Target on her back: Deborah Locke Pt. 2

The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side of life the average persons never exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

Bob Bla.

You know, because you were there.

I know, and I think and the only way I can sort of you look back at it and come to terms with it. Society was changing. It was the wild time.

So wasn't it.

It was a wild West? Yeah, yeah, And it wasn't like society or the community saw what was going. This was like a little bubble, like the jobs, like a closed family. Like what happens and what's seen and what starts not normal?

Now, before we go on, because because I think if people have listened to part one and now we're going to talk about what you've been through in part two and look your your journey is a classic and let's balance it out. Is a classic example of why there needs to be accountability in policing. Because I think what went wrong with some of the squads you were in there was now accountability.

Well they all just closed them down, They closed down the consorts, they closed down the gaming squad. You know, they closed down the savants. They closed offices of sixty officers because you know, they just weren't actually doing anything or they were so the culture there was so bad and they all got an embasty and we're allowed to just walk and resign and not take their pension. And there was bloody hundreds and hundreds took that option, which hate me because of that, you know, Oh my god.

It's another popularity popularity comment.

Yeah, excited, but you know it's yeah, it's bloody red kill us, isn't it.

But like what they're bought in on the back of the Royal Commission and all the changes that accountability. But they've got to get the balance right too, because I would get frustrated in homicide that I would joke that my team started doing actual homicide work at about one o'clock in the afternoon because of all the admin stuff

This is a real shift of this where they just the populations grow on.

Yep.

You know this is with schools, hospitals, you know everything, But with the cops and they just sort of they just fob you off. They don't do they don't do the work when they should. You hand it to a plate and they just don't.

I don't want to bash police. And there's some good senior police. There's a great junior police and all in the middle. But yeah, the culture can be problematic.

Yeah there's pockets. There's pockets. Yeah, where there's still stuff. I've got a website and people send me stuff and they'll go, this station's really off. This is going on, this is going Yeah, like I think I threw myself on my sword. What what my family and myself suffered? And I'm going I have things change? Was it worth it? What I went through? Should I have just shut in my mouth like everyone else and just smiled? And you know I could still be there today?

You know you must, you must. I couldn't do it, well, you must reflect about it. That must cross your mind sometimes. Well I could have done that. That would have been easier life, a lot less pressure and you get piped out, retiring after a stellar for the year career, and and everyone everyone would like you, but no, you couldn't do that, could you. But you can look at yourself in the mirror and go, Okay, well you've done something something that

Yeah, the world changed. And with that would call it was groundbreaking.

It came as a shock and there was an arrogance going around when that was in.

Like the old school thinking they've got nothing. Everyone will be staunch and yeah, look how staunch they were.

All stick together our role. Yeah, and I've seen whole offices and they've sat there and they'll get there and they'll rewrite their duty book to get the right phrase in on a certain day that this is what happened. We weren't actually over here, like you know. The old duty book. The old duty book helped me because I write stuff.

That it's a funny system, the duty book and explaining people what the duty book is about. For any detective, you've got to keep a duty book, which is basically a diary of what time you start work, who you spoke to, and it helps you at more times and harms you in if you're doing the right thing. When you gave the court I spoke to this person blah blah blah, But I think it was your book where

I was going doing this.

I went on that, And so you've got your supervisor ticking it and signing off.

On it and signing off date and timing it. And I'd feel sick every time he did it. And if he just read what I'd written, or he would be go, what Sishu's saying, I'm a corrupt bastard. Yeah, so that was a bit deadly, like that could have gotten a good bashion.

Okay, let's get back to we got you out of the got your cars. You didn't got your cars, got anyone despite the well meaning police minister. Didn't get anyone. Okay, well, let's be fair. One person, but he just kicked the window out.

He kicked the door like tiny little rusty bolts that had fall out.

Okay, well, we've got to try things.

You don't know if they're going to work until you try. You've come to terms with your got the drinking problem at this stage understandable. I picked up in the in the book that you were going to what's the not Alcoholics Anonymous?

You were going to.

On for the Iron and John for your parents, right, and then you've been going there thinking you're pretty good. I'm going to help help my parents and understand what's going on. And someone pulled you aside and say, hey, stupid, you're in the wrong meeting. You should be next door.

You're an alcoholic too. Is that basically? Is that how it played out? It was, and I shouldn't be laughing.

It was a very sad day for me. I What happened was I went to this counselor and she said, look, you need to go to alan On. Your parents aren't normal. And I'm going, oh, you know. And they used to tell me, you know, you can't get married, You've got to stay here forever and look after it. They'd be drinking method they'd point to other old families in the district.

Going what basically drinking buddies, Yeah, yeah, oh.

Yeah, and they go and they were saying to me, you've got to sit on the veranda and drink with us, like this is it?

How do you break it? Family?

Yeah, we're all dying here together. And as I stay going to alan On, I went, well, I went to one meeting and I drove for an hour and a half. I went to Mossman and there was all these old girls and twin sets and pearls, and I'm going, ah, this is recovery, like stab me now, like you know, I'm sitting there. My life's not bad enough. Roger wants to kill me, you know now I'm here. And anyway, they said to me, look, next week, come back and

You know.

And so they did it for my twenty sixth birthday. It was like a stuff you.

Yeah, they did what for your twenty six birthday?

Well, basically kill themselves. Like it was like a you know, like I had to make a choice between getting sober and having AA and having.

A lie, right, Okay, yeah, I've I've rather Yeah, but I didn't realize that was around your twenty sixth birthday.

Yeah, yeah, that.

Or Or and I wanted to stay in the cops. I wanted to get married, I want to have kids, I want to have a life. My life was ship Yeah, e Glanory, you know, a third generation alcoholic in a small country.

Teamor is out in the back of like I lived at Dura for a.

While half of Glinory had water when I was grown, you know, most of them were on tank water. It was one shop.

It was a small little town, long way out. But what it might be very nice now, I don't know.

Still got friends out there, people of Glenaoric, Gleinoria.

Yeah, that's great. It's very flash now, you know. But but back then it was the backwards, you know. And I was going to die there, you know.

And so Irene and John. They died close together, didn't they.

It was a couple of days apart. Like what I did. I got this free trip to Fiji. I'm about to go to Fiji. And she shows me and she says, now, if you don't come home right now, we're going to be dead. You've got to take us to the Hornsby Hospital. And then what they've done is stop it and stop taking their blood pressure pillows, drinking metho. That it was a suicide pack. So I drave them through the Gulf and Gorge, go on the Hornsby Hospital, sat there for

Of shit happening. So there would have been that temptation, But you kept up your commitment with AA and.

I still went to a meeting last night.

You just stay stay focused on that.

That was my commitment to me, and I don't think I would have survived all the harassment and bullying and what went on.

Well, tell us what happened when you went to the fraud squad, because give a sense of yeah, because I know a detective's office and the squad office, how uncomfortable they can make it for people if they choose to what the day one you turn up, this is a new year. You've given up drinking. You want to be a good working detective. You've rolled yourself out there.

You've got and mixed going, don't go, don't go out there, it's dangerous.

And well, what happened when you hit the fraud squad?

It was like the gaming's God, there was like about sixty blokes or forty blokes, I don't know. It was a big office with lots of men and there was one woman. Yep, so there was two single blokes. Ended up with a relationship. I got pregnant, and this is where the pregnancy discrimination when they're going, well you've got to resign. Now the dinosaurs are going, you've got to resign. So that was uncomfortable. I had Kim will Cook come up to me and go, you know all about police corruption.

Kim Cook introduced that John Hadden, Yeah.

He didn't, he didn't get involved. He'd had the Malu matter on that, but he sort of put me under the bus and DEMI knows where all the skeletons are and and I just the autism came out. Yeah, there's a few bustards like a dabe.

You've got Hatten looking for people that can give him after David's or statements about anyone corruption. You gave him multiple statements and you were the only one, but you were actually traveling around the state looking for other other cops and you'd go.

Not one person would do it, not one.

And that was for the fear that they.

Had or just they had they had wives and mortgages, or they were scared they were going to die. They'd seen what had happened to Drury when he'd spoken up like and said no to Roger, and people were scared of dyeing. And Hatten's going I'm going to go to parliament with just your and people were going, oh, she's a drunken slut basically, you know, they're arguing, and yet they had all that film, They had all the film to prove that everything I said was true. That Hatton

The way that they can attack And when I say they, I'm talking generally in the police. You would have been an easy one to tarnish the reputation and that could be enough to break a lot of people. You're a drunken slut, you've done this, You've slept with all these people that they can just pluck out of the air, and how do you defend yourself?

But they don't go out the bloke. They would go at the blake differently.

If that's it's that they tried the hard They used to sit off my house and the bloody i'd been in an AA meeting, they'd be standing up the back of the room, like the cops were trying to break me. Before the Royal Commission, I was in the greatest physical danger before Hatton went to part like when he went to Parliament House and got the wood Royal Commission. That's when I felt say, I was in fear in my life up until that time and after.

Didn't you a boss, and I'm not sure you let me know if you can mention the person, but turn up at your bus stop one time or when something There was that.

Much harassment, it was bloody ridiculous, you know, and being stood over and yelled at and slapped and you know, it was just no one should have to put up with what I copped for years because I was honest.

You were physically.

Physical, physically assaulted by cops. Nuts absolutely nuts how I was treated and just ostracized, you.

Know, And tell us about when you get lost sized in that environment because it can be.

Yeah, and it hurts more than anything because it's your family, Like the police when you go to work, you're trusting on your partner to protect you in your life with a gun, like you know, it's a club, it's a family. And I was pushed out like my biological family rejected me, especially because I stopped drinking and I joined the cops. But then my police family rejected me. So in one lifetime, that's a lot for a person that have to enjoy.

Know, extremely hard hard journey.

Yeah, and full credit to you. You can see there have a laugh and the smile on your face with all that you've been through. But I know when you talk about that police family, I went from I thought that people might care, but you got charge. She's talking about corruption. I stand by what I did. I'm not ashamed of what I did. I was actually doing police work,

It was horrible. People that just turned their back, Yeah, because they're scared they're going to get the same treatment. They're going to get tired with the same brush. Yeah, you know, it's it's.

Well, I had people that supported me. Anyone that openly supported me got a disadvantage because of because of their support, and like the rumors and reputations that can be spread, it was also subject to that. I was apparently the baddest man in town when when they caught me for recording a conversation on the listening device, it calls from ABC reporters when it broke in the media that we've been told by police sources, this is a tip of the iceberg. This is your They're going to get you

They all get hard.

It can be so what you went through and my era when I had hit my hurdle was a lot after and weaker than back in your time.

So I can only imagine what you were going through.

Yeah, I was in fear in my life.

The Okay, you have been widely recognized as a person that was the genesis for the Royal Commission, giving credit to Hatton as well.

Who and was it Morgan? Yeah, because even.

In the even in the media thing, the police have control, Like if you go against the police, you don't get the story, that's right. Yeah, so they have the control there. So you did make it.

Arthur King. Arthur King is a wonderful man.

Yeah.

So the Royal Commission that made a difference, Like I saw the difference the job change made in the police.

What's what's your your take on what the results of the Royal Commission were.

I'm I'm sorry that they didn't take seriously like the Advisory Commission, that committee that I was on, like you know, or that they they look at themselves seriously and I think but the culture definitely, I mean while I was there. It was a time when there was going from no mobile phones to mobile files and computer and so everything changed a lot, like I but yeah, it's it's changed for the better. There's more women. I think women have improved the environment, the.

Culture a lot more.

I think, I think society has changed a lot. They expect a lot more from police, more answerable and people are, you know, willing to speak up more, you know, even if it's anonymously through the Internet, there's they're more answerable.

But yeah, it has has changed, and it has changed for the better.

But but everything's changed for the better. Like things. It's yeah, it's society is improves or you know, goes. But how it was had to stop just out of control. The boys are out of control, Like it was ridiculous, how the crooks were basically running the circus in some places, you know, like people were jumping the Roger, jumping the Lenny McPherson, Louis Bao, who's how holding court everywhere and had Jabe Saffron and your Frank car Kim with the gaming stuff, and it was.

Yeah, and I agree, people ask how do I think about it? Because I was one of the few people that was working in major crime detectives prior, during, and after the Royal Commission. So I've seen the changes, some things for the good, some I didn't like. There was who was a deputy commissioner. I think it came out and said all detectives are a disgrace and we all should be sent back to uniform and stuff like that,

Back before us, there was the tow truck rackets, and there was the window rackets where they were smashing the windows of shops at night. They had paybacks from the glaziers, you know. So there was always been I mean you go right back, and the original new Stuface police were convicts, you know, they were the rum corps. So there's been a slow progression, but I think with the wood world commission a lot of the bad apples, and they basically they were saying I was a bad apple because I'd

It was a horrible time. And I wonder how like did that sort of play on you too, because there.

Was oh yeah, people said to me, you're costs people there.

Fans became very dramatic and.

Look, I copped a lot of ship.

I wanted to ask about what's his name, Glenn McNamara, talk about talk about like he made a stand and yeah, about fighting against corruption and all that. And it was a spokesperson I sharing sharing a stage review about fighting corruption he.

Did he did. They said, look, he's doing a book, come and support him down the cross. We've got a photo in the paper his arm around me, and that was an interesting night. But Glenn, Glenn was.

More good and just to let our listeners or viewers in on it. We shouldn't be laughing, but Glenn McNamara the pillar of Yeah, it was the former cop that got locked up with Roger Rogerson for the murder of Gow.

Yeah, Jamie Gow.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's horrible, horrible murder and he's in prison for life with that.

I used to go down. I used to go down and watch him at court and I'd wave Hi, Roger. You know, they just look at me, you know, when they were charging when that, yeah, when they were Supreme Court with that, and just I just felt so good to see Roger and the dock, you know, and Roger

You know?

And he was doing his private inquiry, him and Glenn were doing it, and I did the happy dance in the lounge room when it came on TV, and he'd been looked up and I'm dancing around the lounge room and people are looking at me, and I'm just going, finally, you know, and this is the modern technology. Like in the old days, they could do shit, they could kill people, and you.

Know that that was literally it was a lot easier. It wasn't It was a lot easier.

And he was Roger and everyone was.

Just Roger, the old dinosaur had not caught up with technology that well.

He had the gunpowder all over him. And it was like a video in court because it showed them driving up, turning up and Jamie gowerd they'd been over I think it was crime commission. Someone else was looking at the people that had supplied the drugs, and that's how they came on to Roger. And they all got excited like

Doesn't it show the character of the people that they're so called tough guys. And I saw blokes that had reputations that never roll, staunch, all that, and then they rolled when the corruption stuff came in.

There's some bizarre part of.

Me, or it's not bizarre. I think it's understandable. I have more respect for crooks that say, hey, I'm a crook, this is a code I live by, and yeah, I'm not going to talk to cops. I can understand that they might agree with but I understand their moral compass. But the cops are the corrupt cops. The hypocrisy of it and then hiding behind the badge and the gun, yeah, I really have an issue with that.

But Glenn, Glenn wasn't wasn't honest. I've got a few Glenn stories, but but that reputation, yeah, yeah, but you know, and it's like.

So when he was, you know, the champion of exposing police corruption and talking about that was he talking to talking to you like as an equal, going yes, we had to stand up.

I stood up, your steps stood up.

It was more I've been a victim and I've been harassed. That was his that was his platform, you know. But Glenn was always interesting, was in interesting places, and you know, he was always going to get in trouble hanging out. I just think Roger couldn't stop, like he was a cowboy and Glenn to be with him and doing the private inquiries. They put some guy in the boot of the car just before that he nearly died and they'd driven back.

Well, that was Roger had the charisma, yeah, and.

Then and could play piano. He was in the geriatric section in.

The in the jar.

But like everyone that worked with him said, he was charismatic. But a couple without naming names of people that I consider genuine straight tough guy cops said he was. Really he's a physical pussy. He would talk around talker, is a tough guy. He shoots people, but he couldn't hold his hands up to defend his life. But he had that reputation, Oh that's it.

Every Well, that's how people bowed to him, like that's what got me. The cops were all wanting to be Roger's mate, and they'd all want to sit around at the Chinese he always liked. He liked Chinese, so there's a lot of a lot of meals at Chinese restaurants.

I saw there was a scene from The Underbelly Golden Mile with the Chinese restaurant.

I think I recognize the Chinese restaurant.

Well, yeah, that well, the cops are all wearing gold rings, and they're my and their gold rings because there was a Chinese guy. Theres a couple of you suck car sales guys there, but they obviously.

These are always car salesmen that were as a young detective.

Vote they don't know the names. They always have memories of Oh, just coming for a drink with Blake. What's you do is your car?

Well, it's a good way to a load of money. But this was like this Chinese guy. His jewelry shop had been broken into it and so all the jewelry had gone. But the court seemed to be wearing a bit of wearing. But yeah, yeah, they were celebrating. They're having a celebratory dinner. Yeah for you know, But it was just ridiculous. It was just so out there. Yeah, the party and.

Made no effort to no effort to hide it. Well, you know, it was part of the part of the culture. Like remember when you started North Sydney, so you would have had it. I stationed. I you had to do the bread run, which was picular bread from the bakery, which was.

We were six division, we thought paddy wagon with for Christmas.

Yeah, well that was.

What rank you were, how much be how many cartons to be.

Going round to McDonald's Donald's licensed premises, and it was do you want to make a donation to the.

Christmas party? And cart and a beer in the back of the car.

But that's how society was back it was and that's like beer out for the garbage. But we got cartag.

That's that's right.

And it was just sort of the next a little bit of a creep from that. I always I felt uncomfortable with that, and I don't know if that reflection of the straight one eighty attitude I had towards it, but it was humiliated me walking into the bakery and walking out with your tend loaves of bread to take back to the police station and the McDonald's that don KnightShift didn't help either.

Free McDonald's.

Yeah here, we haven't sold this, will drop it off and you're seeing there at two o'clock in the morning.

Yes, but it was a different era.

It was a it was a different era, but it.

Was there was a lot of dark shit going on, much worse than that behind them, and that was there was bad stuff that went and the pedophile what what really besides the break and anything and the fingers print. I was sitting with this very very senior cop and I was pissed, and he was pissed, and he said, what's the worst thing you've ever done? And gone, and

Think there should be everyone's pet hate. Yeah, we've had people who have been victims of stuff that went on the cross.

And that's Dolly done stuff. You can't there is no way you can justify that.

Yeah, they were taken, Yeah, they were taking money from all different people. But taken money from pedophiles. It was just that's the lowest of the life.

I normally normally asked people that have had careers in the policing, would they recommend policing now for a while, Well, give about But before I asked that, let me ask this. Having said that, let me say this, What was it that attracted you to becoming a detective in policing. So I'm asking you that first, and I'll ask you whether you would recommend it.

Well, it was interesting because like with Underbelly, it was The Golden Mile, the series that I did and I sold my book rights for that. It was Johnny Braham, Kim Hollingsworth and myself. And Kim came from a police family. Her father, uncles were police and that, and she ended up in the cross as a prostitute and her sisters. And I came from a very different family, rough family, and I did the opposite and rebelled against my family too, and I ended up in the cops. And so it's

I wanted to do the right.

I was unfortunately as a relatively young detective in homicide working with a team.

I'm just going, wow, yeah, I get paid for.

This, But it's an adrenaline Russian. You've got the lights and the sirens, and you're doing good stuff and you're making people's lives better and you're saving the day, and you don't know what you're going to do every day you walk in the door. I loved being I did not want to not be. And I was begging them at the end. They had me their blood photocopy and I'm going, please fix the problem and let me do my job, and they're just going, it's easy to put

What would you recommend if someone, a young person, whether its male or female, is listening to this podcast, would you recommend policing as a creed?

Yes, okay, yeah, because it's very character building. It's chammy. If you can survive it, I'd say, never let anyone own you, never take a dollar, never just enjoy, be safe, try and survive it, stay alive. Yeah. Well, it's a wonderful family. The family are blue. But when you get ostracite, when you get kicked out of the family, it's a kick in the guts. It really is. It's bloody horrible.

And I've heard a person I respect say that the only thing you can hang on to is your integrity. And if you give your integrity away, you're gone.

You're gone, You're gone.

And I've seen people sell them their soul for a bloody twenty dollars.

Yeah.

Yeah, and it's sad and they're cowards. The couch. You've got to have a strong backbone. You know, it's about to take the hits on all levels.

Your book, Watching the Watching the Detectives.

Yeah, it's coming out on audio very soon. Statue for that. Read that before I read it, the guys halfway through it, the school guy's doing it.

I did.

When I say enjoy it. It brought a lot of memories back, and that may reflect on a lot of things. But it's an interesting read and you don't pull any pull any.

I write like I talk, which means it's very eusy, it's very it's real. They wouldn't print a lot of it because they were just going, that's un publishable. It's not in the public's interest to know that those things happened behind closed doors. And you know, so it was very well legal, and some of the names were changed to protect the guilty. But it's a good road. And then there's Underbelly the Golden Mile, through which you know, I sold the rights to it for that and and

And you do. You're doing a lot of a lot of other stuff too.

And I've always been active with the autism stuff.

You know.

I started up an autism group in the Inner West when Hayes was young, which went for about fifteen years. And I have a carers group now that I run once a month, and you know, support people that are caring. And I always like to give back to the Commune. And I'm working on a project at the moment in relation to women's issues and stuff. So it's like this talk's being looking at it from a women's stuff, from a women's angle.

Look, you've gone through life making the difference, and it hasn't isn't an easy ride.

But I love I love your.

Character that you can still sit here and laugh and find some goodness in the world.

And the world's a better place that I don't drink. Like, imagine if I'm like this sober, can you imagine me on the grog like I was always. I was always everywhere I went, I'd be in trouble, like wherever the trouble was, and they'd get me in the But they go, we've got ten people, They'll say, you were there that day. I'm gone, Remember I was in blackout wherever there was trouble. I'm going, there's a drink on.

Oh I don't get blackout. I just pass out. That's better, just pass out instead of the blackout. Hey, I'm going to finish. But I just want to say that thank you for what you've you've done. And I say that with all genuine sincerity that you made a difference in the policing. And I think you've made policing for people joining so much difference because you had the courage to stand up. Your legacy is still carrying on to this day. So you should be very proud of yourself.

And you kin't of fear. You can't fear. You just got to live your day and have the best day.

And I think I think that's the way they'll approach it. There. This is what this is what they did.

Yeah, you've got issues. Yeah, And so occasionally I'll get someone pull me up in an elevator or somewhere and a starewell, and I'm not afraid. Don't be afraid. You can't live your life and fear. You just And that's why I travel, That's why the bracelet. I travel a lot, and I have a good time and I party. I go to a lot of see a lot of live bands, and I love my music and I have fun with my boy and have a great life and stuff.

And that's.

Thanks and thank you Gary for all you do to this is great.

Appreciates.

It's a bloody hard road. Laugh you've got a laugh.

Yeah, Okay, good stuff.

H