The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome back to part two of my chat with former bikey and maximum security in Adam Smith. In part one, we spoke about his early life, how I met him in prison, his time as a senior member of an outlaw motorcycle gang, and he's experiences in gold and supermax prison.
In part two, we speak about how a change of prisons changed his outlook on life and what he is doing since he was released from prison last year. Adam Smith. Welcome back to I Catch Killers.
How you doing good?
Good to have you back.
Be mate.
Speaking the other day, I said, what are you doing with yourself? And you called yourself an artist. Yes, so that's a that's a big jump from violent prisoner in so violent that they had to be put in the supermax in Golden what's the art that you're into? Tell us about that?
So art? Was it come across?
I guess you could say in the supermax when I finally got a pen and paper. I love to tell the story that I learned to the art scribe and my finger I was in the war, but that's not true. I used to just sketch a little bit, just a doodle and that sort of I guess that kind of created something and then I didn't touch on it. But when I went to Macquarie, it's some really good artists. Like when I say really good, I mean really really really good.
I've been to that the center there in the prison. Yeah, there are some great pieces of art.
So I spent a lot of time with I guess, two of the best artists, but not associating around art. We live together in a pod, you know. Yeah, Now these two guys in particular, they could have gone through and entered into the Archer bulb. They actually paved the way sort of for art programs, I guess, in the jail system. One of them in particular, who you met, Bruce Harrison. Things happened in jail, and they're out of people's control. He was destined to go and do the
last of his sentence teaching an art program. I think it might have been at Long Bay, but that changed. But I had the, I guess, fortunate luck of being able to watch these guys paint every day. I was convinced to start.
Well.
First of all, I was convinced to try and join their art class. But I still had so much cork. My cork ran for over four years, you know. And when I started drawing, they were decent drawings. When I look back on them, they're not so decent, but at the time that yeah. And when I showed when I showed them, it was like, well, you should start painting.
Did you Did you have a natural aptitude for art? Did you delve into it before you went to prison?
When I was younger, like, I was never really good at it. My brother was very good at.
Doing graffiti, like we set up big boards out in the backyard at mum and Dad's and little kids, and it was never any good. But I never had a thought about being an artist. But I played guitar when I was younger, and I was pretty pretty good at it too, and so I was always there was an artistic I just didn't realize it was.
You hadn't developed it or it hadn't come.
Out, and I still don't know how I do it.
Okay, well we'll talk about that. But we we left you in part one. You're still in super Max and now we're talking about your art. But I'm just going to I can do this. I suppose it's of course, of course it's a podcast, But have a look at that drawing that you've done. I spotted it straight away when I walk in. You bought it in It's Malcolm X.
Yeah likeness an oil painting of malcom X. Yeah.
Yeah, Well that's a good example of your art. So we'll talk more about that. But I wanted to show people, and if those that are listening that's showing, it doesn't really help. But what we've got here is a portrait that to me, it looked like a photograph of Malcolm X. We'll talk about that a little bit later, but I just.
Thought i'd show people, Yeah, thank you.
Just before we get in the Macquarie I just want to rehash, and I think we touched on it, that super Max has been renovated and there was sixty prisoners in super Max. Twenty had to get relocated and you got relocated to Macquarie Correctional Center is up near Dabba.
That's right.
Macquarie Correctional Center is a new way of handling prisons and that was the reason that I was in prison when out past First Cross to have a look at the way that they're treating prisoners. It's completely different to what I would call the traditional tell us about tell us about what you found when you walked into there. So you've gone from Golden the Yard in Golburen, which was a pretty volatile place, lots of violence, lots of yeah,
lots of stuff went down there. You got kicked out of there into Supermax and where you're living in a cell on your own and very limited communication to be dropped in Macquarie Center. Talk us through that whole process.
Yeah, no worry, Jerry.
So so they just finished booting the MPU, which was the whole segregation inmates. So that was forty beds that they had in there. So, like I said, there were sixty inmates, and so that twenty of us had to go around the state into segregation. What they basically call it, they call it rotation. So if you get either segregation for a certain amount of time or something they call seventy eight A, which is housing, which means they can't house you for certain reasons, so you'll go onto a rotation.
So I landed at Macquarie. You only really meant to stay at a certain location for a certain amount of time. I don't know how or why, but I ended up staying. I think I was well, I think I can't remember exactly, but it was a few months. And I was never meant to go up. I was never meant to go out into the main. It wasn't for gang members. It was meant to be for inmates that wanted to basically toe the line and develop and rehabilitate, and they put
gang members off the table. Now, my experience with correctional officers was pretty much all bad. There was a certain level of I guess respect that I was given by certain offices in different jails, but there was never ever a level of being treated with respect, yeah, or given your dignity mind that. So when I went to mcclarie,
I was obviously it was a big deal. So they had all the squad and because it's on the same property as Wellington Jail, which is very much similar to Goldban or silver Water.
Or something in the traditional sense of a prison, and.
It's on the same property, so I'm assuming that they must have had some of the squad from there as we will come. And at the end of this time, you can imagine what I've just been through. The first thing that I asked when I got off the tracks, so I get a TV? And they said yes, And I sat down on the end of the bed for about probably eight hours watching kids shows. I couldn't believe my eyes, you.
Know, just to get some form of stimulation, fl.
Like I was free. That's how I felt, right. I was still very unsure of my future in jail at this point.
So how far into sixty sentence that you've served at this.
Stage, maybe about so close to a year, right, So I still had no I still had no idea what was happening with my court. I ended up fighting another three trials after my After my court, they just kept trying to get me and get me, but I beat those trials. Brad Peebles, who's who was the governor of mcclorie at the time. He went above and beyond to give inmates an opportunity, and I think it probably could have cost him his career in doing it if it had gone wrong. It was only ever meant to be
an experiment. I don't know, did you know that?
Yeah, I know initially there was. It was bored in years ago and then then stopped and the Brad peoples very much promoted it and pushed it. And it's not this similar to like a Norwegian way of handling prisoners.
Just so our listeners understand what we're talking about here, your maximum security prisoner, and yeah, max security prisoners are praying to violence and you keep some tight control on them, a lot of lockdowns, you spend a lot of time in your cell super macs, you spend an extremely large amount of time in your cell, and you're not allowed
to mix with other inmates. So you've gone from that environment into what they had at Macquarie Correctional Center where they had dorms with twenty five maximum security prisoners in there. That's when when I walked into the dorm, I thought that would be a bloodbath. They're having twenty five of you all in there, just all locked away, access to
twenty five other other inmates. Yeah, but you tell the story because I was observing, and how did you feel when you were given that much, well, basically freedom within a prison as much as a freedom that you get.
Yeah, yeah, definitely. There was no certainty of my stay at Macquarie. I was online, I was told that it was made very clear to me as soon as I got there. Spending my time in supermax. This was massively concerning because their segregation units at Macquarie, the way I described it at the time, was an F one motel room compared.
To what from what you came to from.
So you have your dignity, you have you have you have room, you have a massive bench that you can work on, you have toilet, chaw, it's all clean, the same size as your little yard out the back. And this is in segregation, and you're treated well when you're down there as long as you respect, you give me like so it's reciprocated.
Okay, so this is the segregation section we've been Macquarie Correctional Center. What you described describing there, Yes, so distinct from the dorms where the general population got.
That's exactly right. So obviously Brad Peebles to do what he did, he had to have a great team. Now I'm sure that team consisted of a lot more people than I know of. Yeah, but he had Bywater, who is a stand up guy who has a reputation too for being a tough guy throughout his So he I think he was a boss of a squad. And this guy is an absolute gentleman. We'll have nothing but respect for him and the way that he conducts himself as an officer and the way that he treats inmates, hard
but fair. I'd say he had Brett Lee's and you obviously met Brett Lee.
So he's a character.
Well he's a character so or.
Just so the viewers can understand, this is the guy that went on to become the governor at the prison after Brad Peebles, he had gone on to another project. He's a psychologist and he runs with that every day. Okay, So, although there's always a certain amount of humor around whatever's coming out of his mouth, every word counts.
That's a fair assessment.
And he does that for a reason obviously, and there's only very few people that can pick up on that. So he's another one that has gone above and beyond to try and do things for certain inmates. Myself definitely. So with these guys in your corner, and then you have the intel side, which is run by a couple of officers.
So you've got.
Stanger Andrew Stinger, absolute absolute, dead set, stand up guy. This guy is very very smart, very calculated, but very fair.
Yeah.
So these guys you can understand, they run the intel, they can they know what's going on. Yeah, best intel in Australia and jail is that Macquarie. And then you've got standing there. Those two work together, but they maintain the respect of the inmates. I guess that actually matter to make him the system work.
You give me.
I'm taking on what you've what you're saying here, because it's unusual for a prisoner to be talking about coreactive services. Normally it's screws and the Blue and the Green don't mix traditional prisons. What I saw at Quarry Centa was that the respects went both ways. Yeah, and it wasn't sort of false respect. That was the creative services officers that I saw treated the prisoners with respect and the
prisoners were treating the creative services officers with respect. And it was different to any jail I had been in, and the whole vibe felt felt different.
Yeah.
So this, this creates a little bit of an issue in the jail environment because then you have people that want to be in this shale, but then they want to make out like their mister gangster this that, and they don't want to respect the officers, but they actually do, but they just make out. So that creates a little bit of a little bit of an issue. So you've got to sort of put that aside and just do your own thing, you know. Like I said, jail politics
are a funny thing. Always need to be able to make sure that you can walk into a jail yard somewhere because you might end up there.
Well, you said to me the other day that when the prisoners that were talking to me were the ones that could hold their head up and didn't need to they weren't worried what other people thought. And I got to say, there was some hard cases in there in terms of if I look at I know their reputation, I had dealings, I know what they've done and who they are, and they'd stand up in any jail, yeah,
for sure. But in this jail their behavior was changed and instead of bridging up, they were communicating and talking.
And problem solvers, you know. So there's a fair fuel of that.
It would always have to go out to diffuse something or just say, for instance, the jail started getting a little bit violent, they'd call a lot of us down to talk to us and say we need this to change. So then we would say, well what can you do for us? Like this is the way that we're working here, we're working with each other.
So we saw a.
Barter it down, you know, and then we back and we'd pull the pod in and say, well, this is what's going to happen because the jarl needs to be like this for the next few weeks, and there we'd make it happen.
You know, how long did it take you to get moved into a pod?
Okay?
So, like I said, I was never really gone, but they kept coming in saying to me, or if you want to sign your intel off, we'll let you stay here, and I just thought it was a ja I thought it was a stitch up. I thought I'd trying to set me up to make it harder for me. Anyway, I ended up doing this. At the time, I was not leaving any club, and.
That was what we're talking here. You've got to sign off any affiliation with the club because of gain coup in Macquarie.
Center, so anyone that comes there has to do that right now. CIG Central Intelligence Group, So for people like myself, you're on their radar immediately anyway. So they're the ones that are responsible for the function functioning of New South Wales. I'm not sure if it's Asrail or that's New South Wales. But they said to.
Me, you're a liar.
Why you're there, They said, basically brought people to take a chance on you. Why you're there, that's fine, But when you're fuck up your ours and you're gone straight back to where you come from.
Okay.
So I had that in the back of my mind the whole time, and then they just slowly integrated me to the pod. They didn't just put me out the vis let me out at times and integrate with people slowly.
But the way you describe it, Adam, it's like releasing the line back in.
The Yeah, and it completely wasn't the case, you know.
Yeah, but that's they let you in, they test Okay, you spent a half an hour in there, there was no trouble, come back out, okay. So that process how long? How long did it take.
That process?
I guess it probably lasted around two to three weeks, And right up until the point when I walked into the pod with my trolling, I still didn't believe it.
You know, you didn't believe you'd be released, or didn't believe in the environment that you'd be.
No, I didn't believe that. I didn't believe that what was being said was true. Jail is a place where you be told many different things from someone that you will believe that should be telling you what you meant to hear. But I don't say from an officer or a person of a certain level. But it's not the case. You know, it's a very dark and distorted place, and you're never safe anywhere, like meaning that your position in any jlity is never Someone can just put that tick
into the computer and you're on a truck. And my circumstances were I was like, what's it going to take nothing? It's going to take nothing. And so I had certain people on my side, but the majority of the officers and that were like, you're letting this guy hit into our prison, you know anyway, So then I come out of the present slowly have a time. I mean, it took the whole time for a lot of them. I think maybe they just thought I was full of shit. I've always been very respectful.
And what do you think that the naysay is going through their mind? He's just taking the piss out of us. He'll get in there and when he's got an issue, he's going to light someone up and yeah, yeah, and then we'll send him back. So that would have been and given you history, it's a reasonable for him to have is just bullshitting to us, and let me in the dorm and when I do create havoc, it's going to be a big one. Then you can ship me back to super Max.
Yeah, And I guess you know, I understand why they think that, because, to be honest, I always said to myself that and do whatever I can to make sure that I keep my hands to myself.
But if someone puts their hands on me. Well, that's different story, you know.
And the problem that there was it was either going to be nothing or six o'clock New Style, Do.
You get me?
And that's not what I want to do though, and that's not what anyone wants say. I had, like, I worked on myself very hard.
You know what stage was your mindset changing that, Hey, I want to turn my life around. Was it when you saw what was on offer at Macquarie Center. Was that something that changed? What was the thing that.
So I just want to make something very clear. So I've just sat here and you give a lot of officers a good rap, a lot of correctional officers. The start of this change does not start with an inmate. And if anyone has the expectations that that's the case, you're completely wrong.
And I can explain why.
Yeah.
So we come from a place where your battle is stay alive. There's Westpac. I only got the spine out of their daily So then I come to Macquarie, where there's where you're expected to toe this certain line. Right, but you're still in the same environment where you're dealing with the inmates, and.
You've crossed bathro with these inmates.
You might have gone the water with its inmate at some stage two and you're both there trying to do the right thing. Now for an officer to say get a to you in front of the boys and expect you just say good a back after you've just got a truck off a truck, when the only thing coming at your mouth that officer is get the fuck out of your dog. Yeah, now they're asking for something different, right, but as history shows, they've never given us any reason
to give them respect. You show them respect and it would be used against you. Right now, you turn up to this place and your question if they're stitching out because it is not right. Yeah, But over time you realize that they actually care about their job, They care about trying to revealiitate you. So they must have chose a team of officers that were to grow there. And over time, when you work that out, so you gain that initial respect from the officer, that will go the
way and over time you'll build a rapport. That doesn't mean that you go up and you sit down and you say, oh, how it's dinner last night.
Yeah, you're not best mates, but there's respect.
But how are you today? I'm fine, you know, what's that you're carrying with a piece of artwork? I just did it here down here, and then you know, like I had officers by an artwork of me, you know, And I found my jail to be very easy. And everyone that works this out and then returns that it's only minimal respect. It's just common courtesy. How are you today? I'm well, thanks, how are you? You're not stepping outside
the boundaries, it's going to put you in trouble. Through jail politics, there's always going to be someone that will say, oh, this guy was too friendly. Yeah, but it's usually them trying to cover up something that they've done somewhere, you know, the old deflectioning trick. Like not many inmates are smart, you know what I mean, Like, there's not many. And from that point there, when that's shown in the first place,
then it's given back and that it can grow. But it can't be expected from an inmate when he's been given nothing but shipped from this person in blue every single experience he's had.
I'm hearing what you're saying. And so it's a slow process where the trust is built up and the respect is respect is gained, and.
You've got someone that has has a lifetime of behaviors that he's trying to change, So that officers also needs to acknowledge that there is going to be error and not write that person off of that error, but allow that person to change. As long as he hasn't across the lines, that doesn't permit him to stay at that correctional center.
Well, look, I've got to say from I was surprised by the officers that I got to deal with, and just a cross section of them. They were genuinely invested in what they were doing. Yeah, yeah, part of it is self serving. They said, our job is so much easier here if we go across to Wellington. We're dealing with all this shit and trouble that happens in a more traditional jarl, and you come across here and there's less shit that goes down.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
And there's some standouts, like obviously in every field of everything.
You know.
So I've mentioned a fair few officers, but there's one that there's too. I want to mention one in particular that really drove so I implemented an NA program into Macquarie.
Right now, this is pretty big because that's some statement.
What did that involve.
So if for the.
Viewers, if they understand how NA works or AA works, it's the same sort of system. The only problem is that being in a jail environment, there's not much anonymous about it because they need to know who you are and where we are. But we were allowed to conduct ourselves. Now, at one point I had over ten percent of the jail in attendance voluntary. All right, that's pretty big numbers of boys that actually want to try and change get
off the gear, yeap. But Elizabeth says, right, she was in our corner from day one, right, and the other officers that I did mention before, and they helped to drive this thing, and why I was. I'm pretty sure it's probably folded by now. I hope it hasn't because it was going to be a massive thing. But Elizabeth Sears, she really drove it and to a point where they tried to stop it. But there's been a massive response. So we've got boys that have been heroin addicts and full recovery.
Now that's a good changing their lives. Mate.
And you mentioned Liz Sears. I can speak about her. She sat where you're sitting. She came on as a guest here, and actually she opened eyes to a lot of things about what's going on in the prisons and different ways of doing it. Because I was looking, okay, well you've done the crime, you do the time, didn't really think much much about it. A couple of blokes that have been in have sort of said to me, will you treat this like animals? We're going to come
out behaving like animals. But what Liz explained what they were doing at Macquarie, it just sort of blew me away. It made so much sense.
That's right.
So I want to make it clear about my positioning coming on here today. I want people to understand about people that have committed crimes. Fair Enough, they need to be punished for their crimes, but if they want to change their ways, they don't need to drag that round with the rest for the rest of their lives, right, weighing them down and forcing them into a corner and given an option to rehabilitate and grow. Right if the
public knows this and supports this system. Just for example, I'm not going to mention any names, Robert, but I was in that jail and quarry with some heavy hitters.
Mate.
I'm talking on these streets of Sydney and they're big hitters. Yeah, yeah, very very big hitters, and they're doing the same thing. They're better in their lives. They're getting away from the rubbish. They want to come out and have a fresh start. They want the best for their kids, they want the best for their grandkids. They've been given an opportunity and they're taking it and they're using it and they need to be respected for it.
And when they come.
Out into the community and they have a go and they're trying to do the right thing, they need to be given them doors. They need to be shown that they can use what they've done to go and do better and do more. And these guys are really trying. So if the public knows that this system is available, Like, let's not forget that we're based that we're built on a background of convicts. We're always going to have a
jail system. But if we can rehabilitate inmates, especially ones that have been through the ropes, they can come back out and they can be someone to these young people out here.
You know, well, I know some of the people that you're talking about. And in the time I spent there, I got to speak to them, and yeah, I was surprised that I was even speaking to them, And yeah, I'm not naive, but I thought it was genuine in what they were saying, instead of you leave me in this other system. I was angry, but I've seen here. What the fuck? Why have I wasted my life? I want to turn my life around. Then they to me, they seem genuine and I'm not naive. That was, of
course I understood. But the other thing the prison does, and this is my and I've had a couple laughs because the humor is still there, and a couple of laughs at my expense.
Of of course, you got to expect that.
Were you one of the people yelling out there, let that go. But there was a couple of funny, funny and weird comments. But anyway, as you expect walking through prison. But they said, in those dorms, living in the dorms, where you're picturing an area probably I don't know, three sizes of size of a tennis court for twenty five twenty five people. There a courtyard out the back where there's some gym equipment. You get to stay out there
till nine o'clock. If you need to stay out and some of the inmates are saying, this is the first time I've been able to see stars for years, because they can sit out there, lockdowns at nine o'clock when they have to come in. You're cooking out there, you train there. The toilets are set up, not for bashings. It's a single booth thing shower and toilet, and people are assigned to it. Kitchen that barbecue out the back. Noweople might say, well, that's too much luxury for it
with the crimes that they've done. Of course, what blew me away was the fact that if there's twenty five ore there and one's being a dickhead, instead of the usual jail justice where he would have been bashed or shived or or whatever and dealt with, you get a group sit there and negotiate through and go, look, we can't put up with this type of behavior. Then you actually vote them out of the pot if they're causing too much problems. That's negotiation skills. That's the type of
skills you need for society. Those little things were the type of things that I took away from it.
Yeah, yeah, definitely. So this is a perfect time just for me to clarify when I told the boys not to talk to you. Yep, So little did you know at that time that I actually had plans to come out here and talk to you, to try and to push this and I want to eventually try and help young people that are going into gangs. And but beside that point, most people in a jail in environment can't handle themselves. So essentially in that environment where lorified babysitters now.
As in the people that can handle themselves look after the people that can't handle themselves.
That's correct.
Now, in another jailed environment, we wouldn't be doing that so much because there's no benefit for us to do that. It's only going to make us week to align with someone this week. In that environment, we're keeping the peace,
were making sure things are working and things are flowing. Now, these eyes if they had to come in and thought that it was a good idea to talk to you, and then they were on a truck tomorrow in the silver water, and then they got the silver bar and they said, talking to Gary Jubilin, he'd be walking out of him. He'd be walking out like a dartboard, you know what I mean. So that was the reason that I did that then, so they had nothing to do
with people not talking to you. So the voice that did talk to you have enough respect and enough weight within the jail system that they can justify what they did. They didn't do anything wrong. The discussion that with you wasn't anything that couldn't be discuss but there was all there was also aside to it, and the jail benefit from them speaking to you too.
Yeah, I look at it was a difficult thing and I had no idea what would go on, and that worried me because corrective services had no idea. When I said what's going to happen, they said, we have no fucking idea when you walk in. But yeah, with the benefit of hindsight, walking in the pod was probably unannounced. And that's why I think, then may it be known what I was doing there and speaking to the people
and what you've said too. I was conscious of that because I know I'm going in, but I get to get to leave and some of the some of the blokes that were naive and talking to me, I'm thinking, this is not a good look. The heaviest, the people that I would identify as the ones that can hold their own felt more than comfortable talking talking to them because I knew it's not going to come back on them. There was a few people, so I understand what you're saying.
And even that incident we're talking about where you were telling them not to pull back, and it was fairly obvious that I wasn't well liked in there, but I was worried about a couple of people that were thinking what the fuck is going to happen after I walk out? We're talking, So I respect it and my mistake there, that's that's your home, and I've just walked in there, walking around in the at the gym and the oval whatever, that wasn't as bad, but that was walking walking in
your home. So didn't make that mistake again.
No, but I think I think it was a good thing that you did.
I mean, obviously say you've had both sides, yeah, I mean I remember hearing one of the boys real about you so saying that you're a copper. But now you've been charged and you want to jump on our side now and you want to do this right?
Yeah.
Now, we're human beings. We adapt. Why do you think that we can go into a yard like the yard at.
Golden and survive. Yeah, why do you think our grandfathers went to war and slept in trenches for the blood.
We're humans.
We adapt to every situation. You had to do with that, So you were that, but you're doing good with what you took from that. So back in position, I don't think you had the opportunity to see outside because you're a police officer.
Well that's and yeah, I own this. And my thing was I used to lock people up, get given another case, and then follow that case, and then I wasn't thinking what happened behind the behind the yard, behind the gates. But no, I think it was an interesting, interesting experience. And I also went into Wellington and the attitude was there was completely different. When I'm walking around there. Well, still the comments, but a little bit more intense when I was in there.
But yeah, so you can understand why though, Oh it's a different.
So so those boys, those boys have to make comments, you get me, they see you walk past, they're in a yard, they're in a stand up yard. They have to go a coup of dog, keep walking, Yeah, because if they don't, it's I don't turn around and go what are your fucking copper? And then the rest of the boys hear it and we're talking about some weak minds.
Yeah, I know that it could set off.
It'll swell until it happens.
Yeah, well, I wasn't sure how long did it go on because I know there was a bit of turmoil when I first came into Macquarie and yeah, I don't want to cause the dramas here, but yeah, it worked out and I think it was worthwhile for everyone. And I got it, got a got a message out. But it opened my eyes, it really did. And another thing because I'm thinking, have I had the warl pool out of my eyes after spending time with you guys for
so long? But I spoke to a person who'd lost his son in a murder and he made he made the point Ken Marslow, it was a bad, bad, one armed robbery where his nine year old son was shopped during robbery a pizza hut and no need for it. But I said that, Ken, Ken, am I missing the point here? Have I gone soft? Like I'm thinking what they're doing here in this prison is definitely worthwhile? And he said it's about getting smart on crime, Like these people are going to go out, do we want them skills?
To go out. So if they go out and don't commit further crime, there's less victims. So no, you're not going soften. Yeah, that was from a victim's point of view that I wanted to get. So I've been championing what they're doing in there wherever I can, and I'm not naive, And even you guys, the inmates in there, would say this isn't going to work for everyone, Like there's that ten percent that you're not going to change.
That holds relevance to everyone. Yeah, right, And it depends where everyone's at in their time. Some people, there's some prisoners that can't adapt, they can't change. Yeah, right, jail's easy. Like if you get like, people might spin out when I say that. But for me, even in a jail where anything can happen, that's that's your only Can you focus on that all day all night and it might get more volatile and more twisted up and everything, but
that's what you're doing. Get up in the morning, get in the yard for so many and you come back in that's it quarry for me, Like, it was great because I got up and I got the able and do things. I was painting at a mad job, and I found that great. And then you come out into the real world and it's real.
Well, one of the prisoners in there said, I was talking to him, and he's gone when I go home at night, and I'm thinking that, But that's how he was looking at the pot that's going home. But they had you studying for six hours a day, working for six hours a day, and given some freedoms. Yeah, and what difference did that make to you from going from the traditional tough yard in Goulburn too into an environment like that. How did that change?
Listen?
I was already wanting to change anyway, you know, like I was wanting to I was paying it all up and everything that I've lost, you know, Like I mean I had, like I had a beautiful little family and that and even though like I've still got my kids and like I love them to death, they love me too. And there's this massive time frame that I missed out on photos and at hung I can just stare at
because I can remember that time. Like my daughter, My daughter's a little machine, you know, And I just look at this fight and sometimes it can just make me crumble, you know, because I can remember that, and I can remember how much I loved it, and it just hurts me to think that, you know, that I went that way still with that, So that's sort of what hurts
me the most. But as far as that point when it comes time to change, mate, when I was hitting super Max and and after having that little dream that I told you about there and I just thought, what am I doing?
Though?
What am I going to do? Am I gonna? Am I going to go back out into a yard? And am I gonna? And this is what I do. I elevate myself to whatever it has to happen, you know, And sometimes I fake it to make it, but I get there and I don't even know what I'm capable of until until.
It goes there. But I have that ability to adapt. Now.
I knew that if I went back out into that yard, I was going to have to elevate more, or if I wanted to go and take the same traction no matter where I ended up, And I knew what that meant for me, and that was to guarantee the one of the two things that was going to happen to me before I went to jail. So that was time to change, you know. But to change, I had to heal too, and that's where this art come into it.
Okay, so with the art, and we spoke earlier on about it, but that's given you something to channel your energy. Yeah, Like I'm a big believery ying and Yang. You've got the hard side, You've got the soft side is this You're channeling the soft energy into India paintings.
You know.
Like with this is like, I have trouble expressing my emotions. So and I'm either here or I'm there, and like and depending on the emotions depends on the way that I'm going to hold myself. Right if a tear comes to my eyes as a dangerous situation because I feel like someone will said that tear and and think I'm weak, So I'll elevate to a situation where it'll probably take someone special to stand there, you know. And I hate that and I hate that person and it made me sick.
You know, I didn't like that person. I knew I didn't like that person, and I thought, who, how can anyone love me or like me if I don't like this person? And that's where this come into it. So I got to express my emotions with having to let it out. I just grab a paint brush as I start slapping around. The only thing I did do was I helped myself back. Was I was too neat when
I was learning. If I really wanted to let my emotions go, I should have just frown that brush around, you know, Like I know like I'm doing now, And it's the best way to deliver a message that you want to get out or to relieve yourself or something. And color can do Color can do this. So color has an association in our brain that allows us to either feel a certain way when we see a color or react a certain way. And I've really embraced it.
I can see how you're talking now, the comness that comes across with you. You're talking talking about your art. So is that striving to make a living from your art? Is that what you're doing?
I would love to make a living from my art.
So, like I told you that, I've been studying and everything, and I would love to get into juvenile corrections.
Okay, tell us that we've had a chat, but it wasn't on Mike, tell us about what you're studying and what you're doing there.
Okay, So funny story. Me and an old enemy from a different gang. We did a search for a youth work together at the.
Jail, right, okay, so they.
Used to hear it. Well, they used to use me every time a new gangman would come.
They come, they get me to go down and talk to them to try and explain the why the jail is anyway, So the day I had to go down and speak with this lad, we end up becoming so close. It's like and I got a lot of love for him, you know. But back on the streets and Mount Drew, it thinks she used to be very dif print, you know. Anyways, we need to search for a youth work together through correspondence, and it was something that was I guess they had
to get the bricks and mortar out to make it happen. Yeah, yeah, that makes.
Sense, Yeah, to let you you guys do that.
Yeah.
And so then there was a big outcry over in the jail about people everyone want to do.
To do it as well, but they weren't allowed to.
And it was like, well, well you've got to be a gang member or you know, they're not meant to be here.
That's you get me, right.
So there was this is politics of a different, different level in the well.
I guess this is where politics collide.
Okay, so they're giving you guys because you've been so bad and your gang members and you shouldn't be in here, but you're allowed to do it. Why aren't we allowed to do it?
But they had a reason for it, Yeah, and they and it was paving the way for them in a jailed environment. Fast thinking people don't get to absorb this information and sort of try and take a back to have a.
Look at the big picture.
Yeah, but it had to be done first, trying to get something over the line to give inmates. It's a dead end. Yeah, So it's a hard slog.
And why do you say that it's a dead end.
Or well, you're talking about saying an inmate that's got in charge for a double murder. Yeah, right, and now he's asking for funding, not just any funding, he's asking for ten or twenty grand. Why he's the inmate to study so one on the clock back no way in the world.
Well that's the public. When I say the public, there's a view of public view that why are we rewarding people for going to prison? And that's the type of pushback as well. Do it And yeah, understandable counter argument to that is it, well, if I look at it this way, let people study when they're in prison, because if they come out and that stears them in the
right direction fiscally. From a monetary point of view, the money you've spent on getting someone in education if they don't reoffend, is money well spent because the amount of costs. I forget the figures. It's I'm throwing this out there. Could be completely wrong, but just from a memory, it's like one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year to house one.
From memory, I think it's a one hundred and seventy one or one hundred and sixty one thousand a year.
Yeah. Yeah.
And then on top of that, basically every time INMKE it's on a truck it's like eleven hundred dollars or something that's a revolving doal.
And the police and the impact it has on victims and the victims of crime. So to me putting money in to help educate people, I don't think it's soft, as ken Marzo said, It's not getting soft, it's getting smart on crime.
That's right.
So now inside mcquarie Correctional Center, Yeah, they run a traineeship which is essentially a diploma but workplace engagement. So the guys get to go down with the Zappos and do their work hours. So while they're inmates, they're actually getting out with a diploma work qualified to go and do work in the community services field. So now it's now it's implemented into the jail system.
To me, it make sense. The trick is where you go from that jail system, and you were talking about it, you were scared of getting out of jail than you were going into jail. Talk us through that, because I don't think people realize how terrifying it can be when you're used to an environment and all of a sudden, I've been released into the world.
Yeah. So yeah, so it's really tough. I guess, Like.
I guess, if you want people to succeed in life, you have to you have to take a chance on them anyway, you know, Like I think some of the
hardest things for people to get their head around. And you see someone that's been broadcasted over the news, and let's face it, they have to sell papers, right, So this so let's just say in a for example, Now say for instance, the news get a hold of this guy going in to do one two free, but the papers have said one two free back then, and so there's a massive like a confliction.
People are like, but hang on, why would you like that? Could I do that? When he done this.
Out you've got the headlines.
But see then these guys go and do this, and they're given that opportunity to go. Do you know how many people that have left Macquarie for Extiononal Center and have succeeding. They're actually succeeding. So by me coming on here and talking is to get that message across. So right now, I'm still doing a diploma. I applied for my working with children checked while I was still in Cussy. They got knocked back. Right, I don't have any domestic
violence crimes. I've never like all my crimes and they are all club related. I'm not excusing any of it. Not my crimes are my crimes. Now for the public to then be able to accept someone, this is why we touched on why people go into dark places and why things happen. So I'm not excusing my behavior, but I have told you there's a reason that my behavior did go down this avenue and now I want to take everything that I've learned and I want to take it back out.
And I want to help and I want to have an impact.
I want to go into juvenile corrections where there's all these young guys I might not get through to. If I can get through to one, you think about that family. You think about that mother and father. How grateful love we to get their kid back. I just done time with eighteen year old kids that are doing murder whacks for this postcode bullshit.
Right.
I don't even know what well they're in. They're just running around. They're listen these gangster wrap. They see all this that like, they see the way that we conduct ourselves and that when we're out and gangs and that sort of thing, and they think it's great and that's
what they want to be. But they don't know what it is right until it's too late, until they've torn their family apart, until they've ruined their lives, and when they do realize what they've done wrong, they got to live with that.
It might be easy.
Then, it might be easy when you've got the boys there with you, when you're on the drugs, when you're doing this, when you're doing that. But when you get back to being you, when you look and you're looking at yourself in the mirror and you're wondering who you are and you're wondering why you know or for something so stupid. If I can get into t all these people, it's not what you think is. Outside looking in is much better than inside looking out.
I can assure.
You well, like with what they have at Macquarie, which is good for where you got to that, but obviously the ideal way would be preventing people going in there and those get those young fellas and I bang on about it here on the podcast, but people who have got that lived experience carry more weight with the kids that are going off.
That's right.
If you've got let's call a young punk going I'm going to be this, I'm going to be that. I'm going to be everything you were a biking this and that, and you can sit them down and go mate, I went down this path and this is what happened to me. I'm telling you exactly. There's other paths that you can take. There's no glory in.
It and depending on and my guess is that a lot of these people are probably dealing with something that I was dealing with being identity issues too, and it's just natural part of growing up. I just think that there's it's just a different way, and I think we can. I think that we can try and do more, do more to prevent it. All we're doing is making the work harder for the police. We're making it hard for
the families to get on and live. Like, do you think about these what are the kids that I told you about that I was doing time with. Now there's a reason that that they murdered whoever it was, and it's not because they were a good person. But what about that person's family that just lost their son because he had some kind of idea that got into his head three months ago and he thought it was this and that.
Look, I've seen the chaos that surrounds. Yeah, one person being murdered or severely severely injured, the family of the victim obviously, and the friends of the victim.
You're multiple people, well you know, more than maybe that I don't know, you know.
And then the offender's family. Yeah, that might be your parents. I'm sure that. Yeah, if you did something that they're just gone. Oh no, something that would have kept you in jail for life, which there was always always a chance with the life that you were living. Yeah, their lives are destroyed, your kids' lives. Like yeah, there's so many same many things earth.
And also but also too, like I told, I come from a beautiful family. I come from a very strong family. I kept myself separated from that, not entirely, but for a veryvery long time because there are for the reasons to do, and also with what was going on, and like years and years ago, there was a pretty wild incident that come to mom and Dad's house where we used to live, and you know, I promised myself that
that would never happen again. But now I'm back with them, and it's great, and these things are really good.
You know.
Yeah, I'm so grateful for the second chance, the second opportunity that I'm not going to say that I was given because I gave it to myself. I did it myself, you know, like the odds were on for me not to succeed, and I proved so many people wrong. And there's so many people that I'm grateful for the experience that and I'm still experiencing it. Like I said, I don't quite know who I am.
Yeah, well you know how long you've been out for eight months? Okay, so it's all new to you. Yeah, so feeling feeling your way?
Yeah. So.
But for like, I'm doing a lot of social media stuff around my art and that Now.
Where can people find find your art?
Okay?
So on TikTok at at see the Art crim so actually so a T s Y. That's my art signature. For obviously promotional reasons to do with it. I called myself at See the Art crim Okay. Now, part of it is going to be for me to be able to maybe influence other people to get involved with art if they've been through drama or other sorts of things. And obviously I want to showcase my work. So I've been going live each night at eight o'clock, which is a bit weird because I don't understand how TikTok works.
I've got mate, I've got people coming up on the screen and doing these battle things, and I'm just sitting there smiling and talking.
I've got no idea what's going on?
Good luck? Be careful, yeah, get your kids to tell you what to do. Yeah, they know my kids take my phone off me. No, Yeah, just don't do that.
That's crazy.
Yeah. Look, it is a new medium and it's a way to get messages out and get your art out there. But if that's an example of your work, you could have told me that was a fader.
Yeah.
I can't believe the detail that you put in. How long did it take you to paint that?
Okay, so that didn't take me very long. I already painted it before, so I kind of knew where I was going. And it's monochromatic, so it's in black and white, so it takes that color element.
Out of it.
Yeah, so it probably only took me around ten hours. If I were to produced the same thing in color, it would probably take me probably around forty hours.
Made me a bit longer, you know, Jesus, there's a real talent there. Is it all your type of art? Is it all portraits or no? No?
So I do. I haven't really found my style.
I just love painting, so I do landscapes, animals more Like I said, that's a realism painting. So I painted one of two pac which is not so much realism. But I guess more I don't really know all the all the words that go with it, but more expression is them or something like that, I guess, But I just like to paint, so I don't really restrict myself.
How many hours you spending the week painting.
Funny enough, over the last two weeks with trying to work out this social I haven't actually I haven't actually got too much time up on the paintbrush. But I promised myself because of all that that I'll put in a lot more. But I like to spend, you know, a few hours every night painting.
Here. Your family pleased with the person that ye walked out the gates?
Yeah, definitely, yeah, they and you know what, like I'm in they used to come and visit me and like I'd get a lot of wrap from the offices like on their way in, and also inmates to my parents and everything. I guess, you know, for what it was, they had to find some way to find a way to be proud of you.
You know.
Well, when I was talking to you on the phone the other other day, I heard your mum in the back. Yeah. Yeah, she sounds like a bit of a character.
She's a character, all right, Yeah, she's the best man.
Well, yeah, I appreciate you coming on here, and we both talked about the messaging that we wanted to get across, and that was very much about a different way of doing the prison system. Yeah, but yeah, we this podcast. We'd love stories of redemption and turning your life around. And yeah, I think full credit to you, and I genuinely mean this. So I hope, because it's not long that you've been out, I hope you can stay on the stay on the journey. Yeah, and yeah, enjoy your life.
It's better on the outside percent.
I just want to say too, So if any inmates, for anyone, if they're getting out and they're struggling, you can you can send me a message on or TikTok whatever and I'll do whatever I can to help you. If you need some advice or someone to talk to her.
I think that's a good idea. Again, someone someone that's experienced. And yeah, I've spoken to people without giving up names that have known you and said that you're hitting in the right direction.
So yeah, it's been good and I've had the support to go with it, and it's kind OF's a good feeling.
I guess.
To get that support, I had to prove myself too, So you know, I didn't just come from nowhere. So well, sorry, there's one that I just want to please, a bit of a carne. She's left the corrections now, but she used to go above and beyond for the boys as well.
So now again, these are people who are making making the difference, like a good corrective services officer if they're just helping one person in there, yeah great, and yeah, I'm sure wind it back. I don't know, six years ago when you first started in super Max, I didn't think. I don't think you would have been thinking I'm going to sit here with a detective inspector from a gang squad talking about corrective services officers that are.
Yeah, yeah, been great to be I appreciate it.
No, I appreciate your making the effort. So all the best for the future.
Thank you. I appreciate it.
And just add if people want to find out more about what went on in the Quarie Correctional Center of the podcast episode Breaking Badness, it goes in the great detail the type of thing that Adam has been talking about and really give you a sense of what goes on in that prison.
All right, thank you, Thanks you guys,