“Who the f*** is Hamish”: Tracy Hall Pt.1

The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side of life. The average person has never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

Hey, Gary, how are you good?

Good? Look? Thank you so much for coming on the podcast to tell your story. I think it's we're all. I think we go through life and we all meet people that their intent is probably not what they first portray, and we've all been victims of scams and frauds. So I think people are going to really buy into your story because I've read your book over the weekend, The Last Victim, and I've got to say, I can see how you would be deceived when someone's so highly motivated

Yeah, one hundred percent.

It took me a long time to talk about it, to be honest, I was so ashamed, I was so embarrassed. I was really trying to put the pieces together in my own mind about what had happened. And what I realized was that I had never really heard a story

Yeah, when you talk the shame and embarrassment, it's funny, isn't it, Because we all like to think we're not nai even no one can pull the wool over our eyes. But it happens time and again.

Yeah, and it happens to you know, incredibly intelligent, well traveled, educated people, like.

It really can happen to anyone.

And I think, you know, sometimes the stories that you hear on the news, you have this picture of who might be someone that gets scammed, and quite often it's sort of a lonely middle aged woman sitting in a lounge room looking for love on the internet and suddenly she gives her life savings to an African prince. And you know, those stories don't help because most of us brush past them and say, well, that would never be me. I would never fall for that, And to be honest,

Well, that's where what happened to you is a double edged sword, isn't it, Because it not only stole your finances but your emotions. And I would imagine that hurts, if not more, at least just as much as losing the finances when you put your love and trust in the someone.

I think that's a common theme is that you know, finance is a one thing. You can always make money. If you're motivated, if you've got the right mindset, you can make money. It's the emotional betrayal and the emotional rebuilding that is the hardest. In building that trust in yourself probably first and foremost, but also the world around you because you for me, for example, i'd never come

It makes sense. I often think about how people become victims of what happened to you, or other scams, or where people have been just playing simple taken advantage. I've been a cop for a long time, so I'm not naive in what people are capable of. But I still like to see the good in human nature. And I can't believe someone would be so motivated to rip people off, basically take things from them. And I think that's where

Yeah, and if you don't suspect somebody, you're not looking for those red flags, you know. You you know, I think we all go through life trusting people. You know, I talk a lot about there are these invisible contracts of trust that exist within our society that makes the world work.

You know, you go to.

The doctor, you don't ask to see their medical degree. You trust that they are going to prescribe the right medication for you because of their qualifications. You drive down the road and you trust the person coming in the other direction knows the road rules, has their license, hasn't been drinking.

You get on an.

Aeroplane, you don't swing left with your portable breathalyzer, and you know, ask the pilots to do a quick test because you trust that they are abiding by the rules and regulations that we have in our society to make it work. And then so we have these kind of like you know, these these these moments where people prey

And we've got to try and find that balance between a little bit a little bit of suspicion attached, not too naive, but also be able to go through life trusting people. And you want to be able to do that. You talked about red flags, and I know this in your book you refer to them at the time. They're just flags with the benefit of hindsight, and let me tell you, we're all very wise with the benefit of hindsight. Oh, I wouldn't have done that, but you don't know unless

Just I mean, from my experience in this particular experience, the level that was gone, to the level of detail that was gone to create a fake PERSONA knowing that if he was this person, I would fall more deeply in love with him and trust him more was even more callous in a lot of ways because he created different people, like a different persona for different people. So he just found out what it was exactly that would, you know, get me to trust him and love him, and he just double down on that.

It's creepy. That's probably not a very appropriate word, but it's creepy that someone can go to cruel to the extent the way I want to tell your story and if you're you're happy with it, I'd like people just to hear it in a chronological flow. So we'll talk about obviously how it all ended, but let's talk about you as a person growing up. Let's get a sense of who you were.

Wow, we're going way back.

I had a pretty average upbringing, i'd say, very you know, working middle class. I have two brothers, one of the side of me. So I grew up playing a lot of sport. If I couldn't catch a footy, I was out of the family pretty much. So lots and lots of sports. Very kind of wholesome upbringing Northern New South Wales and Southeast Queensland. And you know, my parents both worked really hard.

We had a.

Great education, and I've traveled a lot. So I did the obligatory a couple of years overseas. Yeah, straight after, you know, I got the backpack and went to London, did that and came back and went to university in all the New South Wales, studying sports science.

I mean, just study something you love.

I reckon.

So that's what I did, and I ended up in sports marketing and traveled down to Sydney in nineteen ninety eight straight after UNI and got a job at the Olympics Stadium, which was a dream, you know, working on that as they were building.

It build up for the two thousand.

Yeah, and building the stadium and getting it all organized and the membership base and the marketing and the website and all of that back in the late nineties was pretty cool. And then all of the events that led into the Olympics to test the stadium, so I saw some of the biggest sporting events in the world, like

Yeah.

Okay, So for all intents and purposes, life was pretty interesting and a good childhood. Grew up and I think things were going well for you. And the excitement of the Sydney Olympics. Yeah, I obviously live in Sydney and I worked at the Sydney Olympics and that was it was just a great time.

Yeah, it was an amazing to.

Being involved in involved in that and the lead up to it. Then I can see why you're so excited. You talk about working marketing and different things you did. I've got to ask because you've made reference to it in the book and I'm going off topic here, but I'm just curious. The virtual shopping. Oh yeah, talk us through that. What was that about?

Well, so it was when.

And I'm saying this was someone that still gets nervous doing online shopping on their pon.

So I just I was just it's all right, you're all good.

Well, it was when the virtual reality the headsets were coming out. What we've seen at eBay was a really huge spike in people buying the headsets, and mostly for gaming, to be honest. But what it was bringing about was some technology that sort of started to open up a virtual world.

And what we did was.

We created a virtual reality department store where you could shop with your eyes. So you put the headset on and you literally just use your eyes attract your eyeball, and if you held your eye on something for long enough, it would pull up that item and then you could adjust the sizing, the color, whatever it might be, and then you could add it to kart and then you could check out with your eyes.

Wow.

So it was a very immersive experience. There was obviously sound, there was some of those dizzy things that went on. I don't know, I get a bit dizzy when I do it. But yeah, it was a world first and we created it. You know, the code was written from scratch. It was something that had never been done before. And I ended up taking over to the US, to the EBA team over in the US and showcasing it over there in a big conference.

So it was it was an incredible project to work on.

Yeah I can imagine, Yeah I can find it. Did it take off? Did it well?

The challenge is is not everyone have has the headsets, so in terms of the being able to access it, and then of course we worked with a huge department store in Australia and so you need, you know, you need these brands to be working with you. One of the challenges was the items needed to be rendered in terms of having that three sixty degree looks, so it wasn't just a picture flat on a page. It was a completely three dimensional rended So every product needed to be three sixty rented like that.

Now that's a pretty expensive and long.

Process to go through for a very small portion of people that would actually end up doing it. It was really more of a pr opportunity to show what's possible in the future and that a company like eBay, who was one of the very first e com sites, actually was progressive in their thinking about what the future of shopping.

Might look like.

I think another challenge is shopping, you know, for a lot of people as a very social event, So to do that in your lounde room on your own privately can be quite a lonely experienced.

Taking the experience a wife.

Yeah, so it was sort of you know, how do you circumnavigate that with technology and how do you create that? But you know, certainly it's definitely something that could be possible in the future.

It's just it's a long journey.

Okay, well, I'm very curious about it. But I think it also gives a sense of who you are, Like we haven't you know, the person that's fallen in love with the Nigerian prince that just needs one hundred dollars so he can get his two hundred million dollars. You're not that person. You've grown up healthy family, active family, social life, traveled overseas, working in businesses, cutting edge, Sydney Olympics.

That's definitely how I would see myself and incredibly lucky to have all of these experiences and see and do what I've done in my life.

Yeah, you weren't walking around with blinkers just waiting for someone to show you attention. Then you just fall immediately.

No, No, and I think it's fair to say that.

You know, at the time when I met Hamish, I was a year out of my marriage and I was going through the divorce and the separation, and you know, a year post that, I felt like I was ready. I definitely wasn't looking for someone to sweep me off my feet or I definitely wasn't looking for another husband, no thanks. And you know, I was in my early forties, so having more children was probably off the cards as well. So it wasn't like I was desperately looking for those things.

So how long were you married for.

I think we were married for eight years, but together for like thirteen or something like that.

And then you had a daughter to that marriage.

Yes, I had a daughter, so she was born in twenty ten.

And then when you've separated, going through all the emotional dramas of financial separation, everything that happens a divorce, so that that can be brutal. And you said twelve months it takes you to recover. That's I suppose that's about an average average all the time. And then you've got your life life in order, You've got a place that you're living in, you're living with your daughter. Everything's going fine, but you've decided that okay, it's time to get back

Yes, well, I think the thing was when I met my ex husband, you know, online dating wasn't a thing. You know, I met him through friends and that's how you built a relationship. And the old days, the good old days, and so I was re entering a world, you know where this was very new to me. And at that time, I was, you know, I was working a huge job at eBay, I was working long hours building virtual reality department stores. I was, you know, almost solo parenting. I have my child most of the time,

A long time.

So you know, I wasn't I wasn't going out really at all, you know, and I was pretty pretty aware that some awesome guy wasn't going to drop through my ceiling while I was watching maths on a Monday night.

You know, I had to do something.

And you know, at that stage of your life, your friends are all coupled up, and you know, it's it's hard to meet people.

So what do you do? You know?

So, yeah, so I started, I you know, plunged headfirst into the Sydney dating pool via dating apps.

I'm smirking here because I found it funny in your book that your friends were living vicariously for you with your successes and disasters on the online dating Yeah. So it's you know, it's a brave new world. I have no understanding about it. I can relate to watching masks because when my relationships have been in bad times, I watch that because that makes me feel better.

It's pretty you look at all the time, you look at all.

The dysfunction there and go, I'm not that bad. So I understand that. So I think a lot of people get the sense of who you were at the time that Okay, you've been through you've had your ups, you've had your downs, your successful career, but you're getting back into a social life and starting to live life again after your marriage separation. What was it about Max, let's

I think, you know, it was pretty slim pickings back in twenty sixteen, if I'm honestly from what I hear, it's still slim pickings now. But you know there was I swiped right on him because his photos look like he just looked normal, you know, and he had you know, megawatts smiley atal geographic blue eyes, and you know, he in these photos he was doing things that it seemed, you know, that he liked doing. He was running, he was surfing, he was you know, just sort of have.

A fighter with his shirt off, which is.

No And there were no sedated tigers in Thailand. There was none of that action going on. And and he wasn't wearing a bond Dutch hat, so you know, things were looking okay, so swipes right.

He just looked normal, I guess.

And it was funny because he'd reached out to me, and I didn't get back to him for like three weeks or something.

I don't know.

I was distracted and busy and working and whatever I was doing. So our very first contact with him having a bit of a jab at me saying, oh, he finally decided to have a chat to me, And I think that's what started in terms of our connection, was there was this like that was this really good banter. It was great conversation on the chat, and obviously then we moved on to a phone a phone call, and

Of common reference points.

You know, his banter was great, there was great chat, lots of laughs, very ausy bit of Alarican.

So it's just easy.

Period of how long Tracy this is?

Well, I think we connected.

I don't think we met after we connected on the app, so probably about a month, maybe something like that, maybe even longer. I can't remember now, but I remember it been quite a long time. So there was a lot of time to go back and forth and have these conversations, and then of course, you know talk talk on the phone.

Okay, can I just make the point here because I just I want people to sort of really live what you were going through there. That would give you some comfort too, wouldn't it. It's not the type of person why didn't you respond? And then sends you a hundred texts and you haven't responded in five minutes and where have you been? Type? So even that sets up a base of normality of confidence well, this person's not a try hard. He's taking his time and it's just moving

Yeah, it felt.

It felt really comfortable, and it didn't feel pushy like you said. It just felt really normal. He seemed to understand, you know, the situation I was in my corporate life, the life I had with my daughter, and he wasn't sort of pushing into that. It was like, you know, whenever you've got time, or do you have time, and we'll catch up for a meal. And that's sort of how it progressed. And it was like, okay, well in a couple of weeks time, I've got this night. So

Okay, So the exchange via the text messaging, then a conversation and then a meal. Describe us on the I'm sorry, I feel like I'm primed. Tell us about your first date.

This was actually this is what I did have to go through with the with the police.

Maybe it's a placeman in me because I'm thinking, okay, well, okay, tell us what happened on the first Yeah, that's it.

So the first date, he came and he can pick me up in the city. He booked a restaurant. He'd planned the whole thing, which was great. It was like one lessing I had to sort of worry about. And I after work that day, I went for a drink with a work colleague and we were just down in the city where he's.

Going to pick me up and having a drink.

And he arrived early and we just ordered a drink and I said, hey, we've just ordered a drink. Why don't you come in. You can meet my friend from work and then we'll go.

And he was sort of like, oh.

First of all, it was like there's you know, there's no parking here that it's a no parking zone. Don't worry about it. I'll just you know, I'll wait a few minutes. And I'm thinking, well, I've just literally I'm like, I'm just going to have to skull this and and I said, no, what, you just come in.

There's a park up around the corner.

I told him where he could park, and he kind of got a little bit shirty. But it's always hard to tell with text and when you've not met anybody, impossible.

Yeah, and he was like, look.

If you just want to meet me at the restaurant. I'll just meet you at the restaurant, or we can do this another time, and knowing that it had taken so long to organize this one night because of my schedule, it was kind of like, oh, that's a bit, that's a bit you know, bit brash or a bit you know.

I just it just felt a bit spicy.

And anyway, I said, no, no, no, well I'll finish up and I'll come out. And it was all about the fact he couldn't park and it was no parking zone and all of this. Anyway, we go up to the restaurant, which was in Pot's Point, and so I got in the car and it was the first time I met him, and he was sitting down and I remember having a little bit of like a sinking feeling my tummy because he just wasn't kind of like what

I always thought with those dating apps, you'd be better off, wouldn't you. Underplaying what you look like and then you look better than your picture. That would have to Yes, just a theory. But yeah, I don't know.

Maybe the people don't get as many I don't know what you call them, hits or like matches or whatever.

Okay, so you're breaking that down. You've gone for a drink with a girlfriend beforehand.

It was a guy from work.

Heah, it can't come in, and the reluctance. I'm trying to think if I was in his spot, I could make a good impression on the friend or whatever, come in and talk. So there was a reluctance for him to come in there.

There was a reluctance for him to do that. It was all based on the fact he couldn't park, or he'd been a no parking zone. Anyway, I got in the car and I was like, oh, he's not all that. And then we went up to the restaurant in Pot's Point and we couldn't find a park and ironically, he parked in a no parking zone. This doesn't matter, I'll just pay the fine. And I was like, but you're

And I think I yawned when he was that's not that's Tracy.

Well.

I think he was manologuing about something and I and I.

Said, I'm sorry, I'm so tiny. He said it's fine, we'll get you home.

And there was no kind of like, oh god, you know, why are you so tired? It's only nine o'clock. He was he was very caring and said that's fine, we'll get you home. And he said I'll put you in a cab. So we went, you know, we left the restaurant, didn't get a parking ticket, and that was our night. He put me in a cab and that was that.

And what was your impressions after that? For the first first catch up.

I thought it was a really nice meal. You know, we'd had great conversation, we'd connected, we found out a little bit more about each other. He was really interested in the work I was doing at the time, the virtual reality depart and store. He asked a lot of questions. He was a great listener. There was banter, you know, it was it wasn't all serious. There was some laughs, and it felt really easy and comfortable and he had great chat and that was that.

Okay, so you left. That would be nice to catch up with him again. Yeah, And who initiated that or was the mutual so that let's do this again?

Yeah, it was probably in a text afterwards and it was probably something along the lines. So, you know, that was a really great dinner.

Thank you.

Yep, love to do it again if you're up for it. Sure, Yeah, I'm up for that, you know. So it was it was very casual, like there was nothing sort of formal or stilted. It just felt like it flowed really.

Nicely, Okay, And how did the relationship progress past that point? It became more regular.

Yeah, well it was kind of the time I had available were every second weekend and then the odd the odd night during the week, you know, every couple of weeks or whatever. So we just planned it around my schedule. There was never any pressure for me to get babysitters or anything like that. It was very much in my hands. So we just planted around what my availability was, which you know, in retrospect probably suited him quite nicely because he was off doing a whole bunch of other things.

Okay, so the pace you were comfortable with the pace.

It was a slow burn, right, yeah, very slow burn.

You wanted to move quicker, but it was just sort of or it was the way you were both both were.

I think it was just the way we both were.

You know, I was still coming out of my separation and divorce, and yeah, I wasn't in a rush. And I wasn't in a rush too, you know, like I said, I wasn't looking for another husband or to have more children or anything like that. So it's just I was just really comfortable with the way it was. We had a great time. I knew that my circumstances in situation didn't allow much more than that. So that was on me, which you know, it was what it was. And then and then he seemed comfortable with that.

What did he reveal about himself as this relationship was developing.

Oh, I mean there are a lot of stories, and you know, this is over the course of sort of six or seven nine months. In the beginning, you know, everything from his family situation where he told me his parents had passed away in a plane crash, so he was sort of left in often quite young and grew up in.

The foster system. So there was a lot of talk about that.

There was a lot of talk about sort of, you know, his career because you know, of course, we were working full time in corporate at this point, so it takes such a big portion of your day. So when you catch up at the end of the day, that's sort of for what happened at work today, What have you been doing, what you been working on? And he told me he was a chief financial investment officer for a family office, so working on a lot of sort of al turning investments and hedge funds and things that I

Lots of stories, so.

We've got this, you know, it's a heart string pull out of his parents died in the plane crash that he happened to survive, raised by foster family. Then worked in New York. Was it sixteen years? Was there during September eleven? And lost a friend as he's walking to

I picked up mail from his letter box that was addressed to Max Tevita.

Because when I'm looking through the process of this, I'm thinking, well, if I was started seeing someone that I liked, I didn't, I wouldn't be checking their names or going through Well, let's let's have a lot.

It was the last time you asked someone for one hundred points by D when you met them.

I don't know, but after talking.

To you, maybe we show maybe it should be good.

It is interesting about the stories, because I think this is really important to mention, is that when you recount a story, you tell the whole story. What's missed in that is that that story came in probably ten, twelve, fifteen installments, and it's a little bit each time, and so it's not until you look backwards that you go, that's the whole story, and oh my gosh, that seems

That's a good point, that's yeah.

But when when I'm telling these stories, of course I tell them in one piece because it's the full story. And that's how we that's how we express how how ridiculous these things are. That he said, but in reality they came in bits and pieces, and this is the death by a thousand cuts. This is the course of control that occurs, because how did it have been in one go?

You'd go, come on, mate.

Really, So I think that's important to mention because it creeps up on you.

That's very important to mention, because you're quite right. If I put it all there and go, this is what he's told you, I'd be going, Tracy, look, yeah, but if it's have you got family? My parents passed away? That could be the first.

That was literally the first conversation of it. And then you move on to oh, what are we going to order for dinner?

I'm sorry your parents have passed away? And then plane crashes All planes scare me because of what's happened. Yah. Yeah, quite, that's a valid point, and that's you know, and that's how they manipulate, that's how they they do it. He can't present with all these things up up front, even like over in New York. Well he worked in New York for sixteen years. Good chance he was there during September eleventh.

Yeah, I just had to put the dates together, and yeah, it wasn't unusual I mean, that was a big that was a big story. But you know, there's this thing, you know, you make the life so big that you can't not believe it.

Because the other.

Thing to mention is the level of detail he went to when he did tell a big story. That story in particular, when I asked him, it wasn't like I was there and the plane hit and I was under and I had to run away and that was that's the end of the story. He went into detail about first and last names of people that work with him on Wall Street, what floor they worked on, what department of what company they worked for, how he knew them,

But it gives it some credibility, doesn't it if the way someone's real relaying a story that.

Was completely made up.

So I don't know, maybe he'd told the story before, Maybe he'd just made it up on the spot. Maybe he was playing a game with himself to see how clever he could be, and how like nothing faulted and everything lined up. Yeah, strange, it's incredible talent.

Well in Wondergred, Well, he.

Had been a fraud ser and living a large portion of his life ripping that people off. So yeah, he had to have some skills in that era. Did you do, because most people these days jump on social media and have a look around. Did you were you curious to what his profile was on social media?

One hundred percent.

I think you should always deep stalk people that you're about to meet.

Call it stalking. We talk against stalking on the shape, but I think everyone, yeah.

I think you should investigate people that you're that you're looking to meet, that you've never met before.

So yes, of course they did.

He had preempted that and he said, you, I'm not on social media.

I don't agree with it.

I don't want anyone to know stuff about my life, like I want a private life. You know, there was an again it was it was a story that went with it and an excuse. Now, it's one thing not to have a social media profile. At that time, Cath didn't have social media profile. It shouldn't even on LinkedIn. So I do have friends that don't have a social media profile, and that's fine, you know, that's that's everyone's choice.

What was weird was.

That there was no digital footprint of Max to picture. So yes, I did search, and again I think I go into this in the book. It would be after we'd met, which was like generally a dinner, probably be like ten or eleven at night. I'm lying in bed, I just done a big day, and I'm searching up things that he may have said, just a double check or to research or what have you, and nothing would come up. And you know, Max Devita doesn't exist online. You know, there is no digital footprint of Max Devita

He told me.

Well, and I'd look and I couldn't find anything. And then you know, of course again it's eleven thirty at night, and I'm thinking I've just got to go to bed, and then he moves on.

And you're balancing all that up, and I understand all the chaos of just getting through life with all the things that you got going. But okay, you're not getting the footprint on social media or digital. But there's a real person. There's a person telling you he does exist. Because there he's sharing my bed with me. I know he's there. It's not or it doesn't appear to be fictional.

I don't know, because I don't know. In your forties, like you, my boyfriend, what.

Do you call someone yet partners.

I don't know.

He isn't asking me. You're going around with me?

Yeah, you go out with men.

I mean, from my perspective, it was pretty much from the moment I met him, Know, I wasn't seeing anyone else. I was spending all my spare time with him that I could. I was very much invested in the in the relationship. From his point of view, I don't know, but yeah, I mean it sort of progressed over time. It was a very intimate, emotionally intimate relationship. Physical intimacy was sort of like that took a lot longer. He was kind of a bit weird in that way.

So, yeah, I saw in the book you questioned him about that and he came up with it's a slow slow burn.

I like, yeah, this way, Yeah, what starts with what do you say? What starts through the bang ends in a fizzle. I was like, well, that's a big, pretty big fizzle in the end. But it was a big fizzle. Yeah, look, you know that was just that was just him. But I guess the relationship felt incredibly safe because you know, the conversations we had were at such a deep level. He sort of presented this level of emotional intelligence and

And it was like you were both exposing yourself emotionally exposing yourself, and you felt secure and secure in that. And it got to the point where you introduced your daughter to him.

Yeah, after quite a while, I introduced her because I was on the phone to him a lot, and she'd often overhear.

A conversation how old she was.

She would have been five and a half six six, something like this, and she just knew as Max on the phone, and you know, he was very engaging. So he called her, you know, Rascal and you know, hey, what's the rascal up to? And you know, he every time he'd come and see me or meet with me, he'd bring a little packet of like, you know, chocolate freckles to leave for her, and you know, just really

So you know, they go along really well.

I mean, he he just sort of matched her energy. He was very engaging. He's very knock about, kind of jovial guys. So you know, there were a lot of laughs and a lot of banter again, which you know that suited her.

Very good way to your heart, isn't it if you've got a child and a child enjoys spending time with Max.

It's if someone engages with your child and shows interest and it's easy, then that's a tick. We didn't really spend weekends together or anything like that. It was always, you know, holidays is when they spent the most time together, which sort of happened, you know, more towards the end of the relationship. My mom came on holidays with us. He built a relationship with my mom with my family, you know, so there was a bit of closeness there as well.

A couple of things where he made excuses last moment excuses not to meet with your friends or commit to a function and not turn up to a function. You look back now and again with all that piece together, But at the time, yeah, he was an investment banker or the work he was doing, and he was busy all the time, and these things happened. So talk us through that. Where you'd line up to meet your friend. I love your friend. What's her name, Caath? She We've

She did, she did her bidy sensors were going off from the beginning, and you know, cars incredible. I've known her for nearly twenty years. And you know, the way that Greg Barrup described it in the podcast was it's like being in an illusionist show. So when you're sitting in the front row and the illusionist is doing all the tricks, you don't see any of them because you're just you're in the front row. But if you're standing side of stage and you're watching these tricks happen, you

Okay, that's a very good way of describing it. And I can understand you would have been seeing Max and reporting back to kathgo and this happened that happened, and that's strange. That's strange. So yeah, the death of the parents in the plane crash, and that he happened to survive and woke up unconscious, and all the tragedies and all that. She's getting that all in one lump, looking

Yeah, And Kath is a really curious person, and she always asks a lot of questions. So where some friends or you know, some relationships, you're like, oh, how's Max, and you go, yeah, good, we're going you know, we're going for dinner, or we're going to buy her next weekend or whatever. That would be the end of the conversation, whereas Kath follows up with questions and constantly curious about

And I said, what's wrong?

And she said, I don't know how to say this to you, trace, but I just don't think Max is who he says he is. I'm really worried about you investing your superannuation with him now. She is the only person I told I was doing that. Probably she was the only one that asked. But also too, we don't talk about our money. We don't talk about who we're investing with. We don't talk about how much we earn. You know, it is a taboo subject in a lot

You know. She hadn't met him. And I said to her, Kat, but you haven't met him. You don't know.

You don't know him like I do. You don't you haven't heard the conversations we've had. You he's got my back, he's got my best interests at heart. You'll see, You'll see when you meet him.

You're in your love bubble too.

Of course I have my Rose could classes on, and I wanted her to get to know him the way that the way that I did. He was very socially awkward, so getting him to meet friends, because he had reniqued on so many different occasions, was tricky. And I didn't have a lot of availability either. So when I was available or had a schedule, we wanted to spend time together.

So that was really that was a difficult thing.

But anyway, we finally got a time to have dinner and had dinner with her and her husband, and you know, she just perpet him with questions, and you know, her husband walked away. Go no, you know, if you weren't so suspect on him, I think he was a really

This is a twenty year friendship. This is not something down the toilet.

If she pushed too hard, that would almost be well, you're going to make a choice between him and me, And yeah, I would.

Have defended him, or I would have tipped him off, you know. And so she she knew she had to play it really carefully. But I'm so you know, I'm so grateful for you know, the questions she asked me and the fact she had the guts to take me for breakfast and say, I'm really worried because a lot of people wouldn't do that.

They'd just sort of wait.

And see conversation.

Really, and that's why she was crying like this is this is the most stoic woman you've ever met, and she's crying so obviously meant something to her, and that would have been a really, really hard time for her, and she was determined to protect me, and it was just I guess, I don't know if luck is the right word, but he was arrested before she, you know, had a chance to give me that.

Forwarder get across.

But she is also the one that sent me the video of.

Okay, we'll talk about the arrest. But how long had you been seeing Max before she started to become sus.

I don't know when she first started to become sus, but when she took me for breakfast that was I think it was early in twenty seventeen, So this stage, it's nearly a year after we've been together, and it was when the conversations around the money started heating up. You know, the self managed super fun happened in early two thousand and fifty seventeen, so I think that was what prompted her to have that chat with me at

I like an intuition there that Tavita is an island in the Pacific tongue name. Yeah, he's white.

Yeah, yeah, that was that was us for her. You know, I didn't I didn't know that cultural relevance or that reference, so I couldn't relate to that. Again, I probably did a quick search one night late on the Internet about it. But I would say she was probably suspect fairly early on.

But it did take.

Her and her concern as a friend in that early stage you have your heart broken, not then when it ramped up the hold that now you're investing your finances, it's going to be more than your heart and your finances.

That's what she was most worried about.

Okay, just about the finances that he used to like five cars. Well, tell us it's all up, like what your impression you You thought, okay, he's got a bit of money, and then he'd flash it, but then he'd pull.

It back and yeah, and again this is where the things come slowly, the death by thousand. So the cars appeared over time. It wasn't like, hey, I've got five cars, because I go, you're a jerk.

Like what why?

And I actually said that to him because by the time I'd seen the fourth car that just sort of appeared one day, I was like, what single forty year old guy who lives in BONDI needs five cars? Like, you're just a jerk, Like that's so excessive. And the next conversation was, you know what, Tries, I've been thinking about what you said about the cars, and you're right, I don't need them. I'm going to get rid of a couple of them. And then suddenly they all started disappearing.

So he was just a chameleon that kept changing for whatever.

Yeah, I'm sure if I had been impressed by.

That, you would have had ten cars.

Yeah, probably would have given me a couple I don't know and put them in someone else's name. But you know, they sort of started disappearing, and you know, there were signs of wealth, but there are also signs of not wealth. And when I questioned those things, you know, he had an answer for everything. Right, So he lived in a one bedroom apartment in Bondou was a beautiful apartment, but it was small.

It was it was fairly minimals.

Yeah, minimalist's say, and yeah he so it asked him about things and he'd say, Trace, I've lived that life. This is the apartment I had in New York. And of course he's got the photos to show me, you know, and he tells the stories and overtime told stories about this apartment and he lived in that building and where it was and the whole thing. And he said, I've lived that life, and I came back to Australia to

Now, when we apply the drip feed coefficient into that, it makes sense, like when you're telling it, Yeah, but you could see someone he liked these surfing Okay, I've just decided to change directions in life. So yeah, it's you can understand that if you're getting fed in the moment about added up.

It all added up and coupled with his persona and his desire to have a simple life and just do the things he loved, I could relate to that. You know, he's like, what I want to.

Be doing now?

How he got you to invest in what he was doing? Again, that was done incrementally. Who was done in small small parts talk us through that.

I mean probably as backstory. There were hundreds and hundreds of conversations about finances and investing and money in his line of work and his career and what he was doing at the family office for some of the richest families in Australia, and reports and the Bloomberg monitors on, you know, in his apartment and you know the office and the pictures from the office, and you.

Know, the whole set up, the whole thing.

It was like a movie, right, And this started from the day that we met, the day that we first connected. This story was built over time, over conversations, over text messages, over phone calls, over reports and documents, and you know, he created this whole movie so that I believed that he was who he said he was.

Even phone calls.

Yeah, there were phone calls with people that I overheard and I could hear the person on the other end about a trade that he needed to put through. So it was someone in his back office that was executing the trades for him, Claudia, I need to do this. What was the price of gold it close yesterday? What is it today? What's it likely to be? Have you modeled that? I need to put fifteen on that? And do you know I don't know who these people. I still don't know who these people are. I don't believe

At Bell Pot of Securities, right, And that's how it happened.

And the way you describe it, the new use word grooming, and I think that's an apt way of describing it. We usually do that with pedophiles with children, but this is a different crime, but the same process it is grooming, and the effort that has to go to leave paperwork all around the desk and you compute the screen open, then talking business, talking shop on the phone. And the sense that I got, the way he got you in there, it was almost like I'm doing you a favor. I'm

Eighty seven thousand, that was my superannuation.

Talk to me about that. How did he just say, okay, let's move it all across.

So that was the self managed super fund. So that was my twenty two year career worth of superannuation. And that was completely transferred across to a self managed super fund, which I then withdrew in a check for a trading account. But that trading account was not in my name. He went into an account of his right.

And then thurd of April eighty thousand, two thousand and seventeen, Yeah, twelfth of June two thousand and seventeen forty thousand.

Yeah.

So they were some shares and some savings that I had accumulated, mostly shares that I'd earned through working in tech. And he again, you know, throughout the countless conversations we had about you know, Trump's antics and how that was impacting the US markets and what was going to happen, and it was at an all time high. So you should cash those in and then we'll invest them and we'll diversify. And you know, he gave me the whole strategy and

And this is eighteen months into your.

Relationship, almost eighteen months.

Yeah, and yeah, you trust him. He's met your family, holidays, you're staying at each other's place. There was intimacy, their physical intimacy, everything that a relationship would be defined as you're in this relationship, talk about buying a house, moving to Byron Bay, going to look at the houses.

It's just multiple houses.

Bullshitting with the real estate agents pointing out houses. I used to live this or I used to own that house, and then why don't we buy this?

Yeah, we got contracts on houses, we saw floor plans, I mean, the level of dep like it was just a game for him, you know, he didn't have a job, like I was busy working sixteen hour days trying to earn a living, and he was doing all this on the side, just as a bit of a game. So we'd go to Byron and travel throughout the Byron hinterland and look at house after house. I took my mom, I took my daughter with us, you know, and you imagine yourself, you know, in a couple of years moving

I see here. It's just evil, isn't it. It's hard to comprehend because I know those type of conversations where you're sitting down planning your future. The excitement would have been coming out of the pause of your skin about the hit I can see the life, We've got the future together, and the whole time it was it was I think.

The thing too, that I find so interesting is how you can fake loving someone for that long, like you know when someone likes you or not right, like you know that, or he's just not that into.

You, you know, and that little look.

Yeah, or just the dismissiveness of respect or whatever it might be. Like he was so there and it was it was so real, and yet it wasn't. And I just think, gosh, the level of investment that he went to to pretend to love at that intimate level. Because this wasn't just a business deal. This was a life we were describing and building and and you planning, but.

It was all it was all just fake.

Yeah, it is hard to comprehend, I think to get the sense of and I've just pulled a quote out of your book, but to get a sense of your life as of before it all blew up on the eleventh of July two thousand and seven, and you're in a good place. And this is how you described your life when you woke up feeling good. I woke up feeling fulfilled in every life area family tick, career, tick,

Yeah, it was and I'd been through and the first part of the book talks about this.

I'd been through a lot, you know. My dad died really young.

You know, I'd been through a divorce, my mum got breast cancer, I had a miscarriage. There was a lot that happened, and I had coped with a lot, and so you know, the traumatic kind of the separation that divorce. I'd gotten to a place, you know, two and a half years after that point where I felt like I'd met someone who you know, I felt like I was in a relationship like what my parents had, you know,

I see that, and I pulled it out as a quote because it just it's so sad. We've all been in that stage of life where you think maybe this life is for me, this is it's all, everything's lined up, and then it went tragically south. Yeah, we did. You couldn't get in contact with him over a twenty four hour period, or there was a text working late and you text him but there was no response. But do you want to take it from there?

Yeah, We've been to Byron for the weekend, I was up there presenting at a marketing conference and came back.

He was up there supporting me.

It was he drove back after I flew back, and I missed a call from him one morning that I was busy like at school, holidays, were getting kids off to camps and the whole thing, getting into the office, and I spent the rest of the day trying to get back in touch with him and couldn't, and that

He's surfing Buddies, people.

That he grew up with, and I knew their company names, so you know, I reached out to them. So I was doing a lot of outreach overnight and barely slept and woke up super early the next morning because I still hadn't heard called Bondo police and asked them to do a wellness check on him because I just had a feeling that something was wrong. I thought he'd been in an accident.

And.

While that was happening. Kath called me and she said, how are you? And I said, I'm really worried. I haven't slept a wink. Something's happened to Max. She said, I'm going to send you a link. I said, oh my god, he's died. What's happened. There's been an accident. He's surfing as there's been a shark attack. She said, no, no, no,

Okay, well, look we might we might take a break. At this point, I'm I'm angry. I can't imagine how you It would just be an absolute headspin on trying to comprehend that. So we're going to take a break, and when we get back, we'll talk about how you processed what you found out and how your life was from that moment or that turned upside down. But I think those that have been listening to your talk through understand how the relationship just organically grew and there weren't