When a detective takes on the system: Graeme Simpfendorfer Pt. 2

The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side of life the average persons never exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

Yeah, I think that's why I want to come out and tell my stories to try and get a light on it that this does happen. And there's probably a lot of men out there in my age, in their fifties that have been through a similar experience, if not worse, that are still trying to deal with this on their own. And I hope that by sharing what happened to me and part of my story either gives them some comfort that they're not alone. But if they want to get help,

The Yeah, that's a good message to get out because sometimes that barrier is that I'm not ready to go to the cops, but you want help.

But yeah, you don't have to. You can disclose to one of the practitioners that the centers against violence that are around the country, or I think there's one eight hundred respect that you can dial. But you know, there's supports lines that you can call. But that doesn't mean that the police is going to get called. Yes, it's victim first.

Well, I think that's important and speaking to a lot of people in that field of criminal investigation, the victim's power has been taken away when they're abused as children, and it's important they have control on what the processes are. And I think people in that line of work will acknowledge that. And they're not going to railroad you into just because you reach out. They're not going to railroad you into. You've got to report this.

Yeah, one hundred percent. And you know, the people that have been doing it for a long time know that exactly. The statistics are not great on those that actually disclose, to those that then make a police statement, to those that then make it to a charge, then those that actually get into a court room, and those that are convicted. I think it's look again, I need to check on things like less than three percent.

Those figures flow around in my head. I think that's you're roughly on the right right number there.

So some of the some of the victims that would sit before me when I was in charge at the sex offense Unit, the first thing I'd say is what is it you want to get out of this? What is it you want? Because if you want a conviction at court, we'll try our dartist and what will work absolute butts off to try and get that. But the reality, hard reality is that, particularly if it's a one on one fence that's historical, you're up against it from the start.

And I think that's a fear and I hear it's time and time again when that knock on the door. And I like saying that when we're talking about this subject, that anyone that's offended in this nature just wait. You don't know how long it will be, but someone might come knocking on your door and we'll be police wanting to ask you some very uncomfortable questions.

Correct, And that's part of again, why why I'm here. You give people some strength ort to know you're not alone. There's plenty of us victim survivors out there that will support you and the police and hopefully the victims support services. But they need some more resourcing. They need some more. We just spoke about the amount of police resources. They need more. They need more counselors, they need more funding to deal with this because it's only the more that

Well, I've come away after being in this role for a long time and speaking to people from all sides of the law and the courts and the prison system and all that. If we really want to make a difference on crime, let's reduce child sexual assault. Because you look at how many people are in prison because of child sexual assault, or how many people whose life has gone off off track with mental health issues because of

Crime exactly, generational change. It's got to start. Why not start?

And statistically you talk three percent that starts from the reporting of it to the conviction at court, which is extremely low and disappointing, but that's the nature of the type of investigations. But also statistically, what thirty one years before a male victim of a sexual abuse child sexual abuse comes forth and disclay and one in five.

Yeah, they're just scary to think about it and quite confronting really to think that one in five met boys have been abused at some point one in three women or girls And it's scary stats. And that's got to change. And if we don't start trying to do something about it now, how many victims more we're going to see. We don't want it to be our own kids. But you know, it's got to start, and we've got to

And you feel like you're fighting that you understand the system, you've been part of the system, and it's still a struggle for you accepting what's going on with the system. Imagine people that have no idea what the system is all about and would naively walk in and say, hey, I wanted to disclose this. So we're all going to get this resolved. And it's not that simple. I think people would be interested in you taking this through the system.

Yeah, so first, first things first, you've got to have the courage to walk into a cop shop or pick up the phone and report. You know, I picked up the phone to a colleague from the border that has worked with me. You know, we've done entries forced entries together as cross border cops. To pick up the phone to him and say, hey, I'm reaching out to disclose and I want to make a statement. He was flawed. So it was the first step. But then okay, we'll

I put in perspective the things you would have seen and done in policing, and that knowing that you've got to actually sit down with the police officer. You understand the police. But that was so terrifying that you had a panic attack in the day leading up to.

So confronting because you're dealing with your childhood trauma.

Right, Okay, So it's not Graham, the hard ass detective sergeant, it's the child.

At that stage, I wanted it to be the hard ass put the mask on and then get clinical about it. And there was parts that I did, but there was parts. You know, I needed needed the tissue box to let it out because you're reliving it, so you're unlocking that trauma. And I think that's what brought the anxiety of it's

You felt like you're back. Is that forth in your old's right?

You know? And if I had my time again, I probably should have told others close to me that I was doing that, but it was something I felt I wanted to do on my own. Probably in hindsight now I've actually opened up too close friends and family that I should have actually got support to do that, but there was just something in me.

Someone longer support you just I'll do this.

I'll do it.

I've just given a statement. Yeah that's right, statements, you know.

And again the police then that that dealt with me on that day Blake and his colleague from They're amazing. They are very mindful of who I was and obviously the history I had, and I'd investigated just as much as they had. But this was the hardest one because I've got to play the role as a victim. But all the little things that I knew that needed to

To type up your own stuff.

What's I think Blake had said, Nah, I think let's just let the process take its course as it should.

Be, probably carrying a different more weight. If the police were there and yeah, then they could be in the witness box and being questioned about how you reacted.

Yeah, I think so we just followed the book and got to respect that that was just all by the book. But you know, after I can't remember after a lot of pages later, in a few hours of telling my statement to the police and signing it and walking out, I still vividly remember walking out of the Aubrey Crop shop and and the weight was gone, or explain that to me. Well, for so many you know, for so many years since that that lecture where it all came back.

Well, you would have struggled because you'd know what needed to be done, and I would imagine you'd be say, when are you going to do this? When are you going to do that? You would be pain.

Yeah, yeah, it was almost you know, these are the people that can corroborate that paragraph. These are people to corroborate that parent did the investigation plan, here's this is that And you know, look, I volunteered to the police, and I was very adamant, I said at the right time. I said, I'm I'm willing and I'm up for ringing him. And I hadn't spoken to this guy in a long long time, and I had come across him, but it had been a long time since I'd even spoken with

So this this was to gather additional evidence or corroborative evidence.

Yeah, and I hope to confront him and you take that power back, but obtain some evidence with the police's help with a warrant. They're going to warrant for me to ring him and record that conversation, so you know, to try and corroborate and give weight to my statement, which is which is confronting him over what I did in the hope that he would admit it or give some indication to something that would help the court form the view that it's beyond a reasonable doubt that that did occur.

How did you feel before making call, the.

Actual physical call of Kareem, Oh, my god, I thought I had an anxiety attack making a statement.

Yeah, I would imagine that would have been pressure.

I've asked people to do this before, and I now completely understand what I was actually asking them to do, because again you remember I said I locked it away, and even asking people to do that didn't bring it back for me. But here I am now as a victim, and I volunteered, and my intention was to try and get enough evidence that this guy had no choice but to plead guilty, and hopefully if other people come forward,

You cringe that. I cringe, like there's sometimes and I'm not you speak highly. Yeah, of course, yeah, that's just but my thing is and this is just the little things that you wait for your lunch after if you've got someone hanging on that.

And I never I never brought it up with him. In fantasy to them, but we'll.

Give I'll give him a wrap and the slap.

Yeah, yeah, but it was just it's just I think it highlights that for me, everything how sensitive for me. That rocked me. And again, you know, I've done all these investigations for nearly thirty years, and that rocked me. I'm like, oh god, I've now been pushed back to when. Yeah, because I was ready for that one o'clock. Okay, it's

And this only came from I learned from people that were my mentors, and that that says little things that can just rattle someone. Yeah, even if you're dealing with criminal informants, it's yeah, and it's not all about it's got to be on time. It's just those little things that you know someone's struggling. Just smooth as much as possible. Yeah,

And the impact that could have had on the phone call or then the evidence.

Because you're your rattle.

So I had to get my ship together and was fine. And as soon as I saw them, was all fine. And you know, clearly I've got.

No roube, but clearly that one go.

Yeah, but look reset and and made the call and it was all recorded and there's a bit to it. So initially I think, you know, and the initial part he was quite pleased to hear from me. It was almost friendly. I stopped that straight away because that was the tactic that Patrick and I had spoken about, and

Yeah, well I can see, yeah, you demean that change just talking about I can see the impact it had on you. But yeah, taking it all back right at the sharp end, isn't it. You're speaking to speaking to the person's Yeah.

And look, if it ended there, yeah, you know, I would have liked to obviously, and he was and he is charged. If it had ended there, I probably would have been half content as well. Yeah, half, Well.

That's confronting your abuser. You did that, and I can understand that would give you some satisfaction.

Yeah, it certainly didn't. And I think it was again another real important point in the whole journey of I guess trauma that tick. I've done that, I wanted to do that. Not everyone's up for it, and I'm not here, certainly sitting here saying that that's an option for everyone, because it's bloody confronting.

It.

Took a long time to get over it. And now every time there's a court process or a court date, or the anxiety of that being called and me having to listen to it again and owning that, the fear of that, I don't know why I fear it, but the fear of that foot and year old boy coming out and being upset. I've learned to just lean in and live it. And I don't know, I don't know what can trigger It'd probably come out of you, so

I think it's important messaging that you put across there that that might change what you want, what you're hoping to achieve. But you're in control of it. Yeah too, because I think the worst thing that can be done to it's retraumatizing the person if they lose control because

Okay, It's hard to sit here and say something so negative against a system you've fought for for so long. But yeah, look it's not a great experience, is mine. And that's for a number of reasons that, as you're rightly say, is out of my control. Yeah, and that's been that. It's without trying to put a label on this, but I've been revictimized every time. Yeah, so every time there's a new trial or a system, you're a hung jury.

Explain that to give the listeners, there was a person that came forward and made a complaint prior to you. You heard about it, you came forward, made a complaint, and then there's been how many others are.

I think in the first break down to two sections. I think in the first section there ended up being and again I'm not of sin because I have never told me so.

But they keep thinking separate. Yeah, so there's no contamination.

I don't even know their names, but I think there's around seven in that first block, right, that trial around a couple of years ago and was a hung jury. Yep, so went around again for a trial, so twelve months wait, which you're like. And initially then I was separated from that first group because I think of the phone call that was made.

Okay, So just to explain that a group of people have come come forward, they've all complained about the same person. There's been a series of charges. When you say the first group seven, they were all people that had made complaints against the person of interest, the person who has been charged went to trial. Your matter's been separated, so your trial is going to run separate to the first trial.

Correct.

Yeah, And that was a hung jury, which people I think listening to the podcast long enough I hung jury where you can't get a unanimous decision or a majority decision on it. So the option is it's no build, you don't proceed with it, or the option is that the decisions made to go for a further trial. So then it was twelve months waiting. You're at the end of the queue at this stage.

Still at the end of the queue, I believe because of this recording, and it was deemed that that recording would be prejudicial.

To the other others, okay, which.

Still blows my mind. But that was the ruling of the court. And so I'm at the end of it all, and we're waiting another twelve months because twelve months is the next available court date in the system.

So after the jury, after the decision didn't come back twelve months, they waited and there was another trial with the seven people, with the seven people who had made complaints against the offender or the accused. What happened that the court matter there.

That particular case for those seven. I believe he was found guilty of one victim and I hung jury on three, so they couldn't reach a verdict, and three not guilty didn't get beyond reasonable doubt. So one victim found guilty out of seven, which absolutely my hart leeds for all of those victims. And I've played all that out of my mind as best I can in that you know, how do you feel if you're the one that's got

The offender pleaded not guilty to the charges.

Yeah, that's right. I don't think he's maintained not guilty the whole way.

So okay, hung drury first trial, second trial, one guilty, three hung three, no decision made for three not guilty out of the seven and then an additional eight have come.

Forward in a separate Is that another trial?

Another trial?

Yeah?

Is he in custody in there?

No? I don't know, mate, I've been told no, which is a frustration, to say the least. It was obviously overwhelmed over the moon that you know, there's now nine and I think I asked, you know, is the immediate custody? Is he straight in jail? Like? I think the response was, I'll have to check. You have to check. This is you know. I would have thought that was something you'd know straight off the about and this is this is not the police, this is a support person. And look,

Well, yeah, as to former cops, we accept the decisions of the court, but you're sitting here as a victim, and so offer the opinion of victim that this person has been charged with multiple offenses, been found guilty of nine victims, and still is out on bar. It's not a good situation, not a good look.

And look, there may be a very perfect explanation, but I'm just not getting it at the moment, and that in itself is causing a lot of distress. You know that the lack of information coming my way has been quite distressing, to say the least. It's revictimized everything, and to the point I actually rang Blake at one point and was like, mate, I think I'm done.

You can So it's even at the point of breaking you because from the time you provided the statement to police, how long are we talking there? I think at four years, four years before before it comes to trial.

You delays retrials defense with all there's new material, we need time to digest that, and that turns out to be, you know, another twelve months. So my biggest fear around this bit was if this is delayed again for another twelve months, I think I'm broken. I think I need to look after my own wellbeing. I think I had enough. He's been found guilty of hate. But then there's a

Yeah, well that's the thing. You do know the system. You've been in the in the system, and that's still traumatizing you. So at the time we're recording this podcast, the trial judge only trial is coming up for you very very shortly. Yeah, a couple of weeks, and how are you feeling?

Very anxious? You know, I want to I want to tell my story. I didn't think going to court and telling it would mean as much to me as what it does before. I said, you know, it's okay if you change what your tension is, and I did mention there's been bad days. I've gone and done. I just want to move on. I want to advocate for change. I want to help men of my age that have been through the same thing. I want to help try

We're going to wait and and your frustration is not directed at the individual. It's a system, a system that you could get there on the day and there could be some obscure reason the trails pulled off again, and then the availability of the courts like ye, that'll be another another twelve months. That's you sit here.

Wondering when when am I? And you know, and with him now on bail, I don't think they can undo that or a sind that decision that that he's been found guilty, but he's on bail, so I don't know, I don't.

We don't know the full details, but that is hard hard to come again, it's just anecdotically someone's convicted of that many offenses generally refused.

But yeah, yeah, so yeah, look it's yeah, it's an interesting time. And look, I'm anxious for me. I'm anxious for my family that now I know my kids, I'm a partner and that's going through all this as well. It's going to come up and support and I was going to do it my own, but now I've lent into getting support. You know my brother that I have told her, he's he wants to come and help as well. So you know, we'll get through it. And to know you're not alone is probably the biggest piece out of this.

But it is those little things like a mentioned date. Like some people I've had victims, until it's explained to them, I think, well, it's all going to be decided on the date because it's a mentioned day and mentioned. There's just it's in the list in the court and nothing's going to happen that day other than a further date date set.

Yeah, And look, I want to I want to highlight and make it very clear I'm not only critical of the barristers, of the solicitors or the victim witness support people or Blake. They've been amazing.

I think that's important.

I think my point is is that they're so overwhelmed and overworked and underresourced. That's my point, and that's the change I want to see. They need more support because the retraumatizing and the living and the delays. It needs its own court. It needs a specialist sex offense court. You shouldn't be thrown in with all the armed robberies and all the murders and all the tobacco wars. It needs its own court for a number of reasons, to

No, Yeah, it is ridiculous how long it takes to get the matter matter through the court. Yeah, Hey guys, it's Gary jubilin here. Want they get more out of VI catch killers? Then you should head over to our new video feed on Spotify where you can watch every episode of VI Catch Killers. Just search for I Catch Killers video in your Spotify app and start watching today. If gain hypothetically, if the judge came back and found him not guilty, how would you feel personally?

That's the system. I know what happened. Yeah, he knows what happens. Yeah, but that's the system, isn't it. You've got to accept the ruling of the court. I was told a long time ago, particularly I think get Thomas side. One of my bosses was like, if your job is to put the matter before the court, yeah, job done. If you're going to get too hung up on sentencing or that's not in parody to this, you're going to

I'm glad that's the approach, and I think it sounds like the right approach to take. And you've made him accountable. It's yeah, the courts. We've been cops long enough to they it can go either way. You just you just don't know what's going to happen.

Happen with the courts and the elephant in the room, I guess, And these a conversation I've had with people who have come and told me, you know that this happened to me, and some people want to confront them, and you know, you know, particularly Dad's go I know what I'd do if this is happened to me. Look, I've just got to deal with that elephant in the room that's only going to get yourself and others into trouble.

It's not going to fulfill it's not It will damage yourself more in some way. I think. So that's that's a good message to get out. Graham. You said you wouldn't have come forward then if it hadn't been for that other victim coming forward. That was sort of a prompt. What do you think needs to change to encourage people to come forward?

I think that aspect of knowing that you're going to be supported, whether you're doing it alone or whether you're doing it with others. That was the trigger for me was you know, I need to support this person that's had the courage to come forward, and it just felt the right time for me. But I think overall, I think people just need to feel supported and the system needs to be a lot more efficient, that's for sure, because it just discourages people from reporting.

Yeah, what would you say, The people that suppress will carry suppressed trauma like you have, whether it's PTSD or something that's happened to you, like it's happened in the past. What's your message there, Like it's been the journey for you.

Yeah, I think that you can try and suppress and bury it as much as you want. And I did it really well for a long time.

I'm laughing, but clearly you did.

And I come to it it was locked. It was I didn't know the code to what unlocked that, but I guess the game where you play there is it eventually catches up with you, and it did for me. It eventually was unlocked. But once it was unlocked, I still then chose to try and keep it a secret. And I guess that's my point to those that are out there that have been living with this for a lot longer than I did, that have been living this for you know, say I've been living with me since

It's a good way.

You know, I'm not carrying one hundred percent on my own now, and they can't take it all. They might be able to just take five percent, or on a bad day, partner can take all of it. You know, that's a weight on her too, you know, and that's that's part of it. So that was a big part of that. That reasons in coming forward and telling your stories, it's actually made me better. And you know it's going

And telling people that the people that have supported you and the good family, the good friends and all that. If you tell someone then they're not supporting you. May be that friendship, all that relationships and other's strongly you thought that would be, but people close to you and I really do believe there's importance in sharing that sharing that trauma. Yeah, and you're not burdening people with it. You're just saying, hey, I need a hand now, yeah, a little bit of help.

And it's actually the first Some of the feedback I've had too is we understand you a bit more now, we understand why you are who you are and what makes you tick. And I've accepted that that's part of me. So that aspect too, was actually made a lot of us closer.

How do you think it changed what you've been through, like the trajectory of your life and you know, like you must have been competing or gymnastics at the high level. Was it a passion that you hadn't then you just lost it because of his actions?

Or yeah, yeah, I definitely lost it because of him. Know, I was coaching. It was my first job was to coach, so you know, it definitely changed it. It affected those relationships. It's some really really good friendships growing up and it's affected them. Affected my ability to go back to your hometown. I haven't, you know, I don't particularly look back in that part of my life with fond memories of course,

Well, I've made notes here of that, and I was going to hit you up with that very thing. That was your your ted talk and what you just quoted. Would the boy I once looked up to look up to the man I am today? How would you answer that?

I mean asked that. Funnily enough, I've asked that. Look, it's it's I hope that that well, I know, I won't hope that foten year old boy would would trust me, the version of me now you trust me, And I'd hope that it would be a safe enough place that he could come and say what happened and know that

Well, I've got to got to say this, and you've carried a lot of responsibility in your job, like I think all the cops that have served and done their best to make society a better place, and I know the sharp end of policing that you're working at. You're looking an advocate for police veterans and looking at that side of things again. Contributing your post career has been quite amazing. You've was it the logis you went to.

It's a bit embarrassing there. It's hard to listen to. Yeah, yeah, who would have thought, but yeah, went to the logis and you can tick that one off.

Yeah. Not many people when you joined the police think they're going to end up at the logis. But you went to the logis for your role in the show A Hunted where you were using your police police skills. And you've now set up a company, Peregrine, for looking at AI and the future of criminal investigations. You're complaining about your success of your kids sporting abilities. Now you've got to travel travel further. I don't know. I'm looking

Yeah, yeah, it could have. And you look, you're just reminded me of that time where it all came out, and that time of leaving policing and dealing with all of these things at once was a real critical time and I could have turned to many different things. And I did go into I did shut down, but eventually I had some decisions in myself to make and to look at, well, what am I going to do here? What am I in control of? And that's a hard it's a hard bit to understand, but even harder bit

Yeah, Well, full credit to you having the courage to talk so openly about what you've been through. And I think you are making a difference. And I know because I left the cops around the same time you did, and I think our careers were fairly similar in the way we threw ourselves into policing and it's dis orientating. And then you were carrying in addition, you were carrying what we've been talking about today. And I look at

So congratulations, Thanks, it's all we're going to do. Yeah, I really appreciate I really appreciate the Eye Catch Killer's team give me the opportunity to talk about this topic and putting some light on Yeah.

Well, thanks for trusting us.

Thanks Jeers.

I want to thank Graham for his courage in sharing his story, which I know is incredibly difficult to relive. I commend him for the important work he has done not only over his career but now sharing his personal story to keep bringing these issues to light. Graham has dedicated decades of his life to apporting victims and we support him. Now to our listeners, as I mentioned throughout this two part series, I need to reiterate that this