Surviving a car bomb assassination: Jay Malkoun Pt.1

The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side of life the average persons never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, said, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

Thanks for having me.

Well, it's good to sit down and have a chat with you. I knew about you when I was doing what I was doing in the Cops, and I got to say, ten years ago, I didn't think you and I would be seeing a room and recording a conversation.

Changed.

It has has changed, But it is good to see you. And I've read your book, and I've got to say, there's a lot of books I read before people come on that you book The Consultant, and I found it really fascinating.

Thank you.

The life that you've lived, it's been a colorful life.

It's been good.

Yeah, and you're still here in one piece, one piece. What do you put that down to duck and weave? Yeah, good, good advice?

Your environment?

Do you reckon it was in your DNA upbringing or whatever what steered you to the life that you've lived. Looking back, what was it about you? Was it in your personality or was it just circumstances.

I think it's just my need for more. I just wanted more. I'm prepared to do whatever it takes to get more. Up to a degree, we have a moral compass, you know, I'd probably take a bit more recent the average and prepared to commit a bit more of myself, maybe sacrifice a bit, but yeah, I wanted more.

So a risk taker, and you put the effort in that. It certainly came across in your book because there's, yeah, there's a crime side, but there's a business side. And you seem to be driven in every aspect of your life. And they're also family training. You're just a driven type of guy.

Yeah. Well, you know, we grew up in an environment where we weren't lazy, and we did whatever we need to do to get ahead. You know, we thought for what we had and then we thought to keep it. That wasn't just me, that was the community. And if you didn't apply that attitude, you got left behind and probably became a victim. So, I mean, I'm not your negro.

Well, we're going to We're going to find out a lot about your life. And I'm interested in the type of person you are, and I think our listeners are going to find it fascinating. Yeah, the world that you played in was a pretty heavy world. And I just want to read next tracked out from your book, and this was twenty nineteen where you're a victim of a car bombing. Yeah, I got to say, you're the first person we've had on I catch killers that survived the

They went around.

Okay, this is an ext track from your book, and I just want people to digest what I'm saying here and then we'll delve into Jay's life a little bit more. But Jesus, oh, okay, well it's a podcast. Jay has just shown me an actual video, it must have been captured on CCTV or something of the car explaining you walked out of that. Yeah, yeah, no, it just looks like a a dead set circus trick how you walked out of that. But I might laugh about it, but

It didn't hurt, actually, be are Yeah, yeah, you're pumped.

Yeah you said that, and yeah, and I want to delve when we will later in the podcast delve into the actual bombing. But you also after the bombs got off, your instinct was, well, I'm a target sitting here if someone's going to try and finish me off. Hence why you were trying to crawl out of the car.

Yeah, no good sitting in the car mate.

Well that's your survival instant kicking in, because a lot of people might have just laid there and thought, okay, this is it and except the inevitable. But do you not in your makeup?

No chance?

Okay, all right, let's talk about your life growing up, family, where you grew up, and who you were a young fellow.

Housing commissioned reservoir. Everybody was struggled. For us. A big day out was paying footy, I'll go and across to the creek and riding a horse, which was we were consumed by normal activities. We grew up relatively normal. Now that these kids they don't get to experience too much or hiding behind the devices.

Yeah, I understand where you're coming from there, Jay. Some of the best adventures I've had was you walk out the houses a ten year old and I'll see you when it gets dark. Get up to all sorts of shit. That was with your mates.

Yeah, with us, we'd go to the drivings on our horses. It was normal and it had a big holding the gate in the fence. Excuse me, now, look because of the I grew up in a very which which area was this in Melbourne? It was? It was a It was a housing community area, so everybody struggled and there was a lot of foreigners, so you know everybody. Everybody

What's your background? Lebanese parents came over from Leven.

My father came over first, and then he's a welder. That was back in the sixties when they were promoting for laborers to come to the country to help build the country, and then he nine months later he afforded the tickets for the rest of us, bought us a ticket, and we all came over on a ship, mum and five kids.

When you think about it like that, it's pretty gutsy, isn't right.

You can't even imagine. My mom had to catch a boat from Lebanon to Egypt, and a train from the port of Egypt to another port, and then we waited for four days for our tickets to be cleared. They weren't clear, so the ship took off without as weren't allowed on board. So then you've got a taxi for seven hours to meet the ship pass the Nile, and then we got on a small dingy boat and we

I read I read that in your book when you weren't a loud on the boat, and then your mum's come up with that idea, and I thought, there's no way she could have pulled that off, But she did.

She pulled there. There was no stopping her.

Well, that says a lot, doesn't it.

It's a different breed back then our parents, your parents, no doubt, it's just tougher that we didn't accept to know if there was a hurdle, we'd either go over it or go around it. We just didn't stop.

I think comes with that resilience too, resilient. People throw their hands up now if it's hit a hurdle, but it was a more resilient world.

They throw the hands up and say, did a mental health plan? What the fuck's that? Man?

I'm hearing you and I'm not talking everyone. People do suffer it, but absolutely the card gets played quite often. What about brothers and sisters? And where did you fit in?

I was the youngest of four boys and the second youngest child. My mother had a six child in Australia, my younger sister, and I was the one who used to get beatn up as a child by the other brothers. All the time. It's run all the errands to get the shick academy, so you know, I'll get it up. Used to fighting or getting beaten at least or running.

It's funny at the time, you don't realize the benefits that's going to create for you in life.

Absolutely, mate. That bills resilience, you know, the endurancy you get from other people's aggression, and how to deal with it, how to monitor a situation, how to avoid a situation, understanding your environment. I've got with three very aggressive boys. I was the smallest and the victim.

That carries you like you've burned in some very violent environments inside prison, in outlaw, motorcycle gangs. That type of skill set that you would have picked up as a young fellow. How did the fuse? How know when to strike? If you've got to strike? It must have come in handy later on in light.

It came and had you in jail. Jail is very volatile. It goes off at any second, and you can if you know how to read the play, you can read the play always. You can just you could just see by the movements. A couple of guys gathering in the corner, whispering hands under the shirt. You know they're hiding a shoe, just acting a bit strange looking at someone you know he's only about to cop it. You know, you pick

I remember reading that portion in your book, and it was very much Yeah, I understood what you're saying there. You just got to You've got to have your eyes open to what's going on. If you walk through there with ignorant bliss, you're going to get walk in on something or or something's going to happen to you.

Even eating, even eating in the in the hall, if you're not sitting with your back inst the wall, a big chance you're going to get a ship in the back of your neck as someone walks past. Just what we keep walking violently happens all the time.

Yeah, I'm getting a sense of your childhood and i'd say you look back with that with fond memories as you as you left school. What were you aiming to do?

You know, take over the world? Just kidding. Look, I was very fortunate because I'm not educated, and you know, through fighting martial arts and being in Hong Kong, I fell into a bit of drugs and then I made a little bit of money and I met some people throughout my life that helped me along the way. So at a very early age. I was very ambitious and I did what I could with you my capacity to grow some wealth. Then, you know, we might after a couple of years of fucking around with the triads, so

You had. I'm not sure if the mining boom had hit there, but you had a lot of disposable income at times during during Perth when the mines were going off.

The Perth has always been relatively wealthy and they're good drinkers. So this wasn't a big club, so it wasn't hard to like two hundred and fifty people capacity.

I find that interesting too. You've got that side of your life where you've crossed the line in the law, but you've also got that entrepreneur in you that business. Okay, so the clubs aren't open at this time, or we're going to open the club and that's going to bring the people in.

Oh yeah, we killed it. We did really really well. We did things like on Monday, we introduced Monday Madness, where we'd employ seven or eight DJs from around the town and we'd give them their own cards, and anyone that they brought in we'd pay for their fifteen minute set and then paying for every person they brought in and we'd give them a drink card. The place was busy than a Saturday.

That's just tapping in the people like it's Monday, there's nothing.

Going on, and then a couple hundred the one that to come out and never drink.

Where did you get that from?

Did you?

Because it's not a formal education, is it.

I started bouncing just when I turned eighteen, so I was working in nightclubs from eighteen to twenty twenty one until I moved to Perth.

You mentioned your martial arts. What was your martial arts journey where that I started?

I started with Bruce Lee at the age of five.

Yeah, as we all did you look at that and yeah.

And started on take one day Tuesdays and Thursdays in colum with seafool Henry or instractor Henry. And we did that for until I was like sixteen fifteen. That I got I fell into the Lacey brothers. They were in Melbourne looking to open an academy and I was introduced to them and we started training and we trained six days a week in the park because they didn't have their own facility and they were training me to fight overseas.

That took you over the Hong Kong with the different things, totally.

Yeah, A couple of times stayed with my grandmaster. Okay an experience.

Yeah, I founded in your book the soule that you're doing. I trained under some of those people myself and yeah, they're pretty pretty committed, aren't They very committed life, So that got you to working the door in clubs. You're keeping an eye on it, thinking, well, you know, working the doors pretty fun, but I don't want to be doing this for the rest of my life. Is that the type of attitude that.

Yeah, I could have done it forever because I loved it as I love fighting. But I found money, so I bought a club, and then you know, we managed to club ourselves and then we discovered prison.

Okay, well we're going to get to get to the prison story. But how old were you when you had a club?

Twenty two?

Okay, getting a sense of you, twenty two, you've got a club, you're the man. You would have been enjoying yourself, but I killed it. Tell us about life sotile there because most people at that age wouldn't be able to enjoy lifestyle like that.

Well there was. I had a few friends out from Melbourne as well. They always came over and stay, so we had a penhouse. We had another house at the night clubs, had two clubs.

Actually bought another one which part of Perth.

Rockenham and north Bridge. Okay, and life is great mate beaches during the day clubs. During the evening we all trained. We weren't really drinkers, or we didn't didn't take drugs. We just just enjoyed life, trained beach my life and ate.

Well, when the drugs started coming into it, what was your You look back and there You've got to quote here about heroin that you said. I'm not the kind of person who carries around a lot of regrets, but I regret heroin. It's not even that I regret the ten years I spent in jail cells after I was pinched. I regret the damage that heroin that I moved would have done to the community. The age of twenty two, I didn't appreciate the consequences of my actions.

Yeah, that's true. Actually, just before I was pinched, started dating and Chip, probably six months earlier, and I was your chick, who I didn't know at the time it was on heroin, but she was on it recreationally right towards towards the end. Actually, I discovered that she was and I did my best to remove out of that environment. Then when I was once I was incarcerated, she ran a muck and I was in love with her. So that's how I felt the consequences of it. You saw that affected me.

Personally, Okay, that the first hand account. You saw the damage that it could do did.

To her, to a family. To me personally, you know, I felt the pain. So then you know when you reflect back on that, I mean, I'm not a selfish person, so I look at mine my own grief and assume that other people had similar grief and the ongoing negative impact did have on the community. I didn't get it. In court, the prosecutor and the judgement, they fucking hated me. I think, what's all the fuss about.

What you guys? Because your brother who went down for it too, and you you painted those major league criminals in the media. What do you reckon that was about?

Ah Man? That was when the NCAA was I mean not taking any neat credit away from them, because we were significant for that era, but that was when the NCAA first was formed, and you know, they were given unlimited powers. They were pulling guys out of prison for information, to set people up, and all they had achieved up until that point. I think they were around for a couple of years. They got abe Cefron for six months tax evasion. That's all they've got. They really didn't I

And you know they milked it Middle East and guys. And there were some guns that recovered.

There are a lot of guns too, in particular that were silence machine guns, really good weapons. So I mean, it really did paint a good picture. And look from their special perfect perception, they probably thought that they had the big guys. Unfortunately we weren't so big.

In a reverse sort of why it worked in your favor when you did go inside, because you had a reputation that had some benefits on the inside because of the way you were portrayed. Absolutely, tell me about your downfall. Did you know what was coming, had you been locked up, had you been given like warning signs beforehand, like we're pushing it too hard? Or did it just hit you all at once when the cops caught you.

Oh no, no, I was done with it. I was done way before I went to Perth. I actually, I'm not even joking. I did it a few times. It wasn't like now it's consistent. Every now and then some would pop up and they'd call me, do you want it? Yes or no. I'd offer it yes or no. So then I was done with that. So I had no clue that I was going to be in trouble with the law. So as I was concerned, I did it. I did not got away with it. That's the end

Actually, so if you got got the shipment, you were done. If they didn't grab you with the drugs in you.

I had once scenario, and we knew we have been followed the police. We watched them the hiding behind cars. I thought I could caught redhanders. So what I did was I said my leveos walking briskly down Logan Street. The men and the other principal met around the corner. I was on a bike and I fucked off.

With it and the cops went for the.

I got away, dropped it off, went home with the bed. I got a both with it, actually I did. But my point was I didn't realize the thing that he can get some allance and recordings and witnesses, and he did that because I got back a bit.

I've often we're creative in that. In that way, I've often wondered people that have made their money through crime or whatever the start out, but then the more it's like, that's the analogy of a boxer. A boxer that when they've got all the luxuries of life, they're not as hungry as they were on the street. When you're in that world, did you think, am I taking two many risks now with it? Like I want to go I want to go legit. So I've got the money, I've

Absolutely's why That's why I moved straight.

I thought I got too hot point.

Made a bit of money, not a lot of money, by the way, just enough to give myself a leg up.

And I thought, you know, you don't believe those streets. You don't believe those street values. When the law enforcement pulled up a billon dollars worth of drugs were recovered, that type of stuff.

They got I think three pounds it was one point six killers, a heairline. Okay, what was worth back then? Six and eighty?

Tell us what your life was on the day that you got locked up. What were you in a relationship?

I was in the relationship. I was about to get out of my forty four otion racer, had the boys waiting for me. It was a beautiful sunny day. We'll love a life trained ready that morning, had breakfast, feeling good, looking good, ready to take on another day. Amazing, this is the morning. By the afternoon, I'm living in the cell. My shoe was my pillow.

How did you react to that?

That was all good, not a problem.

Yeah, I Look, I've spoken to a lot of people that have in and out of the jar and all that. I've got to say, you are one of the most positive people about it, but not for everyone. You said your brother was doing it tougher in prison, just like he needed his freedom. You you accept that. What was it about you that you could just is that the price I've got to pay for? No? I did.

Look, I think with me through the martial arts and my training and my mindset, and you know, fearless, like stupidly fearless. You know, it was just another for me. It was not going to be another experience. I just got to get on with it. Mean you can't. You don't ever trying to fuck it feel sorry for yourself. There's mayhem all around you. Doesn't matter how big a guy is. If you can hold a shive and you're quick enough, you can't have a fucking problem. Mate. So

Okay, But there seems to be like an acceptance that you've gone, Okay, this is my lot in life.

Okay, this is me. Its ten. Let's get on with it. I mean I did obviously that wasn't by the time I was sentenced two years it explired. So we're down to eight. I still had an appeal. That's twelve months away. Down to seven, had another appeal, down to six, had another appeal down to five. On the downhill run, Let's get on with.

It, okay, So you've accept that that way started off at the team.

Some people to rationalize their sentences, so they get a well call it a nine new sentence. They plan and escape, so they say, okay, I need to get two years under my belt to get to a medium maximum security. Another two to get to a midium, but then I'm off. So they think they're only doing two or four years. Then when they get to that four years, yeah, they trot the towel then to get on with it. So it's just psychological.

Was it easier for you to do your time? Accepting? Okay, this is where I'm at without fighting it internally.

I never I just accepted it. So I mean you're still living, right, it's still having a laugh, you know, it's still really you sleep out hours eight hours a day and you work eight hours day. I'm missing eight hours a day effectively. I can guarantee you a couple of those would have been in the gym and at least one or two watching TV. So I mean it's a sacrifice. It is a sacrifice. You're missing all that affection and emotional enjoyment with other women whatever, if that's

Yeah okay, so you because you said that when we were chatting before the podcast, when we were talking the other day. You said that I used it to my advantage, absolutely and that, but there must have been some downtimes in there.

I think there's a lot of violence, but that just kept you at the adrenaline pumped. So the more violence that you experienced, you know there was a distraction as well.

Did you get addicted to that in a strange sort of weight?

I wasn't so much on edge because I was one of the alphas, but yeah, I supposed to a degree. I mean definitely, you don't get time to just relax. From the time that door opens to the time it shuts, you're on your toes. I just don't know where it's going to come from and who's going to have a crack, And there's plenty that are willing.

Yeah, but as you said, it doesn't have to be the big bloke. It can be the stranger, little dude in the in the corner that's got the ship.

But I know one of the most hectic, dangerous killers in the country. It was probably sixty kilos. But they would catch your fucking head off in front of your wife, then do.

Her that they make the dangerous you had. You're in there with your brother you're laid to spend time with your brother, or did they separate you.

They tried to separate us a couple of times, but they didn't add well for them. They couldn't separate us, so we spent it all together. They separated it just look we bashed screws. We did it in court. We had problems with him in the prison. We've been wrong with it in prison. We weren't to be fucked around with it. Especially my brother. He's a psychopath, like he's not less, not an actual psychopath, but he's a nut job.

He doesn't doesn't well, he doesn't back down when you're at your trial or you're hearing where he builded the corrective services officer.

Or that was my fault. I shouldn't have told him.

That's when you wanted to talk to your mum or something.

So they during the case and we stopped the first time, and we're walking past my parents, and of course they're going to stop and console its see how you're okay, mom? All good? You don't need to be you go home. This fucking dog put his and I was my brother was between him and me. He put his arm around and gave me a little shove and said kept going, which obviously I didn't. But I found that humiliating and embarrassing in front of my mum. So I was gonna

I would have expected that was all punch on with the Copps that were there and surprising everyone's scared.

I mean, look, we weren't shy. You're looking at a sixty year old man. Now, I was twenty four back then. You know all I did was fight.

Okay, So you're a complex character, an interesting character, and I do. And I mentioned in the start with your book, I was trying to sell what we do on the podcast and talk about redemption, and you checked me and said, this is not a redemption story. And I accept that this is your story and you live by your moral code. So I'm finding it interesting having a chat with you. Now.

We were both incarcerated for five years ago, both of us on the end of our sentences, and I always gravitated to people that were smarter or better than me, but I could get something out of, like some sort of stimulation. And he was the smartest bloke in the system, literally the smartest, so I always I used to annoy him, but he liked me. Fortunately, So towards the end of the sentence, they were closing pantries down. So we had like two hundred prisoners in D Division and we were

The fact that then I read his book I think when it first came out, so years and years ago, and it really resonated with me that, Okay, you can have a violent man, but there was a philosophy behind what he was doing, and you know, we all fuck up, but you get on with life and resilience and all that. So yeah, I just found it impressive. So I can imagine and I've seen him, seen him talk, and I can imagine it would have been a good influence on

I haven't noticed it. I know a room does pay attention, though, I mean your command attention. You mean you can do it. It's just a personality, and sometimes your personality is reflected by your physical personality. You know, some some men are big but you just don't notice. Other men are medium sized, but they have a presence about them. I guess I have a little presence.

And energy that comes out. Yeah, okay, accept that charming can be. I get the sense that people like you can turn turn the charm on.

Yeah I don't. I don't know anyone that doesn't like me, and if I find out, I'm going to do my best to get them to turn them. Talk about this anger, bro.

Yeah okay, I like it. Well you've wrecked it. For the next one. Confident. This is why Greg describes it. You confident in the way of a man who knows how the fight will and doesn't mind doing it. I get that there is something and you would have seen it in prison. I saw it on the streets and stuff as a cop. There's a calmness that comes with someone that can look after themselves and doesn't have to have to put it out there.

To lose your temper. Yeah, you need to be aggressive, get on with it.

Because you were saying you were seen the blokes. I've seen him in life, but I've also seen it when I was in the cops. There's a lot of bravado there, but it's almost fear like they've pumped themselves up big.

So yeah, there's a lot of that that you're to watch out for. The salent ones, quiet ones that enjoy it. But I mean there's also loud crazies. They can do the job, so let's not discount them. Yeah.

Yeah, well I know that I reckon one of the most chilling responses to someone if they want to fight you, I love fighting. They don't know where they go from there, Okay. A diplomat preferring to compromise over confrontation. Now this steered a lot of your career, the consultancy that we'll talk about. But talk us through that. What Greg saw about you being the diplomat, Well.

Look, often with situations where you're in the middle, you can go either way. You can just hurt somebody and resolve it well, you can make a little sacrifice, a bit of give and take and resolve with diplomatically. It doesn't have to come down to violence of aggression. If you can work out another way, it's always the best in my view, it's always the best option.

I agree. I agree with that, but I think you've got to give if we're arguing, if I'm still going at you, if I give a little bit to you or don't embarrass you in front of someone, it's easy to back down. I use the example, and I think I've used it before on the podcast. Very basic example. As a cop early days in uniform, you go into a pub. You've been called there because someone won't leave

I didn't have that approach.

What the approach did you have it?

I'm doing it totally different thing in the pubs and would square off straight away, have my hands in front of me, dude, as soon as they finished straight on the chin? Mate, Yeah, we drag them out.

We can't do that.

We didn't give them. We didn't give them the opportunity to throw one.

Did they ever get you in trouble?

No, it's legal, man. We had three coppers walked through my club I was working at, had three clubs in it. Three off duty police officers walked past my brother and made some remarks or a day ago, and he came around because we had a tunnel through to me and said, these fucking coppers and they happened to walking across the street, so we attacked them, kicked the ship out of them. One was trying to call under a car to get away. My brother's dragging that boy's leg, jumped on the bottom

This is what the eighties over in perform Melbourne.

Yeah nothing you now you used to tell someone the fun out to take a photo and call the police.

Well it's a different world now. You wouldn't get away of that now.

But actually off the PlayStation was up the right in Buzswick. Look, I've heard about it.

Nothing I've seen I've seen off Judy cops. I've seen them in the clubs and that they can be pains in the arts, not all of them, like we're just I don't want to brand it. But yeah, I understand what you're saying.

There's all fun games back then, I mean, no one really got seriously hurt, you know, not really bad, just took their lumps. Yeah, you just take it on the gin. I got smashed a few times. Just take it on the gin, get up and dust up and keep going. It's like, just like, what's that happens on the foot field? Stays on the footy field?

Used to It doesn't any It doesn't anymore.

At fucking crowdbabies, the generation of crwdbabies. Fat good luck if we go to war.

I said that the introduction, we're going to get it real, and we're getting it real from you. So I appreciate that. I want to hear. This is getting an insight in your thinking. I like it. Now you've been described as a leader, a man that hard men will follow in the battle and more impressively into peace. So play on that. So leader that Okay, we'll back you up. But also no, we're not going to fight here. Is that how you see your lived your life?

But when I lead, I led from the front of the back. So I wouldn't ask anyone to do anything that I won't personally do. In fact, I probably do it myself, and all my people knew that. So I would never compromise anyone else's safety. I always was careful to look after people, not to get it in trouble. You know, that was respected and appreciated. So I'm a sensible leader, Okay.

Not led by ego. Feeding your own Again.

Even in the boy club, I don't know, we'll get you in trouble.

You made a point there, and I'm interested in this because, yeah, we talk management leadership, but if we talk in the world that you lived in, you wouldn't have anyone do anything that you wouldn't do yourself. I've had a lot of people over the years and without naming names, clubs or whatever, get the shits that, yeah, we're taking the risks and people are reaping the rewards. That's not the

Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Well they can running back on the outside getting jail and they fucking crumble. I've seen it. But look also people succumb to the system, they become as setutionalized and they become dependent upon the system. So with my brother and I, we Maine tander independens and independence in their individuality. We wouldn't even wear their fucking clothes. Mate, it seemed like four food like, so we had our own fire pants. The screws bought him

So you're eating healthy in there.

We cooked our own food, jail food shit, and we had a microabe in ourselves. We took the screws. We did everything to just run our own race. There was no gray, It's black and white. We hated them and expressed it daily, and they hated us and expressed it daily. And then we got almost routing the system and we wrote it really well and we I mean, this is for us. ChIL wasn't difficult for us because we did our own jail.

So when yeah, the line between the blue and the grain, that was definitely the case for you and your brother, No question. They're doing prison a little bit differently. Interested why we're talking on that subject now Mcquarie Correctional Center in New South wal they're up in Wellington. They're trying a new style where they're breaking down it's not so much the division maximum security prison. People going in, they're

Or do you hate that?

You hate it?

I would hate that, Bro. I did most of my jailing Petridge, the old bluestone Petridge. I used to have a you know, the bay Maries. Yeah, the heater. That was my little heater. Weigh it up somehow. The little fan had my fridge in my ice box, a little bluestone cell. Kate. There was a fucking cage and it was jail, and you did jail, Bro. This bullshit they're hanging Daniel and Karats in front of you. Fuck all that shit. We've got nothing, we wanted nothing.

Okay, I appreciate you're a hard ass, except that. Can you see the benefits the benefits for the community if they go If they go in there like you come out, you've kept your moral compass. But jail fucks people up? Can you see out there? Not talking you individually, I'm talking generally. If people come in and go out better people, there has to be a benefit. Surely you see that.

Why is it making them better?

Well? They can adapt to society. They're not bridging up every time they walk down the street and end up back inside.

Are you talking about it? You're talking about the fucking short terms. The corporates, the pedophiles, the rapists. There the only comes to get the fucking benefits. The hard criminals don't get that ship.

Well, I can say that I've seen it and they do. And these are some lifers in this. They're trying it out. That it's a new system. I went inside last year and they're trying it out. So that's what I'm asking you. I understand.

I understand that, I understand twenty five. In the time you live with twenty five blokes, I'll kill one of them.

Well, that's exactly what I thought would happen there. That's why Corrective Services invited me in to have a look. And I'm thinking this is going to be mayhem.

Were they independent selves or no?

No living I'm telling you they're holding hands. No, they weren't holding relationship. They weren't holding hands and singing Kumbai h. There were some hard asses in there, and people I know. I know their background, I know who they are, and the way they carry themselves, carry themselves that you drop them in any prison and they're hard asses. They're going, it's better we're coming out. I'm changing, okay.

So obviously they would know they're experiencing. I never experienced that. I got nothing and it worked for me.

Yeah, yeah, No, it's interesting getting your getting your take on it. And I know the old school view is fuck that, why would we buy into that? But it seems to be working.

Was horrible, and that's why don't want to give it.

Okay, jail, okay.

So when there's opportunities, I think there's a benefit here, but the downside's too severe. Thank you, but no, thank you.

I can understand an argument.

I'm not saying un punished counts harder because it'll determ. But for me, it just works for me.

The punishment is I would suggest as well, not just surviving in the old traditional jails like you're talking about, but also you're taking away from your family and yeah you haven't got that freedom. Yeah, that has to that has to hit. But you were fortunate you got to hang out with Yeah, the brother, your brother and the Shanna Am that was fortunate. Well maybe maybe not.

I was lucky in the cell with informost of my jail. I had to let him win chess. Otherwise you'll let me go to bed.

Just get going and going.

He's not stopping until he wins the game, so the third a fourth game.

I let him win, all right, honest? Now honest, And this is how it's been described, with the kind of honesty that people call ruthless. I can see that in you. I think he's now nailed. You're there. You don't what you say is what you think.

Yeah, we don't pull any punches. I mean trying not to be offensive, but you know, I try and be you know, like, we'll got something to say, I'll say it.

Okay, I'm saying that in you also, good son, good father, good friends. How important do you place place? Family?

It's priority? That was back in the big club for me, it was a family, work, then bike, you know, so we didn't we didn't across those terms. So a lot of people's bike first, everything our secondary, and their family is first. Bro, That's how we grew up. I love my family and they love me. It's amazing.

Well you got to love the family. Yeah, okay, you get out of prison. What did you hope to do with your life when you got out?

I had no doubt about my capacity. I didn't have any specific plans. I had materialized all different scenarios prior to getting out all these little success stories in my head. And you know it, when I got out of prison, I was so confident and so fit and so much smarter and well read that I felt like I was twelve foot tall. And what I noticed is that even though I was away for ten years, I thought nothing

What years was this? What you to?

Ninety seven?

Okay?

Yeah, so I mean not everybody, but the people that I knew, I just felt had and progressed. And even though I felt even though I'd been incarcerated, I'd achieved so much more. So, you know, my confidence was through the roof, and you know, I accomplished a lot, very very quickly.

So okay, so that's interesting. You say you're come out, you feel twelve foot tall, you're fit, obviously, you've been training in there, you're well read, and you're walking out. Well, it hasn't broken me here, I am ready to take on the world. Is that the type of lay opened the gate you walk out?

What I got picked up on my girl?

How did you get a girl or did you the girl stay by you?

What's and for a few girls over the years. Yeah, yeah, he just made.

Them well, just like the bad boy.

Yeah, strippers and shit, yeah, I was a stripper and she picked me up and off we went went home. It was great, honestly, like within a couple of days, it's been like I've never left.

You're resilient, aren't you. Like a lot of people would freaks them out. They come out the freedom and really yeah.

Yeah, you know what they do. The systems designed to like when you're doing a long sentence, so for a court six years. Yeah, so you do your third maximum, third medium minimum, and the last third you have you're integrated into society. They give you the day release and start with four hours eight hours and progresses to twenty four so when by the time you get out of the system, you know you're you re integrated a little bit. We were special. So when we got to our last third,

Do you think that might have had something to do with your belting people?

And pretty much yeah, they said you can have me in the last twelve months. We got to our last five months and they tell us the fuck off. The last seven months. We went to a privately run prison and then we were eligible for leaves.

Did you get out the same time as your brother?

I got out two weeks later, but he wrote to the parole board and said he couldn't have good consciousness leave me behind. It would have a negative impact on our parents, and could he please stay a bit longer.

How did they react today, Well, they knew.

What we were like. You couldn't separate us. They tried to separate us a few times. We just turned it on like one jar. We turned it right on, bro.

So that was that when when you say turned it on, we're not mucking around here. It's not just your winging burned.

To the ground, right, We had fucking SAgs and they shit happened and they joined us back together again. We used to meet back in Pantridge when they separated us.

If that mind me saying you would have been a pain in the ass, you two not really.

We made our own business, bro, We didn't you with anyone. But just don't fuck around with us, that's all. Don't try and separate us aage nonsense just because some can't got iron barred. That happens so they separated. They thought that shang up my brother from Castlemaine, little dog jail ladies. And while I was locked into a certain section that you couldn't get through, but I got through. I got straight out of there and went in front of the

Well, okay, well we want to hear hear it real. We're getting it, getting it real. How are you going to get back on your feet when you got out? You got to earn a dollar or you've got to do something. Where did you think you were going to head to?

My parents? My family gave me, gave us a bit of money, mak to just give a kick a lot nothing. But then I got contacted by a company that that locate dormant companies that have assets and wealth in them.

Talk us through that.

Yes, I had one hundred andy grants sat in the company that everyone forgot about.

You got that, you got the money. Yeah, so the first gift from give from heaven.

So that was my kickstart.

Okay, well look we might take a break here, Jay, but I think people are getting the saints and that's what I hope to get and with this chat, getting the sense of the type of person you are. When we come back in for part two, we're going to talk about your next move into the world of O mcg. We're going to talk about the type of negotiations you do. I even want to talk about your treasure hunt looking