John Wooden, the winningest NCAA basketball coach in history. He has this quote, do not mistake activity for achievement. This is what is happening with dating. You know, you're getting these likes or you're swiping and you're like, oh, I'm doing something to find my person. I'm something about my dating life. But if you really want a relationship, you have got to work on yourself first.
Until you can get to that place of feeling good in your own center, about dating, please do yourself a favor and don't go on the apps. Hi guys, this is I Hate Dating Apps, I'm Daniel. And I am Gina. Well, Gina, today we have a special treat for our viewers and our listeners. I'm super excited. You know, there's this term called, uh, statistically significant sample size. Okay. Now I would say 5,000 is a pretty big number. And our special guest today has helped 5,00 people make matches.
And then there's some 1500 dates after that. So if anybody's going to know anything about matchmaking, I think it's our guests. and you're going to introduce her? Yes. And of course I'm super excited because matchmaking is something that I've considered, but I typically can't afford it.
So I was excited particularly because you were on an app where you saw so many single people and it was your job to not only find out who they would be a good match for, but then also to set them up on their dates and see how that went. And we can't the app, but we are joined by Carolyn Horry, who is now an everything coach, an architect of life or archeologist of life. She coaches people on business relationships on every aspect of their lives. And we're excited to have you.
Thank you, thank you guys so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here and have this conversation with you and your listeners. And I love what you guys are sharing out there. And I think it's really valuable at this point in time specifically. So you were kind of a matchmaker to higher net worth individuals. And you went through 5,000 people approximately in an effort to see who would be a good match for whom. And then you oversaw 1,500 dates transpire.
And during that time, you came up with some very interesting thoughts about dating apps, the dating process and modern love in general. And I wanna hear all of it. I don't even know where to start. Can you just kind of like start with your top observations? So the first thing I want to share is that our company, our matchmaking service is not actually an app. So nobody could actually search the app. So that's one distinction that's really important because everything was behind the scenes.
So a lot of our clients came to us because they wanted that privacy and security. They couldn't be out on Tinder or Hinge or Bumble because they're a bank CEO or they're a celebrity or they are a famous author. And so it wasn't actually an App. It was basically a matchmaking service. that I was one of the matchmakers and then we would interview on Zoom most of the potential dates for our clients. Uh-huh.
And then we, as the matchmaker, would also oversee and set up the actual date and then, as Gina mentioned, follow up to see how the date went and review date feedback, which is also a very unique part of our service, was that we received date feedback from both parties. And then, we were the ones that would share that with our clients. Mhm. So, I mean, there's just so many things that happened. It was this over a three year period that I talked to 5,000 people and set up basically 1,500 dates.
dates. How did you end up a matchmaker? That's right. Yeah. That's such a great question because I am the archeologist of the soul. I have a background in commercial real estate. That's what I did for 25 years. And when I quit my big, quote unquote, big job, it was to find more purpose in my life because I was really tired of making money for really rich people. And I had no intention of becoming a
matchmaker. At that time, I was already a coach, the pandemic happened, and I really was starting to study intuition. And so that's one of kind of my zone of genius is my greatest gifts. And I was like, well, how am I gonna study intuition and how am really gonna get deep on understanding how to talk to people, how to read energy. And so I literally saw an ad on LinkedIn. I was, like, I have no idea what this company is. I have idea what the matchmaking
is. I pushed the button and I knew intuitively that this is what I was supposed to do. So I pushed a button. they had these videos that you had to fill out on like their little camera and submit the videos. I knew I was going to get the job. I had no idea why I was, I was like, what am I doing? And when I got the job and when I saw the founder on zoom, I was so impressed with him and what he was doing because the big thing is this was a blind matchmaking service.
And so I was Like, you know what? This is really unique because we're kind of taking out the visual part, which is one of the big things that I think is hindering people on the apps, is you're just seeing the photo and you're swiping left or right. Which you guys. Yeah, make a knee-jerk reaction. Exactly, which you guys have talked about a lot, and it's true. So I was really impressed with what he was really trying to do and how he was trying to change the game of dating psychologically.
And so as I got more involved in this process, it just, it was in alignment with what I was trying to do for my own personal development, which is improve my intuition, over the course of speaking to 5,000 people and setting up all these dates, it definitely helped me with that. So was that like intuition, was that a sort of key ingredient in making you a good matchmaker? I think it is. And I think I was very successful at the company. I was one of the advanced top matchmakers.
And so I think it is a great tool. And this is something that I teach my clients now as a coach is how to access intuition in business and life and dating. It is so important to trust your gut. And, you know, Gina, you ask, like, what are some of my key points? That's I'd say number one is you it's it's like people right now are leading so much with kind of the wrong. things, I guess.
They're looking at the pictures, they're looking at the stats, they are looking at, you know, all these things that like really until you meet somebody, those things are a thing on a piece of paper, an app or a photo or video of a, you know, a stagnant, you don't know, you can't sense that chemistry, you cannot sense that energetic exchange. And this is so important. And this is where we are going, especially with AI, we have to be able to trust our own inner guidance system.
is never really gonna steer you wrong. But we as humans and society and culture have covered that up. And we have downplayed the importance of that. But now with everything that is happening technologically, we have to learn how to bring that to the forefront. So that is what I would say is like definitely my first tip. OK, but a lot of people trust their gut and swipe past 99 percent of. I don't trust my gut at all. Or you don't trust your gut at all.
No, everybody's looking at the photos and that's what I'm saying. Then your gut. That's not really your gut, that's like your photo. Like I heard you talk about that on this podcast. It's more reactive rather than because people can say my intuition has taken me, you know, wrong path in the past, but then you can question, but were you really listening to your intuition? Exactly. That's so true.
It's like people will say like, oh, I trusted my gut and it's like, well, there's subtleties to the intuition. This is not like, especially when you haven't really developed this skill, it's not going to beat you over the head. Like mine now. Yes, it is immediate. I know I've trusted it. It is so clear. But when you are just starting, it so subtle. It like this little feeling in your stomach. It this little tingle that you get. It a little headache that
coming on. It's this feeling that like This person is crazy. People will tell you in their profile they're crazy. They will literally tell you they're crazy and you're not even listening to it. And I'm not saying don't go on the date because of that, but it's like, OK, just file that as part of the information. And then as you get to know the person and you build that, you know, add to that file. But it's so true. Daniel, people are like, oh, I listen. No, you're.
Not really. You have to get quiet. or a second... to get quiet. Or it's like those classic like you know comedy sketches where you listen to like like the first few words of the message and you run so it's that your intuition is like well Daniel she's cute she's good I'm sorry he's like no but however she's crazy she says right there she's great well I'm not listening anymore you said she's Exactly. She looks hot in a bikini. She says she's crazy, but she looks hot in a bikini.
Here are her six bikini photos. And oh, my God, like I'm like, oh, I'm into it. Yeah. You know, yeah. So people aren't really listening. And this is a skill just like everything else, like everything else, going to the gym, like working out, like learning how to write, like learning, how to sell whatever you want to do. You it's a skill you develop and it's not automatic. We all have it. OK, we all have people always ask me, how do you develop that?
Well, we have it but it's a skill set to develop it, especially in love, especially in dating, because we as humans want to connect, right? We want to be in love. We want have all these experiences with another human. And so it is a subtle way of how do you develop that? I mean, some people's gut tell them the wrong thing, okay? Their knee-jerk reaction does not allow them to explore a wider array of tastes. I have so many girlfriends who's immediate gut.
tells them to swipe left on just about everybody. Or their gut tells them that the only way they will feel like they have been taken out on a date is if they go to like some four-star restaurant. an outsider looking in, I'm like, girl, your gut needs to be in alignment. Take it to Firestone, get it realigned because it's kind of steering you down the wrong path. So maybe I should understand what you mean by trusting your gut.
But that, well, what you brought up, Gina, kind of comes brings me to one of my second points is like, you know, what's the problem right now is that nobody is actually going out on dates. They're not going out and dates that much because they're swiping. They're swapping. And so it's like, what, you know, a couple of the other points is, like, go out on the second date because you can't tell everything on the first date. And we talked about this before.
It's like do a casual date as a matchmaker. I, unless my client demanded it and some did and they were paying a lot of money. I would never set up dinner dates. I told you this. I am anti-dinner date for the first date, especially for a blind date. So many people have said that. Absolutely. I believe in that as well.
I think it makes practical sense actually because you know sort of you know planning ahead and being very intentional with what outcome you're looking for it makes perfect sense to not go and commit yourself to you know one and a half two hours with somebody who like essentially isn't a stranger right you might have exchanged text messages and stuff but yeah it makes sense to me. I mean although like this is not exact science. Right, right, right. If you're feeling it.
But I also think like from my own personal experience, actually, when we when we're talking about, you know, sort of gut reaction, what we're saying earlier about, Calvin saying earlier about you know you really have to listen to your gut. Sometimes we think we're like we're having a gut reaction. We're not. It's more of a knee jerk reaction, right? So in the past, in my younger self, I used to think, I'm not feeling it. And I used I used call it chemistry. Like, I'm not feeling the chemistry.
And I And I sort of got now at a later stage in my life, I looked back to those relations, like, you know, was I listening to my guy because because obviously I did not listen to it completely because I'm still thinking about those people and said, had I given it some chance, yes, could have developed into something because, you know, I hate to say my parents were right and they were not.
They were not, but there was some truth to what they were saying, because it was based on their life experience because they were saying look for it was their way of saying looking look for somebody you're compatible with. And their understanding of compatibility was having the same Korean heritage to this in the language, et cetera. And so on that note, I think they were wrong, but they were right that now I do value compatibility so much more than chemistry. So chemistry fizzles away.
Chemistry is great for the first three, four, five months if you're lucky for a couple of years, but chemistry inevitably, like if you don't have compatibility, if you are lucky, you have the chemistry and the compatibility is there too. But if you only have chemistry, it doesn't carry. Whereas if you have compatibility and you're able to just to develop chemistry over time that lasts you much longer, I think It's so true.
You asked, you know, kind of trends that I saw or things that I saw in doing this work. And that's exactly it. People came to the company, spent a lot of money per date, and then expect that we are going to be able to find this, you know, needle in a haystack chemistry. All the time. People are like, I didn't feel chemistry. I didn' feel chemistry, it's like a lot of the times I don't think people understand what chemistry is. And I don' think they actually understand what connection
is. And they're looking for this, like we mentioned, this rom-com idea of like boy meets girl, girl meets boy, boy, boy, girl, fall in love, you know, have sex on the first date. And it's like, it's not like that. And that doesn't last. And I always encouraged everybody, including what I would say to your viewers, is you've got to go on the second or more dates. Unless something egregious happens, you have got to give people another chance. Like I had a client.
She's like, I always would encourage all my clients on this, especially because you're paying all this money for to go through this process. The feedback is decent. You liked him, he liked you, vice versa. I'm just gonna talk about heterosexual dates on this podcast just to keep it simple. And it's like... And then you're like, no, he asks you or you say like, he wants to go on a second date because that's how our feedback would work. And then they don't go. And I'm like, why?
Oh, I don't feel the chemistry. You people, okay, I'm talking to your listeners out there. Most people do not know in the first date. Everyone thinks they do. They come to matchmaking and they think, I know. But I have so many examples of when I push my clients to go out on the second date, go out in the third date, keep it casual, keep it light, and then they end up falling in love. Because you cannot see all these pieces and facets of a person.
on a first date and especially, sorry, Gina, but not on a dinner date. It's too much pressure. I think it's too much pressure if it's like Daniel set you up and you both kind of knew each other knew the person that he's setting you up with. That's different, okay, but a complete stranger on a dating app. Yeah, because there's a little bit of work done already there, but yeah. It's too much pressure on a dating app. It's to much pressure. You just need to do light, bright and simple.
Yeah, but I love food, you know, so I. So then you're going for the food. I'm going for food, okay? Wayna Gina's heart is gone to dinner. That's right! I have no fuzzy feelings about coffee. I do have fuzzy feelings about Japanese curry. There you go, there you go. Yeah. And that's fine to make that known. And, you know, if you were my client and I'm coaching you, I'd be like, it's on the dinner date.
I don't want to sound like an old cynical person but um the idea of love at first sight seems awesome but it's just a practically speaking unrealistic it's an anomaly it's not gonna happen actually even if you do find love at foresight and you say you uh you know love fall in love passionately with somebody at first site and then you end up spending the rest of your life with them i don't think it's necessarily because you found love i believe that you Thank you for all your
love. but you actually love that person because over time you learn more, right? And so there's no such thing as, as love at first sight. There's love at the first sight that if you're lucky enough develops into love, but love at First Sight is usually lust at first site and then the last kind of, you know, and the longer I live in the longer, like I am so convinced that that's true, you know, And it really has to be given time.
Well, my so my life is a reflection of the opposite of that, believe it or not. So I've been married, I been engaged and then pseudo engaged another time. The one that I was engaged to where I broke off the relationship before I got married was somebody that I actually knew for like four years. We were colleagues. And then, you know, an incident happened in my life and he called to see if I was okay, and then. we started a relationship that way after four years of working together.
And then we got together. So we knew each other very well by the time we were, you know, like hooking up and then we engaged. And then ultimately I was just like, oh my God, he is so the wrong person for me. Because when we got into a relationship, all these parts of him came out that I never knew before. Like he was intensely jealous. I mean, why would he show jealousy when we're colleagues, right? So like.
And then he started saying things like, oh, so after we get married, you are not going to be going out to lunch with your girlfriends because I'm now your husband and you should be going out with me, like all kinds of shit where I was like. So wait, let me ask you a controversial question, Gina, seriously, going back to what we first started this conversation
with. In those four years, did you ever have any kind of inkling, something, something in your body telling you like, no, maybe not, maybe he's not the right one, but you kept going. Oh, are you talking about when we're in the relationship or doing the four years that we were colleagues? Oh, no, during the relationship like before the before that many red flags. Many red flags. Yes, many red flags during the relationship. Before you got engaged?
Yeah, like, a couple red flags before we got engaged, and then more red flags, many, many more reds after we got
red lights after we got engaged. Yeah, but then you cut the cord once you realize but but that to me actually that that is an affirmation of what we're talking about because you got to know them better there was no chemistry or you know sort of the lust part you you had known each other so you got know each other well as colleagues but once you got to know him better as a lover then you're like oh no like you you trusted your intuition right so it wasn't a case of of love at first sight.
Yeah, I mean, it wasn't even intuition. It was like more like like every flag was red flags. That is part of intuition. There were like so many red flags, like I couldn't see him through the red flags
see him through the red flags. You'll be surprised though and I'll be the first one to admit I mean I saw a lot of red flags with uh you know my my daughter's mom uh and she's a she's a wonderful person there's nothing wrong with her as a person but I you know if I'm honest with myself look in hindsight we were not right for each other yeah yeah um and went ahead with it anyway because the invitations had already got I like stupid things like You know, the catering is already done.
Yeah, it's stupid and and and all what more are my parents gonna say? Yeah. Yeah. Yep. So many people So many people, it's not stupid, Daniel. Just keep moving forward. Yeah, so many people that I've talked to like they were standing at the altar and they were like they knew it was wrong And then they went through with it Yep, yep. Because it takes massive amount of guts to basically stand there or go to your parents or go to society or your family or your friends and cut
it. Like that takes massive amounts of balls and people like they're just like, oh, I'll make it work. I'll figure it out. Yeah, I'll just suck it up. And it's like, no, we're not at that place. Like we have a finite period of time on this planet. We've got to like go for it. And we got to enjoy our life. You know, and so if you're sensing that you've got had learned to pay attention to that soon. It's like, you know, that book like Fail Fast, right? Like, yeah.
So there is a very famous relationship expert and she used to be head of dating at Hinge and she wrote a book, Logan Urie. I love her book. I recommend it to everybody. It's called How Not to Die Alone. And chapter seven is, can I cuss on this? Of course, we encourage it. Fuck the spark. And it's so true what you're saying because she's talking about how this idea of like this like lust and up. But no, it's really like, how are you gonna get along with
this person? How are they gonna be when the shit hits the fan and you're in the hospital or something happens with your parents or something with your kid? Like that's what you really wanna start to look for and look at is like, and this is like one of my other big points. It's like the spark is great, like you mentioned, and I'm not saying don't have any spark. but the compatibility, if that's what you're looking for.
If you're just looking to have fun and you just want to fuck around, that's a whole different conversation, right? But if you're serious about getting into a love relationship and building something with somebody, then you need to look at that compatibility factor. And that thing that I call, it's like what we were talking about before, it's my mom used to call it making jello. You could just do nothing with the
person. You could make jello with the personally and you could feel happy and fulfilled and satisfied. You don't have to be. traveling the world and going to the Four Seasons, you can be with someone in a room and feel really good and be silent. You know, it's like, if you're looking for a long-term relationship that you think you want to last, this is what you should be focusing on, is like, how compatible am I with this person and how comfortable do I feel? Do I feel like myself?
You know? Do I I feel good? Yeah. Well, okay. So to that point, I hate to be the naysayer. I'm not. I know you probably think Daniel because you know me very well. I never think you're a naysayor. Shut up. So I am like, almost the living example of the antithesis of that, not only because of my example that I already gave of my colleague, but because I was in another relationship for eight years. and he was everything a girl could ask for,
okay? Like super sweet, vulnerable, like just amazing, amazing human, being loved to travel, super smart, like had an amazing job. Like on paper, he was just great and we knew each other like hand and foot. Like we had no problem with bodily functions around each other. We were like totally two peas in a pod. Like before I said anything- making jello. We were making jello, we could be silent. We could be talking. After year five, I was like, I think I'm going to have a
migraine. I think, I have a migrate today. I think have a my grain tomorrow. I don't think we can have sex today. I don' think I want you to come any near me. I'm going to have migraine for the next five months. I'm gonna have a migraine until we break up. And somehow we just completely lost the chemistry. I say we, but really it was just me. He even got me a book called, you know, The Art of Kissing.
And he bought me a highlighter and he goes, you know, because you don't like to kiss me anymore, can you highlight the sections that you'd like me to work on? Like, this is how amazing this guy was. And I was just like, oh, my God, after this, like, I just at least have to try. I have to tried to fall back in love again. But like every time he leaned forward, I would just be like, my body would just like sometimes I would try to force myself to like lean back into him.
But there was like this invisible, like magnetic force where like the negative and the negative were trying to come together. And one time, I swear to God, I felt my body like just go Like like just like go back, almost like I was repulsed by this guy that I'd already been with. Let's hope this guy's not listening to this podcast. I know, I know. Right. So like everything, like you were saying, the connection was super deep.
I don't think that's necessarily an example of an antithesis of what we're talking about. Not everybody you're compatible with, you're going to have chemistry with at the end of the day. But I'm saying chemistry without chemist- I submit to you, it is impossible. Right, but so that's why we're not saying it's compatibility versus chemistry. What we're saying is, chemistry doesn't always lead to compatibility, right? Well, I mean, yeah.
I mean of course, and compatibility doesn't always lead to chemistry.
but I think what we're saying is because we have been conditioned by romcoms and like all this idea and cinder we think we're looking for that spark and maybe that's not the way to go about it right you look for compatibility and it doesn't mean that if you go this way you're going to strike a hundred it just means that this is a better way to do about it so in that in your particular case it didn't work out but what we are saying is but going for the spark only only is a recipe for
disaster I don't think I don't think there's one, I don' know one girlfriend of mine. I mean, we're all looking for the whole package. And I'm telling you, some of your friends are lying to you. Yes. And they're not honest with themselves for the whole package. They're not honest when they say like, oh, I'm looking for the spark. And like what Daniel saying, they're lying. They're not they're not being honest with themselves because most people are not self aware enough to
understand. And they haven't sat back and thought about what it is they want. So I'm not saying don't have any spark. I'm saying go on the second date. See if the third date, fourth date, casual, see if it develops, don't just swipe left. Don't just say no when they ask you out, don't ghost them when they asked you out for the second date because you're like, I didn't feel
it. I've seen so many stories where, and I've see this firsthand where it developed and they actually ended up having a lot in common and the spark developed. Right now, the way we are in the world, post COVID, people are just trying to figure out how to get back in person and date. People don't even know what the fricking spark is right now. You know, and it's like we're having to relearn all of these things. A lot of people are.
And so it's like you can't just discount somebody because you didn't feel this like unicorn and rainbow on the first date, you know, as you're sitting at your dinner. You know you're saying given the benefit of the doubt, give it, give people the chance unless you see a bunch of red flags, in which case. to trust your gut. Then run for the mountain. Then, okay. Yeah, and if it's like.
And if it's like, you're just feeling like this person is unsafe, this person is crazy, or this person super jealous, and you can sense those things. And it's the approach, and no, your friends are your friends, but I... You are one of my friends. No, no, I'm saying like when you say, I don't have any friends who are just looking for the spark. But when I say and I'm speaking generically here that people are lying to themselves because I hear so often people who say.
No, I'm looking for something called I'm looking for connections. So how do you go about it? It's like, well, he has to be five foot 11. He has to do this. He has be this. None of what you're telling me tells me that you're looking for connection. It tells me you're looking for the spark. for the guy who gets you all thrilled. the physical. And it can be physical. It can be. But it's like.
But everything that you telling me is about the spark you're looking for that your spark to go off, not necessarily to find a connection, even though they say they're looking for a connection. So it's. And I don't think that they're lying to themselves, I just don't think that there are aware because again, I blame this on society and dating apps, because we have been conditioned to think about this. And that's the matrix is what we need to break away
from. Yeah, it's because we've been conditioned to think that We'll be right back after a quick word from our sponsors. Our sponsor, Take My Face Off, makes swiping off your makeup just as easy as swiping past a bad profile. Seriously, the MIDI from Take My face off is this adorable facial mitt that makes skin cleansing faster, easier, and more thorough than any other method I've tried. I seriously love this product. Next time you're tempted to grab a face wipe, use a MIDI instead.
It's just as fast, but it's better for your skin and the planet. Get free shipping with the discount code DATING at takemyfaceoff.com. I understand the nuances that you guys are addressing here. Like going back to matchmaking, people would come to us because they were very disillusioned with the apps or they couldn't be on the apps or they were married for 12 years and had no idea how to date or their widow or
something. But then they come to broken from whatever the thing is and then they pay a lot of money to hire a matchmaker. And then they think, oh, because I'm paying all this money, they're going to be able to find me is perfect or Mr. Perfect. You're going to find me the spark.
and they're constantly thinking I couldn't find the spark out there or don't know how to find the spark out here and I'm going to pay you X a lot and then you are going to find me the spark and you it's your job to find, me the broken pieces to pick and cobble the pieces together to present to this person that you want because you think you're paying a lot of money. And your answer to that is, it's you. The problem is you. I have a perfect real-life example.
I have a younger brother who's happily married and been married to the same woman, has two beautiful children, has been married for now I say like almost 25-30 years. Wow. And I love my sister-in-law. She's like perfect for him. I think she's, I think my brother's a total loser. I'm just kidding. Had he not married Sophia, he would have been a total looser. But, so I'm the oldest.
And as the oldest son of Korean immigrants, my parents were always trying to like, you know, set me up with a nice Korean girl. And I resisted so much. I'm like, you don't know me. How you guys, you don' know me, right? And so now in hindsight, I'm thinking like, of course they know me And the worst that could have happened if I went on those blind dates that my parents were trying to set me up with is that I would have just met someone and maybe it would have worked out.
Maybe it wouldn't have, but why did I have this inherent? So like this, that's bad. That's not how, that not how sparks started. That's that's so unromantic. Whereas my brother, when he got set up through friends of my parents and friends to say, Oh, she'll be perfect for your son. He met her and it's funny because my brother and I are so different. Like I've always been the straight and narrow, I got good grades in school, and he was all
over the place. But when it came to this particular thing, he's like, when my parents said, meet this girl, he went and met her. And then he had her go on dates, like, so quote unquote, dates with all of his friends, like female friends and male friends. And then ask them, do you think she's compatible with me? What do you see about this? What do what? Dude, he went through this whole process and proof is in the pudding. He's been married all these years and I'm divorced.
Yeah, because I was looking for the spark and I found the spark and it was great for a little while. Yeah, you know, and then it wasn't there anymore. Ding ding ding. My brother's story is similar, and he got set up. They were both at a wedding. My sister-in-law is perfect for my brother. They've also been married for 25 years or something. And they got set-up, and they figured it out, and they have been happily ever after married.
And it was like the set- up, you know, back in the day, all these Indian, South Asian, they do arrange marriages, and it freaking works. And this is one of the tips I have for your listeners. If somebody sets you up or volunteers to set you up or says, Daniel, go meet this girl on the corner of Lincoln and Maxilla at three o'clock, if they know you at all, you just say yes and you go. Hmm That's like one of the things that we talked about, the three of us, it's like, go on the date, just go.
You don't have to like do, you know, this like- What does he do? Where does he live? Does he have a house? Exactly, 10 questions, spreadsheets, photos, profiles. No, if they know you and they're willing to do that, absolutely, just on the day and just make it casual and just get to know somebody and just look at it like I always tell people, a conversation with a new friend.
That's it, you're not trying to figure out if this is like your baby mama or your baby daddy or your next, you know, whatever, love relationship. Your only job on the first date is to see how you feel in the presence of this person. You're not tryna figure out anything. Stop the madness. Stop trying to find out their FICO score. Stop trying figure out like how many people they've been with or how many relations. That doesn't matter. Just be in the moment and feel into your soul like.
how am I feeling, you know, and take responsibility for your feelings and say like, oh, I'm feeling like really happy and like lighthearted and I feel good, that's energy. You are just trying to sense the energy of you and this person. That's the other problem with dating and dating apps right now is everyone's trying to figure out everything way too soon. Back in the day when our parents probably got together, it was like letters, it was maybe some phone calls.
over periods of time and then a couple of dates and then some casual dates. And then it took time and you kind of unveiled, you know, like all of these things about yourself. It wasn't just like, bam, like let me ask them all these questions. Yes, instant gratification. Yeah, so I can get out of this dinner or so I can go on to the next way.
Yeah, that's where the fairy tales come into like all the all the sort of the conditioning that we've had through fairy tales Everybody's so in a hurry to get to the happily ever after Mm-hmm. It's like, I don't wanna s- There's a whole fucking life after happily ever after, you know, Cinderella probably divorced the Prince, you know, after five, 10 years, you know, we just don't know because the story ended when they were both young and beautiful and love, you know, that's where it ends.
Okay, so what I'm hearing from you is trust your gut and, you know, give somebody the benefit of the doubt. What other observations? Go on the date. Go on the date, yeah. make it casual, have some fun. Like everything is just way too serious right now. Like you've just got to like get out there and like have fun and meet people and put yourself out there. And, you know, one of the main, main things is please work on yourself.
Like I also another book that I would recommend to all my clients and I recommend to everybody is The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. One of the two agreements for dating particularly are, don't take anything personally and don't make assumptions. Everybody is so busy taking everything personally and making assumptions. He didn't call me, he must not like me. You don't know how many calls I've been on with people. No, we have no idea what's going on in his life or her life.
We don't We don't know if something happened. We don' know what is going on. It's not, you're just assuming that the reason that they didn't call is because they don't like you. You have no idea. Because if you go into, this is energy. If you go in to anything in life and you are hating it, you are not gonna get the result that you are seeking. If you're serious. You're already starting from a negative. If you are serious.
You know, as you're saying that I thought occurs to me, I'm wondering if there's something happening in our modern times where sort of we have stopped distinguishing fantasy from from reality. And before we knew Cinderella was fantasy to a certain extent. And now because of social media, like I just recently read an article about this social media influencer. She's a housewife in Utah. Her husband is the son of the founder of JetBlue. So these are like, just wealthy people in general, right.
And her social, she has like millions of followers on Instagram. And she's like a sale on their Mormons. So they have a dairy farm, she makes her own cheese So there was this article in the New York Times and Wall Street Journal where people are hating on her. Like there are two camps, like traditionalist conservatives who love this image of the conservative wife who stays home and makes bread from scratch and stuff, right?
And then, so there are people who are like, you are, you know, perpetuating stereotypes It's about like, you know. you know, antiquated ideas about women's role in society. This is bad, you're stereotyping women. And some on the other camp goes, no, she's a perfect example. And I'm like, both of you shut the fuck up. It's not real. It's real, it's Instagram. Does she show you going to the bathroom and having diarrhea because of the milk, you know that was not pasteurized? You don't see that.
You know, like you see the husband, like, you know waking up with pee in his underpants. No, you don't, you now. I was trying to figure out what's the least romantic perfect image that I can come up with. That can come up with it, yeah. Pee in her pants. That's a red flag. That's the red flag, that's the flag. You should not go after that. Sounds like a medical... That's not medical. He has a medical problem. That's a good one. See you in the medical guy. I hear you. I hear.
But that social media, what we think is reality. True. That's so true. Even reality TV, the Kardashians, that's not their real life. Exactly. It's scripted. It's for our consumption. And I think because we have such a preponderance of that and people think that social media is reality, in a subconscious way, when we're dating apps, That's why dating apps are so, because again, it's like the swiping and the gamification and like sort of you would turn people into these objects.
And it's so really hard to get to that connectivity, you know, part. Well, do you have any solutions? Have you thought of a way out? I was thinking about this on the way over and, you know, Jean and I went to UCLA and I was thinking about this quote that I always lived by John Wooden, the the winningest NCAA basketball coach in history. And he has this quote, Do not do not mistake activity for achievement. OK, I love this. I love that quote too. Because this is what is happening with dating.
Mm-hmm. You think you are on this app, you think, you know, you're getting these likes or you're swiping or you are standing in the Starbucks line and you're swipe, swipe, swipe and you are like, oh, I'm doing something to find my person. I'm do something about my dating life, my romantic life. If that is what you are doing, you are not in the right frame. to be truly, I'm talking about people that really want a relationship, okay?
If you just wanna fuck around and you just want to hook up, that one, that's something different. But if you really want relationship, you have got to work on yourself first. Come as whole as you can to the field, right? And so look at your shadows, work on your shadows. Understand your triggers. Figure out some self-awareness before you even get on this dating app. That's what I would say, number one. Number two. You've got to just get out there and go on casual dates and just meet people.
It's a muscle. It's just like everything else. It gets easier over time. You start to practice. You learn how to flow. You learn to say, thank you so much. I just don't feel like this is the right match after you've gone on a couple of dates or you've really seen the things that you really need to see. Then you learn how not ghost. You learn, how to be a real human because we have got to stop this ghosting. If there is one thing I would love your listeners and viewers to stop now.
Everybody just take some responsibility and text that person back or call that person back or send a voice text or send an email. There's a thousand ways to say, thank you so much. I just really don't see that this is, you know, this is not the direction that I am wanting to go or I just really don t see this connection really panning out or just say something. There is a way to say everything exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So we've got to stop that ghosting.
And then third is like, we've gotta have fun. You really have got to have fun again in dating. And if you find yourself hating it, being very negative about it, you know, sitting on the phone with your friends complaining about it for two hours. Stop the madness. Starting a podcast about it. That's another way of coping. That's a great way of coping. Stop the madness! Step back! It's entertaining.
Yeah, but but I think you guys are really helping people because you're talking about these issues that people don't have someone to talk With about but step back really stop the apps take a break and until you can get in the frame of mind to be excited And positive and see what you have to offer and what you had to share and be open to truly meaning someone that might not have the checklist and might not have the FICO score and might not be six foot tall, ladies,
please stop with the six feet tall. Stop with the hyper requirement. The hype thing is crazy. It's insanity. Yeah, it's crazy! So if until you can get to that place of feeling good in your own center about dating, please do yourself a favor and don't go on the apps.
Because it is everything is energy and you are basically putting in more negative energy into this field of already just very challenging times and very challenging energy and you're not helping yourself and you are not helping anybody else. I almost went on a date with the guy who just sounded amazing and he looked great and like he was saying all the right things. And then he goes, by the way, I have, what was it? I have four kids from three different moms. And I was like, okay.
I mean, that's a little bit of a red flag for me. I'm not gonna completely count you out because I don't know what kind of life you've had or whatever. Whatever. I know, right. At some point in the process, baby mama number two, did you think about it? But anyway, so I was just like, okay, I'm not going to like, you know, super judge you right now. Let's let's hear more. And then after a couple more conversations predate, okay, never went out with the guy.
Um, he told me that his last long term girlfriend of like a year and a half. He just broke up with a month ago. And that was ultimately the nail in the coffin. I was just like, okay, so you have three baby mamas and four kids. And then you had a long-term relationship that you got out of a month ago. So you're just like not wanting to learn anything about yourself or what happened and like break this down to see how you can avoid making these things happen again.
Which brings me like to another solution that I have. I know that, you know, we wanna give tips for your viewers and listeners. I think Gina disagrees with me on this, but get to the video date. Stop the madness with all the texting through the app. I do video dates, yeah. If you have any inclination that, oh, I'm kinda curious, just kinda curious. Get to the videodate. And we used to say in the matchmaking business, one of my friends, not real, not ready.
If they don't wanna go on the video date with you or they don' wanna go and meet you, not real not ready, like I don't care like how amazing. I've got a question. So specifically on video data, you mean as opposed to like a phone call? No, yes, I'm a fan of like the video day. to the video date. How about like a casual coffee meet as opposed to a video date? That's okay too, but I'm just a fan of like, get to the video date because you might not even necessarily need the coffee.
But is that because you want to see their mannerisms and what they look physically like? Yeah, and I teach people about energy.
And you can sense a lot of things via video on energetically for sure You can see a lot Of things and I know that might sound like controversial or like against what I said earlier about giving everybody a chance But you can sensed things and your gut will tell you things when you go on that video date Your gut will be firing like scary scary danger danger or you know, you'll you'll just sense things like That's one of the ways that I would you know make the matches because I was
interviewing all these people on zoom So if you see their house is just like a complete shit show of like like there's piles of shit everywhere I mean, that's like a pretty good indication if you are a very clean organized person or if you don't even have the sense to hide that with an angle. or you come on the video date and you just look completely disheveled and they look drunk and it's like 10 a.m. It's just like 100%. So those are the things that I'm saying, I'm not saying go on a date
with that person. I'm saying like, okay, we kind of cut to the chase a little bit with the video date. But what is happening now, it's just too much texting on the app. I personally think being drunk at 10 a.m. is the best time, you know, then you're done with it Best time of the day to be drunk Well, Carolyn, this has been super great and helpful. And now I can see why you are a matchmaker to all these people.
I think everybody's very different, but I think what you say, if somebody just gave somebody a second chance, if somebody did a gut check before they made summary judgments, if they took the time to reflect on themselves and work on themselves, which I think are the three things that you absolutely harped on. you can't go wrong, so I think that's pretty valuable. And really have fun. Really, we've got to get back to fun with dating. Get the fuck out there. Yes, we got to have fun with dating.
Don't make every excuse to stay home. Yeah, it's supposed to be fun, people. It really is. It is really supposed to be fun. fun. I know that matchmaking is not for everybody, partly because, you know, it's just the nature of the beast. It costs money and not everybody financially can afford it. And I've got a confession to make. I mean, we've had matchmakers in the past here and I had a negative perception of matchmakers because I thought it was just like a different version of dating apps.
But you did change my mind. I don't think every matchmaker is like you in that sense, but matchmaking done right is basically that it's about trying to help someone see something that they can't see because of the new jerk reaction or because of the quick judgment that people make and we're so used to doing it these days it's like having another set of vibes somebody who's informed trying to tell you Gina Daniel like i've taken the time to get to know you i've done the homework for you and i'm
gonna go and find people that i think is gonna be a bit like trust somebody outside of you to find instead of like Going back to your habits that you've had for decades and decades, you know, so from that sense, I think it makes perfect sense. I appreciate that. And I'm really glad that I could change your viewpoint on that, because I think we all need to become matchmakers for our friends and family. And if somebody wants to set you up, I'm telling you, just go meet the person. They're the best
people. Yeah. Like, if you guys want to set me up, I will go meet on the corner of the market. So it's just like. Honestly, if somebody wants to do that for you, thank them with gratitude and just meet the person. Unless none of my friends are good enough for you, so. Yeah I know lots of amazing women. I'd set you up with each other. There you go. That may be the future. That may be the future. Women's brunch. That might be the future. There's not going to be male and
female. We're just going to be all one. just going to be all one if you listen to Gina long enough that is the future because it doesn't seem like she can find any guy out there who's worthy of I mean, I have in the past, you know, I've been married, I've been engaged. it's just a different ballgame now. I have no idea whether this is I have no idea whether this is baseball, basketball, football, I have not fucking clue.
But but in all seriousness, though, I mean, you know, we talk about in the podcast that that dating apps are just a tool. It's not they're not inherently good or bad. Right. And I think in all serious, Gina Gina goes about it with intentionality. It just said, there's so much crap to wade through. Well, you yourself Well, you yourself have said you don't have one guy that you would match with me.
Yeah, because I know they're not see because not but it has nothing to do in joking aside I mean, I love my friends and I think they're good people but again because now I know you and I know them and I Know it's like I don't know anybody that would actually be a good match for you, right? Yeah, not but not because you you're there's any deficiency on you or any deficiency my friends It's just that like, you know, you met my friend. Yeah, you made my friend alex I think he's a wonderful guy.
I think she's gonna make somebody a great partner But he's probably not a great, you're not a right person for sure. Yeah But but that is actually who knows you better than the people around you. Yeah and tell everybody you're single. Really, I always would coach all my clients to do that. You've got to tell people that you're open to meeting somebody. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Otherwise they don't know. Exactly, they come to the matchmaking service and they're like, I would. So we are a coach.
We really are a Coach. Matchmakers are coaches. That's why it's in alignment with what I do. It was like, well, I say, have you told everybody that you are single? Oh no, I can't do that! Oh, but you can come to a matchmaking service, pay all of this money for a stranger that's going to talk to you, me, who's going to get to know you, but then I'm going to set you up with a stranger. But you can't tell your family, your friends, that you are open to being set up.
Those are the best avenues of potential dates for you. Yeah, yeah because that is gonna spark their memory and be like, oh yeah, I have that person that loves scuba diving and plays football and loves travel. Oh, okay, let me just set you up. And the reason why people don't set other people up is because it's too much pressure. But if we took that out and just said, meet on the corner at this place for a walk with the wind blowing and just this casual walk.
And then it was very easy for people to set people up and they don't have to exchange photos and dossiers and CVs. They would go. Isn't that the sort of like, you know, going back to what I was saying earlier about, you know, when I was younger, my parents trying to set me up, right? No, no. Oh, that's so gross. No, it's like, Daniel, how's your love life going? How many dates have you gone out in the last three months? I am so lonely, I don't have anybody.
And then meanwhile, there are all these people who try to set you up, even actually, because you have this knee jerk reaction, even when my friends try to send me up and no, no, I'm not that desperate and then back on my mind, I think, no I am the desperate actually, I should listen to my friends, right? Because how are you doing Daniel? How, you know, nowadays, dude, how are doing the dating apps? Oh, my God, like I'm striking out or it's like Can I set you up?
No, no, no. I'm not that desperate. not going to do that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a sort of this idea that people have. Yes, it is. Mindset, mindset. Yes, I don't need help. Yes, it's this mindset shift that we have to shift. I don't need help. Yeah, we all need help, like I'm super big. Like if I want to learn to be a better pickleball player or a better chef, I hire somebody. I hire a coach. I think that that's the best way, the fastest way to get to where you want to be.
Don't do the pickleball though. Pickleball is evil. Don't No, I'm deep in. I'm already too late. Well, Carolyn, thank you so much for your time. You're welcome. This was a lot of fun. Yeah, it was. That's another successful episode of I Hate Dating App. Yes, you can't love with them. And you can't love without them. Till next time. And on Instagram, we're at iHateDatingAppsPod. And don't forget to like and subscribe wherever you're listening to this podcast.