The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side of life the average persons never exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome to another episode that by Catch Killers. We're going to have a hard conversation. Today we'll be talking about policing through the eyes of an Aboriginal woman who spent ten years in the Queensland Police Force, and what she
says will make people feel uncomfortable. Sometimes facing the truth is difficult and confronting. It takes courage to speak up, and today's guest is a courageous lady. I have a passion for policing and indigenous issues, So when the two are in conflict, that saddens me. Unless people like today's guest, Veronica Gory, speak up, things won't change. I invite everyone
to sit back and listen to Veronica's story. There is as powerful as it is inspirational, and there's a story that needs to be told, and if it's listened to with an open mind, it might just change some people's view and give us a greater understanding about what it's like to be an Indigenous woman working as a police officer. Veronica Gory, Welcome to I Catch Killers.
Thank you Gary.
Well, I'm really pleased that we've finally got to got to meet. When I started hearing about your story, I always thought our paths would cross in some way. Yeah, and we've been trying to get you on for a couple of years. You're a hard person to track down sometimes.
Yeah, a bit like that.
How do you feel?
I feel really good. Yeah.
You get the background you've come from. I've come from, and we're cops and here we are sitting in a studio trying to be media people. Yeah.
I'm not sure how today's going to go, but I think I'll be right and if we're not, you know, we'll get there.
Well, the pressure pressures on the stuff up or my my fault. Yeah, the reason I'm interested in your story coming from the police. My eyes were opened up to racism in the in the police, and we'll call it for what it is in the police. When I first became involved in the Barable investigation, and I put my hand up and you know, we're going to have a
long conversation about things. But I went up to Bearable, to the mission where three children had been murdered, and I was ignorant about racism within the own organization, racism within society, and ignorant about the issues that Aboriginal people face living in an area on the outskirts of town. And it changed my view on the world. But they
also changed me as a police officer. Do you think there's a lot of police out there that just don't get exposed to it or don't understand it because I went up there and naive, thinking, well, we're not really racist. Occasionally people will make a joke about the blackfellow or something like that. But once I realized what was going on, I was ashamed of the person I was before I got there.
Yeah, I think policing all over this country, if not the world, or like it says they have, is systemic racism and it's deeply entrenched. So when I was at the academy, I didn't like, I didn't hear any racial slows. That was fine, but don't like the first week out on general duties. It's just it's very confronting and to hear people racially little for your own mob, it's really hard to listen to. And as of first year Connie was quite difficult for me to speak up because I'd
just come out of the academy. I think after this there was also there was other police that were already they'd been in a job for three years, and they were too for it to come out as Aboriginal because of that. For that reason, because of the racism and the police. Yeah, so I actually think I accidentally brought brought them out of the white closet, so to speak.
Yeah, it's what I find strange because people very much became aware as my career progressed my stance on Indigenous issues and racism and all that, But still comments would fly around the office that were, yeah, I'm thinking, oh, the guys you actually, yeah, you know where I stand. You think it's appropriate to yeah, make these make these comments.
Yeah, and it must have been hard, like say, and that was the thing with me when I was in a job. Each and every time I heard racial slurs against my people, I called them out for it. I was deemed to be difficult. I'm an angry black woman. But when white fellows say it, it's they pay attention. They stand up and go okay, yep, yep, they actually listen to you. But as a black fellow, like I was just a winging, winging black woman.
Yeah, you touch on an interesting point there, because I've had to, just in my role and the stance I've taken on things, had to articulate issues. But I'm always mindful that it's hard for me as a white man talking about issues that indigenous people are facing because I haven't walked that path, and I do it as best I can. But I'm always respectful that it's your position.
It's our life. Like each and every day we're fighting a system and the injustices in the colony. You know, to be watched while you go shopping, you know, surveiled by the staff, and you know you're pre you know, they're already preconceived that you're going to be sealing stuff or terrible like. And as a cop, it was very difficult too. I was always asked, so are you a full cop, like did you go to the academy or are you a police susan, Yeah, yeah, what, Yeah.
It's confronting. And my other experience in one of my failed marriages I won't go into, but I was married to an Aboriginal lady and what I what I found in with the bearable communities and other communities, and there's subtle racism that comes out. And quite often you could be out and someone says something in the room goes silent because they all look towards the person. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say that, but it's just in
people's nature. And that was very much in the police Like people would say say things and I'd sort of look at really, you're saying this. So you must have been confronted with that time and time again.
Yeah, and being given that, I'm like, I've got an olive complexion as well, so I would have been seen as a white fellow with a deadly TN. But like you know, I don't know any other job or career whereby. You've got it within the first three or two to three minutes of working for someone new, you've got to let them know that you're Aboriginal. You know, I don't know any other job whereby. And then I did that strategically because I didn't want to hear racial clues about my people.
And explaining that because people people might find that's unusual. But I know exactly what you're saying, because I've been in those situations with people that they get it out very upfront.
First thing.
We say I'm Aboriginal, just to stop the comments, and.
We shouldn't have to, like I'm not asking your background, right, you know, like I see people as people, but yeah, everyone's different. I guess I don't know what goes through
their mind. But I also want to go back to the bar of Barroville murders, where I witness you with the families and how you treated the families really sensitivity and bringing very respectful to them and the families of and the thing is that tore us up as a nation watching that and hearing about the families urban what they were going through and still going through a lot of families are still going through it right now that
you know, we're missing women and children. As Abershinal people, when we report a crime, like as a victim, Please can't imagine us as victims because they're so us still locking us up. So, for example, I know someone who's trigger warning, always a trigger warning when I talk, who's put in a rape complaint and the investigation, I just know police haven't done the work. They said they couldn't find one of the perpetrators. It took me whole or five minutes. I'm not even in the job anymore. It
took me five minutes to locate this person. So that tells me that they're not doing the work and they don't take this complaint serious. And it's upsetting because as Abershinal people, we don't call police. I know, with a lot of other people when they have conflict in the community or their families or out and about their first instinct to call triples there. With Aboriginal people, we don't. And there's good reason for that because we're always mostly misidentified as perpetrators.
Yeah, and again, little things like that that people, and you explain that in very clear, articulate way people don't understand that. People can't understand what you're talking about. Recently, and you reference it in your second second book about the federal parliamentary inquiry into Missing Black Women. I gave evidence a couple of weeks of a couple of months ago at the inquiry, and it's frightening the type of things that how is it that these victims are forgotten?
And it really is a victim forgotten because of their race, I call it, and it's probably a soft term for it. And I've said this sometimes when I'm talking about this unconscious bias that people don't even think they're racist, but the way that they receive the information there is a bias.
I don't believe in unconscious bias. I was waiting for you that and I was kind of thinking about that word that that that phrase aren't phrase. I don't believe in that. People like you've fully grown adults, okay, babies and children. They're not born to be racist. So they're learning it from their parents or in the.
Family about valid pints.
Yeah, so you're not. Yeah, there's no I don't believe in your conscious Okay, you have have you know as an adult, you know you know the difference between right and wrong, and you just know saying saying words that are derogative is not right.
Yeah, so I take it. Yeah, it does make sense. Again, this is from your perspective, and I a dress it up, but I take on, bore what you now.
I think with the age of criminality with your young people, is a ten years old in this state or fourteen for the got ten ten? Still ten? Right, They've been convicted of crimes alleged crime at the age of ten because they're deemed to know the difference between right and wrong. So I fully grown asked. You know, Herry, as adult should know the difference between right and wrong.
Okay, fair coll, fair coll. All right, Now I just ask about the books and we'll talk a lot about what's contained in the book. But your first book, Black and Blue, a memoir of racism and resilience, which I might add and correct me if I'm wrong. But the Victorian Prize for Literature Australia's richest literary award in twenty twenty two. Yeah, yep, congratulations, thank you very much.
Yeah. And who would have thought, oh, because much of that book was about the injustices the state government Victorian State government did to my family. Ironically, it was a Victorian state government funding writers funding that or prize that I won. It's really good.
Where you're making the little difference. What inspired you to write the book?
So initially, so after towards the end of my career as in Queensland Place Officer, I was diagnosed with PTSD anxiety and depression and due to the trauma, your brain does weird and wonderful things. But I started to lose a lot of my memory, and so I started writing, documenting some stuff, a lot of my memories, and not
not just for my kids but future generations. And I wished my grandmother had done this to hand down the stories, and also as Black Fellows were the oldest living storytellers as well, so I wanted to document what memories I did have. Unfortunately, there weren't many good memories. For some reason, my brain has I can't remember any good memories. I don't recall any I'm sure there would have been, but I just don't have any memory of it. So yeah, and before too long I had enough for a book.
So and did you feel was it triggering in bringing up some of the past or did you find it cathartic.
Cathartic no triggering, so yeah, very triggering.
There's some heavy stuff in there.
Yeah, and it would keep me up late at night and I had odd hours of writing as well, like due to the memory loss. And so at two o'clock in the morning, if I had a memory come to me whilst I'll sleep, I'd get up and start writing because I knew that I went back to sleep would have forgotten about it.
Yeah, fair enough, fair enough. Well, congratulations because I've read the book cover the cover, and yeah, I enjoyed, enjoyed the read. When I say enjoyed the read, it's not happy, it's not a happy read. That's me clarify that. You'll think I'm some with that. How are you enjoying that?
Come from that comedy?
Like you gotta laugh? I Yeah. One thing that the barer of a community taught me was their sense of humor. Just crack me up all the time. We're the funniest people quite often at my expense or whoever I was working with expense. But yeah, and they're able to laugh. And I think that's a good way of dealing with adversity and tragedy and everything else that goes into play.
I think in life you choose to over laugh or crying. We choose to laugh. Yeah, crying every day, right, Yeah.
You could imagine that the bearerable mob. But what they give to two white guys coming from the city up on the mission and the ship that they used to put on us, and it was done in good humor, and the more they got to know us.
You really what I want to emphasize that you really earned their respect, which is what I've seen and that's not common. Yeah, so just it's very telling about your character.
Really, it was something special, and people often say, great the work you did with bearable people. I got more from them than they ever got from me. Like, they taught me so much, they embraced me. It was like a part of their family, and they're like part of my family, and it's a beautiful relationship. And it taught me so much and made me actually made me a better person, not just a better cop. I think it significantly changed me the path I went in policing.
But just the support they gave you too outside the courthouse and cheering you on, and you know, it's it's the roles were reversed. But for them to trust you for an Aboriginal personal family to trust a white person. It's really you know, it's very telling.
Yeah, well it's it was mutual. The love that we've got for each other, like the community and myself and I feel part of it and on them to be a big part of it. Got me in a bit of trouble in the police when we marched on Parliament a few times. But other than that and probably a lot of other things, but no, I enjoyed it. Let's talk about you there, your your life and describe if if someone came up to you and said, who the hell are you? How would you describe yourself?
Oh? The first thing wasn't canob woman? Your pronouns are she?
And who?
Mother of three amazing adult children, grandmother of two burroys four year old twins.
Congratulations, Yeah they love Yeah.
A writer, I just say I'm a writer. I don't actually where I live, No one knows who I am.
It's really good, which I love, critically acclaimed, award winning. You don't walk around copies of your book? No?
No? Yeah?
And your childhood where'd you grow.
Up down Gippsland in eastern Victoria and then traveled a bit with my father. Yeah, a lot.
Actually, you move moved around a lot, yeah, different places, different places.
You went to Rockhampton and Queensland, Malnois, Alice Springs, Love Dallas things, yeah, and parts of Victoria and like, yeah, just moved around a lot of schools, which is yeah. And what I want to say is we're black and blue. A lot of abitual people will resonate with much of what I've written, but I don't speak for everyone. I just speak for myself.
No, that's important. A friend of mine asked me on the weekend. I said, I was reading your book, and how did you find it? And I said, it's heavy reading, but I'm enjoying reading it. And I said, the thing that saddens me, I know this is Veronica's story, but there's so many stories like it.
Yeah.
Yeah, And as you've identified this is your story, there's a lot of other people have got similar, similar stories.
I can bring and a lot of people will resonate with that. And the difference between me and them is that I've written about it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And do you think by actually talking about them, writing about it helps other people they understand that they're not on their own way.
Yeah, because I think I think sometimes so with aberitual people, we don't usually have happy and unfortunately, so I think you know, you asked me about was a cathartic earlier, and I said, I'm not really, But I think in a sense that I don't talk about a lot of the stuff that happened to me, but I wrote about it, and so what's out now it's out of my head.
So I think, you know, if I can encourage other people to write their experiences and not you know, stuff that they've never told anyone before.
You touched on your grandparents' lives and you and I see that in indigenous communities there's generational trauma that can be passed out and people don't understand that. I know, people when they've challenged me if I'm talking about something, they'll gave But that was in the past. It doesn't happen now. But there's intergenerational trauma that gets passed down in communities.
Yeah, the thing is it's still happening now though it's not that you don't go and that's what I want to would the George Floyd matter as well in the US, so a lot of non Indigenous people in this country went. When they saw the visuals of it on television or whatever, you know, they're gasping and oh my goodness, that's terrible. What they don't know is it's happening right here in this country. But they, for some reason, they turn a blonde eye. And that's why I've always encourage people not
to become martyrs, but just start filming. And it's not a black and white thing. It's just filming when when you see cops harming people in the community. But also I don't want to get them in trouble, like them arrested, but let them know that you are filming, and tell the person who's been assaulted or been harmed that I'm filming for you.
Well, it can certainly slave people up. And you know, slap you've been a police officer and will delve into your policing career, and you know, that's the type of thing that will stop police misbehaving if someone's watching. But on that George Floyd, when they had the marches here, I wasn't long out of the cops and it was controversial circumstances and I got invited along to that march and David Shubridge, the Greens MP at the time was
coordinating it. And I've turned up there. People said that you come in. I knew it'd be controversial if I turned up there, and I ended up on the news. I look, who's here, the disgraced detective. And it was funny because I knew the cops. I knew a lot of the blackfellows, and I was drifting between the two. What really hit me being out of the cops for the first time in a situation like that, how confronting it.
He's seen a line of blue uniforms lined up and I'm standing with this group where I'm used to be standing with that group, And how intimidating it.
It's very intimidating if you've never but yeah, and we've been on that side. Yeah, you know, I used to do the same sort of work, public public order, your public order. Yeah, it's hard, it's difficult, and I think that's where I'm not scared of place. I guess because I know my rights. Really, I really know my rights, like yeah, but but for someone who doesn't know their rights, intimidating, it's very intimidating.
Yeah. Well, that's that's what I found on the day. And it was an inspirational day. I thought it was. Yeah, it was very moving when we walked all the way through the city to a park and everyone took took to one knellion.
It was all timed all over the around the world. Yeah, they had rallies all over the world.
Yeah, it was powerful and I thought people would buy into that, and it was a it was a wake up call, and I think some people sort of open their eyes to what's going on because it was a worldwide movement. Wasn't it from one one incident that people Okay, enough is enough and we're going to stop that. Your reference in your your second book, Cops of Cops of Crooks, I think tops of criminals, when cops are criminals came home cops of crooks.
Yeah that too.
When in that I think you talked about an incident here at Redfern where a young fellow was had his feet swept out.
Yeah, and there was footage of that. Yeah, yeah, you know, And that's what I'm what I'm emphasizing. If there wasn't footage of that, we wouldn't know about it, right, you know that we you know, I've had family members who have been assaulted by police and flogged up and back in the day prior to mobile phones where they could film it, and when they say it, it's not believed. You know, we believe you, we believe the family members, but unless you have hard evidence, it goes nowhere.
Yeah. Yeah, And with that incident, I remember again I wasn't that long our of cops and working for the Sunday Telegraph and they asked me to write an article. And I knew i'd get asked like who's better the right a cop and someone that understands who would degree the indigenous issues? And it was a very I didn't want to write it because I thought which sides of which side do I take here? But I was happy with the article. But one thing that I said with
that because I don't like seeing things escalate. And I knew how the cops would feel. If the cop was charged and convicted, they'll be angry and they'll look at the was their fault, and then the indigenous community would look if the cop doesn't get charged, they'll get angry. I made a suggestion in the article. I don't think it was taken seriously, but I've spoken to a few people and they agree that wasn't a bad way of dealing with it. What if it was a young cop,
young guy. What if you've got the two families together and sat down actually had a barbecue as ridiculous as sounds, and just try and think outside the square and instead of having that division. It doesn't mean that the person if for the assault shouldn't be accountable, but try to break down the barriers. What do you think of that sort of response?
So the cop, the family of the.
Cop, family of the cops, and the blackfellows come together, because it don't they've done some of that at Redfern where they've got that boxing Shane Phillips, tribal warrior, clean slate, without prejudice and it just breaks down the barriers. Yeah right, okay, yeah right now.
Faith in that? Really, I'd still I wouldn't be trying. I think as a copper, as a black copper, former black copper, I was invited to have these barbecues and no one spoke to me and want all my family and kids. Okay, so I wouldn't want my community members to go to barbecues if they can treat one of their own that I was blue, how I'm not going to try and not to swear here Now you can swear how the fuck did they treat my people? You know?
And also I'm trying to move away from police language, but I kind of when I'm talking to you as a former cop and other former cops, I find myself back and fall back in, yeah, because it's the language of policing, and so I'm trying not to go back and yeah using but I you know, I you know, I will, you know, I just find myself ending up talking like a former coup or a cop. And I don't want to use the language. I don't I don't want to reinforce the language.
It's clearly and we'll talk about it. But you've been scarred from it and damage from your experience in the cops.
Yeah. Also, I don't want to I want the listeners and the viewers to know that when I was a cop ten years I was complicit.
You know.
I wasn't the first one to put my hand up. I was just as bad. I was arresting people, I was chasing people, I was harming people. You know, I was involved in police pursuits because someone else has stolen vehicle meant more to me at the time than their lives.
Yeah, so pushing the envelope.
Yeah, which is which is wrong? It's like we know so a few years ago, there was a couple of Aboriginal boys in perf in a chase for police and they got out all they were in a foot chase and they jumped into a river to get away from the police. Why do they need to chase They knew who it was when I was pursuing the style veh because I knew who was in the car and my partner was doing speeds up to two hundred kilometers per hour. We know who's in the car. Let's get them tomorrow,
you know. I mean we're actually putting their lives in danger and other people's rights than danger boy actually pursuing.
Yeah, and look, I know that there's protocols in place now to stop that that type of thing where you've got to call the call in the Yeah, it can get together, get around.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's going to be I think I've written it in my introduction. And when cups of criminals, yeah yeah, yeah, I'd like I'd like myself to a whistleblower actually telling people what it's like inside.
Yeah, well, it can we put up front because we're going to delve deep into it. Yeah, and I said this to you before before we went on air. That Yeah, my take on the cops is I've met some of the most inspirational good people in the cops, and I've met some of the worst people in the cops. So we're going to be spraying cops here. But is it fair to say and correct me if you disagree? There are some good cops. Don't laugh.
You keep this in. Please keep this that's a fucking joke. You had a good, better experience than me, So that's what I mean.
Okay, So it's about relative to the.
Experience in Black and Blue. In the blue part I spoke, I wrote about a cops talking me. Yes, right, in when Cops Are Criminals, I wrote about that very same cop sexually assaulting me. And unless you've been on an inside.
Yeah, but you are the only person I've ever had online catchkiller. Is that reported a complaint against yourself?
Yes?
Okay, Well, let's we can have a laugh at some things. I'm going to have a laugh at that.
Yeah.
When I read about it, I thought, okay, this is interesting, tell us that story.
Oh so my my ex husband and that's the thing. I was a copper at the time, but I couldn't detect that he was having an external relationship outside of our marriage. So I thought my home was going really good. But yeah, he was, and it was going on for like twelve months apparently.
But well, I say, you're always the last one to know, always.
Yeah. So he left me for another woman, and so I did some unethical checks on her, and you know, and it was unethical and you know, not not what I should have been doing, but there were reasons why I did it.
Okay, So people understand what we're talking about here. With you, as a police officer, you have access to information on the computer that you can find out where people live and all sorts of details, which.
Yeah, everything, where they live, what tattoos they have there on their body, what they hang with.
You remember, you're diving deep. But it's a it's a responsibility that can't be abused. But we know it has been abused. And you actually did it because you have this jilted lover or whatever, and you want to find out who this girl that your man left you for, and you've looked up her deep.
Yeah, but potentially who was going to be looking like who my kids. So that's the main reason I did it, should have done it. Couldn't sleep and walked into the boss's office and said, hey, this is what I've done. I was hoping to just says, all right, go have a coffee and Ronny, No.
I'm sure it hasn't dealt No, it hasn't dealt with someone coming in the coman. Yeah, imagine if someone came in. Where do I go with this?
But this is like, yeah, so I did put in a complaint, a formal complaint against myself. Stick head, all right, stickhead. It went to Ethical Standards and rightly so I probably should have been demot but they couldn't demotor first year Connie.
So I go back to the academy. Yeah, I'll go back to Canada.
Yeah yeah. But anyway, so when I was interviewed by Ethical Standards, so we're having a DARB in the back prior to a formal interview and he's got to file the gay big that's how efficient I was. And he just got me at the back and said, don't say too much because I would have type it out. Yeah. Yeah, like I started with loose lips here. Yeah, but there you go.
Well, it does It says a lot about you as a person. It says a lot about your integrity and also your stupidity. I think tick all the tick, all those boxes.
Yeah, because I lost the what they did, they took away my oversays. So essentially four hundred and fifty a fortnight, which was a big loss. Yeah, and then the consequence of that is that I was financially struggling as a single parent of three kids.
Yeah, makes it.
I would rather go back to the academy, to be honest. Yeah, yeah, happy there, Yeah, no, not really.
Okay, let's let's talk about your life up until joining the police. Then why you joined the police? So, yeah, you had a bit of trauma in your your life. I don't want to trigger anything. You talk about what you want to discuss. But before you joined the police.
Yeah, So as a child growing up, whenever my father was driving a car and he saw a cop car coming here to say, drungles, which is our language for police, and us kids will just throw ourselves on the floor of the car and hide because and that was generational from my grandparents were terrified at police. My grandmother was stolen from a family by police, you know, So we had so much fear in the family and in our
community and still do actually with police. And I didn't want my kids because I was twenty nine and I didn't when I joined, and I didn't want my kids to have grown up with that same fear because I never you know, I started like I wasn't in fear. So I wanted to show them that cops can be
trusted and all that. Well, I'd only been a short time in the police as a short time on the road to general and I realized that in the fears that my people had, my family and my community were well, untruly justified.
Let's talk about the trauma associated with and I've heard this many a time from many people in your your position, where their family have been worried about their kids being taken taken off them. And yeah, one one family was the whole thing was always keep the kids clean and all that, because the authorities, whether that be the police, of miss mission manager or whoever turns up, might say, okay, I'm taking taking these kids from you. It's hard to comprehend, but yeah, this is, this is.
And this happens to it happens to our family right to still today, you know, welfare have the power to walk into your house as well as police. Police will acted on behalf of welfare and please And what I want to emphasize is some of the police that are attending these homes and determining whether that they're a good parent. These people are good parents. They've never they're only young, they're fresh out of the academy, they've never experienced violence,
they've never starved a day in their live. The Silver Spoon kids, you know, like they've never struggled, and then they come to an Aboriginal person's home determine that the child is not safe there.
One of the things in the book you were talking are talking about coming in and checking the cupboards, the cfare's food in there if there's not a food in there, and that that was.
They used to go the old girls, the arnies and that used to put empty tins and packets at the front of it so it looked like they had food in the cupboard.
Yeah, it's it's yeah.
My father grew up like on our mission like toys down in Southeast Victoria, Bangyana in our language. He grew up that whenever they heard a car coming down on the dirt road into the mission, all the kids will just flee, and he remembers hiding under one of our great great Arnie's dress at one time from police and welfare.
It's not it's not conducive to a good way of living or feeling comfort the ball.
But I also experienced the same thing. So as a domestic was also subjected to domestic violence and misidentified as a perpetrator.
And why is that?
I think when you're in a violent relationship or an abusive relationship, were you being so controlled and told to shut your mouth and if you direct, this is what's going to happen if they leave. There was threats made to me if I told my dad or my grandparents
what was happening. Yeah, So when someone does come, finally come and I never called police, the neighbors must have thank god, you know, I just and I was so grateful that they were there because I'd had enough, you know, getting bashed and I was hysterical and loud and crying out for help, and he was there calm, which is part of the tactic, you know, strategically you sit there or come and I'm the crazy one.
And the cops have come in and gone, oh, you're the emotional one. You're the Yeah, yep, that must have been hard.
It was hard, and it was not the first time. I mean, it's happened quite a few times with me.
And there's one portion in the book and it really saddened me when I read it because I'd heard the same tale from people up at Bearable. And this is going back only a generation, not that long ago. But the women on the mission were worried when the white fellows would come in because they would be raped, and they put sand in their vaginas. That's and I read that in your book. It made me sad when I was told about it up at Bearable. That's what used
to happen. And then reading in your book, just explain, explain this. It is horrendous.
It's yeah, yeah, and I hope you know that's what they had to do to protect themselves. And you can blame, you know, like colonization for that, because that was that's been happening since colonization, you know, and trying to wipe out the black race. And you've got fair, fair kids running around so and they're the ones that were stolen.
What what what we're talking about here is white men coming into the mission and just rape, raping, raping the women, and the way the girls and the young girls and the way that they would be protect themselves, put sand in their vaginas just.
And they get pregnant and then the children, the babies are taken from styleing from them.
So when we when we talk about this, and this is where I think it's really good sitting down and having having a chat chat with you, because I've spent so long talking to people Bearable, but others, other communities that have been involved, and I hear these stories and it's sort of it's just it drums it into me what we're talking about here, because when you speak to people that haven't been exposed to that or heard stories like that, it's very easy to judge and get, oh, well,
you know, what are they talking about. We're not racist in this country, or we haven't got a problem, but you've got the high incarceration rate, the early mortality, there's so many issues.
Yeah, So we make up three or three point five percent of the entire population of our own country, and yet we're the highest incarcerated in prisons and also in some prisons or the prisons in Northern Territory, there's one hundred percent young people Aboriginal kids. One hundred percent of Aboriginal children.
It's right, there, isn't it the figures, But.
It's very talering how police operate and the justice systems flawed because my people are targeted, surveiled thoughked to the point where they can't even look left and right without being picked up by a police. It's just like fucking leave my people alone.
It starts at a young age to like a young age where kids get you get fines, and yeah, they never get their license because different reasons, and virtually it takes a path. But you mentioned the figures, and I think it was Jaron Badget, who we talked about before the interview that has been on here. I think she gave me those figures once.
Jaron's an amazing person. She's been through a bit too.
Yeah, we've been through a hell of a lot. But yeah, she's a very impressive lady, a great, great guest on the podcast here, one of my favorites. But I think she was rutting those figures off because she did some work in the Northern Territory and one hundred percent of the kids.
Yeah, yeah, And also when I was a police officer with the intervention it cars to come up there and work. Fuck I am you know what I mean, I'm not going to be part of the system that steals my you know that very same. It just just baffles me, you know, like we're the most surveiled community people in this country. You know. Also, like you look at the reciptivism rate of help my people, very very high. So
it's like a revolving door and it's intentional. It's the they can't kill us, they're still killing us, so they're locking us up.
So with the attitudes you've got there, what made you want to join the police.
Or well, the first one of the reasons, I didn't want my children to go through the same years I had. I didn't want my kids to be throwing themselves to the floor every time a cop car drove out.
So you thought you'd go there and make a difference.
Try to make a difference and try to bridge a gap between my people in the average on community at like with police and try to say, hey, they're okay, they're here to help. And I was so wrong, SONI even so dumb. How I stayed in so long.
I don't know how old were you when you join the place thirty okay, so whether you've been doing up until that time, and I might you were the first person in your family that got through year twelve at school.
Yeah, and you'll find them. And that's a lot of families will resonate with that. There's always the first. And it's not to say that there's you know, your other siblings and aren't intelligent, so that we come from trauma. A lot with our lives come are trauma based, you know, and for what their reasons, they don't they don't have dreams, they don't have aspirations, you know. I have concerns for my family members when they leave their homes that they're going to be the next step in custody.
M hmm.
That do you have kids? Do you have that worry?
Nos?
Yeah, sorry no, no, but I'll get yeah.
But I understand. I'll relate a story that I was up It was away on holidays up up the case at Port Macquarie and I got a call from one of the barable mobs and it was Christmas time and they said to me what they're up to? And I've got on just up up the coast on holidays whereabouts I said, oh, Port macquary and they said, great, I've gone.
Why one of the one of the mob had been locked up and he was on the mission and they actually called the police because the police had turned up looking for him previously, and said, look he's here now and come and get him. Not to cause harm or whatever. They were just trying to do the right thing. He knew it was only a matter of time, and he went there. They called me and said, we're at the police station and we're worried that he's going to self
harm in the cells. And it's great you're at Port McQuary because you can come down and saw that out. Now you know the workings of police just I wasn't stationed there. I'm just going to rock up and sort it out. I got there and there was about twenty of them out in front of the police police station, twenty of the Bowerble mob, and they're gone, great, you're here, can you go? We want to go down the cells and see our couz. I've gone. It mightn't be that simple.
It mightn't be that simple. I walked in in the first person I spoke to. I didn't get much reception, and then saw the supervisor and I just said, look, the group we got out there, they're worried about one of the people that you got in the in the cells, and would it be a big impost if I went down with them and some of the family members and we go down there and they can just have a yarn, make sure he's okay, reassure him, and reassure them. And this was a good cop and he switched on and said,
not a problem. Look, let one they come down. But they were out the front for hours, genuinely concerned that if they don't get in and see their cousin or relative friend, that he was going to self harmed. So I do understand that, and that that was very real. That was very real, that thee fear that they had and the relief that they all had once they spoke to him and said, yeah, he's okay, he's not going to do anything. And it was simple as letting them go down the cells.
Now.
They had tried to get that done before we about me there and they were refused, and that's why they were all forming out the front of the police station that police, can we just go down there. So a little thing like that, but yeah, I got to say, it's not something I worry worry about with my kids. And when you put it that way again, it brings in.
You think of that before.
But that's what that's a beauty of sitting there talking with someone looking at from your your viewpoint because I'm ignorant to it, but it's something that yeah.
I'm not driving a car and you just know when crops come past the lights are on, just to automatically pull over.
It's not license, not not a good not a good way to live. So no, how what was the process applying to the police? Was hard for you to get in? And this is Queensland Police, we're talking about. What year was it that you joined?
Two thousand and one? Okay, yeah, no, I joined full interview process like everyone else successful got in. Surprise that I got in, actually yeah, my dad was really proud of me for doing that and getting in. I don't know why, but I felt proud of myself as well because I thought I was going to make these changes. But that's just maybe nove.
How did you find the academy?
The academy was hard because it's a stroke. There's only three other original people there at the time. Out of hundreds, So there's four Aboriginal people.
Did you support each other?
Yes, yeah, yeah, one of them will. So what they strategically did is they put me in a squad with another Aboriginal person. Yeah, and me and him were like best mates. And he's my little brother still and he's out of the job now for the same reasons I got out.
Yeah, well we'll we'll talk about that. But did you you feel in the academy that, okay, I will make a difference, like when at that point in time before you hit the streets.
No, it's the academy is different, like it's a whole you're very sheltered, so all you're learning and it's every four weeks you having exams and legislation and working on your physical yeah, shooting and firearms and driving, which I loved. Yeah, so it's a different world. When you're quite sheltered, you don't know what's happening. I didn't know what to expect when I first went out.
There was there any cultural training in there that you got.
Yeah, snooze face, We're like all that. Everyone who's just flaming back because it's done in the last week before you get your march out and all the other coppers and the full averagine people. We're the ones that were sitting up up straight and paying attention. We don't need the training these fellows do. These white fellows needed it, but they were sleeping.
Yeah. I hope it is improved, but I know what you're talking about a lot of the mandatory like if if it's done the wrong way, people just it's a tick and flick. It's not really so you learn.
I learned so much on the road and not in the first week.
Who did you get buddied with? Because when you come out of the Academy of Assuming Queensland, it's like New South Wales you get the buddy that it looks after.
Training officer, which is what I ended up becoming as well. But yeah, I was one with a female, Like there's like a form do you want to be with a male or female? I didn't really care when I talk about stuff that happened in the police. It wasn't just it's not just males. It's not gendered.
Yeah, well you were. You're up against it in two parts as Aboriginal, but also a female in a place and a single parent, and a single parent you're ticking a few few boxes to make it hard.
And you know, like, yeah, it was really difficult, really really difficult.
Did you think you stick it out? I know the first couple of weeks you think, well, have I got myself into?
But well, it was really difficult working with this particular person that my field training officer.
But I because most people, they tend to select people that are good at nurturing and training nurturing. What what was she was telling me to quit? But well, and how why?
And you shouldn't you should quit?
Where did that come from? Or what was that about?
I have no idea, I can't I can't speak for her. So I end up telling the boss. I said, hey, I need a new partner. I'm gonna I'm gonna have to quit. And so he put me with someone else who was amazing because I had a different experience.
And yeah, yeah, but that's that's an important part. Like when you join the cops, if you can get shanned the way by good people that can, it's critical to you.
Yeah. But also he was Smoan as well. He was a Smoan police officer, and so culturally, like we're both minorities. So he got me and I got him.
So okay, and that that made it easier for me. How were you received with the public when you get out there and you're shining new uniform as a black lady.
Yeah, it was good because like when when I went to attended jobs when it was my people, they all knew me because I was in the community. So there was an Aboriginal Community Health Service, my kids and I attended there. They'd have nateof wag my kids and I were there and most times I worked it and my kids would come. So the community were very involved with the community, accepted in the community, and yeah, and it
was really good. But it was good because whenever the jobs come up, but they they're home, they would say, ronic can come in, but you bullyman can't come in. So and I'd be sitting inside having a cup of tea Arnie up yeah, and all these white coppers yeah and not so like you know, there was like an old uncle sitting on the roof and I was like,
I've taken me unkidded and befire arm away. And then I saw I heard a job coming over the radio and all these coat tour lights and signs because uncles sitting on the roof, and I thought, fuck me, dad, they turn It's the whole fucking siege now. So I just went there because I was in a place vehicle, but I wasn't kidded up, and I just told him to get down off the roof. Get off the fucking roof. Sit on your own roof, you know. And but he had a smoke and he had no lighter, and he said,
run here, give me a light. And I said, come down and get it, simple as.
That simple thing.
Simple. And you've got all these they're all hide me on the car getting really fuck me, give me a light.
Was there was there any resentment in the community that you're across to the blue side.
No, because but the thing is, I try to treat everybody with the respect that I would like to be treated, you know, like I didn't treat anyone any different. Yeah, that's that's my motto. That's how I am. Yeah.
Yeah, okay, well look we might we might take a break now when we when okay, we'll get you out of here. When when we get back, we'll talk about the rest of your career, how you left, and your second book that you've knocked out, and we'll talk about whatever else comes up, we'll just have a you all right. Cheers