Tortured inside China’s secret prison: Cheng Lei Pt.1

The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see aside of life. The average person has never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

Gary, it's a privilege to be here and meet you because I read your book while in detention and shared it with my cell mates.

Well, that's very cool. We might talk about that a little bit later on, but I'm glad I catch Kill has found its way into a cell in China.

A place so secret you can't google a picture.

Well, there you go. I should have put a file or something in the book for you to help you escape. At twenty twenty, I, like everyone else in this country, heard about your arrest and being detained in China, and I remember thinking that would probably be the worst place you'd want to be, caught up in a system, a system that we don't fully understand, in a communist country in prison. How was it for you?

Well, I experienced all the power that the Chinese state has firsthand, and as you say, it's I don't know if it's the worst. I haven't been in jail in Russia or Cuba or Venezuela or maybe other countries or North Korea. But as far as I know, it's probably that ultimate mix of extreme organization, extreme paranoia, and a unique insight into what tortures people mentally, because that's what

So and we will talk about what you were put through, and it was so logical torture of the extreme, I would suggest, But it's also what we've had on eye catch killers. And I'm sure you know them. Sean Turnbull and Kylie Moore.

Gilbert my good friends. Imagine elite club of jailbirds.

I'd love to be at the dinner party with you. You you international spies, a lot.

Of prison envy. What you had tea in you run so jealous.

So you compare it comparing those a little bit. I found with both, and both Sean and Kylie that the way that they caped I was quite amazed. And I finished finished your book and again reading a lot of light red well the Human Spirit, and that's what came across in your book, The Human Spirit. How all these things set up to break you, but you you're still hanging in there, and maintain you umanity too. I think that would be difficult.

I think it's better to focus on other people rather than yourself all the time, so not eaten up by the misery. When I tried to empathize with the guards, when I even tried to see what made the officers tick, even when they were interrogating me in the most awful way, or when I tried later intertention to help myself mates, that really helped me to know that everyone hurts, everyone suffers, and if I can make the tiniest bit of difference to someone else, then my suffering is eased.

Easy to say, probably harder to do. I can only imagine the frustration of being in prison for something that you haven't done and almost feel what you have helpless. It'd be screamed shouting the walls.

Well it's not something I haven't done. They can always accuse you of something that you have done and say that it is a crime. But what they really wanted we still don't know. But as far as the facts stack up, is to slap Australia in the face.

Yeah, And do you think in part what happened to you, that was caught up in all the political agendas and the bilateral relationships between Australia and China for the time while.

Because the day in, day out bashing me over the head that I am guilty, that what I did was so horrible. After a while I did get Stockholm syndrome. But later when I saw obviously when I was in there, I didn't know anything anything that was happening outside or how people felt or what they said or what they did.

And it almost sets it up as a bargaining chip in a way for negotiations.

And also maybe paranoia that I was somehow related to him and not related but associated with him. And to this day, nobody's going to come out and admit why exactly they did what they did what they did, but the lines of questioning and they must have thought I was somehow a spy.

What with the interrogation.

Well, now, I mean you've read some of the exchanges right like where is your grandma Springvale Cemetery?

They were clutching at straw as I look from a prosecution point of view, trying to find find something something on you. But okay, you're not an international spy. Will establish that. That's that's the same thing that Kylie said, in the same thing that Shaun said.

And if I am, please send me some money.

We've actually had an international spy on the on the podcast, Jeffrey twice, and he was worked for DGS, the French spy, and he never did time in jail, but he actually looked like a spy and he can fly a fire, a plane and all sorts of things. At times I can't even reverse park. I read that in your book, but your children captured it on video with your kids, and you've also got another one that you probably share common not common interest. That's the wrong way common experiences.

I think when I started working in journalism in China, it was a very different vibe, very different period. It was two thousand and two and China had just entered the wto China wanted all things foreign. It wanted foreign talent, it wanted foreign investment, We wanted foreign brands, Yes, absolutely, And even the Chinese leader at the time would show off his English and sing Elva songs when he went

Right, Okay, So in that environment you didn't get the sense of some think like what happened to you could happen No, because there was a lot of encouragement. Can we're going to talk about your life but also your experiences, but can we just break down what you're actually convicted of? What were the offense? So when we're talking about that, people understand exactly the nature of the crime.

Supplying state secrets to an overseas entity organization.

And that was in the form of a text message or that's where the.

Which I sent on WeChat and which I never deleted because I didn't think it was a state secret. It was. It's called the Premier's Work Report, which in Australian terms is kind of like the budget, and in it it talks about the previous year's economic growth and sets a target for the coming year. And in twenty twenty it didn't set a target and had a nine million jobs target. Those were the eight words that I texted my friend

Okay, so you're basically trying to help a friend and there was no malicious intent or no well I had.

When they asked me what a state secret was at the interrogations, I said numbers of rockets defense stuff. That was my so so stupid and naive understanding of state security. And I now know that is actually comprised of sixteen sectors, everything from health to oceans, to culture to economic.

All considered state secrets. Okay, So that just puts it in context what you spent three years in prison for. So when people are looking at you, they're not thinking they Okay, maybe she's a spy. That's basically what it came down to.

So many Chinese people might actually think that, yeah, well then again, I'm just saying that because I have seen some very very vitriolic commentary when the press release of my book was when that came out, and things like I should be shot, I should have been locked up longer. I should have my kids taken away from me. That's not nice, is that I am a spy and should have known that was the cost of being a spy.

And you're you're in a position where you culturally understand China because you grew up in China before you came across to Australia. You speak the language, so you would have had a real sense of it, and you can I'm sensing the pain that you're describing describing now. It must hurt because I don't think you've got any animosity towards China.

Not at all, And to.

Have that type of vitriol put out about you when you really you support China and it's turned on you, it must be hurtful.

This is the thing people are now completing China with the Chinese, with the Chinese regime, and we should be compartmentalizing. We shouldn't say, because the regime has done these awful things that we should be racist towards Chinese people. Yeah, Chinese Australians or overseas Chinese, and we shouldn't be saying we can't celebrate the culture. Yeah, but it's a hard thing for people to sometimes understand because they will seem entwined.

Well, the narrative that comes forward China. Yeah, we've got a fear of China that this is going on, but it's missing the point of the actual people. But you understand the people, so you're well placed.

Yeah, but I know that many Chinese people are now afraid that by talking to me or being my friend, they're actually they're actually endangering their businesses or assets or their families in China, which is so terrible.

Yeah, that that must hurt. Let's talk about your upbringing.

Happier subjects. You're a hard detective.

It's okay, didn't mean it didn't mean to break you down. We talk about your torture or the psychological torture over in China, and here I am putting you in an interview room again. Yes, but let's just know, Okay, we'll take a step back, tell me about your childhood, because you had a nice childhood growing up and an interesting childhood to tell us about that time in China.

So when I was born, we were on the cusp of ending the Cult Revolution, which basically fucked up China big time, and you still see some of those after effects now. But China was about to change leaders, Marl was about to die, and the living standards were going to start to improve. But at the time, my parents were earning something like five to six dollars a month, and even what they did, where they lived, it was

Turn it upside down. Do you have fond memories because you were there too. You were ten and now you talk about swimming in the river and different things, and it was almost like a country life that you were living.

I was in the city, but back then there wasn't a lot of difference between the city and the countryside in that you ate to meat very rarely. I think once a year we would have chicken once or twice. I remember once it was because we had guests, a special guests. Another time it was because it was Chinese New Year and this one chicken, poor chook that got killed.

I'm not going to admit to that, but I understand. I understand that.

We didn't hurt it. Very gentle with the thread.

That type of type of childhood. Now you attend when you came across to Australia, tell us about that experience, because that would have been a culture shock for you big time.

It was a tsunami. Yeah, getting on the plane in Guangzhou in southern China. My mum was scared that we had too much luggage, so she made me wear two pairs of her jeans. At the time, jeans were a new thing in China. They were seen as the ultimate fashion statement. Except they were all fled I think they were cast offs from developed.

Countries, seventy stock that we could tell exactly.

So I was wearing mum's two long jeans and sitting on this plane and not knowing what to do at all. So when the bits of quantus food came around, Mom and I were trying to figure out, like why is this meat cold? Why is it unflavored? And not knowing that the sachets of salt and pepper were to be opened. And then I went to the toilet and I'm so sorry, Quantas, but I squatted on the seat.

That's why they have to bring in those signs toilet.

Yeah, but this was eighty five for understandable for.

A ten year old. For a ten year old, what it's like you go into another planet, it was yeah, yeah.

I mean I tried to imagine it when when I knew I would be going. But back then, what did we know of the outside world except that you know, there used to be the slogan that US imperialists or paper tigers. To a kid, what does that mean?

Is that good or bad?

Yeah?

I thought gorilla warfare was gorillas fighting when I was growing up, so the confused this gorilla warfare. That's a bit of a tough fighting gorillas. But anyway, we'll all grow up and learn. So your time in Australia, So how did you find that you ended up in Brisbane?

You well, Dad was doing his PhD at Monash to my Nash Primary and Secondary and then in the final year Dad went to work at the University of Queensland. So we all moved up and I did year twelve at Intrapilli High in Brisbane.

Okay, and you.

What a shock from Melbournian Brisbane.

Your your father was pushing you into commerce and you studying what you were studying was not What was really your passion.

Is that my parents are all very nerdy maths slash physics nerdy and they used to make me do problems from an early age. I'm traumatized to this day.

That was again, and I refer to your book because I picked up so much about you in the book where you're sitting around family time, playing doing the capulus or.

What became Well, they would be arguing over some problem that I couldn't do, and then I'd go, okay, is this time for me to go, you know, play for a while. Well they get it out, but they, I guess, grew up with the understanding that science and technology was the way forward for China, so they tried to They thought that would be the best for me. And also my dad thought Australia, being more racist than it is now, that I wouldn't be able to get a job if I did an arts or journalism degree.

And I remember that you were saying in the book that your father had concerns that they're not going to you want to go in the journalism the country's not ready for an Asian journalist and that type of thing. But I can understand from a parent's point of view what they would have felt at the time. So steered you into something that you mainly did for your parents sake.

And I just thought I'd be able to get a job, make money, and then that would look good for my parents. Yeah, I didn't really know what I wanted to do actually in that way, in terms of a career.

I'm going to raise it. Then if you don't want to talk about it, that's fine. But when you were living in Brisbane, you're a victim of a home invasion, Yes, you happy to talk about what.

I do actually through this podcast not to find detective sergeant. He was detective sergeant then Dom Mabbot, who worked in Brisbane at the time in nineteen ninety four, and really thank him.

No, well, you've certainly paid cuos to him. And what was it about that? And I like hearing that, like as a former detective, someone that's doing their job well. But Dom Mabbot detective that there was a home invasion where you were woken up by a man standing over your bed with a cigarette lther and a knife, threatening to kill you if you make a noise, and then kept your hostage.

Yes, for over an hour while I took him around the house looking for money. I took him to the garage. He didn't know that I actually did it to wake up the dogs. But the dogs didn't even bark when they do, they're just very nice dogs. And then to my dad's room and where he picked up some stuff. But I thought because my dad had a shotgun hidden somewhere. I thought it'd be messy if I woke my parents home, and I thought he wouldn't do anything to me, But

So I picked up the.

Phone and or I took the phone from him and made the call. And then when the police came, I went with Don to the police station to give to describe the attack and the rapist. But I remember him telling me he had a young daughter, and the empathy that he showed, the gentleness, Yeah, yeah, it loft such a difference.

First.

Still, think for something as dramatic as that, if you have a police offer so that understands and is empathetic towards what you've gone through, it can make a world of difference. So full full credit to him, but also credit to you and the way that you you came through that and taught a bit about yourself, how you can handle handle crisis and you, yeah, I'm reluctant to even say that a victim, because you're not broken by it.

Actually I didn't get to give evidence because when I had already moved to Melbourne to find work, and the Queensland Police flew me back to Brisbane for the court hearing, and as soon as I appeared, he pleaded guilty.

Well that's that's even better. Yeah, that's better. But okay, well that's a that's a tough thing for anyone to happen happen in their life. But I think it demonstrates your resolve to always move forward and the strength that your share. How long did you spend in the career that you didn't particularly want?

Too long? Five years?

Then you've decided, Okay, I've paid the dues to my parents and now I want to do something that's I'm passionate about. What drew you to journalism.

Well, two things I'm passionate about. One is telling things telling the story and then two is using my bilingual advantage. And at the time, China was growing really fast and Australian businesses were investing there. So I got a job as a business analyst with the predecessor or This company was taken over by Toll Holdings and they had made an investment in Eastern China. So I went there and learned so much in just one year.

Seems like the perfect fit with your background and your skills.

Accept accept The joint venture was with the very powerful state owned power Corporation of that province and to people who know China power as in electricity, it's very powerful.

Okay, if you've got the power, you've got the.

Power, you do and corrupt, especially back then. Now I can't gauge the severity, but the things I saw go on, yeah, but still it was super interesting to observe and to be a part of. So that's why I then went for an interview at the what they call CCTV China Central Television because they were just starting up their English channel, and that was how I got my start in journalism.

And did it feel like a good fit for you at the time?

I loved it from day one just going to speak to different people and the immediacy of telling what had happened and being able to use my business show your parents, I know, yeah, yeah, Dad does that.

Okay, So you moved and lived over there. Relationships, married kids.

I had married when I was working in Melbourne. My first boyfriend whom I met while we were recording educational tapes for the Queensland Department of Education, and then we moved to Melbourne together. And I'm a people pleaser. I shouldn't have married when I felt it was the wrong he was. We were just not yeah, not a good fit, and I should have broken up before getting married.

Well, I can tell you, like I shouldn't be seen here. I can't judge anyone on relationships. So you explain that the way you need to explain it. But I understand that that's you had the five years or whatever it was and went your separate ways. You're another relationship that you had two beautiful kids too, Yes, And what years was? At? What stage was that?

That was after my divorce. So my first husband was very stayed and I used to nickname him mister Safety. And then of course after that that the rebound relationship was somebody. Yeah, and unfortunately that meant abusive, exploitative, and toxic.

Okay, well, that's not the best.

Thing about that is, of course, my two beautiful.

Kids, and when that's Ava and Alex when.

We were they born twenty nine and twenty eleven.

Okay, And so your career in journalism, you virtually were raising the children as a single mother.

I was, Yeah, after after a particularly bad bashing by my former husband in twenty fifteen.

Right, okay, well that's it.

Yeah, the kids were four and six.

Again, I'm sorry to hear that. That's yeah, that's quite lot.

In a way, perversely, it helped because I used to think, if I can be bashed so hard, belted that the bronze buckle fell off in the head by somebody who was supposed to love and care for me, was the father of my kids, then straight just interrogating me and putting me through pain is not so hard to fathom. And if I can still later on see my ex husband and talk to him about raising the kids and be cordial and calm, then why can't I get through strangers hurting me.

It's interesting you say that. I think all the little parts of our lives that do hear this and that, and how we readbound from that? And you don't look back and wish any harm on You're not saying I'm glad it happened, but it does shape you, and it's certainly something I think in the experiences you had would have stilled your resolve. In the prison situation that you found.

Yourself in, yeah, everything that was terrible had prepared me for the ultimate terror.

The biggest test. And I I sit opposite like Kylie and Sean and that I don't know how I would cope in those environments, like just the situations that you found yourself in. It's incredible. But anyway we'll dig into that.

Don't choose you as a sell mate.

We'd have some fun in themselves. We'd try and trick the guards. I'm also amazed of the ratcunning to get around some of some of the rules, because they've got it all wide. There is no way you're going to break these rules. But you managed to break break some of the rules and very cleverly. Your life before before you were detained living, where were you living.

I was living in the central part of Beijing.

Okay, we'd be the TV station with.

My kids, so my mum would come over and stay half of the year.

Okay, how old were your kids at that time?

They were eight and ten. Okay, when we separated in February twenty.

Twenty, all right, and then if correct me if I'm wrong, your kids were sent over to visit your mom. Yes, and then the dreaded COVID lockdowns. Yeah, and all the lockdowns and say you.

Kid locked its borders. So my kids were on a flight to come back on the thirty first of March twenty twenty, but that flight got canceled and then nothing nobody could come in, well except for officials kids, And.

There's always a loophole, is it for certain people? Okay, that must have been traumatic in itself. It was been separated for you.

Had never been separated from them like that. Yeah, maybe you know, for a month when they went to see my dad in Perth, or maybe for a day or two when I went on business troops, but not like that. Yeah, long and not knowing when it would end. So I was just going out of my brain every day trying to find some way to get them back.

So how long was it before you had detained the kids with trapped for six months. Okay, so you had six months without your kids.

So all in total, I didn't see my kids for close to four years.

That must have been heartbreaking at that age too, like so many changes, so many things that go on in their lives, yeap, when you were in detention. Who was looking after your children?

My mom was, I was. I would have liked for my children to have gone to Perth with my dad because my mum is a hoarder and her house I don't think kids good for the kids or her way of living. But it ended up being that my daughter went to boarding school and my son was there for the whole time.

That must be tough, yeah.

And I would always read the letters to try to glean how the kids were doing, yeah, and the ways they were coping. And later when I did find out some details, it was just heartbreaking around.

Yeah, I can imagine. Okay, I promise not to make you cry again. I feel like I mean got you and forget about those Chinese interrogators.

This is good.

Good cry, Okay, good cry. Tell us about the day that you would detained, so we've got a sense of your life leading up to it, who you were, and I just you probably underplayed it. You were pretty big in the journalists. Well, you had some good gigs in the media, and yeah, inter viewing Michael Schumacher, covering the Rolling Stones concerts and really tough gigs like that. So you were struggling. Then your world's turned upside down? How did it start? Talk us through that?

Yeah, So August thirteenth, twenty twenty the worst day of my life. I was thinking that I would go play tennis in the morning, and also I was feeling crook, but being me, I'd go and play sport when I was cook anyway, thinking it's going to make me better. But when I took some painkillers and dozed off, and then when I work, I saw all these messages like work wanting me to come in right now because the head honcho wanted to see me about my pilot for

What was going.

I was in a bit of pain, and I thought, one, this must be a mistake, and two, I'm sure I can explain this because I haven't done anything wrong and I haven't supplied state secrets to overseas organizations. I didn't even start to think that it was anything related to bilatual relations. I just thought this will be a little adventure, something to tell people about a story at the dinner table. Yeah,

And when did you realize this is this is not going to be a case of oh, when they leave, I'm going to get What was that about? When did you realize that you were in real trouble.

I didn't realize the full extent of what they could do to me, or what they could do to anyone. Yeah, until months later. For example, even the next day, I thought, if I could sit out this day, I would be able to get bail or some sort of house arrest.

Did you under have an understanding of the Chinese system or are you more thinking, well, you're more attuned to the Australian justice system, where bail and those type of protections might be more readily available.

I don't think I even had a full understanding of any judicial system. It wasn't my beating, It's not. Yeah. Sure, I read news articles and I know, and I've seen too many American legal shows, which is not good preparation for Chinese incarceration.

Doesn't You didn't read me by rights, that's not going to.

Yeah, yeah, give me, give me a quarter to call my lawyer.

So how did you feel like? I know, it's intimidating for people when they're placed under arrest and yeah, we're used to our freedoms and then have someone and I say to look on people's faces when no, you can't actually leave the room you've been detained. How did that make you feel like someone physically had control of you from that point in time.

To a certain degree. In China, you hear about things happening, so you're not entirely bewildered, but still, you know, the more things they told me, I couldn't do the it was just a very ugly, dawning things like you can't put your arm over your eyes, you can't sleep facing the wall. Those things you don't think about.

So you were you were? You're taken from your home, yes, and you blindfolded.

Yes.

Even that in itself is quite confronting to be blindfolded them and walked out in the in the charge of someone else, not knowing where you've been taken well.

When I was blindfolded, I was still in my you know way till I tell people about this.

Oh, then they put the blindfold on.

Yeah, not knowing you would be you know, another three years before I could actually tell that story.

Yeah, So where were you taken to?

I was taken to the well at the time, to me, it was a secret location. But it's number forty seven dahlmannlu Infonte District in Beijing, a place that I really hate.

It's not the type of place you recommend people visit.

So it's the facility where they take state secret, not state secret, state security. What would you call them suspects or yes, aspect it the difference that you're being suspected of something.

A place where they can detain you without having you not charged. They can just detain you at that at that.

Pacil people are often surprised by the different order of pain that you experience. In the Chinese system. You get the worst first, whereas in Australia, the US jail is the worst.

You get it, that's the end of it.

Yeah, but their jail is almost paradise compared to say, the first phase, which is RSDLA.

And what's that stand for?

RSDL residential surveillance at a designated location, which sounds really benign.

A lot of interpretations that could be made.

Yeah, residential. There's nothing residential about having two people stuck to you for every minute of the day for six months there.

I think that's just hard to comprehend when you describe the conditions that you're in. You're in a small room. You've got a bed there, and you've got someone standing forty centimeters in front of you, and someone.

Sitting forty centimeters to your right, to your.

Right, and at all times twenty four to seven, yes, and you're not allowed to talk. You've got to keep your eyes open. You've got to sit on the bed for thirteen hours a day, and.

You've got to sit straight. You can't cross your legs or ankles, you can't lean against anything, you can't move without permission.

How long did this go on? For?

Six months? That's the legal limit. Yeah, And many lawyers, like conscientious lawyers, have lobbied for that to be abolished in China because this is how how you how people make cases. Right.

Psychological torture, Yeah, say anything, break a person, break a person, get out of it. And then you get you get taken them out for interrogation at their whim. Yeah, and what did that involve?

And under Chinese law, you're not supposed to have the place of interrogation on the same premises as the so called residential surveillance. But they give a different address to the room right next door.

But they put you in the wheelchair and put the blindfold on you and were you down there.

No, it's right next door, right, Yeah, So that in itself is very dodgy.

Yeah.

And you're in a restraint chair, so there's a big block of wood that kind of that's locked in front of you, so you can't move, you can't get out of the chair, and three people video cameras recording someone feeding them what to ask you, and every and really just looking at every part of your life because they've confiscated all all of your electronics.

How often would you be interrogated.

In the first month, Probably a dozen times, and then it petered off after that because they didn't find anything with switch to asked me. They just hit all these dead ends.

Did you think that the insanity would have to come to an end at some stage? Could you reach out and speak to the embassy at this location. Could you speak to your family, could you engage a lawyer?

No? I mean the embassy came to visit every month, and that was a godsend. But it's thirty minutes for thirty days, and I often thought there's just not enough time to say really important things like where are the kids going to be? And what happens to my personal life? You can't talk about your case. Of course, they have a translator, and they have video cameras, and they have all these officers sitting around me, even though it's by a video link, and they're actually on the premises, and

So you've virtually gone from a normal, exciting existence life and you've been dropped into this environment, which is sensory deprivation. I would imagine not being able to talk, not have the freedom to move when you want in the cell. Describe the cell to me.

The cell is padded. In fact, everything is designed to prevent self harm or I guess harming others. So thick steel sliding doors to lock you in and doorless bathroom. Again, the bathroom is padded, and there's no tap, It's only a rubber hose. And okay that the tab is set within the wall, so you have to put your fingers in to turn it, and it's very hard, and obviously they're afraid of you wrenching off, for example, a tap too to do something. So when it got so bad.

That people would tell you that I'm like the ultimate life lover.

I love to live.

But there came a moment when I wanted to die, and I thought, how can I do it? The walls are soft, right.

That there's not thing that there's this blue gray carpet. But the only thing that was hard was the bathroom tiles. And when I'm on the toilet, the guards are watching. But I thought if I could just in that moment before they grabbed me, if I could smash my head against the tiles, Yeah, that.

Would be some sort of relief because I didn't know if I would see my family again, I.

Can't comprehend the low how you would be feeling too, consider consider that and just no privacy, no communication.

Yeah, because you speak like five sentences a day, like permission to go to the toilet, permission to go to the toilet.

So you're sitting there with someone standing in front of you, standing in front of you, and you got to keep your eyes open before you've seen and made this from me, which is not nothing big, there's.

Names really weird.

Yeah, how how did you occupy your mind and stay sane during that? And I asked that genuinely, how do you stay sane when that's going on?

Well? Later I found out that I thought I had it bad, but others had it worse. When the Australian embassy lobbied on my behalf, I started to get books.

Yep, in the detention center when in R SDR.

Yeah, that saved my life. You words cannot describe how much of how much solace.

Some books escapeism for you.

Like literally I would read very comforting words over and over again.

Yeah.

I remember this book by Melbourne author called Belinda Missen. She writes some romantic stories, very lighthearted, and she was describing this Victorian town and said there was a fish and chip shop mhm, and all of a sudden, just this rush of longing for azziness, you know.

So thankfully I had the books, that makes sense.

But I was on a drip feed. Yeah, so after I had read one book, there was if you've got thirteen hours, and unfortunately I'm a fast reader, son, then what then I'm begging for another book? And I can't even talk to the officers directly. I have to go through the guards, so and sometimes they would like gesture to me that this officer was really mean. And you know, it's not a good idea.

So when you say drip feed the books, you only read the portion of it, because if you go through a book that's gone, then you wait up.

As in the offices would drip feed me the books right, just enough to keep me from going insane, but I would ration it myself so that I would wake up and think, oh, I have a new chapter.

Today, something to look forward to me. Exactly did the guards ever loosen up a little bit or were they? And you said at the start of this you had empathy for the guards what they're going through. Did any of them let their personalities come out? Were they were. They were too fearful to break the rules.

Some of them were very nice to me because I showed if they were if they carved or you know, like there were ways to show that you your normal, decent human being. And I would always say good morning, even if they didn't say it back. And there was one guard who had the runs, and she radioed for central command to send a sub but nobody could come,

Them would cause your concern. If they can treat their own that way, what would they do for you? What about sleeping lights out time or never? So like seeing bright lights the whole time.

I used to think that I wouldn't be able to sleep with the lights on. Yeah, But I guess when you become extremely sleep deprived than you can natural sunlight. Are you kidding?

Sorry, I'm.

Useful for showing your Australians there.

Look, let's just open the window and let a nice breeze through.

No, no, Oka, they're paranoid about you seeing what's outside, even though once I did see because the curtain was opened for a little bit, and even though the Australian government lobbied for me to get fresh air, there was only this tiny window near the ceiling that could be opened for fifteen minutes a day, and they would always make it so such a big production, like standing up on the stool to quickly you get behind the curtains, and then to open the window so that I don't

I mean, jeez, well you are an international spy. What you're capable of?

I felt so inadequate. They really really overestimate me.

James Bond, there was things that you did to pass pass the time of day. I'm not going to mention it. It's in your book. I'm not sure how to raise the subject. Let's just say found found release and pleasure. Well, you can explain it. You told me how to explain it. But I thought it was very creative and it was quite funny and it made me laugh.

Well, you do what you have to do, and if you can, I'll look.

On I'll help you out. It about pleasuring yourself even when there's people watching. Twenty four seven our guests today found a creative way to do it. I'm not going to go into any further details other than the say it's in the book, but it made me laugh when I was reading it, So a little victory to you. Congratulations. You've got to laugh at these things, haven't you. Well, And I would imagine that.

Well, if if all there is, if the things around you only give you pain, then you can create pleasure for yourself. Whether it's remembering something beautiful or planning what I'm going to say that's loving and affectionate at the next embassy visit to my family, or going through some you know, really lovely sentences in a book, yeah, or other things. Then you just got to I think that's actually very Australian to be self reliant. Because we're so

You paid tribute to the fact that the Australian side of your help you get through a lot of this. You think that's genuine because you understand the whole cultures, But the Australian side just a little bit what we like to think. We are a little bit rebellious and get in, have a go and we can survive this tough times. We'll get through that type of attitude.

And we can always crack some daggy jokes, yeah, and have a laugh at ourselves, have a laugh at people who take themselves too seriously. Yeah, and get on with it all right.

Well, look we might take a break now that we've only got your six months into a three year sentence, and this is just the start of it. You haven't even met yourself yet. And that's other little party tricks that you got up to with your home brew and daycake cakes and all that. We laugh about it, but what you're also experience is that you're not just a deprivation, but you're away from your family and all the pain

You, no, And I'm trying to Gary Gazza.

All right, don't turn it on me. You're a professional journalist. I'm just trying to make a living in this business. When we get back for part two, we'll talk about what happened with the trial, the sentence, and how you eventually found your freedom and how you survived it, because I think that's a really interesting time.

Great cheers, Thank you, Ka