The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome back to part two, our check on the eye catch killers. For those of you that didn't hear part one, Harry told us about his experience of being sexually abused by his stepmother from the ages of thirteen to sixteen.
Delving in really deep, I got to say, like the emotional trauma and everything else, the impact that has on your life and the way that you articulated, And I asked you during the break, how old you are. You're only twenty four. If you speak with a lot of wisdom for a twenty four year old.
Yeah, I appreciate it. You know, when we share these stories, it's not about just sharing it for the sake of sharing trauma. It's about sharing it because you know, I want people to be able to pick up lessons from this, to ensure that it doesn't happen again, to ensure that the next kid doesn't even experience it, doesn't experience even a tenth of what I had to.
Well, I think with people like yourself coming out and speaking about these things, because the trouble with child sexual abuse, it gets swept under the cup so much. Because it's such a confronting subject, people don't want to talk about
it and will avoid at all costs. So when someone like yourself is prepared to come out and say put your hand up and say, hey, this happened to me, this is the impact on me, I think a lot of people listening will start the dawn on what we're talking about with child's sexual abuse, because it's very easy just to put it, sweep it under the carpet and forget about it.
Yeah, it's easy. It's unfortunately the way that you know, society has treated the subject matter of child sexual abuse. It's you're right, it's allowed people to it's given people license to turn a blind eye to it. And you know, individuals like me or other activists who are out in the space, you know, really speaking about these issues. I think for me, what I find is my job is to pull that narrative back and that belief back and say no, we have to sit, we have to listen, we have to learn.
Yeah, well, you're doing very well at getting people to understand what you've gone through.
Thank you.
So we left part one that at the age of fifteen, you found out that your step mother, who was sexually abusing you, had become pregnant. Your father heard that vaseectomy. He was under the misguided belief that the child was his. I think you received a text when they are overseas on the holiday, your father and your step mother in the Philippines, and she texts you and said that she
was pregnant. You're living in the same house, you're seeing the step mother who's sexually abusing you, and sexual abuse just doesn't seem to be enough. It's the mental manipulation, the psychological manipulation. What she was doing to you, basically stuffing up your life, like changing your life, putting your life in the direction that it shouldn't it shouldn't have gone. You found out, you told us that you found out that she had had the child when you're working doing
pre apprenticeship training as an electrician. Did you go to the hospital?
I did, Yes, I did, And I remember walking in there and the sort of weight of the reality of what had happened really kicked in because the life, you know, the life of that little girl was right there in front of me. And I was, on one hand, because of that scale of manipulation that occurred, you know, part of me was really excited to be a father, but you know, the sexual abuse that I went through really sort of put my aging process into supercharge, so to speak.
So I was, you know, wise beyond my years at that age, and I just thought, this is going to be a real challenge for this girl, and I'm going to have to navigate it. And I remember, you know, because I was saying in the last episode, I'm quite tall and have long arms and long legs, and my father's not necessarily that tall, but my little girl had these long arms, and I thought, oh, is that going to be a way for them to find out? And
I was worried about that. I was worried about nothing to do with me, but the protection of my daughter. And as strange as it is, as it is and hard to comprehend, the protect of my stepmother.
Yeah, well you articulated how that came about in episode one. Looking at it, Yeah, some of the happiest, proudest, most significant moments in anyone's life. I think if you ask anyone, they'll say the day my child was born. Yeah, that seems to be a narrative that everyone rolls out. I'm
trying to comprehend. You must have had that overwhelming, that emotion that it's hard to describe the emotion of seeing someone that's part of you that's now there, but also knowing that you can't publicly celebrate that talk to anyone about it. What was going through your head when you walked in there, and those type of mixed emotions that you're having.
Just as you said, the mixed emotions, an intense amount of confusion and an intense amount of shame. I felt as though I played a significant role in this happening, as well, we had a child behind my father's back. Not I was sexually abused. I thought I engaged in a consensual relationship with my stepmother and we had this child behind his back, and now we've got to try navigate that situation of pretending no, that's actually my sister. So it was the weight of that stress and that
toll on a fifteen year old boy. It's immense, it's unimaginable. The fact I'm standing here today is quite a testament to my own resilience. And yeah, it was just, it was just, it was just a looming weight that I knew I had to put my head down and get through and survive.
Use the word shame, and I've heard so many people come on this podcast that have been victims of child sexual abuse, and it surprises me and shocks me. I understand it. But you're made to feel like you're guilty of doing something. Do you want to just talk us through an understanding of shame because you not on your own and that's that's why this crime is so horrific.
Yeah, So, as you said, shame is a constant throughout survivors of child sexual abuse. They were made to feel as though they played a significant role in what happened, and part of it is because of that expert manipulation that perpetrators employ. It's part of the playbook, their playbook, it's part of their standard method to ensure that they're victims. What they're trying to do is make sure that they want their victims to feel as though they're on an
equal playing field with them. They're invested in they're invested in it, and they groomy and coercial, not with explicitly with language and you know, making you feel loved and making you feel like they entrap you in that and you're swept up in the moment.
And you're looking for that love.
Yeah, you're looking for that because they create that entire ecosystem where they can provide that love, but they can also provide you know, they provide everything to you, and
that shame. It's very common because it's it's part of degrading the victim and making them sort of you're degrading them, but at the same time, you're also building the victims up to ensure that they feel as though they're they're part of it as well, that they're on eat that the level the playing fields a level, and perpetrators of child sexual abuse have to have to work to do that at length because the disparity between adult and child is so distinct, like even visually, you know you can
see it, so they have to work even harder. It's not like I'm not taking away the severity of it, but like an adult relationship where domestic violence or coercion make coercive control maker, you know that the playing field is so uneven. So child sexual abuse defenders have to work to to level that and make those victims like me feel as.
Though bringing those victims up feel like they've got skin in the game, and if this blows up, we're all in trouble exactly. That's horrible. So you were saying in part one that your daughter came home and you're pretending that it was your sister, that that was a breaking point where you had to move away from the place there was resentment of your father because he would have been strutting around a look as a proud father of
the newborn. You said, the relationship then with your daughter became the calling around, taking her down to the beach, playing with her as if she was your sister.
Yeah, so I was sort of the older brother, you know, coming over, just being a great older brother, a really involved older brother. And that's sort of the narrative that I played for many, many years. Yeah, taking my girl to the beach and taking her out for ice cream. I'd pick her up from her preschool sometimes and walk her back home before I go to back to where I was living at the time. And yeah, that was sort of because the sexual abuse seeks when I was sixteen?
How did that stop? Can I just ask how? Yeah? What was the line in the scene that?
Of course? I actually I just remember the final moment being a sexual act that took place on my sixteenth birthday, and it sort of just seesed after that. It's sort of there was a Again, it's confusing to explain, it's probably going to take a lot to unpack, but there was a trip to the Philippines where we wanted to show the newborn my newborn daughter. My father and my stepmother want to show what they thought was their newborn daughter to all my stepmothers half of the family and
the Philippines. I joined them for that trip. There was and I haven't spoken up publicly about this before, but there was a second perpetrator a woman when I was sixteen who sexually abused me. As second time I was raped by a different woman over in the Philippines. Yep. And my stepmother saw that as an opportunity to sort of get out of dodge by saying that I cheated on her. Yeah, okay, that's when the relationship ended, or I say relationship in quotation marks. But that's when the
sexual abuse ceased. And then from that point on when we got back home to Australia, the dynamic was, Oh, I'm just you know, fathering. You know, we're co parenting.
Okay, so you've gone over the Philippines, the sexual abuse was still continuing after the child was born. After your daughter was born, then there's a woman over there. And then on the basis of that, and again you're a sixteen year old boy, sixteen year old boy in that environment and taking the anti job. Then the step mother has manipulated that by pointing the finger at you accusing you cheated on me. So that was an excuse to get out of dodge, right as in in the relationship,
this is outrageous. How could you cheat on me? Do you think it was all part of her manipulation. Definitely hindsight, of course, it will set you up for it. Basically, of course it was. It was an opportunity for her to you know, maybe, and again I'm.
Just sort of speculating me as her mindset. I can't clarify for sure, but maybe it was her thinking her and I were getting sort of too close to teetering on the edge of being caught. Maybe she thought, yeah, we were teetering on that edge just too closely, so she wanted to cease it and sort of try to change the dynamic of the relationship.
I'm looking through my suspicious mind as a former cop. I'm thinking what she was setting up there, that the bullshit that she been telling you for those years, you're becoming more You're brought into it and actually believing it. And I would suggest that she'd start to think, well, I'm never going to be able to cut this off because you're actually going to start putting on her. Well, when are we running away to raise our daughter. I think that she's looked at that there's the safest.
Way to way to get out of that accountability.
The manipulation of the seat is just despicable, isn't it.
It's just through the roof. I don't even know another way to articulate. Gary, It's just such evil, just just pure evil.
Okay, we're talking.
I've never spoken about that.
No, Well, I appreciate you with your honesty, and I think the way that you are explaining the situation that what's happened to you, people can understand what you've gone through. Like I'm sitting here and I keep thinking back and when we took a break of speaking of the producer and we're talking about you went through all this as a fifteen year old. What you were dealing with. How hard that is to process all the emotions and things that are going through your mind at that stage.
Very very adult situations that are sort of imposed upon a child. It's a very strange dynamic to be living that through, and not even adult situations that normal adults go through as well. It's very toxic and awful.
No, that's an extreme situation to go through as an adult with all the things that adulthood prepares you to deal with the things that happen in life. So you've come back from the Philippines after that, the dynamics have changed and you've moved out of.
The house correct with another relative.
You're back here, sixteen. The sexual abuse with your stepmother has stopped. You're living in another house. You're keeping a relationship with your daughter under the pretense that's your sister. It's your sister. Was there some joy in that? Yeah, of course, tell us about that, because yeah, we're focused on the negative. But there's something beautiful in the world that your daughter's coming with.
This little girl and is just the light of my life. And I haven't seen her for many years now. Those moments that I did have with her were just so special and just so so lovely and beautiful, and you know, all I wanted to do, even as a sixteen, seventeen year old boy, eighteen year old, but just dealing with this and navigating it, I just wanted to ensure that she had the best and provide that because I knew that the life that I was living was chaotic. I
didn't think it was. I felt comfortable in the chaos because I was privy to it, like that's what I was exposed to. But I knew it wasn't. I knew it wasn't what a child should be brought up in. And even then, I wanted to take on the mantle of being her father and sort of provide as much as I possibly could with the means I had at the time. And she was witty and funny even as a little girl, and just quick, and I just loved
everything about her. And I cannot wait for the day that we get to reunite and come back together and I can explain to her that this wasn't her fault.
And they explained to her how much you love her and how special she is in your life. How old was she when you last saw her?
She was three? There she turns she turns nine this year.
Okay, that's a lot big part to miss out. Yeah, I'm sorry you're going going going through that as a three year old button. You're seeing the personnel that you're seeing the character they are. So you've got those those men. I see the smile on their face, so clearly she she went over a dad. Yes, pretty easy, and she I.
Mean it of it should have, you know, struck a few chords at the time. But she looked like her dad too. So I'm glad there's two good looking individuals.
That's that's great, And I'm glad you can take some joy from what you've been for you deserve some joy, so you shouldn't You shouldn't try and hold back on it now. Of course it's special, and yeah, that sexual abuse cheated you of something very very special. Yeah, at Tarmi.
It did, it did. And you know, as you were saying, you know, most parents attribute one of the best days of their lives as when their kids are first born. For me, even that part of it was taken stolen from you. So I just look forward to the day that I can provide for that little girl and give her the life that I know she deserves.
Well, I'm sitting here looking at you and listening to you as a twenty four year old man. I think you've got big things ahead of you. So it wouldn't surprise me if that plays the way it should be, because I think it's amazing the way that you've come through such a difficult path.
Thank you.
So at nineteen, what's your relationship with your father between the ages of sixteen and nineteen?
Is that strained quite minimal but it operated better at a distance. It was. It was problematic when we were sort of under the same roof, and that as I was saying, you know, because the reason my father and I where it was was because of the dynamic that my stepmother put us in. You know, it's the only way we were like that and still to this day, why me and my father just because of the dynamic that my stepmother has put us.
Like you're seeing the manipulation that she was imposed on you. You can only imagine what game she was playing with him too.
Yeah, so, and you know, for all my father's faults and he's not the greatest individual in the world, but I can understand where she has manipulated him and what she's been putting in his era as well. Yeah, it just would twist his head as well, So I acknowledge that.
Yeah, well that's that's bigger for you to be able to see that side of it, because she's not going to just manipulate one person. You're quite right that I should call it the evil step mother because starting that, Yeah, she even stooped, not even lower, but another act that was despicable. And do you want to tell us about that?
Of course, So at nineteen years of age, so this would have been twenty nineteen for me, she wanted to leave my father. The reasons I don't know I wasn't president in the house, and you know, me being the sort of co parent of my daughter, you know, I wanted to ensure that the mother of my child was Okay, that's my thinking out.
Of time, I understand.
So okay, Well I presented these opportunities, like these ideas, I said, oh we can. I'm still under this coersion. I still think I was in a relationship even at nineteen.
Yeah, so I hadn't got the help yet. You hadn't dealt with that. So your emotional growth is stunted from the time you started getting sexually abused. It hasn't really progressed.
No, not at this point. And so she wanted to leave my father. I get a call one day. I'm in my apartment. I lived by myself at this point. I get a call from my father saying, oh, can you go check the house. Can you go check on your stepmother and the baby, because I've got all these bank transactions on my thing, and can you just go
check that they're there. I go there and all the cupboards are, everything's been taken out, everything strips, everything's been taken She's flown to the Philippines to evade to leave my father, So she knew that in order for her to have an opportunity to leave the country, she had to sort of wave the red flag somewhere else, and my dad would follow the red because he's likable. So what she's done is she's sent him an email that says that I raped her, meaning me, I raped my stepmother.
And then I remember my father forwarding me that email, and he forwarded it to my biological mother as well, and then my biological mother called me and said, what's going on? And then I just was obviously in a state of I can't I cannot believe what's happened.
Anyway, where do I start again?
So my mother's picked me up and I said, and she said, Harry, is there anything you need to tell me? And I remember I was sitting in the passenger seat of a car. Wasn't looking at my mother, I was looking straight ahead, And I said, Mum, I was I engaged in an affair with my step mom behind Dad's back. And there's a higher possibility that my daughter or my sister could actually be my daughter. And that's the first time I ever told someone that's heavy.
Yeah, yeah, how did your mum react?
Oh? Her face dropped when as white as a ghost. I think there was potentially, and I'm I'm not accusing her of anything, but there was potentially a feeling that something was off, but she didn't feel that it went to that extent. And I think I just confirmed that sort of off feeling she had about me growing up in those teenage years, and that sort of dynamic I had with my stepmother. It was a bit off, but she could She never, in the wildest imagination thought it would have gone to that extent.
Yeah, So the rape allegation, was it the formal complaint or was it just a hand grenade frone.
Hand grenade thrown via that email in that in that email?
Yeah, And so how did your father deal with your response?
Yeah? So when my mother picked me up, I knew that I wasn't safe being in my own apartment by myself, So I went and stayed with mum for a few days. And that's where me and mom sort of had like an ongoing conversation because this is blown up for her as well, and we're sort of trying to dictate what the best course of action is. And then that's where my mother went and approached my father and had a
conversation with him and said, this has happened. I need you to you know, and that dynamic was sort of settled.
Yeah, when did she say in the in the email when you supposedly raped her, was that it was just a broad just cause causes a drama. Yeah, your relationship with your father at that point in time, did you tell him after you told your mother what happened?
I wanted to avoid it, but it got to a point where he came over to the house and sort of wanted to instigate a discussion to sort of make sense of what the hell happened. It was presented that this was many years in the possibility that or the very highly likely chance that my sister's actually my daughter.
So when you adjusted with him on that occasion, did he accept it?
It was honestly to his credit, and I don't like to give him credit that much, but it was. It was quite It was just taken with a sense of shock and a sense of just that dynamic that we were talking about before, where like like he thought that I engaged in it, and he went, oh, just like it was really interesting point in time where it wasn't reactive. It was just he was actually.
Quite it's sobered him trying to the full.
And then he went away and then sort of obviously there's been a thing where she's gotten in his about what happened because he's been presented with facts, he's obviously taking it to her. She's shown her side of it, and he's changed his viewpoint since then.
As in taking her side. Yeah, she's a master manipulator, isn't she?
She is? Indeed.
I just want to read something about this is one of the interviews you've done about the impact it had on you, and I think it sort of encapsulates what you were going through. I'd got to a point where I wanted to take my own life. I was twenty, my daughter had been taken from me, I was falsely accused of rape. I had the memories of what had happened to me as a child. That's a lot for someone to take on board. I got to the point where I just couldn't handle it. So that's a fairly
honest account. And this is so you were saying nineteen when the allegation, So you're talking here twenty do you want to just explain what was going through? Just were you overwhelmed with everything, that you lost your daughter, your daughter had gone the Philippines, you've got the issue with your father, you've been accused of rape. Lives. Yeah, pretty shit.
It's not great. I mean in that quote you read that, it's pretty much just how it was. I mean, for me, the most devastating consequence of this abuse carry has been losing my daughter and I still haven't seen her to this day from that point that she left in twenty nineteen. But just you lose your daughter, you're falsely accused of rape, you'll come into the realization that what actually happened to
you was not a relationship, it was an abuse. It was blatant abuse and a total stripping of your teenage years and childhood. And that's when I entered a mental health facility at twenty because I came up with the plan to end my life on a Friday, and I said, I'm going to have my final weekend and I was
going to do it on the Monday. I remember going out the Friday and the Saturday night just took was drinking, took anything I could, and got to the point on Sunday where I sort of had like this vision of my mother finding me and I couldn't deal with that. I couldn't I didn't want to put her through that. So there was actually on the same road that I lived on, there was a mental health clinic and I
checked myself in that Sunday evening before the Monday. I was going to carry through the plan that I had, well, yeah.
To get to that, to get to that point, to even contemplate that, yeah, what you're going through, it was just overwhelmed. And is that that low point was because you came to the realization that you had been abused. The whole way that you've been looking at your life was delusional up until that point, with the relationship and everything else, and it all just caught up with you. Is that? Yeah?
So my mother between that year of nineteen when they fled and twenty of where I got into the mental health ward, my mother, you know, really really urged me to go get getzo therapy. Yeah, and they really did assist me with coming to that realization that what happened was not a relationship, it was sexual abuse. And that's quite it's very confronting, and it just it drove me to that point where I didn't want to be here anymore.
And I needed more extensive help to assist me through that period, and it was the best decision I ever made going to that mental health facility, because it really gave me the tools to one articulate what I went through. It gave me the language to actually explain what I was going through, and hindsight's a beautiful thing.
Right, Yeah, but with hindsight, yeah exactly.
But it also gave me the tools to navigate the trauma if it ever came up again. So I was in that mental health ward for about two months.
And clearly, the way you're talking about it, it was beneficial for you.
Yeah, undoubtedly it was single handedly one of the best decisions I've ever made.
Yeah. Do you think if you went early on that you could have addressed the same situation or did you need that life experience in that age and that wisdom to deal with it at that point in time.
I just don't think it was a possibility for me, Gary to go before that point, because I was just under such coercion and just such manipulation and such a facade of what I was told, like a relationship was presented to me, and that's all I knew.
I understand what you're saying. I think you're basically saying, well, it was a relationship. We all have problems in relationships, and this was just so I was going through a relationship situation and it didn't you hadn't dawned on you. No, this was not a relationship. Not abuse.
Yeah, not at all, not until that point. I've seen those therapists for that year and then getting to a point where it really dawned on me and the weight of it all, especially losing my daughter like that, that really plagued me, and it just got it. It all came to a head.
That's another level that adds to the trauma is the daughter. And it's clear the way you speak about your daughter, the love that you've got for her and the impact that she's had on your life.
Undoubtedly.
So you've come out, two months, you spent getting help, you came out. But I would imagine, and I'm just saying this, I'm not sure you clarify it. I would imagine that doesn't mean you walk out in your heel and the problem's gone. You still live with it daily. You just have the tools to address exactly right.
Yeah, I mean you've articulated that perfectly. It's you don't come out and you know all is good. You come out and you're you're sort of continuing to navigate it, but you've just got the proper tools to assist you in navigating it. Because it's it's quite quite an ordeal that I have to say, it's the understatement of the year probably yeah, yeah, but it's quite an ideal that I've got to navigate and to have that assistance and to have that support, and to know that I can
always go back to that as well. I have that safety net behind me no matter what happens. That's a real privilege that I possess.
It's something that you have in your back pocket, isn't it. If you need to need to pull it out, you know there's a way to get help which will hopefully stop your spiraling or feeling like that you're on your own. So how did life look to you after you came out.
I remember coming out as twenty twenty and I just had this little bit little bit of hope. You know, there was a little bit of light at the end
of the tunnel. Wasn't perfect, but there was a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel, and you know, I was sort of coming to terms with the fact that I didn't really identify as a survivor or anything that's about that, But I just didn't really I was coming to terms with what happened and just trying to articulate my experiences and sort of navigate that.
And then in twenty twenty one, Grace Tame One Australia the year and I saw an individual who went through something similar on the national stage and that was a real poignant moment for me to see that. And then it's sort of just instilled in me that I think I have the tools and the wherewithal to advocate in my own way as well. I didn't know what that looked like at the time, but I knew that I
wanted to help people. And it wasn't until a couple of years until I actually publicly spoke about my story for the first time, until twenty twenty two. But throughout those throughout those few years, you know, just navigating it and just making sure I was okay before I could help other people.
Okay, it's interesting you mentioned the Grace and the type of things that you're doing here. I've got to say, Grace, when she was here in the studio was one of the most impressive people I've had the pleasure to interview.
I couldn't agree more.
I was scared she came in because she's pretty pretty intimidating, but had a lot of fun and the way she articulated things. And I think it's great that the stance that Grace took and the impact that's had on it helped you, and I think the type of stuff that you're doing now can help you as well.
Yeah, it not only helped me, helped countless individuals across this country that couldn't didn't have the courage to come forward. And that's not a bad thing upon them, but they just needed to see that. And what Grace did was she forged that path, you know, you know she ran so I could walk today with the advocacy that I that I'm able to do. You know, I stand on the shoulders of giants, of people like Grace and other
individuals who have come before me. So I really like to acknowledge that in opportunities like this, when when I get asked that question of what your story was like, because it really was upon your moment. For me, it changed my life to see her when that award and say the speech she did.
Yeah, it was powerful in so many ways. And I think with people like Grace speaking up about situations like that. I had the pleasure of working with Madeline West on the podcast series called Predatory where she came out about her child's sexual abuse. And again it's so powerful. And the work that Andrew Carpenter does, Shane Rattenberry, politician from Queensland,
all these people are out there making a difference. Russell Manser survivory piece, Yeah, sadly passed away, but he was carrying a lot of pain from the sexual abuse he suffered in institutions. And I've got to say that I had no idea the impact that it has on the criminal world, the amount of people that have been through sexual abuse and then have gone down the wrong path. And I'm talking you know, some serious hardcore crooks, bikis and that that carry the pain of being victims of
child sexual abuse. So for each and every one of you speaking out, I think it makes difference. And I see there's an honor having this platform to allow people like yourself come on and tell your stories.
Well, thank you very much, And I couldn't agree more individuals like this, They change the discourse of the of the national conversation, and it's important that we as society as a community, and you're leading by example in doing that, by honoring that and by understanding that these are actually courageous and brave things to share these stories.
You know, it's not about you know, that's right, and that's deeply personal, and you've got to expose a little bit of yourself and that makes you feel vulnerable coming out and talking about your emotions and what you went through. But no, I think each and every one of you are extremely courageous in the way that you approach it. Thank you in regards to your advocacy. Yes, let's talk about that. Let's get angry on the couple of things. The reference. Yeah, if you could explain that. Then we
spoke briefly. PEP who have listened to the podcast would have heard as raise the fact that people who have been charged of sexually abusing children shouldn't be given the luxury of having the reference as to good character character reference.
Yeah. Correct. So in May of twenty twenty three, so I came out with my story publicly for the first time. In twenty twenty two, and I sort of knew that I wanted to get involved with legislative reform because I knew it had a huge impact on people's lives, and I knew I wanted to get involved in that, but I didn't know where it sort of lied or sort of how I was going to navigate it. So I spent a year just sort of really building my connections
within the space. I'd attend you know, talks and seminars and all that, and sort of just build connections. And so when I knew I wanted to pursue legislative change, I would you have people that could support me through that. And this thing of good character references just always irked me as such, such an injustice. How can you be of character and commit that type of crime. It's ridiculous,
defeat the purpose. So when I spoke out as a survivor of child sexual abuse and wanted to change the laws surround pertaining to child sexual abuse, I said, surely there's no way that good character references are allowed for these types of criminals. There's surely no way. And I went through the legislation and was researching and researching, and lo and behold, I find this sort of strange quirk
in the law. And right now, what the current legislation is doing is it's prohibiting certain individuals, certain child sex offenders, from using good character references, but it's allowing a whole other class of individuals to do it. And the reason it's like that was because the current law was introduced by the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse.
So at the moment, the individuals that are prohibited from using good character references are the teachers, the scoutmasters, the religious leaders, anyone who has out with good standing in the community had and utilize that outward good standing to facilitate the crime. But gary there's a whole other class of individuals that are still allowed to use these good character references, the stepmothers, the neighbors, the grandparents, the older brothers,
the cousins, whatever it is. But our argument is that good standing, it's a cultivated and very calculated and deceitful good character that they cultivate that still allows them to
facilitate that crime. And right now, in courts, in the sentencing, so this is the back end of courts, So they've already gone through a trial, a judges found them more one hundred percent guilty of committing this crime, and then they come back in the sentencing and they're getting these discounts essentially discount character because of their good character, but they're getting discounts on their sentences for the very thing that allowed them to facilitate the crime and commit the crime.
So we're trying to extend the current legislation to encapsulate that category of offender as well, so no child sex offender can utilize a good character reference in the sense in procedure of court. And last year, in May of twenty twenty three, my campaign partner and I, Jared Grice, we started the hashtag your reference Ain't Relevant campaign and we started in our home state of New South Wales
because we live here. We got involved and in touch with the Attorney General here in New South Wales, Attorney General Michael Daily. He initiated a review. The first review, you know, it resulted in total polarity from advocates and
people who agreed with us and the legal community. So then we came back and Michael Daily, thank god he did, he started he instigated a second review with the New South Wales Sensing Council, which is currently underway, and he took it to the Standing Council of Attorney's General's meeting, which is the national meeting where all the ags of Attorney Generals from each jurisdiction come together to discuss national consistency when it comes to lawa form and that pretty
much put us, single handedly put us on the national map. And this was something that was a relative obscurity. No person knew that a pedophile could use a good character reference. Now it's a core tenant of the national conversation because of the work that we've done, and we've been able to meet with the Attorney generals from each state in jurisdiction and we're continuing to meet more.
Well, full credit to you for making that difference, and so people understand what we're dealing with. And you articulated very clearly pedophiles manipulate. That's how they build a trust. So to have someone coming in and saying, oh, well, look this person that was babysitting our children, they would always help. They'd come over and always offer to babysit the kids. That's not good character. That is basically put
in the fact sheet. If I'm a cop, I'm putting that in the fact sheet, that's showing the tendency to create that environment where they can pray on people. So little things like that make a difference. And like you chip away, and I know how hard it is to change legislation and the resistance that comes from the legal fraternity and everything it's enshrined. It's hard, but that's the
way we've always done it. Oh, you don't understand. And when you're trying to push changes in legislation, it's a battle. But full credit to you that you're getting it getting it to this stage.
Thank you very much. I appreciate it. And look, Jared and I and we have fantastic advocates that have come forward. You know, we've built this campaign and we understand that we have a responsibility to allow other abuse survivors to share their story. So we have a gentleman in the act by the names of Josh Burns. He shares his story.
He's a fantastic individual. In South Australia, we have a Alyssa James who shares her story incredibly, just so bravely, just purely in the pursuit of change and wanting to make a difference. And it's really, really really important that we that the courts incorporate and understanding of how this crime operates, because as you said, there, you know, this is a good character. It is a weapon amongst their
arsenal of deceit. It's part of the crime, and the courts have to understand that and encapsulate that in the sentence.
I like saying, an armed robber that's got a bellaclava. Yeah exactly. I think, let's it's.
So ludicrous and backwards and we just need to get on the front foot of it and change it. And that's that's where my advocacy lies. It's where the good character references.
That's okay, that's my thing. Keep pushing for it. The fact that you've connected with so many people that have got shared experiences, is that helpful for you?
Of course? And just to see you know, I have a friend named Anna and she's a survivor as well, and you know, I get asked all these questions, how do you how do you deal with you know, survivors that are constantly telling you their stories, like it must be hard to hear these stories all the time, and to an extent it is. And you know, there's a
thing called vicarious trauma. But my friend Anna, who's just amazing, she says, Harry, perception and mindset is so important, and you can view these stories as giving you vicarious trauma, or you can change that mindset and you can look at these survivors and you can think, my god, they're standing here on two feet after the adversity of they're faced, and there they're and they're pursuing these beautiful lives and doing these great things. That's vicarious resilience, and that's how
I choose to view it now. Vicario is resilience. So it's something to see a survivor speaking about their story and coming forward so bravely and courageously and sharing their lived experience purely because they want to ensure that it doesn't happen to another kid. That builds me up. So it's it's sort of selfish why I do what I do, but it really does build me up.
No, Well, you've every right to draw on those strengths. And I think when you refer to survivor a child sexual abuse, I think during this podcast, I've made reference to victims of child sexual abuse, and I've been pulled up on that before because the way you sity. You are a survivor, it's something to be proud. And the other people I've spoken to a survivors and they're warriors in their own way. They've overcome things that no child should have to go to. So it's something that you
should be proud of. What other things that you got going on in your life?
Yeah, So I do the advocacy. I go around the country. I have the privilege of being able to speak. I get to do incredible opporneies like this. I have a I think called a substack account, so I write articles and people are more than welcome to engage and subscribe to that.
How does that work and how can they access that?
Yeah, so it's a web page. It's called Harrison James Activism Unfiltered and it's just me being able to express my thought and sort of give my thought provoking commentary on situations. And yeah, they can go to substack dot it's Harry James dot com and sort of subscribe to be a part of those articles and read up on them. But also social media is a big thing for me
as well. And that's essentially how the campaign that your reference Ain't relevant campaign, That's how it's been able to get to the point that it's at now because of the social media and just sort of people are able to engage, and yeah, the impact of it, it's been
really remarkable. And never in a million years do I think you know the kid that was going through what he did at thirteen and fourteen fifteen years old would go on to be a voice and be quite a not blow smoke up my own ass, but quite quite a big voice.
A powerful, powerful voice. And I keep having to check myself that you're twenty four years old, But you did say during the podcast that you had your maturity went exponentially because of the speriences you've got. And I'm sitting here opposite a person that's speaking with so much wisdom that's way beyond twenty four years. So like, keep up and keep up the good work. Thank you your daughter, future hopes plans. Do you hope to at some stage
reconnect with your daughter? I know in one of the many articles I've read about you, you've said you have to check yourself time and time again not to get on the plane and go over there and see her, but again for the person that you are, the quality of the person that you are, you've said that you don't want to cause confusion in her life at such an early age where she's not ready to deal with it. So talk us through your hopes about the future there.
Yeah, of course, I hope more than anything that I'll be able to reunite with my daughter. It's such a it's imperative that I do, you know, because it's interesting. I've been stripped of a daughter, and you know I talk about that quite a bit. But also at the end of the day, Gary, that little girl's been stripped of a father as well, and she'll never get those years back because of what my stepmother decided to do. And it's the shame and the guilt. It falls squarely
at my stepmother's feet. And I hope that one day. You know, my daughter turns nine this year. It's there's never going to be a right time to have this conversation, but right now is the least right time. It's not appropriate for me, as you said. You know, I've said in articles before. You know, I fight the urge every single morning to get that first flight to the Philippines to pick her right back up and bring her home to safety where I know she's going to be safe
with me. But if I go over there that confusion that I'm going to impose upon her. There's already been one childhood that's been corrupted. I want to ensure as a father that I do everything in my power to impose the least amount of pain upon my daughter this with this situation that neither her or I ask for. So I really hope that there's a day where, you know, she'll and if she's anything like her father, she'll ask questions and she'll be curious and want to find out.
And I not only do I hope, but I know that there will be a day where we reunite because I'm going to ensure that it happens because it's really important to me that I'm able to establish a connection with her, and I hope that's reciprocated on her. And you know, I don't know what she's been told or or will be told in the in the period of time that I don't see her, But all I can hope is that she she and I can come can reunite and come together with an understanding of what's happened
and an empathy. And I just hope that I can educate her on that and assist her through through her own trauma that she's inevitably going to face. By coming to terms with this, It's going to be very traumatic for that girl, and I recognize that, and as a father and someone who has been through pain myself, I want to be able to help her navigate that. And I hope that day comes.
Well, just the way that you've described that. I think, hang on to a recording of what you just said in the last five minutes and send that to your daughter at the right stage, and she'll know how much she is loved and how special a father is. So I think you'll get that message across. And there's something about you, there's that X factor that I think, yeah, things will work out. And I want to say this
in wrapping up. I'm just it's people like you that inspire me, like people that have experienced situations and that just come through the resilience and the way that you've come through and the balance view that you've got on what's happened and the way that you accepted. I think anyone that listens to your story will be inspired, shocked by what you've been through, but also inspired and educated.
So the work that you're doing. Get out there to as many people and speak to as many people as you can, because I think you've got a really powerful message that is making a difference.
Thank you, Garry. That means the world. And just to have the opportunity to come on here and share that message, it means the world. And you're doing phenomenal work by allowing individuals like me to come on here and share those stories. So again, just a debt of gratitude to thank you so much.
It's an honor.
All the best, Thank you, cheers.
I know the world's a good place when you have someone like Harrison James advocating for survivors as child's sexual abuse. What he went through was horrendous, But the way he's come through and the way he articulates his own experience and the help that he's trying to provide others by talking about this hideous crime, I think is inspirational. I really enjoyed sitting down having to chat with him, and I just found him a fascinating person and what a great outlook he has on life.
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