The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome to another episode of Eye Catch Killers. Today we're going to talk to two forms of policemen who are victims of a terrorist attack that nearly claimed their lives
and resulted in the terrorists being shot and killed. These two officers have not spoken publicly in detail about this incident for a variety of reasons, but today they've agreed to come on Eye Catch Killers and share their story. The attack occurred ten years ago. Both officers were working as counter terrorist detectives when they are attacked and stabbed by an eighteen year old Newman hater who they were speaking with about concerns he has been radicalized by the
Islamic State. As you could imagine, an incident like that has a profound impact on those involved. What people sometimes don't realize is behind the tough exterior, police are just human. They feel pain and have emotions like everyone else. Taking someone's life, even someone who is trying to kill you, comes at the cost. Today we're in the Melbourne studio talking to an Australian federal police officer, Matt and a
former Victorian police officer called Nile. We're going to find out who they are, talk about the incident in detail, how it changed their lives, and a lot of other things about policing and terrorism. And now upfront, I'd like to thank Nile and Matter for coming on I Catch Killers and sharing their story because it can't be easy talking about what they went through. Welcome to I Catch Killers. I've got two guests in the studio today, so firstly, let me welcome Mart Matt.
Hey, Gary, thanks for having us.
Matt, you're a Australian Federal Police officer. Yes, and we've also got them. We can't forget Nile here. Nile you're a former Victorian Police officer. Yeah, that's rightery Well, i'd just like to thank both of you for coming into the studio. In the introduction, I talked about an incident that brought you guys very close together. It was a terrorist attack in which you were both injured and also resolved in the person who injured You've been shot, shot
and killed. Pretty heavy, heavy topic, and we're going to discuss that in detail. But how come? And I just wanted to put this out because the public listening, well, why have we got an AFP dude here and a Victorian cop? Why were you working together? How did that come about?
So the Joint counter Terrorism Team prize as the local police force, so in this case Victoria Police, the Australian Federal Police and then also the security security agencies and the Joint counter Terrorism Team operates in all our states and territories across Australia. So this was Victoria Police detectives combined with federal agents and the intelligence services. That's how we came to be working together in twenty fourteen.
Are you're happy to be working with him?
Yeah?
Well, funny you should say that I started the JCTT on the first of September in twenty fourteen, and I'd been there a day or two and Nile came up to me, and as we know, Victorians are very parochial around the AFL, and he asked me what my footy team was and I looked at him and said Paramatta and he looked at me in disgust and walked off, and yeah, and saying that heels had me again overly.
Flash last year to be bragging about.
It, but stand by them. But he yes.
So that was our introduction, and then I think I was there a couple more weeks and then we got thrust.
The incident together.
It's funny and it's not unique to policing, but I think it's something that we all understand. How you look when you're at tasked with a new investigation or a new team or a new role. You look closely at the person you're going to be working with because you know you're going to get to know that person very well. You're going to spend a lot of time, and you're even going to like them or hate them more, it's something in between. First impressions.
Well, with this one it was completely different. Gary Bias, myself and Matt Ryan different teams, So that night it was a combination of different members from different teams, all of who I was aware of, but we hadn't worked closely together, so not knowing Matt's capabilities or the other AFP members that were present, that sort of made it a little bit more difficult to operate.
It was you're bought in another aspect there, because there's an assumption that we all come with this knowledge and skill set working with police, but until you see it, really the pressure on you don't know if they're going to come to the four.
Yeah, you're right, probably one of the real benefits. I didn't know Matt's background, but because he was a Victoria Police member prior to joining the AFP, there was a specific element of our training that Matt remembered and actually said while we were out there on the night that I say saved our lives and that is due to the interoperability of our skills and both of our trainings.
Okay, let's talk about the incident, and we'd talk briefly because I want to find out a little bit more about you guys before we go in the full detail. But it was on the twenty third of September twenty fourteen outside in dever Hill's police station in Melbourne. You were both stabbed and the offender was shot and killed.
Matt.
Firstly, you're stabbed in the eye. You're stabbed in the chest. My understanding of it is a stab wound in the chest was sending meter from your heart. They're potentially life threatening. Taught me through what happened at the time.
Yes, so yeah, or during the attack, and I don't know what order it happened in. And you know, you sort of your body shuts down and does weird things during a critical incident. And you know, I went as soon as I saw the knife, I went. I had auditory exclusion, so I lost all my hearing. And then he sort of attacked me, and you know, I'm sort of fighting, fighting with him, trying to get my gun out.
You know, I couldn't.
I couldn't. I lost fine motor skills, so I was struggling with my whole stir and everything else. So when I say, like, I don't remember the order of the attacks, of their stabbing, I can't sort of assume, but yeah, I had a couple sort of over my left one dawn over my left eye and down the left side of my face, and then too in my left shoulder and that severed a few tendons and muscles in there. And then the one in my chest that went into my liver, and that was the life threatening one way.
I had to have a few units of blood put in in the hospital and all that sort of stuff. But yeah, they showed me the photos after the surgery and you could see the hole in the liver and then just to the right I guess of the photo. Yeah, it was my heart, so it wasn't too far off.
Well, we'll talk in detail about it. But you were lucky in a way in one Sanda Mator And you've probably we've all been the police and you've seen it. Sometimes it's just one stab wound that can take someone's life. Now you were there Nile obviously, and you were stabbed as well.
Yeah, that's right.
So I was stabbed first as I've gone to search Newman. The first stab wound entered the my left forearm, which severed through the older nerve. Now the owner nerve controls your motor skills in the hand and the muscles, so it essentially rendered my left hand inoperable, so I couldn't use any of the fingers. And then the second knife wound was a defensive one where I was trying to throw my arm onto the blade which slashed me across the wrist with fish superficial cuts.
Okay, and again a traumatic incident and the best of things. But another layer that do you fed the fatal shot?
Yeah, that's right.
And I've been involved in numerous police shootings and investigations into police shootings, and I've never seen anyone come away from it that hasn't been impacted. I'm not taking taking someone's life.
Yeah, you're right, Gary, And look, I always acknowledge action normally beats reaction. Myself and Matt were very lucky to escae that incident with our lives. That's how I firmly believe that. But the impact, Yeah, there's the personal, there's the professional and the family impacts. For example, I had surgery with my left hand to reattach the nerves and get the strength back. And my daughter was very young
at the time of the shooting. She was about twenty two months old, and I remember being on sick le even trying to put a scrunch in her hair, and because I lost all the fine motor skills, I just couldn't do that. And for me, that's the family impact that really concerns me. My wife and daughter didn't sign up for policing. It was me and I accept the risks of when we go to work every day and wearing firearms, there is a reality we might use them,
whereas the family have no control over this whatsoever. So to see my family impacted due to things I couldn't do at home anymore, that really causes me emotional turmoil.
A heavy situation that you both found found yourself in. Well we'll unpack that, but before we do, I want to find out a little bit about about you guys. Who are you? As a young fellow, Matt, I grew.
Up in I was born over seat in pap New Guinea, and then moved back and spent a bit of time in North Queensland and then moved down to the mid north coast of New South Wales.
So that was with all the moving, the around and puppy in New Guinea. Was it your parents work or I know, just.
You know, Mum went over there to have me.
She moved over there with her sister and brother in law and had a few kids over.
There in Lay.
So she went up there and spent a bit of time there and I was born, and then came back and and she met my dad or my who like I call my ad, you know, probably twelve months or so after she moved back to Australia and then yeah, spent a bit of time, went back to New Guinea, spent a bit then back to North Queensland and then down to the mid north coast of New South Wales.
Did you always have aspirations to become a cop?
Poor? Not really. It was more.
I wanted to join the military, So out of school I joined. I joined the RAF as a photographer and I had a few years there and then got out, did a bit of photography around Melbourne, and then thought I need a full time job, and Vic Poul were recruiting pretty heavily and saying that like I had thought about joining the police sort of towards the end of school, but it was more just thoughts and talks and nothing
really sort of all that serious. And then I thought, you know they got good leave and good super and so in ninety six, so I joined up to Victoria Police.
Okay, how long did you just stay in Victoria Police before you went across the a.
P About seventeen years I think, I think, yeah, ninety six to twenty thirteen.
All right, what about you you as a young guy.
So I grew up in country northeast Victoria, so up in ned Kelly Country, came down to Well. I wanted to be a policeman from about four years of age. He's having a little police station at home. When mum and dad would get home, I would go out and put a ticket on their car and raking some fines.
I'm I'm surprised you haven't ended up in the highway patrol. Yeah, nothing wrong with I opener correctly. We patrol absolutely.
So I came down to Melbourne in nineteen ninety six, got into hospitality, but he was at that stage. Matt got in when it was a boon recruiting and then it dried up until early two thousand. So I then joined in two thousand two days after my twenty fourth birthday in January two thousand, So twenty three odd years in policing.
Okay, you've had a couple of interesting You worked on the Pirana Task Force. Yeah, just explain that the people that might know it.
So, the Parana Task Force was investigating organized crime and also the Gangland murders which were prevalent from two thousand onwards down here, with something like twenty eight deaths or murders, should I say at that stage. So I came to Parana Task Force in January twenty ten, promoted to the rank of detective and we were allocated in investigation on a Middle East and organized crime character that had significant
influence in Melbourne, Sydney and elsewhere. Usual ill gotten gains and elf So the Primo Task Force that was a dedicated crew that was then looking at the Phase three mop up of people who have survived the Ganglan wars.
As we all knew about the underbelly.
Yeah, exactly right, And that's really where I was working with some great detectives Mick Hughes, Detective Inspector Dave Jones, Steve Cooper, some really good investigators there which gave me mycraft within the detective world of investigations.
There would have been a lot of pressure on there because it was so high profile, and we were talking before we started the podcast about the impact that has on family and that you could be home but not actually present, And I would imagine the job like that, getting a sense of the pace that investigation was going. At the nature of the work, that would have been one of those times where your focus was very much on your work.
Yeah, absolutely, Gary, And as you know, with investigations, it's not just focused on a sole area. This many different branches off that it goes that you've got to allocate resources and time to that, whereas it's not just an eight till four Monday to Friday job. You're playing catch up football by trying to find out what's been occurring on the phones, listening devices and other methodology that's in play to try and predict the next move of what
that organized crime figure would do. But then when you're getting home, you are you're president at home, but quite literally, you're still thinking about work and what's got to be
done the next day, the weeks after and onwards. I was very lucky that we always had very strong detective sergeants and inspectors and superintendents running our investigations that would really keep us focused on what the main goal was, so when it would try and branch off into different areas, it would be brought back into That's interesting.
I've seen long investigations. You can start chasing rabbits down holes because you uncover so much and your head's in overdrive. But yeah, a good leader or officer in charge of an investigation does keep it the focus. This is your role, this is the focus of what we terms of reference and let's stay stay on track.
Absolutely. We had the AFP Detective Superintendent Des Appleby worked really well with our vic pohal To Textive Inspector Mick Hughes. They were siding, they were sidestepping everything that would occur
handing glove responses. It was a really proactive, targeted investigation that we were doing and it actually got the relationship with Victoria Police and the AFP in Melbourne back on track again for the work that we did, because previously we'd had the Tomato Tin's investigation of the ecstasy tablets where Victoria Police had been removed from the building by the AFP. So several years later the relationship was back on track to target all.
Yeah, there's been that over the years that with a pushback from state police and AFP, but hopefully that's across the board that's getting better. Yeah, and I think with AFP and Matt you can talk to this because you're worked in both AFP are getting this. They haven't been in terms of police in the round for that long a time, but they're starting to get the experience. And you're getting people who have had their whole career at the sharp end of policing.
Yeah, and yeah, I think you know, they've they had their sort of issues early on, and I remember in Big Poll, you know, I was walking down to do our early on just to forget how the academy. Actually I was posted into Melbourne. We were walking down La Trope Street. We were walking because we were going to use the range at the AFP offices and one of the detectives from the Melbourne COB said to me, oh, you know, we're going to the AFP and you know
they're useless and hopeless and that do too much. But sort of you know, fast forward, you know, fifteen sort of twenty years and with that experience and over time plus working pretty closely with other police forces around Australia, and you know, that experience in the AFP, and there's a few things that they do really really well, and that's what they're sort of trying to focus on, you know, like the big drug imports, terrorism and all that sort of stuff.
Yeah.
So plus they're also actively sort of trying to recruit police from other police forces, which sort of I mean you're sort of buying experience and you're sort of bringing.
Someone in bringing in that experience. Well, you said the seventeen years in vic Pole and then you went across to the AFP. What was the decision that swung you to go across.
Yeah, I was I was doing actually I was working in intel at the time, and I was doing a secondment with the AFP out at the airport in a joint in the joint intel group out there, and and.
We had some.
Victoria Police detectives that were out there in the in the investigations team. So it was these joint team and it was really it was really well resourced, and you know, we're looking at basically trusted insiders around the airport and just sort of seeing the opportunities that the AFP offered was like, you know, this is you know, there's something
bigger than vic Pole because you know Vic Pole. You know, while I had I had a fantastic time there and worked in all different places, but you know, sort of state based.
I know what you're saying. And I would often when I was in New South Wales police look at the AFP and think, oh, well, you could get stationed overseas or different investigations a bit broader. So I can see the temptation there. You've come together. Let's start talking in the build up to the incident, what drew you both to counter terrorism?
So I I was in the Security Intelligence Group at Big Pole for a couple of years in intel there, and i'd started studying my masters in intel. But just before I sort of around about that time going to SIEG, I sort of started seeing you know, the national security sort of things, sort of got interested in in terrorism, and then I switched over and started to do my masters in terrorism and security, started working at Security Intelligence Group and then and which dealt with issue motivated groups
and terrorism. And so this is when they started sort of started working in with the early days of the j C T T Joint counter Terrorism Team what Nyla and I were part of. And yeah, and I guess it just kicked off from there and sort of working in the area and you know, sort of getting that interest, I guess was the main motivation. It took me a few years to get over there, but yeah.
Look, I think it's a fascinating area of policing. And my thing was homicide. But if I had a choice of where I'd go outside of homicide, and a regret that I didn't do counter terrorism because I think it gives you a world view of things. You've got to look at things deeply, and you've got to be more proactive and from a criminal investigation point of view, at homicide, we sort of kick in when the shit's happened and come and investigate the crime. But with counter terrorism, it's
about predicting the crime and preventing the crime more. Now, your interest in counter terrorism, how did that come about?
Yeah, so there was some self interests in there at that stage. There was some reshuffling at Parana Task Force of our crews and we're then given the offer of what other task force would you like to go to? Now, because the Organized Crime Task Force was operating in the Federal Police building, I had my security clearances, computer access, understood who the different detectives and federal agents were there.
Victoria Police traditionally had one crew of detectives in counter terrorism and they were due to be rotated out, so there was an opportunity to stay within the AFP building working in counter terrorism. At that stage, I thought to myself, from a resume perspective, the self interest of this is a crime type really unique to common legislation, the opportunities that come with it, as Matt spoke about with the AFP, the travel, the experiences is far beyond what Victoria Police
could provide. So working jointly with the Commonwealth and bringing the machineries together was something that really interested me. So in twenty twelve that's when I transferred over to the Joint counter Terrorism Team.
All right, well, it's interesting that's what drew you to counter terrorism, and I would suggest it at that stage you didn't think you'd be victims of a terrorist act. You thought your role would be preventing those acts and keeping the public safe. But as it turned out, you guys became victim of a terrorist attack. Nineteenth or twentieth of September twenty fourteen, el Bag Daddy issued a fatwah. What I understand and you guys might be able to
add to this. It's like an edict or a ruling by a recognized religious authority on the point of Islamic law. So fatwah if I'm pronouncing it properly, This fatwa related to calling for attacking five Western countries including Australia, Canada, France, USA, and United Kingdom, targeting specifically targeting police and military intelligence. When that was issued, Let's hold on to the date,
the twentieth of September two thy fourteen. The incident that you guys were victims of was twenty three three days later. You would have heard about that encounter terrorism or be aware of it, and at any point in time you think that would impact on you so deeply and personally.
No.
I remember rocking into work on that Monday, was at the twenty second and our analysts had got the fat wa, and so they downloaded it and gone through and highlighted it and emailed it out to us all, and I
remember reading it. You know, it was you saying, you know, attack the disbelievers in their own countries, and you know especially you know, the US, Canada, the filthy French and Australia and sort of reading it going oh, yeah, you know this is just the usual rhetoric, and you know that that isis carries on with and just more sort of more proof to what we're about.
As in the j C. T. T.
You know, we've we've got to look at this a little bit more closely. And yeah, so and you sort of think, you know whatever, you know pretty much and and then I guess when you start sort of in hindsight, you're looking back and there's all these indicators around what did happen at that stage, you know, throughout the western countries and you know in the Middle East, and you know that that fat wire was a pretty important call to arms for ISIS, and.
Yeah it was. I guess it was the start of bigger things to come.
Well, when they're when they're identifying the potential targets as police and or military, we stand out like it's not it's not hard. And I remember when that came through, there was a point in time when it was just reiterated to us that you've got to be careful out there. Again, your your take on it.
Yeah, as Matt said, the intelligence tellists had done some
work around it that stage. I don't think any of the Western intelligence agents has had any strategic knowledge of where this document would end up, and essentially the world was watching and certainly our incerdent then hallmarked what occurred from that data on September onwards twenty fourteen, with many terror attacks inside inspired by ISIS in those different countries that were nominated specifically against police and military mainly that
were targeted. So Curtis Cheng in New South Wales in twenty fifteen, absolutely, yeah. The police in New York ken Healley on foot patrol a month after our incert when a Muslim convert took to him with a hatchet to the back of the head and the police fatally shot the offender.
There.
We saw attax in France for the police in their police station and it can you need on So when we myself and Matt both had a trip to New York and we met with the director of counter Terrorism over there and he spoke about whenever New York speaks about terror attacks, they always speak about Davie Hills, Melbourne, Australia.
Okay, so that's well when we're looking at it. When it was issue, that was three days before you guys were attacked. So how were your tasks that day? What happened? You got together and that was a tasking you had to go to speak to Newman.
Yeah, we were originally we were originally tasked on the Monday to go and speak to him and Victoria Police their security there security and organized Crime Intel unit. We're going to go and speak to one of haters mates. And it was sort of a bit of doing and throwing on that on that Monday, and it was decided we didn't have enough people, so it was put off until the Tuesday.
So can you explain going to speak to him the purpose of what you were trying to achieve?
So for us, I looked at three objectives here. To start off, there was no arrest power for what we knew about what his behaviors had been. So the first one was around disruption. So I look at it if we're talking about the crime type of drugs, if we were to knock on a drug dealer's house and alert them that the police are watching you, you would see
them stop drug dealing straight away. They'd move out their hydro crops so their pill press whatever it is, and start up in another location in a few weeks time.
So disruption for us. Initially, I'm thinking, okay, if we're in front of him, he'll see that there's some interest in his behavior and he would de escalate that because what he'd been doing was google searches on Prime Minister at Tony Abbott at the time, had been looking at how to make explosives example, and also the daily agenda of Tony Abbott where he'd be when he was next
coming to Melbourne. So there was behaviors we're aware of, as well as him waving the Shaharta flag at the Dandidong Shopping Center on the Friday before our winter.
And just to explain those that don't know what that flag.
Is, yeah, so the Shaharda is an Islamic display of faith, essentially meeting there's one God and only one God, which is black and white in color and was similar to the one I think displayed at the Link Cafe siege
out the windows by Man Monas. So Newman had been waving that flag at the Dandidong Shopping Center, which is a very multicultural suburb where you've got Sunnis and Shia Muslims, and again there's some social disharmonies between both of those religious groups, so for him to be waving the Shaharta
flag caused significant alarm. Now, luckily for us, we had twenty five Victoria police recruits doing a foot control at that shopping center, doing a training operation, getting confidence speaking to the public and being seen in public with their
accouterments on. They spoke to Newman on the day where he cooperated with them, gave them his identification, but also told them that he wasn't here to cause harm to the shoppers or the shopping center, but at some stage our government would pay for what it's done.
Okay, And this is coming from an ada and year old kid that's well not intimidated by police. Yeah, that's right, dynamics.
A little bit, absolutely correct. So that was part of the reason why we're speaking to him about the flag waving. So the second objective was intelligence gathering and the third one was human source acquisition potentially.
Okay, So did you consider it the high risk? It's something that you did informally going out to speak to and how many police went out to speak to him? Where are you going to find him?
So, like I said, you know that Monday was decided we wouldn't go out and then on the Tuesday, we came into work and they said, okay, we got and they bought four in them. So it was me and the other guy who were going to go out on the Monday, plus Nile and one other so we had sort of four people.
Okay. So at that point you anticipated that was a potential risk you're taking four police out, and.
You know it was.
And it was sort of around this time that because he was an asy O person of interest, so they'd sort of pass that down into the j C t T that that they're obviously a part of, and they wanted us to go and speak to him because there was some intel around him wanting to purchase some knives because they're not armed and police are. Then that was
sort of their sort of that they're there thinking. And importantly that the previous week when he was waving that flag around, there was some counter terrorism raids in Brisbane and Sydney and now I think there were fifteen arrests, and that was why he was waving the flag.
Around, showing support for the YEP as well as you.
Know that well at the time we didn't know, but you know that that was all that you know, you know, travel to the Middle East, you know, for you know, for Western has traveled to the Middle East. Yeah, fight and that. So it was all and his passport had been canceled and all this sort of stuff by Asia would sort of done this. But yeah, on that and funnily enough, we'll go back to that. That Thursday when he was waving the flag, he went home and made
a phone call that night. There was someone in the room with him. We don't know who that was, but he was making a phone call and as because he was a person of interest of Asia, they had his at his phone tapped and as it sort of started ringing, he was talking to the person in the room with him and said, referring to the police officers at the Dannlong Plaza that day, if I had had a knife, I would have stabbed them. And that shows where he
was at in his own head. But the Azio interception team didn't listen to that phone call because it was not answered. That went off and just sat in the ether. And you know, that wasn't discovered until you know, months
into the coronial investigation. So you know, there was a lot of intel you know that wasn't passed on or that was missed sort of in the lead up and on the day of us going out there, saying that we did know that Hayda was with some of his mates out at Warburton doing some bushwalking and clicking spring water and this sort of thing, because we were getting
reports from Asia surveillance that they are out there. So that's why we decided I would go and speak to his mom and dad and just sort of get a bit of an insight and a feel into what they were like as well as what Newman was sort of going through with their thoughts. So that's when, yeah, the four of us went out to the family home. The two other guys stayed in the car and Nyla and I went and had to chat with their parents and his two brothers were there at the same time.
And what saw the field? Did you come away from the house after speaking to the parents.
So initially Gary my role was to be on the cover team purely for this deployment. The day before, on Monday twenty second of September, I'd been promoted to the rank of sergeant at Nari Warren Police Station, so about fifteen minutes away from Daver Hills would have been the uniform station where I was going to be starting at in counterterrorism at this stage for coming up to three years, who had completed all my counter terrorism training, had a
reasonably good feel for investigations. I was a Tier four interview advisor. So being comfortable with people and knowing their body language generally and how they'll react to us gives us that insight that ye're speaking of. So at the last minute, the decision was made by the AFP acting team leader out there to put me and Matt together to speak to the Hater family. We arrived about three o'clock in the afternoon with the Hater family greeted by
the mother and father in a modest house. From memory it was they were very nice, respectful people to us.
There was no.
Sign of any animosity or hatred towards the West from them, and they are absolutely the people and their sons that were contributing to the social cohesion that the Australian or Victoria was enjoying at that stage. So we spoke to them at lengths about Newman's behaviors, what he'd been up to, the sort of the life movements of what he's been up to, and they were speaking reasonably positively about some
futures with enrolling in Tafe to do a course. He had a part time job, So for me, there wasn't the worrying factors that this is coming up to a fatal intersection with him because of the way that they were letting us know that they were monitoring him. They told him to stay away from extremists, and they had a picture of him, which we knew behind the scenes, he wasn't telling mum and dad the complete truth as to his associations with those people.
I put him myself in that position if I went and spoke to a family and you're looking at getting the background or the feel of an eighteen year old kid, and then you meet the family like that give you some sort of comfort that aka, well it's maybe it's just a kid being a kid, and his radicalization hasn't run that deep, the offense hasn't happened. Then you've got to sort of anticipate what's going to happen.
As you know, within policing, there's the guilty act, guilty mind that's got to be complete there now from a
risk assessment point of view. On the Monday, the twenty second of September, Newman had some involvement with Victoria police from July, so three months earlier, well two months earlier, where he'd actually been present at the fountain Gate shopping center in Endeaver Hills, fountain Gate at midnight, where a shotgun had been produced by a third party, when Newman actually took the firearm off that person and voluntarily gave it to Victoria police investigators in July and made a
statement to support the prosecution about the person that had had access to that firearm. So certainly when I got access to that statement, I readit that provided me some comfort, thinking, well, in July, he could have turned that firearm on the investigating police members, but chose to give it to them and make a say.
We're only talking three four months before, correct, Yeah, okay, all right, so you went to the family home. You're then due to meet him at the police station. The arrangement's been made for him to come to the police station or no.
Not. At that stage.
We'd sort of spent about an hour, I guess, talking to his mom and dad and his two brothers, and you know, they sort of they were, you know, allaying some of their concerns, but also just looking around the house and you know, like it was, you know, and they were really nice, care you could just tell that
they were a caring, caring family. And because we'd heard about, you know, wanting to purchase knives and and he was waving that Shaharta Flager the previous week at dwan Non shopping center, we asked to look at his room and we went up had a search of his room, just a very it was a cursor research, but just to make sure that there was nothing there, and there wasn't. Like he was pretty sparse. I think he was living between that house and his mate's place, so they were
sort of he was going in between. So we had a look there and then we asked his mum and dad for his phone number and they gave it to us, and his mum I think her comment was, he never
answers his phone. You can try, but he won't answer, and we thought okay, So then we left and knowing that he was still out out east with his mates, and we went back to in Devil's police station and we were sort of sitting around and Nile said, well, we've got his name, we might as well give it, give it a guard and lo and behold, he answered after about the second ring, so from an unknown number, and there was a bit of discussion between him and
I ale to where we were going to meet. They initially wanted to meet us at Hungry Jack's in Hellum, and as we know, it's probably not a good place to talk about issues of terrorism around families and all that sort of stuff, plus our security and all that. So there was a lot of toing and throwing about coming into the police station, and eventually he agreed to come in and I think it was about a quarter
past seven when that phone call was made. He said, yeah, I'll be in there and about in about half an hour. So we were sitting in the mess room at the police station, the four of us, you know, we just sort of discussed what we would, you know, where we'd go about it. And because Nile and I had spoken to his parents and his brothers, it was sort of a pretty obvious decision that we would be the ones that would go and speak to him, and yeah, the other two just sort of hang back and.
Did it just be about so he arrived at the police station, or saw him out the front of the police station.
Yeah, so the phone called a newman as Matt said was about quarter past seven. There been a decision within the four police members there that myself and Matt would continue on with speaking to Newman in regard to it, because we'd had the information. Yeah, considering my role was purely covered team, I didn't have an interview plan done up, so as Matt spoke about we quickly workshopped what appropriate questions.
Without knowing him, there was a bigger counter terrism investigation going on behind the scenes, So in my diary I Will wrote down some basic topics to discuss with him. I spoke to Matt and the other AFP members about the need to search him upon his arrival because some of the information we'd known was that a month earlier he'd been seen playing with a knife. So when we look at our control of weapons legislation, you've got to suspect on reasonable grounds so that they've got access to
a knife. I'm thinking about the legalities of information from one month earlier, with no current intelligence around that do we So as part of the planning, we're going to search him when he arrives. Because Newman had stated to me on the phone he didn't want to come inside the police station, which for me and our three objectives.
That was fine.
We could meet with him anywhere, as Matt said, as long as it's safe and secure and we had our numbers there without impacting public safety. So Newman said he'd be there in fifteen minutes. In reality, it took him five minutes to get there because what was unknown to us at the time, he was running every single red light to get to meet with us.
Now that is.
A telling benefit of hindsight, isn't it absolutely creeped himself up into a friend.
Yeah, that's right.
The myself and Matt don't have the ability to We've not heard him speak before on a telephone, so I don't know when I'm speaking to him about whether he's being guarded, whether he's being honest and open with us, apart from my own sort of intuition as to what I think this phone call is. In the background, I heard someone saying, get them to come to us, top stuff. And that's why we decided no, no, they come to the police or he.
Comes out a good call.
Yeah, in hindsight, absolutely, but standard policies essentially.
Okay, so you've decided that you'll speak to him, did he ring you or you just wait out in front of the police station for him.
So he then phoned us up within that five minute period to say I'm out the front of the police station. So I asked what car he'd be in, which he described it, and then myself, Matt, and the other AFP members spoke about essentially the order of March.
So myself and Matt would go out to speak to him.
There's no way I'm taking four police members out to speak to an eighteen year old who's voluntarily coming into a police station. It's the wrong look, absolutely it is. So the decision was leave the two federal police members inside the police station. So if we can bring him back in, great, we've got coverage. But if not, we knew there was surveillance outside covering us as well.
How far away were they from when you guys first approached him.
Yeah, look, not aware of where they were. I suspect they would have been probably around one hundred one hundred and fifty meters away with from what I understand, they didn't have a clear eyeball about what was happening, but they were in the vicinity and they knew our proximity. So myself and Matt walk out we both had our day books with us casually dressed. Now it was about seven thirty in the evening. The weather had been a beautiful day, but then in the evening it turned reasonably chilli.
So if I knew we'd be out that late, I would have had a jacket. So the car was parked about thirty meters away in a combined area where it was residential. There was the childcare center and then the police station and close proximity to each other. Now, the first thing I noticed was newman had reversed his car into the car park and was sitting on the bonnet.
So for me, that was a little bit unusual, ast wide revers his car in considering no other car spots were taken and he had free run essentially that car park. So I called out to him, caught out his name, and he acknowledged it was him, and he started walking towards us, And again understanding or looking for risk factors on looking at his behavior, there's nothing in his eyes, as nothing in the way he's walking towards us that
indicates some sort of attacks imminent. But the alarming thing for me was he had his right arm in his right jacket pocket, and his left arm was down by his side. Now, for me, if I've got a jacket on, it's either both hands in my pocket or both hands out. So the one hand in the pocket was reasonably alarming for me considering the intelligence it was known. So as I'm walking towards him, I'm thinking, how do I see what's in that pocket without disrupting the intelligence gathering, the
human source acquisition and disruption. If I was to stop and pull a firearm on him and ask him to open his jacket, if he didn't have a knife on him, that would have been a national incident and I would have been looking for a new job. I suspect the next day. So I thought, if I extend my hand from a distance, he'll see that it's an act of chivalry, will shake hands, and that will be a good judgment point to see whether he's going to respond to that. So I took my hand out, he took his right
hand out. We met, shook hands, and I introduced.
Him to Matt.
We walked back to his vehicle, where I then placed my daybook on top of his his car roof and then said to him, Okay, I'm going to give you a search out to make sure you've got nothing on you. From that point, Newman asked why, and I repeated, as we're going to search you. So with that, Newman turned around with his back to me to make it look
like he was complying with a pat down search. So Newman put both hands on the car bonnet, and that's when I stepped in with the left and right hand up to start the patdown search from the shoulders back down. At that stage, Matt was at the about two meters or a meter and a half away from it, looking in the back window of the car to make sure there was no one else in there and what other
intelligence might be seen. So as I'm just about to step in to do the search, Newman, unbeknown to me, in that right jacket pocket I was speaking about, he had a pocket knife with a blade of probably about six centimeters on it. So with that knife he spun around and has impacted me in the left forearm, slicing through the older nerve. And at that stage, the brain and the body working at two different speeds. Here, I'm in detective mode, thinking about the questions, thinking about the
methodology behind what we're going to do. So then to see the glint of a knife butt in my forearm. It's the old hang on, what's going on here? So then newman pulls the knife back, goes for me again, which this is really close range for out here. So I throw the left arm on it and hits my wrist as I'm trying to move backwards to gain gain some distance away from him, and then with that I actually fall over onto the ground because again the brain and the body working at two different speeds, so I
fall over. With my training from the early days of policing, if you're on the ground, if you're in a pub situation, you'd always try and cover your firearm. So that training kicked in where I thought, I'm going to have to cover my firearm to make sure he doesn't get it, incorrectly assessing we'll hang on. It's not trying to get my firearm. He's actually trying to kill me. As I'm rolled over onto my firearm, that's when he steps over me and walks straight over to Matt.
So Matt pick it up from there. Is that how you how it's just been described by Nile? Is that how you witnessed what went on? Then?
Yeah, So I was sort of around that driver's side looking in the car, because we knew he was with his mates that day, making sure there was no one in there that going to surprise us or see if there's anything anything in there. And I heard I heard Nile say, you know, I'm going to search you, and then new Hman say why. And then I sort of as I'm sort of looking in there, I've I've looked up, and then Nile wasn't there, and I was sort of, what's sort of I was a bit confused as to
what was happening. But by this stage Newman had moved around. He was probably standing about level with the front driver's side tire, and he had this that that that folding knife just at his at his waistband and he had this and I remember this pretty clearly. He had this demonic look on his face and it was and I'm sort of going, hang on, what's going on?
Yeah? What what is you know?
And and what While I say, I'm thinking this process like this is happening, like you know, really really quickly. And at that as soon as I saw that knife, like I said before, I had auditory exclusion. I just went I just went deaf totally couldn't hear. I couldn't hear anything. And apparently I don't remember saying it, or I definitely didn't hear myself say it. I yelled knife and as you do in your training, and and then
Newman started started to attack me. So we probably, I don't know, a meter and a half two meters away, and as we know in our training, you know, we're taught, you know, within you know, six meters with a knife, you don't have that much time. So I'm sort of fighting with him with my left arm, you know, push trying to push him away while I'm you know, trying to get my.
You just had a playing close whole.
Yeah, So it had a.
It had a small button sort of down halfway down the holester that you'd push in and and then pull your firearm out. But lost fine motor skills. So I'm pushing the button or pulling pushing the button in all you know, and you know, while we're struggling. So I just couldn't get my firearm out. And then so he so Newman was was attacking me, and and I thought,
you know, I need to create some distance here. You know, this is getting a little bit serious, but still in my mind, I didn't know at that stage that i'd been stabbed, but I sort of did, but it was this confusing time, but I knew how a knife, So I'm moving away. So I sort of moved back and thinking I've got to create more distance, so I went to ground.
Had he stabbed you multiple times at that stage, Yes, you didn't. I didn't realize it didn't. Okay, so you're stepping back.
So so, like I said, I don't know what order any of the stab wounds happened. But I moved back and thought, I've got to go to ground, create some distance, you know, so you can use the legs to keep them away, and this sort of thing on my feet. So I've gone back, gone to ground. Thought I'd give himself some time to get the firearm out. But anyway, he has then sort of moved between me and the daycare center that we were sort of parked outside, or we were speaking to him outside of it was closed
because it was seven thirty. But so he's come down the left hand side and around behind me as I'm on the ground and I'm trying to get my firearm out, and then I could sense him leaning over me and I thought, this is.
This is going to be it.
And I knew, you know, sort of from CT and seeing ICE's videos and what the what their what their aims were, and you know, this is his goal here is to kill me and then behead me. So that was going through my mind, trying to get my gun out and everything's still deathly silent, and then the next thing I heard was a gunshot, and then Newman just fell dead beside me, and I next thing was Nile said,
are you all right? Because I'm not sure if you think he shot Newman or he shot me so we I said, yep, I'm all good, and he said, go and get some ambulances. So I got up and sort of trod into the the police station.
And this is when I realized that I had blood sort.
Of streaming down my face and my chest hurt. Anyway, got into the police station, there's a few people in the in the watchhouse, you know, that had come in to report stuff or whatever. They were a bit freaked out by Copper running in, blood gushing out of their face and said, when he gets some ambulances. There's a lady in there. She got on the phone sight away
ordered some ambulances. I would then went back outside just to make sure everything was all right with Nile, and then I went back in and got some arm and got some first aid, and then the ambulances arrived, and.
Did you realize the extent of your injuries? And like, it's a pretty savage scar right beside your left eye there and the chest injury.
Not at the not at the time, I knew like my chest hurt and there was a blood, a little bit of blood, but most of the blood was on the inside because the knife went into the liver. Livers is like a plastic bag full of blood.
So that was that was the serious issue.
But I didn't know. I knew that I'd been stabbed there and this one was probably the most A lot of blood in your face, so that was continually streaming and there's a small sort of artery up here, so that was burning a little bit of blood and stuff like that. My shoulder that and after I went back in, that's when I knew that something had happened to my
shoulder because that's when the pain started from that. So yeah, then the ambulancers came and put on the on the trolley and then you know, the green whistle and off into the Alfred Hospital.
Okay, well getting back to back to you. Now you've been stabbed, you're on the on the deck, then Matt's you're hearing what's going on there or getting a sense of what's going on there, and Matt's on the ground. Take us from what was going through your mind?
Yeah, Match is saying it. Then, well back, I remember just before Newman stabbed me, I saw his eyes as well, and were demonic. I think he's the correct They were fiery, bright red. Essentially, you could see the anger. You would see that there was significant harm you wanted to do with us. So when I heard Matt yell out knife, that for me prove I had an absolute clarity in regard to what my actions needed to be from here. Without operational safety and tactics training or ost knife means gone.
There's no other way in policing that that can be interpreted. So I was hearing Matt and Newman struggling as I roll off my firearm, knowing that Matt's being attacked here, I look over and I can see it and Matt is now on the ground and Newman is bent over him and stabbing him. I believe around the shoulder area at that stage, and it is ferocious.
You're seeing this, this is yeah.
That's right, absolutely, all while I'm drawing my firearm. So to the credit of the training, I actually did run through in my mind about baton spray not effective, close range, too far or.
That.
So, yes, this is a firearm. Intern I'm going to have to discharge it. I caught out to Newman who instead of the police challenge, it was actually get off him. I yelled out that obviously no impact. So from about four and a half meters away, seeing that he's stabbing into Matt, all I have to shoot at is It was a really tough target.
I'm not a.
Not i'd say extremely proficient with a firearm. It had been five months and three weeks since I'd last done the firearms training, so a little bit rusty when you're nearly out of cycle. So I know all I've got to shoot at is either the legs or the head. I don't have a torso to shoot at because he's bent over Matt. Now, of course, without training, it's the center of mass that we're trying to shoot at. The
legs they're close to Matt, where Matt's lying down. If I shoot too low, there's a chance I could shoot or kill Matt. So the head at this stage is the object for me to shoot at. It's a moving target, it's low light, it's four and a half meters away. I've got blood coming out of my left arm. I managed to get the firearm out one handed, steadied it
with my left arm, and then a reactive shot. I had the sights lined up with human's head, pulled the trigger and impacted him in the head, killing him instantly. Now for me, the relief when the body fell beside Matt, and as Matt said, I asked if he was aka and he said yes. For me, that was thank god, Matt's okay. Again, not realizing how many injuries Matt had actually received, and at that stage, I asked Matt to go inside and get some assistance. At that stage, my
detective training really kicked in. You'd remember when you did your detective training. There's a crime scene prack. You've got witnesses, offenders, the media, everyone turning up, and you're the detective in charge and directing it. Now, a week before i'd been involved in that shooting. I'm a regular blood data every three months. The person who took my blood actually made the comment to me that.
If I was to.
Lose ever to lose blood quickly, I wouldn't go into shock as quick as others because my body's used to losing four or five hundred miles of it's interesting blood. So at that stage, then after the shooting, it was okay, he's clearly died as a result of the shooting. Now it's about the preservation of the crime scene, because, as you know, within policing transparencies the number one thing about.
What we do.
Yeah, I look just on what you guys have told that happens so quick and the thing that you're up against in policing, and I think you guys have articulated very well in the way that you've explained the situation. You're coming up at a level of an awareness. You're cautious, but you've got someone that's coming with a malicious intent to go at you in a frenzied attack like you did what you just described. It's like time slows down all the things that you're trying to process, and then yeah,
you've switched. I think this I want to unpack this a little bit you'll switch straight into police made straight after an instant. As I said in the introduction, police you put on the uniform, carry the badge or whatever, you're still human for God's sake. You guys have been stabbed and someone's been trying to kill you. You've shot someone, and you're thinking about preserving the crime scene. I reckon
we take a break at this stage. When we get back, we're going to talk about the aftermath of it physically and emotionally, and just on your views on all things policing. But I also want to say, guys, thanks for sharing the story. Like I'm sitting here thinking is this the right thing to make you guys read live it? But if one thing it does, it sends an important message out that you know, please get put up on pedestals and sometimes deservedly, sometimes undeservedly, but there is a sharp end.
The police and then you guys found that. The found it in a big way. So how about we take a break and come back for our part to thanks.
Thanks, great cheers.