The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side of life. The average person is never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome back to Eye Catch Killers. For part four of
my chat, we've retired Detective Chief Inspector Pamely Young. If you happen to miss the first three episodes of this chat, you might pick up on there's a bit of two in them throwing between Pam and I. Not only we work together for twenty years or so in homicide, we also were in a relationship and lived together for quite some time. So there's a bit of familiarity.
Is that the word there?
So this last part, Pam, we're going to talk about we've got a sense of who you were as a detective, and we're going to talk about an investigation that's had a big impact on you. It's been very publicly discussed and that's the Scott Johnson matter. Will break that down
that investigation. I just want to say, and I mean this, and it's important that I get across when we talk about and I think I mentioned it at the introduction that I thought of myself as a dedicated, driven detective, but I couldn't keep up the intensity that you displayed when you're on an investigation. And I say full credit to you, Others might say, well, there's something wrong with you. I think it's something you should be proud of. To give you an understanding of the work that you did
on the Scott Johnson matter. I just want to relay this incident or series of incidents. It was I saw you on a Friday afternoon. I was working out of the Unsolved Homicide on an investigation at the time. I saw you a Friday afternoon in the Unsolved Homicide office. Were on the same floor and said goodbye and walked
out the office. I was going through an interesting time in life, didn't have much to do in my life, so I came back into the office on Saturday to work on some investigations, even though it was my day off. And I see you still at the same desk, still wearing the same clothes. On the Saturday morning, I gone, Pam, what are you up to? What are you doing here? Have you gone home? And you said no, I've got to get this done. And you didn't even have time to look up or talk to me.
You just kept typing.
So I spent the day there. I think I gave you my lunch. I felt sorry for you. I bought my lunch in because it wasn't many shops open around headquarters.
On the weekend.
And I said, now make sure you go home like I've seen you work overnight before, and I knew you were capable of putting in the twenty four hours shift. Then sadly, I get back there on Sunday walking there's no one else in the office, but there's Pam still sitting at the same desk, still working on the same Scott Johnson manor the effort that you're putting into that, and I got cranky at you. I said, you're a lunatic young what are you doing here? You've got to sleep,
and you've gone, I'll go sleep in the car. I can sleep in the car and the car park, which we've done quite quite often. It's not healthy, but we've done that just to get an hour's kip. And then about lunchtime you were annoying hell out of me, and you were you were remarried at that stage, and I didn't want to just physically drag you out of the office and drop you home, so I said, look, I'm even going to drop you home because you're not driving or your husband's going to pick you up. And I
didn't leave until you left that day. And I think, so, you're not good at maths, but you know, probably forty eight hours straight working on that investigation.
Yes, I think that's a slightly underdone number. But I just want to pull you up on something you've said a few times now about my intensity is more than yours. That's not true. You were so intense. We were equals equals at a high level equals. So no, I wasn't more intense. What strength you had was an ability to
switch off. My strength was holding in there until the job was finished done, and then I'd luxuriate, luxuriate in nothingness, whereas you were extremely intense, the same as me, but with an ability to switch off and be the dad and attend to practical things. But you never your weakness was never being able to luxuriate. Auste is a word that comes to mind. I think my mother called you that when she first met.
I didn't know what the word meant. I'm not sure it telling me Garrett me, I just said thank you.
So it's yeah, so, I look, thank you so much for your compliments. But yeah, I only ever felt that our intensity was the same and and worked well for the community.
Punish themselves. But yeah, yeah, So I raised that.
With the Scott Johnson matter. And do you want to just talk us through your involvement in the Scott Johnson matter what it was about? Right?
Well, it started very simply with a love story between Scott Johnson and another UNI student at that stage, Michael Noon. Michael was an Australian citizen. They met, I think it was in England and Felling fell in love and Scott moved to Australia to live be the partner of Michael. On the brink of Scott getting his Australian citizenship, he was originally from an American He was an American citizen.
On the eve of Scott receiving his Australian citizenship, he was he was found dead over and naked at the bottom of a sixty meter cliff at north Head on the I think it's the western side and that was in yes, nineteen eighty eight. So that case was given to me in twenty thirteen.
Unsolved.
Yes, yes, once I was in. Yes, as a cold case you in.
Your capacity is working unsolved. Was had look at the had to look at the investigation.
Yes, I was the boss of all active investigations in the cold case. So it was given to me after the police Minister had had made a call to the boss of the squad and wanted to prioritize a reinvestigation
of Scott Johnson's death. So that I understand. That came about because Scott had an older brother, Steve, and Steve loved Scott, and he also though had he was a wealthy man, well connected in America with the Kennedy family and the intellectual and political elite there, and he of course had hopes that his brother's death, which was unresolved
at that point. It had there was a suicide finding by the coroner, the first coroner, and then there was an open finding, and then Steve was aiming to have a third potentially a third coronial inquest and certainly a rigorous, more rigorous investigation into Scott's death. And he went about that by asking for a meeting with the police minister, which the police minister gave him. I was a little bit surprised by that because I knew other families are the next to kin who had asked to meet with
the police minister and never had any luck. So I guess it was a message, a strong message to me and my boss and other you know, the hierarchy at State Crime Command that this man had influence.
Okay, so on the on the back of that, and just let me clarify, we've unsolved homicide because I've worked there for a short time myself, and they understand the workings of it. There's a lot of unsolved investigations. We're talking hundreds, I don't know the exact figure, but unsolved suspicious deaths matters that need to be reinvestigated. So on the back of that representation, you started looking at the death of Scott Johnson and you prepare the brief of evidence and went to inquest again.
So when the Scott's death came to me, I was also a little bit surprised because I'd been asked to update the policy we had about which cases of our list of over six hundred unsolved cases, which cases are done before others or based on solvability factors, And my boss had asked me to write this policy clearly treating
all victims as equals. So when I at the same time I was asked to take on this Scott's death as a priority, I was resistant to it on principle of all victims being equal, But anyway, I got stuck into it again with a good team. What then happened was a phenomenon to me. I hadn't seen it done quite this way, and it had a little bit of, I think, an progressive American media approach, which was joining
forces with mainstream media and other interested parties. So gay rights lobby groups joining with the Johnson family in moving towards a larger investigation and labeling Scott's death absolutely as a gay hate crime, whereas I hadn't determined through evidence or facts that it was necessarily a gay hate crime.
I was looking at it as a possibility, but with that theme or concern I call it a theme, but most definitely a concern in the community, particularly the LGBTQ community, that deaths of from that community historically so retrospective concern that there were some cases that were left unsolved through neglect of the police, intentional neglect of the police, or even being covered up by the police. So what I saw happening was this joining together of these interested parties
which ended up having a lot of weight. So the Johnson family with their connections mainstream media, and then also LGBTIQ media and gay rights lobby groups, all very articulate with their concerns and heartfelt and passionate.
And I think both you and I would acknowledge what you said that science, whether it's even just unconscious pass but some investigations in the past probably weren't done well.
I mean, the whole the whole start of overlookd king my minority groups is and the gay community was that in the past, was it was actually legal to be homosexual. We can't forget that's not a long time ago. As shameful as that is, it's not a long time ago. And even when the law changes, it doesn't mean the public's view has changed and police and everything exactly, and police are drawn from the public. So their concerns were
valid in a general sense. It's when it came down to specific cases, I guess, and scooping up Scott in that as a gay hate crime. But it was a very clever campaign and mechanism to keep it in the spotlight. So they were over over three hundred originating media stories on it, over three hundred I mean, I don't mean a story and then passed on multiple times. Over three hundred originating him then passed on, so thousands of them there were that became. I think our number was about
eighty eight. Particular cases were of concern, but just to I guess illustrate how significant Scott's death became as part of the campaign, was of the let's say three hundred and twenty media stories, one third was about Scott. So of eighty eight potential unsolved victims, one third of all articles on Scott. So I think that's just a clear demonstration there. So there was a lot of a lot of pressure at work to deliver, to deliver well and
to explain to the bosses. It's the only case I've ever known that the Police Minister took personal and specific interest in He was being included in emails that were a dressed to me from Stephen Johnson but CC to the Police Minister. I've never had that before.
You know how I would push on some of the issues I had with the bearable thing. And yes, yeah, we had the march on Parliament four times to give Parliament a minister to get interested in them.
And if I understand or remember correctly, I do believe that was one of the families of which there's a series of families with the serial nature of that job, who had asked to meet the minister. Yeah, and I think they I think they had been unsuccessful success yes, so yes, and others like that. So anyway, I guess it was what it was. That's what we're dealing with. So where that goes then is there is a third inquest, which is the only other case that's had a third
inquest is the Lindy Chamberlain case. You may remember that way, So it was quite a phenomenon to have this third inquest, and the third inquest determined that Scott had been the victim of the gay hate crime.
I think it's we probably should inform the listeners to the person by the name of Scott White has been convicted of the manslaughter of Scott Johnson. It's my understanding that he came forward with a confession in twenty twenty three out of the blue, and that when the Supreme Court judge handed down the sentencing, he said that the matter wasn't linked to a gay hate crime. Is that correct my understanding of it.
That is correct, yes, yeah.
And another interesting point on that particular conviction, the confession, and this I believe because I was following it. I believe it came out in court that the confession, the information contained in the confession was already readily available to the public through the media.
That's right, there weren't. There wasn't an element or any elements that could not have been read in the media, which is a bit unusual. There's usually holdback which only the killer knows about. So look, but it's had such a long and arduous history that matter and bore Scott really deserves some rest. So let's hope that the conviction
is safe. That would be really good for everybody. So in the mix of all that with what I've said was my understanding of how cases are prioritized, my personal view, and the policy about all victims being treated equally. In the mix of all that and all the bad publicity about how terrible police were, I was asked to do an interview with Late Line on the ABC. It's a current affairs program, and Emma Alberici was going to be
the interviewer on that particular night. I was. I agreed and was keen because of the bad publicity that I thought I could bring knowledge of us case.
Explain it, explain the situation, put it, put it.
Face to the bad media messages and yeah. So uh so I agreed and did that and it was yes, so we went ahead. Now, of course that was all approved right up the hierarchy and to the you know, the head of the media unit as well. So I did. I did the interview, and I was told the the Commissioner of Police was relaxed about it, and and then the mood changed. So what I had.
Can I just give some speaking on that. I was up at Port Macquaria. I was working on the Tyrole matter. But my parents lived up there at the time, and I watched watch that interview that you did with my father, who was up in the public service when he was working. He sat there and he said, wow, so impressive. I was sitting there, going, you've nailed it, young. I think the way that you came across professional and you were just giving an objective view on it. It wasn't you're
against the Scott Johnson matter. You were just explaining the situation as you've explained here. And I remember the feeling within the police the next day. Everyone was happy with it, and I thought, well, well done, You've clarified what there was a lot of misinformation about following that interview. So you come back in the work. Everyone's happy. Then what happened.
Yes, So what I had done during that interview is it was outside what had been authorized, but I didn't think it was as bad as it turned out to be. So I'd said two things. One was that all victims are equal, and I'd said that in my view, the policeman mister had cow towed to the family, allowing Scott's case to be the number one in the office to take priority over hundreds of others. Those two things. I thought, all victims are equal. I thought that's what everyone believed.
But apparently that's not an acceptable phrase.
Well if it's not, that should be and that should be the cornerstone of what policing is about. All victims should be traded equal.
And the cow towing I knew. Well, it's a bit like remember earlier in now in my interview of view, I remember with the Darwin job my style. I came out and I said, I was asking, did anyone you know I would have been send if I was a man. Does anyone here have a spare penis one they're not using for a while that I can borrow and go and do this job. So similarly, because I had been at the meeting with the police minister, who gets invited there,
I was wanting to be impressed. But I'd come away from that and I was saying around the office which is my style about the cow towing police minister, but nonetheless is what it is, and we get on with the job. So the day after the late line interview, when the mood changes seriously, is the police minister, which I would think because his police minister and much more powerfulan me. I thought it would be water off a
ducks back. I thought he wouldn't like that Pam has said it, but he would see that only Pam had
said it, and it would be water for ducks back. No, he took real exception to it, and I was to be put in my place, which I was, so that Yes, there was a reaction, such a strong reaction to that interview by the stablished groups that I mentioned, who who for all the right passionate concern they had stood together, and the mainstream media suggested that I was incompetent and homophobic, which is still sitting today a devastating just.
Let me finish, sorry.
Devastating for someone like me, like me, with my views about the quality of people, to have that vile allegation to be labeled by that viole allegation repeatedly. So, but that would have been bearable. We do a lot of tough stuff in the job, don't we. But what happened was it was my total political naivety was some and only after the interview did I did I piece together that why am I being ostracized? Because we I use the word elite, but I don't mean it above street cops.
You know, we've a clarified that earlier. They're the yes, there's a yes and an executive type of position. So into that the void, if that's the right word. But
left by my political naivety. There was no support for me internally, no support and that's because I worked out too late that ambitious people working at our elevated level above us, ambitious people would be relying on selection by the government for executive positions, and and very ambitious people who we who we were controlled by, we worked for, didn't want to be seen as supporting someone like me who had made this comment about a police minister.
I can bring clarity to a lot of it because I was there seeing what was going on. Firstly, I thought it was just such an injustice where it was being touted that you were in competent investigator, and I think, you know, and let's fast forward the Scott Johnson matter.
It's been resolved.
I dare say a lot of it it's been resolved, is a lot of the work that you did in looking at the investigation to start with, and I don't think that should be ignored. But yeah, when people were saying that and the fact that our organization didn't back you one hundred percent disgusted me. The fact that with the different groups attacking you for being homophobic, I think I'm in a position to offer an opinion there given
the fact that we're in a relationship. You're so far from homer phobe because it's not funny and that every victim should be treated equal. I don't think you did anything wrong. The only thing that got you into trouble is you criticized the minister and an ego was upset having said that in the office, and this is what
I lost a lot of respect. I'm going to say this because I've sat on it for years and I lost so much respect for a particular person that I went and spoke to what was happening to you, and I said, it's an absolute disgrace how Pam's been treated over this matter. You know the quality of the person she is. And in response to this, the person said, look, I know she's good.
That I was.
Told by someone above me that don't throw your career away protecting her, and what type of person says that. I just looked at the person. I was just disgusted. I just said I think I said I'm disgusted that you would say that, but that was the attitude, and I lost a lot of respect for senior police over the way that you were hung out to dry on that. And I know, I know the effort that you put into the Scott Johnson matter, and I know you didn't
have any biases. You were just saying what you thought fair and you were bided by what was said do the investigation. Okay, I'll do it, and you do it, did it to the best of your ability. So I apologize on behalf of yourself backs paks for how you were treated.
Do you blend it was right? That apology back, Thank you for all those words of support, and yeah, but you don't have to apologize for them.
Well, I was part of an organization and that really it just sickened me that we could just hang one of our own out to dry like you were hung out to dry on that one. I thought it was despicable and I know the impact it had on you. I know on the back of that, I'm just sort of moving forward a little bit here that you decided you're going to leave the police as a result of that.
I sow a simple answer, though, of course, the process is much more complicated. So the answer is yes, in that I was emotionally distressed deeply by the betrayal, the internal betrayal by bosses. I believed I was in an ethical contract which is absorbed some shit, tough days, hard work, and for that you are in a system of support. There's support there, so that no longer existed for me. So simply put, though it's much more complicated, I agree with you.
Yeah, well even and I know there was times when you took time off and I caught up with you, and I was trying to talk you into coming back into the police because we couldn't afford to lose people like yourself in the police and genuinely not just looking at for your interests. The police needed people like you in there. And I said that to senior police, I said, what are you doing letting her leave? What are you doing, like, let's make it right, let's get pamed back in the
in the job. And there was no interest in it. It was just it's just And yeah, I lost a bit of love that I had for the cops on the way that they treated you, and it was shame.
I lost my love. I was in love with it and I lost that. But I would like to, if it's not going to trigger too much, refer to what was done to you, and I don't think it doesn't represent as well if this just becomes a loving So I don't know, but I would like to go there.
You say I deserved it hit the course.
Switch because some people will think, oh, we just give them their privacy and say so, but it seems as appropriate time. What do you think do you blame Look.
At young I know when we've discussed it, and I'd probably discussed it adnause him on what happened to me. But yeah, I'm happy for you to raise it because you knew what was going on. You know the politics, you know the dynamics, you know who I am, and you know what was what was going on. I dare say what what happened to me? And of course people if they haven't listened, it's a whimterial matter where my
my career came to a crashing end over that. And I was criminally charged, convicted, appealed, and convicted for the horrendous crime of recording the conversation on my telephone and the place that had listening devices in there. Anyway, but that aside as you can see, I've let it go.
I just I don't think it would have happened if you were still in the police, because I expected my colleagues, my peers to stand up for me and stand up strong for me on what happened, because it wasn't right the way I was treated, and I didn't have that, didn't have that support. I sat on Level nine, which is out the front of the headmaster's office basically for
three months playing whale music and meditation. Is sitting in that room, I think not one hand, one finger I could count on my colleagues, my peers that came up to visit me, and the one person that did I could see him looking down the hallway in case a boss walked past and saw someone talking to me, and I just thought, really, is that that's what it's come to me?
Yes, I'm surprised you have faith that if I had been in the job, perhaps you still would have been just for advocacy reasons, because what I learned through what happened with me is we we we wielded a lot of power we can take could take away people's freedom. We were entrusted with the most intimate confidences of families and uh and we thought we had some internal power, but we we didn't. We were fodder and the those above us and those ambitious ones with our eyes on
the big price, they hold the power. So Jibil and I would have advocated for you with everything I had, but I don't have the faith that it would have made any difference because the power was held above us. And your example of what you did to try to give me practical help and stir some spine from the hierarchy for me, you know what you did and you failed.
But I'm more a.
Bull at the gate on situations like that, and I think you would have. I think you could have rallied support that I didn't happen. And maybe you couldn't because there were people that supported me, and you know it wasn't all lack of support, but the ones that supported me were victimized. Yes, just disgracefully. So yes, And we say this, and let's just put on record we both love their time in the New south West.
Yes, and still best career because well.
I'm hoping will end on that, but I want to if you were thinking and moving on, I just wanted to say the basic something really basic, but big message in it is, apart from you know, the hideous way you were treated, the saddest thing is relationships that you built up and the reputation, fearsome reputation and always relied upon experience from the bosses who asked you to do jobs they knew they asked you specifically because they knew how tough you were, peers who came to for advice,
but most said the staff who loved and respected you and needed you there that those relationships got were broken because of how you were treated. That's the saddest thing. But let me finish. I can tell you're about to talk so podcast. But just the bare facts is if I died of a violent from a violent crime, I would want you on my case. So just make a note of that in case that happens. But I know absolutely all of those bosses would want the same.
Yeah.
And that's as simple and as clear as it can be.
Yeah. Well, and from a homicide to tech this point of view, there's not a greater compliment than someone to say, well, if I got murderer to investigate my murder, it.
Would be nice if you turned up just before I got murdered. But if it's after.
Well, it might be a way to get back in the cops.
Invite me back. Now.
The things that we talk about, and I think it's I've talked about it on this podcast obviously with other people, but you get it. You know who I am, and you know the organization, and you said about broken friendships and all that. I set high standards with friends like I support and I've learned a lot since I've left the Cops. I've met some interesting people, colorful people, characters, but loyalty is utmost and I've still got friends friends
in the police. I won't say I've lost all the friends, but there were some people that I thought would support me no matter what the cost, no matter what the risk, as I would then didn't and that that hurt. That hurt, and I, you know, maybe patch it up at some stage. I've moved on. I'm enjoying, enjoying myself. But I think there comes with a responsibility of being a friend. That
you're a friend not just for the good times. You're a friend for a bad times, and you're a friend that it might cost you, but that's what friendship and loyalty is all about so anyway we digress. This is me dissecting you. You flipped it on me, so regrets about the way you left, like you offer. You gave me a lot of advice and sorry, I'll talk about myself one more time because you know I like to talk about it.
I just sit back. Oh, shut up, cross my legs.
You supported me, You supported me when I went to court. You're always there for me. And there was others that wouldn't. Police were told not to turn up. They even they even had a protection group turn up to protect the witnesses that were going to give evidence against me because of my crew, which was my mother and my kids that were going to take out witnesses. But you were there and you publicly supported me, as did Nick Kaldos, Paul Jacob, Matt Moss, people that I respect. With what
happened with what happened with you. I just thought it was sad that the way that it ended, because it just seemed so unfair what your career had stood for, how hard you worked, and then you sort.
Of left, faded away. You went off in an explosion. No one could miss it. I just faded away.
Well, well, I thought you would burn an explosion. But you did just basically fade away. And I say this, I honestly thought, I honestly thought you would be and this might be you know, you say unrealistic. I thought you would be commissioner at one stage you had the operational skills to run investigations, work on the investigations. You had that, but you had a of carving through the management that I've never never seen and was.
That an end? And look at the results?
Well, I was never a good judge of character, look at my relationship.
Can I put in a plug for Karen Web?
Yes? Please do?
Please do so good?
Okay, we're talking about we're talking this is.
A podcast, not a private conversation. We're talking about the current New South Wales Police Commissioner, Karen Web and our guests on the Eye Catch Callers podcast. Retired Detective Chief Inspector Family Young has asked to put in a plug for Karen.
Web, which which is how terrific it is that finally there's a woman in the top top job that she's been an exceptional manager over many decades. She's in that position with a lot of experience and she's a very nice person. I've noticed she's been criticized by her appearance in the media, how she looks or how she speaks.
Honest to God, wouldn't the public prefer to have a highly competent, experienced officer there who might not be across the latest media image than someone who's very media savvy and doesn't have the rest isn't the package? And I would like to think if anyone in the job listens to this, that they kind of think of why she might be being criticized and support especially the women out there. But it shouldn't just come down to that, should it. No?
And I'm glad you spoke up there. I've been watching and I've done a couple of things on the media of current current investigations, and it was sort of fed to me like the carrot was dangled there for me to attack Karen Web. And I didn't want to attack Karen Web. I thought it was unjust some of the criticism that she was getting and my observation, knowing the organization as it is, I could be wrong. I'm looking from the outside, so I'm saying that, and I want
to clarify that before I say this. It's not no inside knowledge. I don't have anything to do with the police. But I wonder if she's getting the support from the people around that, because I feel like she's it's almost like she's been set up to fail on some of the things.
Well, we've seen that happen before, and we have talked in our matters about literally the politics at that level. And doesn't mean to say every day they're in there plotting against each other, but honestly, it's such a big prize now, it's paid very well, there's a lot of status and networking around it. It does seem to get vicious there, and we learned that earlier through someone we both respect. Nick Cardas, is a good example of that.
So what a sad state of affairs if Karen is vulnerable to that sort of thing that she's certainly not a vulnerable person, but you can't do the or but alone.
Well, I never work with her in my career, but people that I respect have said said good things about her. You're saying good things about her, and I take it that. And if you've got the commission, that's a good person, like inherently good person, a person of integrity.
I think that.
Carries so much, so much more reading to whatever you want what I'm saying here, but having someone with some integrity, Yes, that position is so important. You're running the police, you would.
Think it's essential as a police officer, because she's still a police officer. You think if you think it's essential that police are ethical, that they have character, that they are decent, than our commissioner of police who has those characteristics, surely that's a good choice.
So let's hope we're all winners. If she's doing a good job and moving the organization organization for.
It, and if there's any sexism misogyny involved in the criticism, for my god, there'll be hell to pay. Honestly, as a country, aren't we passed that? Didn't we learn something?
We should be way past that, way past that.
Okay, we look back at our careers and I think you'd share with me you enjoyed every day of it. It was an interesting time. And absolutely no regrets about taking our life down the path of being career police officers.
No regrets at all. No, it's such a thrilling experience and it's so satisfying and purposeful, and I would really recommend it. And there are some very good working conditions and the pays decent, So for all sorts of practical and adventurous reasons, I really would encourage people.
Well, I'm exactly the same. I think, if you want an interesting life, join the police and you're going to get an interesting life. If you throw yourself the policing, that's going to open up doors and you're going to have experiences that you never never thought.
Would be possible.
And you look back at your life, you look back at our careers and think, did I really do that?
And so many things. What saddens me today is that police are really struggling to recruit people, and I know not just in New South Wales but across the country and some regions or some commands they're equating seventy percent understaff, and that just perpetuates the problems because the people left there are going to have to carry the lad What can we say, as people who have been there, done that, come through the police career and we're still standing and
we look back at it, why aren't people joining the police these days? Or what can we do to encourage people to join the police.
I don't know the formal research reasons, though I do know, for instance, the military is suffering as well I wonder is everyone after some sort of office intellectual position. I wonder if that's part of it, not so much physical hands on Maybe all the scare tactics used by the media make people think you life is threatened every day in the police, which it is not. So yes, I'm at a loss.
I think if people understand policing, because they probably see that, they'll see detectives on high profile cases, they'll see the uniform police. But there is so many different things you can do in policing.
Yeah, the variety, Yes, and you get to pitch yourself against experiences and challenges that you would not get in any other industry, any other profession, and so yes, you develop all sorts of skills, and it is.
A very.
It does require a lot of intelligence to do the job. People mustn't forget that because you are communicating and convincing and winning over lawyers and convincing judges of the evidence and things. So there's a it's just well, well, it uses every part of you.
Yeah, I think that's fair to say, and I always look at people that, And I know, prior to joining the police sometimes if I was working in the building industry, I didn't feel like going to work. I can't remember that in policing, like there was times there and I think we've all experienced this. When you're a young detective, you didn't want to take a day off because you didn't want to miss out on the excitement that was there. And I'm sure that's the same for uniform police or
tactical police. There's so many things, so I want to shout out because it just saddens me that we can't get people in policing. And let me tell you, and these are two of us that have been through and yeah, our careers didn't and the way we thought they did, and we're still saying we love the job. Actually I am not at court criminally charged like it didn't end
but buttons for punishment, but we still loved it. So yeah, and I hope maybe the recruiting, maybe they've got to start advertising and then explain what goes on it and put instead of these statue bosses up there doing the media, at least show the junior police that are out there doing the actual work and giving them some exposure and people can aspire to be those type of people.
Yes, well, I think they stopped the average police officer doing any media stand ups after you, after your experience and my experience in the media. So I think that's why the higher end bosses are being seen more regularly now.
And I think the higher end bosses and again this then, dear me to it's their own personal ego too. They don't want people other people that are actually doing the work speaking to the media. Now that'll go, oh yeah,
he's dubiling again. But I honestly believe that, for the life of me, I cannot see why someone that's been given the responsibility to run a murder investigation, I you, a detective sergeant or an experienced detective senior constable, can't be trusted enough to then look down the camera and speak to the media about about the investigation. Because there's one person knows more about the investigation than anyone else, and that's certainly not the boss. It's a person running
the investigation. So maybe that type of thing they've got to look at to encourage people to.
Aspire to join the place. Well said, thank you On that.
Note, Where what do we talk about now?
Something light? Please?
Who else do we.
Want to attack, support or whatever? Life outside the cops. How did you feel when you've got out of the.
Cops, lost, confused, vulnerable. Yeah, I didn't realize how much being cop was in my blood because I've always thought of myself differently. I like the arts, I love studying philosophy, I being a woman in working in areas where you're basically alone anyway, I not other many other women. You you do already think or I thought of myself as
separate to the machinery and the club like nature. Yeah, but when it was no longer available to me, those absences were tangible to me, including one thing took me a while. I don't know, I overthink everything, but that was good at one stage. But you know this, I became aware of there's just something not right in the in the day, there's something missing. And I've named some things just now, but something I couldn't name until I
worked it out. It was testosterone. So it is an incredible It was an incredible discovery to me that the working in male dominated environment for so long had had a physical presence that I no longer had. Yeah, so that was it. I mean, and I don't mean I just yeah, I don't mean a sort of demonstration of testosterone anyway. I mean, I mean just just that that beautiful difference between genders and all the spectrum of genders that that might be.
Yeah, okay, well I've asked that question with a lot of guests on here, and they've never raised testosterone.
What do you miss?
So that's why I know that I'm a little bit different.
What do you miss about police?
What's the question again?
Testosterone?
But I think being different does make you a better police officer too, And like just having a different view on things. And you're talking about you studying philosophy and you put me onto that practical philosophy course in Surrey Hills.
I failed.
I didn't fail.
I didn't get the fifty.
No, I didn't file. I was busy.
Now I didn't file. I finished the course. But I got a lot from that ambitions. Now, what do you want to do with your love?
So so I'm just a social justice type of person. So I've always I've had some shame around my country and what we do with refugees and asylum seekers. I've always thought we could be more generous. So my little contribution to organizations that support those people in need, So just through meals or conversational English or helping with bureaucratic forms, explaining how our infrastructure works and government works and things like that. So I find that very satisfying. I'm sure
I get more out of it than they do. I'm not doing any high level anything. I'm not convinced I could ever work for a man again. Uh. I travel a lot. I travel a lot. I love exploring my curiosity, which got me on the job primarily, really and sustain me is still with me. I love learning about other cultures and meeting interesting people. I prefer people to be interesting than nice.
That's I think we've both followed that path.
But bottom line, and lots of people fudget once they're out. I mean, there's a lot of a lot of us become hermits. The when you when you deal with life and death repeatedly, up close in all its detail and color and smell and angst, and that wonderful positivity that the families can have, that courage they share once you've been up close, once you're in that that's in your face. It's at this station impossible for me to find anything as satisfying. And I think that's just how it is.
That's not a curse. I think that's a sort of privilege that I've been there, done that helped people, had thrills in my own life. It's thrilling. It developed me. It made me a much more articulate person, a much more compassionate person. So given me wonderful, wonderful things, and it's irreplaceable. But everything has to come to an end. If what was done to us wasn't done to us and we would be looking, you would we would have
to be out of the job at some stage. So these processes that we're going through that I'm trying trying to explain in some way, it has to be faced. Yeah, yeah, well it.
Was almost the way that we we operated in our career. It was always going to win some way.
Yeah yeah.
And I never saw you or I marching out with a band plane as they do some people attire just for some reason. I just didn't think that was going to happen.
No, no, no, I.
Think I've you've articulated very well what policing meant, and that I just say what I was doing. I still felt like as a good person because I'm doing something each day, and that's when I left struggle with that.
Yes, that is so purpose.
I might be a fuck up in every aspect of my life. But look, I'm doing some good. Yeah, and that made me feel better and I missed.
That purpose and other things have purpose to even being a good father, which you still are in the pizza well and July don't need you, but I hope to be. I'm a good aunt. I hope I am to twelve nieces and nephews whenever they let me in their busy life and things. But satisfaction of what we've done, what we had the privilege to do, the honor to do, is irreplaceable. On that note, could I just say.
I never could control you, so go on, young, Yes, I just want to you can't have this job.
It's my job.
The other heart wrenching thing, but heartwarming too, is just how close and how much I loved and love my team members who always worked so hard or always put up with me making them work hard, whichever came first, whichever worked, and just yeah, just amazing efforts. The community should know they have amazingly passionate experts out there, but those experts need to be supported and they need some time off occasionally. Yep, and and yeah.
We obviously enjoyed, enjoy their policing, and we know we're just passing it on what legacy. I think you taught me that that's what legacy you leave in a position. What's the legacy you've left, and you just pass on that bat into the next group of people. And we know that there's people out there working. They're probably smarter and harder working than us that are out there doing what we were trying to do during our career.
I don't know about the smarter and harder, but they're definitely.
They wouldn't be that they might be, all right, I want to I want to finish this on a serious note. I've really enjoyed the chat. I know it's been a working progress getting you here to talk. So many people have asked me when am I getting Pam on the on the podcast. I think the way you represent policing is something to be proud of. I'm proud of the fact of how you represent policing and I hate breaking it down like you're a good police officer because you're
a woman. You stood out in any field. But what a great role model. And that's what saddens me that when you left the police, because you were such a good role model and I know so many policewomen that looked up to you and what you did, and you walk to the booty of your own drum. But you did it without compromise, you did it with integrity. So congratulations on your career. And I'm not just saying that because it's you. I congratulate everyone that's put in a proper,
proper career in policing. And I think it's pretty good. And I don't want to get too emotional here that we've been through a relationship. We've had our ups and downs, but we're still friends, and I think that's a really good thing.
Yeah, it's a terrific things, and I'm sure we will to the end. I feel solidly that's the case. And yeah, so I need to know when you get cremated, where do you want your ashes spread? I think that's it's relevant in this time.
I'm not sure how I'm going out this way, how I'm going to go out at this stage, I don't know.
I might just wander off and no one will ever see me again. But no, it is good that we can have the friendship and we had that intense relationship and good times and I know you've always got my back and I've got your back, So I think that's a nice message to leave it with.
To for sure mutual respect absolutely and dare I say love Jubilae.
Thanks for coming on. Pat really enjoyed the chat. Cheers.
Thanks so much, Bebe.
Pam Young.
We obviously know each other very well and it's always scary having an next come into a podcast studio to talk about life in the past. But I hope people will listen to the podcast understand why she was such an impressive police officer and such a shame that she's left New South Wales Police. I think it it's a lesser organization for it. On a personal note, I just
think it's great. But two people who have been in an intense relationship like we were that came to an end can sit down and have a chat and still have each other's back.
So probably the fears were unfounded. She didn't crush me too much.
I hope people don't look at me differently after seeing how Pam speaks to me.
But what a great role model for a police officer.
I don't think there's anyone better than retired Detective Chief Inspector Pamily Young.