The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, staid, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome back to part two of my chat. We've retired Detective Sergeant Bob Wells. Welcome back, Bob, Please carry. I'm glad you've come back. Yes, not that you had anywhere to ga.
That's a stage. That's all good.
If you listen to part one of our chat, we talked about Bob's career, a lot of which was spent out working in the bush as a country cop, and how he became a detective. When we finished off part one with Bob, we're talking about a crime scene he was called to where a man, John Price, had been murdered. We're going to pick up from that crime scene. And I think at the start of part one I gave a listener warning that it's fairly graphic details we're going
to be talking about, so just fore warning. The nature of the crime was quite brutal and quite macab Bob, we had you at the scene. What was the address or what was the town?
Was it Aberdeen? I think from memory now is twenty four years ago. It was twenty five so and Andrews Street, Aberdeen.
Okay, so you're there. I'd just bring everyone up to date. If they missed part one. You've been called out. There's been concerned for welfare because John didn't turn up for work. Yes, and he had told his workmates that, look, if I'd turn up, this lady, I'm saying, Catherine.
Is as possibly I've been killed by being killed.
They've turned up the doors shut, they see some blood at the front door. They call the cops. The cops go there, gain entry into the place, and they find John's skin hanging from a hook and then they've looked further into the house. What else have they seen?
Well, if they've gone to the down the hallway which was which there was a huge amount of blood in various splatters as you would call it, and also with hand hand marks on it as well. They've found who we've since found to be Catherine Knight Carmo, tasting the
bed which was John Bryce's bedroom. They've managed to sort of bring her around in a groggy state talk he sat on the back steps initially lead to the house whilst they've decided that look, this is a this is something that soon now needs to be Graham Furlonger was a formative technic sergeant and then shift supervisor, knew the ropes as far as serious crimes go, and said, this is this has got to be sailed off until we get the we get the guys here from crime scene.
So which which I which? When I got there, I just had a quick cursory look at the at what at what Gary and Scotty James had seen the same thing.
Could you could you take in what you were seeing?
Not well, well you could take it in because it was it was right in front of you, but right right there and then you thought, this is just this is one out of the box. This is this is something that's going to not just be a short, sharp murder investigation, sheerly because of the scale of.
What had happened to the victim.
Because I was going to get out, you know, And Graham said, Graham, I remember, Graham Furlong, I did something, mate, You'll need to have a look at the pot on the stave, which I did, which contained the head of John Price with a number of vegetables.
So doing it in it So we're talking the pot on the stove with wader ahead and vegetables in there and.
Have been cooked. Yes, so you know. But and I was just saying, this is this has just got to be sealed off. It's one of those crime scenes. No one goes in, no one go out. Scottie just stayed near the door, start a log, those sorts of things, just that routine stuff that would go through as a detective. And and we.
You're saying routine. But Bob, Yeah, when you go look into a kitchen, then you're seeing describe what you saw.
Well, I had a good I had a look at the skin hanging on the doorway.
I saw John Price's body was in one piece.
I was later on to find out from the forensic pathologist who him back together that it would come off in one section. It was all whole, the you know, the finger tips.
To the end of the days skinned yep, okay, sorry, I interrupted.
Now you're right, and so it was. I then contacted the forensic services guys, Neil Raymond and Permacio, and they're on their way and I sort of had a conversation about what it was and I think the worlds particular over in.
Neil Raymon's head.
Particularly, And when they got there, Uel said, mate, this is We're going to need more than still photographs of this soon. He said, My suggestion is it might take a while, but we need to get the video unit up from Sydney, which they did, and they methodically went through that crime scene by video with the with the crime with the video unit guys as they did their crime scene investigative work.
And what was what was discovered in the crime scene described the.
Well basically basically John Price had obviously been in bed.
He'd been attacked viciously with a large bladed, wooden handled knife which got basically a butcher's knife, probably more a boning than a flirting knife, and he's obviously taken flight and I'm having the soon described me basically by the forensic Service guys scientific cops as I called him in those days, and that he was making his way down the hallway while he's continually being stabbed them and probably probably through the forensic examination of the guy from Newcastle,
was that eventually he was struck a failed blow through the back into the heart around short of the front door. He's managed to open the front door because there was bloodstained fingers. He's on the front he's managed to get the front door open and about to get outside when he's obviously became deceased and the front door was slam shut, and he was obviously left to what was going to happen to him from there on.
So what where was his body? You've described where his skin was.
We're just aside the front door. There's like a lot of entrance ways the houses. There's as old corktiles on the floor. There was that section in there and half onto the carpet where we stepped into the land room.
His body was in there.
And he was decapitated. Yes, skin, yes, any other injuries obvious injuries.
To multiple multiple stab wounds more so noticeable through the post mortem examination by I'm trying to think of the forensic pathologists name. He said, Look, there's up to thirty seven stab wounds throughout his body, Okay, which were evident also through the skin when it was and when he was put back together.
Basically, right, you've you've found Catherine Knight that she's described a camatoes laying in the bed in John's bed, and then she's been taken out.
Yes, she was taken out. And actually as I arrived, that was who was going into the ambulance to leave Judy Simpson, who was.
Did you know at this stage you were going to be running the investigation?
Well it was our area.
Yeah. I was a detective.
That was my job.
So you you assumed control of it.
Yeah, that's what I was called because I made I was a senior detective in the in the Lacks.
That was my job.
My job is to decide that I'm going to do it or or how we do it. But yeah, it was my job. So and that's my responsibilit because that was my area. Everybody likes to everybody likes to have control of their patch. Area, No, I understand, so certain, just some instructions to dy make sure they get some scrapings under her fingernails, different things, all those sort the things that.
She was under arrest.
She wasn't under.
Arrest, right, She was in custody basically, I guess she would say under the new terms with two thousand, because she had a police officer with her. But she wasn't going.
Anywhere because she was she was foggy down in the nitty grit.
She was, she was really groggy. She wasn't going anywhere, and she was taking to Mayland Hospital where she was placed into the psychiatric ward because once the hospital found out why she was.
There that she was, she was put straight.
They think there must be something mentally wrong with this woman because of what she alleged she's done. So she went to the sight. Would where where she was I guess tranquilized medicated would be, I guess because.
Until we knew what.
Was going on, I think that was the decision's medical practitioners to continue to medicate it. But I think they medicated it also because she'd taken a lot of prescription medication, mainly painkillers those sorts of things. But which we found out later through the investigation that it would have It would have made her quite sick. It would have made a drowsy and put her asleep, but it wasn't going
to kill her. So obviously we've looked at her, we're looking we were looking at a potential murder suicide if she passed away. But the doctor said, mate, she hasn't consumed enough to kill her, so she's going to eventually wake up. So how they medicated her through that to get her up And basically she was never under guard in that in that psychiatric wood.
Because she was they weren't going to let her out.
I've been speaking to people in there. It's a cured era, isn't it.
Yes, get out.
So we were left with, Okay, she's not going anywhere. We've got this crime scene which the guys are coming done.
It was video.
Recorded, and it was a matter of okay, we've got these guys. He'd made it was about time to start getting some statements and commencing a brief of evidence. And that's all we got about doing, was you know, and as you know, in investigation, one statement lease to another statement, loose one other statement.
Where you'd be starting with these workmates and the person that called the part.
And you know, and because it was like a little place like Aberdeen, it was a big thing. It was a big because everybody knows everybody. You know, it's one of those more country towns again where one happens in Downstown Erskineville. Some people wouldn't bannle it at it. Yeah, another murder or some parts of Sydney.
It's just a but it.
Was a big thing for a town like that. And of course everybody went to everybody and that everybody's chin was wagging out of control and.
People came forward.
See I saw I saw it her two o'clock walking back towards the house.
You know, in the thongs. Well you're a loud of it.
She just looked like she was in a trance walking back to the house. This woman puts a dog out it every morning at two o'clock and runs out of the lawn as a leak, runs back inside. It just so happened it this morning, same thing, she's walking back towards.
The house, you know.
So there was just statement aftter statement saying to get to build this brief because we knew there was probably going to be a number of days delay in getting an opportunity, if we were ever going to get an opportunity to an interviewer, whether she would have been capable to be interviewed, because this is the big thing you think about, well, you know, and we're ever going to get a chance and anyway.
So in those days, you're gathering as much evidence as you can with statements. Did it start to paint a picture in your mind?
Painted a picture that it wasn't rosy in a relationship, painted a picture that they could have a blue at any time, But it didn't paint a picture of what had happened. It was just the messy situation where they didn't they got on to start with. I think because it was a new relationship for them both again, and sex is a big part of a new relationship and
those sort of things, things are rosy. When he got down to the nitty gritty and a bit of reality sets in, things started to changing a little bit for a lot of couples, and I think and it was they'd burned together for quite a while, so maybe it was just coming towards itatural end. And as I progress through the information, I sort of got more of a clearer picture of why she may have taken such drastic measures as what she did.
In gathering the evidence. Did you did you turn over her place?
Turn her place over down it with a search warrant then on the main highway in Aberdeen. And it was a house that was full of horror movies. How he had a fixation for all sorts of horror movies, all genres of horror. I think there was still a lot. There's a lot of DVDs were sort of on the rise in that era. There was both so moving to a more modern toile collection than others, but it was
all horror. There was a huge amount of stuffed animals throughout the house, but a lot of a huge library of horror movies.
How many are we doing? I probably talk him probably one hundred or more. You know, they were creepy.
Well that's but all that sort of stuff that people into.
Horror by the stuffed animals as in toysh.
No no like birds and eagles and all sorts of natural wildlife for.
A fauna straight out of those sorts of things.
So it was sort of and it was a dank, dark house, you know, and there was I think a little bit of premeditation started to end in my mind when because the evidence flowed that she was at her his house in her car, then it was gone at a certain time of night, was taken back to her house. It had driven right into the backyard of a place
like it was a possession thing. Someone around midnight, at a minute to midnight was at Musclebrook with his key card, took five hundred dollars out, waited for a minute past midnight to take another five hundred out because obviously.
Had a limit of five hundred on his account.
Prettymede knew enough was in the mind of enough to be able to go and do that sort of activity with a cup card with his Cree card.
And then because the Creek card was found back at the.
Scene, okay, so this is prior or post the murder. You're thinking, this is post the murder, okay.
And then she's gone back to the premises after getting rid of her she's obviously on the muscle Brook yeap, taking the money out, taking the cash somewhere to her home, I would imagine, or someone her car back to her own home and parked by the backyard, so that was on her property. And then we're seenhim walking back to the scene at two am.
That's that I would be thinking, putting the homicide had on, how do we get to this, you'd be looking that's good evidence to rebut any mental health issues, isn't It's she's.
Pretty switch on.
Yeah, it's like there's no insanity that as a defense when she's capable of Okay, well, I can withdraw money, I can cover the tracks. I know what I've done is wrong, and I'm going to try and cover my tracks.
But I think the money was possibly because of the attempt to take her own life relation to the prescription medication. The money was for someone because you had young children yourself. Okay, that's a summation at that stage. But no money was ever found, and that was the search of a car the premises the whole boxing. I say, whether someone else was involved or she'd burned this to someone, Yeah, that was not established at that stage.
So how many days after you've attended the crime scene are we looking at before you got to speak to her.
The afternoon of the next day, Because we worked all through that first night and the end of the next day. I sort of had a bit of an episode where I thought that this was getting a bit much.
You know.
So I was sort of heading home and I sort of took a bit of a.
Bit of a left turn and went down to and I spoke.
I rang Phil Lloyd, who was prosecutor at Newcastle and a well respected coscutter, and he said, come down, come down home, and we'll have a couple of beers and we'll just see how things work. So I had it, went down to Phil's house and we spent some time and said, look, I said, I think I'm going to get a chance to interview this girl, this woman, and I'm thinking that I might make applications if I get the video unit, because it was only ever going to
be done in the hospital. And Phil said, that's a good idea. What we'll do is we'll get the video unit. And he said I'll come up that day and we'll interviewer, or you can interview her. And he said, oh wait outside, but he just put my toes a little bit to say, mate, it's not going to get on top of you.
I've only got one person interview.
So I took Phil's guidance and appreciated it very much. He said, right that sort of perked me up a little bit more confident. So about three days later, I've got the opportunity to interviewer at Maitland Hospital.
Okay, so you went in there with the video opera.
Well, first off, I made sure I had plenty of paperwork from the hospital to say that she's able to be interviewed. She's aware, she's she's got all faculties about her. She's not saying any signs of she's been assessed by psycho psychiatrists too, said that look she's fine to she's lucid, she understands, she's alert, she's.
She can receive retain relay, that's information, so she can say she can be interviewed.
She had a barrister and young solicitor there and the barrister said, look, it won't take long. She says she can't remember anything, so just go in there and run through the motions.
She's going to tell you.
She doesn't know what happened, she's got no idea and so you'll only.
Be in there five minutes. So we went and.
Close to an hour of an hour later we came out to a nation face. Barrister doesn't know what she said. Her solicitor was in there with that during the interview. But the interview sort of went from I think she really had a lot to say, but it wasn't about what she'd done, it was about what had happened to her during her life.
Did you put the information to her that this is what we're found when we've come into the premises, you are asleep in the bed and card all that.
Yes, yeah, nothing was put well to her. Nothing was not put to her, nothing at all. But and because the allegation had to be there for her, allegedly us thinking that she was going to say, look, I've got no idea what happened. I've got nothing to say, you know, you know, just but she just started to talk about this is I can tell you what's happened to me
over the years. And I don't know, I can't really remember the word for word interview, but basically the crux of the story was that she'd been through a number of relationships. She had a very hard upbringing as a child, had had a father who was abusive towards a mother sexually and physically, with a almost.
On a daily basis.
As she witnessed and moved the rent moved on to her relationships through the years of one marriage and then three mile partners afterwards, and basically.
I just kept it going. Just will tell me about it.
And it was probably after we got to the second partner after her husband, John Chillingworth. Mind you, she had she had children to all of these first three men for John Prist, and I thought, well, just let it go and that's what she's and then then then started the twig. Well, if this is the case, it can be there can be two scenarios. So these things really happened to her, which forced her to say, look, I've snapped,
I've had enough for this. I'm not going to go through this again with John Price, and I'm going to fucking get him, you know. Or she's leading me down a path of I'm a better wife and this is what's happened to me trying to build the defense, and this is what she's going to present a trial. So you just got to let the interview go the way it goes. You know that as far as what she'd actually done, could remember, I had no idea.
I don't remember that.
Okay, But I had a woman who could remember finite details as she told me about what happened to her through her life with her male partners, husband of male partners over the years, but not even the sheer resemblance of what took part three nights earlier to what happened to.
John Price selective memory loss. It's always interesting.
When you interview someone, you spend a lot of eye contact with them, you know, and generally not a lot comes out of that, especially when someone is saying that I can't remember things, but this Sometimes you might have a pause and a little bit of a break and you'll just catch their eye with your eye. And I did it on one occasion. It happened to me, and it left me with an impression that she knows. She's
just not going there, never going to go there. It's a movement of the eye and it's a swallow that they are, just a facial expression that they make that you know that I could spend days here continuing with this stuff, but I'm never going to get her to say, yeah, I murdered him or I killed him, or I did this or I did that on that night. It was
never going to go there. So I just had to take it to the end of where what she wanted to tell me about what happened to her and leave me with a ruster's why she might have done what she'd done, even know she wouldn't.
Admit to it.
Okay, Well that's yeah, that's all you can get in that those circumstances you touched on there, that you got that glimpse and I know that that subtle body movement or something that you picked up that this is I.
Know you know, had to lend me. Yeah a little bit.
What was your overall impression of it. Did she come across as a normal person, like guilty of a crime like that or capable of committing a crime like that? Did she give off an unusual vibe to her when you were speaking to her, or how did she present?
It was like a little bit like Jacky and Hyde, where Jekyl had a lot of things happened to them in their life and Hyde says, I haven't done anything.
You know.
So it was that sort of interview and that sort of thing.
But looks she was in stature.
She is quite a tall woman, quite strong looking, hardened, never broke down at all when she spoke, even when she spoke about what had happened to her in the past. It was just like this has happened to me. And I don't know whether she was maybe giving it, but I got through that because I'm tough or you know, it was just a weird feeling. So I ended that interview with, well, what have I got here? You know, I think I've got a defense being presented to me.
Where this is going to go when it gets a trial, because this is definitely going a trial. And so it was the better why syndrome that and look, if that was the case, I had to go and investigate that matter deceive if it was that case.
Yeah, we've got to You've got to rebuff all yeah.
Exactly that evidence. And to be fair to everybody, you've got to be fair as fear to them as you can to be is fear to everybody else. Everybody else deserves fairness in all these sorts of things. And that's where you go, and that's right to go. So off I was getting read off, I go, you.
Know, speaking to her ex partners people that know her, Yes, yep. And did it did it come back like the way that she was representing?
No, no it didn't.
So when I presented there was four male people that were in this scenario. Her first husband, David kill It, her second, the fact their partnered David Saunders. Her third, John Chillingworth, and there was price. Apart from price, the first three were a lot smaller men, all very similar, but that good workers, big drinkers, and that's you know, love to be. That was seven days a week, but that was their life.
But they all worked.
And but they were all similar, stature, the same, and all very similar in character, you know. So to interview them all was to have a complete opposite picture, you know, And a lot of the what they told me was was backed up with with medical evidence, you know. Like I remember David Sawner said to me, he said, mate, I put it in his statements, he said.
I he said, I.
Was a bit frightened, But he said, not that frightened to begin with. But she could snap very easily, and we'd have a lot of verbal arguments. But he so, I remember one night I came and joined me out. He said, not come from the pub, he said. And when I say late, he said, I wasn't hours late. So I didn't stagger in a four in the morning. He said, I came here twenty minutes late, and she
was When I say she ironed me out. She was standing behind the kitchen door as I came in, and as I turned around to see her, that's the last thing I remember, because she's hit me with the steam. Iine in a fist, breaking the jaw in multiple places. I wake up his muscle. The hospital wired up lock a.
You know. Was she charged with that.
I'm not sure whether he decided to bet on with that assault.
Yeah, he might have.
He could have. I can't remember. And John Chillingworth was the next. And then after there was another incident with Saunders about twelve months later where he was laid having the pub again not extremeulate. His dog had just had a litter of pups and as he got home, she came out the back and she held one of the pups and cut her head off in front of him, and she said, if you fucking come home late any more from the pub, you'll get the same thing.
That's creepy. That's creepy.
That was That was the last draw. That was the last straw. That was the last straw for David Saunders. He was out, he was I snuck out. I snuck up that morning at two a m. With what clothes I was wearing.
And left best decision his mate. He had to leave his.
Daughter, young daughter behind with with that biggest That's the way it was. And then you know, she just then moved straight on to John Chillingworth.
Did he have a story like that? Basically he was. He was. I said I was assaulted a lot. And he had a little bit of that.
Man thing about him where he's trying to not make himself look weak, I guess. But he said, you know, she would just attack me in the car when I'm driving and pull my glasses off and twist him up and break them and throw me out the window and all those sorts of things and just laying the me in punch. And he was quite a passive sort of guy, Johnny, I would never hit a woman, he said, no, you
know I suffered black eyes. I did, and there was medical of he had to go to a hospital one time and be treated for I think a broken nose or something. But he said, I've actually got a pair of old glasses here. You know it Saw went into the brief. I've got a pair of glasses took my face and screwed up. You know, I had to wear them sort of a bit weird until I got a new set of glasses, but he said, for some reason, I've always hung on to them. So that went in
the brief. That was an exhibit. There's all those sorts of things.
So you're building up a case here and that you're rebutting the evidence or the things that she told you and showing that and not be completely the opposite.
And I can only run the brief on what she told me in that interview, you know, and what the other witness has said, but basically to interviewer and get the opportunity to interview. But you know, you always you always wanted to know why why would you do that?
Why would you do that?
Why would you do that?
And that is with an exclamation mark that you know.
The post more than examination and the forensic pathologists. And I'm sure this would have formed part of the brief. How difficult it this?
Is?
It to skinner person?
Stunning four cuts but complete all together?
And how long would it take and what sort.
Of well I guess that's that's a question for a skilled fillter or b Yeah, because she was an avatar worker.
Okay, well that's the type of thing that she was very skilled with knives, Okay, very skilled.
And loved her knives.
Her first husband, David Killer, when they were married, she attacked him the first night they were, on their wedding night. Gave him a bit of a hiding because he only had six three times in their wedding night where where she was told by her mother that her father had six six times with.
Her mother on their wedding night. So he fell short.
He fell short, so he said, mate, flog me, beat me.
And they used to. She used to mount the knives above the bed. Loved knives, love the knives, you know, so talk about red flags warnings. Eventually he just he left.
They had a couple children together, and then John Chillingworth. They had a boy, him and Catherine Knight. But John was the same. He said, I just got me in the end. He said, all the ways I could work out to try and pacify never worked, and he said, I just got me down.
So I just left and led me.
Youngl Okay, how long into the investigation from the time and the murder, did you form the view that she's.
Going to be charged? She was charged that day. Okay.
So after the interview, Phil Phil Lloyd was waiting outside and because look it was a homicide. We knew she'd communed this homicide because there was too much physical evidence. There was just preciously there was just there was no other explanation she done it. And I was quite confident that after the interview that she needed to be charged and some form of cussing decision made for her. So it was actually Filloyd and I drove her back in
the hospital. Does she required any hospitalization any longer? Nope, She's right to go. So we drove it to Newcastle Police station with she was formally charged there. Yeah, bar refused, bar refused, Yeah, and she remained bar refused. I'm not sure whether she made any concerted attempts really through the Supreme Court to get bail.
When did the Like you're running the investigation, so you've got a lot of things happening. Was at the point of when when she was charged and the facts were presented at the court. When did it hit the media? Because I remember it, but I was in the cops, so we were hearing it sort of the direct.
When did it with the cops?
Event the cops went, the event went through well, look a little town like Aberdeen. The press were the press were there by the afternoon. Actually the press were there by lunchtime really because they got pleae scanners say, can hear what's going?
But did they know the nature of the It was a fairly horrific murder. They weren't really aware of.
The press had worked out something, something.
Bad and it was a bad murder. It wasn't it wasn't good.
But once the facts hit court probably three days later, that's when it was like front page news. And that's like when when she was going for just a routine court here, because everything was through the muscle Brook Court at that stage until I could get it back to Newcastle really made it easy for custody reasons and different
things of transportation. But by the end it was any time she was making an appearance of court, it there was water wall cameras and photographers and reporters and so it was a big girl because it was it was a big deal, because that's those sorts of things you know, we got back twenty four years ago in Australia. It wasn't well worldwide, it's not a big thing, you know, And of course we know how the press like to they up the anti things, you know, and she was
known as the Australia's Hannibal Lecter. She was known as this, she was known as that, And that money came from the fact that once once the facts did hit court, they realized that the head in the pot, They realized that she'd removed parts of his rump and baked it in the oven and cooked vegetables with his head, and then dished up two plates of his rump and vegetables and put two of John Price's children's names on those plates.
Whils.
So once once that was found out, by the principle that really they really went into overdrive.
Australia's an Ableekta she.
She she wanted to feed these kids him.
I don't know if she actually wanted to, but Walter Miles were prepared, They were prepared, and the kids kids often came around.
Okay, but that's that's part of Gary, That's part of the.
Why why do that? You know?
And there word that in it?
Why kill someone?
But why that that extra yard? You know, that's the that's the full nine yards.
And I think the question you're asking yourself, I am, is why everyone's sort of fascinated by this?
It's just so bizarre.
Ye, it were strange, so I mean there's been mutilation, murders.
And different things, but this was out of the box.
It was you know, no, well, you've been in the cops long enough, so have I. We've seen the brutality of murder scenes, but this is just it's it's not just killing the person, it's the post activities that really is quite quite concerning. How long before she pleaded not guilty, pleuted not guilty? Okay, how long did it take to get the trial?
I think was within the eighteen months.
It was set down first Maitland District Court that's where our label court was going to be. Panel the jury took a little while because there was a few people in the jury that now from miam Town. I know the Techne well, so I've done him since he was Can I get out of this dur That's what jurors do, see missus Lee and these people that I knew, so they are right. So And Frank Akoiffe was was the
Supreme Court Justice Johnny's father. He was, he was, he was I thought, a great judge think in this matter. But the panel the jury were ready to go, and there was an application.
Made that.
In the absence of the jury then they've just gone through the formalities as they do with the Crown and the defense and the fence man application that when the crime scene evidence goes in and especially the crime scene video, that the he accused be exempted from being in court. And of course Frank a people woudn't have any part of it. He said, no, she will be in here. She will be in here for that, for any other evidence that goes before this court in relation to this matter,
the accused will be in the court. And that's sort of I think that was a little bit of a hard blade to take and on instructions, I think that night we came back to court the next day reader go with our first witness was an application in that they were prepared to plead to murder, and of course, as you know, with a even a guilty plea of murder, we still had to present all the evidence with a
number of witnesses. So, because Frank Kof is the explained of the court, I want to a one hundred percent short this woman that's committed the murder as a judge for sentencing. So it was basically it was basically just like a trial without a jury, but it was present I put most of the evidence in. It's the officer
in charge of the case. The crime scene guys did their bit, and basically but every exhibit, every bit of evidence went into was presented and tagged into that court matter, and she was present for the whole lot of it, especially the crime scene video. With another applications made well, now no longer can we excuse the accused from going through this, and he said no, She's.
Going to go through it. So we.
Played the crime scen video to the court and probably about two minutes three minutes into it, she became physically upset, started the rock backwards and forwards, then started to get to rock more, started to murmur, make strange noises, started to weep, then started basically to rock uncontrollably and until she collapsed on the floor in a in a state of hysteria. So another ajourment, and but Frank o'coffe, to his credit, said go and composer, because the accused all
the year whilst that evidence goes anyway. In the end, she sat through it, got through it. But I was a pleayar guilty, so it sort of lessened that.
Okay, So there was no insanity or mental health issues that she tried to present in the defense.
Was presented that she had a border that was suffering borderline personality disorder. And you know there's a lot of the population stuff as a form borderline personality disorder. But it was presented in fantasy that her upbringing and what she'd been through. But that's a sentence hearing. You'll always have a sentence hearing where they'll do their utmost best to present it and they presented a fair argument. But I think in the end, Frank Curve Justice FRANKO Kleek
was satisfied that she committed this horrific murder. She'd shown no remorse, she'd shown no cooperation in relation to how or why that had happened. And I think that was presented in his judgment in a way that he presented it to say that society can do with you being incarcerated until the day you pass away and mark the papers never to be released, which is what she became the first woman in Australia to have a papers.
Mark never to be released. I think it makes everyone feel a little bit safer. Yeah, I guess if you present a.
Present her as a danger to society, I think she was or a danger to the people who became personally involved with, especiallythically, but he was a sentiencing justice and he thought that would be the best thing for the community as a whole. Well, because you can't progress, you can progress as a murderer.
Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I think again stepping back to the crime, Yeah, there's a murder. If it's a crime of passionate anger, revenge or whatever, it's the activities that carried on after the murder that take it into that different realm. That's why we're sitting here talking about what's happened rather than someone that was murdered twenty years ago.
And most of my stuff is supposition. I surmise was it because she'd reached the end of I've been through three failed relationships, whether it be my fault or his fault or their fault or whose fault, it's not going to happen to me again, and if it does. Because he'd actually decided to break it off with her, he said, look,
it's we're done, that's out. And then a couple of times she'd always come back when he'd had a few beers, and then that actually had sex the night of the murder, right, okay, And she had got and washed herself in the shower and the black neg lag was was on the dresser,
and there was evidence where she cleaned herself down. Well yeah, well she she washed herself down in the shower when those body parts of his flesh found in the shower that she obviously it was a really frenzied attack, you know, and she was never ever And then there's another thing where you shower and clean yourself up from It's another way of and watching all of these horror movies maybe some certain ideas in her head. How do you how do you cover up a crime? How do you how
do you not show that you were there? Or different things? But at the end she did return to the scene, you know, and they over dosed and was probably gonna write but thinking well, I'm never going to wake up, you know.
But but she didn't. She didn't kill herself.
Like I I'm lost for words on the whole thing. It's just a crime that yeah, really shocked shocks people the nature of it. And did you have dealings with John Price's family?
How did they feel about it?
Did he have Look, they're very sorry that he's son. Idolizing John Jr. Even his first wife still idolized him. To her, there was never any and she was such a passive lady, And she said, look, and her evidence was he's just such a passive man. But you said, and it was his passiveness probably that in their relationship because you just didn't have a lot to get up and.
Go about him, you know.
Yeah, yeah, never violent, never, And she moved on from that. What a bit more, I guess, and lovely lady that all the children love the kids, you know, and they were, yeah there for even there for every man of forever now known as the children.
And the guy who had this horrific thing happened to him.
Yeah, it's a it's a hard thing, isn't it. And yeah, we shouldn't forget, forget the family and the people close to him that would impact and to have a loved one killed in that manner, there's.
Terrible, folks.
Did she have any people supporting her at court?
I think the daughters were there from memory, but.
There was no outward emotion, but they were there. Yeah, they were there, I think general support that salvation army lady was there those sorts of things A sister and those sorts of things. But they were not overt in there in anything.
They were there. It was the appropriate thing.
They were there, but they were there. I sort of think they were also taken aback as well. They were a little bit shocked she had done what she'd done, but they were there.
They were there.
Hey, guys, have you ever wondered what goes on behind the headlines of a gang war or shooting, then you need to listen to crim City joined crime reporters Mark Murray and Josh Hamrahan as they uncovered the details of crime unfolding on Sydney streets and share the stories that don't make the papers. The latest season of crim City is out now. Listen early and ad free on crime x plus on Apple podcast Today. How did how did this investigation impact on you?
It's never left me, Gary, really, I live with it every day. It's one of those things, you know. And when I was still in the job, it was such a huge thing for the media, and not that I wanted to particularly become involved in that side of it, but everybody wanted a piece of it, you know, And there was shows, and there was there was international shows, and there was different things. And in those days when
I was still in the job. I had that choice, but taking as because as the commissioner and police would say, well, you will be interviewed.
You know, that's get approval, and they so I did as I told.
I'm no longer in there, but it's it's you know, I still see a psych every month, not because of this particular case. I mean, it was just the straw that break the camel's back as far as my mental health went.
But I sort of, as we spoke earlier in.
The show about I didn't realize until years longer that that was the first chip that happened early in my career.
And it just wears you down. You've been there.
A lot of the guys and girls listening to this today, they've been there.
You know.
It's just it's what coping mechanisms you put into place to just deal with your life, you know. And probably it has affected me emotionally, and it's affected my character. It's made me not probably sometimes the greatest person to be around. But I've just got people who care about me, and you know, they they stick close. And but it's not just Catherine Knights Matter that's in the position. I've been diagnosed as a severe chronic PTSD, chronic moons. It's
just there forever severe moons has not great. But it's about the coping mechanisms and just how.
You deal with it, you know, and the.
Psychological help that I get just keeps me going.
You because you had a break after this, and you didn't leave the police, but you took time off.
I took a sick leave and I really dabbled with the idea of not going back to work. But it was unfinished business because that was before this is while the matter was still live. By the time I'd finished the investigation and the brief was done, and the DPP he'd had it, and I'd done the last requisition, you know, requisitions too.
I remember requisitions. They usually come in on a Friday night.
And there's normally about twenty items on them. And so by time and I thought, well this is it, you know, maybe I've just got to have a break. I went off sick for a while, and it actually transferred from Singleton and Hunt VLLY command to take up a position as one of the tag units were being brought in as of the first of July two thousand, so I was asked to take a team leader role in one of those TAG risks being developed for the Hunter.
Rougis and just explain to people what the tag the other.
News you said units set up as a target action group to target specific areas of crime around that.
Like a bit of a mobile sort of there's a lot of breakings in the town in an area, yeah, target same thing.
A bit of drug work need to be done. Those sorts of things you could be utilized. And it was a rugent utilization. So you can be used to go to tweed gout to the north coast anywhere, and basically the support unit as well as anything. And it was a little bit of an area for aspiring playing closed guys to come into it if they were thinking about that, don't have a trip to the TAG. If I like that style of work, maybe well I don't like it, I'll go back to the general gits or I'll go
to the High Patrol. So that's what those units were. So it was that period that I took a bit sick leave and dabbled with the idea that I'm not going to go back to work, but I thought, no, that's I've not only have I've got to see this matter through the night.
Matter.
It's I'm just not done with work and I'm not done with a work life, not just because it was the police saw that job. I wasn't done with a work life. To present a person to my children that I just haven't given up on. You know, I'm not going to take a pension and look like a pension of it in my forties. YEA, that's not I had this little thing in the back of my head that said, that doesn't present a good example to your children, and
so that sort of drove me on as well. So I did another ten years and the cops, yeah, after Catherine Knight, before I.
Decided it just was time.
Now.
The time now as the time. It was thirty close to thirty two years, and I thought, I've given them the best shot.
I've done.
I've done a lot of things in the job, you know, I've got no regrets. The journey was everything I expected them, probably a little bit more, and so I thought, I don't really need this stress anymore.
No, It's interesting because the fact that you identified you had that problem, you took time off, and you came back and put another ten years in. That that doesn't often happen. Quite often, you see people. It becomes that they put their hand up one time and then get some help and then come back and then feel like it's not for them. But another ten years.
How long in the cops did you spend? Just under thirty two? See you put in the big, big numbers, put enough in?
Well think so, I don't think people see it as a career these days anymore. Lot we spoke earlier, some do, but generally, you know a lot of people would give a crack for five years, a lot of the younger generation, but a lot that with a lot of jobs do think something for five years and say well, I've done this, I'll move on and try something else.
But what saddens me current times and that we're not just talking New South Wales place. It's across the across the country. And the federal police they can't attract people to policing. And I sit down with you and talk about your career and have a laugh and cry and everything else that goes on with policing. But it's such a good career we can't attract purchase.
And I've met some wonderful people in this organization, wonderful people, you know, I've met a lot of people who weren't suited to the job. Sometimes I don't know whether I really was suited or not, but I enjoyed my journey in my trip through it. Would I recommend it to.
My children or my grandchildren.
Probably probably not, Okay, probably not, because I don't want to see them go through that long term pain at the end of it if it doesn't work.
Out for them.
No, that's I can understand where you're coming from. When I'm asked whether people should join the police or go down that part, I say, from my point of view, yeah, I love the job, but understand it will change you. It will change you as a person. Whether that's better or worse, you don't know until you've gone there.
It will change you very quickly too. Yeah, I'm saying that's to my children.
Yeah.
But if someone wants to have a heart art cityw on I'm thinking to join the cops, I'd say, well, you've got to. If you want to have a crack, have a crack. I would recommend it for my children because I don't want it, you know. But if someone's got to join it, someone's got to do the work. You know, it's got to be done. It's something that we can't say, and.
It's from your point of view. It's worthwhile, isn't it. You feel like you're doing something worthwhile. You look back at your career and yeah.
I think so, Yeah, I do think so. Yeah.
You may make a difference in what they have a little way, but you're making it making a difference. What caused you? And I know we've talked as old cops do or old X cops tend to do, and talk about the problems with the job. It's not like our day and all that's of stuff. What caused you?
More stress?
The investigations or management, a.
Bit of both, but managements. I've never been in. The highest management level I reached was for three years at the region office. In getting closer words in my career was I filled in in a relieving capacity as an inspector in charge of the Northern Region Internal Fear Section, so but never ever got confirmed in the position. So I did it so I realized I could do that. I was never stopped because I wasn't able to do
that job. I was stopped because eventually there was someone with a bit of sadness in another area needed a position to be filled, so they plumped in and moved me back to my substantive positions. As soon as I couldn't do it, I did it so years myself to myself, I was, I was, I was job satisfied in that. But yeah, but manage and we talk about the Night matter. It was a bit of a stumbling block. And sometimes people get made, get paid quite postential money in this
organization to make a decision. Yet sometimes it seems to be so hard for them.
To make that decision.
And the problem I was faced with with Night, there was a lot of work to be done after that interview, a lot of work to be done, a lot of statements to be obtained, a lot of evidence to be gathered, a lot of evidents be gathered, and a lot of which was going to take a lot of travel to track people down, interview them, get them on paper. And because I was in that transfers stage from Hunter Valley, likely with Kamar, to the regional officers, it became I
went to the to the to the bosses. Now listen, this is this is a situation. This has got to be done.
Oh right, right, what do you need?
Well, I need to go and in view these people. Where are they I said, well, they're all over the place. They're not all living in the one street next to each other.
I said, there.
Some are in Coffsarbors, some are in some are in Maury, some are in the South Coast, somewhere out west, somewhere in Newcastle, somewhere in the Hunta Valley. But right, so what do you need to do? I said, Well, I just need a made a vehicle and a laptop and a car. A car and a laptop, thanks very much. Well, who's going to give you the car?
I said? Sorry?
You know, if I could make my own decisions, I'll just go and get one.
But I can't.
You got to make a decision. I need a car and some traveling allowance and I need a laptop. Right, Well, who's going to give you that? That's that's what I'm asking you for, your sure decision, not mine. And it was really disheartening to see these people.
There to make decisions that can't make decisions.
Pay the big bucks that can't make a.
Decision, I think with leadership, and it was all.
About dollars, Gary, it was all about the almighty dollar.
Jesus, Bob, haven't you worked out now that you can look very good in your application. If you've saved the organization made it says you could have gone so much higher if you just realize that. Look, I don't want to come across as a cynic with police. We enjoy it. It's a robust, robust organization. We have their fun. We take the piss out of each other and criticize the bosses and vice versa. But in leadership, the thing that would frustrate me is the leaders that are getting paid
to leaders. That's the structure of the police paid the leaders that couldn't make decisions. I don't always agree with decisions, but sometimes at crunch time, when the pressures on, you need someone to make a decision, and when you've got a boss there that won't make a decision one way or the other, that's the worst type of leadership. Make a decision a lot wrong, be it right or wrong. Take the consequences, but I'll respect you if you make
a decision. It's the ones that couldn't make a decision and just sort of sit back and watch see if it all blows up, and then they'll come in after and take credit if it's success or just some distance.
If it's not.
But it was that was probably the most disappointing thing about the whole brief. Was it just that it was easy stuff to do, but it just needed a bit of travel to do it. And it was just it was, it was and that took time to get that decision to be made, you know. And it's at the time you see that as time that you don't really have, you know, in the end, it was, but it was got on with it. But it's frustrating, and that's the
main thing. You just walk out of those scenarios thinking to yourself, like, it's just you know, it's just crazy. It's not I didn't want a million dollars, mate, I just wanted I just wanted a car with some fuel and with a fuel card and a bit of too. You ain't going to wrap this thing up.
Yeah, now I understand your frustration with it. Your life now post cops, you're enjoying yourself.
I think, so.
Yeah, I've discovered a bit of travel. I'd never liked flying, never get on a plane, So I'm racking up a few ear miles now. My wife and I go to We've been to Europe a couple of times, a couple of nice little trips. We've got grandkids and kids in the UK that we visit. My wife's a Kiwi so she's got family there with jet across the ditch quite often, those sorts of things.
But yeah, you know, like things are pretty good.
We've a lot of grandkids, are keeper's hopping, babysitting, plenty of sports with the older grandkids, a footy, bit of netball, those sorts of things. So we're very busy, and I think that's.
What helps you get through those sorts of things.
It sounds like you're living a good life, well, doing my best. Yeah, you're doing pretty best, but.
I still have still, I still have my moments, you know, those sorts of things. So with the psych and am a missus. She keeps me on straight and narrow. That's as best as I can. But yeah, look she's a great travel companion. We seem to get on exceptionally well when we're traveling.
You know, well, I saw you both turn up this morning and you look like you've been getting on well.
When we become stationary and hang around the house a little bit, the things get to hot rain, so that could be the case. But anyway, now it looks things are pretty good. Yeah, I just I'm never going to be one hundred percent emotionally and mentally, and that's just a fact of life, you know. But in saying that, I'm not Roberson Cruise on that, but in that on that boat, you know, there's plenty of others and there's some worse off than me.
So I just, you know, well, full full credit to you to have the honesty to talk about it, and also, yeah, dealing with it, you're dealing with it, you're acknowledging it, and you're making the best of the same.
I know I can be I can be cranky and hard to get along with, but that's that's part of what that does to you.
And who knows.
Had I've not joined the cops, I may have been it up like that. But but I can only say how it affected me, and that's and that's it chips away at you. That's what you can And it just wasn't Catherine. I I was well, I was well in trouble before that was just a tip of it. I was well in trouble before that before that brief came along.
You know.
For sure, that so okay, And most people are by the time they get it's around that twenty years. You know, if you if you're fully operational up to twenty years, you've you've you're starting to feel head.
And that pressure, that pressure, that pressure, that constant pressure. I do understand what you're talking about, but well we might wrap it up at this point. But I just want to thank you, Bob for service to the community. And I mean that like thirty years in the Cops' and the stuff that you've done, you've you've picked the ball all up and run with it, so full full credit to you on that. Thanks for being the type of cop that I think we need to a practical
approach to policing. And you're obviously a people person and I think that carries a lot of weight in policing and that makes everyone's job that much easier. I remember you from the Detective's course, and you were someone that got on with people and that communication that helps a great deal.
That was some good people in that course and I really enjoyed it. But there's some great poplent the cops. You know, friends forever, friends for life.
It's good.
Thanks Gary, all right, and thanks for making the way to come here on eye catch killers not a problem all the best for the future.
Thanks very much, same to you, enjoy your travels, Thank you.
Good cheers. The murder of John Price by Catherine Knight is one of the most macabre and bizarre murders I've heard about in my entire time in homicide. There's some crimes that leave an indelible impression on you, and that's one that's certainly left an impression on Bob.
But full credit to him.
He's a country cop. He spent most of his time in the country and you can see why he was valued in the community, and full credit to him. And had a great time catching up with an old friend.