The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. This is part two of my chat with convicted murderer Anthony Jones. I ask him the questions Eden Brown's family wanted to know about his murder, and we also discussed his future plans. This is a heavy episode, one I think is worthwhile listening to Anthony Jones. Welcome back to
part two of I Catch Killers. You say that, look, it's a hard, hard conversation, but yeah, as we're discussed on and off Mike. I think it's important that people find out exactly what your story is, where you've come from, and what's happened. And if we go to soft on it, will people think, well, why are we actually finding out here? What's this about? We spoke in part one, I should say, and how you pleaded guilty, and you explained why you pleaded guilty to murder, which is a fairly rare thing.
I also talk about the fact that Jessica Brown's sister, when I spoke to her, she was happy for me to sit down and have you on the podcast, but she said there's a couple of things that the family would like. She clarified that, yeah, her parents, who are elderly now, are still living with the pain of losing their son, and I think you could under understanderstand that that there's a ripple effect when someone's killed and her
life's been taken. There was also headlines that I read like looking at when the matter has been reported on that I think it was attributed to Jessica, where she said, yeah, this is a terrible situation. Two lives have been lost now, that to me comes across as someone very generous in saying that. I could I've seen a lot of people that have lost loved ones in murders and there's no thought or consideration given to the person that's involved in
the murder. How do you feel about that? Just what I've said.
Yeah, Actually I found out a few years later after a sentence that she said, you know, two families have lost their sons. The only difference is one gets it back one And I read I got told that maybe
ten years later, and that impacted me enormously. I could see that she had some sort of empathy towards me, I suppose, and by that time I was a very different man when I found out that what she said, and you know that deeply, I don't deserve that, you know, and that kindness kind of grace we call that grace in Christianity, undeserved favor. And those words that she said, actually, you know, have helped change me dramatically and propel me to do what I do.
It's pretty hard to say those type of words, isn't it, going through the pain that her and the family would have would have gone through. And in fact, when I spoke to her, and I made a note of it when I called her after my discussion with you. She did point out that we're thrilled he's now making something of his life. Like again, that shows a generosity. But a little bit about Jessica just to give a sense of how this person could find their way to make
the comments that she has. For the past twenty years, Jessica Brown has changed the courses of hundreds of young women's lives for the better. The charities she founded, Sister the Sister Warrior Woman Foundation support young women at risk
through pairing with older, successful women role models. Twenty twenty four, Jessica gained a position on the Serious Offenders Review Board, an independent body who makes recommendations to New South Wales Commissioner of Corrective Services on the progression of the state's most serious offenders. We're getting sidelined here. But she's a pretty impressive, impressive person just by that.
Oh yeah, even at my prolaring they said anything's done enough time. Like what do you say?
It's hard? She asked me. She there's things that the family want to know. They want to know that, are you taking responsibility for Eden's death? What would you say to her in that irresponsible.
Yeah, yeah, but I will say there was never premeditation there was never I never had a thought about in that night or ever to to kill him, to harm him.
Just that night.
It just unfolded that way. I take responsibility for it.
What about a couple of other things that she wanted accountability acknowledgment of what I did?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well that it all started with the plead guilty.
Okay, that's where it began to talk us through that in regards to accountability.
I wanted to plead duty from the beginning, but obviously my family begged me to to fight and try to come home the whole time. I wanted to plead duty. Like so the second trol came to where it did, and I gave me the opportunity to plead guilty. So then what I did, plead guilty. I still had a long time to go, and I thought, well, plead and guilty is one thing. If I don't leave this place
a better man or changed, that's pointless. So after the plea of guilty too, pretty much instantly after that, when I got to this game, I just went to work on myself right, and I'm not leaving this place until I change. And I made a vow to God because I'm a faithful man. I made that to God and that I would never be charged and to Eden that I'd never be charged for a violent crime again, that this violence would leave me and I'll do whatever it takes to do that. And I made that vow in
twenty fourteen, and every day since then I've done. Every single day, I've worked than myself to change and I've never blamed anybody else. I've never said anybody thing about anybody else. It was on me. It's my fault. My hands have the blood on them. I play guilty to it. And what I've done after the plea of guilty proves to people. It shows people, but mostly to myself. I had to prove to myself that there's something good in me, and that's where God came in and showed me that
there is something good in me. And everything I do now is to show people that I took responsibility for what I've done, and everything I do now is to change my life so I don't ever do anything like that again to anybody else, And now help others to figure out why they're so angry.
Well, sitting here opposite you, and I think I can judge where you're coming from. In that I've said the opposite a lot of people that have committed serious crimes. And there's certainly I'm seeing the accountability and the acknowledgment. What about the empathy for what Eden's gone through, Like he lost his life, he had his life ahead of him and the impact of the family. Talk to me through that on your thoughts on that. Well, when I say your thoughts on how you feel about that, Oh, look.
I'll carry the pain of that forever in my life and I have to. You know, it's my hands that they lost his son. I can't imagine what they feel because I didn't lose your son. You know, I sat in jail for many years and had a recurring dream thinking what would I do if I was Eden's father to me? And I always had this recurring dream that one day I'd walk out of the gate and someone his father would just shoot me. Yeah, you know, and Eden's father is not that type of man. But when
someone like this happens, anyone's capable of anything. And I was actually hoping you do that. That's what I used to always dream about. I can't imagine what they're going through. The hole in their heart will never be healed. It will never be filled. All I can do is represent myself out here. I've been given a second chance, and I'm worthy of that second chance.
I know that.
I know that, and that's why I'm coming on here to show, hopefully show them that I am a change man, so they can actually say, well, we'll help them, hopefully bring closure that. I don't know how. You can't feel. I can't take anything back. But if I came out here and I was still a scumbag, still being a putrid person like that would impact them even more negatively. And I made sure that that was not going to happen.
If they saw me, they're going to see a man that's trying to change his life and trying to do better.
Now, that's all I can do.
My heart aches for them, will always ache for them. I can te need to pray for them, and I'll pray for them today i leave this earth.
But that's all I can do.
Yeah, because eventually I gotta I gotta, I gotta do this.
It's carrying a weight, isn't it.
I've got to carry the well, I'm never not going to have the weight, man. Yeah, And I have to carry that weight.
Yeah, well, yeah, full credit to you coming up or fronting up and coming on this podcast. It's not the type of podcast you want to come on in your circumstances because the hard questions are going to be asked, and I'm going to look you in the eye and if you're bullshitting, I would try to call you on it. That was that's just the nature of this world, because I see the impact that homicides have on the families, and it's devastating. It carries on for generations. But what
I'm what I'm hearing is you understand that. And going back to the trial, and I heard or read a report that when you you pleaded guilty to it that yeah, when and we talked about the accountability and you wanted to be the first one in the family to stand up and except yeah, this is this is what I've done, the responsibility that it might have been something that you said. Did your mum actually call out and say that you're a disgrace to the family.
Yeah, she stood up when I was I had to stand up obviously didn't get it rained again, put my plea of guilty, and as I stood she stood up and said, you're not my son. You disgrace to the family, and yeah, my brother removed it from the from the courtroom.
Is that because you break the criminal code of Yeah, not nothing for a crime when you got the chance of beating it.
Yeah, and somehow I'm letting them down by doing the right thing.
Right, So you were a disgrace for the crime that you committed. You're a disgrace for doing the right thing, doing the right thing. How did that make you feel.
When I went back downstairs, I it just validated what I was doing. Yeah, like pleading guilty and it shaved my lawyer.
Okay, this is why. Yeah, this is why.
And yeah, it's probably one of the most impactful things negatively that she's ever done to me. You know, but that's what as what drives me to break this cycle.
Okay, so you're twenty four. Yea, you've gone through what you've just described to us. I believe you when you say you're carrying the guilt of the crime and the responsibility of taking a friend's friend's life. You've got your family that's turned against you because, in their words, you're basically a dog. Because you've told to myself, yeah, you gave the prison your sentenced to what was the sentence?
Eighteen years, eight months.
Okay, and you're twenty four, twenty five.
Yeah, I got sentence. I was twenty six, maybe seven, twenty six.
Okay, first night in the cells. After all that, you've caught up in the emotion of deciding to plead guilty, deciding taking accountability, owning what you've done. Then you've been sentenced, how your family sturned against you, or your moment least, how did you feel when you went in the in the cells.
I felt relief that it was over and I had a date, which I was grateful for a date, a goal, but I was kind of numb man.
Yeah, just numb.
Just I thought I've done all I can to that for that point, but it was just numb. Just got to get on with it now.
Survive and survive is probably a good word because there's a lot of pitfalls in prison for that period of time that that's your environment. You've got to survive. And yeah, there's different ways, but you can. You get caught up in stuff inside in prison. You talked about getting access to a Bible and the lead up to pleading guilty, and that was sort of change changing your thinking. I'm not I said to you before we started the podcast,
some other religious man. But anything that helps people live a good life, I'm all for if that's and that's the impact that it's had on you. When you went to start your long your long sentence, were you looking towards religion at that stage or you're still finding your finding your way? What? What was How did you survive jail that, let's say the first twelve months two years? How did your process and survive in prison.
The first eighteen months all the way to the first trial was just there was no talk of faith at all.
Yeah.
I never came across faith at all. I just surviving it, you know, every day, just trying to build my case, trying to figure out how to present this. You're on romand so you're just getting ship from jar to jail. Yeah, you know, you just you're just doing your best in
there and trying to prepare for trial. And then in the first trial I started to pray, which I never prayed four but I started praying at the end of the troll, and then that led me to the Bible for the second troll, and then that led me to the plead guilty, that conviction from reading those words the truth will see you free. And then for whatever reason, I just kept I just started going to Chapel every Sunday.
When I got to this game, that's where you're doing the bulk of your time at lift G. Yeah, I did six years there and that's a pretty heavy joy. Yeah, it's no nonsense there. Yeah, you know I was. I wasn't you know?
I was angry, I was volatile, I was forever reason I go to Chapel every Sunday just because I knew I had an encounter with God and somehow, some way, and this conviction on my heart was the answers in that book for me to change.
So explain Chapel in prison because people don't get a sense of it. So you've got other prisoners of the.
Sunday calls Sunday ten am. Roughly, you've got the pastor or the chaplain and there's a call for ten am service and whoever wants to go the gates open, you go down and it could be five, ten twenty.
Does it put a target on you? In prison? You can't show weakness, and if you show kindness that can be perceived as weakness, Like if if you've found God, you there right for the picking for other prisoners to look.
Everyone's going to judge you. But religion is a big thing in jail. You know, it's of Islam or yeah, or Jesus or brought up you know, the Asian Boys or anyone really, but you know, everyone's holding on to something.
But mine was far.
Beyond the crutch. I knew that this has compelled me, this is going to change my life. So as the years went on, I just got deeper and deeper in it. I could read it for longer than five minutes because my attention span. I had to teach myself how to read properly, how to teach myself how to be disciplined, and read it for longer than ten minutes. And as I did, it just captivated me. And I just went to work on myself and that book guided me.
Were there crossroads or situations you found yourself in because you would have had to stand up for yourself at times? And how did that work into your You found view on religion and the way they live your life.
That was the hardest thing to do because everything it's telling me to do everything the opposite. Yeah, you know, to forgive, to love, to turn the other cheek.
Well that's right. Yeah, well that's what I'm trying to break down.
A half years the game, and I'm Jesus telling me to do these things, right.
Yeah.
So it took a long time, man, but I never gave up in it. And there was altercations that I had in prison, of course, and there was one. There was one kind of defining one that it changed. It probably changed my life, It really changed. It was a crossroads moment and then it made me make a decision of do you want to die in jail or do you want to go home?
Tell us about that. I think I know the one you're talking about, And yeah, it should almost be a content morning here, because it's pretty heavy. Tell me what happened there, tell us in detail what took place.
There's a couple of other inmates that came to my wing where we live, and we didn't like each other obviously, and escalator one day between me and one bloke, but then he kind of cowered and didn't want to go on with it, and okay, I said, all right. So then we got locked in at three thirty into ourselves and I knew, okay, tomorrow something's gonna happen for sure. So we get locked in at three o'clock or three thirty to eight thirty the next day, and I surrendered
my life to Jesus. You surrender your life, you say to come to my life. You live for me. Now you take control. And I've done that in January. This happened in April, and I'm like, how do I deal with this? Now? There?
So that door locked.
I just had these mental demons in my head to retaliate. How I would always retaliate because I know they're coming for me. But how do I do I don't want to do that. I want to take this seriously. I want to change my life. I don't want to be violent anymore. And I battled through that all night, and then the morning came and I read a powerful verse in the Bible which is called Ephesian, the Book of Ephesians,
chapter six, and it's called the Armor of God. And he talks about putting a belt of truth on the breastplate of righteousness, a helmet of salvation, a shield of faith, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God. And he says, put on this spiritual armor and God will protect you. So I prayed that over myself, and the doors opened at eight thirty, and I promised myself and God that I wouldn't attack. I just defend myself.
I had no ideas what happened then, but the doors open and the screws are in the jail, opening all the doors, and he got like sixty to seventy men single file walk downstairs to go into the yard to.
Go to work.
But I was a sweeper in the pods. I cleaned the pod while the men go to work. So I met the rubbish spins and I saw I think three men creeping behind the corrective officers. One of a bucket and I didn't see what the other blake had a weapon, and another blake, And as I seen this guy come towards me, I just thought I just looked leaped at him, but he just threw a bucket hot liquid in my face and melted my face and.
I went blind.
And then obviously he's just going hectic, and I'm just fighting, pretty much blind, trying to defend myself. And then obviously the screws are there, so that's it's just got contained after a certain time, and I'm contained. I still couldn't see you. After minutes of this, and then one of the screws he knew me for a long time. I just said, please give me my hand so I can rub my eyes, you know, and he's please don't fight anymore, and I said, no, I won't, mate, I won't. Just
let me rub my eyes. And so I got my hands and rubbed my eyes. And then as I'm rubbing my eyes, I could just start to get my vision back as my skin was melting, and I said, another bloke come up the stairs trying to get me again, and then he got tackled and then I could finally see again, and my face was just burning, and they put me in the shower and then I'm just under cold water. And then a lady officer came in and she started screaming, like frantically, saying he's been stabbed multiple
times and you know that'd stab wounds and stuff. I had no idea and I went to hospital and you know, they copy to the bed. I'm still a maxim secuity, inn't I? And I was just laughing, you know, and the screws.
Like, what are you laughing? I said, don't worry, man.
That was a moment for me with God, you saved my life. And I was bandaged up and I got stabbed ten times, but only one wound actually penetrated, right, And I was like, and they said, you're going to be scarred. Your face is going to be mangled for you.
You know that that hot liquid that threw over, that melded your face. That's a bit of a prison and it's almost like a Nate palm.
Yeah, it just blinds you and melt your face. It's not just hot water, sugar, whatever they can get in there.
So it sticks to your skin and burns. And I think the prison more than had your skin on these hands.
To Yeah, the prison guard, I look down, he said what's this? He goes, this is your skin. And then so I went When I went back to the jails, I thought, okay, but I said, I'm going back to the main population, like you're not putting in any protective custody. Yeah, And he's like, yeah, you're going back. So I went back to the wing. And then a good made of mine is like a mentor, you know.
The older guy.
He come and saw me and he said, mate, like the way you're going, you're going to die. You are so violent. You disrespect, like people want to kill you. They look how many people tried to come today to kill you. They're over going to get locked in, segre They're going to send data and you're going become like a zombie.
Are you going to die?
He goes, I could have punched my way through this sentence, but I didn't. He's been in for nineteen years at that time, So you've got to survive this a j because I'm only telling you because I love you, mate, And I just sat there and that night I got locked in and I said, Okay, I don't make changes.
Man.
If I'm going to be a Christian, I'm going to follow this way and I'm going to get out of jar on one piece.
Because when you came back and you weren't going in protection, were you and I take on board that you were put in your faith in Yeah? Were you thinking, well, does God say anywhere revenge? Or you went from scriptures? Yeah? Where can I get these?
Yeah?
Well that's where I'm thinking. Which way are you going to go with it? What's your interpretation?
I went there and and you know it didn't end for me. I navigate dramas for the next couple of years about this.
Well, an incident like that, people are going to look at you and think you're a weak prick if you don't.
How so, you're watched by the jarl, the inmates, the screws. People's want blood in that place.
You know they're bored.
But that was a true line in the end for me because it showed me in that moment that I'm not I could actually change, I could actually control my violence. If I could. I didn't do what I would usually do.
Okay, So just so I can break that down, understand you're thinking here, So usually there would be retribution for an attack like that, for sure, and you made a conscious decision, in keeping with your faith not to that you weren't going to. And that's the path that you went on as.
The path I went on, and you know, God protected me. I had a lot of navi. I had to navigate for a couple of years.
Tell us what you mean by you, like other.
Dudes coming from other jails to try to kill me again and all things like that, and I just had to deal with it straight away. And end of the day, I still had to defend myself, like I can't I'm in jail, So I just make sure I confront of them first, you know how I am? Yeah, are you here to get me? And then nearly all of them back off. There's a couple that came close.
Yeah.
I got through that, and I was got through it, and I honored my faith and in the end I was able to forgive these guys. And it was a turning point in my life.
Is there a turning point to where inmates? So I'm trying to get the sense of it and the path that you've taken where you start to get some respect back for actually changing your life. Like, I know a lot of people in there want to drag you down, and no, you're one of us. You're going to be coming back. But I would imagine the ones that stand up and separate themselves from the pack eventually or maybe they get some respect.
Definitely when you're one of the guys that used to be a certain.
Way, Okay, that was credibility that you haven't come in soft. Yeah.
I wasn't not a junkie. I wasn't you know. I held myself there. Yeah, I still had morals. Yeah, I've done some horrible things. But when I started to change, was that dramatic it's all the water. I went from hating guys to loving them over time, and my closest mates and even guys that hated me in the end started to say, man, well done, bro, Yeah, like you've changed, and they were actually proud of me, and and they let me go. The system knew that I've changed, and
I'm moving on with my life. I've been given this second chance, I'm taking it. And if someone is genuine in there, because I'll call bullshit straight away. You just watch each other every single day. And I was in there for a decade and a half, so they watch every move of me.
Yeah, of the bullshit, then you can't fake it. Well, yeah, there's someone that comes up for the pro board. No, I found God now and I.
Had approved that to people. He just found God. It's a crutch, even to my own fam.
Yeah, it's a pretty easy easy cop out of this course.
And everybody is saying that you leave God at the gate. Yeah, and I made sure that I didn't leave got at the game.
Okay, study, like you start reading the Bible, but did you get to do any study when you're insight? Yeah?
So when I started really delving into this thing, I thought because I knew it can change people. It's changing me, you can change others. So how do I teach people this? And I thought I got Someone told me, you got to go to Bible college if you want to become a preacher or a pastor. I said, I don't know,
I want to do that. But eventually when I got to Minim Security, I tried for many years to get into a Bible college through correspondence and then eventually I met an awesome chaplain when I got to Minim Security, and he's you know, he kind of evaluated me. He used to sit just like you are, look for holes in me, in my story and what I'm saying, and eventually have about six weeks he said, man, okay, you're the real deal. I wanted what do you want to do?
And I said, I want to get a Bible college. Man, I want to get my degree and become a pastor. And he said, let's try and make this happen. And now I've got a Bachelor of Ministry, I'm a qualified pastor and started my masters. I never went to school, but I was determined to get my education. Wasn't about a degree, he was about getting my education. Yeah, and I was able to get that now. And I started that in twenty twenty when I was in jail and completed it three months after I got out.
How did that help you? Like studying the course that you were studying, but any any study? Do you think that was said? Because purpose O purpose? And it proved to me that I'm not stupid? Yeah, yeah, well you're still that from your childhood.
Yeah, and then I was called maggot by my father.
Yeah.
All my life sticks with you and myself worth, you know. So, and I was afraid of education. I thought they've scared me. So to prove that I could do this, that's what it meant to me. And education is a way of setting you free as well. You know. Now I can get a job, I can be like I lost so many portunities because I didn't believe in myself and had no education.
There's power to knowledge is power, Knowledge is bound And yeah, you can keep yourself physically fit, and that's that. There's a power power in that. The knowledge adds another another layer.
And both together. You can't just be a machine with no knowledge and no education. I was that I was turning myself into this machine. But internally I was still dead.
So you're doing the full on gym.
Trained constantly, but I'm becoming angry and more volatile and stronger. But then when I blended the faith and then my education together, it gave me balance and the holistic balance that you know, my physical, my mental, my faith, it's all in sync now everything was missing before it was one without the others.
It makes sense you need that balance to have.
That balance, and for me, I figured out how I function, that I need routine, that I need to be disciplined, and that's how I've been able to achieve this in the road to transformation.
In the In the prison system, you've said you had difficulties starting, but once you're in there was that something that you think there could be more of in the prison system giving people access to education.
There's limited education, yeah, and there's things you can do, but it's very limited. So they need to offer obviously, trades or things that some that a man has actually got hunger for. There's no point doing something if he doesn't want to do it. But if they give these opportunities to go to education or university and not just cert twos and cert threes, it gives you no qualification. They only give you half a qualification in there. They
need to give full qualifications. I could have done four trades in my time. So the opportunity is there. Not everyone's going to take it.
Though, more fuel them if they don't take the opportunity and if you're in there. But I think there's a benefit to having some purpose and direction when you walk out of a walk out of a prison.
Or if you don't, you're coming back.
Yeah, playing and symbol You think it's that simple.
It is a simple. Yeah, you don't have a plan or purpose. You were coming back because it's too overwhelming, especially after a big sentence.
So how long did you end up serving?
I did four Dane straight.
How would you describe yourself from the time you went in to the time you walked out?
Give us a version of unrecognizable broken. I was a man, but a broken boy inside but in a man's body, just no hope, just angry, judgmental, negative and just totally broken. Now a man that's redeemed and has hope, and not just to hope for myself. I see hope in others. I lost hope in people and I have that back now. And when you've been given a second chance when you
don't deserve one. From what I've done, life is you look at life a lot differently, you know, And I just want to instead of taking everything I've taken, I just want to give back. My life's about giving now and just helping as many people as I can to not go down the road of incarceration, because when you're in that cycle, it's almost impossible to break.
How with your qualifications and the study, what are you doing your master's in the ministry as well? Okay, and where do you hope to steer your career in your life?
Well, I thought pastoral ministry was going to be the key. But I can't get a working in a children' chip because of the charge of murder, and I understand, so I can never get that. I can never be a paid pastor in a church and have that as my profession. So I've had to move the goalposts. But I think it's been the right move and I'm going to I'm starting a charity which is going to launch in a couple of weeks, non for profit charity, which is called
No Chance Movement or No Chance Ministry. And I was classed no Chance from very early on and no chance of rehabilitation. And Jesus turned my chance into a second chance. And when you meet these guys and these women in prisons and in these life that's the language no chance. And I'm walking toward an example. If you take the opportunity,
you can change your life. So now I've been able to go into the juvenile facilities and tell my story of who I was and where I am and what I've been able to get to to give these guys hope hopefully to change your life.
You'd have their attention when you walk into a juvenile.
Definitely, as soon as they those stories knew that some of the things I've said, and then obviously telling them I was there twenty three years ago, just exactly where you were.
You know, they listen and can you do that? And I'm asking this respectfully that if you come there and if you're preaching religion, do they switch off or do It's not so much preaching religion, that's showing the way to live their life for a purpose their life.
For me, I changed my life only because of Jesus.
All that's for you, that's for me.
I'm always going to tell you to go to Jesus first, Yeah, but you just do whatever you need to do to change your life. I'm just there to show you that if you want this more than anything in your life, which I do. I still do now, and it doesn't matter what circumstance you're in. And if you change your victim mentality to victory so you're not a victim, you're a victor, you can change anything.
Break that down for us.
So in prison, everyone majority of the mentality is victor mentality. We do what we do because of what we come from. I could easily sit here and go I did all these things because of my childhood, but that's that's bullshit. I still knew what right and wrong was. I didn't have the tools, the right tools to actually be a functioning I think citizen of in society. I had to learn that. But there's no way I could have got to where I am now if I've said I'm a victim.
I'm not a victim. You know, And that mentality keeps you in the cycle, that keeps you in prison, that keeps you doing the wrong, being hurting people rather than people and justifying your actions. And as soon as I flip that and accept the responsibility and I'm not a victim. It changed everything for me, and that's for me. That's the key.
It's a mindset, isn't it. But it's an important mindset because we can all we can all look at our lives and go, oh, this happened to me. Therefore, this is why I'm doing this. I'd like that, and I think in today's society we probably need it more than ever because people are I haven't got that resilience and I'm talking to younger, younger people and saying, oh, well, this happened, therefore I'm doing this.
But and that's what I've seen, what I've since been out of custody, that mindset. There's no grit, there's no resilience, and I don't know how you teach that, but you've got to. You've got to. You've got to want that. You've got to endure. And I wish people don't have to go through what I've gone through and the tragic events, you know, even losing his life. But and I can
never make up for it. But me changing my life, maybe I can stop someone else doing this, you know, And it's not about me, it's about other people.
If you could make Anthony, if you can just change one person's life. You're contributing to society. Yeah, it's just one person. If you go in there as a group of twenty young fellas or young fellas and girls in detention, then you can turn one life that's making a difference. That's a ripple effect. We talk about the ripple effect from a homicide, how many people will affect. But if you get one person turning around. So what's the message.
I'm sitting here as a smart as sixteen seventeen year old, go and what the fuck are you going to teach me? And you just give it to them, Raw, this is what I've been through and this is what can be done.
I tell them what I've been through. I tell them what I've done. Yeah, but I also tell them that you're not going to listen to me today. Listen to me probably when you're thirty thirty five, in that spot where you mature into a man and then you're going to remember some dude came in and told me, and you're going to remember and you're ever going to act on that or you're going to remain for the rest of your life in the cycle. I said, because that's
what happened to me. I had men talk to me and give me good advice, but I didn't kick It didn't kick in till like thirty Yeah, and then I was like, should have listened. I said, you're all going to jail. I told him when I went to the facility, I said, put your hand up if you think you're going to jail. And they were a bit shy. I said, pretty much, satistically, ninety odd percent a going to jail, and they all gave me the nod. And I said, so when this kicks in, you're going to remember some
of the things I've said. I hope one of his takes it on board now, but I don't think you will, because I never did. I said, but you've got a chance. Don't believe the lie of no chance. And that's kind of I just say it to And they were kind of shocked because they're thinking, I'm just going to tell them change your life now.
But it's not going to happen. Some will.
It's going to happen a lot longer down the road.
Have you had any that have surprised you when you've spoken to them, And yeah, a response that sort of oh, I might have got through to that person.
Oh, some of the sponsors have been really good. Yeah, And I think, well, it may be, but what tools does he have to do it? That's the thing.
Explain that because I think it's an important point.
I wanted to change when I was seventeen, like I wanted out, but I was like, I don't even know how to read and write properly.
I don't know how to speak properly. I don't have.
The tools or the vocabulary to even articulate what's going inside of me and to ask what I need or to tell someone what I need. I couldn't even tell you that I wanted to change. So how are they going to change if they don't have the tools or the support to change they want to change, And that's where the missing pieces. I don't know how we do that yet. There's a kid I went in there. He said at seventeen, only recently that he's no chance of rehabilitation.
And that's his viewpointless at seventeen, right, and the guard that works theres are made of mine. And when I went in there because I want you to speak to him, AJ because he sounds like you and all the things you've told me and I've got to meet this kid and tell him some of the things I've told you've got today. And he was crying and I said, you'll, you'll, You've got a second chance, mate, if you believe it, and he could see in his heart and his eyes that he's like, wow, I do. But does he have
the tools? Does he have the support? And if he doesn't, how can we give it to him? And I think that's what we've got to We've got to get around people and do that.
Okay, how then how can we do that?
First step I think is that the facilities that these kids are in, they've only got guards and your mentors that you know, are their authority. They're police to them, so they don't care what they say. They need to get guys in who've lived the experience. And there's not many men that have changed, and if there are not,
many want to go back. But you need to bring these guys in to show them there's not make sure they're the real deal, but bring these guys into the facilities, let them see themselves that I was you, but you can be me now. And I think that's where we've got to start. And that's what Joe's doing but there's only a few guys that been allowed in these facilities that are doing it.
We've got to change. We've seriously got to give access to these people. I understand the risks and people going, well, why are you going to put someone that's done all these things into the environment talking to young kids. I've got to mate Nada Hampden. I'm not sure if you've heard of it. A boxer, the professional boxer, the top top Blap. He did three years in juvenile center and man on the back of reading Jeff Fannick's book, decided, no,
this is not for me. That was that was, that was his bible, and he said, I'm going to become a professional boxer, and everyone sort of bullshit, you'll be back, you'll be in the prison. He breake the cycle. You know, you say ninety five percent or whatever it going to end up in the adult prison. He actually broke that cycle. And he's been doing talks like that and getting into juvenile detention centers. And I can't stress enough how powerful that would be. Like someone like Nada. I see him.
He's a hard bastard. You there before, and he was there before. He can walk the walk, talk the talk and people are going to listen. And yeah, people like Nata Joe, yourself going in there. If Australi one eighty goes in there and with all the right intentions in the world and probably a damn sight more educated than all of us put together, they're not going to listen.
Well, the common question was when I was there, from these guys, yeah, what do you need? And they all said, these boys, we need people who have lived our experience. And that's eighty boys said that. And I remember when I was there as a seventeen year old Costas who came in, Antony Pullatour and Joane Olava he played for Penrith at the time. They won the comp that year and they were like heroes of ours yeah, and we're like,
it's awesome to see you. Yeah, but what you said to us didn't spur us on because you don't know what we're doing now, what we've gone from.
But someone that's been there, and yeah, that was a that was a I slipped in or I was.
I went back to my cell and it was a young bloke. They're reading his Bible and I go, I said, this is what's going on here? But I got to go and we had a chat. I said I was in this cell mean, and his eyes lit up, Oh yeah, And I'm like, yeah, man, And now I'm not here as an inmate. I come to see you.
Well, you're showing a few, You're showing them that there can be a future.
That's all we need.
And that's like with Joe Navy yourself, this is a future that you could.
Have if you class us no chance to go back in there, or then there's no chance for them either. Yeah, Like if we've got the runs on the board, we've proved that we we're decent people now and we've got the you know, the heart to go back in there and serve these guys. We've got to get him in there. Yeah, because these guys are going to adults who are going to commit more serious crimes and hurt more people and a cycle is there?
Is there a resistance because yeah, it's the system. The system. We don't need you guys coming back telling us how to do it. What where do you find if they're is a resistance, where do you find the resistance comes from?
Well, when I went to the juvenile facility, the resistance was actually not there.
They're they're embracing it and they're desperate.
Yeah, because the post code stuff, like you know, the juveniles have actually segregated. Now before you're all together. Now there's there's gang life. Now the teenagers getting ready for prison life.
We'll see the ship that goes down in Sydney of recent times and.
Sixteen year olds can have people. So the first crime now is murder. Yeah, you don't work your way up. It's kidnapped, kill people.
Now, well, it's across the well the Eastern States and idea say, yeah, across in the western over in the Western Australia as well. But you youth crime. We've got to we've got to try something because what they've all we're trying is not working.
And if we don't try to help them now, our prisons is going to be filled for the next generation. Yeah, and like it's out of control. Yeah, and Sydney is a forty year old man, he's wasted half his life and took someone's life. Like, it doesn't get any worse it m If I've been able to turn it around, you've got to get me in there.
Well, you've turned it around, and that's perceived as the worst of the worst you're a convicted murder and I've turned my life around with the jail system. I did that Breaking Badness podcast series when I went in the Macquarie Correctional Center and the way that they're doing the jailing there as distinct from the traditional system. So we're moved from the juvenile centers. This is into the prison system.
Where and what they were doing. When I saw it, I thought it was really positive and it was a way of reducing recidivism. But what I've got a sense SAT jail had a different feel from every other jail I've been in that there was a respect given. There was respect given from the inmates to the staff, the staff for giving the inmates respect, which is something I hadn't hadn't encountered. I was speaking to a lot of the inmates in there and the fact that they were
given opportunities to make them function better in society. What's your take on that style of prison?
Yeah, I was there. I did two years there, Yeah, Macquarie, and I was taken from liz Go to there, right, so I contained in a cell for seven years and then in open living dorm style and there was a zero violence.
Tolerance and prisons at the prison and.
When we got off the truck, they greeted me as Anthony. Yeah, I've never had that happen. But then as I've stayed there for months and then over the year, they treated you like human beings. Like I've seen the governor come in one day, he raided the unit on Christmas and he said, I know he don't like it, but we're trying to treat you like animals. That's what we're trained to do. I'm coming here as the governor to treat you like human beans. And I've told my staff same way,
and I've never heard a governor say that ever. I thought, okay, and he was actually treating us like human beans. And then what happened. We reacted like human beans, and we started to see amazing things. The boys, yeah, you know, and get an education, working mindset started to change.
It works. No, I'm a big believer in, like coming from the cops, where our way of dealing with crime, and I'm talking from the police point of view. We're arresting people after they've committed the crimes. But if you can prevent it, it has to be a damp site, damn sight better.
Everything should be about prevention. But as I said, like before they lock us up and they forget that we get out.
That's a very important point that a lot of people think everyone goes that they should be in prison, and when they're in prison, they should be breaking rocks and eating bread and water to keep them alive. That's bullshit, because they're going to be let out.
And angry, more volatile than ever been because they've just been.
I've spoken to too many people who have been in the prison systems, the old the prison systems, and I'm sure there's still some bad shit going down. Treats like animals were going to come out like animals, And it's common sense. You've been through it, you've stepped away. You're looking at life differently now. So it's interesting getting your your views on it, what you've been through and where
you're at now. How confident are you if there's a setback in life, because we all know that there's going to be setbacks different things. Have you got the tools now to keep on the path that you're on?
Because I trained myself in custody. I made sure that I did fourteen years sober. I didn't take drugs. I didn't I made sure that whatever I faced, I faced it sober. So I learned how to react like not just react to something. I'd think about what I'm doing. And for fourteen years I trained myself in that. And then now that I've been out for nineteen months, therese
as things have come. But I can say no, I'm confident in that I don't drink anymore, I don't take drugs, and I have one hundred percent confidence in myself that I have the ability now to make the right decision because I do have the tools. And that's the key.
You've got mentors in life now, the people that you look up to and respect and.
About at least three mentors in my life that older gentleman that just speaking to my life hold me accountable, that I'm very honest with and I do the same for them, and they've walked alongside me for many years. And that's crucial. You need to have someone that's older than you, wiser than you, that you can go to and that won't judge you for what you're doing, but hold you accountable or just starting to unpack life with.
I think holding new accountable is important because if otherwise, you can surround yourself with people that the group of everything you do, check yourself. You need someone to call bullshit on you if you get a job on the ball the track.
Yeah, and what are you gonna do about it?
You know?
So the one thing I've learned is that the true character of a man is not what he is, not what he's done, is what he does after. And that's where I always if it's what I do after, Yeah, you know, and that's the key.
Well, it's a pretty poor life if there's no chance of turning your life around. And yeah, criminal psychologists I work a lot within the cops would often point out to me just because someone's done a bad thing doesn't make them a bad person, because I just had my cop had on and gave fuck it, look look what he's done. Well, oh, that that person mightn't be a bad person just because they've done that. It might be a thing that's happened before or after, but you judge on the totality of it.
There's a reason for why someone got to that point. Yeah, And I've learned that, And I was like that, I was so judgment on myself. Yeah, never gave anyone a chance, not even myself. But there's a reason why. It doesn't give you an excuse for what you've done, but you can get an understanding of why you've done it and then and then change so it doesn't happen again. Yeah, and that's that's what's key for me.
You made it or it just came out in the conversation before about thinking before you act. That's a pretty important thing to do too. And I look back at my life and sometimes if I just took a step back and thought about what I'm going to do before I did something, my life would have been a lot easier and in different different circumstances.
And that's a tool that the key tool you need to train. I had a short few so i'd snap and think about after what I've.
Done after it's done, and look as a person that might have snapped a couple of times myself, I've never felt good after it. They like, even if I got on top of the person I'm snapping on or whatever, I walked away. Fuck Jesus, why did I do that?
If it was as soon as you're reflected about it, he gave what a goose? Yeah, Now that is the key thing that I've trained in myself. Just be patient, don't react to something. It's respond response is different to reacting.
Well. I learned something doing a philosophy course and it was about practical philosophy. And one of the things I took away from it you do it. There's lots of you get overloaded with bits and pieces. But we didn't exercise for a week. The purpose of the exercise was before you do something, stop and think what would the wise person do? In the lead up to that, we're discussing what is a wise person all that sort of stuff, but before you act or respond to something, what would
a wise person do? And just check yourself on that. And we had to do that exercise for the week. I reckon I thought with less people in that one week I did in my whole life because I was stopping and thinking and what would a wise person do? And just little simple tips like that. I would imagine, I'm talking philosophy, but I would imagine a lot of what you get from your religion is that type of.
That's what Jesus teaches. Don't do not give the you know, don't go to sleep angry, be patient, forgive. So if I'm patient with someone and process something before I respond to them, I'm not going to act out. So that's what Jesus did for me. That's what the Bible did for me. It taught me and gave me the tools to be patient too, to understand maybe there's something going on for that person, that's why they're acting that way, and don't be so irritable of stupid things, you know.
So it took a long time for me to I suppose grow that muscle, I suppose to able to just stop and not react to people. And that's what that's what my faith does for me. It's it just it just dissolved my anger. Now. It taught me why I'm angry. It helped me forgive the people that did things to me. It helped me forgive myself what I've done, and and it's changed my entire life.
You know, that's what it does for me. Well, it's yeah, it's a huge turnaround. And I'm impressed by how you've turned your turned your life around. Like there's pain pain in life, and you'll you'll cause enough pain, but yeah, steering your life in the in the right direction. For full full credit to you. How's your your your future looking, mate?
The future is and I'm very grateful my future is bright. I've worked really hard to put myself in a position too, to be a better person, to change my life and my faith in Jesus. You know, He's restored all things to me.
M hmm.
It's hard to say that knowing that Eden's family is saying this, will hear this, you know. But I know every day that I'm not worthy of my second chance, and that's that spurs me on to make sure I'm intentional about everything that I do, and everything that I do now is it's not about myself, it's about others. And I don't take you for granted that I've been giving this second chance with life when one man hasn't. And you know, it's almost you almost feel guilty saying that the future is bright.
Yeah, Well, the fact that you can reflect and take it in that way and express it that way. I think the thing that you can do best to honor Bieden is live a good life now and his family. And that's the sense I got from Jessica speaking to her, like they would really not appreciate your just giving this lip service and not living the good life. So the best thing you could do for E and his family is lived the good life I would imagine.
And but they live it for myself, it's living for others. That's the That's what Jesus teaches me, and I believe it wholeheartedly. And the more that I live for other people and see and walk alongside people, now I'm a mentor to others and an example which is incredible m hmm. And I get to see the fruit of people changing their life. And you know, even passed away and his life was tragically taken, but I think many are going to have going to be impacted positively because of this,
and it can't take you can't bring him back. At least I can do good from what's happened, and that's my goal.
Well, I'm wishing you all the best for the future and keep trying to change change people's lives because it's important. And I respect you and thank you for coming on coming on the podcast. It's not an easy subject that we're talking about. You knew it was going to be difficult right from from the start, but you still agreed to come on. And full credit to you and all the best for the future.
Having us on.
Cheers, cheers,