0116 - Is Loving Bipolar a Trauma Bond? - Bipolar Relationships

00:00 - Temple (Host)
All right, well, welcome everybody. Today we're talking about is loving bipolar a trauma bond? Is it inherently, organically, a trauma bond? So here's the question. Now there's a lot of things that we already know. Okay, let me just say this right now let's everybody take a breath, because we all know that we are in some type of emotional bondage with this situation. 

00:27
Okay, let's just be fair. We already know that symptomatic bipolar can be abusive on many levels mentally abusive, verbally abusive, physically abusive, psychologically abusive. So we already know that. That's no mystery. What does that mean for us? Why do we stay? That's the question where people say, well, why do you stay if you know you're in an abusive situation? 

00:52
Well, we have a lot of reasons why we stay, and each one of us has something that is independent for them as to why they stay with someone with an illness that feels abusive. And it's not just people with bipolar. There's people, couples, all over the world that stay in relationships that have abusive qualities. That people stay for various reasons. Because usually, in the simplest version for us is that we stay because the consequences of what it would look like to leave feel worse. That's the simplest form. So, in our case, in living with someone with bipolar, if they were highly symptomatic, maybe suicidal ideation has been said and we're exhausted. We want to leave. We're done with this, but the fear that that person could kill themselves is too much pain to swallow compared to. I'm going to stay in the facility of this person to make sure that they're okay, especially since the pandemic that it's been a very prominent scenario because we haven't had ways to get people help fast enough. There wasn't enough room in hospitals. People won't go, the police won't show up, crisis centers don't know how to coach on and on like that. Okay, we all have reasons why we stay in relationships that look threatening to other people. That's why we came to this group, so that all of us are going to go. Hey, we love you anyway. We love you anyway, but we want you to be safe. So is there anything that you can do to go to the next step of your recovery, to be more safe in your relationship? Whether you stay or whether you go is up to you, but your safety is your responsibility. We can't come and yank you out of your house. Your family can't do it, your friends can't do it. It's your decision if you can compromise yourself to stay in a situation that seems hurtful. Okay, there's that. 

02:57
Now let's go to the next level. What is a trauma bond? All right, it's a little bit different and we have to look at this on both sides. We're looking at what is a trauma bond from let's just pretend, neuro-normative couples, okay, that don't have a bipolar diagnosis. So here's some of the descriptions of what trauma bonding would look like if someone doesn't have bipolar. Let's not include bipolar right now, but I just want you to think about this, okay, because we're going to talk about the difference. 

03:30
Trauma bonding is the misuse of fear, excitement, sexual feelings or sexual physiology, like your bodily functions, you know, using your body parts to entangle or enmesh another person to you. So it's a strong emotional attachment between an abused person and their abuser, and it's formed as a result of the cycle of abuse. All right, and if you know about the cycle of abuse, there is a cycle that many of us go through when bipolar is cycling, and it starts with the anticipation of the pain, you know, the fight, the fallout. Then it escalates to the abuse action, which is the argument, or the verbal attack, or the chair flying across the room, the scare tactic, and then, through the abuse comes the reconcile, where you get the love bombing, the apologies, the promises that it'll never happen again, the plans on what they're going to do to change it, and then the next step is the calm. It's when everything has leveled out. 

04:51
Okay, you're not in anticipation. You're in that little love zone where the two of you had a big old fight. It was terrible, devastated. You scream, you cried and screamed. He screamed, he ran off, whatever it is. But you came back together, you reconciled. There was apologies and tears. All this cortisol comes pouring out of your body, all the cortisol that was built up from the anticipation of the cycle starting and then the adrenaline that came into the body during the abuse cycle. And then all of that's released during the reconcile part where you're cuddling and kissing and maybe you're having makeup sex, and then you're getting all those neurotransmitters back into your body, the serotonin and the oxytocin and your hormones level out and now you're in the calm zone. Okay. 

05:45
And then when you're in the reconcile is when we kind of forget and we justify the incident, kind of like giving birth. I mean, I haven't given birth but from what I've seen and been told, it's an extremely painful situation to experience for a lot of people, not for everyone. Some people just drop them like hotcakes. But you know, you watch on TV and it looks extremely painful and then, when their body recovers, you get all your energy back, your hormones level out and you're in the calm and you're bonding with that baby and you're getting all that oxytocin from holding that baby. You forget that you just put yourself through 15 hours of the worst kind of pain you could imagine. Okay, I'm going to take a breath right there and see if one of the moderators what are you thinking right now? So far, how do you feel about this description? Do you believe that there have been periods in your relationship that could qualify as a trauma bonding? 

06:48 - Dani (Co-host)
well, I think that definitely in the beginning you get that love bomb. Of course these guys are like amazing and they love us so much, so of course there's just like an attraction that's like no other right. And then you start seeing also some pretty crazy shit too right, when they get mad, it's whoa, is that necessary? Is that absolutely necessary? But you just keep moving through it, like you say navigate to the right, left, which way should I go? But then you learn that you can't do that anymore Because it's like if I just give into every single one of these things, for mine it was like he was very particular about how he wanted the house cleaned, how he wanted his laundry done, how he wanted the towels folded how he wanted. 

07:43
You know, every single little thing was like you know, you cut carrots this way. And I started just conforming to that and like, oh, he likes the house done like this, he likes the towels folded like this. Okay, the towels, yes, they look good like that. Okay, cool, I'll do that. But if you're going to nitpick every single little thing that I do, I'm going to feel crazy, because I know how to do shit on my own and I feel like, if you want to do it a certain way, maybe you should do it yourself. 

08:10
So there's that like kickback part where I feel like we have, we have this like whoa, I need to draw this boundary. 

08:16
This red flag goes up in my brain Like, in order for me to feel good right now, I have to draw this boundary and I feel like, with the trauma bonding, it's where you lose that. 

08:27
You lose that lack to create your boundaries. So for me, in our relationship it's like, yes, okay, we have these extreme things because we have these bipolar, you know, you're, you're way up, your way down, but at the same time we're constantly moving forward. Yeah, we might take a pause or do a half step back, but we're constantly moving forward. Yeah, we might take a pause or do a half step back, but we're constantly moving forward. So it's the abuse part where you gradually get a distorted perception of reality because your mind is cloudy and they're gaslighting you and verbally abusing you and controlling everything, and then you're slowly like destructing or, you know, tearing down your self-esteem and then like losing your boundaries, losing yourself, like that part is, for me, the part where I like have to get up and be like no, we gotta shift, we gotta pivot forward. That's kind of how I feel about it. 

09:20 - Temple (Host)
Oh, yes, no, that's good feedback. I really appreciate that. I like what you said about when you feel like your foundational, your set piece of how you feel about yourself, starts getting compromised, you can feel like that might be your, that's your big red flag, right Like, oh, and I really relate to that because I am somebody that worked in a women's clothing store, managed a women's clothing store most of my life, and they were all size women from zero to 32. Self-esteem and self-image was a major part of serving the public to me Was that every woman that came in felt beautiful, no matter what size she was, no matter what shape she was felt beautiful no matter what size she was, no matter what shape she was. And, believe me, it doesn't matter what, how skinny or full figured you are. 

10:13
Everybody has insecurities about themselves. So for me, I always felt like we had to tell ourselves that we are good. We have to do it as women that work against a lot of cultural judgment to be beautiful, that we have to be okay with ourselves. You still have to be smart and funny and interesting, not just beautiful. And also, if you want to be beautiful aesthetically great, do that as well, but your self-esteem comes from exactly that yourself, your inner self. So when somebody with a mental illness that is telling you you're not good because of this or this or this, you, you, you, you, you, you, you. That's gaslighting You're the problem, you're to this, you're to that, you start hurting my self esteem. So I appreciate that reflection. 

11:06 - Dani (Co-host)
Definitely yeah, and I think that's just the difference between, like, the cycle of abuse and like the, where I you know we put our foot down and say, like I am not going to continue if you keep doing this. You know, like no, you cannot be staying out all night. Like I will leave you, like that is where it's like look, if you're going to break this boundary, that that's where I have to decide, like if I'm going to leave you or not. But I have to know that for myself. I can't just keep getting like in a deep depression because of this 100% Okay. 

11:36 - Temple (Host)
so let me talk about something else, because I think this will help. Sam and I were talking a little bit about this, that that trauma bonding has a negative tone right, I just totally vibe with Dani, I think on every level, imaginatively. 

11:52 - Sam (Guest)
I just love her energy and like it's just so funny because I totally vibed with everything she just said. And yes, I do believe that that word has a strong negative connotation. But I also really love like the way you just explained that, because my husband's also the same way crazy about the way the dishes are done or the way the towels are folded, like I felt that so hard. But also now I notice, now that my husband has been in recovery the past year, that certain things don't bother him. That used to bother him when he was symptomatic. 

12:26
Yes, so what you're saying is that the progress is creating the healing right Absolutely, and I think what Dani said is spot on that it's a little bit different than your standard abusive relationship when bipolar is not involved. You know our partners don't choose this. They don't wake up one day and say I want to have a chemical imbalance in my brain. It just is, and I think we as wives are put in a difficult position where we have to navigate things that are not normally having to be navigated in neuro-normative relationships. So I love how Danny said that, though, and it definitely when you're out of that cycle the boundary setting is so much easier. 

13:11 - Temple (Host)
Yes, yes, good point, Sam. And that that's when you're supposed to have those conversations, right, because we've had a lot of crisis calls I mean we meaning me, where y'all will call and the breakdown is happening. But what usually happens is I get a call the next day and the breakthrough has happened. So it's. It's still similar to the cycle of abuse, right, the anticipation. I know it's coming, I can feel mania, we can smell it. I it a mile away, coming around the corner. He's ramping up. I'm trying to keep things cool, I'm starting to walk on eggshells. He's irritated, getting frustrated, right? 

13:58
Do you listen to the breakdown that Julie Fath did at the Bipolar Support Club around this, the cycle of abuse being the manic cycle of irritation going to frustration, going to anger, going to aggression, going to violence. And violence means a lot of things. And talking about the escalation of violence and what violence is Violence? And she challenged Monty about this, who's just the sweetest guy ever, and I know he was like, oh, I don't want to say that I've done anything, but he said he threw a chair while he was in mania and she said Well, do you consider that violence? And he said no, because nobody got hurt. You know I didn't go to jail, the police didn't come, and so what was anybody watching? Well, yes, there was one person that that saw me do that. Okay. 

14:49
Well, if that was a loved one, what was the message? That there is an abrupt eruption of a violent what would we call it incident that can happen during mania, right? So there's the message, right there. So what we try to categorize as nonviolent, really we need to take a second look at that. Is yelling at someone violent? Yes, does it feel violent when somebody's screaming in your face, calling you all those words? You know what those words are. Does it feel violent when someone is driving recklessly while they're manic and they won't pull the car over? Does it feel violent when somebody throws something across the room their coffee cup? Yeah, violence doesn't just mean you get punched, okay. Violence doesn't just mean you get punched, okay. So we need to think about this. 

15:40
What trauma bonding is being created in our home that we're not qualifying properly? All right, no shame. Look, I'm it. I'm an abused wife. Okay, I've said it. I've been counseling my entire life. I was an abused kid who became an abused young woman, who became an abused adult woman, who married somebody with bipolar. Okay, I'm not going to get any judgment from me. I know how to take abuse. That's why I keep showing up for abuse. But guess what? I'm on to myself. I know myself better. All the years of school and counseling and spiritual training and all the self-reflection that I've done over the last 30 years is conditioned me to learn, to want to feel better, and I keep moving my boundary line. So, like Danny said, we pivot and we grow, and I'm looking at the things that qualify trauma bonding. 

16:36
All right, so let's play the game. Claire, will you play this game with me? We're going to play. Are you trauma bonded? Unmute your mic if you can play with me. Yeah, I'm here. All right, claire, so this is for you. No, no, don't be shy. No, holding back. Okay, we're just going to do real deal, real time. Okay, all right. All right, here it is. I want to ask you a question about your relationship with your bipolar partner. Have you ever felt stuck and have not seen any way out of the relationship or situation? Yes, okay, that's a one, that's okay. You don't have to explain right now. We're just going to do numbers and then we'll go back. Okay, okay, with your bipolar spouse. Have you ever walked on eggshells and been afraid that they are going to overreact over a normal issue? Yes Three the person, your person, is doing things that are hurtful to you, but you're afraid that they will hurt themselves if you leave them. Has that ever happened? 

17:46 - Claire (Guest)
Yeah. 

17:47 - Temple (Host)
Okay, so far, you are winning, claire. All right, number four people are telling you to leave your spouse. Oh yeah, yes, okay, so that's four. All right, we have three more to go. So far, you are in the lead, claire. Okay, number five when you try to leave, you feel an intense longing for that person and it draws you right back to them. 

18:14 - Claire (Guest)
My goodness. 

18:16 - Temple (Host)
Yes, ooh, that's a yes, okay. Number six do you get punished when you do something that they've considered was wrong, like, do they ignore you or blast you with words or some type of punishment for something that you didn't consider punish worthy? Yep, right out the door. Right out the door, okay, all right. Last one You're doing so great, claire. People around you are very upset at the things that are happening, but you don't think it's as big of a deal as they do. 

18:52 - Claire (Guest)
That's tricky. I'm going to say no, because can I say why? Or you want me to wait? 

19:01 - Temple (Host)
Let's just say no right now. No, okay, we're going to go back. Okay, so all right. So that's a six out of seven qualifying what would qualify for a trauma bonding relationship due to emotional bondage. All right, that kind of feels yucky to hear that, I'm sure, claire, but not surprised. Nobody's shocked, because we already know you've been through that, right, yeah, and this is about recovery anyway. So we can't get there from there, we have to get there from here. So here's where we are Now. Since you have had those experiences, are you aware that you have an emotional, physiological attachment to this person that keeps you coming back in, even when it feels risky? Oh, yeah, definitely Okay, what do you think? Go ahead Now, speak freely Now. You said people are very upset about things that are happening, but you don't think it's as big of a deal. What are your qualifiers around? What you think is not as big of a deal as other people? 

20:13 - Claire (Guest)
I mean, I think for me it's it's. I think that's the wrong way to say things like, wrong way to phrase it, saying it's not a big of a deal. I know it's a big deal. It's just the fact that now I know that, like, my partner is bipolar and I'm learning how to navigate that and I want to be with whoever he is when he's not manic and depressed somewhere in there. You know, I want to be with whoever he is when he's not manic and depressed somewhere in there. I want to be with my person. So I think I understand that it can be scary for other people, but they're not the person living my life either. Gotcha and the qualifiers I mean obviously physical abuse is really bad. 

20:57
I was definitely physically abused and he's still not living in the house yet we're working on that but he did have to leave and he's got to pay for a batterer's intervention course. There's things you got to do to come back, but no, abuse is not condoned. People are saying, well's still in your life, so you're condoning it. Well, no, there's consequences. But for me it's not like I'm. I don't know what level it will take to just like be completely done, I guess. But here's the consequences of your actions, like there are consequences for what he did do. 

21:34 - Temple (Host)
That makes sense okay, so I hear what you're saying. What? What I would probably put the highlight back on is to clarify for yourself what would be the qualifier, what is your final boundary? How do you empower yourself to not stay in the cycle of views? And and you, because I know how smart and intuitive you are, that you are onto yourself and you know your history, you know, you know, you know your own history. 

22:04
You know your own mental diagnoses. You've got lots of things to challenge you, as is without a husband. So you add a stick husband in there and you've got quite the project on your hand for the rest of your life. But if you do what Danny was saying and that you continue to step it out and navigate and pivot, then we don't know what the future holds for for you and your hubs. But as long as you are stuck, that's where people, that's where the sickness is is when we're really, really stuck. 

22:40
Okay, and I can tell you that I definitely have felt stuck, that I had no idea how I was going to get out of this with a spouse that was rapid cycling psychosis every day for months and months and months and nobody wanted to come over and help me. Why would they? And what could I do? I couldn't put him out on the street. He would surely be, you know, beaten up or killed or something like that would happen. I couldn't get him to the hospital. You know, stuck is not even the word Like petrified, paralyzed is the way I felt and that did create a trauma bond with my husband and I, because when he came out of that cycle, even a little bit. Just seeing my person come through gave me so much relief, all that cortisol and adrenaline repair that had to happen. I couldn't even have a conversation about next steps because I was just so fricking happy to see him in his whole self again that all I wanted to do was lay on the couch and hold each other right. That's why we're talking about this. We have to be aware, we have to be onto ourselves. 

23:48
And when I realized that I was part of the abusive cycle because I was used to that from a parent that would hit first, forget about it. We all had to recover without any conversation, without any, you know, justifying for punishment. I had to learn to self regulate, self correct, self nurture. That's a lot of selves in there. That's too many selves. When you're in a relationship, we have to be able to rely on our partners to also be part of the nurturing in the relationship. And if you find that you're having to do all the nurturing to yourself to recover, that's a red flag. Okay, you might be trauma bonded to that person. If you're waiting for the cycle of abuse to come around to the love bombing and that's the only time you feel good is when they're love bombing you and you don't feel good any other time. Claire, does that help you give? Does that give you some like strength and clarity to be onto? 

24:46 - Claire (Guest)
yourself? Oh, definitely. And for a second I was almost like, why are you calling me out about the like love bombing? But no, shame, right? No, no, it was, you know, just kind of like a laughing at myself moment, because you know, there, there's part of you that I have those moments that I love that we're talking about this topic tonight, because I've asked myself so many times, like checking myself and making sure, like, are you just playing out your generational trauma? Are you just playing out everything you've experienced in your life before? Did you really pick your mom? Because it turns out my mom was bipolar and she was undiagnosed, but she talked about it sometimes and then my sister confirmed it once. I talked to her about DES and she's, like, you know, no-transcript, instead of, well, not moving into a victim place and being like, well, I have to stay with this person, or I have to deal with these things, or woe is me, this is my life, which not me. 

26:18 - Temple (Host)
Yes, okay, I'm so proud of you. Okay, all right, thank you, claire. We love you. Thank you for your transparency. Please continue to come back. Believe me, your story affects everyone here and we really do need to hear the stories of recovery and the stories of awakening Right, and that is you. So I love you. 

26:44 - Claire (Guest)
Love you. Thank you so much, temple, you're welcome. 

26:52 - Temple (Host)
All right, let's take a breath for a second and then, janice, if you're going to be ready to speak, I'm going to ask you to unmute. Janice, are you there? Yes, hi, yes, can you hear me? I? 

27:01 - Janice (Guest)
can. Hi, girl, hi. So this is all interesting to me, the trauma bonding is aspect, because you know, I left in December and on Sunday we had a three hour text battle. And he's up and down. First he's raging at me, telling me we're at war, telling me he spent $50,000 on a retainer for his new lawyer, who I know is very expensive retainer for his new lawyer, who I know is very expensive. 

27:25
Then he starts going on about how he's tormented and every time he sees pictures of us or hears our song it's very painful. And then he tells me I should be sleeping where he's sleeping and that we should make a date of it. And then he's back to getting angry. And then he's back to accusing me of abusing him and then telling me I'm bipolar and that I've got borderline and I feel sucked in all the time. And I think it is the trauma bonding to an extent, because the next day he offered to take my children and I to do a fireworks display for a national holiday here in Canada and then, guess what, he doesn't even look at me or speak to me. He acts like I'm invisible for two hours and I don't know why I get sucked in all the time. 

28:08
I did have a two-hour session with Julie fast today because you know I've taken a course with her, yeah, and and she you know I had. I had written John's brain health timeline according to her specifications. So I gave her a 52-page document and we went through it today. 

28:28 - Temple (Host)
Anyway, as Janice is a reporter, by the way, so she's in the details. That's where her power is, in the details. Yeah, I can appreciate that you gave her a 52 page. Yeah, I know it was lengthy. 

28:36 - Janice (Guest)
I know it was lengthy we got 30 pages because I had to go pick up the kids. I couldn't go through the whole thing, but I mean, yeah, it was. We got to the point where he became really dysphoric and when I noticed the bipolar I didn't notice it the first 16 years of our relationship actually longer than that, but anyway, like the first 25 years she told me that he's been bipolar and he was hypomanic. The second we started dating and she identified nine hypomanic episodes before his first major episode, which was startling to me. However, when you go through a brain health time like that with Julie I mean what she pointed out Danny and whoever else, if your husband's ever struck you, she will never say you should stay. She told me expressly done, because she said there are tendencies and bipolar just intensifies these tendencies to be controlling or suspicious or unepithetic, etc. But she just said how could you even consider going back to someone that's abusive? And this is for someone who has the same diagnosis as my husband, which you know she believes to be schizoaffective. 

29:41 - Temple (Host)
Right, and what do you feel about that? When she asked you that question. 

30:18 - Janice (Guest)
And what do you feel about that? When his, of John's behaviors, all of these tendencies were already there, they were already there, he was already controlling. You know, I always said he was so loving, but she said it's when he felt like it on his agenda, not when you really asked him to be empathetic or when you asked him to consider working less, to spend more time with you and the children, because his needs came first. And so how much of that is at play in all of these relationships, these bipolar relationships? I'd like to know, because you know, in mania obviously there's tendencies toward narcissism and abusiveness, and I guess we all have to ask ourselves because even if medicated, it's not all going to go away. It's just an intensification of traits they already have. It's just something I thought I'd bring up because I thought that really struck me, you know, and I just thought I'd put it out there. 

31:11 - Temple (Host)
And I appreciate that you, I really appreciate that you are saying that, janice, because here's the situation in a peer support situation, okay Now, compared to a one-on-one with with Julie, she was able to really direct you and say don't go back Pretty much yeah. 

31:30 - Janice (Guest)
That's yeah. She said why would you ever consider it? She said it's completely unacceptable to be with somebody who's treated me that way, right, and she says because it's not just bipolar, it's been there all along and even if he's medicated and treated, there's no magic potion that will make him not be somewhat like this, because it's who he is on some level right, and I had even mentioned her. Well, he hadn't struck me since april 2020 and she said can you even hear yourself? Yeah, so what? Two years? Here's a bit you and right. So I don't know okay. 

32:00 - Temple (Host)
So that's why we're talking about this. That's why we're talking about this. The, the trauma bond, can be blinding because of the physiological response or psychological response that we have to the upswing, to the loving part, the calm part that you do have and I hear this quite a bit. Listen, I feel everybody getting triggered right now. So, take a breath. Okay, take a breath Because, listen, we've all not all, but many of us have been in very compromising situations with our spouses that other people have said do not tolerate that, you have to leave. But did we leave? No, we did not. Do you have any other people in your life girlfriends that have been treated like shit and you have said get away from that guy, dump his ass. And she did not go and she turned around and held on even tighter. That's why, in this room, we don't speak absolutes. It is about you discovering what it is for you to be healthy and if you need to be in this situation right now, if the consequence of leaving is too painful than staying, you're going to stay and there isn't anything I can say to you to make you leave. I wish I could pick all of us up by the scruff of our necks and put us down into a beautiful, healthy relationship where all of our partners are so balanced and nurturing and supportive and they do their own laundry and they pay the bills. And I wish, but that's not what we've chosen. We've chosen this and we're going to choose this until we don't. So we're so thankful that Janice made the choice to leave. 

33:41
When she did, we all felt that her life was in jeopardy, and I believe that God is in this with her 100%, and so we stayed with her, held her in love. She kept educating herself. She's a smart woman, she's not stupid. What am I going to say? Oh, you should leave. She never thought of that one right? Okay, she knows. 

33:58
But there is an emotional, mental, physiological response that happens. There is a spiritual dynamic that is very powerful, that keeps us in situations and that is between you and you. So this is about your evolution, so that you can be on to yourself when you see that you're being gaslit. You can be on to yourself when you see that you are trauma bonding. And you can be on to yourself when you see that you are trauma bonding and you can be on to yourself when you say well, it's been years since I've been hit. What the hell am I saying? Okay, you get to make the choice and I'm just so grateful that Janice made the choice to be safe, got her kids safe. She's continuing to recover and she's unbonding that trauma out of her body every single day. Thank you, janice, for sharing that. We love you very much. 

34:45 - Bridget (Co-host)
Thank you. 

34:46 - Temple (Host)
Yeah. 

34:50 - Janice (Guest)
Love you, Janice. Thanks, ladies. 

34:52 - Temple (Host)
All right, okay, we're going to go to Annabelle. Are you there, annabelle? I am, can you guys hear me? Yes, okay, so are you willing to play a little bit of uh, let's play trauma bond? Are you in? Yeah, okay, all right, so are you, and we'll let this be at any time. 

35:15
It doesn't have to be current, okay. So, if ever, uh, have you ever felt stuck and saw no way out of your relationship? Absolutely. Uh, have you walked on eggshells and were afraid that your partner would abnormally react to normal issues? Very often, okay, so that one's a current. You know what would help Tell me if it's past or if it's present. Okay, so that one was past. This one is often present. 

35:45
The number one is in the past. You have felt stuck and hadn't seen any way out. Currently, you walk on eggshells and are worried about an unnormal reaction. That's more current. Yes, okay, the person is doing things that are hurtful to you, but you're afraid they will hurt themselves if you leave In the past. In the past, okay, people are telling you to leave In the past. Okay, and when you try to leave, you feel an intense longing for that person and it draws you back in. Yep, in the past. That's in the past. Okay, you back in, yep, in the past. That's in the past. 

36:25
Okay, you get punished when you do something that they consider wrong in some form of behavioral way in the past. In the past, I don't allow that anymore, no way, okay, look at you, grow, grow, grow, grow, okay. And then, finally, people around you are very upset at the things happening, but you don't think it's a big deal. No, I'm pretty self-aware. So, no, that one doesn't quite match up, okay, All right. Well, look at that. So out of seven, only one is current. Yeah, that's amazing progress, right, I know I Feel blessed every day, for sure. So, and you have been my client, so I, I have got to watch your journey and saw the things that you were feeling at those times, that you felt like you were stuck in and no way out. And so what do you attribute to being able to pivot? And I feel like you have choices. 

37:28 - Sam (Guest)
Yeah, so it. It wasn't a straight line, that's for sure, sticking to my boundaries. 

37:36 - Temple (Host)
It all started with me doing therapy and learning what gaslighting was, how to set boundaries. Gaslighting was how to set boundaries, things like that, and that was the first baby step. Then from there I could kind of stop those in its tracks but then also say, hey, we need to be sober if we're going to be together. So that's been my boundary and something we've been working on, and he's been sober for almost a year and a half now, so that's exciting. So proud. 

38:11
Of course that's relapse after relapse, but yeah, I mean being sober and then really getting him on a medication that makes sense, for bipolar was a game changer and yeah, it just God knew I had to take baby steps or he had to take baby steps. I wanted it done in five minutes but yeah, we made it, yep. So I think we all start out trauma bonded. I wanted to say that Like yeah. 

38:35
I think we, we all end up in this spot because of kind of where we were before with our childhood trauma, and then we get to choose if we want to work on it, and I think we all are here. It's awesome to see. It's a good reminder. It's a really good reminder. I'm so proud of you, annabelle, and I'm really really happy that you and your husband are finding your way too, and relapse is part of recovery. You know, we know that as well. 

39:01
Yeah, I think that we all have to remember that medication is not a cure for bipolar. It's certainly not a cure for addiction. So relapse is part of the recovery process. It is going to happen. Symptoms are going to break through, better that you know it. Then live in la la land and pretend like it's not going to happen, and then it smacks you in the face. So remember, don't trust bipolar. Trust yourself, okay, trust that you know how to set a boundary, how to walk away, how to not engage, how to not take a gaslight Like. Those are all tools you had to learn, right, annabelle? Yeah, I wanted to just mention there was a book I read and I'm going to bring it next week, but it was about psychiatrists that worked with abusive men when they were in jail. 

39:49
Does that ring a bell to anybody? And he did kind of a study and observation over the years of these men to see if it was just inherent that they were abusive, and this isn't bipolar specific right, but just abuse in general, and he would sometimes see that it slipped like they. 

40:09
They are choosing to be abusive and that's part of their facade. It was a really cool book tough to read, but it was a great learning experience when I needed it so well. I'm wondering if it's the same there's the same category of why does he do that as a book that I've recommended for? 

40:29 - Bridget (Co-host)
similar. 

40:29 - Temple (Host)
And it's yeah, yeah where they're okay, so there was only right, and there was only one section around mental illness, right, and it wasn't very clarifying, right, you know, are we to excuse it or not? It didn't really come up. So it we're still in a challengingifying as to, you know, are we to excuse it or not? It didn't really come up. So it we're still in a challenging situation as to how much are they accountable for things when they truly are in psychosis. Right, absolutely, absolutely. It's still a challenge. 

41:00
I think it might come back to maybe why we stay. Right, there could be, there's hope that they can recover and then, if they're in recovery, then they can choose not to be abusive and that's been my, my experience with my spouse. So I think that's powerful because most people, just like you, felt, janice, oh, you need to leave right away. That's been the abuse. Well, I get that. But at the same time, I've seen that if someone chooses recovery, that they that can go away. Got you Absolutely. Well, I, that's more than two cents, that's a whole dollar at least, absolutely, absolutely. We love you, annabelleelle, and we really congratulate you on your self-recovery and your consistency. To, you know, keep god in the picture for you. Listen, this is a spirited group. We don't tell you how you're supposed to believe, but whatever your resonance is, if it's nature, if it's universe, if it's spirit, if it's God, if it's Buddha, whatever you use as your source of light and love, I encourage you to keep building that part of yourself, because that's where the bigness of us is, the strength when we're in the smallness. That's where that can move things for us when we look to something else besides the pain. Yeah, thanks for sharing the pain. Yeah, thanks for sharing. 

42:49
I wanted to do a little just recon right here, because we have some of our bipolar loved ones in the room and it's hard. It's hard to have to show up and hear these conversations, because they might be the ones that did throw the thing and said the words. And we appreciate anyone with bipolar that does show up into this space and has the strength to listen and be aware of what's happening in your home due to an illness. And that's where the choices come in that Annabelle was talking about. It's when you are on the other side of the cycle, when you're in the calm zone. That's when you can make new choices by putting safety plans in place, by getting a power of attorney, making sure your spouse has a power of attorney to get you to the hospital when you are in psychosis. By making sure that you understand your triggers and that you and your partner know what triggers look like when you're escalating from irritation to frustration to anger, to aggression, how to disengage, to teach your partner how to disengage with you. 

43:51
My husband will say it. He says it now. He still has manic cycles regularly and he's fully med compliant and he'll say you know, I'm bipolar and I go. Well, there it is, thank you, thank you, babe. He's throwing me the warning signal like save yourself, you know, go. 

44:16
When he says something out of symptoms and I start reacting like a wife, then we have a problem because I'm going to defend myself and I'm going to tell him why he has no right to say those things. But what he's trying to tell me is I'm going to defend myself and I'm going to tell him why he has no right to say those things. But what he's trying to tell me is I'm not trying to say these things to you, I can't stop my stupid mouth. Can you please go away so I can put myself in a timeout? And he'll just say that you know, I'm bipolar, I just want to stop this. So I'm grateful to him that he's become self-aware to that degree even though he lives with daily psychosis that sometimes he's able to know, man, this is too much for her. Come on, go temple, save yourself, get up out of here. Let's not talk about it. And then when we do come back to talking, we'll try the talking stick method, which works really well for somebody that has cognitive trauma to the brain where it's hard for him to follow along with the conversation. So if any of your spouses have had rapid cycles and lots of psychosis, their cognition is greatly compromised and Julie Faust will tell you that we want to make sure that they understand what we're saying. 

45:25
It's not five paragraphs of information in one breath, all right, it has to be to the point. The point is, I don't want mania in my house. That's what I tell my husband. So he goes to the garage and he waits and he works it out and we do other things and we take a break and we get him a smoothie and I ask him if he needs an extra depo coat, and you know. 

45:49
But I don't want mania in my house anymore. I'm not going to live with mania because it's abused me. It's trauma bonded me, it's traumatized me and my body has suffered for it. I get to make a choice and he gets to make a choice. If he's going to continue to live with mania, then he better do it in a way that I can handle it and he's doing the best he can. But I was that person, annabelle, like all those things that we just went through, feeling stuck, walking on eggshells. That person is hurting me. 

46:21
People are telling me you know, all of that was true, it definitely was trauma bonded, but it is in the past for me. Now, because I have empowered myself to make a change, I will do something different. If it's too much for me to not have the life that is fulfilling for me anymore, if I can't figure out a way to stay creatively engaged in this relationship, I can get my husband assisted living. Okay, that hasn't been an option before, but it is now. So I do have choices. The problem is, when you don't have any choices that that seem attainable is when we truly get trauma bonded, talking to everybody and digging in and making phone calls and insisting on advocates and pushing, and pushing, and, pushing and pushing until I found out that we could get a caregiver, that he could get assisted living, that he could. You know I could get a power of attorney, like all these resources that nobody told me about helped me to unbond my trauma bond by giving me choices, and now he gets to decide. Is he willing to let me have those and if he doesn't, then we have a new conversation, right? If you don't want to follow along with my rule that I don't live with mania, then we'll live separately and I'll be your advocate. That is my new choice out of being a trauma bond. 

47:43
So yay for Temple for growing up. Let's give her a yay on. So yay for Temple for growing up. Let's give her a yay. And mostly I get to grow up by sharing my experience with all of you. That's the difference between being a coach and a counselor, even though I do have lots of college education around mental health and addiction, my joy is to coach because that is from an experiential place and we can work on something. Stepping in out, scripting it out. Pre-crisis intervention is what you get with me Crisis response, which is different than the crisis hotline, because they're not going to tell you to make a smoothie and I will make sure that you make a smoothie and I will help you get grounded and I will help you clear your energies and I will help you clear the space in your room when you have mania in your house. 

48:37
Okay, so that's what I do, and my website is templesworldorg. There is support packages there. I got a gazillion tools for you and I want to share them. Okay, I do have to charge money for that, but it's okay. You're worth it. Your family is worth it. So please look at my packages and let me know when you're ready to take the next step of the all encompassing support that I have available for you. 

49:04
Oh, sam, I want to say something because I wanted to differentiate where we said trauma bonding has a negative connotation. I wanted to. I want you to think about this. There is a difference between a trauma bond and a connection formed out of a painful situation. Painful situation, okay, the difference being, let's say, you're married and your partner's brother, sibling has a major car accident and dies unexpectedly. Now, this is an unforeseen traumatic event that happens and you become somebody that is supporting them through grief and recovery. You make an appointment to a counselor for them, you go to the funeral and you hold them up while they're sobbing. You become a nurturing, strong place for that traumatic event and because of that event, as time passes, you realize that the two of you have a deeper, stronger bond, because you've realized what you can get through together when life throws you very traumatic events, because life is full of traumatic events. Okay, that is the difference. That's not trauma bonding. Can you understand what I'm saying there? 

50:27
Okay, definitely that's not trauma bonding can you? 

50:28
understand what I'm saying there. Okay, definitely, we go through traumatic events that can bring us closer all the time because it forces us to level up on how we're going to be nurturing compassionate, kind it's. It comes from the outside in, but when it's in the house, when the call is coming from in the house, that that's when it's a trauma bond. When it's your marriage, your relationship that is keeping you entangled and enmeshed because of the actions that are happening between the two of you, then you might be trauma bonded. All right, we're going to leave it on that note. Bridget, I just want to give you a chance. We didn't hear from you today to unmic. Was there any closing words or you want to tell me how did I do today on the trauma bond topic? 

51:13 - Bridget (Co-host)
I thought this was so great and I just thought that everyone who spoke was so eloquent and you said everything that I've been thinking and helped me process and think through different situations that I've had in my own relationship and my own growth. So I'm just always appreciate this group and you know all that we do to support each other and just want to give a little plug for Temple and her coaching. She's helped me a lot and those practical tools really, you know, when you have them in your back pocket, when something's coming at you fast, it's really nice to feel like you know I have something that I can use to respond. That's going to be constructive in this situation. So just a little plug for Temple, but thank you everyone. 

51:59 - Temple (Host)
Yes, thank you, bridget. We love you so much. Thank you for the plug, so we're going to go ahead and close this out, all right. So I just want to send a blessing to everyone and let you know that we have a lot of things on the horizon here. So keep connected. Let's all keep connected, because don't we feel stronger when we're together? 

52:18
When you leave, do you feel like you've had a moment of empowerment? I hope that you do, because I definitely do. So. Keep your mind focused on the recovery part. Don't let a step back turn you into mush. Pull yourself back up and think about what is the next two steps I can do Always keep your eyes moving forward. 

52:39
So I just ask that God bless this group, knowing that we are a group of very individuals, very special individuals that love what can look like the unlovable, that can understand what could look like the un-understandable that's a new word. I want us to be blessed by all the efforts that we have put out to keep our loved ones safe. I ask that God turn around and bless you with a surprise, with a treat, with something loving and fresh in your life that gives you just that extra boost to remind you that you are protected and that you are special and you get to have love and enjoyment in this world, despite what you're seeing with your visible eye. All right, so we're going to close this out. We'll see you next week, love you.