that cicero himself who had come from absolutely nothing was known as a new man had come and himself had risen through the different levels of government to become the consul. So stirring up the populace was then and is now not a new trick.

let's go back to the beginning what do we know about his childhood what family was he born into what was his education like i mean do we know anything about it Oh, yes. No, he was born into a distinguished but an impoverished aristocratic family who I think numbered a couple of consuls, that is, you know, chief ministers, in his family history.

But as I say, they were impoverished and he had a very good education and his mother was an extremely sophisticated operator at a time when women were not allowed to hold public office, but she was recognized to be a real sort of... power behind the scenes sort of person. And he had an orthodox but very good education.

at which he showed both physical and intellectual powers. So he was very able at sport as well. He was very good in the classroom. And into the Senate and through his early political career. He was recognised as Abel. He shared the same public speaker trainer, Molon, as Cicero. So he was adept and adroit at all the skills and all the arts necessary.

for what people thought would be a successful but sort of pretty straightforward political career. But I think one of the interesting things about him is that he wasn't afraid to stand for public office against... older, more qualified candidates, and he often beat them. So he was a tremendous, tremendously intellectually self-confident and physically self-confident.

You know, he had the chutzpah, the sort of the vim and the vigour that went with his abilities. And we know from the conduct of his personal life that he wasn't shy in that area either. And it is certainly true that he was holding one of the lesser public offices when the office of Pontifex Maximus became... vacant due to the death of the holder at that time. This was the chief priest of the mainstream authorized Roman religion. And Julius Caesar spotted.

that if you got yourself elected Pontifex Maximus, you had a house on the Palatine, the grandest house in Rome, for life. You held the position for life, with a salary for life, and you automatically had right of access to the inner councils of the government of the city, and therefore of the empire. And it is perfectly true, Ian, that he stood, and everybody thought it was a joke, and he won, both through adroit campaigning and the spending of vast amounts of money.

And we see later in his career, a bit later when he becomes the consul, that because of his dependence on money, he formed an unlikely but enduring partnership with... Crassus, who was the richest person in the state. And in the end, he formed an alliance with Pompey as well. So you have the greatest general, the greatest money lender, richest person in the state.

and the most able politician in alliance and that's what came to make them so formidable but caesar was always in debt and indeed at the end of his consulship which which he had conducted well which started in 59 unusually, Caesar was very, very much in debt. And this is when we begin to see the change in the way that Caesar conducts himself.

That's the writer Mark Fox telling me about the life of the Roman Emperor Julius Caesar. And you can hear our full conversation by subscribing to the Presidents, Prime Ministers, Monarchs and Dictators podcast on Global Player. This is LBC from Global. Leading Britain's conversation cross-question with Ian Dale.

Hello, a very good evening to you. It's Ian Dale on Cross Question. It's two minutes past eight on LBC. Let me tell you who's on our panel tonight. They're eagerly awaiting your questions. Sitting next to me on my left is Joe Stephens, Wales Secretary and Labour MP for Cardiff East.

Next to her is Mark Field, the former Conservative MP and Minister, who's the author of the new book, which, if you're watching on Global Player, I am now brandishing in front of the camera. It's called The End of an Era, The Decline and Fall of the Tory Party. Christian Calgi is over tomorrow. And if you've never tuned in to us...

on Global Player before, it's worth it just to see Jovan's jumper. I can't say any more than that. I can't say any more than that. Do ask a question, though, because we rely on your questions to get the programme zipping along. 0345 6060. It's the number to call and you can WhatsApp us on that number. And as I say, do watch us on Global Player. Call 0345 6060 973. Tweet at LBC. Text 84850. Cross question. With Ian Dale. This is LBC.

Let's start with a text question from Harriet in Rugby. Keir Starmer seems pretty bold that he's going to stop the boats and seems to be doing a better job than his predecessors. Does he? If you look at the numbers, I'm not sure that's right. Anyway, we'll leave that one to one side for the moment. Does the panel think this government's best achievement could be their tackling of illegal immigration?

Well, the Prime Minister says he's angry at the number of migrants crossing the Channel, as he revealed deportations under Labour have topped 24,000 since the general election. He said for too long, the UK had been a soft touch. get Corey to check this but I'm sure I heard yesterday

But although the numbers were down in January and February, in March they've been at record levels and overall the numbers coming into this country over the last three months have gone up by, was it 43%? But Joe Stevens... Have you got the numbers, correct numbers to hand? I haven't got the numbers. I don't want to give false information. No, no, but what I would say is that...

If you look across the range of measures that we've taken, enforced returns are up 24% since July. More than 2,900 foreign criminals have been removed from the country since July. That's a 21% increase on the period last year. We've got the highest levels of removals for over half a decade and January is the most successful month in more than half a decade for tackling illegal working. So we're working across a range of areas.

The Prime Minister has convened today over 40 countries to spearhead the toughest ever international crackdown on organised criminal smuggling gangs. And as he said today, you know, it's... It's affecting our ability, has affected our ability to control who comes into the country. He's angry about it. Lots of people across the country are angry about it. But it's going to take time to fix because of what we inherited.

So we're getting rid of the backlog in asylum claims. We are decreasing the use of hotels, bringing down those numbers. So it's across a range of areas that we are making a difference already in just nine months. But I've just had it confirmed. a record number of people, approximately 6,000, have arrived in the UK after crossing the Channel this year. Last year it was 5,435 in the same period.

And that was a record for the first quarter of the year. Now, I accept that a new government isn't going to solve the whole problem within nine months. I mean, that would be ridiculous to expect it to do so.

But the problem is getting worse. Well, and we're not going to tackle it and... succeed on our own so that's why a lot of international diplomacy has been going on it's why we've got an agreement with France now for them to launch a unit of specialist officers who are mobile highly trained will be able to respond dynamically

prevent small boat crossings it's why we've got an agreement with italy on a new task force to go after the financial flow of money and that the smuggling gangs are using and succeeding with and it's also why we've got an agreement with germany where they

They've strengthened their laws to prevent those who facilitate smuggling to the UK from doing more of it. But it's not working, is it, given those figures? It will take time to work. It will take time to work. But if you can see from all the examples I've given...

we are making inroads against every aspect as best we can and today getting 40 countries together because you know to the way to tackle this is internationally getting those 40 countries together getting the digital platforms like meta TikTok X together because they've got a role in this as well in terms of advertising gangs, getting everybody together to provide an international solution to this. In the end though...

It's down to the French, isn't it? I mean, isn't it as simple as that? If the French did what they promised to do, they promised Boris Johnson they would do it, they promised Liz Truss, they promised Rishi Sunak, but in the end... They don't seem to be very determined to help on the issue. And in some ways, you can understand why. Well, as I say, you know, it's going to take more than...

Us alone, and it's going to take more than us in France to provide a solution to this. That's why we've had this 40 countries coming together today to try and find a solution to this. And we will absolutely do this. You can see by what we've done already. in terms of returns, in terms of foreign criminals leaving the country. We are making progress already. Hotel numbers are going down. Asylum backlog is...

being cut significantly. All of that means that we are spending money on reducing the problem. rather than spending money on something that didn't work. Are you sure hotel numbers are going down? Hotel numbers are due to go down. Due to go down, that's rather different. No, well, end of this month. You can double check me on this. End of this month, because today is the end of the month. It is. there were due to be fewer hotels in use than there were when we came into government last July.

You're a heroine of mine already for sowing fewer rather than less, because that's one big bugbear, so brilliant. Mark Field. Yeah, listen, I don't think there's any doubt that the current government are doing all they can, as indeed did the last Conservative administration. I think it is...

very optimistic to think that this is going to be solved anytime soon. I think there are a multitude of issues that are at stake here. What does success look like, though? Because you're never going to eliminate the problem, are you? I don't think you are. And I think part of the difficulty that the Conservatives had... was that we tried to boil down the immigration concern that many have.

into some sort of retail offer from david cameron's reducing to tens of thousands teresa may talked about having a hostile environment then obviously rishi talked about stopping the boats and of course even within a few months he is recognized that was probably too too blatant a slogan. Listen, these things are incredibly difficult. I think what would be wise for the government.

current government not to try and make another retail offer along those sorts of lines, which almost certainly will end up disappointing. But the issue really is one about trust. And I think this is the big concern, is that trust in the whole political process is being undermined. If we can't hold our borders together, whatever one thought about Brexit and Joe and I, we were both on the same side as Remainers.

that time, the idea of being able to take control of our borders has been shown to be a fallacy. That is what is building up more and more distrust, I think, in the entire political process. And that's not just something here in the UK. I think it's across the world. Yeah, and that's why we've got our Borders Bill going through Parliament at the moment to effectively use counter-terrorism. powers to go after criminal smuggling gangs.

We would like to get that legislation on the statute book as quickly as possible. Sadly, both reform and the Conservatives are voting against it at the moment, but that would give law enforcement real powers. Well, hang on, there's 126 votes in the House of Commons. I mean, I accept that it's a slightly different situation.

in the Lords, but you should be able to get it through. You've got a big majority in the House of Constance to get your legislation through. Yeah, we will get it through, but we'd like to get it through quickly. Okay, Jovan. Well, going back to Harriet's question, I don't think it would be... the best achievement of this government i think i can point to various things that the government's trying to address that will

make things much better, about the 1.5 million houses that will ensure that young people can get on the property ladder, the GB energy proposals to ensure that domestic bills are much cheaper. Those are some of the things that I think the government can and will serve as an...

achievement in the years going forward so in terms of the immigration that's an aspect of it but in terms of a kind of domestic program I think the government has a bold action that will ensure that people have housing that people have cheaper bills in the long term and that's something that I'm kind of looking

forward to much more in terms of solving this issue though do you think it's possible i mean what what as i said to mark what would success look like getting it down to um instead of 44 000 a year getting it down to 12 or 5 or what well yeah it's a huge issue of course

And I think that this is staring down a long barrel. We've got the climate crisis that is facing us. So this isn't something that is going to evaporate overnight. It's not going to end in the next five years. It's not going to end in the next decade. And no one seems to recognize.

everyone seems to recognise that it's not working on the left and on the right. And there has to be a human-centred approach because it's not going to go away. One thing that I thought was quite good from the Prime Minister today was the fact that he's convened leaders from across Europe. There are now agreements for the European Union to work with countries, including the UK, outside of...

European Union so we can have some form of strategic oversight as to how our borders are controlled but as I said this is not an issue that's going to go away and so we can't pretend as though we're going to have some form of hard borders we're going to tackle it head-on when we know that

there are greater factors at play around the climate crisis and other things that may pop up in the years to come. We don't know what's coming around the corner and I think it's a bit short-sighted to suggest that we can... evaporate or end this issue overnight or in the next parliament. I think we have to have a human-centred approach and recognise the contributions that people make but also what may be coming on down the line.

um yeah i take a slightly different view i think the problem is that on the immigration debate we're currently we're in a sort of similar position as we were to the economic debate uh sort of between Ted Heath and Harold Wilson and Callaghan, it feels like we're on the brink of quite a major psychological shift. And I think the problem for the previous Conservative government and the Labour government is that they are arguably doing as much.

as they feel they can within a very narrow sort of ideological boundary you know for example neither party is yet willing to entertain that we may need a wholesale different attitude to international law um parties aren't willing you know it felt what would you mean by that well for example and we've seen Rishi Sunak in his interview with Nick Robinson now being more bold than he was in government in entertaining the fact we may need to leave the ECHR to get to grips with this problem.

For me, today's conference felt like a wholesale exercise in trying to put the toothpaste back into the tube. We can't return. to that sort of pre-2010, even pre-2015 world because there have been two major changes. The cost of flights and international travel are significantly reduced and they will never go back up. and the role of social media and I think the government's right to identify social media but the idea that we can merely ask Mark Zuckerberg or Elon Musk or TikTok

to prevent the spread of people smuggling propaganda is like just a pointless game of whack-a-mole. Politicians have proved consistently impossible in regulating the internet, I'm afraid. It's not propaganda. it's actually actual advertising of yeah so those platforms are making money out of it yes but I think whether they're making money out of it or not there's clearly a market I mean we know that

For example, you know, there are private messaging groups. There's WhatsApp that's being used for this. And I find it very illuminating that when Keir Starmer talks about smuggling gangs, he often talks about... his time in the law trying to crack down on drugs.

And he often says, well, if we can do one, why can't we do the other? And I would argue that he absolutely hasn't dealt with the drug gangs. We can't smash drug smuggling and drug dealing in this country because the economic pull factors into that line of work are simply...

too great so yes we've got to deal as much as we can cross borders with dealing with people smuggling but we've also got to deal with the deterrent and we know we know that the deterrent is enormous we know that the pull factor into Britain are enormous. That is why they're coming from mainland Europe into Britain. There is no war going on in mainland Europe. There are no threats to liberties in mainland Europe. Why are they risking their lives and spending thousands?

to get into small boats it's because of

Because of pull factors, it's because we've got a very shoddy approach when it comes to policing illegal migrants. The returns have not been up to scratch. We put them in hotels. We offer them... clothes and benefits and all the rest of it and people illegal migrants talk about this that is why they're coming over and we've got to deal with that and i'm afraid if that means being a bit more mean-spirited a bit less so-called compassionate or as i would argue

bit more compassionate on the finances and the safety of the British people, then we might start to turn a corner and have a more real debate about how we deal with the... the problems of illegal migration that are not going to go away as much as we have at conferences like this. Is Christian right on the pull factors there? I think to an extent he is. I mean, I think the other factor is, you know, we have a country of 68 million people. There are...

You can come here with a smattering of English and an ability to work hard and you can get into the jobs market, whether legally or illegally, of course. Arguably, there are more than a million people who are working illegally, as it stands. We don't know what the number is. It's unquantifiable. But I remember going to Sweden 10, 12 years ago, and they've had some very major problems in big cities like Malmo and Stockholm. where essentially people were arriving.

weren't able to speak the language, and also that there just weren't enough unskilled jobs for them to be able to make a living straight away. And I think that that is one of the big pull factors. Yeah, the UK is an attractive proposition.

around the world have a smattering of English, want to improve their English, and can get into some sort of employment fairly quickly i think adding to that there does have to be a conversation about integration people coming to this country who may not want to integrate or may not seemingly integrate effectively into communities and who are exploiting the fact that there is at times

quite a generous system of potentially claiming asylum or finding other means of coming into the country. There has to be a way in which we say the communities here have to be willing, they have to be able to assimilate and accommodate people who are coming over. And if that's not the case, and I think it is quite right at times that people who are exploiting a system, whether it's through extending their visas or overstaying their visas, sorry, or people who are coming through illegal routes.

they will have to go home. I mean, there has to be a balance here, but that doesn't mean we lose any human-centered approach in all of it, because it does have an impact in communities up and down Britain, and there are very many people who are concerned with levels of immigration.

But I don't think people are unreasonable. People do want to see an approach that works for British people, that works for people coming over. But we have to find a halfway house in all of that. Can I just come back on the deterrent very quickly, which is asylum decisions are being made.

quicker now that is a deterrent and returns are up you know at the highest level that is also a deterrent so i don't accept christian's point i would say the reverse side of that of course is that when we talk about getting people out of hotels The vast majority of cases with asylum seekers, that means getting them out of hotels and into taxpayer-funded...

housing provided by the local authority which is then money that is you know that's just as much of an incentive and just as much of a problem for uh for british voters i was in hull on tuesday i got speaking to a British man in his 50s, homeless, sitting opposite the poshest hotel in the centre of Hull that is being used to house migrants. And he could not understand why the council was not as proactive in helping him into... and accommodation as they were with migrants and I think he voices

the views of a great many Brits. I would just add... No, no, you're not going to add Joe because we're already way over our time. Forgive me. Cross Question with Ian Dale. Watch live on Global Player. This is LBC. Yeah, please do send me that list. 20 past eight. Joe Stevens is here, Secretary of State for Wales. Do I say Wales Secretary or Welsh Secretary? I want to say Welsh Secretary. I don't really mind. Welsh Secretary, aren't I? Come on, sure.

just encouraged his plight. Mark Field is here. Mark has written a new book. It was out last week. It's called The End of an Era, The Decline and Fall of the Tory Party, which it does what it says on the tin, but it's also quite a bit of an autobiography. but he really combines the the politics of the last 20 or so years with with the personal side why did you want to write it um well there's a bit of narcissism isn't there

To be fair, obviously I'm not a politician anymore, as I can say these things. I've got two teenage children, and I'm a footnote in political life. I had a moderate level of attainment, becoming a Minister of State. I've had a slightly interesting political career, one or two scrapes I got into that have been fairly high profile, as you well know. But I guess also having been the MP for the City of London, and I've just turned 60.

I'm one of the baby boom generation. And I do think that what has happened, you and I, both of that sort of generation, we grew up in the 1970s and there is a sense that things are coming full circle to a certain extent in the way that Britain's place in the world.

and some of the issues that we face. So it seemed an opportune moment to write something. I'm very glad I waited. As you know, I've not been an MP now for five and a half years, and I don't think I would have been able to have that perspective to...

tell not just my story, but the story of politics, had I sort of rushed into print immediately. And so I'm glad I did wait and looked at it from further afield. You, I think, obliquely referred to there one of the times when you did hit the headlines, when you had a... affair with Liz Truss before she became an MP.

Was it right to include all of that in the book? Obviously you think it is, but you did. Yes, I did. I did give some thought to it, and I think it would have been a bit odd writing a book and not mentioning it, given that if you do a Google search for me for the last five years, almost every time I have been mentioned. and it has been in relation to her relationship 20 years ago with Elizabeth Trust. And I hope I've done it in a dignified...

in a respectful manner. And in many ways, it's been on the basis of... I wanted much more prayer in detail. We're no prayer in detail, I'm afraid to say, for those of you who want to buy the book, for that purpose. I'm screwing it from a person. No, but I think the biggest, the obvious question I've always been asked for the last two and a half years, do you think she had the capability of being Prime Minister? And my argument would be sort of yes and no. I mean, I think...

She clearly had the drive, the ambition, to be fair, the raw intelligence, and was obviously very politically obsessed to make it to the top. But was there much of a track record? And I think there was some of her... characteristics of her character flaws you might say were evident for a long time before we will be going through this in much more detail when we do my all talk interview with you later in the week which you'll be able to hear on my all talk podcast in the coming few weeks

Jovan Owusu-Nepal is a political campaigner and commentator. Not really old enough to write an autobiography yet, but given your experiences in Clacton, you could probably write a book on that. Something may soon be coming. Oh, this is an exclusive. Well, I mean, I'm working on something. Oh, yeah. Okay. And Christian Calgi is a writer, but not of a book yet. It's just occurred to me, this is the first time I've appeared on a panel. handling my life with someone younger than me.

How old are you? 28. That's fine. No, we're all good. So obviously I'm far too young, far too much of a spring chicken to do. Right. Let's go to another question. It's from Sarah in Ipswich. Is Keir Starmer anything better?

than trump's lapdog why won't he retaliate to trump's bizarre tariffs but we don't actually know what they are yet so it's a little bit early to say that uh downing street has admitted the uk is now likely to face donald trump's tariffs this week as the u.s president threats of a global trade war sparked fears of a global recession.

I don't think the Prime Minister is a lapdog for Donald Trump at all. I think he's standing up for British people and British interests. I think also in all of that we have to look at Britain's long relationship with the United States as it's been over the last... last maybe 20 or so years and look have we maybe followed America far too blindly on some of their pursuits I think that's more of the question that we should be reflecting on and considering is actually where does Brin stand

I think Britain's in a unique position, kind of outside of the European Union, places the sceptre dial in the Atlantic between the United States. lot of opportunity for the united kingdom to take a very particular style of approach between trump and the european union and i hope that's what um

Mr. Starmer does. I think that's what he's doing and I think he's doing quite a good job in doing so. I think it's tough circumstances and I hope that many of us are behind him but at times I don't really envy him given some of the circumstances with the President of the United States. I find Donald Trump as distasteful and as destabilising. And I always find it bizarre that we've got a president in the White House who shares a lot of foreign policy.

disengagement views with Jeremy Corbyn as he does with any former president but What I'd say is obviously Keir Starmer has to get along with the president. It is and remains our most important economic and security partnership, although...

I personally, for example, would like to see a government engage more seriously with the idea of KANZUK as an international alliance. I think that would be a very stable... Sorry, what's that? Canada, New Zealand, Australia and the United Kingdom, the sort of, you know, the big former... Commonwealth countries, then we, I think, are a more stable relationship with the United States. The one criticism I would make at the moment, of course, is that...

Following the spring statement that we had last week, Rachel Reeves has once again only given herself £9.9 billion of fiscal headroom. which the OBR has said is now entirely reliant on Donald Trump not putting... trade tariffs on us. And I would have thought, given Rachel Reeves' promised economic stability, it would have been far more sensible to give herself at least double that headroom so we're not...

totally reliant economically on Donald Trump not putting tariffs on us. Because in effect, it may mean that the spring statement was completely redundant. Completely redundant, which is just as destabilising as she promised she wouldn't bring about. Mark Field, former Foreign Office Minister. Yes, I have some sympathy with Keir Starmer's view. I mean, this is diplomacy and we have to work with people across the world. And I think you're absolutely right. You know, US has been a great...

partner of ours. It is a very strong relationship and has been for the last century. I think one thing that is always worth Remembering, though, is that when we talk about America first as though this was something that was only brought about by Donald Trump, it's been American policy for a long time. Admittedly, Donald Trump is much more blatant about it. But if you look at what he's doing in relation to

to tariffs, you know, the Smith-Hawley tariffs that took place under Herbert Hoover and then under FDR. That was, again, a time when America put its own interests first. Personally, I think it would be... undesirable for us to follow and retaliate but I can well understand why the government might wish to retaliate although I think the better policy would be take the purest free market view, but take the view that we should not retaliate if... Why not? Well, because...

I'm afraid the history shows from the 1930s and then before that, you have a beggar behind your neighbour policy. If we retaliate, it just becomes a downward spiral of more and more retaliation. At some point, you want to stand. at all. The reality, of course, is that Britain is not as strong a nation as it was 100 years ago to be able to perhaps take a principled decision like that. I fear it's going to end in tears for Keir Starmer, though. I think Trump has very little support.

here in the UK. One is already seeing the way in which, perhaps somewhat opportunistically, the Liberal Democrats are very much positioning themselves as the anti-Trump party. And I think it's going to make life very difficult for... both within the Labour Party and beyond. But I think one has to give some credit at the moment. I think he's doing the right thing. And this is what diplomacy is about.

Well, obviously, we're disappointed with the decision about global tariffs. But we are an open trading nation. So there has been a decision? Well, there's a decision by Trump, we assume. That's what we're hearing. We're an open trading nation. a fair and balanced trading relationship with the United States and the trade war is in nobody's interests. And we are in the middle of intensive discussions with the US administration on an economic prosperity deal. Those discussions are ongoing.

going the Prime Minister spoke to President Trump last night We will, you know, we will do everything we can to stand up for industry in Britain. And industry in Britain is telling us they want a pragmatic solution to this. So this is about doing the hard yards, about the diplomacy, about the discussions and making sure that...

what we come out with at the end of this is a deal that's in the national interest. But if Trump puts tariffs, the same tariffs on us that he does on the European Union... That will effectively have rendered all Keir Starmer's diplomatic efforts over the past few months to try and be as reasonable as he can with Trump.

they will have failed, won't they? Well, let's see what happens. I mean, you know, we've seen, I'm thinking about the Mexico and Canada situation, what was, you know, put out first of all didn't then happen in the end. As I say, there are intensive discussions going on. We need to make sure that what comes out of those is in the national interest. How much work has your department and indeed the Welsh Government done to work out...

what effects there would be on Wales if some of these tariffs were imposed? Well... We know that there are particular sectors in Britain and some of those are in Wales as well that will be affected. I mean, obviously, we have Port Albert, Tata Steel in Port Albert in South Wales. And I was with Tata last week. You know, they are concerned.

about tariffs. They're concerned about tariffs in relation to their trade all over the world. But as I say, we are in negotiations and discussions, intensive discussions with the US administration at the moment. Whatever we do, it will be in the national interest. And at the moment, the car industry, the steel industry, the aluminium industry is saying to us, they don't want us to retaliate. They want a pragmatic solution. And that's what we'll seek to do.

Okay, thank you very much. 0345 6060 973 is the number to call if you'd like to put a question to our panel or you can WhatsApp or you can text on 84850. It's 8.31 on LBC. News headlines with Amelia Cox. The French far-right leader Marine Le Pen will fight a decision to bar her from running for public office for five years. She's been convicted of using EU money to fund staff and was also handed a four-year suspended jail sentence.

A search for an 11-year-old girl who entered the River Thames in East London earlier is being scaled back. The Met Police says it was called to the water near London City Airport this afternoon. A major incident's been declared in Birmingham as a strike by bin workers leaves thousands of tonnes of rubbish across the city. The local council's declaration will mean more street cleaning teams can be deployed.

LBC weather, dry tonight with mostly clear skies, patchy mist and fog in southern and eastern England and a low of one degree. This is LBC. Did you check that you turned the hub off? Are you still using that frayed phone charger? And did you switch off the heater next to the sofa? Did you blow out that candle in the bedroom? Do you have at least one smoke alarm on every floor? Are they working? Test them monthly. It could save your life. Fire kills. Let's prevent it.

Leading Britain's conversation. Cross-question with Ian Dale. Alexa, send a comment to LBC. 8.33, Joe Stephens, Secretary of State for Wales, Jovan Owusu-Nepal, Labour activist, political commentator, Mark Field, former Conservative MP and Minister, and Christian Calgi, senior political correspondent for the Daily Express. Who's the junior political correspondent?

that last time you were on. I don't consider anyone junior. Nobody's ever junior in the world of political journalism. We're all equal at the Express. Right. Another question from Joe in Bedford. Will the verdict against Marine Le Pen actually help the far right?

Now, Marine Le Pen has been sentenced to two years in prison for embezzlement of funds from the EU and also barred from running in the next presidential election. On social media this evening, she's posted, we are innocent and we will appeal, hoping that a judgment will take place. place before the elections in an interview with french broadcaster tf1 she said that millions of people in france will be deprived of voting for the favorite in the next election christian well

I'm not going to take a sort of what might be characterised as a Trumpian approach to this. Clearly there was a legal process and whilst there's an appeal taking place, to me it looks like there clearly was. crime committed and she is dealing with the consequence of that. What I would say and warn anyone in the centre or the left

in France or across Europe who might be celebrating the downfall of Marine Le Pen is to be very, very careful. We saw what happened with Trump when a populist leader can argue that the establishment is trying to take them down via non-democratic means, whether that's accurate or not, and whether it's Marine Le Pen or her protégé.

I don't think for a second that France can breathe any sort of sigh of relief and that the far right are just as much in contention at this election as they were before Marine Le Pen was found guilty earlier today. Clearly, the forces driving Marine Le Pen are not a personality cult. It is a much wider policy prospectus and problems going on in France.

the left and the centre should be just as much on their toes this evening as they were this morning. Mark Field? Yes, I think it will help the far right in France, and I think it was very ill-advised for the judiciary. to interfere in a political process as far as a parliamentary candidate or presidential candidate was concerned. It will play to all the grievance culture. which will be the idea that it's all being fixed, that this is a political fix.

points out we saw where this led with the multitude of legal cases against Donald Trump during the period after 2021. No, so I regret it. I think it's not. um not a great place i mean france of course as a society is also deeply, deeply divided on politics. And there's this great sense of conspiracy theory about politics driving much of the decision-making anyway. And I think this can only play into the hands of the far right out there.

Now, this is your audition for the role of Foreign Secretary, Jay, because you want to walk a diplomatic tightrope, but what's your answer? Well, I mean, you know, this is a live case. There's an appeal underway. It involves a politician and a judicial system in another country.

And I think it would be irresponsible of me as a member of the government to comment on the case. So I'm very interested to hear what others on the panel have got to say about it. I would make one point, though, it's quite interesting. The law behind the decision today, under which Marine Le Pen has been convicted, is a law that she supported and voted for to strengthen corruption laws in France. Make what you will of that. You've passed the audition.

Jovan, you said earlier you're 28 years old. Now, Marie Le Pen's deputy is 29 years old, so you're way behind in your political career. Anyway, back to the question, will the verdict against Marie Le Pen actually help the far right? Well, there's nothing more than what political extremes love than being or weaponising.

their kind of politics of grievance and suggesting that this is an establishment out to get them. And that plays into a narrative of people who have been largely disaffected, who have been able to rally around some populist character, a populist leader. And so this transcends much more, I think.

than the far right i think it speaks to a personality type that people are looking for for answers and so i think this absolutely propagates the rise of the far right in france and across europe because it only serves to enhance the narrative that

The establishment, whether that's the legislature or whether that's the judiciary, is working against the interests of very many people up and down France or across Europe. And I think it serves completely within their interests and will do a lot of damage. I fear so yeah that's kind of my position on that one and I think it is deeply dangerous and quite concerning I think there is a particular danger here which is that even though

Marine Le Pen is undeniably a far-right politician, lest we forget that... Oh, we had someone from The Spectator on earlier who's saying that she's wishy-washy-centric. Well, goodness me, who's that? Well, I know. Nigel Farage, for example, wouldn't even sit in a political grouping with... the Front National when he was an MEP but of course by comparison the alternative for Deutschland the German far right party probably do make Marine Le Pen look a bit of a wishy-washy centrist so actually

There's a very real danger here that you create a vacuum that sucks an even greater deal of ugly politics and radicalises people further and you end up with an even further right. presidents than you would have if they had taken the i think as mark said the the sensible political decision for the judiciary not to intervene so publicly in politics um How many of you are members of the Church of England or in any way religious? Anybody on the panel? Well, baptised into the Church of England, yes.

Right. Well, you'll be interested in this one then. Ashley in Ivy Bridge. How can we ever trust the church again after the arrogant behaviour of Justin Welby? Those of you who watch Sunday morning television will have seen him being interviewed by Laura Koonsberg yesterday. And I have to say... I watched it and I was just flabbergasted at what he was coming out with. Didn't seem to have any empathy, didn't seem to understand.

really why he had to resign. He said he would forgive John Smythe, the main culprit that caused his resignation, whereas what of course he should have said was, well that's up to God to decide rather than me. This seems to me to have damaged his reputation even further. And you wonder why he did the interview, Mark Field. I wonder. I mean, I didn't actually watch that interview, but I've watched other interviews.

I wouldn't want to question his ecclesiastical position at all, whether it's God's will or the ex-Archbishop of Canterbury's. But, yeah, it's... Listen, it is fair to say that these sorts of issues, sexual misconduct in particular, what was a norm 20 or 30 years ago and of course the covering up of a lot of and it happened of course in the House of Commons as well as in other institutions you know that has I think played a part that has meant that

Perhaps people are less attuned with current modern-day thinking. But the advice, if I had been advising Justin Welby, would be given... where he stands on this issue, we'd better not have done an interview such as that. Because you're right. I mean, I think it can only lead to more and more, again, distrust about...

It applies to a number of institutions in public life, from Parliament to the BBC, etc., where there have been... incidents that have happened, often historic ones, but nonetheless, where clearly there's been an error of judgment that has obviously been magnified with the way that people look at these issues today.

I fear there's going to be even less trust now in the established church. Of course, the Catholic Church has also had its issues around sexual misconduct of priests as well. So it's, yeah. It's, I think, a very, very difficult situation which requires either empathy.

or individuals just feeling not to go public. There doesn't seem to be anybody in the senior echelons of the Church of England, possibly barring the Bishop of Newcastle, who has any idea as to how to address this issue. Joe Stephens. I didn't see the interview. I've only read reports of it. Like Mark, I'm very surprised that he did it.

I mean, I'm more concerned about the victims. I'm more concerned about how we address this so that it doesn't happen again in the future, which is why as a government we're introducing mandatory reporting for... child sex abuse where people if they're suspicious or concerned about something they will have an obligation on them to report and we're also implementing the recommendations of the child abuse inquiry getting on with that.

because I'm afraid the last government sat on their hands and didn't implement any of the recommendations. They implemented some, but not all. Jovan? Yeah, it seemed quite arrogant. distasteful and quite disconnected from the actual issues and those who've been a victim of such a horrific circumstance and i fear that when we have these types of conversation the victims largely are used as to some point a bit of a political football and it's

used and rallied around by various voices, whether that's in Parliament, whether that's in the church or wherever else. And I think we need to refocus our attention on some of the people who have experienced some of the horrific abuse, maybe consider that.

experiences and feelings in all of this but I think the arrogance and kind of distastefulness of how it came across was particularly concerning and I don't think it would do much good for some of the victims so yeah But then I would also say that he...

The Church of England is bigger than the man and I'm sure there are very many good people who are associated with the Church of England and it's just a shame that someone who is at the top of the church came out and came across in such a way but I'm sure there are very many people who are.

fairly decent honest good people christian i think one of the I was listening to your take on the interview, and there was part of me that started thinking, well, I think that's a bit unfair, Ian, because, you know, at the end of the day, this is a religious leader, this is the head of a religion that preaches forgiveness, even of undescribable...

Horrific acts and he's not a politician, but then I it just you know, it came back to me that One of the worst things about Justin Welby is he spent so many years leading the Church of England and trying to be a politician, butting into all sorts of contentious political debates. And yet he seems to have come away with none of the, as you might observe, the skills of knowing when not to put your foot in something, not to sound completely uncompassionate for victims.

I think he's just a completely skilless, self-interested sort of man. And aside from the clear and blatant both failures to protect victims and then the failure to actually get on top of the issue before it ran away from him.

You look at what's happened to church congregations during his time, what I would describe as a focus by the leadership of the Church of England on metropolitan... debates that have no bearing on the lives of parishioners up and down the country and i really hope and i can think of some vicars that are fairly prominent that would be a good replacement but you're right to observe that you look across the board

at various archbishops, including York, and there are calls for him to go as well over this whole debacle. And it really does pain me to see the state that the Church of England is in and the state that Justin Welby has left it in after a very long time leading it.

Well, we're going to talk more about this after nine o'clock. It's the subject of our nine o'clock phone-in. So if you have views on the Justin Wellby interview yesterday and what he said, and we'll play you some chunks of it so you can make up your own minds. But I suppose the overarching question... will be well what does it say about the church of england when its former archbishop can say some of the things he did yesterday

in such an unempathetic way, with no self-knowledge, with no realisation of some of the decisions that he, well, didn't make, actually, and the consequences of them. So that's coming up after nine here on LBC. Cross Question with Ian Dale on LBC. 8.48 is the time on LBC. Joe Stevens is here, Joe Vanawasso, Nepal, Mark Field and Christian Calgi. Right.

let's go to a text question from alistair in bath should we all accept that we already have a two-tier justice system and that's exactly what the sentencing council wants to fix now in 2022-23 black men were 2.4 times as likely to be arrested as white men. There were 38.2 arrests for every thousand black men and 16 for every thousand white men.

A 2016 MOJ report found that compared with white people, other ethnic groups were over-represented at the arrest stage. They were also over-represented in being tried at Crown Court rather than a magistrate's court, custodial remand and... plea at Crown Court, custodial sentencing and adjudications of prison discipline. Jo Stevens. So we have a principle in this country that everybody must be equal before the law. and the sentencing council issue that's referred to in that question.

There was due to be publication and implementation of some new guidelines from the Sentencing Council tomorrow, which would have required in cases where there was somebody with... particular characteristics including race or religion for there to be a pre-sentence report and for their membership of a particular demographic cohort to be taken into account.

I think the Lord Chancellor, Siobhan Mahmood, has been put in a very difficult situation through these guidelines, which were welcomed by the previous Conservative government. The legacy of that she's had to deal with, and I'm very... pleased that today she has ensured that the sentencing council has climbed down from their position because we are introducing legislation tomorrow where we're going to extract that particular

bit of the guideline out and it will not be implemented. But aren't you letting down minority people by doing just that? No, because the principle of equality before the law is absolutely fundamental. Now, I don't dispute... But we don't have equality. before the law as these figures demonstrate? We're talking about disparities in outcomes.

This is a situation about everybody going before the law and being equal, but there are disparities in outcome. We know this. And the Lord Chancellor has ordered a review of the evidence around it. As you know, David Gawke, the former Conservative... Justice Secretary or Attorney General.

We have asked him to do a review on sentencing and we are awaiting that review and it's perfectly possible there'll be some further sentencing legislation later in the year once we have the recommendations from that review. Jovan, on this panel, you're the only person from an ethnic minority. Where do you stand on this? Well, firstly, I think you're absolutely right. We are equal before the law, at least, that we should be. I mean, this is a particularly difficult one because for me, I mean...

That premise is absolutely foundational to the type of society that we want to live in. But we can't overlook the fact that there are disparities that exist right up until people have any interactions with the law that can lead to particular outcomes. disparities in education, disparities in housing, potentially a lack of opportunity that may exist for a lot of ethnic minority people, the institutional racism that exists within policing. These are all kind of build-up factors before someone...

is presented before the law. So for me at least with this, I'd like to see some of those issues rectified and the government take a more staunch and stronger approach to remedy some of those institutional prejudices before we arrive at the end. should I say, when people have that interaction before the law. I think if the government...

was quite serious about looking at the inequalities that exist for black and brown people and ethnic minorities in this country. They would take the initial steps that I mentioned around housing, around education, to remedy some of these problems. But I think when it comes to that equal before...

the law that is something that should absolutely be set in stone that should be something that is foundational that should be irrefutable we have to look at those inequalities that exist before someone interacts with the law as it stands

Have you got any personal experience with this? Well, I mean, I used to live in Lewisham and I remember coming back from the library and I had a load of books in my bag and a police officer stopped me at about two o'clock in the morning after I'd... been writing an essay or so and was curious as to what i was doing and was quite confrontational and quite aggressive and it obviously wasn't a nice experience i was just doing what i was told in uh writing my uni essay and so i see how

the law is misapplied to particular communities I now live in South London in Brixton and you can see all the time how there is over policing of particular communities and yet in different parts of London Clapham up the road you'll see middle-class white kids

middle class white kids get away with so much more than what I see happen to some young black kids in South London. So that's a huge issue. You can see the misapplication of the law. But I do think that... that equal before the law is absolutely foundation and and there has to be some form of training to recognize that there are biases within that system and until we accept that there are biases and that the government and people are willing to take which is quite a bold step

of recognising that they do have particular prejudices, unconscious prejudices, nothing will change. So I think it's quite right that the Lord... has taken a step back on this because I think it disrupts how we practice the law in this country. I think it's been reassuring to see how Shabana Mahmood has handled this.

um clearly it would have been morally outrageous and if we're going to be talking about The application of the law and making sure it's applied fairly across the board, regardless of demographic, that is clearly something for politicians. to lead and for the police to deal with when it comes to that sort of initial interaction. What it is not the responsibility of is an unelected quango.

that has only been around for 15 years, to take it upon themselves to try and arbitrarily decide who goes to prison and who doesn't in order to affect... statistics, I find that to be morally reprehensible. So I'm very glad of today's outcome, although it doesn't go far enough. For example, it took the threat of legislation by the government to get the sentencing council to back down.

Clearly they should have backed down when the Secretary of State for Justice personally intervened some weeks ago to say that it was wrong and shouldn't be going ahead. And even now they've only said they're going to suspend the introduction until that legislation. comes in It's completely wrong. They should scrap it entirely and not force MPs to waste valuable legislating time to get this position banned. As far as I'm concerned, many quangos are well past their sell-by date.

and I'd put the sentencing council near the top of that list. Bring in Elon Musk, eh? Fine. We'll come on to that quango thing in just a moment or two. The slight concern I have here is that there are some protected... characteristics that are not necessarily in the eyes of a sentencing council. For example, lower socioeconomic groups. Should that be a protected characteristic?

Where I think Christian is right about this whole issue with Quangos is that we set up things like the Sentencing Council. They pride themselves on being independent and therefore almost above politics.

come out with a lot of things that then begin to unravel. And the worry, and we all know what it's like, Joe and I have both been ministers, we are so busy on day-to-day work, you don't know where the next... major problem is going to come from and I suspect there are quite a lot of independent bodies that are putting these sorts of measures into place that actually determine how a particular policy is worked through and It's only really when it comes to light that suddenly we've seen this this

headlong rush to get the legislation onto the statute book to overturn it. I suspect there are There are various other quangos that are doing all sorts of things in a whole range of different areas of public policy that could be the next scandal that comes into play. This is part of the problem that we have, the way in which we are governed, that we do give a lot of power to so-called independent.

bodies such as the Sentencing Council, and they are anything but independent. You know, clearly they have an agenda of their own. It's an agenda that sometimes one might agree with or disagree with. But that, I think, is at the nub of the problem. government is just so busy that it's only when it becomes a crisis and something blows up that you actually deal with it but it's interesting what you said about um

It's essentially outsourcing decisions of government, which we have seen happen. And actually, Keir Starmer spoke about this a couple of weeks ago, saying that we need to stop doing that. We need to draw the decision-making back into government. Ministers should be making decisions.

The Lord Chancellor has said she's going to review the role and the powers of the Sentencing Council. She's willing to legislate again in the summer if that's necessary. But it's right to take a bit of time now that we've... got this issue out of the way to consider more fundamental reform but I don't think you and I disagree on the fact that you know we need to bring back in that decision making to government because it's for government and ministers to take those decisions.

follower of fashion you'll be interested in our fun question the fashion brand Balenciaga Balenciaga Balenciaga I stand corrected has released a coffee cup crafted from calf skin in the land centre forward, yes. Let me start again. Fashion brand Balenciaga has released a coffee cup crafted from calfskin, which is on the market for over four grand. And many celebrities and the LA elite have already been using them, including Jeff. Bezos' fiancé

Was it Bezos? So what is a popular trend that you once got involved in that you now regret? Mine is the extra skinny jeans. That's from Helen, not me, because I've never worn skinny jeans, as you might expect. Try them out. Well, you don't wear them, do you? Christian? I'm afraid to say that I...

A lot of my friends did YouTube videos, given I was born in 1997 and I participated in that. And I've just about wiped the memory of them. But maybe they're on a hard drive somewhere and Russia will release them at some point to kibosh any political career. I may be considering. Mark?

I'm afraid I was always a conformist as I was growing up. In fact, I do say in my book, having been 13 when punk rock came into being in 1977, I certainly wasn't into that. And so I fear that there's nothing really that fits the bill here. As for jeans, whether skinny or otherwise, I've never possessed a pair of them, I must confess. Oh, my God. You've just ruined everything. Nobody will buy your book now without a confession. Jo Stevens. Well, I can't give you a fashion example.

But I can give you a hair example. So I was a teenager in the 80s and the big curly perm. That's the thing that I'm most worried about. Longer than Kevin Keegan, but quite Kevin Keegan. Ian and I are just envious. One of your colleagues in Wales... Carolyn Harris, she has interesting colours of hair sometimes, doesn't she? She does, she does. And Liz Savile Roberts as well, is this a Welsh thing? Not that I'm aware of, but I think they both look beautiful, and why not?

proving your diplomatic talents once again. Jovan? Well, firstly, I'd like to think that I was a trendsetter more than having embarrassing traits, but... I do remember I must have been about 16 and I had a bit of an embarrassing mohawk.

It went straight down the middle, and it was like a little triangle on the top of my head. It didn't look... Well, at the time, I thought it was very, very cool. You kind of got one now. Well, I mean, I hope it's a bit better than that than when I was 16. But, yeah, I had... What now looks like quite an embarrassing... an awful haircut, which I paraded proudly when I was at school. So the little ones are mohawks and the big ones are all...

But that was a Mohican. That was when I was there. Yeah, they were in when I was a teenager. Well, my embarrassing thing for my youth was wearing wedges. And given I was even then six foot two. It was possibly a bit of a mistake. Thank you all very much indeed for coming on the show this evening. Tomorrow's panel includes Labour MP Satvia Kaur, Sir Roger Gale from the Conservatives, The Spectator political journalist William Atkinson,

and the podcaster and comedian, Ade Thompson. This is LBC from Global, leading Britain's conversation with Ian Dale. Gordon says, I'm betting you owned a pair of Dealey boppers in the 80s, Ian. I can assure you I did not because I've no idea what a dealy bopper is. And I hope I haven't said something which is going to get me into trouble with Ofcom. A very good evening to you, particularly if you've just joined us.

I should say, particularly if you've been with us since seven o'clock, shouldn't I? We're going to talk about the Church of England and Justin Welby. over the next hour, because he did what I think was a very ill-advised interview with Laura Koonsberg of the BBC yesterday. It was quite a long interview. And I couldn't quite work out why he would have done it, because he left office in total disgrace.

because of the way that he failed to handle the various child abuse scandals within the Church of England. And at least he was honest, I suppose, where he said that when he came into the... office in 2013 he was staggered by the volume of cases that were being referred to his office he said they had half a person

on safeguarding issues at the time and that it was overwhelming he said i use that not as an excuse but as a reason to which i was sitting there shaking my head thinking what on earth are you talking about Because it's not a reason, or it's certainly not an excuse,

If you identify that you haven't got enough people dealing with the issue, you get more people to deal with it. The Church of England is one of the richest institutions in the country, and so it could have easily devoted a few more resources. to investigating the extent of child abuse in the Church of England. He said there were cases coming in literally every day, every week, and he was overwhelmed. So he did nothing.

I mean, I ask you, why would you go on television and use that as your justification? Because I just thought it was completely outrageous. And then... Laura Kinsberg started asking him about John Smythe, somebody that he knew. I won't say he was a friend of his, but he certainly knew him and turned a blind eye, it seems to me.

to what was being alleged about John Smythe, who then scalped out of the country, went to South Africa and Zimbabwe, and then got a good luck message from the Archbishop of Canterbury. Wait, what on earth? was he thinking of and throughout his what 11 years in office he didn't seem to understand

why this was such an important issue. And it caught up with him in the end. I've always regarded Justin Welby as a follower rather than a leader on all sorts of different issues, whether you're talking about the role of women in the Church of England. or gay equality in the Church of England.

He certainly has a difficult job, I don't deny that. He had to keep the Anglican Church together on all of these different issues. But sometimes you do actually have to be a leader of people, not just a follower of what you think. is public opinion. So I want to ask you in this hour if you watch that interview with Laura Koonsberg

Did you have a higher opinion of Justin Welby after it than you had at the beginning? Did you, like me, wonder why on earth he did it? Whose advice was he taking to do it? And if he was taking someone's advice to do it... Why didn't they coach him in what to answer? I mean, let's just listen to this answer he gave where he was asked if he forgave the abuser John Smythe. Yes. I think... if he was alive and I saw him. But it's not... it's not me he's abused. He's abused the victims.

and survivors. So whether I forgive or not is to a large extent irrelevant. What matters is are the survivors in... And everyone responds differently to abuse. But are the survivors sufficiently loved by the church and cared for and are... enabled, liberated to rebuild their lives, after that you can start talking about forgiveness. Incredible, wasn't it?

The fact that he actually said yes. Now you can argue, well, it is part of the Christian religion, all about forgiveness, so you might expect somebody, a man of the cloth, to say that. But then he rode back on it, didn't he? Because he then, I think, realised... that he'd probably said the wrong thing and said, well, of course, it's not up to me. It's what I think is irrelevant. Well, it isn't irrelevant. You were the leader of the Church of England.

At the time these cases were brought to you, and frankly, you didn't do enough about it. Am I being unkind? I don't think I am. 0345 6060973 is the number to call. What long-term effect is this having on the Church of England more generally? Several people I know don't go to church anymore because of this. Because I say, how can I worship at the altar of a church that behaves in this way? And you can understand that, can't you?

Well, Bishop Stephen Lowe joins me, former Bishop of Hume in the Anglican Diocese of Manchester. Stephen, great to talk to you after all these years. Thank you for coming on the programme. Hello, Ian. It's nice to be with you. Although I must say, I share your despair. Well, I'm rather relieved that you do because I think the natural thing for anybody who has spent as long as you have in the Church of England...

I mean, it's an institution that I think a lot of people come to love. And then this sort of thing happens and it shakes their faith, not in God, but in the church. Or maybe it does shake their faith in God as well. So tell me what your reaction to it is. this interview well i was first of all full of how can i put it dread when i heard he was going to do it and though i watched it on sunday morning and my heart just sank because i think

At every moment, he made enormous errors of judgment on the way he tried to come across. There was a sort of self-justification underneath it all, which was totally unnecessary because he... had to recognise that he did it. beat his breast and said, it was all my fault and I did all things wrong and so on and so forth. But why do that again on television after the appalling speech he made in the House of Lords, where he sort of was laughing.

at his own predicament and in a way he needed to be quiet and possibly for the rest of his life publicly but certainly for many months until a new archbishop has managed to get him or herself into position and recover some of the lost ground amongst... people who actually look to leadership in the church, to offer an example of good practice rather than what Welby has offered, which I'm afraid has been succession after succession of...

failed attempts to hold the church together or to manage safeguarding properly, which he from 2013 onwards drastically failed to do. One of the things that he also said was, well, it's not my fault, Garth. It was the fault of the Synod because I can't, as effectively the chief executive of the Church of England, I have no power. I can't just make decisions. It all has to go.

through the synod now is there any element of truth in that um and not about safeguarding, although I think he was talking about the issue of independent supervision of safeguarding in the Church of England, which is slightly more complicated. because Synod took a decision not to go entirely to independent safeguarding immediately because it takes time to set up such a safeguarding.

safeguarding authority and also It's fair to say that since Ball and Smythe, the Church of England has sorted itself out very radically in terms of the number of people. It's got involved in safeguarding. There are now literally hundreds of employed. safeguarding officers in all the dioceses, and every parish has its own safeguarding officer, a volunteer, but properly trained. But what does it say? What does it say about the church?

OK, but what does it say about the Church of England that these safeguarding officers are even needed? Oh, any institution, and I think it's probably fair to say that one could quote things like the British Broadcasting Corporation. and many other national institutions where safeguarding has become an issue. It's there daily in our papers. And I'm afraid most of our national institutions, our schools, our prisons and so on, have all got issues.

to do with safeguarding. And it's something which I think our nation has become much more aware of the need to properly manage and protect children over the last 10-15 years. result of some awful scandals. In terms of what happens now in the church, it seems remarkable to me that there isn't constant newspaper speculation about who Welby's successor is going to be. And you're far more plugged into this than I am.

don't see any big names sort of coming to the fore in this um who might you nominate

Well, there aren't any big names. That's one of the interesting aspects of, I'm afraid, what's happened over the last 10 years or so. The problem is that, dare I say it, the evangelical carder of the Church of England, represented by a church called Holy Trinity Brompton, which has... spread its gospel of evangelism into the church big time and has sucked an enormous amount of resource in the belief that somehow or other they could convert.

the nation, they have created, how can I put it, a cadre of bishops who lack the depth and theology and spirituality of former times i mean i just listened the other day to on thought for the day to richard harris the former bishop of oxford who had that quality about him. The former Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, who is still preaching, teaching, working in all sorts of ways, was quite a remarkable Archbishop, whom I love dearly.

and commanded respect because of who and what he was and the way he approached things. I'm afraid both George Carey and... Justin Welby, have let down the evangelicals very badly. And I'm looking for somebody who has got a quality around their... Ability to be able to understand an inclusive gospel which welcomes... people of all sexualities and none. And it has got a love for people which radiates out from them and an understanding of...

Another dimension of life, if you like, what some people call mindfulness, but actually the need for a quieter spirituality within our lives. Looking for those people who've got that is quite a problem amongst the present bench of bishops. Some of the women have it.

And I would love it if we found that our next Archbishop was going to be a woman, because that would mark a very real change in the nature of... the church which has become far too male-dominated over recent years and it would be lovely to have that degree of change, if you like, within the life of the church.

Let me throw a name at you, the Bishop of Newcastle, the Right Reverend Dr Helen Anne Hartley, who probably did more to dethrone Justin Welby than anyone else, but she may well be punished for that. But she seems to get it. She does get it. I think she's, for me, would be a candidate. But the problem is that there are a number within the bench of bishops who would find it very difficult.

to allow her name to go forward. Mind you, there is a very complicated process for the appointment of the Archbishop. We're talking about a large committee now of people who actually... make the nomination, representing the diatists of... Canterbury, the Church of England as a whole, the Anglican Communion now have got, I think, six places on the committee, on the commission, as it's called, as well as the Archbishop of York.

and one of the people who was a candidate in many people's eyes, the Bishop of Norwich, Graham Usher, who has allowed himself to go forward onto the commission, therefore ruling himself out. saying, I didn't want the job. You can hardly blame them, can you? You can't know who would want the job. But, I mean, what is... Also fascinating to me, Ian, is that it seems that Welby did not surround himself with good advisers. I mean, even now, who on earth?

encouraged him to accept Laura Koonsberg invitation. I mean, it was a disaster waiting to happen. And, you know, who has been giving him advice over the years? Because... If you're in a position of authority, as the Archbishop of Canterbury is, you have got plenty of people around you to give you advice, including another bishop, usually, you know, somebody with enormous experience. What happened? What went wrong?

Well, Scott in West Hampstead has got an idea. He says that Bishop Stephen Lowe should put himself forward. He would be a great Archbishop of Canterbury. You're far too progressive for them, aren't you, Stephen? I'm far too progressive and I'm also far too old. Never let it be said. Far too flat out. You sound like a 45-year-old. Ideal for the job. Thank you very much indeed for joining us. That's Bishop Stephen Lowe there, former Bishop of Hume.

in the Anglican Diocese of Manchester. We were doing paper reviews together on late night radio on another station about, what, 20 years ago. God doesn't time fly. Right, we're going to come to your calls on the future of the Church of England. What does this interview, even if you didn't see it, you will have read about it, you will have heard about it. I'm going to play you another little section of it in just a couple of minutes' time. I want to know what effect you think it might have.

on the future of the Church of England. 0345 6060 973 is the number to call if you'd like to talk to me about Justin Welby, his interview yesterday, and also what this means for the future of the Church of England. Maybe as somebody who's...

rather reluctantly left the church over the past couple of years because of this kind of issue. How do you think the Church of England can get back on an even keel? Does it partly depend on who they select as Justin Welby's successor? I don't know why it's taking so long.

to say now let me play you another section of this interview it's not a long section but justin wellby made note of how busy he was at the time of these incidents but seemed to acknowledge that the buck does stop with him It was overwhelming, one was trying to prioritise, and we knew with Peter Ball that there were numerous victims and survivors, one of whom, one of the victims had committed suicide.

That was so horrific and it seemed so much bigger. But I think it's easy to sound defensive over this. The reality is I got it wrong. I did not do as Archbishop. There are no excuses. Being overwhelmed is a reason, it isn't an excuse. There are no excuses for that kind of failure. And the police, to be clear, are very firm that when they're investigating, nobody else is to do anything.

A few years later, as I was more confident in the post, I would have said yes, but what are you doing? I would have pushed harder. I don't make any excuses. But he was making excuses all through that interview. The first excuse was, well, we didn't have enough resources. Well, that's easily remedied. If you're the head of an organisation, you are in the position of power to divert resources to dealing with these issues. 0345 6060 973. Let's go to Ian in Southampton.

Hello Ian. Hello Ian. How are you doing my friend? I'm good thank you. What would you like to say? I got abused at school. And that's part of the reason, Ian, when I heard about this on the news, that I cannot forgive. I just simply cannot forgive. And whether that makes me a bad person or not, It doesn't make you a bad person. I mean, obviously, if you are a religious person, forgiveness is a key tenet of Christianity.

I think your reaction is a human reaction. And I suspect that not only can you not forgive the person that did it to you, you can't forgive the people that maybe knew about it and didn't do anything, assuming that was the case. Yes, that was the case, Ian, and I wasn't believed at the time, plus the fact it was a blind school, and I'm registered blind. And that made it 50 times as worse. And although this happened 53 years ago, it still comes back to me on the odd occasions. How old were you?

I was only 14 at the time, Ian. You see, it does make it worse, doesn't it? I mean, when you said that, I was thinking, does that make it worse? But it really does. Yeah. And whether Jesus is angry with me for not being able to forgive, this isn't my sin, Ian. It's death. And I'm sorry if I feel like this, mate. Well, you shouldn't feel sorry.

Anybody who went through what you went through, you can't just compartmentalise these things. You said that it comes back to you from time to time. Well, there will be other people that this happens to where it is... truly a daily memory even if it is 50 years ahead it can dominate the rest of people's lives can't it yeah but then the screaming in my head gets to such a pitch where i i've got

to ring the Samaritans and the rape crisis people. And I need them, and I also need my sister Debbie. Had it not been for her, I wouldn't. Had it not been for the Samaritans, Ian, I really wouldn't be here. And I'm sorry about that, my friend, but if... They could have believed me. Had they have said, sorry, we didn't actually mean to do what we did, then maybe I would have just said, okay, don't worry about it. But they didn't.

And it took two staff to believe me in the end. And I was so glad to leave that schooling in. And I don't want to be... You see, I don't... I'm friendly with LBC and I'm... Had it not been for you wonderful people as well, and I cried on air that night, and I felt badly about that. But I don't want it to make, I don't want... you at LBC or even you I'm talking to now I don't want you to I'm not saying this horribly Ian so please don't get it the wrong way around my friend

I don't want you to get the wrong idea that I'm doing this because this is how I feel. And I don't think that the Church of England... going to change in answer to your question? Well, I think it can change, but it's going to take proper leadership for it to do so. And Justin Welby didn't provide that. proper leadership in my view. Now I'm quite happy to hear from people who think that he did all he could and defend him.

But should we say my switchboard is not overflowing with calls making that point? Because I think it is a very difficult argument to make. Well, my point is just simply, Ian, I have been abused. And I know what it's like. And God forbid I wouldn't want that to happen to anybody. No. And I hope you don't think I've been horrible, mate. I don't think you're being horrible at all. I think you've been incredibly courageous. I'm sorry if I'm starting to cry. Look, never apologise.

Ian, never apologise for being true to yourself, showing your real beliefs, your real feelings. No one is ever going to criticise you for that. And never apologise for being a little bit emotional, because who wouldn't be after that?

sort of experience and I think the fact that you are able to ring me and talk about it is a great thing because there are many people who would not be able to do what you've done and I pay tribute to you for doing it well thank you very much Ian means a lot to me when I listen to LBC a lot and I do ring them a lot for other things but when the anniversaries come around I can't focus on anything. And it's really horrible when that happens, my friend. It really is.

Let me tell you my text screen here. I've got a lot of texts paying tribute to you as well. Ravi says, brave man. Somebody says, it makes me even more angry about Welby. When I listen to the caller, all decent people are with him. It's the most disgusting thing to abuse children.

Well, I think we can all agree with that. So listen, a lot of your fellow LBC listeners, Ian, are saying exactly what I've said. So when you put down the phone, just reflect upon the fact that nobody is criticising you. Nobody thinks badly of you. In fact, we all think... Thank you very much indeed. I think we also have to... think about is it apparently took justin wellby a long time to meet any victims of child sexual abuse in the church of england and

What I think he needed to do was listen. OK, Ian wasn't abused in the church, but he was abused at a school. But what he needed to do was to listen.

to people's lived experiences and i know that's a very sort of 21st century expression but how do you learn about something if you haven't experienced it yourself you can't possibly comprehend the awfulness of what's happened until you talk to people who it's happened to and i can't believe that if he had listened to people like ian back in 2013 he wouldn't have done more than he did 0345 6060 973. 9.36 here on LBC. We're talking about Justin Welby, the Church of England.

and his ill-advised interview yesterday on the BBC. Lots and lots of people texting and whatsapping in about Ian in Southampton and his call. Mary says, I'm sending in a hearty hug and love. uh trish says omg it just shows you never get over it and says i have tears in my eyes listening to the caller he is in turn of what he's such a wonderful man

And anonymous one here, your caller has me crying tears of empathy. I was also abused 55 years ago, not in a religious context, and it still affects me. And that's... That's, I think, possibly one of the lessons that we're learning, isn't it? That if this sort of thing happens to you, you can never totally get over it. You can't forget something like that. You can't push it from your memory.

And it's an unfortunate side effect of when you do phone-ins like this, you do it in the full knowledge that there will be people who maybe haven't thought about what happened to them, maybe for... A week, maybe for a month, maybe a year, maybe 10 years. But you talk about it and you know that it is going to bring back some terrible, terrible memories. But if we don't hear from people and their experiences, how can we possibly learn?

Let's go to Julian in Havant in Hampshire. Hello, Julian. Good evening, Ian. And the great voice you've got. Thank you. You're creating some amazing space, Ian, here, and my heart. Also, I'd like to join the queue for Ian. many survivors will be crying and they've had their time of crying and still cry. Many hurdles to cross in this battle with Church of England abuse. Did you watch the interview with Justin Welby? I did.

And I have met senior bishops. And part of me, to be honest with you, I don't think he's an evil man, if I'm honest. I don't feel that's the issue. Because when he was asked about that issue, I think they're desperate, the bishops, to use biblical language now, a bit too late about forgiveness and giving people a bit of time. And forgiveness is absolutely key. And I'll tell you a reason why.

Ian, that is important. But I think, to be honest, Welby shouldn't take all the hit here. I think it will be the lawyers, the internal civil servants and the insurers. I think that they need to be brought to account. as to the reasons why they actually decided to not have a problem when survivors came forward. And I think it's unfair to dump everything at Justin Welby's door.

To be honest with you, I think Justin could have been surrounded by decent people, people like survivors that could genuinely help things move forward. But unfortunately, a lot of these bishops run to the lawyers, run to the insurers to not have a problem. And I think there are good people in the church. There are good bishops that want to do something, but very few come forward. Bishop of Newcastle, amazing.

But look at the flag she got for telling the truth. Sorry? But why do you think it is that so – I think I'm right in saying there are 43 bishops. I'm not sure how many we've heard from on this. I can only recall interviewing two or three. Now, that means nothing in the wider sense. But there's been a lot of them that have just sort of kept their heads under the parapet.

And you wonder why that is. I'm not making allegations against them. I just think that they've been rather weak. Well, absolutely weak. And that's really sad. And Jesus must be crying over this, thinking, I called you. You're cold as a bishop, apparently. The spirit behind what you're doing, you should be actually pastoring your flock. That's the whole point of a bishop. If you're not doing that, give that job to someone else.

And quite frankly, they need a completely clean sweep. To be honest with you, there were some good generals out there. My father was a senior chaplain in the army. And we met some amazing people with leadership skills. And I think... Why can't we have a CEO-level Archbishop? Why does it have someone that's climbed the greasy pole to get to the point top?

where they probably had all friends and stuff. Lots of times we have conflicts of interest in the church. I think having a basic... having a basic belief in god is probably a prerequisite for the job although you see even that i remember justin wellby questioning his own belief in god at one point i'm thinking what on earth are you doing in that position If you're openly talking about the fact that you're not sure of your belief anymore. It's unbelievable.

Well, no, to be fair to him, I just think that was an honest bit. I think it's not easy hearing that. Of course it's not. But I think he was genuinely trying to probably say, look, you know, it's not easy, this stuff. It's not an easy walk with Christ to move forward and read the Bible and be a good boy and a good girl all day and be all kind and gentle. I mean, you can't do that stuff 24-7. My problem is that the amazing, lovely survivors that I know...

have been treated with utter contempt. And I've asked for biblical stories and language from bishops for years to say, look, there's a bit in the Bible that talks about taking Christians to court and all that stuff. And then you think, oh my gosh, I'm doing that. I'm going against God. But they're not prepared to really reach out in the spirit of Christ. And that, for me, is the massive problem. I was re-abused. I went to prep school.

Went through horrendous stuff there, went to someone from the church, abused by that person, senior, and took it to court, found not guilty. But a year later, and this is just some hope for some people out there. Hope is important. I bumped into the abuser in the street in South London. I said, look, you know the truth about what the case was.

I know the truth and certainly God will know the truth. But to be honest with you, I don't want you in my frame of reference, my spirit for the rest of my life. So I'd love to pray for you. And I want to forgive you. And he said, all right, then please, that'd be great. So I prayed for him. And seriously, Ian, he hit the floor in tears. And I'll tell you what, there was a massive exchange in that point. Something lifted from me.

And he was trying to hear that's between him and his maker. It's not for me to judge him. So I think when the church and bishops are trying to say, look, use some of that language, I think it is important, you know. But if they kept Christ at the centre and actually engaged and did some mediation with survivors, with God in the room, I think we wouldn't be in this mess we're in now. See, that is such an important...

I was going to say story. It's not a story, is it? Because it actually happened. But it's such an important thing that you've said there because that says so much more about you than it does about him. If that had been me, I suspect my... instinct would have been to, if I'd come across him in the street, would have been to hit him? Well, I know that, Ian, but being a former policeman, I know the dangers where people take it out on stuff. And I think it is important to keep a level ahead.

One vicar said to me, I don't even know why you bother to come to church again. I'm currently dealing with another case. It's really hard to report stuff. The bishops, they've got bishops protocol. But I tell you what, the more you go into this, the more dark it is. And seriously, and people join a little club, they want to not have a problem. They want to kick cases into the long grass. And I think that's absolutely evil. So I do encourage people to worship Christ.

get in with Christ, the Christ. But unfortunately, I used to think it'd be safe to just talk to a bishop, have a chat. He had a closer relationship with God than me, knows more theology. Who am I with my five O levels? And that's the problem. It's a massive power imbalance. And I think anybody who's listening to this, who's in leadership, that really needs to come forward and say it as it is, they'll be helping a lot of survivors. And I think that weakness...

that's pervaded the air up and down the country and abroad is absolutely a disgrace. You know, sometimes, Dad preached once, and at the end, he said, you know, about... You know, come to me and all this sort of stuff. And right at the end, I can't remember the verse. I don't read the Bible enough, unfortunately. But at the end, it said, get away from me. I never knew you. And I think that's a verse that a lot of leadership need to really think about.

when dealing with and having the privilege of dealing with survivors within the Church of England. Well, if I ever had any doubts about doing this hour, both Ian and you have dispelled all of them because... I think you've both been so honest. You've given us your own lived experiences. And I think we've all learned a lot from you. So, Julian, thank you very much indeed to you for phoning in as well.

Ian Dale on LBC. 9.49 on LBC. We're talking about Justin Welby and the future of the Church of England because basically he doesn't have one within it. He resigned, which is to his credit. He did, in the end, take responsibility for the failures of the Church of England in investigating child abuse. Maybe you might think I'm being a bit hard on both him and the Church of England.

I was equally hard on the BBC for not investigating their issues in this. And there are so many of our institutions. What we have to realise is that it's not just the church. It's not just the BBC. It's in our education system. It's in our health service. It's in private business. It's basically in every institution of our society.

That's not an exaggeration. We know it. We certainly know it on this radio station from the people who phone in and give their own experiences of what's happened to them, whether it's 50, 60, 70 years ago or whether it's two years ago. This is a societal problem, and it's not just exclusive to one institution. But...

Given that we know that there's been a real problem within various religious institutions, Catholic Church has had its own problems too. And I don't think... any religious institution where there's been a problem i don't think they've covered themselves with glory at all let's go to john in woodford hello john oh hello i want to say okay can i

speak without being cut off. I'm not going to be radical. Do you remember the twin towers when they came down? I mean, 3,000 people died. 3,000 people lost families and loved ones. That's not spoken about all the time. Why don't we just leave this alone so that that poor man who was crying earlier does not have to listen to this again? Why would this Justin, whatever his name is, brought back?

in to speak about this. Look, I'm not saying who cares. What we're saying is let them rest. You don't keep reminding somebody of the misery they went through because it's just being sad, you know, pissy. That man was crying because you brought it all up again. He said he was quite grateful that we'd brought it up. No, I don't believe that. How can he be grateful having to sit there crying on the telephone?

That Justin Welby should be ignored. He should be phoned out. He shouldn't at all be religious. I'm far more religious than he is, because obviously he let them get away with this sort of thing. And let's face it, he did. So why are we speaking about this again? Why can't we say people will suffer? Let me tell you. It is an uncomfortable subject to talk about, but I don't shy...

I didn't interrupt you, John. Let me have my say. I think if we don't talk about these things, and frankly, there are other subjects that I could have covered tonight. You're absolutely right. But if we don't talk about these things... They just get swept under the carpet and people think that there isn't a problem. We have to talk about them, identify the problem and try and urge those in positions of power, whether it's politicians, whether it's people at the head of religious institutions.

or companies or whatever to address the issue. And I think it is important that any media organisation talks about these issues because otherwise people often feel that they're the only ones that this has happened to. Clearly, they probably know that they're not the only ones. But when somebody like Ian phones in, when somebody like Julian phones in, other people who are listening that have maybe never talked about it to anyone, they've kept it to themselves all these years.

they realise that they're not alone, and I think that's really important. Well, we know they're not alone. Why keep on about it? Why does that man have to come on tonight? Well, I've just explained. No, you didn't explain. You are part of the media that wants to push this horrible story, and I understand. But for God's sake, we've got to let people rest in their minds.

and not remind them every day. I mean, if a child's naughty and you smack them, you don't say to them the next day, you were bad yesterday. Well, hang on a second. That is a reason. So we shouldn't ever cover abortion on the programme because that reminds women who've had abortions of their abortion. We shouldn't talk about all sorts of subjects using that logic.

That's a bad example, you know that. It's inconvenient to your argument, yeah. No, it isn't. It's because these people are suffering psychologically, and they are possibly, maybe, recovering from it if they're left alone. But why bring this man back in an interview with his, what's her name? What was that done for?

It's only raked everything up again. They don't want it raked up again. She's a journalist, and she got an exclusive interview that nobody else had got, so credit to her for that. Oh, here we go, media. He resigned as Archbishop of Canterbury, one of the leading positions in our country, and hasn't done an interview since he resigned. Of course he's going to... If Justin Welby had offered me the interview, of course I'd have taken it.

Well, it isn't a good idea. And by the way, John, nobody forces someone to phone in to LBC. It's not my idea of media. Media should be covering the terrible thing that's going on with the earthquakes. That is media. Which we do cover. Don't cover things that people have suffered because it only makes them suffer more. How many children do you want people to be abused? Well, hang on. If Ian or Julian thought that, they wouldn't have phoned in, would they?

Don't you find it because you're talking about it? We must leave these people alone to get over their misery. OK, well, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, John. Thank you very much indeed. Let's go to Harry in St Anne's in Lancashire. Harry, very good evening to you. Hi, good evening. Ian, thank you for taking my call. This is a tough listen. My heart goes out to Ian and Julian and the last caller.

He makes a slight point, but what he forgets is Justin Welby, if only he showed some humanity. I've not heard his... interview with Laura because I didn't want to because it brings things back for me. I'm of a different faith and this transcends. I've been abused very young and I was with my mum and there was a man who knew us in the grocery shop. My mum wanted some chicken and so that the guy who I got to know, I must have been 10, he said, right, just go to the back freezer larder.

himself a check-in. I've gone in. He's then come in after and he's put his hands between I didn't tell my mum at the time. But again, maybe five or six years later, I was on a training placement and I was struggling doing some... cabling and a man who's of a bigger build than me, he said, oh Harry, I'll show you how to do this. He put his arm around me to show me and... I could feel something behind me. And I just, again, I froze. And I knew that this is just not... This is...

When you said, Harry, that you didn't tell your mother, was that because you thought she wouldn't believe you? Well, no, I felt ashamed and I didn't know what to... It was because also my mum's been through domestic abuse. I lost her just recently and it's hard experience. I've seen her being abused by my dad and part of it, it's made me a staunch feminist all my life. The abuse has made me fear men.

producer and I'm not bothered talking about this on national radio I'm a virgin still and it's just I've found it so difficult made me think of is this is men and it's mainly men who abuse children but also what my heart goes out to. women is this um because of what i've seen what happened to my mom and what we what we know and we know the patriarchy of it's mainly men who abuse women

Do they abuse their positions of power, whether of faith or no faith? And what all Justin Welby had to do was show humanity. All he had to do was put his hands up and say, Yes. I'm sorry. Never mind. This is the thing. My heart goes out to Ian, Julian, and I mean...

I myself... Listen, Harry, my heart, and I think our listeners' hearts, goes out to you as well, because the three of you that have phoned in telling us your stories have been incredibly courageous, and I really want to thank you for it. Now, you can call the Rape and Sexual... abuse support line run by rape crisis england and wales on 0808 500 22 22 or use the online chat both are free and are open 24 hours a day every day of the year or the 24-hour free phone national domestic abuse helpline

run by Refuge on 0808 2000 247. And there's always the Samaritans on 116 123. Email joejo at samaritans.org or is it .org.uk, one or the other.