The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective sy a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome back to part two of my chat with Lucas Williams. In part one, we learned about Lucas rough upbringing that led to substance abuse, crime, and lengthy terms in prison. Sadly, that's the path that's followed too many times by a
young young people, particularly young Indigenous men. In part two, we're going to talk about what Lucas is doing now to break the cycle. Lucas, welcome back. Thanks Gay, Well, we gave you all the heavy stuff in part one and dissected your life, and thanks for being so open and honest about what's happened. I want to just read out a quote. I was doing the research for the podcast and looking at things you had said and done and been quoted on. I just read this quote out.
The work that I do aims to put an end to racism in Australia and put symphasis on healing. If we do not heal, then the past simply repeats itself and the next generation is stuck in another cycle of trauma. Breaking the cycle takes work, Healing takes time and effort, and I want to be there to be a guide and a mentor to those who need a helping hand. After all, I was in the same boat twelve years ago, so I understand the real lived experiences that people had suffered.
They're pretty lofty goals and that's a pretty tough, tough task. Is this the type of thing that you're doing now? What you want to achieve with the work that you're doing now?
Yeah, Look, it definitely is the work I want to achieve, and it is the work I'm doing now. I would like to see a country where we have all cultures come together, no matter the story and the history. But to do that, we have to really sit in the depth of some of the storytelling and their history so healing can take place. I'm a big believer that healing can't take place unless an individual has an opportunity to
tell the story. And for First Nations people in this particular instance, with that quote, I think we need to have a space whether the real deep stories come out. And what I see is that people don't want to hear those stories because they're quite deep and they're painful. But if we can create a society that can actually create safety to hear those stories, we're going to see healing on great deep levels. And that's my mission is to do those things for all people.
Well, I think it's a very worthwhile mission, and that I know it's not just words. You're actually doing stuff to achieve what you're setting out to achieve. So let's talk about your release from prison. You had your six years, you went out, you ended up back in eighteen months, and you've come out talkers about who you were at that particular point in time.
When I got out of jail, I was a person that I didn't know where I was going. And again I hit a bit of a spiral for a year or two on the drugs in our cohol. And then some not so good things happen around me. Some people were murdered and different things like that, and I switched. I changed, and at that moment I was taken in by my mother.
And this was this was when sorry two thousand.
Two thousand, so December twenty eleven.
Okay, and knew were how old?
Roughly twenty eight? Okay, twenty eight so I was twenty eight years old. I just spent basically from the age of twelve through to twenty eight in chaos. And it was not long after that. It was in January twenty twelve that my mother said, I want to take you into Battle on a tafe in New South Wales and
enroll you into a cert for in drug and alcohol. See, my mother was one of the first aberiginal tri and ladies in Australia to do a cert for that was ever introduced to Australia back in the ninety sevens or whatever. So she wanted me to follow that path. So she goes, she takes me into Battle on a tape and I signed into a cert for and so that was the first introduction basically to education really, despite the ones that
I had been through in jail. It was the first introduction into an academic world that I knew nothing about, so much that I actually failed my first assessment because I played arisen. I copied people's work. I didn't know what was about.
It would have been intimidating, confusing. Yeah, source your quotes and do this. What's this all about? It's a completely foreign worll too.
Yeah, definitely it was. You know that the teachers I'm hearing, I'm hearing teachers talk about things from an academic lens that I had no idea about. You know, I couldn't I couldn't write one hundred words, and so I was very vulnerable because I had to. It was also it was also a course where it was academic, but yet it was telling your story also, and so this was, you know, some of the first times that I ever
told stories. And I'm in a classroom of thirty And I've always been quite truthful and open about my story because I feel like that's the way to heal. But here I am telling the stories that made people kind of jewels at the ground because they didn't know how
to deal with it in the room. And that's kind of what also made me think, you know, I want to start to learn how we create safe places so everybody in the room can actually hear stories, how they can share their stories when they hear stories.
So these are people that had an experience the world you've experience, and you're telling your story and that's almost too confronting them. They're looking at you differently, and yeah.
Yeah, that's right. And these are people, and look, I hold great respect for those people, but these are people that's going into the industry to help people like me. It's only that I had lived experience in the room, and you know, many people didn't, not on the level that I probably did. They probably had lived experience in
many other areas. And I remember going through the journey when I tried to heal, you know, the mental health services and the hospitals used to kind of send me out the door because I didn't know how to help me and I wanted to. And I want to make a difference in that space. Is that we need people that can actually hear the stories of deep trauma. And if we don't have those people. We're going to have a generation that repeats that trauma outputs to society.
Okay, so you've enrolled, and how did that change. Was there a turning point where you started to feel comfortable and yeah, I can actually do this or I'm getting where they're coming from.
Yeah, that was. It was a lady by the name of Jenis. She was one of my teachers, and a lady by the neigh of Sue, and they were my two first teachers. But I got a ninety percent in my first assessment. I failed the first one, but then when I went back and done and I got ninety percent. That was the first assessment I've ever passed them life, you know, out of primary school, high school. So I didn't believe it to start with because I didn't think it was possible. But then I knew that I could
do something different and I went on and smashed that out. It. It took me twelve months. I got all high kind of marks for all my assessments, and one of the biggest ones that I was the highest thing was actually communication and I never knew that, you know, and I thought I was I thought I was a shit communicator.
Well, I'm sitting here and you're a very good communicator. But that's funny, and you're like, your self esteem must improve so much like doing that. Okay, so I'm not worthless, so I've got something to say and do.
Yeah, that's exactly right. And it was in that also that moment that people in the room that stayed on to do the course, as in other students, when I started to tell my story, they were really inspired. You know, by six months into the course, they used to really love me, kind of checking in their mornings or you know, whenever it might be because I bring something new or
a journey that I just moved through. And so and I started to learn not only am I good at some of the academic stuff, I'm also good at lived experience and sharing stories to help people with inspiration. And so I learned quite quick that I was once a good drug dealer, I was once a good criminal, but now I can be a really good person in this field. And that's what really inspired me to transform the skills into a different set of kind of work areas, which
was the trauma reform lens. And that's where I've used the not so good experiences from the old life and put it to practice in my healthy life.
Well something's worked. And in two thousand and later and you rewarded the Northern Territories Government Aboriginal Services Remote Worker of the Year.
Tell us about that, So I was life went on. I went on to do diplomas, degrees, masters, now into PhD. And in twenty eighteen I got.
Sorry, just break that down. So it's all a matter of fact, but you're saying the very first one that you were enrolled in you were so far out of your depth. What have you there?
So I went from my search for I went into a double diploma a year later. That was again that was more academic, so it was more writing, more research. But again I loved it. It was it was like it was like a it was like a fix, you know. I was learning something deep for the body. So I achieved that. It was it was. It was a journey, but I achieved it. And then I went to after I finished that, I had never thought in a million years I would have a diploma. That was back in
twenty thirteen. And then I went to Woongoan University and I'd done a degree in Indigenous Trauma and Recovery Practices that was twenty sixteen, and then at that moment, I thought, Wow, there's just no other nowhere else I could go here. But then I went on to do a master's. I'd had a master's in Indigenous health and I finished that got high marks, and then I was considered an academic then. And when I say that, I still feel a bit with you know, I'm thinking academic. I'm an ex criminal.
You know, I'm not an academic, but I that's what I've become. So I'm quite proud to share that, you know, to share that I'm now an academic. And then I've gone on now to enter into a PhD. So I'm doing a PhD around healing using traditional healing circles and how that improves the social emotional being for First Nations people. Okay, but not only that, how we create a service where the nation has a tool to use with our people. So that's what it's all about.
Well, we'll break that down and delve into that, but I just want to ask a question that, Yeah, your mum took you in in two thousand of December twenty eleventh, and she still had some trust in you. How proud was your mum and dad, when you've got to this stage where you're graduating and the master's degrees.
Yeah, look, they I'm the first family member in my family of you know, six hundred just from my grandmother's line that went on to do a master's and into a PhD. So no one's ever graduated in this space. So they're pretty proud. They're pretty proud to have, you know, a son that they never thought would come out of the criminal world and now they feel like it's part of their win, you know that they're proud to talk
about it. So wherever they go, you know, if my name gets mentioned, they're like, yeah, that's my son.
Before they might have been shame.
They were shame. You know, I put them through a lot of shame when I was a young fellow, and I might didn't give a shit at the time, but I was very selfish. Where now they can be proud.
Did you have family at the graduation?
I actually didn't go to my graduation because I was actually in community doing work and at the time I thought that was more important.
That says a lot about the person you have become.
Yeah, yeah, it was more important. It was I was in community doing work around suicide which is which is the which is linked to the two thousand and eight and awards.
So yeah, so describe us white city dwellers down here. When you talk going into community in the Northern Territory, what are we looking at? What the people realize?
So we're going into a community where firstly language for local mob, well English is like maybe six language. Yeah, sitting with old people that I call so I call go into community Bush University. Some of the old people that I've sat without on community are some of the most smartest people I've ever sat with. And they come across to me like a professor in UNI, you know. So we're firstly, you know, we've got to move in
community in a way that's safe. But we're faced with trauma beyond our imagination in my experience, And when we go in and we start to actually sit, like I said, if we create safe enough places, we're gonna hear some of the stories. Example, ynd me, you know in the Connstant massacres, when one went out to do the work out there, we went out onto country, we went back to the Connaistant massacres and we sat down for days and told them stories. But these are the stories that
I guess the rest of Australia. I think, you know, as in like the cities they may not know about. And it's not until you go and sit down and hear those stories that you get to grasp the depth of trauma and why maybe you know that it might be so hard to live in remote because of those reasons and why there's needed. You know, there's more resources needed, there's more understanding needed, there's more trauma and form skilled workers needed. So yeah, it's it's it can be, it
can be. It can be a hard journey if someone doesn't know how to navigator.
But paying a picture of sitting down and telling telling stories. But describe that to us.
I might use yams as a as a story. Okay, So at the time, and again I just want a name that I got permission from the family to speak about this story. So at the time that Coleman J. Walker had been shot, I got a phone call about two days later and said, look, would you come out into Unimo because no one was allowed to come and go at that time. Luckily enough, I was knowing in other communities and so they gave me a call to
go out and sit with the community. So I went out in the community and I took about ten or fifteen men out onto country. And this is keeping in mind just like a week or so just after the shooting, and when we sat down on country, we went out and the first thing we started to talk about was obviously the shooting and the amount of pain that come from that conversation was it went straight to the massacres
and the stories was so in depth. It was the fear that the men now in the community feared that they might be next in the firing line. And then you really will it was real.
Can you just link the massacres that you talk about what the history of that is? Sure so people understand and how that history is carried through and.
Through to the And that's a good point, Gary, is the Connist the massacres, you know, happened one hundred or so years ago and it was around you know. I won't share deeply about the story. It's not my story to share, but I share the knowledge that I have, and it was around you know. It was a bunch of police officers that coming on horseback and shot a
lot of people out at Conniste. Massac massacre out at Conniston, which is fifty k from Mu basically Mu really and so they rode through and they shot you know, women, children and men. And so now we come to two thousand, you know, two thousand and eighty nine and at the time, and we go out on country and we start to talk about the shooting of common Jay, that shooting at that time of common Jay. When we went out on country,
it was lingering. But the pain of Coniston massacre matched and linked to that event because they were very similar. Not only you know, did we think the shootings were finished at that moment. What was named is that the vuneage just also just begun again. And the fear within the young men at that time, they were quite worried to actually walk around the community because they weren't sure if they were actually next. You know, there was a
deep fear there. And for the old men that held the stories of Coniston, the fear was very real because they've heard the stories directly from the family members that were actually linked to Coniston. So it's not like it was, you know, a million years old, this was very recently. It was near so and you've got to hold those stories with great care, and you've got to listen deeply and it's real, you know, it's really real. And the sit with some of the young men and the uncles
and hear those stories. I could, I could, I could see the realness and the pain that sat inside them. And then we had workshops where all the services would come together, and I remember in those workshops we had some unfortunately non indigenous workers. When you've got a room full of fifteen Yindimou mob say why would you you know, why would you think that people are going to be shot in this community? And so like it was the
whole room would go silent, you know. And I remember in that moment, like the community just looked around and was like, well, actually, we've just had a young person shot in this community and we're living on we're living on grounds or on country where the colors of the Massaic took place. So we had we had to map through that to bring some understanding for some of the service providers that well, individuals. I should say that pushed back on some of that converse.
See it's interesting talking about it because I do understand the world for a variety of reasons, but they also understand very much on my white man and when I'm working Indigenous communities that I'm trying to be sensitive, but sometimes you come in there and it's quank. You've just missed the point somewhere. And I know when I did work in the Bearable community, elders that pulled me aside, like grow that big time when I first came in. You're a white man, you're a cop. Why would we
trust you? And that just h I had to learn, and I was fortunate that some of the elders pulled me aside and said, hey, just try it this way and the difference it makes. But I think there's just that misunderstanding. And you would agree. I'm sure that ignorance causes problems. If people are ignorant to things, that's where where things break down.
Yeah, definitely. Look, I think you're spot on. And I also see it as a few different kind of scenarios, Like you have people that made misunderstand and then be some ignorance, but they're willing to learn. And then you have people that come in that come with the same kind of understanding misunderstanding, but yet there's this embedded racism
that comes. So there's two different lenses. And when that other person comes in that has got that deep racis and we feel it and we know actually this this person is coming in with some deepness that doesn't fit this kind of this scene, and so it's not long before they've actually marched out a community compared to someone that might be non indigenous and comes in may not be fully accustomed to everything, or might not understand everything,
but they're willing to actually hear and listen and take on different stuff. And those are the people that make a big difference for First Nation's mob, you know, that are willing to listen and hear and speak and you know, and sit and listen to the elders and be directed that way.
I think some people come in with an unconscious bias, which is almost as ignorance, where they think they're saying the same thing or saying the right thing, but they're showing their biases and the way they think by the comments that they're making. It is a delicate area. But I'm interested in hearing it from a black fellow's side and saying from a white fella. Sometimes it's scary. You go in there and you think, okay, I want to be appropriate. I'll reference one point because I think this
is interesting. I've probably talked about it before, but it was significant with the Bearable community. When I first became friendly, we've started working with them like family. Now I feel part of the mob. They said, why doesn't the commissioner come up and apologize? If three kids have been murdered, they've been a failed investigation, all sorts of things that had occurred because of it, Why can't the boss man come over and say sorry? And mister SKIPPIONI was the
commissioner at the time. I remember going to his office and he was getting advised by all the people around him, and he was listening, and it could see him getting confused, more and more confused, and it was becoming more and more complicated. He basically said, Gary, what should I do when I go there? If I go there? And I said, go there and treat them like you treat your own familyircumstances.
And he ended up coming up and addressing the families and saying that we're sorry, we got it wrong, we could have done it better. And it was so powerful to the community. They still haven't got justice and they're still fighting for justice, but just someone to come up there. And there were little things like he was going to land the police helicopter near the area where the meeting was and we pointed out to him it might be a good look when the big boss man comes down
in the helicopter, so maybe driving. But I found that good that something like that happened. But yeah, it's all about this miscommunication and overcoming these and that's why I'm really interested in the work that you're doing, that you're trying to break down those barriers.
A nineteen year old man has been shot dead by police in a remote Northern Territory community. Northern Territory police officer Zachary Rolf has been acquitted of all.
Charges over the fatal shooting of Kuma Jal in twenty nineteen. Going into the community two days after that shooting, it was volatile. It was made national news. There was outrage and there was a lot of things happening there. There was a lot of pressure going in there. How does it feel? What could you feel the tension in the community.
I could feel. I wouldn't say at tension, I'd feel this. I'd say the sadness I didn't feel. I'd never feel when I go into community, someone else might feel a tension, but I definitely feel the depth of trauma in the community rather than the tension. And that took me a couple That took me a couple of days to actually start to make sense of it. I knew that I'd stepped into Yindhu and other places that I go, you know, and it's always quite vibrant, and but this time I
could feel the sadness. I knew that there was a lot of sorrow. Obviously we knew, you know, just spend a shooting. But I had to actually go, how am I going to move in this space? You know, I don't want to make a mistake. Even though I am a blackfellow, I can still make mistakes. So I had to be respectful and I had to And the first thing I could think about is I had to just move and just listen deeply. I had to practice everything that I've been preaching to every other service that I
work with. I was the one that had to do this now, and that's what I did for the last you know, up until today. Even I actually literally spoke with common Jay's family two days ago to let them know what was coming on here to speak with you, and they gave me their blessing to speak about different things.
Okay, and that was out of respect. That was out of respect understanding. But because it's those little things, showing that respect makes it makes a big difference.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Yeah, Yeah, the relationship between police and you can talk in a general sense, or you can talk that community between police and indigenous community. So how would you describe describe you talking in general or you talk let's talk the community first up and then in general.
Look, right now, I'm not sure, and again I wouldn't want to cross boundaries and trying to portray what I think. But I know at the time, you know, that was at the time that the shooting took place, and then at the time that the trial was on, I was contracted to go and sit with the community for that six weeks to sit with community do healing stuff. And at that time I remember that the community had said to the police, if you want to come and speak
to us, you put your guns up. And at that time, the police put their guns up and they left them in the station and they would come down and then they would have a meeting with community and they would whatever, you know, there'd be conversations. Put it that way. And then so at that time, there was a respect happening, but again there was still I know, even me as an outsider, there wasn't a trust there.
You know.
I was like, I'm not just not sure about what's happening here. Community has been hurt so much through this experience that how do you trust or how are you sure with some of the stuff that's happened in Australia From a government government perspective, how can you be sure that what the people that are showing up here are coming with true intent? That was my perspective. That doesn't mean that was the perspective of community, but I think that I think that we all had that kind of feeling.
But again, there was there was a respect where the police would turn up and have conversations. And again it's not my thing to talk about that. I don't want to disrespect community and pretend like I know what was going on there. That's that's probably more for community to speak about. But yeah, look, I do know that at the time, some of the elders would say that, you know, there was some old police officers that come back to
work in the community and they respected them. They said that that person's okay, you know, we're okay to have her here. I remember that there's a particularity.
So yeah, it's interesting you talk about the community want certain police back. I know, the bearable mob one of the Lulu She made a comment to me once because they rotate police through the stations and the invariably it's a two year tenure or three year tenure, and she goes, they send us here, these new guys, and it takes us two years to train them, and then they get rotated out. And I think, yeah, there's some really value if you line up police that match the community the
community like, and if they can stay there forever. I don't think it. Don't think it's a bad thing for sure. I just think if people it takes a while for everyone to learn their place and learn how to communicate, and so I can see some benefits there. I had Jaron a badge at one of our early guests on the podcast, and we've become good friends. She was in
the police. She grew up in Redfern, in the block during the volatile times, and she joined the police because she wanted to make a difference, because she saw how her family were treated by police growing up in the block.
She made the comment and that how beneficial it would be if the police that are working in country towns, where you get some city cops coming up into a country town, if it's a high Indigenous population, let them go out on country for a week with the elders and just get a feel of what this is all about. And it wouldn't be a big impost on the police. Just say, okay, your first week there are you going out on country?
Yeah?
For a week? What do you think of an idea like that?
Look, I think when you tell that that way, what I call and what MOB about Central way and top end waste would say is that it's been done right way. It's been done in a way that's done in First Nations way, in MOB way, and anyone that goes out
into communities this so often. When I brung together the fifty seven communities and UNIMUB at that time back in twenty nineteen, I think it was we had a room of about fifty people, all service providers, and those service providers there was half of those that didn't know each other and they're working in a community for the last eighteen months together, but yet they didn't know each other,
and they didn't know some of the key elders. And so one of the things that I quite often talk about when we go into communities and remote communities is actually everybody that comes in the community need to do a cultural awareness introduction community way, and that means going out on country and learning some of the sacred spaces
and spots of that community. The sacred story is the history of the community, because there's much more likely to be an understanding of what's took place on them lands. But too often you know that doesn't happen. But if it was to happen, there'd be a difference.
I think I think there'd be And I can look at it from a police officer's point of view that it took me a long time to understand the Bearable community because they showed me the time, they had the patience with me. But doing something like that, I think it would potentially break down barriers. I want to see the communication between different different groups. So with that community, we've gone a long way from talking about your award.
Let's bring your award back. That's the type of work that you were doing when you got the award in two thousand and eight.
Well, that was one of them that this award here in twenty eight een was for another community. I've got a phone call there had been a couple of silicides and that asks if I'd come and work with the men in the community. This is one in a community in central Australia, and it earned up staying there for two years and we built one of the strongest men's groups in the territory and you know, sixty seventy men
would come along every fortnight. The first time I ever run it, there was one person that come and it was a non Indigenous teacher and I thought to myself, Oh my god, you know, I ain't going to be able to pull this off. But two years later it was one of the most powerful groups in the territory. And we really got to talk about the impacts of those suicides on the community because we've seen a lot
of copycat and happened happening after those two sulicides. You had family members trying to take their lives, and you know, there was times where I was showing up each weekly around one or two potential silicide attempts, and so it was pretty scary. For the first twelve months after those two sulicides. And so, and that's where the awards come from, you know, from that community and that work. It was recognized and I won those two awards.
Yeah, and the high rate of suicide in the communities is yeah, it's a well, I say shameful, it's just sad.
It's yeah, And I think it's very sad. It's very sad, and it's due to you know, when you're kind of mentioned there before, how do you how would you explain on what happens when you go to community and it's not until you go to community do you sit and you hear some of the experiences of trauma. And that I would kind of describe is that these are the reasons that some of these suicides are taking places because of some of that historical trauma, some of the intergenerational
trauma that has never been addressed. And yet when I come from the city perspective or I see social media, it's always about you know, you know, blackfellows this or Aboriginal people this. But there's actually a story behind some of that stuff. You know, let's listen to that and we're going to make a difference. And so that's what I see playing out is suicides and not so good behaviors due to the impact of trauma.
And you mentioned the copycat suicides when there's one in the community, invariably, yeah, it creates others doing the going down the same path.
It definitely does. And I talk about this this term that's called unfinished business, and what that means is if you're a young person and you've maybe had the thought of suicide in your life, you know, you might forget about it from eleven through to twenty one, and then at twenty one you'll see somebody try to do suicide or they might actually succeed in side, and then you'll you know, those young people that has that that had
that pain inside, that unfinished business will be will be triggered, and then all of a sudden, that's where the copycat will start to take place. And I see, I see that quite often, you know, in communities, and it's really sad. I think you named it very well, you know, spot on, it's sad. The men's group, YE talk us through what you can tell us of. You get a men's men's group. So you said you've met once a fortnight. What happens there so people understand. So look, firstly, what we do
is we establish we establish a safe place. And more times than not, you know, when I go to a community, a lot of the service providers that fund me to come into the community, they might identify to have a men's men's group in the community. And one of the first things that we identified together as men is we go where is your safe place here? Like, where would you feel safe to meet and start to talk about
these stories. And because one of my one of my things is I think that you know, there's this terminology is that men don't talk about emotions. I like to flip that on the head and I think, you know, it's not that, it's just there's not enough safe places. And so these men identify that usually there's safe places on country, usually on men's ceremony grounds, and so that's
where we go back. We go back to that place that's safe, and more times than not one hundred percent of the time, when we do this, we then start to identify some traditional ways of being sitting in circle and what's the elements to create in safety for men to actually talk about those stories. And that's where it begins. It begins by finding a safe place on country that the men know in the body is safe because I know no one can go there and that's a safe place for them.
Okay, And that creates it, and that creates it your business or that you've set up, what's the situation there.
So I obviously developed a So I've got a business. It's Lucas Williams leadership inside out and connect to that is also a business of mind, which is called garner healing. When it's a model, Garner healing means deep listening and it's become best practice in Australia. It services some of the some of the Australia's largest mental health services and government bodies and so on, and so it's a trauma informed experiential program that can train up workforces from CEO
down to your cleaner. And also that's one component. But then there's also leadership stuff in there. There's cultural awareness stuff in there. There's also just me working with CEOs in for example, there's a CEO at the moment in Australia and I'm working with that CEO on how to actually move within remote communities and it's going beautifully.
So this is the cultural awareness and competency that needs to You can I'll say a mining company. I mean, it's a mining company going into a community. What are the type of things to approach the community.
Yeah, But the difference with what I do is, so you've got your cultural awareness training where I actually come and I actually work with CEOs and different people more one on one rather because anyone can go through a training, but it's about being competent in the way that we move forward. And so I kind of work with people
and all right, how do we do this? And then they'll bring me back stories that they're uncomfortable about or they didn't work out, or they didn't this, or they didn't that, and we story map that on how to actually do things a little bit different. So that's the cultural competency stuff, motivational speaking around my story. But the biggest component of what I do is the trauma and form work in remote communities for men, women and communities.
And the element to it is deep listening. You know, if we can listen deeply a little bit like that Yindermuse story I shared with you. When I went into that community, I didn't know what to do, but one of the things that I fell upon was going back to my own model was deep listening and just being in the space and listening to the stories and then when I enter that, I usually find the solution that I need to that I need to go upon. And so that's kind of the journey that we take people on,
you know. It's an experiential journey.
Yeah. Yeah, And there'd be a lot of demand for it. I would imagine there is.
I'm booked out way in events and there is a lot of demand, and I wish there was more like it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Hi guys, just a quick interruption to let you know about a new podcast from the team behind Eye Catch Killers. It's called The Mushroom Cook. It's about a case that made headlines around the world last year, the prosecution of a Victorian woman called Aaron Patterson over a family lunch that left three people dead. The podcast goes deep into what we know about those alleged murders
in the coming months. It will also follow the twists and turns as erin who's denied any wrongdoing faces trial. If you subscribe to crimex Plus, you'll get access to The Mushroom Cook early and ad free. Just search for The Mushroom Cook on crimex Plus on Apple Podcasts. I'm going to ask you a question. It's because I'm genuinely curious the referendum from last year, the result the no vote went out. I'm not ashamed to say I was against that I was yes, and I'm not ashamed to
say that I was yes all the way. So I was particularly disappointed when the no vote came through. But there was a lot of talk and there was a lot of confusion, like across the country, and you'd be thinking, you know, like in this are definitely it was going to be the yes vote that we went for. So when the no vote came out, I was disappointed. How
did it feel in the communities? What was it because there seemed to be some division between there's people are respected that were saying no, and there's people are respected that were saying yes. And I'm talking Indigenous people. Divide the Indigenous community and what's your views on the whole thing.
I had the same experience, like obviously I was a yes. I had sisters of mine, very close people that I was connected to that voted no. And what I did is I tried to stay out of the argument of it or that was very hurtful. And then I was traveling community at the time, and I remember every single elder or person I come up against was not up
against that I actually connected with. They expressed the deep kind of pain of the no And one of the most probably pivotal things that i'd heard was that an old man said to me, you know, I think we've just confirmed that Australia has identified and confirmed that we're
living a racist country. And I was like wow, and I said, oh, tell me why, uncle, and he goes, well, you know, a majority of our people actually wanted the yes vote, and the way that he expresses it and the way that I seen it, I think that was the case. And we've actually, unfortunately been there's been a decision made for us, but not from our own people. It's been from the rest the majority of Australia. And
that's the same. You know, it's not the same. That's sad, because I would never want to make a decision for another culture that's not the same as my culture. I would want them to make the own decision what's right for them, and want to support that. And so that's how I see it, you know, I think, you know, if there's a culture that's hurting, no matter what culture they come from, no matter what background they have, and
they're saying that something needs to change for them. Let's love them and support that, and let's just support that journey for them. And so I find it really hard to understand. I just I find it baffling to understand why, you know, why, why it was?
It was a sad, sad day, I thought. And what worried me after it? This is just from my own personal experience. I was doing a talk to a large, large crowd and an acknowledgment from country, and people started doing and hissing, and you're thinking this wouldn't have happened three four weeks ago. But it was almost like, no, we're definitely for the no boat. It was almost making a statement that wasn't everyone. That was just a small group.
But I'm thinking that wouldn't occur. And I just hope it, Yeah, I hope it doesn't make things worse. But I thought it was a sad day.
Yeah, definitely. Look, and I actually done a keynote speech a couple of days after the no vote, and and I was emotional. I'd delivered in a way that was really good, but you know, I felt the pain of it. It was really painful. And so I had to be off social media. I had to not be involved in you know, because I was getting I noticed I was being asked questions about the yes or no vote, not purely to hear what I thought, more so so they could hear so they could respond to me. And I
find that's pretty that's not good behavior. You know that game. Why would you want to do that to somebody yourself? Yeah, so so, yeah, it's it's a shame. But but I guess something that I will take from this, and something I've also said in my keynotes is that yes, it's a no, but I'm going to do everything in my power to continue to bring healing. So so that's that's still my mission, even though that's been an experience that's hurtful, same as the sixty seven but you know, well actually
not the same as the sixty seven. My grandmother was part of the sixty seven referendum. So it's that pain's in there, but I need to dis continue to do the healing.
Yeah, did you ever, in your wildless dreams think you'd be where you are now? When you were angry young man, even after they gave you six years, you decided to come out and settle some scores you had to go back in. Did you ever envision that you would turn your life around like this?
No, Look, my my vision was there's a couple of movies. There's one The Postcard Bandit and the other is Blow and Has. So my vision as a young Fellows, I wanted to become an arm ROBBERI like postcard branded.
I wanted to it or something.
Yeah, yeah, I've done time with Abbot here ago. And I also wanted to have the money that Johnny Depp had in that movie. So that was my I was like, I wanted to achieve that, and that's where I've become.
You know, I speak look and blah blah blah, but I would never imagine that I would actually be on the other side of the other side of the fence, helping people and looking back at that life and just thinking to myself, you know, even the language within the jail systems, I don't use that anymore in my life today. I don't want it to consist in my life that my kids here, because I just see it as a load of shit. And so I wouldn't ever see myself
back in that world. And I always encourage the men that I sit with today is you know, to transform the brain, he must transform everything. And that means our language the way we talk about jail, because that doesn't that's not part of who I am anymore. My story is a different story. And I want the people in my life, to my kids to grow up with that. I don't want to grow up with the language of jail.
Well, listening to listening to your talk, yeah, I can see why you're doing a lot of keynotes. That's someone that and they were right way back in the early days when they said you've got good communication skills. Yeah. Yeah, So you've definitely moved from that life. But there's so much to be learned from your lived experiences and it carries weight and what you're doing, and it's made you the person you are today.
And it does And look, I remember this one police officer. I haven't heard of his name for a long time. His name was Aaron O'Sullivan and he was in He was a police officer, detective in New South Wales, and I remember he was one of the police officers that used to say to me, look, you're going to make it somewhere in life one day. This is a three and your old boy. And it was one of them cops that used to say, you know what made I've got youa you can lie you one, but I've got you.
And I used to just go, yeah, you got me. Yeah, And I always remember him saying that to me, and I always believed it, always like, yeah, I'm going to do something different in my life, and here I am today.
Well, it just shows how important when you're in those low points that you were in your life, if one person shows you some respect or it gives you some encouragement, the difference that can make.
It's major. Yeah, yeah, it's major. Yeah.
Well, I think this is about time that we wrap it up. I just want to say it's an absolute pleasure sitting down and having a chat with you, and yeah, if you ever reflect and laying there reflecting your balancing the ledger get back to what with the introduction that you wanted to make a difference, you wanted to heal, and you wanted to heal others, and you're actually doing all those things.
Yeah, definitely. Well I hope I hope to like I hope to think I am doing those things. I want to do everything in my power to make sure that I do those things for people.
Yeah, well, you're working in a tough area, a difficult area, in an emotional area, sad, it's got all the emotions there and you're hanging in and you are making a difference. So congratulations and thanks for coming on. I catch killers.
Yeah, thanks Gerry, thanks for having me.
Cheers.
Thanks.
Well, we've done a lot of stories of redemption and he's right up there. His life was at a pretty low place when he was in prison, but look at the work he's doing now. I'm very familiar with the type of work Lucas is doing in remote communities, and it's a tough gig and I think quite inspiring. Not only has he healed himself, he's now trying to heal others. And it's important to bridge that gap between indigenous communities
and the white communities and bring everyone together. And people like the work that Lucas is doing, or people like Lucas and doing the work he's doing, is doing just that.