20% of women reject 80% of men on dating apps and vice versa. 80% of men reject only 20% of women. So and also women's profiles are all about for the most part is what they want in a relationship. If you notice women are, you know, I want this in a man. I want this in a man whereas men generally or I have this to offer. Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of I hate dating apps. I'm Gina and I'm Daniel. Well, today uh sparks are gonna fly.
It is a topic that I might not be looking forward to, right? Because we're gonna put Gina on the hot spot here. Uh The theme today is are women the problem. Now, just before you guys lose your stuff, uh We're going to have a balance. We're going to have another episode or we're gonna talk about men being the problem. But today on this episode, we're gonna talk about women being the problem. So we have two great guests. It's not women being the problem. It's our women,
the problem. We are not a definitive. The sparks are flying already. I'm here to defend. I got my boxing gloves on Gina. Gina's outnumbered today though. So it's ok, usually enough for about five guys. So we have two great guests today. Uh, fellow podcasters. What's up with Joshua Joshua? Can you introduce yourself? Hi, my name is Joshua Jones. I am just an average Joe who
is also been on the dating apps. I run a podcast called The Not so bad Bachelor Pad where we focus on, you know, what leveling up and becoming quality men worthy of people like Gina here. So cute. And we also have all the way from London today from London. Introduce yourself. Hi,
Ron. So my name is Drew and I have a podcast as well. Midlife Masculine and its primary primarily targeted towards men in their midlife who sort of reached an inflection point and are looking at the second half of their lives to change it to the best of their abilities and become the man that they've always wanted to become. Oh, well, Drew, how did you, how did you get into that? Are you a therapist or
I'm not a therapist. I work in a bank. So uh a normal guy but uh COVID changed things for me and like many people, I'm educated. Uh I have a job and I thought I was doing well in life. But when COVID happened and they told us that you're only allowed to go out once a week or once a day, you're only allowed to do that. This. And I thought, hang on, I'm not in control of my life. I'm not as sovereign as I thought.
And that was the beginning. And I thought, you know what I want to bring ancient knowledge, wisdom, ancient Indian Chinese African knowledge, all of that, what our ancestors had to men today so that they can use the second half of their lives and become the best version of themselves. And I'm a student as well and I use my own podcast as a medium to get through to other men in a similar position. That's great.
So we have two quality men here with, with, with, you know, very modern male perspectives on this. And uh just to kick it off uh and doing a little research for the episode today, you know, I looked at like pet peeves and the general theme that occurs like when men complain about women um on dating apps is the expectation. There's this one guy, Reddit is a great place to, to, to look at what people can also like a little extreme, but the extreme sort of paints a picture, right?
So, not necessarily that's reality, but, you know, so it sort of frames the conversation and the theme, the common theme is women. Uh men don't know what women want. And the other thing is, and this is true on dating apps. Uh Women obviously get a lot more matches than men do and men have a much harder time. Generally speaking, there was some statistic that 20% of women reject. 80% of men on dating apps and vice versa.
80% of men reject only 20% of women. So and also women's profiles are all about for the most part is what they want in a relationship. If you notice women are, you know, I want this in a man, I want this in a man whereas men generally are I have this to offer. So that transaction often is something that men often complain about. So that is true.
Oh my God, you just, you just popped a light bulb in my head because I, I'm on several apps and um I, I have noticed that men are like I do this, I can take you to, you know, sunsets on the beach. I love to go to concerts, you know, and then I, I don't know, I don't look at women on the apps, but I don't know too many women just among my friend circles who are like I can offer this, I can offer that. Women just don't do that. That is so true.
There's an imbalance. Why do you think peacocks have the feathers? I mean, the men have to serve it up. I'm sorry, that's just where we are. But II, I am very interested in what you guys have to say because Daniel and I have a lot of opinions and our listeners and viewers have a lot of opinions on this subject. And I would say that women and men both acknowledge that each party is the problem. Right?
I'm fully acknowledging that women have a lot of issues, especially on the apps based on what I've heard from my guy friends. There's a lot of women out there who are not treating men the best. So I'll start with that. But ask you for your personal as well as maybe the, the people that you encounter your male friends and, and female friends. What they say is the problem generally with women on the apps.
One of the big metaphors that I like to use when I'm in life and dealing with my clients is the metaphor of a seesaw. It takes two people to use it, but you have to work on balancing. So as much as I would like to say, men are the only problem today, I'm gonna have to be honest.
Uh One of the common things that I see a lot in women's dating profiles that makes it harder for, I guess men is, it's, it's like we have to list off a resume like you were saying is like we can provide XY and Z but you say you want a partner, but you're not really listening what you bring to the table. So it, it seems a little one sided there, there are a lot of double standards and the cut off jeans and the big boobs aren't enough Joshua. I mean,
you see what we're bringing to the table. I'm totally kidding. I'm totally kidding. Ok. Go on. I was like, you're right. I was like, if we're just here for 24 hours for a quick, maybe, like, uh, you're, you're getting on the apps to do a vacation or a spring break. You're right. That's the perfect, that's exactly what we want to see. But I was like, that doesn't tell you, tell me anything about you. And if I'm gonna be your partner, we need more.
You know, I was like, just how every guy seems like they have a picture of them with a fishing rod or sunglasses. I feel like all we get is cut off jeans and pushed up cleavage sometimes just say I don't have anything against, uh pushed up cleavage. By the way, that's all Daniel needs to know in a partner.
That's a seesaw for me. But joking aside, when, when I was talking to Jove, uh, you know, in preparation for this episode, he said something that I thought was kind of interesting is the, you know, because he lives in London, I think there's a, there's a um a dynamic that happens in big city, you know, because people who live in big cities have certain expectations, obviously, you know, I, I think it's different from living in a small village where you have, where you have a community
in, in big cities. We tend to, you know, have a slightly different lifestyle and drove. I, I would love to hear from you. Uh, what, what is your experience and has been like, and, and does the fact that we live in big cities impact like people's expectations on dating apps?
Absolutely. Um, living in big city means usually means people come to the big city for work for, for earning, for, um, uh, more money and when women are in the workplace and they have high flying jobs and they're earning, well, obviously they'll want a man who earns at least as much as them or above. But uh when they're already earning that much and people, men who earn more than them,
that population of men just gets shrinks more and more. So the that women have is increasing more and more with time. At the same time, the number of men, the population of men that would meet their expectations is decreasing. And so there's this dynamic here, women are becoming more masculine, they're entering the masculine, the man's world and becoming more like men and women are sort of repel. Men are sort of repelling that because
they don't want to be dating another man. He's not a heterosexual male. So there's a bit of a repelling dynamic that's taking place, especially in the big cities. Yeah. Well, but what are your thoughts drew about the problems you see with women on the apps? I, I agree with Joshua it's uh, the, the pressure is on men to present what they're bringing to the table and men are still uh bring or trying to bring the emotional stability, physical strength, all of that stuff.
But women, unfortunately, they're not really showing what they bring to the table. I mean, if I on the dating apps I match with a woman and if I just happen to talk about cooking, if I ask her just a simple question, like, do you enjoy cooking? Not, are you good at cooking? Do you enjoy cooking? She will be up in arms? She'll take an offense rather than answering the question, she'll just say, do you like cooking? Can you cook?
So again, the tables have turned on the man to show what he is able to bring to the table but the woman, she's not overreact much. Yeah. Right. You're like, it was a simple question. Uh I mean, aside from, from that example, have you had uh uh in, in your experience when you were in dating apps? Give us an example of real life where, where you, where you met that? Aside from the cooking example?
Well, generally it does happen. But uh but lately, I mean, what I do now is if I do match with somebody on the dating app rather meet organically in person. But if I match somebody on the dating app, I will have a phone call before. So 30 minutes and I'm not really talking about anything in particular. It's just a vibe check. Is it easy natural to have a conversation if it flows easily? I know I can stretch out a date for 23 hours,
but that's really the first litmus test. So I don't have any crazy stories because I sort of screen them that way. Uh, but I have other stories where we've sort of gotten into politics or religion and some women have really taken offense and, um, going back to what you said about, um, sort of what's happening. Uh, women just generally speaking, right in modern times, a lot of women earn as men, as much as men do or if not more, if not more. Yeah.
And you and I were talking about this a little earlier about sort of the expectations and what's happening because of that is that, and we're talking about sort of the, the, the percentage of, of, of, uh, uh, matches like women get a lot more matches. So because of this, there's a very small percentage of men that actually check the boxes for what women are looking for. Yeah, they say 10% 90% of women are going after 10% of men.
So, unless we're going to have polygamy where nine women are going to marry one man, I don't think that's right. But that's the, that's the imbalance. I think that's what, what the imbalance is. I, uh, I read this, comment on Reddit again. I know Reddit's are in the extreme.
But this one guy comment, it's like, you know, every time I go on a, on a date with a woman nowadays from a dating app, I feel like I'm getting a financial and history colonoscopy, you know, because they drill you about questions, like how much, you know, like, because it's, it's like, like Joshua is saying, so you, it's almost like going to a job interview, right? Joshua? Because you have to sell yourself. You really do.
And I was like, I know I used the analogy of a interview earlier, but it's more like a talent show because really we're performing, we have to put on this performance, we have to compete with all these other guys because it's very rare in situations that we're the only person that this person is talking to on the app, they probably have three or four other dates lined up throughout the week or maybe even the same day. Who knows if you're in big city? Uh because big d big city dating is crazy.
And so you're like, well, hey, how do I distinguish myself? What razzle dazzle? Can I bring to the table along with being a provider? Because that's just the expectation. Oh, you're going to provide for me that's already in the window that's already in the headspace. So what sets you apart? But also don't be too feminine but be emotionally available. You're not emotionally intelligent, right? So far, I'm not hearing too many problems with women. I think this episode is done. I'm just kidding.
You guys were going lay it on me, solved. Like that's not really a problem. I'm just kidding. I'm gonna, I'm gonna say something. So, one big complaint that women have of men in the dating app is that women and men lie about their height for us. Men, we have a similar problem. Women lie about their looks so much foundation. There are these filters and all types of angles at which you take the photographs.
Many times they take the photographs from top down and showing their breasts and you can't really see how fat they are until you see them in real life. Sometimes I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but I may not want an overweight excessively overweight woman. I may want somebody who's a bit chubby maybe or slim, but that's my preference. Right. So we have a same complaint as well about women deceiving in terms of their looks to us.
It goes both ways. But women are more probably guilty of that than men because I think, I think, I think everybody is guilty of deceiving. But since this episode is about the problem with women, you know? Yeah, I'll try not to say, well, that happens on the other, the other men deceive too. But to Drew's point, I think it's really interesting. I think again, it talks about the expectations, right.
Women want tall, strong men, they say they want it, but they also want like Joshua said that, but you also have to be sensitive. And so you have to have all these qualities that sometimes seem to be contradictory. You have to be sensitive, but you also have to be ready to, you know, get into a brawl to save me. You know, what's wrong with that? Exactly. So there's nothing wrong with it except it's confusing for a lot of men. Why is that confusing is my question?
Do we want you to only be clubbing people over the head and you can't bring a little sensitivity to the table? Like I'm sorry, I'm, I'm totally playing devil's advocate, but I also am failing to see why that is so mysterious or difficult. Joshua has an answer to that. So I, I kind of do this is something that I bring up in conversation and you know what? Since we, since the gloves are gonna come off, let's let's do it.
Take off the gloves, baby. We're good women aren't really ready for an emotionally intelligent man. This is what I'll say. I was like, every man is ready to protect his own. No problem. But when we demonstrate that we can be that it's like who, who, who, who, who, who not only can you be Mr masculine, can you be uh Fabia with the luscious hair and the looks, you know, then it seems like a competition because you're like, well, you're well balanced.
Like, how do I, how do I take you because you know what you want, you have firm boundaries that may sometimes, you know, impede the partners or they're just not, they're not ready for it. They are, we, at least in my generation, there are a lot of people who are brought up on rom coms. So they think an emotionally intelligent man is somebody that they've seen on TV, that they've seen on in a movie.
When in reality, an emotionally intelligent man is somebody who knows who he is, knows what he wants in a partner and sets out a guideline to provide that. And when they see that they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is different than what I expect. Maybe I'm not really ready for it. Maybe I just want that thing that I saw on the television. Amen. What? Wait, I OK. So can you explain that again on to something here? You, so do you clearly understand what
Joshua just said? Yeah. Do, do you understand what Joshua is saying? Yeah, maybe Drew is on the same page with me. So are you saying Joshua that an emotionally intelligent man gets backfired on because the woman is unable to recognize that that's what is coming out. Uh I would say yes, because the there we live in a, we live in a world where there's a lot of versatility in people. So every person is not going to be the sa at the same level of intelligence as everybody else. We know that.
But we've been caught in this cycle of here's what's portrayed on television or here's something new that I've never experienced. So I don't know how to process it. Um So you think that maybe that I'm distant and I don't care when I give you space because I see that you're upset. Maybe you're not, sometimes there's just a miscommunication on the actions. But really, I was like, we're trying to be as supportive as we can, but sometimes that's misconstrued. So
it's like, no, I'm showing up for you. I know you had a tough day. I got you your favorite meal um or whatever. I was like, is that me sipping over you pining over you being um too emotional or vulnerable? Like, hey, you need to talk like, let's sit down, let's, we can have some ice cream. We can have a glass of wine and let's talk. I was like, oh, that's he's so sensitive. No, I see that my partner is going through something
I'm presenting. I'm giving you that, that space where you can come and lay it on me because you know, but I was like, but I'm still, I'm still a man, you know, I'm still masculine in that, in that sense, if that makes sense. Yeah. I mean, I love that in the, in the, in the words of Jack Nicholson, you can't handle the truth. You know, that's because I think this, I think this is what, what Joshua is saying and I can totally see this. I think a lot.
I mean, again, we're speaking generalities, right? We're not talking about specific women, we're talking about women in general and sort of the expectations when women say that they're looking for a man who to your point is sensitive, but also can be, become a caveman with a, with a club when he needs to be like he can hunt a lion. And at the same time, listen to your, you know, your emotional needs. That is an ideal, right?
That, that you, you might have gotten from movies and rom coms and, and, and, and romantic, you know, novels. But the reality is that even in, uh, emotionally intelligent man, they're not gonna fit that model perfectly because sometimes in real life, it's impossible to go from caveman to, to, to listening to, you know, uh, connecting with you emotionally like that because it doesn't work like that, right?
Sometimes the frequencies are going to be a little bit off and I think a lot of women don't have tolerance for that, right? So you expect you, you, we train men to be a certain way and then you, you have to be able to turn it off also, like, you know, you have to get the nuance, you have to read between the lines and you know what's between the lines, white space for me. You know, if it's, it's single space, a little less white, like if it's double space, there's a lot of white space.
So what are you asking the woman to do? One thing that I think that it's important for women to maybe start to take an account when they're on the apps especially is think about not only what they want in a day in a match because that's one thing, matching and dating two completely different things. So if we're just talking about in a match, sure, you'll have your physical things that you look at. But really let's let's go down to the bio. OK?
If there is a bio which is my pet peeve about men, most of them are like they, they give their statistics and nothing in the about me section. That's what's wrong with men. That's the next episode. Yes. Yeah, but they took one party at um but really read through because this is the beautiful thing about men is we have what I call Amelia Badillo Syndrome. I don't know if you read those books, but she was a maid and whatever you whatever was literally said to her, that's what is done.
Whatever we say we present that we are interested in that we like that. You don't have to try to figure it out. It's not a game. It's, it's literally there. We wrote it in black and white for you to perceive, you don't have to try to guess around it or what does he really mean by that? No, you just have to believe people at where they are. You know, I was like, what you see is what they say. Um, and I feel like that's,
that's the thing that happens. Sometimes we'll be right back after a quick word from our sponsors if you love Korean skincare but don't know what to buy or where to buy it from. Then ally.com is your answer. O Lally curates the best in Korean beauty products from top shelf items to trending new arrivals to my favorite, hard to find in DK beauty brands founded by Sisters Sue and Hera Ola is like getting a recommendation from a good friend who's tried it all and tells you exactly what to buy.
I especially love the double rose Luminizer facial oil which feels so good on my dry reactive skin. And Daniel loved the Neogen Airy Sunscreen which feels just like a light lotion on your face but is packed with sp F 50 get 10% off your first order with the code. I hate dating apps or use the link lolly.com/i hate dating apps. Our sponsor take my face off makes swiping off your makeup just as easy as swiping past a bad profile.
Seriously, the midi from take my face off is this adorable facial mitt that makes skin cleansing faster, easier and more thorough than any other method I've tried, I seriously love this product. Next time you're tempted to grab a face wipe, use a midi instead it's just as fast but it's better for your skin and the planet get free shipping with the discount code dating at take my face off.com. Ok. So, so I'm, I'm trying to be, I'm trying to do the practical application.
Poor drove like he's been like, uh like I know you wanna, I, I know you wanna talk, I, I'll let you get to it. But um the practical application maybe of what you're saying is the women that maybe you match with or that you date are like, well, why are you doing this? Why are you being like that? Why are you playing video games all the time or whatever? And you're like, girl, that's what I wrote on my bio. Like why are you trying to change somebody who already spelled out who they are?
Like you're basically saying women will see something and then just forget about it and then go, why aren't you this other person? Is that kind of what you're saying? Yes, there's a little bit not quite to that extreme, but yes, that's pretty much the point. It's like here are the previews when you get into the movie. Don't be surprised that what you saw in the preview is very similar to, oh, I like that analogy. You, you've got some thoughts on this.
Yeah, for sure. When man and a woman are dating or courting each other. The woman thinks, oh, over time I will change him. And the man, I hope she never changed, both are wrong. Oh, that's a good point. I hope he changes. And the man's like, I hope she never changes. Women are looking for a project. Right? And men are looking for somebody who will compliment them or compliment them. I guess at that point we're very simple creatures. We like Joshua said, that's what I keep telling Gina.
It's like, you know, women overcomplicate men, man. We're pretty simple. We men communicate content whereas women communicate context. Now for us, men, we're way simpler than what women are. And to one of your earlier questions, when Joshua answered the question perfectly is that we men generally have, are more emotionally grounded and have worked on ourselves.
But women on the other hand, unfortunately, have not worked on themselves to the same extent as we men have because we men, we go through our lives getting rejected, we approach women, one woman after another, we get rejected and rejected and rejected hoping that we will find the one that says yes. So those that rejection keeps us grounded and more quote unquote normal than women. Whereas women they already reject tos they keep rejecting, hoping that the right one will come.
So they are up in the air in cloud nine or whatever throughout their lives. So we actually technically and actually realistically men had done more self work knowingly or unknowingly by the time we meet in, you know, adult lives, then why do they still look the way they look on the apps? But this is, but this is, I think this is the point that you're missing because you and I have talked about this a lot.
Uh But it's what Drew is saying you are going through literally hundreds and hundreds of men and you're rejecting 80% of them. If you're an average woman, right? Probably 95% because you have standards, you have standards that you're trying to match men to. And what you saying is because we've been rejected. So our standard is somebody who will say yes to us. It's that simple, but you don't want a girl to say yes to you. If you don't like you,
you ask her, right? So, but but this is the point generally speaking. So again, these are broad, broad strokes, generalities, generally your average man, right? Going through life, you get to a certain point, you've been rejected by hundreds and hundreds of women, right? Like if you're average man, unless you're brad pitt, right?
So for women, though even your average woman with average looks, let's say if there's such a thing, even that, that average woman is not about rejection, she's she sits there and then men come to her and then she has, she might get a lower quality of men than maybe like, you know, a AAA top model, but she's still the reject tour. As I was saying, that informs how you go about this world. Men work themselves.
I am always constantly trying to not by myself, say men, we're trying to impress women and women are just sitting there like not you, not, you, you maybe if I could change you, right? And the thing is on dating apps. If most of the men, they were like, they are like there are a lot of badly behaving men out there and you always complain about the selfie in the bathroom with a six pack and you're like, oh, what a loser. And then you go and there's this guy who's nice.
His profile is great. He's like, oh, but he's chubby. So you want the guy with a six pack with a phd like you want all you want? I do. Yes, I do. I mean reality is a bit skewed. So Gina, let me ask you this. Uh we, it's Friday today at the date of this recording. So a week has gone. How many men do you think have approached you? Just this week alone off the apps in organically just this week in real life. How many men have a good
or bad approach? How many men have approached you just this week? Zero? Like in real life? Zero? Ok. Well, the point I was trying to get at is I also work from home. So Yeah, I mean that, that is a bit of a, I think it's context, right? You're talking about content and context I think, I mean, she's a hard working woman and you're not out there, you're not necessarily out in the world. But I was, I was at the Super Bowl Media party. I met a lot of people there.
Um There were many guys that I thought were really cute there. Not one of them said, hey, I mean, like, you know, a couple of them connected with me on Instagram and everything. But yeah, I, you know, I also um have been told that I'm very intimidating to approach. So, you know, I get that but I'm sorry, the one who's courageous gets rewarded, right? I, I don't know what to say to you. If you're intimidated to ask someone like me out, that's, that's on you, not necessarily on me, right?
Um Because uh I think you just don't know until you go up to a person whether they are available or not. And there's also of course like ways that you could like suss them out, you know, and say something like, oh what you got going on this weekend and if they're like, oh yeah, I'm gonna go get a pedicure and like don't mention a man then you know, maybe you should ask her out. But yeah, it doesn't happen to me in real life. It happens on the apps like I get hundreds of likes a week on the apps.
So, so you mentioned you work from home. But what I was trying to get at is when I speak to my female friends and I asked them this question on average, they'll say 1012 in a week. Like we've got three men on this here. Can any of us? Three men remember 12 times when we approached in on our, in our entire lives? I can't remember 12 times. I've been approached in my entire life by a woman, a woman. So your girlfriends must be strippers because 10 to 12 times, I know we have to make that effort.
Women do not approach men. They would want men to approach the women. So it might signal to try to get the man's attention, but ultimately, they want the man to approach. Well, so, so let me ask you this. Then how do you feel when a woman approaches you and like start sussing you guys out and going? Hey, um what are you doing this weekend? You know, or something?
Are you like? Thank the Lord. This woman is, you know, in present times and taking the initiative or are you kind of like, oh, she must be a pant wearer because she's clearly kind of taken on the masculine role. No, I mean, this age, the answer is no, but maybe when I was in my teens, I would be like, so happy about that. But I've matured. I had relationships. So, if she does it in a nice, subtle feminine way, I'd, I'd be absolutely open to, um, taking the next step forward
with her. It depends on how she does it. But, but is there, is there an exception to that? It sounds like if she's not feminine about it you would not be receptive to that. Is that what I'm hearing? Well, if she comes and bumps and grinds with me straight away, you know, and within the 1st 10 seconds, it's not my type of woman. That's not the type of woman. Yeah, it's Daniels. Send them all to Daniel
and I was gonna say that it's like, it just depends where you're at. Now you mentioned used a term that may have turned some men off a pant wearer. I don't think that's necessarily um an adjective that I would wear. Um associate like if you, if, if anybody, man or woman sees something that they're into, I don't think there's anything wrong with a woman coming up to me and be like, hey, I noticed you from across the bar and we strike up conversation and then she asked because
men like to be flattered too. Let's get this stereotype out of the way. Just we, we have ego. We like it to be stroked like a, like a cat sometimes. OK. Yeah, I look good. You know, this is, this is my good suit I'm wearing. I'm wearing what I like. I feel confident. Thank you. And now sure from there, I might take over and ask her out. Um But that's part of the game too, is women have to sometimes be subtle and make it think, make men think it's their idea that they're asking them out.
But really, we know we know that it was their idea. Um But, you know, also men sometimes, like I said, uh they struggle with being able to approach a woman that they have put on a pedestal that they think, you know. So I feel like that's an issue, but I was like, I don't think it's wrong for either or to do the initiating. Um You know, because nobody wants to end up single and alone. And I think that um women sometimes think like, oh, like I have to make an effort.
Yes. If, because men were practical, we're thinking long term. Um And I think how I meet you is you're not going to get quote unquote better. Uh After time is like, if you don't want to make an effort now, I don't think after five years of being together, you're like, I'm gonna want to make an effort now. It's, it only goes downhill from the courtship phase. So I was like, I love when a woman takes charge like that because that shows, hey, you are willing to put in the effort.
I'm gonna match you. I'm gonna meet you and we're gonna, we're gonna go stride in stride. Ok. I'm not gonna be the one carrying this relationship for the next 2030 years or however long we're together. Ok. Well, so, all right. So I have some very, very solid recommendations on how to get a woman to fall in love with you. Like I think the formula is pretty simple. Like it's literally like five steps before I go there and maybe I'll save that for the men. The problem.
I just want, I just want to point something out. It's really simple guys. There are five steps to this. Go ahead. Give me the five steps. I'm gonna give you the five step. You know what's simple? One step, but go ahead. Five step. Go ahead. OK, maybe 3 to 5 steps. I don't know. I, I was kind of quickly counting in my head. Um But what are the steps? So that's a t to say what is, what are the steps that you think?
You know, if women are the problem on the apps and you know, clearly they are um What are the things that you would say are easy things for women to do to not be a problem. I mean, per drove one is don't lie about your freaking face, don't lie about your weight. Don't try to make yourself look a certain way on the apps because obviously when you meet them in person, you're not gonna look like that and then that's just gonna be like a false start to the relationship.
Totally get you totally goes both ways. The second thing I heard was, um, you know, don't jump down somebody's throat because they asked you an innocent question. You know, a lot of women overthink things. That is true. Some men I know overthink things. Um I've been chewed out just because, like I, I told somebody who is Latino that I had matched with. Oh, you know, I really like this whatever Mexican tradition and he totally took that and said, I'm sorry, are you Mexican?
Are you trying to tell me? Like, and I'm like, whoa, I was just saying, I like that, you know, and he was just like unmatched. So it doesn't happen as frequently with men, but it obviously does happen with men as well. So like, yeah, give the man the benefit of the doubt. Don't like immediately assume that he's insinuating something and then, and then maybe what I heard from Joshua was a, a man can be emotionally intelligent. Maybe he's showing it to you. You're just not interpreting it as that.
Now that to me goes to love languages, right? If I'm struggling and somebody's just like, hey, let me, let me get, let me make you some food. Now, that's a service oriented man, right? He's showing his love through service and, and maybe the woman's love language is I just need you to sit down and listen to me, you know, so that's just where like love languages don't matter. Personally. I'm, I'm, I'm a service kind of oriented person too.
So like, if I'm having a bad day and somebody's like, babe, sit down, I'm gonna make you some, you know, curry or whatever. I'm just like, I love you, you know. So it, it depends on where you are with love languages. So I've spelled a couple of things that I've deline delineated from our conversation. Are there more? Are there like, hey, number one, don't do this. Number two, we hate it when you do that, you know. Um I'm gonna hop on real quick.
My first, I think the first biggest thing that I would wish women do more just take a chance. Um We talked about how um what is it? 20% of all women are saying no to 80% of men. I was like if, if anybody here has seen any sports or just anything, you know, sometimes the person who doesn't look the most athletic will sometimes surprise you and be your best scorer that can apply to any field. But when you're swiping left saying no to all these people, I always encourage
my clients and I do it myself. I, I take my own word. Somebody who I'm not really sure on, I'll say yes, I will go on that date. Sure. It might take 45 minutes to an hour of my time, but you never know what could come out of that, you know. So, taking a chance on something you're not too sure of really. It, you know, really could be in your, in your favor, you know, it's not like you're trying to find your soulmate or anything. So, you know.
Ok, now, real, real quickly, what I have to say about that is sorry, Joshua, I, I don't mean to be like the naysayer and like, yes. But, um, I'll say yes and uh women get hundreds of, of likes, right? We get uh a lot of times thousands of likes. So it's, it's very difficult to take a chance when that chance represents literally like 8000 guys. So
that's what I'd have to say to that. But yes. So one actually can I ask you a question on that point when you get the 8000, the, the, the several likes that you get, what is your vetting process? Because what is the, what is like, I think what Joshua is saying when you take a chance is to maybe change your filter to take a chance with men that you would normally wouldn't because of the filters that you have in place.
Not, not necessarily on the app, but because you have and I know you do, you have a lot of check boxes like the guy's gotta be this like crap and I still get, but that's not get a chance. But that's what he's saying. It's like you get whatever however you get eight or 8000, right? And you rejecting 80% of them. Yeah. So maybe don't reject the ones that you would normally reject and give them a chance.
I do have to say to that point when I first started on bumble in like late summer 2022 is when I, when I first joined and in the beginning I didn't know what I was doing. So I, I like, you know, when you first get on the apps and your likes are like, just 100 or, you know, whatever and you're just like, oh, he, he's cute. Oh, he looks nice. Hey, you know, I, I might go for him. I was letting so many people in and, you know, I, I was wide
eyed and open minded and excited, right? As you are when you are new on the apps and those were some of my best dates. I have to say it and, and it wasn't until like a year later when, you know, my likes just, I don't even know how to get rid of them. I don't even know how to like, you know, like swipe up, like double drag all the way up to like just, you know, get, get, get me back to like a, 100 or so again because then my mind wouldn't just be like,
uh, like, just overwhelmed. Um But in the now I'm, I, I have become a little jaded where I'm like, No. Uh, no, no. You know, and I, I'm sorry, I know that's hard to hear and I, I sound like the problem. Um, but it, when you're overwhelmed you do that right. You literally swipe left because you're like that hair. I, I just can't, you know, but in the beginning of my journey when, you know, my, my plate seemed a little more manageable.
I, I was taking a chance and I have to say I really enjoyed it. I went out with people that I never thought I would ever go out with. Right? And, and it was really refreshing. So thank you for that point. And that's a problem real quick. That's a problem with dating apps to, you know, 11 problem with dating apps is, is the sheer volume, right? Because it gives you this impression that you have all these choices, but you really don't, right.
8000 men that you get matched with, you know, regardless of your criteria, most of the men are not going to be a good match for you anyway. And they're also playing the numbers game like they're liking everybody because again, as we were saying earlier, men get rejected more often. So men play this number games where they were like 90% of the women. Like I, I had a friend who early on on the dating apps, he actually made it a point of liking like 100 women.
Like he just actually made a point of taking the time and swiping right on 100 women because for him, it was like, it doesn't even matter what the woman looks like because for him, it was like, I just need to get to a number where somebody responds to me. Right. And then I'm gonna start a conversation. So that's kind of interesting. But so do, do you have any uh pointers for, for my friend Gina here and, and women in general?
I would say, um just pay backing off a little bit of the previous point in terms of, you know, you're overwhelmed with all these matches or these potential men saying yes, I'd say to women establish your values. So take some time, establish what your values are and then through these potential matches via that lens and obviously you can't see the values on the dating apps, but when you do shortlist them and you had that first screening call before you meet the man, then you sort of can suss out.
But it's very important to suss out sorry to, to establish your values. And it's not a day long process. It might take weeks or months because you're constantly refining them. But that's really the lens you should be applying. And if I could add one more thing, which I've learned over the years, especially now that I'm older, a big advice to women is to hold out, like don't accept the kiss or go into the bed with a man too soon.
What dating apps has done is what are you trying to, are you trying to, are you trying to sabotage all the guys? All the women are like all the like, have you Drew? I'm also trying to help the men get right women here. Thank you. We're just kidding here. But you right. But, but the reason I'm saying that the dating app culture, it made the hookup culture has really uh worse. It's become so easy to sleep around now.
So, uh my advice to women listening is that uh make it a bit harder for men because if you go, if you allow the kids too soon or if you go to bed too soon, you're starting to base that relationship based on the, the artificial high on Dopamine and Oxytocin and you're constantly chasing that. You're not chasing the man, you're chasing that Oxytocin or dopamine hit and that's just a temporary hit. So you like the man, you wanna go see him again, but you're actually chasing that dopamine hit.
So, rather than doing that straight away, just holding off a little bit, that's when you sort of get to the surface and deeper down and get to know the man and he will get to know you as well. And we men respect women, make it a bit harder for us to sleep with them. You know, the, this podcast is called, I hate dating apps. Um So I think dating apps are a tool. They're not good or bad. But I think the dynamics of dating apps makes it harder for real people.
Like, re like, because I run into real people all the time. Like we have two real, you know, get real people here as guests, real guys, real men. But in the dating apps, um it, it kind of twists that reality, right? Because there's a lot of hookup culture. But if you're not looking for hook up and you and it's like going to a bar, uh a meat market bar and expecting to find the love of your life, right?
Because most of the people there are looking for a hook up and you go in and then you are frustrated because the guy is coming and grind like the woman is coming grinding on you right off the bat or the guy is coming really strong on you and you're like, what the fuck is going on in this world. But it's because you are in that environment now, is it, is it possible that you will find somebody in that bar who is a, a real person or is acting like a real person?
The chances are low but you can find it. So I think I just thought of something in terms of, you know, like the women who are getting the 8000 matches. You're looking that as a math problem trying to figure out how do I go through this 8000 people and try to find the one in that 8000. That is right for me, maybe the math is different. Maybe. Instead of thinking about the 8000, like Dr said, maybe. And Joshua said this too, like read the profiles, who cares if it's eight or 8000?
Because you can't, that's why you don't have time. But in your life change, that change instead of because you can either, let's say if you, if you can take, I have 8000 to go through. So if I spend a second in each, I can go through 8000 or I can spend an hour on each. Right. But I am going to vet the 8000.
Even if the, even if the inbox keeps getting bigger and bigger, if you change your, your, your, your vetting process instead of, I need to go through 8000 because one of them might be middle of my life. Maybe the way to find the love of your life is not to go through the 8000 as quickly as you can, but actually go through each one of them and give them the proper vetting and then you might go through 50 of them and find the right person. Yeah. No, for sure.
And I mean, you know, when I'm swiping, I usually within like, the first couple of screens will go, oh, I like this person and then, you know, because I pay for the app and I can see my likes the moment I swipe right. I'm able to match with them right away.
Um, and, you know, I, I have preferences for certain apps but the ones that give me the thousands of matches, it might be because I was traveling and I happened to open up my app and then now every, you know, eligible man in that city that happens to like me is plenty of fish. Yeah, yeah. Um So I, I like the ones that cap it. Like I've noticed recently bumble um caps at like I think 850. I'm so sorry. I don't mean to like brag II, I seriously don't wanna like give out my number.
It's just because I, I know that a lot of women it, it, it's not the same for everybody and I know that men, you know, are like, oh what the, what the fuck. Um But I, I've noticed that bumble uh for the past couple of weeks has capped me at 850. So I don't know whether that's a new algorithm or, or whatever, but I was just like, I actually appreciate that.
Of course, by the time I go through everything and maybe I do get through that, I mean, one can hope um then that person has been waiting for like, you know, six months and they probably moved on. This is another reason why I hate dating apps just like, but you said something interesting. The algorithm, I think we're all being influenced by the algorithm. It's the, and again, we said this in previous podcasts, dating apps are not designed to help you find love, right?
Dating apps are designed for you, for you to engage in the dating apps because that's how, I mean, these are businesses, how they make money. It's so hard, so hard, it's hard for men and it's hard for women. It is hard for everybody. Harder for men. I would say just because of the matches. But I think it's, I don't know if it's harder.
I think it's hard in different ways, but the algorithm definitely uh instead of being sort of passive about the algorithm again, I, I don't have anything against dating apps in the sense that it's a tool, but I think it's about how you use it. Don't let the tool use, you use the tool, right? Amen. Um You guys didn't bring up one point and I know we gotta wrap up but um you guys didn't bring up a point that I thought you guys were gonna bring up, which is the gold digger. You know,
I gotta pay for everything. I'm, I'm searching for my soul mate, you know, $90 at a time. Um I, I am surprised that that's not a gripe that you guys have brought up, so it's not a gripe or you just didn't get that you want to avoid, in my opinion. Oh, ok. The vetting process um when I, if you don't have a bio or I put you in the spam category because I think anybody who gives off the gold digger vibes via bio or pictures, it's automatic. No, thank you.
So I was like, I really don't have to deal with that. Um If, if you're really screening through because I was like, I like steak. I don't, I don't need a, you know, a little cheeseburger girlfriend. I was like, I need a woman of substance. So I take my time and like dad, he was saying I was like, I'd rather spend 5, 10 minutes going through each profile and maybe going through 10 in a day than to be like 100 150. You know, I'm just, I can't remember them.
I was like, I like to remember who I've gone through because a the algorithm is probably going to put them in front of me again. I would be like, mm Sarah Beth Joe, I already know that's a no, no, Sarah Beth Joe. Sarah Beth, you have three first names. That's right. I, I agree. I mean, uh gold diggers are a problem. I avoid them at all costs and you have a screening process or vetting process over the phone.
But also if you do, if you still don't know whether she's a gold digger and if you meet her on a date, I advise men to start off with a drink and a first or second drink. You know, you need to be brave enough to walk away before you go to that reach dinner. And if the date is going well, by all means, take her out for dinner, but you should be able to say no if you have to by the end of the second drink. So, but as a gentleman, you should pay for the first drink, for sure.
Well, hey, we got some agreement on that one. You guys need to listen to my Raz episode, the very first episode of this podcast. Because yeah, see, these are gentlemen also also, you know, I think uh Joshua might be a little younger, but I think uh uh we are, I'm a Gen Xer. You're a Gen Xer. I think Dr is a Gen Xer as well. I think you and I talked about this post baby boomers. A Gen Xers are sort of this transition, you know, generation.
So we're at this inflection point where culture is changing, everything is changing. I mean, we are, we live the the pre internet to post internet world and our next generation, the millennials live in internet world where they don't know a world without social media without dating apps, right? So I think it informs our values. I also I told you this like I am just, it's just ingrained in me. If I go on a date, I'm going to pay for that first date. This is what a gentleman does.
But I think that's also the disconnect. I think those values are changing in the world. Not, I'm not saying that we need to change our values to adapt to the world because it can go both ways and values are always changing. But you should need, you still need to stay true to what your values are. Ok. Well, then, so real quick, Joshua and Dr second date who pays it? Depends on who organized the date. But uh I'm happy to pay for the second day if I'm the one organizing it.
But when I know I'm with a classy woman, she'll say you pay for the first one. Let me get this one. That's what I know as a classy woman. Yes, I agree. And sometimes it's not even about who actually pays. It's about like I said, we, we all love the courting game. I was like, even just the offer or I was like, you know what, here you pay, I'll leave the tip or I'll get the appetite or the cocktails before just effort showing the effort. I was like, I don't mind spending
50 100 whatever the bill is. I'm not. If on a person that's quality or I'm learning that a person wasn't quality. That's just my view point. I was like, it took me $50 to learn that this person wasn't for me. I don't think that's a loss and you're still a gentleman about it. And I always offer to pay for the second that show that you consider it
right? It, it, it shows that you are not taking the other person for granted, like women who go on dates and expect, well, you the man you should always pay for. And then if you say, do you like to cook? What you expect me to cook? No, when are we going out for steak? What kind of a Neanderthal are you? You should pay for everything and you should also protect me from the lions and you should do this. You should do that. So we want a Neanderthal in a top hat and a tux.
Well, this is so fun. Thank you guys so much. You guys were really gentlemanly about it. I know I've used that term a lot, but seriously, I thought I was gonna be like, you know, where's my machete? Where's my knife? I'm just gonna like protect the, the, you know, womanhood over here, but I didn't and I, I find everything that you said extremely reasonable. So if nothing else, I think we made the point that men are not the problem. Oh, that's the next episode. Yeah. Thank you so much. You guys.
It was a pleasure having you. All right. Well, this has been another great episode of, I hate dating apps. Can't love with them and can't love without them. See you next time. I hate dating. Hey, app, Daters and haters. Tell us your dating app experience and we just might bring you on as a guest for future episodes. Head to I hate dating apps.com and click on the big yellow. Tell us your story button. You can't miss it. We've got a lot of fun content on our social channels.
So please follow us at, I hate dating apps on Facebook, tiktok and youtube and on Instagram. We're at, I hate dating apps pod and don't forget to like and subscribe wherever you're listening to this podcast.