The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side of life the average persons never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys staid, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Policing is acknowledged for being a rewarding but tough way to earn a living. Today's guests, Caroline Ohare, spent over forty years in New South Wales Police, which is pretty amazing feat
in its own right. She retired only last year after an impressive and varied career. Today, she's going to talk to us about her career in uniform and as a detective working as a negotiator, counter terrorist investigator and also indignitory protection. She's also a police prosecutor and is a qualified solicitor. She worked in internal affairs and has made
a significant contribution to policing across the country. We're going to hear from her today about heading up the negotiators team during the Kangy siege and the arrest of Ivan malatt Our. Career paths first crossed during the Sydney Olympics where I was doing close personal protection and she was the operations commander of dignitary Protection. Just to add to the pressure of that position, she was also six months pregnant at the time. She's a fun lady. Is he
going to find out? Who was very respected and liked throughout her career, as you expect of someone who has spent forty years as a cop. She's some amazing stories and today we're lucky to have her here in the studio sharing those stories with us. Caroline O'Hare, welcome to our Catchkillers.
Thank you. Is this when I get a caution or.
Now I've given that, I've let that life go. Clearly you haven't, but I could caution, you know, I do miss throwing out the caution you're not the bliged to say anything unless you wish to do so, but whatever you say may later be used in evidence. Do you agree?
I agree? I agree? I actually agree.
Well, there say whatever we say now we can use that as evidence. It's funny that things like that just getting better than your brain, doesn't it Just you can switch straight back into that mode. Absolutely, even though you've been out of it for a long time. So, how's husband Rick going?
He's pretty good. He's actually still working.
That is long. He's done a long since.
Yeah, it's nearly forty four years. And but you know, he's enjoying what he's doing. He's got one project he wants to finish. Yeah, and then I think he'll pull the pin. But yeah, he's going really well.
Well. I first met Rick when he was a team lead. They're in the tactical Operations unit and I was doing some comments there, so it would have been a pretty interesting household with you guys. There are you working as a negotiator and him dressed in his black overalls with all the weapons and ready to go and then rest the defenders after you've been speaking to them.
Absolutely, and it was during our courtship.
Really you fell in love at the siege? Well, well, kinder, yeah, actually, now you should have been concentrating on working you too, I know.
But I do remember one job we went to where I was the team leader of the negotiators and Rick was the senior field supervisor for the tactical team. And it was a job at Glebe actually, and we're trying to get a guy out. I forget what the issue was, but and I said to Rick, look, I don't think we're going to negotiate this guy out. I think it's going to have to be a tactical option. And he said, no, no, no, I think you can keep negotiating. And I said, no,
I don't think so. And this conversation was going on over the back channel of the tou and all the guys and all the negotiows go, are they having a domestic.
That is funny, just to add to the pressure and the drama of the seed, exactly, a little bit of domestic conflict always liven is a place up, Absolutely very funny. You joined the police in nineteen eighty one, Yes, okay, it was a different world back then.
Yeah, sure was. First of all, I was a junior trainee, which meant that I had my HSC. But I was too young to go to pass out. I was only eighteen. So I joined and went to Redfern, and after two weeks of you know, doing real book amendments and shoveling out hay in the sheds, they sent me to Petersham, which at that time was a punishment station. I later found out I didn't know what a punishment station was, but if you did something bad in the group, that's where you.
You'd meet all types in the punishment stage.
Absolutely, it was a strange place.
Yeah, I can imagine now. In prepping for the podcast, you sent me some stuff and I laughed at One of your early recollections of your early time in policing was cooking the prisoner's meals and basically and it wouldn't stand today's test of test of time with it. For some reason, the Police Social Fund had the contract to supply the prisoner's meals. Yes, you were cooking the meals and it was baked beans on toast for breakfast.
Lunch and dinner. Yes, I was really shocked when they said you've got to cook the prisoner's meals and I said, but I don't know how to cook. I said, it doesn't matter. I don't have to worry about that. Just seed up the baker beans, some toast and a cup of tea and that's it. And I was like, oh, okay, and by the way, while you're there, go and put the flag up.
That's right.
I thought that was a bit of a joke. And I went out and the flag was going up and down the flagpole because I had no idea how to even do that. But yeah, prisoner's meals says poor old prisoners felt so.
I felt sorry for him too, because invariably they'd be caught in the police station cells if the jails were full, or they're waiting to go to court, and they'd spent some time there. And I remember picking up prisoners meals and it was basically fish and chips or something for breakfast, lunch and lunch and dinner.
So they should have come to Petersham.
Yeah, I bet you they were really disappointed when they were released from the cells, missing your cooking.
That's it.
Okay, Well, that's a strange introduction into policing. Just give us an overview of your policing career. Like forty years, forty one years, forty two, forty two years. Yeah, okay, it's a long long time.
Yeah. And when I passed out from the academy at Redfern, I went to GDS at North Sydney for about twenty months and that was interesting because in those days we just had straight skirts. Our uniform was very restrictive. It was just straight skirts, blue stockings, blue flat ugly shoes and a little jacket with our go concealed underneath our uniform top so that people couldn't see it, because it was considered too confronting for the members of the public
to see a gun. So all the guns were actually concealed within the holster for the men as well, and it was a cross draw holster, so you'd have to lift up the flap of the holster with your left hand if your right handed, pull the gun out with your right hand. And fire women had small guns because they were considered to have small hands, so we had.
You just weren't tough enough to that's right.
Yeah, five five shooter Smith and Wesson with five extra bullets, and handcuffs and a bat and a handbag.
I don't remember that police issue handbags.
Police issue handbags. My handbag stylish very they went with the shoes. Mine is actually in the police Armory little museum that my husband's put together because he's the commander of the armory. And every time I go in there and there's some probationary constable in there bringing a gun back or doing something, always that's my handbag. And that's when I first joined the police. They just look at me and think, oh, you poor thing.
It seems like a lifetime ago, and like just what policings evolved to, like you only retired last year, But I remember we didn't have There was no computers when we first came. There was a what was a telex.
Machine effects it was like yeah, it was a teles and it came out and lots of cops who listened to this would remember these. You type it up and it had come out on a tape, and then you put the tape back into the teles and hopefully didn't put it in upside down or back to front, because it all would come out.
Some belfeathered walk in and walk over your telex tape and you had to retype the whole thing.
Absolutely, And we had Sylvester telephone boards, you know, the operator boards were the pulling pull out plugs and all that sort of stuff. No computers, no portable radios.
Yeah, yeah, it is hard, hard to comprehend, isn't it like it? I remember those switchboards because when you were a junior police officer, invariably you had station duty and I still remember you had to pull that lead out plug, that one in connect there, and it was just constant. I never thought I joined the police. I thought it was going to be an exciting adventure and here I am hornsby police station. Hello, can I help you? It just became yeah, and you put your receptionist's voice on.
Yeah you did.
Yeah, absolutely couldn't help it. But yeah, different times. So just a quick overview of your career. You've worked in such a variety of areas, so talk us through that.
Okay. So then in North Sydney, I went onto a list when I had about twenty month service. I had done a few jobs, a few sexual assault statements for the d's and they said to me, you're interested in playing clothes and I was. I was really interested. I wanted to you know, Yeah, that interested me a lot. So I was there for about twelve months and then the boss came to me. He said, I've got four women. Here's your transfer to the nappy squad, which was the
juvenile crime squad at the CIB. Off you go, and so off I went. And it was really good opportunity because everything was indictable. All the matters went to the Supreme Court, the district court that was child a used child sexual assault. We helped and at that time people were just starting to come forward with complaining about historical sexual assaults from when they were children, so the workload
was massive, so it was great learning opportunity. And then I went to Balmain Detective for about five years and worked at Ashfield and Annandale and bell Main and really enjoyed that. And then after that I went to the Special Branch.
Okay, yeah, which was.
A period of my career. I don't often talk about.
No one talks about this one talks about because I'm very special. I think the name it just Yeah, I remember what the Special What do they do? They seem to do everything that no one else does.
Yeah, well, actually basically what it was was dictatory protection for high office holders and also counter terrorism intelligence and investigations. So he worked a lot in those days with Commonwealth intelligence agencies and also looking after you know, dictatory. So Bob Hawk was the Prime Minister and we take him out to the races and you know, all these different places, and he was so down to earth and so funny
and loved the cops. People like that. The Governor General was Sinnini and Stephen and he'd arrive at the Corners jet base and you know, on Air Force one or whatever plane it was, and the door would open and galloping down the steps would be his labrador, which would go straight into the backseat of the Rolls Royce and we'd take him to you know, Admiralty House at Caribillity and.
It was that the Special Branch. And yeah, if there was any issues that needed to let's say, be handled with discretion, yes, they were a special branch branch would come in. So they are interesting times.
Yeah, there were really some interesting times. And I worked with some really good people there, John Garvey.
I don't know, you know John Garvey reputation.
Yeah, and we were kind of like the lock up squad. So if there are any lock ups, because we're both detectives and there are other people there too who did that as well. But I remember working with John Alt and yeah, he was fantastic. I learned so much from him.
That would have opened your eyes up to the world too. So like you know, hanging out with a prime minister and doing things. It's eye opening, isn't it.
It is? And I think the thing is too. In those days there was no internet, so if you wanted to know about the Palestine Liberation Organization, you actually had to research it in ways other than the Internet. So it was it was a different era of policing. Yeah, so it was good. It was really interesting. I loved I loved counter terrorism.
And where did you go to from there?
From there, I'm trying to remember. I went to Internal Affairs I think for about a year, and then I went to the Royal Commission into the Building industry.
I tried. I tried to get into the Royal Commission into that that tried the strike force because I had worked in the building industry, but I was told I was pulled aside because my father was high up in the building industry and said, oh, I know there could be a conflict of interest.
Oh really, wow, yeah it look it was really interesting and I met some really interesting people. Some really ruthless people, some really great people. But it was really an eye opener and I enjoyed it.
Yeah, the building industry back in those days, there was a lot going on in the building industry, and it was the fact that there was a commission into commission into it. It was important.
Absolutely, it was very political, but it was It was interesting and there was a lot of There was a lot of corruption from every facet involved in the building industry, from all sides. So yeah, it was good.
I learned a lot actually, Okay, so where too? From there?
After that, I went to the prosecutors. I became a prosecutor at Northwest Region and I loved prosecuting. I realized I knew nothing as a detective, and in between all of that, I became a negotiator as well, So I really and I did three years at Blacktown Court as a prosecutor. I work with really fantastic prosecutors, Dave Parcel, Steve McGrath, Like what they didn't know about the law was not worth knowing.
Just those names. It brings back memories because I crossed pars with them during my career and they were very good at what they did.
Yeah, there was one guy, Trevor Osborne, and all the solicitors would come and ask him for advice, and I remember magistrate asked me to address on a particular piece at case law and he said, I'll speak to you after morning too. So I raced back and I said, Trevor, I don't know what I'm doing, what is it? And he said, well, I was the court constable on that case in nineteen seventy two were Rockdale, and and explained
the whole thing like he was like an encyclopedia. So lucky to have those old guys who just knew everything in.
The legal fraternity too. You had so much time on your feet in court because the prosecutors would handle a lot of matters and even the committal hearing's for in diatable offenses.
Yeah. Absolutely, it was fantastic, and it was really at Blacktown. It was kind of I called it meatball, kind of like surgery. It was like going in one door coming out another, and people had have domestics in the registrars call over and you'd you know, almost be locking up the people going to court for their matters because they're having punch ups in.
The chaos of the chaos, yeah, but it was a good area to learn your skill set.
To absolutely the flow on effect from Mount Druitt as well for custodies and all that sort of stuff. It was just constant, but it was a great learning experience and I loved it at Blacktown.
I thought, even when I was giving evidence at the local court, like most of the latter part of my career, it was always at the Supreme Court, but I learnt my skills in the witness box at the lower court because it might only be for minor matters or relatively minor matters. But it was.
Robust, absolutely, yeah, absolutely, no, It was really fantastic, and it's quite intimidating as a prosecutor to go in and you think, oh, you know, I'm up against this particular solicitener or whoever. And then sometimes I'd sit back and I think. I remember one day, I thought, I think I actually know more than he does, because when he's saying to that, I thought, Wow, that was such a shock to me because you just get so much experience all day every day. Yeah, you're just in court.
And you've had those quirky magistrates too.
Quirky magistrates. Absolutely. I remember one at Fairfield. This guy came in. It was a domestic and of course he came in with his wife arm in arm and he's charged with, you know, assaulting her and I'm like, okay, this is probably not going to go well. He gets in the witness box and you know, he was defending himself full for a client and I said, you hit her,
didn't you. He said yeah, but I didn't beat and he'll treat her on the chart and the magistrate said, yeah, nothing, he can step down now.
He thought he jammed up on the legal I slapped around, but not what it says on the indictment.
Yeah, exactly.
Crazy times. In between all that doing the police work. You've got a lot of academic qualifications too.
Yeah, I was a bit obsessive about going Look. I grew up in Woollongong. I went to Berkeley High School, which was named by the local paper the Illa Warra Mercury is the nursery for criminals, which probably you know, I won't say anything disaporaging about it Newcastle.
We've got a little listeners down there exactly.
But I survived it and I always thought, you know, I wanted to get an education. I felt like I didn't really get and education, and I was interested in law and criminology and all that sort of stuff, but I really didn't have the confidence to go to UNI. I thought I'm not smart enough for that. And Frank McGoldrick was my boss at the Prosecutors and I said, oh, I think I'm thinking about doing law or criminology and he said, you're crazy if you don't. I said, I
just think maybe I'm not smart enough. He said, don't be ridiculous, and he really pushed me, and I did it and I loved it. Yeah, So I did criminology at Sydney UNI Law School and then I had a bit of confidence. I thought, maybe I can do law. Maybe I'm not that dumb after all. It's terrible to think that way. And then I did law and also did a Bachelor of Policing in Prosecutions, which I don't think they run anymore. But yeah, so it was good. Really,
I enjoyed it. And going to UNI as a mature age student with a lot of other mature age students and a lot of cops and all that sort of stuff.
It was great.
We really worked together and helped each other.
I think getting those qualifications helps with your own self confidence too. Okay, Well, because you look at these people, and especially in the field that you were working in prosecuting that you look at these people and think, well, I can't really match it with them, but to then put yourself through that and get all those qualifications. So what did you do in your spare time? I know I was there any spare time.
Well, I went to sieges with my husband.
Yeah, okay, so that's that's why. That's why, that's why you were flirting at the sieges because you didn't have time for a social life, so you had that. That's it. Okay, that makes sense.
Now my husband's idea of date night when he was at the tous, oh, let's go down to the armory range and you know, on a Saturday night and fire off a cannon or so.
But you were the one the arguments with your negotiating skills.
Well, that's what he says. That's what he says. I'm not sure that that's always true that because he just says, no, what about that I was thinking? He says, don't think, just don't think.
It just makes me laugh. Before the view two the sieges and that review negotiating him sitting there with very very funny, very funny times. Who were you before you joined the place?
Well, I grew up in Berkeley, berserkly, as many people call it.
Nothing to be ashamed of, nothing.
To be ashamed of. It is what it is, and proud that I survived it because you know, a lot of kids I went to school with they didn't and there was a lot of crime and kids I went to school with who were murdered and or who conducted murders. I mean, I'm not talking about lots, but it was pretty rough upbringing. And I didn't realize that until I joined the cops and looked back. And I always thought we were really rich living in Berkeley, because I wasn't cold,
I wasn't hungry, and you know, I wasn't neglected. And there are a lot of kids who were in that boat, not all of them, but some of them. And so I thought, oh, we must be the rich people. And then I went to North Sydney as a probationary constable. I'm driving around Mosman looking at these houses and thinking, maybe we weren't rich.
Suddenly that house wasn't that big after all.
No, it kept growing. Is we have more kids. So I was the third of four kids, and I was lucky. I had an older brother and sister at school, so I kind of felt protected at high school by them. Yeah, but my parents were just battlers and they worked hard, and my dad worked in the steel works. And yeah, when I wanted to join the police, you know, I left home at eighteen.
And you know what made you think joining the police, because back then it wasn't a career for women or no, it was a career that rather odd that women would even want to join the police.
Yeah. I know, even now, Garry.
I know we've progressed. Come on, surely progressed we have. We have a little bit, one step forward, two steps back. We'll get there eventually.
Well, a couple of reasons, especially my brother had joined the police. He was two years older than me, but he didn't state he actually develop schizophrenia at nineteen when he was about two years in and left, and I guess seeing him in the police and all that sort of stuff, I thought, wow, that's so interesting, And I really wanted to help people. I thought, maybe I've got something to contribute to the community. And I have almost
an obsessional fascination with people. And their motivation for doing things. And you know, I think it was an NYPD officer said that being in the cops is like having a front road ticket to the best show on Earth, and because you just exposed to everything. And I'm always being curious about why people do what they do, Why did this person commit this crime? Or you know, criminals don't have a great big X on their back. They're just ordinary,
mundane people a lot of the time. But their motivation really terrested and fascinated me.
Is a fascinating view into the world, the world that most people. I think that's the obsession people have with crime and true crime stuff. It's a world that most people fortunately don't get to see. But what is behind that curtain? Why do people do these type of things?
Absolutely, and you never know what people are going through what you know, everybody has their bad day. And I remember when I was probationary constable, this woman came into the police station and I was the reserve constable behind the counter and she said, she's probably in the fifties. I've just read in the Sydney Morning Herald, but that my son's fiance has been murdered. And she was really distrappsed, so I, you know, got onto the saw, this sergeant
got onto the detectives came down. Turns out her son had had a domestic with the fiance had punched her. They were both drunk. She died as a result of the assaults. So then we had to tell her that it was her son, and she was devastated and she kept fainting and I had to care for her that day. And she said to me, you know what, she said, how do I face that poor girl's parents? She said, you always think about the family of the person who's been murdered. She said, how do I live with this
knowing that my son did this? You know, I really felt great compassion for her. I just thought, of course, you know, the victim's family completely and utterly devastated. But this poor woman, she was just like so shocked. And this guy who did the murder, his brother was a police officer. It was just the most.
Bizarre thing shows And yeah, you're a kid back then when you look at it, and I look back at some of the things I saw and did as a police officer, but you didn't really have time to reflect on what it was. But what you just touched on there the crime murders at the extreme, but any crime affects so many many people.
Absolutely.
You see the parents of offenders that come in and you know, they've done everything in their power to put their kid. They love their kid, They've tried to do everything they can and the kid's gone off track for whatever reason, and it impacts on them. But the fact that you could understand that, I think that probably having that type of understanding of the nuances that come into play with crime, well that carried you all the way through your career.
Yeah. Absolutely, And I think for me, empathy and compassion and even for lots of people. And you know, like I said, criminals don't have the big X on their back. I remember when I was in GDS again, we got called to a shoppy at shoplifting at will Worse at Crowsness and this woman had stolen a leg of lamb. Who steals a leg of lamb? Why are you stealing a leg of lamp? Is because you want to feed
your family? Like it was just heartbreaking to me. Those sorts of stuff, those sorts of incidents really you know, resonated with me and left an impact and I just thought, poor woman like that you have to steal a leg of lamb, and they wanted her charge, and she was charged, and she just had this blank look on her face and almost like she'd given up, you know what I mean.
And horrible person that's trying to look after their children. But you've mentioned the word empathy, and we use that word a lot in the podcast here, and I do it in the context that the good police officers, the good detectives that I know that I looked up to, that were my mentors, all had that empathy absolutely in
their arsenal that they would understand people. And you did criminology also negotiating, you've got to understand where people are coming from, what's making them do what they're doing.
Absolutely, which has always been my fascination, is why you know what look behind what is right in front of you, what's behind that? How have we arrived or how has that person arrived at this point in their life life? You know? And it's sometimes it's just tragic. Yeah, it's really sad.
There is a lot of sadness there. But like any person that's been in the police for long enough, you would have seen some funny stuff too.
Absolutely, yes, I did see a lot of funny things and well dark humor, yes by them.
That's accepted on my catchkills, and I think we have explained it enough. People don't get to spend over forty years in the cops as long as you do without being able to see some light or humor in the darkness. Otherwise you're just going to destroy yourself.
Absolutely.
So yeah, our listeners are accustomed to the dark kit.
Okay, So it's I think interesting the people that you work with them. We talked before we came on here about Mahonk, who is a legend.
We'll talk further about my O. Yes and shout out to Wayne Gordon.
How to Wayne Gordon, God love you, Monk. I was involved in the rest of IIV Malatt and Mahonk. Wayne Gordon, detective sergeant with a very deep voice and very tough and very big and very intimidating, was the primary negotiator on our team. So there were four of us on the team. There was Mahonk, John O'Reilly, Peter Gillham and myself as a team lad. And we got called out told four o'clock tomorrow morning, got to be at Campbelltown Police Station. Didn't know what the job was, had no
idea whatsoever. Get out there. We're actually going to go and lock up a serial killer. And I was like, right, geez, this is a bit scary. And they said, we want you to negotiate him out because you know, we don't know what he's got in his house. It's too dangerous for his protection and for the cops and all the rest of it. We're going to do it as negotiation.
Happy days, Mahonk with his due voice, and because we knew that Malatt was a person who was really because I read some of the brief that morning, I didn't know who he was before that seemed to be a person that was very much focused on power and establishing power with his victims. That he would not respond to somebody like me saying would you please come out? He needed equal power, and Mahonk was the person with that equal power. I'm de turktive, Sergeant Wayne Gord, you know
that sort of thing. So we really had to think about how we were going to do it, and we talked about being strong and assertive from the very beginning of the negotiation and not being so complacent, but more directional. Not if you come out when you come out, this is what will happen, so setting the tone from the outset, and then as we were driving out there, it was like a scene out of you know, a movie. There were like, I don't know, thirty police cards.
It was a huge operation.
At like five thirty in the morning, We're driving out and there's blue lights. I'm very silent in the back streets are going from Campbelltown out to where he lived, and I was like wow, And I said to mahonk, look, I just want to say, we really can't afford to fuck this up.
So that's your sage advice before the exactly exactly don't flung up.
And he said, yeah, thanks for that. I said, no, really, we really, I said, I'm a bit worried that this could turn into a siege, so we just have to be like forceful from the get go. And obviously he didn't need to be told that. He knew that, but I was sort of like putting my fingers onto him just to make sure he got the message. We don't want to be here this time tomorrow morning with a serial killer.
But yeah, there was there was a lot of pressure on there because of the nature of the crime. It was as big as it gets. Yeah, in the history of policing with taking down Ivan Malat, it was crucial from the arrest at the time, the stuff that was found in his place and everything that. Yeah, it was.
Really amazing, honestly, Gary, because you know, mahnk rang and said, I'm detective Da Da Da Da da Da. Is Ivan Mallet there? And he said, no, he's not here, like and this is at six am. He was as bright as a button. He and I just thought, wow, this guy. You know, most people answer the phone on a Sunday morning at that hour, go you know what's going on. Not him, And that was pretty scary. And then after he came out and by the way, my husband was a sniper on that job.
To just say, it's like a date night.
His last job as a sniper. Actually it was date night.
Let's go arrest a serial kill. That's beautiful. Your relationship just rocks.
Yeah. So yeah, but the investigators, like, you know, we went because we were actually around the corner and up the street when we did the negotiation. We went right there and we went around to the house and honest to god, they were going over every blade of g in that fronty like it was just massive, nothing I'd ever seen. It was really those investigators did such a fantastic job. And it was even just looking at his photo before we went there. I looked at the photo, thought,
this guy looks so powerful. He was just very Oh, I don't even know what they were intimidating.
I've seen him in prison, any put off and or there was something. Yes, you looked and there's something strange going on there. There was that whole power thing and just the brutal nature of the crimes. But yeah, full credit to everyone that involved in it. And I'm glad Mohonk didn't fuck up.
Yeah, me too, we might be still there. It was a fantastic job.
Can you bring this to a closure. My first experience with Mahonk, and this is always said with the greatest respect, I think I was in homicide. He was in gang squad, and there was a job that overlapped and I didn't really know him. It was relatively early in our careers, and I'm on the phone to him and Mahonk in the steep negotiat his voice basically he told me to pull my head in and so that was waving the
red flag of the bull. So I up the ante and I think we're saying threats to each other, what we're going to do, blah blah blah. And then Mahonk just switched and went, I man, that's all right, okay, we'll do that. There was a toughness about him, but there was a softness about him to not a softness. He presents as this rough, tough, knock him down type guy, but he was a deep thinker too, or.
He is a deep He is a deep thinker. And I have to say I had a bit of a drama one day at work and I was really upset and I walked out of a meeting crying like a big blubber and it was a personal thing. And he came down to my office and he just opened the door and came and gave me the biggest hug and said, you're right, darling, you know, and just really Mahonk has a tenderness, yes, and when you see it, he really
does have a heart. Yeah that is big. You know, he's very very He's got a very emotional side that.
Yeah, that people don't see and he doesn't allow people to see. And his reputation preceded him, I think all over the place. Some of the stories I don't know if there's true, but my whole when computers come in, like what is this ship that's not going to catch on? And I don't know if it's true, So I apologize if it's not true. But it's pretty funny if it is. That he was fighting with a computer, as you would imagine Mahonk would fight with a computer and picked it
up and across the root. There problem solved. No, no more computer. Now can we get back to the typewriter? Yes?
Is there a constable who can use a computer? Get in here?
But no, I liked him. I like working with him, and I just I always smile on my face when with that first conflict and it wasn't personal, it's just okay, that's fair, all right, at least you stood up to me. Let's let's move forward now.
So and I think that, you know what, that's a really big thing. When you have somebody like that that can be quite intimidating. And if you have a bit of a before whatever with them and they can just say, okay, well let's get on with it now, that's amazing.
I thought, here we go. Because he was obviously senior to me, I get here we go. I've got myself into trouble again. But no, right, okay, I understand your point. Well, maybe we could do it this way.
Yes, And you know what the other thing is, I was a senior, comfortable, and I was the team leader. And the other three on the team were all sergeants, and at one time it was Graham White as well. He's also fantastic, and they were so respectful of me. But because I had more experience been in the negotiators for a longer period, I was made a team leader.
But just the work we did together and everything, it was such a great model and it worked really well and they were so respectful and I'm so grateful for that.
Yeah, I think when the pressures on on the sharp end of police, and when we say sharp end, I always throw this out because we know general duties. People that spend the career in general duties. They might have the profile or whatever, but we know the type of they do. They're the first responders. They're the ones that go in and don't know what they're going to face. But when you're working at negotiating stage, if you're not flirting with rick and just concentrating on doing your job
instead of making eyes at the tactical team leader. There's a lot of pressure there and everyone has got to that's when all the training, all the skill set has to really kick in. And it doesn't surprise me that three strong personalities, but they fell in the line on that because the job was so important. The job comes first. Yeah, it's not about personalities.
And I think going out to and working with the GDS front line with negotiation jobs, it was really fantastic for me too because I got back to the sharp end as such of policing and all the commanders were always fantastic. You know, they welcomed us in. They said, look, you know, this is what's happening. Da da da da da. And you know, I have to say one time I did say, look, this is not going to take too long because I've got a hair appointment.
I love, this is the real behind what's the issue. I know it's a bad siege, but I've got this hair appointment and that salon is so hard to get into it.
Yeah, so we've got to be out of here in forty five minutes.
Did you explain that to the person that was top of my hair? The person locked up. Excuse me? Do you realize there are other things happening?
That's right, Absolutely, it's worth it to everybody else for me to get my hair done.
Okay, well, I'm just saying, at least you didn't send Rick in resolve without any haven't got time to negotiate Rick going and get him.
Yeah, but you know what, so many vulnerable people in neg jobs. Just sorry, I'm digressing. I just remembered. One was that cremorn. This guy was threatening to stab himself and he was standing on top on the roof of a block of units, and we're in the block of units next door, standing out on a balcony, and I got that was the first negotiated there. I don't even think the tactical guys were there. And there was a young policewoman who was negotiating with him. So I went
up with her and I said, keep going. I'll just be here next to you. Da da da da da. And anyway, he ran through a plate glass window back into the unit and I said, he's coming to get us upstairs. I said, quick shut the door, you know, like close the front because we had the front door open. I thought he's coming up here. To get us, and we tried to shut the front door and the deadlocks on and it couldn't open it, all that sort of stuff. It was quite you know when I think back now,
and she was so fantastic, this young girl. And then the tactical team came and this guy said, you know what, I've called all my friends in the last three days. His girlfriend left him or something, and he said, nobody will talk to me. He said, I'll come out if you give me a hug. I said to the tactical blokes, I said, he'll come out for a hug. And I said, are you stupid? What's wrong with you? You're not going to give them a stick? I said, do you want to be here all night? They said no. I said,
I'm giving nam a hug. Anyway, he came to the door and I said, this is what's going to happen. There's all these guys. They've got black year on the da da da da, and they're going to search you and then you know, after that, we'll have a hug we can hug, and then you're going to go to the hospital explain the whole process. But they were mortified that I was, and I said, well, if that's what gets him out, that's what gets him out.
So I like that type of policing and thinking outside of the square. Like it. Yeah, you would have broken every rule that you were taught and but it helps resolve the situation. It's a common sense approach.
And when he came out, he sat in the police car, in the back of the police car and they were going to take him to the hospital. And I said, I'm not coming to the hospital with you, but you're safe and the police will take you and all that sort of stuff. And he said, he looked around, he said, all of this just for me, because you know, there are a lot of cops there. He was armed, the tactical team of their the nags, the GDS. It was
a big response. And he said, I can't believe that all of this was just for me, that you helped me, you know. And I said, well, that's what we're here for.
That's good if you can help people in that way. Because of that, there's some bizarre situations in those sieges, isn't.
There, And people get into a situation and then they just don't know how to get out of it. They throw the grenade in it explodes, and they go, oh my god, there's a grenade exploded. What do I do now?
Well, I think the role of a good negotia there is to do escalate when it's like that, because you can. You can ramp it up or take it take it down. Yeah, so it's a fascinating side of it. You did another siege while we're talking about as a negotiat the Caangy Siege. Can you describe the situation there because I remember that because it was such an unusual situation and a lot of layers to it. Yeah, it was.
There were three offenders. The main one was a guy called lead Beater, and he had a delusional fixation that he was setting up his own religion, all this sort of stuff. I think basically he wanted to suicide, but he couldn't bring himself to do it. He had a young gay lover who was Robbie Steel and who was much younger than him. And another guy who actually was who actually came out before I came on my ship for the next I didn't have much to do with him.
But they had killed people across three states. They'd gone from Queensland, South Australia, New South Wales and just gone up to people in campgrounds and just shot them dead for no apparent reason.
How many people did they kill? Do you recall they killed five people? Right, Okay, And that was in nineteen ninety three, ninety three, So the crime wave that these guys were going on, how long did that last?
I think it was about nine days across Queensland, New South Wales. They yeah, they just were crazy, just killing random people, just killing random people. And they took some people hostage up at Hanging Rock up at Cany and there are a couple of kids inside and Mike Willacy got on the phone to the For some reason, he was able to get through to the house phone, so we couldn't actually get through and he was talking to them,
which was a big problem for us. Yeah. Absolutely, And so what happened The tactical team flew up there and we actually did the negotiation from Sydney from the old cob in the Remington Building, which was the first time we'd done it at distance. You know, it was a couple of hundred kilometers. So we had constant contact with the tactical team about what was going on with the negotiations, and once again mohonk was one of the negotiators, and
he should have gotten accommodation for that. I don't think that he did, but he really should have because he did a fantastic job.
And so.
Leadbeater was fixated on killing himself and he said, all right, I'm going to come out now, I'm going to go in a blaze of glory and all this sort of stuff. And he come outside the house. They don't do that. He come outside the housing high behind a book because he was actually scared.
A big game.
Yeah, talk up a big game exactly. Anyway, we managed to negotiate Robbie Steele, his lover out. We said, you know, Robbie's got a lot to live for. He was getting a big compensation payout. He had a brain injury from the car ax and all this sort of stuff. And what was the most fascinating thing was that eventually led Better said, yeah, okay, Robbie can go. And we said you're going to have to. You'll have to tell him to go because he won't listen to us. So led
Better negotiated with Robbie Steele for Robbie to go. Is that bizarre?
It is bizarre.
And not only that these people had killed people, and when they were saying there goodbyes, they're crying so much emotion. It was just the most bizarre thing I thought at the time. On the one hand, you can be cold blooded killers and on the other hand, you're showing all this emotion about separating from it each other. So Robbie Steele came out Ledbetter eventually killed himself inside the stronghold and wrote a note and he said, you know, thank
you to us, to the police. You know, I really appreciate everything you did and all that sort of stuff, which you know, it's kind of like it's just bizarre, isn't it.
It is bizarre. And the things that you see and do in that role as in the gay Shader, How did it impact on you personally in those type of things, because the pressure pressures on, Like I know, like I've been to those sieges and you know, we might turn up as a tactical police and you guys are on the loud hailo or on the phone trying to talk these people out. And I've been at some sieges where I get so bored. With the negay Shaders.
I used to get bored.
Yeah, and you're laying there You're thinking, you're laying there with your rifle or whatever, and you're thinking, why don't you say this to him, because you're trying to fill in the time and you're hearing the gay shaders. And I know there's a set pary to cole these very sound reasons why you're saying things. But sometimes I felt like just getting up, give me the loud hailin may he have a shot at it. But there's a lot
of pressure. How did it impact on you personally after a job like that, You're on a high or it just drained.
Or yeah, I think just drained. And sometimes I think I did a job that went for well. It was a Monday morning. I started work, finished work, and at like six pm got called out and it went till about two pm the next day. We didn't get relieved. I was so cactus. But we had fantastic training. Norm Hazard set up the negotiators. Norm was just a genius or he is a genius of a man in the Cops legend. Just could think so strategically, he could think
sideways backwards in like he really was fantastic. And I remember very early on he told me to stick to my guns. He said, if the tactical blokes you know, give you a hard time, you tell me and I'll get up and for the rent, because you know.
He'd be good having Norman your Backpock.
Absolutely, because he would say, you know, the negotiators must have as much input into the resolution as the tactical team. The tactical team don't run it. The negotiators don't run it. It's done together.
Good advice, a fantastic.
Advice, and Norm was fantastic. We had great psychiatrists with us as well, so all of those things, the training, the psychs were all really good, but it was very draining. And I remember one time when Rick and I were on call.
Yeah, we went where were we going to spend Friday night?
Exactly three jobs in one day, and the third job was a hostage job at Crow's Nest and it was bucketing down rain and Rick said, oh, we've got a job.
You know.
He got the call first, and it's at Crowsnest hostage job. Da Da da da da. Michael Diamond was the psychiatrist and it was in a house and Grahame White was the negotiator with Belinda Neil Graham as fantastic as a negotiatow is so calm and I was a team leader, and anyway, Michael Diamond was there, and I said, whatever you do. The tactical team actually got up into the roof and above where this woman was being held hostage. She'd been she's been held knife point. It was very
hard to get in there. Anyway, in the kitchen, we set up a command post in the kitchen and I said to Michael, whatever you do, Michael, if there's they're going to fire anything, just hit the deck. Okay. He said what I said, No, seriously, just hit the deck. Anyway. Sometimes you go into houses and they're a little bit hot. So there's this set of false teeth on the kitchen sink, charming.
And then there's this box of chocolates on the dining table, and Michael's addicted to chocolate, as am I. And he said to me, can't believe you bought these chocolates. You know, it's like four o'clock in the morning. Everybody's cactus and he's munching on the chocks. And I said they were already here. I said, sorry, Michael, I should have told.
You they tastes so nice and different type of flavor but eventually got.
The guy out and he was very scary, that guy. But you know, the tactical team the next all works so well together. It was a good resolution. And that poor woman she yeah, I won't go into all the details, but she was fine in the end.
But it was terrifying situation.
Yeah, really scary.
Tell me how much because when I was at those sieges and I'm hearing what you guys are saying or communications, how much work behind the scenes understanding the person you're talking to. So I imagine, yeah, let's say I've gone off the rails, I've taken hostages. Do you then just do a profile on the person, get as much understanding about the person before you start speaking to them. What's a protocol?
Yeah? Absolutely, And also talking to the Sykes is really good. So Murray Wright, who's now the chief forensic psychiatrist for New Southwell's Health, great guy. And Michael also in the old days, got to think now Rod Milton Yeah yeah, yeah, going right back investigations, Yeah absolutely, So they were really
so supportive. So you know, you go back to them and say, Okay, this is what's happening, this is what they've got, this is you know, their background, get as much information as possible, and sometimes talking to the family members of the offender really helped. But then again sometimes it didn't because you'd talk to them and say, look, anything strange going on, any behavior recently? Oh no, no, no, nothing wrong. He talks to the wall. But apart from that, there's nothing.
You know, it's just like hard to get that purely objective.
Yeah, so you've got to sort of discern the information that you're getting sometimes because yeah, but I think with the support of the Sykes and everything really helped. And also talking to people like Norm. I would ring Norm up and say, look, you know what about this, this is what's happened data daat are and he'd say, right, well, I think maybe this or that. Talking to people who've got a lot of experience, and talking to the tactical teams as well, getting their input and advice and and
all that sort of stuff. Really yeah, really, it was, honestly, Gary fascinating just thinking about these people. And just also I speak very quickly.
I had to really blow it down.
Train myself to have a very monotone voice that was very slow and data ut so all of that sort of stuff you really got to concentrate on what you're doing, and.
The stakes are very high too, Like did you ever have a situation where you've said something and the reaction you're thinking, oh, no, this is this is going to end badly? Were there times times with that?
Yeah? Absolutely, we did have some funny situation like that. There was one negotiator where we were because we used to say, we're here to help you, not to hurt you, and he said we're here to hurt you, not to help. You said, next, get him off.
Okay, that's a faux pa. That's a bad one.
Yeah, kind of. Yeah, So just really well, I think the other thing is with the negotiators. You have four negotiators there, so as the primary negotiating, you always have the secondary right there because you know you might be able. You might be about to ring the person you forget their name, and they air to the phone. You go hullo, carry Gary, you know, because you just you know, they're just there to completely and utterly support you. That's the
only job. Your throat is getting dry. They're there with a bottle of water before you have to ask for it. They're just concentrating on you and everything that you need because everybody knows that pressure is on.
You need that support. I had an experience trying the negotiape with negotiators and I lost them negaotation. I was a crime manager at Chatswood and the person, a male, had stabbed his partner and abducted some kids and said he's going to kill the kids and disappeared. I was at home. I got called, so I came into that and I'm running that investigation. We didn't know where he was. We had the car circulated, we put an amber alert out,
and all the things that you do. And I thought it'd be a good idea to get the negotiaters involved in this because at some point in time we're going to find him. But trying to negotiate with the negotiaters. No, when you know where he is, then we'll call someone out. I'm arguing the point, but I lost the negotiation battle with the negotiaters. I got off the phone and said, did you get him out? Boss? I said no, they
out negotiated. But when we did eventually find the person, he'd gone in the state and he still had the kids, and we got a phone number and I was on the phone to him, and I still remember this. I've been up all night and I'm speaking to him saying along the lines of what you're saying. Look, the lady's not dead. It hasn't gone too far. We can yeah, we can sort this out. All the things that are obvious that you say to de escalate. And we're talking
away on the phone, and why we're talking. We're trying to get a fix on where he is an organized tactical police to come and callding off the area, and I've said something and he's getting agitated. I'm trying to de escalate, and then at one point in time he said something, No, I'm not listening anymore and slammed the phone down, And before we got him back on the phone, that was the longest five minutes I've ever had in my life. I'm just thinking, oh my god, is he
killing the kids now? And then we just kept bringing eventually picked it up and it resolved and we got the tactical police. I was on the phone to him coming in and grabbing him. But that was my one experience of pressure. And I look back at my career, and you know, if we've had a long career, we've all been in those situations at a high risk or whatever. But I still remember those five minutes and the boss, a commander, I won't mention his name. He's exited the
exit the police. He's come in because I tried to call him out when it was all going on, when the lady had been stabbed, the kids had been abducted, and we couldn't find the person that's threatening to call the kids. And he said, we'll call me if something happens, and I'm thinking, well, fucking something. It's happening right now, mate, happening right now. He's come in for the morning because we've been up all night and walked in and I'm in my office just after that phone call, and he said,
how's it going, Gary? Just fuck off?
Yeah?
Yeah, Yeah, that was the That was the pressure. So yeah, you guys doing it time and time again. It had had to take the toll, but I would imagine you become better at it too. The more experienced, Like in anything you do in life, especially policing, you would be more confident when you pick it up because, Okay, I've seen this situation before. I've heard this situation before. Yeah.
Absolutely. And also sometimes some people are very easy to get out, so we were sitting on the top of the Fairfax Tower at T. Laura when they used to, you know, print the papers out there, and this guy was threatening to jump off and it was like three o'clock in the morning. We're hungry, so I said, and the rescue squad were there, and I said to the GDS, can you go and get us some macas. So they brought the macas up and this guy kept saying, I'm hungry,
I'm hungry, I'm hungry. So we got the macas. We were sitting in front of him eating the macs and the smell the macis is wafting over it. He said, can I have something to it? And I said no. I said, well you can if you come back, come back here. He came back for the macas well what they were available. That's it. Mark Hutchins, I don't know if you know. Yeah, he went to a job where the guy was threatening to jump off a railway bridge and he actually saw that the guy had empty packet
of Winnie Blue or something. He said to one of the gens. First of all, he was in the surf and when his page went off and back in the day of pages and his wife's calling out to him the surf mark Mark, and everybody thought she was saying shark.
So that would have been because he lived at Capra Cabana. I lived there and see him out in the surf, it's probably there exactly.
So he goes in his board shorts and something goes to the job and anyway, so he sees this packet of when he said to one of the do it go do my glove box, get a packet of smokes out and so he lit up a cigarette. The bloke was back in like two minutes because he wanted a cigarette.
See there, Like we talked the pressure and seeing here laughing, I can just makes me just smile thinking about those type of moments because you can't invent them.
You can't invent them.
And that's where people talk about policing. It's a hard job. It's a hard job, but it's rewarding in the most bizarre ways.
Absolutely couldn't write it. Fact is stranger than fiction.
Fantastic. Look, the time has flown. I've got all my notes here and I'm not getting through any of them.
Carol, I'm telling too many worries.
But we'll take a break and when we get back we're going to delve further into your your career. Counter terrorism because that was a big thing in your career. Also, dignitary protection in Sydney Olympics, because that was a very fascinating time to be involved in placing. And I've got to say it was the best three weeks of my career. Had so much fun.
I probably signed your overtime.
I knew there was a reason why I loved you. All Right, we'll take a break and we'll come back for part too shortly excellent,