The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective sy aside of life.
The average person is never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might
be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Today's guest was addicted to heroin for twenty two years. He didn't like himself, and he hurt people close to him. The person he is now is so far removed from that person is hardly recognizable today. Our guest, Nick Midgley, is in the studio to talk
about crime, addiction, love, relationships, masculinity, tattoos, and recovery. Nick Midgley, Welcome, to I catch killers.
Thank you man, thanks for having me.
Now, Nick, you're addicted to heroin for twenty two years. It's a long time.
Yeah, it's a fair whack, man, it's a fair whack.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah yeah. How long you been cleaned for? Now? About four and a half years, well clean and sober four and a half. Yeah. Okay, So it's no alcohol, no dressing at all anymore.
Yeah, And is that and we'll talk more about the stuff you do with hope and health.
But is that part of it?
If you're going to kick one, you've got to kick the other or you just fall into bad habits.
Look, I don't think it is necessarily for anyone. But I believe that anyone that's got any sort of like, you know, history of you know, of trauma and using any sort of vice is to sort of cover up any you know, any undigested living experiences and stuff like that. I don't think you can use anything to sort of like block anything, you know. I think that some people are just sort of running up for a little while.
It'll be too hard for a little while, and they can sort of return to some sort of you know, social drinking or social you know, you know, social stuff, but.
I suppose it's in eight in you if you've got that addictive personality or you're relying on it. I've seen people not through work. People I know that we're addicted to drugs. They kick that, but then they become alcoholics. Yeah, that becomes their crutch. Or I've seen others that go from drugs and then find religion.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely absolutely. Look I mean with me, like I don't think I've ever had so much of an alcohol problem, and it's something that sort of doesn't really sort of like you know, you know that they don't really enjoy that much, you know, you know, but like I just can't guarantee my behavior on the alcohol, you know,
like I do. I do some stupid stuff that you know, like I act out of alignment to my values, you know, Like you know, I've had a history of you know, cheating on my partners and you know, all gambling and you know, just just just doing stupid stuff that I
would never do sober, you know. So like you know, and also like you know, like I don't think there's been any if or very rarely have I put a needle in my you know, after a period of like you know, substantial clean time about like you know, having sort of alcohol or something something alcohol.
I see people that say, you know, alcohol is not a problem, but every time their life stuffs up.
Yeah, it starts with drinking. Starts with drinking.
And now I'm fine and you can speak, speak to the person the way they conduct their life, the way they go about their business perfect. Then they get on the bender and the world turns upside down against that.
Yeah for sure. So I mean it's just that simple for me. My life is so good now. Yeah, I'm not about to have a drink, but I don't want to risk it, you know, not over a beer, you know few and if I ended up in the position I was in four years ago, start drink, you know, to.
Start all over again. So tell our listeners who Nick Midgeley is.
What's your what's your your.
Background and brief of your life, and then more.
Dissect It's pretty complete question. So who's it? Oh mate? I look, I mean at a at a general level, I was just a kid from Melbourne that sort of you know that they grew up and gravitated the drugs really quickly. And at the time I had no idea why, because I seemed to have come from a decent family,
you know, a decent, decent area and stuff. You know, my dad was a good provider, you know, spent spend times at good schools and you know, and and there was no from an outside perspective, there's no no idea why it happened, you know, and I sort of lived in that sort of confusion, like I didn't really know why. But yeah, later on from doing you know a lot of work from on myself, you know, like you know, it turned out because of you know, my father was
essentially completely absent my whole life. And you know, my mother had her own traumas. You know, she went from a really maternal mother to a complete emotionally shut off mother. And as a kid, you know, when when you have an experience like that from you know, your maternal maternal parents, when they just emotionally shut off from you, you know, it has a really you know, traumatic effect on you.
You know. And and so I mean I've got you know, so I walked around essentially my teenage years with like you know, all these abandonment and attachment wounds and stuff like that, and you know, self medicated that stuff with with with heavy drugs.
Okay, that's how you got into it. Yeah, it's interesting you say. And I've heard you in one of the many talks that you've done, you talk about your mother's trauma when she was a kid, and that into generational trauma, how it carries through because you don't fully understand that, so you can stand stand back and look back and yeah, right, that's what it's about. But it's such formative years as a child.
And if if you.
Said your dad, dad was absent but providing, and then your mum shut down emotionally, it can can play with a kid's mind.
Yeah he can. It definitely does. It definitely does, and it's on a real deep level. And that's the that's the thing that that I'm glad that I know that I've got to go through it as well, you know, because my oldest son will also have similar stuff, you know, with me raising him on my own and essentially having to grow up with him, you know, and so he's
going to have similar stuff. He does have similar stuff, a bit different, but like you know, like it's good, it's good that I went through because now I can understand it. I can help him through his process too, you know, it's yeah.
It makes sense, and you clearly you look back at your life and you're dissecting your life and it gives you. It gives you an understanding that you don't necessarily see when you're going through it, but and knowing the impact that you can have on your job. Now, I'm going to ask you up front the tattoos, mate. What firstly, when when did you when did you decide to cover the body in tattoos?
Man, I've got my first tattoo at thirteen. It's something that's always intrigued me. You know. I had a friend of a friend's older brother drew some crap on us, and then I do a lot of cover up work and committed myself early and then you know, it just got that stage where I just I reached out tipping point where you know, I went over halfway and then like everything else started to look naked, so I just went went all out. You know.
It can become addictive, Yeah I think so, Yeah, I think so.
But but all my stuff, like you know, almost us my own you know, my own sort of like you know, design stuff like my tattles is actually the hardest as well, you know, so like I've give them an idea and you draw it up for me and stuff like that, so you know, it's not like a you know, it's not like a stencil job that I went to Bali and you know in two days that's sense of stuff on me to everyone else has got to you know, it's good advice. Let's get advice to anyone listening. Don't
get a tattoo. But it's not a good idea. You might think it's cool, it's like coming back in a big tea. Yeah for sure.
Sure that's covered in tattoos Like that, people would react to you differently, like you're a big, strong bloke. You're covered in covered in tattoos, and I would imagine you get and because it's a podcast, you got the neck tattoos, the full sleeve tattoos. Do you get different reactions from people or they assume you're a type of person?
Uh yeah, look, yeah I think I do. I think I do sometimes, but like I generally, you know, it generally doesn't bother me so much anymore. You know, I used to really sort of take things personally the way people would react to me, and you know, like I walked around my whole child would assuming I was getting judged, you know, whether I was, I wasn't. You know, I lived in you know, I lived in fear of what people thought of me. I need a validation from other people.
The reality is mane you know, like I you know, like I mean, I liked tattoos. I work for myself, I don't, you know, don't it's sort of met up to anyone else's standards.
You're not working in the bank, all right, No, that's right, that's right.
You know, is there a story to them? Yeah? Yeah, I mean yeah, you know, like it starts off with like, you know, all sort of you know, you can see sort of like a criminal pass on my back and stuff like that, and sort of now I sort of merge into more of a spiritual thing. Okay. We all evolved. Yeah, that's rights, right, we all evolved.
Okay, let's talk about your your childhood. First up, where did you grow up?
I grew up in Melbourne, as in the city of Melbourne.
Yeah, and when you got into drugs early and I think I heard that you were you were using heroin at thirteen.
Or yeah, yeah, injecting, injecting, Yeah, yeah, you're still at school? Yeah, explain how that it's mate. It's quite funny. Like, actually, I I haven't been diagnosed with add or or anything, you know, but I always struggled at school. And my oldest got diagnosed with a d D. And when when I took him to the pediatrician, he was rattling off all the all the symptoms of a d D, and they all resonated with me, every single one. I ever
really know what it was. I didn't know what it was, and like, you know, and I'm not going to get diagnosed now because like I've learned to live with it and around it, and like, but you know, I struggled to digest information school. Like I used to go to school. I used to feel dumb because I couldn't I couldn't really understand what was going on. Like I could read,
I just couldn't digest the information I was reading. Uh. And when I found Heroin, you know, it's like just my mind just relaxed and I was able just to
like focus on what I was doing. Like, you know, I I honestly thought that like I'd found the holy Grail you know of like you know, of of of of substance, and yeah, I thought, if I can use it, because I thought people were like you know, you know, like you know, junkies were like you know, predisposition to become junkies, and it came from like, you know, really
shitty backgrounds and stuff like which I didn't. I had a bit of ego even back then, you know, And and for a long time, I dabbled, like I didn't. I didn't actually have a habit till I was, you know, fifteen or sixteen. Like I dabbled, you know, I used it regularly for you for quite a few years, you know, and I was able to get like, you know, quite a lot of school work done from from and you
could still function. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah mate. Most people didn't know I was using until until about sixteen, you know, like you know, my my, my mum and my dad found out because I ran away from boarding school and they went up there to grab my stuff and empty my closets and stuff, and I found using paraphernalia in there in my school blazer. You know. But like you know, I think most people didn't know because I had just
so much shame around a lot. I didn't told people and talk to people and stuff, so most people didn't know that, you know, that that had any sort of like you know, drug problem outside a bit of a choof problem or something until I was about sixteen.
Okay, I'm interested in the mindset like you would have even at that tender age, you would have heard the warnings about hero and you know, you had one hit and you're hooked and all that. I've spoken to a lot of people that think, yeah, that's for the other guy. I'm a bit different, I'm a bit special. I can control it. Is that that the thought process you I.
Think, yeah, it was what I had. But actually, you know, from now working with a lot of other people in addiction to it's a really common thing, you know, like it's you know, a lot of people, a lot of
people feel like that. A lot of people feel like, you know, made the amount of times you've heard about someone on a you know, on a Bucks party or something like, you know, have a you know, someone brings out a crack pipe and you know, and they have a few, you know, a few puffs on a pipe and mate, you know, you know, a year and a half later, they've lost their families and stuff like that.
I've heard them say they're chasing that high again. Yeah, so you for it, but you're chasing it and before you realize that you are what you thought you never would be.
Yeah, and that was a really scary because you know, that was a really scary time for me. I think I think I was about fifteen, you know, like you know, when when I realized it got me. You know, like I had this at this moment where a friend of mine.
I was talking to a friend of mine about like, you know, not being asleep well and like, you know, you know, I was feeling a bit nauseous lately and stuff, you know, and he's going, mate, it's because you're hanging out like that's that's that's a smack it's got you know. I was like, oh fuck, yeah, right, Okay, maybe I've been pushing a bit hard. So in my head I thought, you know, I'll just stop, you know, and then when I actually tried, I just couldn't.
So virtually, and there's a cautionary tale the people that go down that path. You think you're not addicted. I think you can step away. It's just a matter of I'm choosing not to at this stage. But then before you realize that you're addicted.
Yeah, it's that choice. Yeah, And then you actually you actually try, then you realize, like it's got a it's got a I mean, Heroin's got the physical pool. It's got obviously the physical withdrawals as well, but it's also a mental pool as well. And the second the second the mental pool. The mental pool triggers the physical pool, you know, so like you know, if you think about it, all of a sudden, your body starts to crave it and withdraw from it. You know.
So breaking that down, you're saying, saying that mental drive to to have a hit, Yeah, then you're physically reacting it because it's in your mind.
Yeah. Well, for example, though, it took me like two three years from my first shot to develop a habit. Now, if I have a couple of patatine for it, or anything with a bit of opiates in it, like my receptors just go crazy and I start like, you know, we're drawing straight away, you know, like you know, like I don't take any opiates because like it's you know, like of my name, my you know, all my receptors are so sensitive to that stuff now, so I'll just stay away from it. All.
Okay, how did you afford it at that age?
Well, I mean I because I had a school uniform. I mean in a few different ways, they had a school uniform. So someone that was moving quite a bit to all the you know, all the crack houses back then, you know, there's a gap week the Hollywood, the Regal, the beach house and stuff that was just sort of all around some kilder and stuff like that. And that'd just get me to move a little bit because I
had a school uniform, none whatever suspecting, you know. And and and so I did a little bit of that sometimes on weekends, you know when when when when the working girls were getting getting pulled up and robbed and stuff like that, you know, the whole money for them for just a little rock here and there. You know, you know, when I when I was under eighteen, like I used to do a lot of crime, used to do a lot of breaking enders and stuff like that.
And but yeah, look you know, but I was you know, like you know, I did all my my crime pretty much under eighteen, you know, because like I really, you know, I was so fun I was so fearful of that that life, like I was in it because I had a habit. But like I was so fucking terrified the whole time I was. I was using at that age when I was when I was seventeen, I got taken over to Sicily by a mentor. He showed me how to work and taught me a couple of trades and
stuff like that. And I didn't necessarily get rid of the drug problem, but like I was able to sort of, you know, live live a live a life of a working working man, and you know, and then drive down to rich mendal footscrade, go get my drugs and come back to you know.
Well it's a normal life and we'll go further into it. But it was almost like you were a functioning heroin addict. You were doing some work as you got older.
Yeah, as I was seventeen.
Yeah, before we leave your childhood, so you're a young fifteen, sixteen or whatever. And when you said the working girl, so sex workers and they were, you were holding some stuff them.
You get a bit of it was holy money. I was holding money for them and so they wouldn't get robbed. And then they'd give me that, you know, when they got on, they broke off a little rock for me or something like that. You know, So I mean, it's just stuff like that. Look, I mean, just like there's a couple of things that just happened. Is you know when I was a kid, you know, like you know, like you didn't trust anyone. I remember, like you know, when we used to do like breaking inns and stuff
like that. You know, one of us was sort of like you know, you know, standing there, you know, stolen car at the front, and every one would sort of go in and you and grab what they want and stuff like that. You know, but neither of you trusted either of you. You know, Like I remember, like, you know, if I used to go into the house, you know, there was a wallet on the kitchen table, I'd grab the cash and that would just be fair game for me going in and stuff like that. And among fooves. No,
that's right, that's right. And I remember this one time, you know, like a little coey, you know, I used to do a lot of these with you know, like we just didn't trust each other, and I felt something was like fucking was off, you know, and we put
up at seven eleven. Because back in the day, when you get your prepaid credit, it's got can you go in and get some credits and get on you know, was like, yeah, I'll go in and just give me the keys, you know, because I just assume that he's going to drive off in the car all that stuff and all stuff, and he's gone show me your pockets, you know, so he like I knew he was going to run off, and he knew I had stuff in
my pockets. You know. No, I just had this fucking that was a big realization that just living a fucking really lonely life where I didn't trust anyone around me.
Were you're still with your family, we're still living no none.
At that stage, my mom kicked me out I think at thirteen or fourteen, fourteen, I think, and my dad at fifteen, you know when she she kicked me out to my dad's and then my dad not long So where were you putting your head down? Uh? Well, a
lot of time the mentor took me over to Sicily. Yeah, you know, but I the stolen cars as well, just just wherever, you know, or or just stay up all night as well, you know, like just but yeah, you know, there's always like there was always you know, like some sort of little little halfway crack house I could stay out too, and like, you know, he gives upon a little bit of a rock, you know, through one of your urns or whatever.
It's a pretty treacherous and dangerous world at that age, like to be hanging around in those those environments.
Yeah, it's you know, the reason I was so scared is because, like obviously because of my age, I was really vulnerable. You know, I was really vulnerable because I mean, you know, when you when you're around drugs like heroin and back then is when when ice was first coming out, was coming out from the Indonesian they used to call it shaboo and it was first coming out, and and you know, when you when you're that age, you know,
you're really vulnerable. Man. These people are really fucking desperate, you know, and like you know, and you know, I mean when I when I was a bit old and I'd go in and stuff like, I didn't have that sort of same fear around it, like people then sort of like stand over me. But people saw me coming from a mile the way back then, you know, and you know, just just you know, certain stuff happened.
Just just did anyone try and steer you in the right direction that we'll talk about your mental before we get on to get on to your mental anyone like family, relatives, school teachers, anyone, just grab hold of you and go mate, what are you doing?
Mate? No, I'm not really, I'm not not in the way of like I mean, my parents were just lost me, you know that. I mean that day, their own shit going on there, their own separations, and they had all their own stuff going on to I think they really worried about my siblings as well. I think that sort of the chalking up as a bit lost lost calls. Let's just worry about what younger siblings, older brother, younger younger sister.
So who's this mentor that took you over the sicily? What was that relationship? He was a bit of antory of someone that comes from Sicily.
Yeah, it's been a bit of a knock about around Melbourne. See, you know back in the days when you know, when when when you use smacking, no crim trusted you anymore. So he sort of got like his run was over so to speak when I met him, and he is just you know, essentially since it became a user. But like, hey, he thought school was really important and he knew that
I was doing it, and you knew that I was going. Okay, that so you know, I met him when I was about sixteen, you know, and he's going, mate, look I'm going to go Sisly to get clean, you know, and he's gone, I want to take you. Let's just finish the school had about six or seven months of school left or something, and I said, when you finish your school, we'll go overseas, you know, and I'll take you over there.
And he's gonna make you or you won't live till you're twenty one if you live like this, you know. And so, okay, I didn't actually think he was going to do it, you know, like I know what was in it for him? Nothing, just no, no, I mean look, I mean he was one of the guys that used to get me in a sort of run dope around for maybe had a bit of a conscience, and you know,
he felt like, fuck, I've you know, I've. It didn't start me on the year, but my habit certainly fucking went right up because of what I was doing for him. And you know, the guy that he was working with, you know.
So and so he was he was addicted to and he wanted to go clean himself up.
But go back.
I assume he's from there originally or yeah, family over there. So he said you finished school, yeah, and then I'll take you over the sicily Yeah and okay, tell us about that.
That experience that was that was an incredible experience. Man, that was incredible. That's I mean, I learned they got such a big they've got such a hard work ethic over there. Like when when I when I first went over there, like he was a really hard man. You know, he was a really hard man. And when I first went over there, I really struggled because you were so hard on me, and like you know, I was so
like you know, emotionally mentally weak. Then you know, like a day's hard work for me, it seemed like a fucking death sentence. You know what type of work we do mainly farm work or like you know, I worked as a as a labor and a steel factory and stuff like you know, and but like the are the long days, man, like like you know, worked very hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
especially especially on the farms. You know. You you you arrive on on site or on the farm, you know, just before the sun's comes up and the second it's light enough to be able to see, you start working and you work until you can't see what you're doing anymore. You know.
Did that you get off the drugs when you were over there?
Yeah? Yeah, Look, I mean I still drunk. I had the occasional bit of coke and stuff like that, you know, but you know, like I was so so broke, you know, like you know, like if I if I got on the cozonly because someone that had it would give me
a couple of lines or something. You know, Like I was earning about like you know, one hundred year old a week, you know, when I was seventeen, it is about what equivalent of one hundred and fifty bucks a week, you know, and I work in my ass off too, like you know, so that was like the apprentice wage back then.
And there's a did you did your family worry about you? Or did you have anyone back here going?
It was a one way ticket, yeah, because my dad paid for the ticket. He gave me a one way ticket and that's no shit. And when I actually wanted to come back, he didn't let me. Easy, mate, You can come back when you when you earn it, you know, as okay, yeah, you.
Know, And how long did you spend over there?
Three years in total? Yeeah, Yeah, yeah it was. It was on and off a bit. I came back a couple of times and relapse and quickly went back over you know, like I just yeah, you know, and then it just got those stage where you know, I thought I might live here because like you know, I just just couldn't do Melbourne, you know.
But yeah, when Okay, so how old you have?
Three years?
Seventeen you're looking twenty twenty one. Yeah, you've come back here, so straight back to Melbourne?
Yeahs, I went straight back to Melbourne. I think I think it lasted a few months before I got back on it. And then when I was can I I stop you there?
Nick, Just tell me the mindset there, like you've gone to all the trouble of going overseas to tidy tidy year ACKed up? Yeap, you've come back and you've yeah, you lasted for a couple of months. Were you lying to yourself for deluding yourself and just going ah, I'll just have a taste.
And I'll be right. What was nah? I think I think every every time I came back from sicily, i'd come back with the intention not to ever use again, you know, And I feel really strong when I was over there. But Melbourne, Melbourne itself is for me, it's a really dangerous city for me to be in, you know, like a a I've like I've had a shot and like every you know, every toil in the city streets. Yeah,
I know the streets. I know all the areas. I know who to look for, like and the thing is for me to get on now up where I live, you know. I mean there's all the stuff. It's heroin as Ayes is all that stuff there. But for me to go get on up there, I would have to call up a few people and to find out who's not doing too well, chase it down or you know, go go like you know, bump into a couple of sort of like rough looking people and you know, try to sort of wheezer my way in a bit and stuff.
Whereas in Melbourne, I'll get one bad thought, I know exactly where to go, and I'm going to get on quick, you know, and so like you know, there's there's not much of it. Yeah, there's not much buffets. You know, if I ever thought of using now, the process of actually getting on on is big enough for me now for some bit of sense to to slip into a little gap and just go.
I understand what you're saying, Like, if it's there readily accessible, Yeah, it's easy. You could just have this thought in your head and you're on it straight away. The environment you're in now, it's not not that simple. So how long did you say? In Melbourne?
For? Not long? Not long? I and I get myself in a bit of trouble. What was that about? Between between them? I made of mind and me. You know, we went this idea that you know, it's a little bit of coke and a bit of psychosis. You know, we flushed it and you know, and we owed a bit of money. We had, we had money coming in, but it was a while away and I just needed to get away for a bit, you know.
Talk us, talk us through that, because I think, so you're using and then all of a sudden you're becoming paranoid or yeah whatever, and you've flushed. You're thinking the cops are coming through the door.
Yeah, may I was. I was never going to be a successful drug dealer because of moment, you know, because I use I used drugs too heavily, you know, and so maybe if I've got if I've got a fucking bunch of coke. You know, I'm not just gonna sit there and wait for people to buy, like I'll be using it while before they come.
So when you flushed that, you're obviously going you've got some. You got it on tick and you add the money back to the people you got it from, but you ain't got the drugs anymore.
Yeah, yeah, well you had money owed to me too. I mean, that wasn't the only reason. I just I had to I had to get out of town, just because my whole life was just fucking falling apart, you know. So I frond of the people I had the money to. I said, look, I'm not going anywhere. I'm getting out for a bit. I've got I've got this money coming in.
I just got to just just fucking trust me. And and so, and I asked my mom, who kicked me out, as I said before, as a teenager who moved to Byron Bay, probably to get away from me, to be honest, And I beg there, I said, Mom, I've just got to get away from here, you know, like my life's just fucking falling apart. And and she said that, you know she's going, well, if you come up here, you come up on the on you know, on the condition that you enroll into this rehab up here, which is
the Buttery my dad like, and she's gone. They got like a six or seven month weightlist, so you got to you gotta call before you come up to get on the weight list, and then you've got to call every week when you're on there. And and so I called when I came up, and then yeah, I had no intention to actually actually go there, you know, like I just thought, mate, it's six seven months and a time for for me to get my shit together where
I can come back, you know. For for whatever reason, I always felt like I had to be back in Melbourne. Like I didn't think I could actually break away from it. I didn't think I could break away from it, you know. I didn't think I wanted to either, you know, because when I first came to Byron Bay, I didn't see it as a beautiful place it is now. I saw it was a really fucking boring place that like weird
people went and stuff. I was. It was my perception of it because I was so I was so like, you know, yeah, you know, in the city of Melbourne. I was so like you know, like I MESSI into that lifestyle and stuff and and mate, look, eventually I stayed there long enough that made that that place. Something happens in that place, man, Like you know, even today it's it's not my little spiritual home. And every time a lot sort of like apploads on me, I always
end up going back there. And Mate, just over time, just over that like six month period made something shifted him here, you know. And a friend of mine who who I met up there, he ended up being a training partner of mine, you know, and he went through that buttery program, you know, and he stayed up there after that. And he said, Mate, look, just won't you just go for five weeks? You know? And if after five yeah, but he's going in after five weeks. If you don't want to go, you call me, I'll pick
you up. I'll take you the airport. You can go
back down in Melbourne. And Mate, I respected him enough to you know, I thought, yeah, I can do five weeks, you know, Like you know, I was clean, I was sober, wasn't hanging out, so I thought, why not, you know, And you know, I think he knew that I needed five weeks there to be able to like to be able to like, you know, make an informed decision, because I mean I went there and I had people throwing me under the bus but not doing my jobs, and like, yeah, in my head, I thought I was just a bunch
of fucking dogs. You know, I fuck this, I'm not staying here and just winges and like you know. But like after five weeks, like you know, I had this realization because I already had a son at that stage, you know, I know my son was you know, three or four years old. How old were you? I was twenty when he was born, twenty one when he was born.
Okay, so you got to kick with you with the lady or no, no.
Were Yeah, look we're only lasted when when he was born, like wh only lasted about a year year and a half. And the only reason we have to probably go that year and a half was because you know, she'd been pregnant with him, you know, like we were, you know, we were fuck will never go three other at all, you know, you know. But when I was at when I was at the rehabit, I knew I had a kid.
I had to say that realization. It was about four or five weeks in you know, I thought, Okay, well that's that's my time that I promise you know this this guy you know, you know, but like I've got a maybe I could do something better with my life, just maybe, you know, maybe maybe there's fucking something else I can do.
You know, were you working, like where was the money? Not when you're in the program, but where were you making your money from?
All that was in Melbourne? Yeah, in Melbourne I ended up working as like a pave and a block layer, and they were on all the the you know, on the Union sides and EBA rates, and I was mad. I was making really good money as a really young kid, you know when I say young kid, like as a twenty twenty one year old, twenty two year old getting an adults wage and yeah, yeah yeah, from working in sicily from like in one hundred and fifty bucks to you know, bringing home to grand a week, you know,
was that going to drug store? Yeah, all of it, yeah, all of it back then, Like you know, I don't really nice apartment. I was renting and stuff like that. But back then rent was only like twenty fifty or three hundred bucks a week, you know, you know, and like I was on my own, so like, you know, I wouldn't even cook. I had to eat out every day. You know. My outgoings were about five hundred and six hundred bucks a week, and then every other cent went
to you know, went to backo on drugs. Yeah. Yeah.
When did you get into your fitness side of things?
Probably twenty twenty twenty one, you know, twenty one, I mean like yeah, I mean I had little, little little moments or you know, all three, you know, but like yeah, twenty I had my first five at twenty one, you know, came from it. At twenty you got got into boxing. Yeah, yeah, it was a boxing Yeah yeah.
It doesn't sort of quate the type of training you need to box with putting shit in your body, like yeah.
Yeah, how did you how did you juggle those?
Because they're sort of polar opposite.
Well man, not well, And that's probably reflected on my boxing career as well. Like you know, like I just you know, like I could fight, you know, and I'd be willing to fight and stuff like that. You know, So like you, I had a natural bit of aggression. You had enough ticker and balls to be able to like, you know, if I hold your hands hold my hands
up mixed with people and stuff. But man, like you know, you know, you know, if I was training or fighting an eight round fight and stuff like that, you know, like you know, there the the you know, the my lastle factors would come back for me. You know, you know I feel a bit tight around my last fight. That is probably my most important fight to my last fight, like I trained for it in rehab and heroin overdose.
Like before I went around where I couldn't I couldn't walk for two weeks, you know, and like you know, like I got myself fucking to a stage where I came out of rehab to two weeks sparring out of rehab, and then I jumped in and had a fight. And you know I went in there after after thirty seconds because I was smoking. I was smoking for thirty cigarettes a day, and reality, my whole body went all lactic
and stuff. You know when I when I walked out a five, and though like I lost, and and I lost against someone you know, like a tough, a tough journeyman. You know that I knew it was going to press me. I had to be at my fucking best at and you hadn't put in no. I mean I put in as best I could, you know, But there was another there's another realization. My last old factors fucking just got something.
I started to because this this is one that this is this is an experience that I had through my boxing that was real pivotal for the rest of my life. Like I had, I was sparring Barry Hall for his for his fight against Paul Gallant, you know, and and Barry Hall's trainer and the promoters and stuff like that. I said, if you, if you, if you're willing to spa and for his fight and stuff like, we'll get you on
the undergard. I was like, yeah, beautiful, Like you know I was, I was looking to sort of get fit, you don't have a fight, and you know, it was a good as a fucking beautiful opportunity, beautiful venue and stuff. So I thought, yeah, well, you know, why not. And then a couple I think it was about a week a week before that fight, I got offered an Australasian title shot in New Zealand if I'd won that fight,
you know, and uh in Itzona. It was only a few weeks after the fight I had, you know, and and I was like fuck you because in my head, like when I finished a fight, I want to bend after, you know. That was my reward system, you know. And and I was married at a time, and uh and I won that fight on the undercart of the Paul Gallan Barry Hall fight. And my wife, my then wife, she asked me, she's going, what are you going to do because we had plans to go have a few
drinks and around. You won that fight, but you got another shot in two weeks time, two weeks time, and she said, what are you going to do? You're gonna You're want to drink. You know, you have a couple of dreams, like yeah, we'll just go after a couple, you know. And uh so we did, and you know, we gotta, we've gotta. We've got a bag of coke. And I finished the bag. And this was in Melbourne's at Margaret Cordreina in Melbourne, some miles stomping grounds, you know.
And then I went out, Man, I've got an eight ball. I found a couple of fits and you know, and and I went back and I put an eight ball of coke in my arm. After not fucking one hundred and fifty needle marks in my fucking ar because coke on your last you know, fifteen minutes, you know, and I had it through. I just kept on fucking booting up my arm. I remember my wife came out of the room like six hours later after a sleep, and
she looked me out. I was fucking leaning over the fridge and she's just going She wasn't upset, like, she wasn't angry, like she's just just again disappointed. She's not even disappointed, She's just like, what the fuck are you doing? Like, you know, what what what is wrong with you? You know? I mean I look, I was just like, oh my god, who am I? What am I doing? And anyway, so I still took the fight over in New Zealand. But I remember I remember warming up for that fight. It
was an Australasian title shot. You know, it was against a tough New Zealand Like I knew, I knew I had to be my very best, and I was so fucking disappointed in myself and I'm warming up for the fight and just thinking, fuck, you really let yourself down.
You know, it's this sabotaging behavior I have my whole fucking life, you know, Yeah, and I made them work for you know, I think it was like three or four rounds before it got stopped, you know, but I made them work, and like you know, it was you know, I was competitive in that fight, and I thought to myself, Fuck, you know, you fucked that up for yourself. You know you could have won that fucking fight. And you know you fucked that up for yourself. And like, you know,
I thought, Okay, that's happened. Now, I'll chalk that up as a as a learning experience, but never again in life. And I'm gonna I want to sabotage that stuff, okay.
And I take what you're saying there. It's a metaphor for life and something that you can learn. And I think I get into a bit of trouble on eye catch killers because I love talking boxing stories, but it's just it's fascinating. But I think it is so many valuable life lessons to learn because you can't cheat it in the in the boxing ring. If you've taken shortcuts, you're going to get found out in the boxing ring.
And if you could have that realization in life, we're not just looking at boxing, We're looking.
At the way you approach your life.
Like if you're taking the shortcuts and you're not fully committing, you're going to be found out. And that's is that the lesson that yeah you got in that situation.
Well, yeah you'll be fair found out. In the boxing ring, you get found out. But like you know, in the rest of life, you know, you just don't. You just don't get to experienced life that well. You know, maybe if you're going to start a business in the second it gets a little bit harder you back off. Men, know, you spend all your money on like you know, the business has failed, you know, and every business that I've
ever had has only done well after that. A little bit of pressure that you feel or you know, if you jump into a relationship and you have one foot in and one foot out in that way, if it doesn't you know, you know, you're the first of argument. You're just like, oh fuck there, somehow I never really loved her anyway or whatever. You all you do was robbing yourself of like, you know, a good experience.
Yeah, I see what you're saying there with a relationship that you're not giving it a real go. But if you don't fully commit, you ah, well it just it didn't work out because you haven't haven't committed to it. But yeah, in the same same with with business. So all these these are lessons lessons in life. So for the naysayers on eye catch killers that we talk about boxing all the time, that's because there are some some valuable lessons to learn. So when you when you see that,
do you you would have been disappointed at yourself? That was that was a chance to progressing something you're obviously passionate about.
Well, yeah, I mean, look, I mean boxing for me, I mean that would have been my limit. You know, if if I had won Australian title, on Australasian title, you know, I would have been wrapped. You know that that was my like you know, like I want to stay titled. I was happy with that, but like I wanted to I would have loved to win a national or an Australasian title. That would have been, you know,
something I would have thought I've really overachieved yet. That would have been you know great, you know, but my boxing for me, I trained myself pretty much or you know, you know, my last few amateur fights and pretty much all my profiles except for one. For me, it was it was just this fucking escape from myself.
You know, it make you feel better about yourself, like doing doing something where you're trying to take some pride in in what you're doing.
Yeah, it wasn't even it wasn't even so much the external stuff. But I think, yeah, I think it was nice to get the pats on the back from people. I think it was, you know, But for me, I
was so tortured mentally. I didn't realize this at the time, you know, like that, And the only time I wasn't dreading the past or fearful of the future was you know, when I was fucking boxing, you know, because when someone's in front of you trying to hit you, you know, like you're not focusing on all the all the all the shameful things I've done in the past, or all my doubts are having myself in the future and stuff
like that. You know, you're just that. And then and after you exert that much energy and you walk out the ring, you get big dopamine rush for an hour or two and I st you know, three hours or not about not thinking about me and my ship and my problems. Mate. Just darkness would come back over me after that you know, like as I never I never understood myself. I never knew how to look at myself. I never took ownership of anything. I didn't know how
to work through anything. And say, you know, for me, it was like a little reprieve from this fucking horrible state of fucking living that I was living in.
There you touched on something like I and you made the point like you're not thinking about anything else if someone's hitting you in the head and you're thinking about trying to trying to avoid.
It or return the shot.
That helped me through doing a homicide detective as long as I was, And people go, well, what what do you do the relax And I go, well, I can forget about work at the moment I step into a ring and someone's trying to beat the shit out of me.
Yeah, I'm not thinking.
About the pressure of the work or the horrible things that I've seen at work. So I understand that that is a form of escapism.
Yeah, because it's hard to explain that to people that don't get it. That's one of the reasons now, like I actually feel I should feel mentally in a much better place, and physically you feel like I'm a pretty good shape too. It's like, I don't feel like it's not that I couldn't fight now. I made the thought of, like, you know, the thought of me training really hard to hurt someone now, or like even you know I desire to be hit now, isn't there. I think that's because
of like the fucking internal work I've done on myself. Man, you know what I mean? You know, like it was something I really needed back then. It's just not It's just not something that motivates me now. You know.
In one of the one of the podcasts you did and some of the stuff I've read about you, you made a comment and I think I've captured it. But I'd like you to need to love yourself in order to heal. And you're talking about you're going the pain and the boxing ring gave you and escape from all the trauma and different stuff that you've been through. What what's your view on that? If I if I make the statement or pulling out stuff that you've said you
need to love yourself to heal? What, what's what's that all about?
Yeah? I mean, look, I just think we need to love ourselves full stop. And so what what what what I do. What I mean, what I aid to do with the rehab things now is to show people pathways to learn how to accept themselves and love themselves. But you know what I do outside the rehab too, I do like coaching and stuff I help you do, mentoring
and stuff like that. And and I've got a process that I do with people, one that I've got taken through as well, which which shows us who we actually are, like you know, and you know, and who we are, you know, like outside of our ego, outside of all our labels and you know, and and learn to become okay with that, excepting that, and learn to love that, you know, you know, because if if we don't, if we don't accept ourselves, man, that just gets projected on
the outside, and like you know, it affects our lives in a big way. You know.
Do you get the sense that there's people that don't love themselves? Is self sabotage?
Yeah? Mate? And I think if most people are really honest, you know, if you ask most people, do you actually love yourself or do you like yourself? Will accept yourself?
If people are really honest, I reckon it'd be in the ninety percent of people would say they wouldn't, you know, like, you know, I think there's a real there's a real discord from from you know, people living as they are, you know, like you know, and and it can be seen by people sort of needing to be part of the masses and part of the trends and stuff like that, you know, like you know, and that's a that's a big sign of people just being disconnected from who they are,
you know, like when we say to me about the tattoos and stuff like, like you know, yeah, you can have these these these negative connotations and stuff for that, you know, but like you know, like I'm okay with me, and like, you know, whatever decision I make for me
is okay with me, and stuff like that. Whereas a lot of people if like a new new set of sneak is coming stuff like that, you know, like they need they need those or they need to they need to drive a certain car to feel a certain way, and they need to be seen at certain places with certain people and all that stuff, you know. And like in a and my validation's nice, Like it's nice. It's not like I don't like it, It's just I don't
need it anymore. You know, and I feel like I feel like that's the that's a separator when you you know, I mean, I think there's two types of conflict. You know, there's a conflict. There's internal conflict an external conflict. We
get to choose which one. Ninety percent of people have their internal conflict where they look for they look to be part of the crowd, but then they have to live with internal conflict that says you're fucking lying to yourself, your lying to everyone around you just so you can blend in. And then there's a peopleeple, like you know, there's a five to ten percent they have the external conflict where they do everything that they know they need to do for themselves, which is how I try to
live today, and most of the time I do. But then you get the external conflict, you know, you get you get people calling you weird and people calling you like like what are you doing? Like you wake up at one thirty fucking weirdo? You're obsessed? Yeah you know, yeah, you know, yeah, yeah. I post really vulnerable open stuff about my life and my journey on my you know, on my socials and stuff, and I get people fucking saying whatever about it. Man, But like I don't give
a fuck because like that's the external conflict. But internally, for the first time ever in my life, I've been okay with myself, you know, like for someone's running from himself his whole life and sticking needles in his fucking arms and stuff like that. You know, like, you know, that's that's that's the repercussions of me not living you know,
not living in alignment to me. You know, so like I've got no choice see other other people's you know, the repercussions for other people not living as who they are. You know, they're not as big as mine. You know, I've got no choice, man, either either live and adopt this this lifestyle that I learned how to live through some incredible people that taught me how to live this way, or the alternative for me is really fucking bad. You know.
Well you touched on stuff that and why you're talking. I'm sort of reflecting on the things in my life about that internal conflict or external conflict. And I was in the cops for a long long time. Now, that's an organization where you're meant to conform, and yeah, if you step out of line or stick your head up or whatever you tend to get dragged back into. This
is how we do it in this organization. My yeah, as everyone knows that listens to the podcast, that my career ended in tears and controversy.
Shit happens, I know.
But I feel good within myself because I was been true to myself, Like there was aspects of when allegations were made at me, I could have taken the knee and said, I'm sorry, I've been suffering stress, I was working, blah blah blah, and I chose a different path. I've said bullshit. I own everything that I did and I'm not going to apologize for it now. Yeah, I was going for all the dilemmas in my mind, what's do
you take the easy path? And the easier path would have been to show contrition and fall back into line. But I wouldn't have been true to myself. Now, I could have done it easier. I could have done it easier when the front page of the paper and you've got me standing there going I'd rather gave the jail than pay a fine. That's not a good strategy when you're about to go to court. But I looking back
now and it's been four or five years. I'm so glad I've taken that path because I don't know if I could have lived with myself if if I wasn't being true to myself. So a lot of what you've touched on there, I think it's so important. And we're all going to be criticized. People aren't going to like you, people aren't going to like me. But if you're doing what you believe to be the right thing and it's your your journey, I think you've got to hold on the.
Days, yeah, for sure. And the criticism doesn't sting when you're being good with yourself, you know, criticisms it's only really hurtful when you when you're needing the validation of other people, you know what I mean. So you know, like I said, you know, if I'm taking criticism personally today, like I know, I'm not, I'm not living the best as I can. I'm not I'm not honoring myself in
some way, you know. So I'm much like you, you know, And and not only that, like you know, when people actually do live and do honor their truth and stuff like that, it's admirable. Like I found what you did was really admirable. I've got a huge amount of respect
you for what you did. You know. Yeah, And I feel like with other people that have had similar experiences like you and I have had the people that sort of like regardless of like any sort of like external pressures, they just they just stand the truth and they you know, like I look at that shit and just it's that's fucking cool. That's that's that's.
The people that I look up to, all the people that have been mentals or that have always walked their own path and stayed true to themselves. And I like to want of the people that have trained me to to do that. But yeah, it comes to the price. But yeah, when and someone once said to me, and I can't remember the exact quote, but yeah, the quality of life is often demonstrated by the quality of the
people who criticize you. And yeah, I'm saying, like some of the people that attacked me, well, I couldn't give us stuff what they think about when it's all said and done. And that's that's not arrogance. That's not me going I'm better than you. It's just your opinion doesn't count in in my world. I don't value your opinion because I don't value you as a persona And yeah, you've got to balance that with sometimes where you criticize, it's justifiable, and that's if you're aware of the type
of person you are. You've got to check yourself then and go, okay, well that's that's a fair, fair call. Yeah, okay, I'll pull my head in. But again, that's been true to yourself. You're trying to improve yourself, and I get the sense with your life and when we get into part two, we'll talk about what you're doing with hope and help and the way that you've turned your life around. But okay, you accept this life that I'm living, this ship.
You use the boxing example. You know, I'm fighting for a title, but I've been putting shit in my body and it's not preparing for it properly. So yeah, you've got to have some acknowledgment. You've got to learn. And life is a journey, isn't it.
Yeah I understand, Yeah, I understand. Yeah, And that's exactly right. So you know I've got and I've got that perspective of life now, you know, like I'm never a victim. Now, you know, I take full responsibility for everything. So I'm I'm the common denominated in all my ship. You know, everything's happening for me, not to me. You know. So when when I'm going through something, you know, like I'm thinking,
all's like, you know, I'm coming up against stuff. You know, I'm thinking, well, what am I meant to learn through this? You know, and that just just that perception of just just just just perceiving life that way, it just makes it a fucking journey, you know what I mean, like rather than this fucking struggle, you know, And it's been a it's been a complete life changing experiences.
That you know, I get what you're saying, and I think it's a valuable, valuable comment there that you don't always see yourself as a victim. You go, Okay, why why did this happen? I see there the type of lessons that you've learned for sure.
For sure. I mean it's hard to see when life doesn't go the way we predict the two you know, we plan it to or hope it goes. You know, we look at it as like unfortunate or like it's not this fucking blessing that it is, you know, like it. But you know, if you can actually sort of like if you spend a bit of time like ordering your life and reviewing your life and stuff, like you look back at all those moments that that when things didn't go the way you plan, it's because like fucking what
really needed to happen ended up happening, you know. And I just feel like that. And that's the thing about slowing down for me now, you know, I always live life really fast paced, like fucking next thing, next thing, the next thing. When you actually slow down, you look at life, you just go, man like everything is just working out in this an incredible way. You know. Yeah, it's got hardships, it's got challenges, it's got like heartbreaks,
it's got all this stuff in it. Like you know, maybe you know, as humans, like we're we're like fucking pre programmed. I blame social media for this is a lot as well, pre programmed to like chase happiness and comfort and stuff like that, you know, because everyone's gloating about like this fucking life that they want everyone else to see them having and stuff. So we feel shame when we're not fucking feeling happy, you know, I mean,
we're human beings. It's full array of fucking emotions. You know that you know, and we feel like if we're not happy, we've got to suppress it. So yeah, but the actuality is man. Part of the fucking human experience is to experience all of it.
Yeah, well, before you mentioned social media. Before social media, I used to always make the comment I can't judge on relationships. I've had some good ones, bad ones, and failings.
But they happened to just gone through another one.
But I would always laugh, not laugh, but I make the comments of people close to me. Yeah, the couples that you see in the first six months saying how much they love each other, and that's just beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. It's like pre social media days, look how happy we are. And you could almost go, that's going to fail trying to present this persona that life's perfect and you think it can't be that perfect because life is not that perfect. So that that takes it takes them down the notch.
But look, let's let's leave it, leave it there for part one. When we get back, I want you to take us on the journey that how you break away from your addiction and then the impressive work that you're doing it. I hope in health rehabilitation, because I think that's yeah, and this is a crime podcast. The amount of addictions and that impact on crime, it's yeah, it's a one way straight. When I look at your life, if we stop the podcast here and we didn't, I
didn't know what you did in the future. I got to say all the warning signs I wouldn't put on not a gambling man, but if I did gamble, I wouldn't have put money on you getting through without going to prison or dying.
That seemed to be the trek creep that your life was on. But I've got close to both of them. I'm very close to both of them.
Okay, we'll talk about that when we get back, and what you're doing with hope and health.
Sure, jeez, awesome. Thank you. Never k