The After Dark Bandits: Doug Morgan Pt.2

The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

Hang on, What am I doing on this one? This is I'm not a killer?

Yeah, but it's a fine life, fine line when you walking to a bank or a tab with a gun.

I totally agree, and when I look back the mistake I made I was a bank teller. I believe that anybody behind the counter and a TV or a bank was trained the same as I was. Because I grew up in a crime family, my capacity to handle things is probably different to people who have been trained but don't have the capacity to handle the actual live situation. So I actually believe that they would be about as stressed as I would be if I was the bank teller.

Well, see, that's the thing when you go in there, and that's why I talk about the risk or before you go in, you do not know how people are going to react when confronted by that situation.

Well, do you want to know how I felt about all that being a bank teller? How I used to think, hope they don't shoot me, because I'll probably be on their side. And now I'll tell a joke that if you had to try to rob me in those days, I would have went one for you, one for me, one for you, one for me, and we'll all go home happy tonight.

What hope did that bank have had? Did you get sacked or did you quit as a talent?

Well, I had to leave with my father.

Oh that's right. Yeah.

Now you said you want a real scoop, You want a real scoop.

Yeah, give us a scoop. We're always out for a scoop, right.

I was a brilliant bank teller, and in those days it wasn't computerized, and it was up to me every night to balance my books. And because I was pretty good at it, the number one teller never used to check my money, and I started to work this out that I was pretty well trusted. We were on the first floor of a building right in the middle of the city in Melbourne. In the basement was a ta

Well, I can't see how that could have gone wrong. If you're lost, lucky you had something to get back.

But it did lose once and I had to sign because this can be done just in paperwork. Yeah, so I made a withdrawal the next day once out of my savings account to balance the books because I only remember losing once. Yeah, I actually did lose eighty dollars out of my own account. You're juggling, but it felt better when it was theirs.

Well, doesn't hurt as much when you lose someone else's money, I suppose. Okay, I want to clarify one thing before we go into this next part. Your brother's still around, yes, and you two are talking. I don't want to cause a rift in the family.

He came down to see me actually on the weekend at rudolg Bar and Pendridge.

Okay, it's not going good. Well, talk us through the police officer that was shot and Ray Koss. What's a factual account of it? When your brother shot Ray Koch?

Okay, I wasn't there. There was never any planning for shooting people that was off limits. If you got to that point, you'd failed. You'd failed our rules of engagement. We had rules of engagement that if the job was too hot, you walk away. His ego didn't allow that anyway. So he drags the copper out of the car. He says, you're a copper. He takes his car keys off and froze into the paddock next next to and shoves the gun into his stomach. This guy who was driving home,

Yeah, Well, there's consequences and the risk. And you've said you always looked at the bank if it's too hot, and look at risks and try to mitigate mitigate the risk.

Let's say I've got you. You're a copper. Yeah, Let's say I've got you. You've got no gun, Yeah, and I've got a gun. I'd be foolish to let you come within arms reach of me, wouldn't I.

Oh, you'd be in trouble if you did.

Yeah, because you're going to have a go.

Yeah.

Just what my brother did. He used to walk up and stick the gun in the side of which means he went to three coppers and allowed all of them to be within struggling range. Now, now I have a flip. Look, I make jest of a lot of things, and sometimes I even make jest of this. Guns are not for wrestling over.

No, that's very true, very true.

I tell you something I'm going to tell you something that I've never said to anybody. I asked my brother why he had got out of the search area after shooting Raykosh and robbing the bank, and look, I don't know if it was accidental, you don't know. We'll never know. I wasn't there. He didn't follow our procedures and continued and that was the result of him not following our procedures of engagement with police. Our rules of engagement should not have allowed him to even be there when the

Now that the rule's been the pac that you guys had made, Yeah, we had rule, We discussed.

Everything was discussed and planned down to the we had in the scrub. We had flash torches, not to be used because a helicopter would see them, but for a pickup point if it was at nighttime. We have codes, and I'll flash you the code if I'm picking you up, and you will flash me back a code, even to the extent if you don't flash me back the code and you're in a car, I won't come out because the coppers might have you in your car. So unless you give me the real code, I'm not even coming out,

I'm happy you're getting me excited. I'd like to be going after you guys. Yeah, okay, we've set up the well.

I think we can do a movie if I saw you. If I draw first, don't draw yours, because I'll let you go home, but you let me walk as well. We'll be doing good that day. But the trouble is you're going to shoot me. Do you know what I planned once to make I was going to have on the back of my bike a rack that was bulletproof so you couldn't shoot me as I rode away.

I think ned Kelly came up with that a few years ago or before.

But I'm not a Ned Kelly fan. I paint Ned Kelly, but I'm not a fan because he broke my rules too. He shot people.

Well, I'm glad you understand that, because I saw the result, whether it was in the stick ups or in homicide where people get shot, that's devastating.

Absolutely. Now, I said to my brother, you got out of the search area, you got to the pickup point if it's too hot and I can't get in because it's too many cops. Because there was a perimeter, and he broke the perimeter, but he didn't bring he didn't break the outside perimeter, so they had a first perimeter. It was about ten kilometers, which was normal than those days either or the other perimeter, yep outer perimeter was a lot wider. And I couldn't get back in to

We are we talking generally here?

Or is this no? This was on the last job. This was the last job, but the same rules followed. The pickup point was at a certain time. If the pickup point was not accessible, wait twenty four hours and go a bit like in the army where they have to be at the helicopter pickup point, you have times to be picked up. If it doesn't happen, it's twenty

Well, you're going to have a ton of bricks coming down on you, that's for sure.

Do you know what I said to him? He said, Oh, they would have They would have shot me. Now I think that is so too faced. I said to him immediately, but you shot one of them, And now you tell me you're going to run because you're worried they're going to shoot you. If I shot one of you guys, I would take my punishment, whatever that may be.

The old head each lived by the sword, died by the sword. If you want to start engaging in gun battles, well, I'm.

Certainly exactly, but I would have. If I had shot one of you guys. It would have been by accident, maybe a warning shot that went wrong or something like that. But I don't think that would have happened. And I've never been really tested. I like to think that I would have been good enough to avoid a full long confrontation. I like to believe, And that's maybe one thing I really don't want to even answer or even think about, because it's horrific if I had to answer that.

It's a hard question to answer, isn't it. What would you do if a cop if I had fronted you with a gun and that was freedom or put the bullet in me? What you must have process that in your mind at some stage when you're going.

I think I really had belief in my strategies because the strategy were going pretty good up to twenty three jobs without a skeeric of evidence. So probably the father went. You started to believe your strategies were working and that you were a good tactician, and you were really playing a game of chess with the coppers and they kept losing.

You said with your brother, like an ego kicked in. That was it a false ego or belief that you both might have had that, Okay, we can get away of this. We're out smartening them. Look they're running around like headless choks.

No, because what I knew, because he didn't see this, what I knew every time we started stealing a motorbike, we were giving you one up. You would go motor like from a motorbike shop and they would usually be country motorbike shops. So what would that mean if if you're you're you would dealt with serial crimes in your life.

Yeah, we might meet the sharpest pencil in the packers as cops. But if in a lead up to a robbery that the motor bike gets stolen in the country town, then the bank gets robbed, Yeah, do it twice? We might start to see something three times we'll be on.

Yeah, okay, I knew what he was doing before I decided not to do anymore. I'll be honest. I tried to talk him into changing our moo, not striking as often and not striking as the after dark banded. Because what people don't realize, and it's still with me today that I stopped. Do you think because I stopped, I was free?

Yeah? When you when you say stop, But like this last job where the shooting, because he got arrested after that, what were you doing looking to pick him up? You see, you're out of it?

What happened? I said, I would never carry a gun again. I would never and I wasn't going to work with him again. But a friend of mine asked me if they could borrow ten thousand to put together an inter state truck business, and I went. Then I knew he was about to pull a job, and he'd been averaging about fifteen thousand, and I said to him, I'll give you assistance, but I'm not in ever again. I need ten thousand for a friend. Now, that was also false

So I've heard of too many old school guys like yourself that have come unstuck because of that misguided loyalty and getting dragged back into things because look, you, I was a favor. Just do this one thing, and time and time again, people sitting here having a chat tell that story.

You want to know the real story? Yeah, and my brother knows it, so I can say this. I couldn't actually look him in the eye at one stage and say he worked on me and worked on me and worked on me when I told him I'm out, So I thought just to end this continual harassment of you've got to do a job, you can't get out. I never planned the job. He told me a job, and a week before he did the last job, I agreed

For it's a lesson that pass on to others too.

Absolutely. So I we take a motorbike to the area, same as we normally did, in the back of a horse float. So you can drive all around Australia with a horse float and you've got horses, you haven't got motorbikes. Nobody's going to suspect a horse robbing a bank. They're expecting if you have a motorbike on an open trailer that I saw that guy this morning driving a Falcon.

GT, I say the logic of your thinking.

Yeah, anyway, So he takes me the area of a job. The job was up at Hayfield. And this is the honest gospel and something I've never spoken about before, but I think these things are important. I knew I wasn't going to pull the job. I sabotaged the bike, didn't do the job right. He knows that the bank didn't go down. Now, in a strange way, I carry a bit of guilt. If I carry that job out and I do it safely, maybe Cosh doesn't get shot.

I see the connection.

Yeah, so I carry that and when the job doesn't go down, he comes back to get me and I go, I couldn't get the bike going. There's something wrong with it. I knew exactly what was wrong with it. I did it. So in a strange way, I have a little bit of guilt.

And say, the job where Kosh got.

That would have gone down to.

That because he had to do a job when you guys were doing this. And then there's the after Dark Bandits. You became the bandit even though there was two of you. You became the most wanted person in Australia. How did that feel? No, they're not most wanted because everyone liked you. Most wanted by the cops because you kept robbing places.

Well, in a strange way, I suppose I wear it as a badge. Yeah, but I see this. I see the funny side to it that compared to a lot of other criminals, I'm a nervous, very non dangerous. So it just shows how exaggerated the tag can be.

And I would imagine that it would have hit the media and you would have been following the media that the Australia's most wanted bandit.

I was looking at my face on the TV, going, God, you're an ugly basard. You better grow a beard.

I was going to ask you this question, but I don't want to get anyone in the trouble. But there's probably statute of limitations. Did anyone else know outside you and your brother?

No, and my wife didn't know. And I'll tell you the truth. I discussed this. We have even friends. How stupid would I be to tell a wife that I'm a bank robber. There's two bad angles. One have you have you got children that play sport and you're worry about them hurting themselves playing sport.

Yeah.

Can you imagine a wife sitting at home while you're doing a bank Yeah, that's that'd be pretty stressful. That's one reason why you don't tell them. The other reason is I'm a professional trained by my father and I'm more akrim than most crims will ever be. But I choose not to rob banks now, so you don't include other people because this is the lesson of life for marriages, break in divorce. Would you like your ex wife knowing you were a bank robber and asking for more alimony?

No? And look, I've got to be on this here. I'm not going to talk about my ex wife. But from a CoP's point of view, they were ex partners. Let's put it just in that term. Ex partners are a great source of information because vengeance can be a terrible thing. And ah, we haven't got a breakthrough, but this relationship's broken up, and let's go have a chat with one.

There's an angle. There's an angle.

Okay, your brothers, he's got to rest it in the lame way by Rick Hasey the cop there, and part of your agreement between that he doesn't talk and you've got at least twelve hours to said.

Hang on, no, there's no agreement. We had a very heated discussion on Sunday about this. I'm going to put this to you. Yeah, Now, all the bank robbers and all the crooks you've ever met, Yeah, could you imagine two of them sitting down and reaching agreement where you're going to lag each other after twelve hours.

No, I was surprised that if I've missed it interpreted that I thought not even going to say a word for twelve hours, because I've had crooks before me that have just sat there and just not said a word. Real hard ass.

On Sunday, he tried to convince me that I agreed to that.

That you give him up after twelve hours, or that he gives you up after twelve Yeah.

So what sort of fool would I be to say to somebody, Yeah, I'm cool with you giving me up after twelve hours? What the stuff am I going? I've cleaned that up, haven't I? What the stuff am I going to do with twelve hours? I haven't got a passport.

I'm not part of your crew, and I'm not your brothers. But I would have expected that if you get caught, I'm not saying a word about you, and if vice versa like, keep your mouth shut.

Well, I'll tell you the real story how the whole thing was set up. There's two parts to crime, and you know this, all right, we do the bank. What's the second part of crime? Having alibis and getting away with it. Even if you get caught, you've got to beat the blue in court. Otherwise, why did you do it? Now? The day he shot the copper, I drove his car to his horse trainer's place. And back in those days we're twins, we looked the same set up. Ali, I

Okay, so you're setting up the alibi.

That's how we worked. Yeah, And the whole point was, and I'm going to give it to you. I don't know if this would work or not. The original plan, which I was willing to stick to but he didn't, was that if he gets arrested and they don't shoot him and he has not id the other brother has probably got a bit of time to think what's going to go down, right, because he's dead. It could have been me that was dead, by the way, not just him. She's my hand is starting to shake a little bit

Yeah, you asked me the question. I can see the complications. I saw it in myin career. I won't mention the actual murder, but the murder where some twins were good persons of interest for it. Then they cause a lot of problems by the fact that they were identical identical twins.

Well, do you know what happened once he got arrested. Let's just say he was helping it in their investigation.

Co operating.

I think, yeah. But anyway, so we're going to now try and beat it in court because you have to pinpointous. Now you know that that's going to be rather difficult.

Well, you've just got to be on reasonable doubt and you walk free.

Now what happened was because he was, let's say, making enough confessions, and the solicitor came in the next day. He said, he see what's going down. He said, you do realize that he's cooperated so much that you're now the bad boy. You know what they said to him. If you make the statements and plead guilty, it won't come out in court and you'll be able to sell a movie. You're laughing.

I'm laughing. I think, if they're going to come up with something, come up with something better than that. But I understand.

Yeah, yep, they got him his ego, they got him.

Well, I've always said in an interview room, you play the person's weakness or you exploit that weakness. Now, if ego, and I'm talking generally here, I'm not saying that's Pete's thing, but if that's ego that sometimes, jeez, you are a good, good bank robber. You've got the way of all these And then oh, I actually did more. Yeah, you play the people's.

Well he did. He told them, he told them about a job that we did as a two man job. They didn't know about it. Now, so what should have happened is we should have been a really interesting court battle, because a court batter gives you power with let's say, a plea bargain.

Well, that's true. If it's a week a case, it's easier to bargain.

Yeah. Now, my solicitor said straight away, he's given him enough evidence that they won't get you on twenty five if you fight it. But they're going to give you ten years for the first one because they're not going to let you go, he said, So you've got nowhere

How did that make you feel like we're pissed off with your brother?

No, I'm a very understanding person. I'm not even angry at my brother. You have to take responsibility because if you keep blaming other people for your life, that means you've got no control.

Well, Doug, that answers a lot to me, because I was looking at your store and your brother's story, and I thought, oh God, we're going to have an hour of you going that doggie did this, he did that, blah blah blah. Yeah, the way I think a lot of people would react. But I understand where you're coming from and that you accept your responsibilities. You're not going to judge others. Everyone's different, so I do get an understanding of what you're saying.

The greatest moment would be in my life if my brother would just accept what he did and stop trying to script the truth to hide his failures in life, because my life had a lot of failures. The robberies, they're failures. You know what I really think about bank robbers and people in prison. I don't like you. I really don't like you. I knocked around with some of the heaviest criminals in Victoria's history, and I played tennis with them on a tennis court. We're tennis players. I

It makes sense. And the conversation we had the other day, you were talking about criminals and even the way you look at there's criminals that commit crime to make money for money, crime for money. Then there's criminals that commit crimes of violence, of vengeance and all the other things that may evate people that commit horrendous crimes, and you deviate between those.

I try to explain it to people. I'm mixed with Victoria's worse or in the jail with Victoria's worst sex offenders and child molesters and all sorts of things. I said, how did I get here?

What? Well?

I'm not this is not natural for me.

That was your first stint inside? Yes, how were you arrested? When were you arrested? And what were you convicted of?

I was convicted of about twenty four to twenty five armed robberies, use of a firearm, stealing motor cars. I was arrested unarmed by about forty coppers. I didn't surrender. I ran down a laneway off a beach and ran into the side of a divvy van right. They jumped on me like a rugby scrum NRL style Up there. All I could hear was grab the bag. Grab the bag, there's probably a gun in it. And all I can think of while I'm lying under all these coppers was

Was nerves, not anger who was shaking you reckon.

I don't know what and you know what I was thinking. And this is how stupid I am. There was a window behind me, and I'm sitting on a desk and as hard against the window. I was seen it myself. Like in the movies, you see all sorts of things. I thought, I wonder what happens if I spring up and I throw myself out through the window. Will the cuffs come off before I hit the ground?

Well? Probably not? Probably not.

Well that's the conclusion I reached before I sprang out through the window backwards. Yeah, and look, I make light of it. This is how I went through my jail.

I do like the fact that, like, jail's a very personal experience, and everyone's experience in jail is a little bit different. But I haven't heard your winge about it. You've got a smile on your face, and there's horrific things that happen in jail, as you know better than I do.

But I'll tell you something. Right here, I'll tell you how horrific it is. See that there? Can you see the cross?

It's a cross, is it?

Yeah?

Ye?

That has cut out of a window bar. And that's for the eight young fellas that hung themselves because they couldn't handle the brutality from prison guards, screws, or prisoners trying to rape them. I wear that in honor of those boys.

So your brother did time in the same prison.

Yes, and there was talk that was going to get him right. And when I walked in and went into the yard, and they were animal yards like cattle yards in those days, I looked around and went, there's seventy people that I don't know, even my brother. Would be better to have him on my side if something's going to go down. So he was the enemy. That was Watterson as bad as the unknown enemy. So can you now understand I'm not worried about what you have done. I'm worried about the next twelve years.

Yeah.

But what I underestimated or overestimated was during that twelve years he would never back me up.

I'm confused. We should do a relationship podcast about you and your brother, because you've still you both built houses together, rob banks and tabs together. And then even after all this shit, after you got out of Joe, you went back in the building together.

Because I look, should I be angry because his level of my expectations was wrong?

No, And you answered that very well before. I do understand where you're coming from. I'm just a little bit confused. You're a very forgiving, forgiving man.

Well I didn't say I forgive. I understand. Yeah, yeah, but I would process it or maybe more disappointment.

Yeah, yeah, fair cool. So your art you're saying you'd already broken away from the life of crime when you went in. So when you're doing your time, you're ten and a half years or twelve, subject to debate. Let's go, we'll add another year.

Yep, we'll probably just served it.

You might go back in after this. I don't think I can sense you. I'd try. You were always you weren't going to go back to the life of crime. It wasn't sort of thinking. So it wasn't a watershed moment in the jail that you thought, no, this life's not for me. You knew at the moment you walked in.

I'll give you something. Yeah, this is a word of advice to everybody in the world, run by Dougie's rules. When you make a decision and you feel your weakening on that decision, stand up and look in the mirror and you ask yourself, yes, perhaps I can lie to other people, but what sort of man lies to himself? So if you make a decision, you know it's right.

Now, yeah, well, you know I'm looking at you, and you don't look like you're a man. That's been broken by life. There's a lot of positive, positive vibes.

You know, they're saying the army makes and breaks.

Yeah.

I had so much adventure and fun in jail. I got shot at during an escape attempt. You know. The screw came down to my cell and haste vision that night, knocked on the trap and said, Dougie, am I okay? And at first I thought what's he talking about? Then I got it. Our family will police you. He might think I'll retaliate in twelve years time.

Ah, I see where you're coming from.

Yeah, we used to sit down years later and laugh about that day.

So tell us about because you do meet up with a lot of the corrective, not a lot that you have socialized. I suppose having a beer with former creative services officers, because what are you doing at the now the new Pentridge jail or it's not a jar anymore, it's a you describe it the bar.

Well, what I like to think is on educating people on the brutality what you're going to expect if you cross the blue line. I like to call it the blue line that you cross, or the cost of crime. There's a cost of crime to both sides. I guarantee you've had the cost of crime.

Yeah, yeah, so you.

Know what I'm talking about. Yeah, there's not really a good story anywhere on either side because prison officers became depressed, they became oken, marriages, all sorts of things because of the stress of the situation. I went out with a prison officer for three years, ten years after I got out of jail, and I learned about what it was like for those guys. She wasn't a guy, she was a woman.

But I mean, yeah, you run with that.

This is show you. I'll show your photos later. And I learn a lot about the jail from the other side, about all the heavies that were giving people up. I have a great understanding for the overall picture. Now as far as have you forgotten the question you asked me that I have, Oh what do I do with brew dog at the jar? It's a very good platform to raise what the price is of crime. If I want to talk about car racing, well let's do it while

But not everyone would be capable of that. I would imagine there's a lot of people that there's a resistance as a blue and the green, and people are.

Sure, well, I like to say this, and you'll look because you're you're a understanding because you've been in the We're not much different really, because we both understand. Right now, I'd like to say to people, why would I be angry at a copper? I don't remember coppers coming to my house and dragging me into a bank and making me rob it. Now I can go the other way because my brother told me that I would not come

So yeah, and I understand it would have been an intense situation when the cops are after you, exactly.

But I don't give them much other avenue. So who's responsible for what my children went through?

Well, you do impress me in the fact that you take ownership all the stuff when you look back at all the places that were robbed. I know and speaking to other people that bank robbers from the past didn't fully appreciate the psychological damage. You walk out. You haven't showed anyone. You think, oh, well, I'm not a bad person.

Well do you reflate the damage is done?

Yeah, you reflect on that.

So the actual stress is perceived stress. But guess what that is real. That is far more damaging. I'll tell you a story from my side. A young fella that believed he was going to be beaten up the next day by a heavy and jail was so stressed he went to his cell with no mother to turn to, no phone call to talk to his brother or his sister or his father. The stress of being beaten up and only by hand, he hung himself that night. It's the perceived situation that stresses people. I jokingly say. Now,

Well, you made that point earlier on that. You know, how's your life or judge of in the last ten seconds of your life and look back and can you face yourself in the mirror and done everything I can? What's a message you'd give for young and like, I don't think no matter what. Maybe there's a retro thing. The music comes back in fashion, clothing comes back in fashion. Maybe robberies and banks come back in fashion. I do so that'd be crazy, but I doubt it. But the

Over the last thirty five years, I've trained many, many young men as apprentices. All of them talk to me with total freedom because they know who I am. There was one apprentice that was selling party drugs pills, and he came to me one day. I know what they're doing, and I'm not going to condemn them. It's not my role to condemn people. I will try and point out what you'll get yourself into. I won't condemn you, and I won't tell you what you can do with your life.

He's pill press.

What happened was they found out and they shot him. Carle probably asked himself, when Carl was doing the drugs at that stage, he didn't perceive himself as being a killer.

You agree, yeah, yeah, I think this is a reasonable way of describing it.

Then they shot him, so he made a decision to retaliate. If Carl Williams walks away when he was shot, a lot of people don't die. But what happens in crime, it keeps escalating out of control. Like my brother when his ego escalated him out of control and he shoots Ray Kosh. It's not this crime or that crime or that crime. It happens. That's what happens in crime. You lose control and you maybe stupidly go to the next level. That's it. That's what you have to tell young people.

Well, I think that's I haven't heard it spoken that way, but that's a good breakdown of of course, in their detail of how it can escalate, and before you know it, you're in deeper than you care to be and the consequences are pretty heavy. Look, I will wrap up on that note. Just the stuff you do with your ard, if people want to reach out to you, and the type of things. What are you doing these days?

Well, probably the only important thing some of the money that I raised from art. I don't know if you can see that. That's a bluestone key ring with Ned Kelly painted on it.

Okay, yep, now.

We sell these things. I still I'm going back working with the Salvos and we'll be selling them for about fifteen dollars and five dollars we'll go to the guys who make them, five dollars will go to the guys who sell them, and five dollars will go to the Salvos. And I've got a deal with one of the chaplains that they'll tell me things that people getting out of young people getting out of jail require to set their

I can understand that you look like you're enjoying your life. Where can people reach out to you if they want to contact with you.

Well, if they go to brew Dog Pub at Pentries Jail and they ask for Doug, they'll be told, no, he's not here today, or he is here today. But I'm retired. So in theory, I'm supposed to be the jail artist and his story and every day after three o'clock, okay, but sometimes I get lazy.

Well, we all need a day off every now and then, Doug, I've enjoyed the enjoyed the chat. Thanks for making the effort and giving this an insight into a world that most of us don't get to sea or fully understand. So that's what I like to do on the podcast. That's what we've been trying to do for years. Let people fully understand what goes on in the world of crime,

You don't seem a bad blake for a copper.

You're all right for an arm Robert too.

That's been quoted in books.

Actually fair core. All right, Well, thank you very much, and yeah, we'll stay in touch.

And one last thing, and you've got to think about this.

Okay.

I will never know if I've ever helped anybody, but it doesn't matter. I try.

I like your attitude on things. Do I can see why you made it through some hard times and come out the other end good stuff. Take care in the back.

Never never, anti bas