The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side of life the average persons never exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. This one's a bit strange because I'm not sure if it should be called Eye Catch Killers or The Clink. I've been invited up to Brisbane to sit down and have a chat with Brent Simpson, host of the very successful podcasts
The Clink. Brent's story is a little bit different from mine in that Brent was a sergeant at arms with an outlaw motorcycle gang and I was a detective inspector at the gang Squad, so yeah, we shouldn't like each other. But Brent invited me to come up to his studio and I thought I should take up the challenge. But
I got to say, Brent ambush me. I thought it was going to be a friendly chat, but Brent obviously had some things he wanted to get off his chest about the relationship between the world he knew and the world that I inhabited as a cop. I think you're going to enjoy it a little bit different from what we normally have on I catch killers. Brent's throwing a bit my way, and I'd like to think I threw
a bit back at him. But in the end we'd found some common ground and it's a really interesting chat with two people that come from different sides of the law, and I hope you enjoy it.
My name's Brent Simpson. I'm the host of the Clink podcast Stories of Redemption. I was a career criminal, drug importer and involved in bike clubs.
Gary Jubilin's my name. I was a cop for over thirty years in New South Wales Police. The majority of that time was spent in homicide I now hosts a podcast series called Eye Catch Killers.
What brings us here, Well, let's just put it on the table. You're Gary Jubilant, the man that has a true crime podcast that likes to talk to ex crims and people that basically have some sort of background with
the law. My podcast talks about stories of redemption, and to be honest with you, mate, I wanted to sit down with you today and actually do something no one's done before and put the gloves on rather than take them off, because I think it's about time the two blakes like ourselves had a no bullshit conversation about what truly goes on behind the scenes.
All right, well, I haven't got a problem with that. Wasn't sure which way it was going to go, but let's do it.
Well, you got invited up here, and firstly, I appreciate you taking the time to come up here. And yeah, fair enough. I bullshitted and said that it was coming up to do a joint I guess podcast for both of us. But I thought about it and I thought, no, fuck that fuck. Okay, you know, when has anyone ever sat down with you and truly had it out with you? And I guess here I am ready to have a crackback. So for everybody out there listening, this is going to
be something a little bit different. I think to your podcasts and that my podcast has had, and I think the listeners out there would like to know a little bit more about the who's and the whys. Why did you for starters? Why would you want to be a cop?
Okay, well, bullshit off the table, then yeah, that's why we're going. I can tell you why I wanted to be a cop. I didn't join to do something good for society. I joined because it looked like an exciting job for me. I didn't have a problem with enforcing rules. If rules are there, they're there for a reason. I joined it just for the excitement. But while I found Brent as I was doing it, I think I was doing some good, good stuff.
You're saying, enjoy it for the excitement. The excitement, what what's the excitement of locking people up? Like? I get it, And I'll give you credit where credit's due. I'm not going to take it away from you because I think what you have done in the latter part of your career, I don't know too many people that could have actually gone through those things. There's traumatic situations, the cases that you worked on, and the credit to you working in
a space where you brought pedophiles to the surface. You expose them missing beautiful young children. Mate. Look, I'm not going to sit here and say that that in any way, shape or form is something that you know. I'm again because I commend that that takes a lot of courage. But I also too, as someone who's dealt with a lot of ship cops over the years and copped a lot of shit from them. Why what do you get out of What do you get out of chasing bikes
or career criminals? That are you know? What is it?
No, I'm happy you asked that question because I want to answer it. When I first started in the cops, I was naive, young, ignorant, as we all are when we're young fellas and young women. But the longer I stayed in the cops, in the area of work, I gravitated towards as a criminal investigator. I know your background as a bikey like, yeah, you guys, as part of the charter, you don't like cops, you don't talk to cops.
I gets made us sick. I mean, at the end of the day, there was nothing worse than having a copper kicking your front fucking doors in front of your kids. You know what I mean, Rip your house to pieces, tell your missus to go sit in the corner, shutow mouth. Talk about the way that we speak to women and children today as men, and all this sort of shit. And you know, like I get it, there's a way
of things to be executed and done. And obviously intel that comes in that these places may have firearms, could be violent offenders, what have you. I get all that, but take that out on me, don't take that out on my family.
I make this point. I make this point because I'm not I'm not going to defend cops across the board, but I'm not going to throw cops under the bus across the board. There's some good cops and there's some bad cops. Can you vouch for every member of an OMCG.
No, And at the end of the day, I'm not here to vouch for anybody bar myself as you are, and look I to this day, you know, and I swear by it. I don't personally have any involvement in that space anymore. I don't live my life around crime and outlaw motorcycle clubs. I still do have a lot of respect for a lot of members, absolutely because I know that they are genuinely good humans. I think, like everything in life, you know, we're judged by whom we associate with. Do I think that every man is a
bad man? Absolutely nice? Like you go to a jail. Do you think that everybody in a jail, everybody that's been locked up, is just fucking shit? Do you think that they're bad? Because I know for a fact that they're not.
No. And look when I say have changed my mind, I'd say I've opened my mind rather than change my mind when I joined the cops, and I bring it back. Yeah, if you're going to do anything in life, at least evolve as you go through life, learn lessons. When I joined the cops, it was pretty black and white for me. Yeah, bad guys, good guys. You know, we were dressed in blue. The bad guys we chased and put them in jail. Move onto the next thing. But there's more that you
can do in policing like this. I want to justify police and I understand where you're coming from. And if you've had your personal experiences as you talk. I had a CAD when I was in the cops, and maybe you understand this. I'd go after you, and i'd go after you hard. I make no apologies for it. I wouldn't go after your family. I wouldn't humiliate you in front of your kids.
That's not And how many years did you spend in the police force?
Over thirty five thirty So.
You're obviously involved in organized crime and all that sort of stuff.
The majority of my career was as a besides tactical policing, was also major crime, major crime.
So therefore, anyone like myself with a background OMCG. Organized crime, importation, any of this sort of major crime, robbery squad and all this sort of stuff, you would have had a hand in. Yeah, so there would you not say that there are heavy handed tactics that police do use that do then affect family members.
There's consequences, there's consequences by your actions. I wouldn't set out to humiliate a family member, to upset children. I think there's a nogo there in my book, and.
No go in that book across the board or you know, in any underworld style of live.
So I put it this way, if if there's family there. I used to hate if I'm locking up someone like you, if the parents are there or someone's there treating with dignity. And it was told to me, and this is this is where I'm saying, Brent, I've learned. I'm not making any apologies for anything I've done the cops, but I work closely with Sarah yure, a forensic psychologists on some
a lot of homicide investigations, and i'd rad life. I'd go off half beat and say this blake's done this, he must be a shithead, and yeah, a bad guy. And she was at pain to explain to me just because someone does something bad doesn't necessarily make them a bad person. Yeah, I'm a bit slow on the uptake, but that started gradually working its way into my mind, and I saw that people do make mistakes. We all make mistakes, and I've made mistakes. Yeah, I live with them.
I learned by them. I don't judge everyone, but for me to slam all Bikis or to you to slam all cops, I think we've got to break it down because I'm not going to vouch for every cop, but I will vouch for the ones that I know, there's the way I say in policing, I've met some of the most impressive people in my life and some of the most drop kicks in my life within that organization. The antagonism between omcgs and cops. I was in the
gang squad. I was a detective inspector in the gang squad right around the time just set the period of time where that stuff happened between the common Cero's and the Hells Angels at the airport. So I saw what was going on, I think, and you might have a different view. There was a perception that what goes on in OMCG gangs stays within the gangs and innocent people
don't get caught up. That's where the line was crossed, and I think it changed the landscape forever in law enforcement and omcg's And that ship went down in the airport. You can't have people bashed like that in a public, public place, and that changed the landscape. But I during my career, like working gang squad or when I was in homicide paths across with CG members, I've got to say, I sit down and quite often there's a bit of respect for the way that they live their life, so
there's not that antagonism. But when if you're coming at me as in fuck you you're a cop, we hate cops, well, stupid me is going to go, well, fuck you, I hate you too, and it escalates that way. I think, Yeah, I don't think it serves either side very well.
I know for me personally, and I make this fairly clear, I am and have no longer been a part of OMCG lifestyle now for a long time. I think twenty and ten twenty eleven was my final days of ever donning a set of colors. You know, as I said, to this day, still hold a lot of regard and respect for a lot of great men whom I grew up with as seniors or you know, people I looked
up to. Someone who didn't have family, who didn't have brothers, who was brought around a strong brotherhood and a camaraderie. I can't speak for today, and I'm not about to speak for today, so I make no words negative or positive in reference to how things are structured today. I'm only speaking from my perspective of when I was what I see today, I don't agree with a lot of it. You talk about crossing that line. I feel that the lines got crossed well and truly some time ago. To
be specific. I'm not going to sort of sit here and throw those dates or times or actions into place, because I don't feel that that's something that I need to touch on. But I have to agree that the days of you know, publicly taking action for you know, things that are happening within certain spaces, they were always done out of mind, out of sight, so to speak. It was never involved with women, it was never involved with children, was never done within a workplace. Today, I
don't think that those values align. I will say that much. And once again, that's just me seeing things as they are. That's not me speaking factually because I'm not involved in the lifestyle. You're an excope. You know, there's a lot of things that we're seeing today that the way that the police are dealing with organized crime very very different to obviously the time when you were actively in the force and me actively as a club member. I mean, how do you see that today and where it's at.
I got to say, and this is not swinging a vote here for law enforcement, but I reckon that would be a hard gig being a crook trying to make a dollar days with technology the way it is seen, what's happened now. I don't know that they'll shift their focus when I say they are talking collectively. It doesn't have to be OMCG, any sort of organized crime situation, shift their attention on how they're going to do it. But I wouldn't like to be trying to commit a
crime these days. I think the pendulum swung in favor of law enforcement with all the technology. You walk out on the street now and yeah, we can pretty well track you.
I totally agree, And to be honest with you, it fathoms me because I sit back now and you know you often ponder on the how's the wires and the waves, and to me, when you weigh it up, I think to myself, no matter what the maybe the short reward would be long term, you're fucked. Technology has caught up so much. And I think we see this from the latest with the ghost without going down that rabbit hole and on all this sort of stuff. You know, Like,
I just think that the days are gone. I've been able to be under the radar, you know, making an earn in a way that was I guess non legal.
If you will yeah, well the world, the world has changed. I missed aspects of it. I like the world, you know, I embraced technology, or that technology got myself into trouble recording a conversation on a phone.
So just on that, are you are you classed as a criminal? Yeah, yeah, well hang on, hang on, so Gary Jubilant, Yeah, the ones the glorified detective that did some amazing things has now been seen to be classed as someone with a criminal conviction.
I've got and hit me, hit me now that you've dug deep, now haven't your brain?
I say this is a podcast because which I'm thinking you are. You know, we all do our podcast and we all make them all pretty and nice, and we do things. And although this is not at once again uncensored, it's the clink, you know. I mean, we're keeping it
very open, very real, unscripted. But I have to ask the question, and because I'm sure there are so many people who are listening to this today and go, yeah, okay, well you've got their interview and Gary Jubilan X detective will hang on a sec What makes you so much different to me and everybody else out there now that has a criminal record?
Well, I just say, I don't have a problem with you. You're going hard, because if you don't go hard, I can't. I can't defend myself. So yeah, yeah, I'm a convicted criminal, and I get called that on social media and comments there. The other day, I wanted to work over in America to do some stuff for the podcast. I had the visa rejected because I'm I don't know what and the tourist criminal.
How does that feel? Well? Does that feel like compan it? Serious? Mateuse I can tell you how fuck feels with. My wife's told that she's going to go back to New Zealand and I won't see my kids because I can never get into New Zealand because I have no right due to my ex gang affiliations. In criminality, you're someone who's upheld the law. If that's corrected, I say that right,
upheld it upheld up over them. I'll get corrected somewhere along joke's aside, You're now sitting in the same boat as many of us with criminal convictions.
Well, okay, As I said, life's a learning process, and I wind it back even further when I was first charged and when I had to appear at court and when I was fighting it, I thought it hard in court. And I make no apologies for what I did. I make no apologies for the stance I you know, I'm.
A very sorry person. Can you make fuck all apologies? I was about the tenth time I've heard you so far by fifteen minutes already that you make no apology.
I apologize all the time, but I own my ship and I own what I did.
But what I.
Wanted to say is that I, for the first time felt what it was like having the weight of the whole state coming after you, know, the resources of the police coming after you, And I got to say, it felt quite intimidating. And I am a person that was set up probably best out of anyone to handle that situation in that the allegations weren't something horrendous, it wasn't sort of something to be ashamed of. The consequences weren't extreme. I wasn't going to be locked away for the next
twenty years. But having the full resources of the state coming after you, I felt how oppressive it was. And it made me reflect on stuff that I've done in the cops again, not looking back and going and maybe I shouldn't have done that, but more of an understanding if it was someone like you, what it feels like.
If you've got charges coming, it's shit, and then you've got to go face the court and all this crap that goes in with the court and the brief of evidence, and then you've got to serve the brief and then the response and all the money that you spend.
So no favors in reference to having to see lawyers will leave later anything like this just because you were once are serving off none of that. You basically now I've been stripped of anything other than just being Joe's citizen who's now been charged it has a criminal record and now must front the.
Courts, charge convicted, in front the courts. But if anything, and I try to take positives from negatives, and trust me that there was low points when that happened. I was in the thick of my career. I was enjoying what I was doing. I had the passion and it was taken away from me overnight. So there was a low point. But then people smarter than me going well, yeah, wake up to yourself. It's not the end of the world.
And I see what some other people are being through the people that the families are victims of homicides and different things, and I think, well, you've been a bit of a softy year, like it's not that bad. Just get on with your life. And that's that's what I've chosen to do. But it has changed changed my thinking, and yeah, I'd like to think I'm a better person for it. I don't want to give credit to any of those idiots that caused all this drama on me, but I think I'm a better person for it. It's
a more understanding. I've looked at your side of life, people like yourself, and I'm not probably as judgmental as I perhaps was when I was in the cops, which I think is a good thing.
I do too, And I can't wait to have you know, our part of this podcast move into that stage because there's some things that you have done and are doing there. I will leave the door open for you.
I talk about it.
Yeah, and I think it's important because you know, here you are one minute being that cop that's you know, literally putting people in jail. And as I said, we will touch on it shortly. I just want to and look asked if I can't go down this road. Was this in reference your charges to a very sensitive case involving a young person who was missing. Yeah, I don't want to start for the respect of the families and
someone saying names or what anything like that. But as someone who is a moralistic man and somebody whom came from a code and still lives by a code, it's just how it is. I personally don't look at you in that respect for what you have been alleged to have done. You were trying to protect and get to the bottom of an unsolved matter that related to a child. So as a father, as a human, I can't. I can't sit here and call you a piece of shit,
your weak dog, and all this sort of shit. If we had met fifteen years ago and you were in the cops and you fary not concern, you are just a low cunt, you know.
What, that would have been interesting.
Well, there was every chance, you know what I mean. But due to why you've been charged and no longer are you any way, shape or form attached to any police service A podcaster who has a background as I am, I'm not a criminal. I have no IMC connection as such. Today I'm a father and a podcaster and a hard working there. So we're on even ground there. But that's that's a tough call to see why you've now got a criminal record.
Look, life's not not fair. Well, I'll mentioned the case because it's public record. That was three year old whim to the young boy and the spider Man suit that disappeared up at ben Roon.
Drive breaking absolutely destroyed.
So you know, I ran the investigation for four years. I took it over five months after he disappeared and headed up and then I was taken off because I was recording a conversation on telephone. On my telephone, I didn't hide with a person of interest, a person involved in that investigation that I wanted to speak to. But I might also add had lawfully approved listening devices in his house. That's without getting in the nitty gritty of
the fences. And you know, I'm putting people before the court, So I'd be a bit hypocritically if I don't accept the decision of the court. You know, my whole career was putting people before the court. So I just got to cop it on the chin what I say. I'm not ashamed of it, that's you know, I'm not ashamed of what I did. I didn't do it for any ulterior motive. I'm not some I just want to touch it.
I don't think you should be ashamed like I do find it personally. I think there'd be a lot of people out there that what you were doing was a very honorable thing. In reference to finding answers.
You got to like there's because I was in the cops before the Royal Commission came through. I'm talking New South Wales, so I was working in the arm tohold up squad and there's a lot of shame that came out of the Royal Commission about stuff that cops are doing. And I know in Queensland corruption and things that came out. So I understand what can happen is if you take shortcuts or just go one step too far. So I understand there become a slippery slide and you lose your
moral compass. I've seen it because I worked in major crime before the Royal Commission came through, so I know the impact of it. So what I did on the Tyrrell investigation, I don't believe that it was a case of being corrupt. I was doing what I thought needed to be done to find out what happened to a three year old child disappeared. And I might add still to this day, ten years down the track, and this
is a sad part about it. We still don't know what's happened in the wind absolutely And if one thing you say, I have no regrets. So one regret I've got is that the controversy that I've been caught up with, the infighting between the police, really our focus should be
on finding William Tyrell. Like I'm not apologizing for what I've done, but when I say all this in fighting or all the games that are going on within the police, it's a shame that we're not all just heading in the same direction trying to find out what happened to Willim. But can I ask you some questions now that.
You just let me finish for a second on the bandwagon of the far all right? Yeah, And you're someone who are the first person being literally sit down with and chew the over because normally it's me on the other end of it getting hammered by your ex mates. Thinking about the situation and all the values and the trust that you had within your beliefs of your career do you feel that there's some part of corruption still within that sector.
The way I look at corruption these.
Especially after your experience, if.
You're not properly resourcing an investigation, if your focus is not serving the public, I think that's as corrupt as corruption was in the pre where people were taking dollars or people taking back ribs and that, or letting people get off or fudging brufs. All that corruption that was exposed. That's bad. But I think if you under resource things and don't focus on what the public's expectation are or give crime figures out there, I think that's just as
bad as corruption. So I reckon policing. This is my take on policing. And I'm not saying this to pissing anyone's pockets, but I'm saying we're public servants. As a public servant, that's pretty easy. What you meant to do, You're meant to serve the public. So a police force should be serving the public. What I see in policing organizations and they can't attract cops at the moment across the country, which is really sad because I think we're
all served better if you've got good cops. Is that there's people that are caught up with their own agenda, seeing what they can take from the cops, not what they can give to the cops. I always thought we're in there to help the community, do the right thing, do the work. That was my focus, the focus of the people I looked up to, the people I worked with,
I respected, that's what we wanted to do. But there were certain individuals that were just focused on what can I get out of the cops, how can I get promoted, what can I get from this, which I think that's where it goes wrong. But corruption, I don't know. I've been I have limited contact with policing now. Sadly that was sort of cut off from me when I was charged and convicted. But it saddens me that you're not getting good people in there because.
Are you looked at though by the police force now as another.
Criminal certain members of New South Wales Police. But collectively, the amount of support I get across the board is quite humbling. And it might just be a simple thing of someone coming up to me in the street and saying something and the irony of yeah that I'm judged by certain people within New South Wales Police, not the whole of New South Wales police, but other police forces don't seem to have a problem with me or Laura.
I'll just basically clearly say to you that, you know, I have nothing but respect for what you were trying to achieve. And I feel that, you know, any low piece of shit out there that's gone and done what they've done to any child, people like yourself, they need more of to be able to take action. And we talk about you know, crime's atrocities based around you know, children and pedophiles, and there's someone who I am a survivor of sexual abuse and you know, for me it's
been very traumatic. Forty eight years of more so, forty four years of my life is where it started. So you know, when I see somebody out there going into bat to try and prevent that from happening, or bring justice to a scumbag like that, how can I not sort of, I guess look at it from a productive
point of view. Yeah, okay, you're a cop. I was a crim But at the end of the day, yeah, like you can't go to jail and a pedophile walk through the main and get a pat on the back and a shake and a hand and a hug, it just doesn't happen. So what's the difference, Yeah, you know what I mean?
Well, I do know what you mean, and you're quite right, like there's crimes and there's crimes, and when you're talking to crime on child there's there's no mitigating circumstances and that no excuse whatsoever you say, I don't have regrets or don't say sorry. My regret is if I knew I was going to be taken off in the manner I was, I would have gone harder. Instead of working twenty hours a day, I would have worked twenty two hours a day like that that this this sits with me,
that this is unresolved, unresolved issue. But yeah, I'm hoping that people are working on it now, you know, come up with something and get it, get a result because we need to need to get that result. But yeah, policing and what I wanted to ask you.
Still go for it, I said the other I'd copy it literally like the punt the.
With omcgs and members and when I do get to meet them, not collectively where it's a group of cops and a group of bikis because everyone's bridged up and no one's really communicating. But when I've sat down actually spoken some blakes or blokes I know socially. Nothing to do with the cops. I just know them. In my world, we got a lot in common. Yeah, there's there's a lot in common. But you guys have this code where you just got to hate us. Now where does that come from?
Okay, So let me just take it a step back even further, few years so before a lot of members, and I say this as a general thing because I can there's a lot of members out there who end up joining clubs because of one a camaraderie, our brotherhood. And I'm speaking of when I came in. I'm forty eight. I was involved since I was seventeen eighteen. I started
hanging around clubs. I was a streak kid from Campbelltown, and you know, back then there was the ReBs that were very very strong bannets and and you know in that inner city sort of in a western Sydney sort of area. As a young person growing up on the streets, it was tough. It was hard. You know, what you had to do to just keep shoes on your feet. As you're growing up, you're doing whatever you're doing to make money to survive. Then all of a sudden there's
a bit of street cred. So you know, at that stage you're not looking at becoming a member of an OMCG. It's an evulsion of your circumstances, your lifestyle. And this is what a lot of people don't understand. There's a lot more underlying to so many members, a lot of traumas, a lot of things that members don't talk about. There's a lot of hardened men there that have been hurt and broken as young men, young boys, you know, And I'm open to speak about my own journey in respect
to that. You know, Like I always said that as a sergeant I was, I was always willing and able to do and go whatever was dealt with needed to be done. But stepping away from that and looking at me as a man and understanding who I was, I was a scared little boy inside a set of colors. Now, the colors never ever made the members today. I can't say once again that that may be how it is. But back in the day, you had to be able to stand on your own two feet. It didn't just
come to you. Weren't just handed a set of colors. It had to come with a lot of hard work and you standing up as a strong person, a reputable person. Someone could turn to your brother and know you've got your brother's back. Your brother could rely on you. So much more involved than what the public perceives it to be. It wasn't always based around money. You couldn't buy your
way in. You know, you had to earn it. A lot of brothers had died over the years, you know, Like you know, for you to wear a set of colors that have been worn by men that.
Had lost their lives, that's huge.
So you know where does the hatred come into all that? The police would be so hans on back then, like I can tell you now, Campbelltown police station was rife with it. They would flog the fuck out of you. This is before they brought in all the cameras. There was that many black spots in that police station. There was one sergeant that I knew that knew my story and he's passed on now, and I'll give credit to him.
He would whenever I knew he was on, there was every chance that I would get bail because he knew that I had nothing, and you know, he knew I was copping a hard time. I was a ship bag. I was doing what I was doing. Don't worry about that there. I won't deny that, you know what I mean, Like for what I've been charged with, I'm guilty of it. There's no denial of that to date. Let me just put that in there before.
That's just about a course to date.
I just want to put that on the fucking record from there. That's not even but hear me out. So therefore, there was a lot of a lot of heavy handedness, a lot of flog and a lot of you know, like you get put in the back of the bullwag and you'd be having your head punched in while your hands are cuffed behind your back. Now you can't cuff juveniles with their hands behind their back back then they would. They'd flog the far look at you, that drag you through,
throw your head first into the cells. Like the shit that we used to cop was unbelievable. Now people think that that's all bullshit. Thankfully, a lot of commissions that have brought all this factual evidence to surface, and the heavy handedness of police has been exposed to answer a question that's where the hatred begins, why would I respect?
Walking down the street some prick that I know that's taken me in handcuffed behind my back, flogged the fuck out of me, laughed at me in front of his colleagues, and they've all sat there and thought it was funny, kicking me while I'm down, watching me screaming, and at that case, as a young kid, sometimes in tears, beggingem's
to stop, why would I respect? And then it grows and it becomes more hatred than obviously that next level you move into that sort of from that street cred, you're moving into maybe a space of becoming anomal hang around for a club. You naturally already have that hatred for the law. You know you talk about that one percent. I then I've been molded into become that one percenter, that person that is going to despise you as a cop or you as a as a law authority.
Look when you when you explain it that way, Brent, I get it, and I just I break it down in my simple mind, how would I react with that situation if anyone flogged me or added me They've got an enemy for life? No, No, if.
So busy, That's how it was, and these I'm not saying this just to just to pipe up or hype up this, this this chat. These are facts. This has been proven beyond doubt that these acts took place, especially you know, and I'm not just talking about Cameltown Police Station. This is across the nation, you know, the injustices that have happened over the years to young persons which have
later become some of our most notorious criminals. You know, I did an interview with Bernie Matthews, you know, God bless his soul. A beautiful man, a very intellectual man who I had the honor of having on my podcast to clink. He was in at Grafton. Now, Grafton was the old sort of place for the heaviest as well. I guess what Golden Supermax was is sorry in its day. You know, they'd literally come off the truck. They were beaten, they were striped, naked, they were like the atrocities that
occurred to those inmates. He said to me at one stage there, I think there was maybe one out of that wing or one out of those say, for example, I think they might have been fourting don't quote me on that. The exact number that did not become a murderer or some crime of atrocity or some horrific crime that they committed down the track. Why well, yeah, because they hate the system. They hated the authority. But why
can you think about it? If they were put there because they were uncontrollable or unmanageable, the logic behind it would be not to fuck him up even more, break the cycle.
Well, I want to talk about that because it's something, but it's funny. You should mention Bernie Matthews because I think we've found some common ground here. I got to know Bernie around the same time I got out of the cops. He just got out of prison. Someone put us in contact together. We met. It was a really awkward meeting. I went to his place up at Liftgow. I think it was seeing there. He's looking at me. I'm looking at him, going what the fuck are we
doing talking to each other? But very smart man, very smart man. And he talked about those experiences to me. And when he was dying of cancer, I gave visit him in hospital and I felt like he had a lot he wanted to tell, a lot, he wanted to get I.
Think there's a lot that went with him, and you know as you would have experienced having been like I at eighteen was at the sip that was a scary place. You know, you're looking at five years plus most blokes. I was doing two and a half on the bottom at eight en Brant.
I think there's something. Yeah, we get back to the rivalry with the cops and the bikis or cops and crooks or whatever. It just shows, like one bad cop the impact it can have. You know, if someone if some a bad cop, if that's your experience, that you can hate cops for the rest of your life. Similarly, you can have one cop that you might think decent person. And I've heard people in your situation say, well, there was this one cop that was a decent person that
can change the path of their life. But I Bernie taught me not to judge, not taught me, but the help on that journey looking at Okay, what are we doing? What are we doing? Like do we have to hate each other? Bernie and I when he was operating, I was operating in the stick ups and he was robbing banks. If we met each other, we'd probably shoot each other.
But just a touch on that and he's just a little bit of fact, which you would already know because you've interviewed. The one thing that Bernie always said is he never intentionally went ever and to do an un armed robbery, to ever use the gun. He never went in there with intention to hurt anybody.
And you know, and he swore by that. And you know a really interesting fact, not just with Bernie, a couple of arm robbers that I've spoken to since they didn't know about post traumatic stress and all that stuff. Correct, they walk out of the bank and I think Russell, our good mate that also sadly passed away, walk out of the bank thinking they're good people because they didn't hurt anyone. But they hadn't at that stage even comprehended the trauma that comes from it.
Look, but you don't.
And I.
Did my time and I paid for my crime. You know, I got done for commercial importation. At that stage, did I think that the ongoing flow would be detrimental to the community. No, it wasn't something in my mindset that I thought about. Yet. Have I been affected by people with addiction and through addiction and you committing crimes to people I care about and love because they've gone on a rampage. Absolutely, so did I contribute back then to
that part two thousand and nine, Absolutely I was. You know, I had, and I did, and I convicted and done my time for it. At the time, they wouldn't have been thinking about, like you say, you know, the trauma or the PTSD that was left to the teller or the public in the in the area of the space of what too.
You know, I think we find common ground there. You're talking about your dealings with the drugs, and you didn't understand the drama that flowed on from that. You got Bernie robbing banks and thinking he's been a good fellow because he didn't shoot anyone. You got me, just if you've committed a crime, I'm going to lock you up.
I'm going to play hardball, lock you up. No one really like when I was locking people up when I was in the in the cops started to evolve a little bit more towards the end, but I didn't really have time to think about what if I was locking you up, I wouldn't be concerned about what was your upbringing, did your parents love you, were you were you brutalized or what ever happened. It would have been got one, where's the next one? So we all look back and
we learn. I think the fact that we're sitting down and discussing, even though you fucking ambush me.
But well, I mean, look, at the end of the day, I didn't know how else to go about getting you here. And look, I'm not mates with cops. I don't speak to cops as simple as that. And I'm sure you have very little doo with crims other than through your podcast. I felt that I've got enough front to sit down and ask somebody who knows, and I know that you're going to actually come back at me. So when I put the gloves on and I'll crack together because I'm at the end of the day, you know it's me
and you. There's the cameras here and the mics and and it's as real as you're going to get.
Yeah, well, I respect it, and the fact that you asked me out here, because I would assume I would assume that.
Don't assume, okay, assume that.
Never assumed. I don't like to ship, all right, Well, I know that you'd get some ship flowing your way. Just mere fact you're seeing in the room talking to me that's life.
And I think that's what you have to realize, is it doesn't matter. Nobody's going to sit here and say you know that they appreciate you and like you for everything you do. There's people out there that couldn't stand half the people that I may interview or me sitting here now questioning you on my podcast. And I use that word questioning. I don't even like to use.
That word because I just I should just play hardball like you guys did, the hard hard nuts that I'd interview just fucking sit here and stare at you.
It'd be fucking boring, boring podcast. And the thing is, let it be known. I didn't pay for Gary to come up. He paid for his own fucking flights. So he's stupid and of the day, you know, like he come up here with literally I'm no, I'm not going to use that word. I think you would have thought that you're coming up for a happy, bubbly chat on because our season is based around giving people the tools
to bettering their lives. Funny enough, though, and I think that you do have some tools there that we were able to pull out and leaving the toolbox after our episode that will help people, and that's the other side of it without sort of pissing in your pocket. I know that you've been doing things from a different side
of life. I guess if I can say it a little bit more from my perspective from other inmates out there, perspective from other persons out there with criminalities perspective, No, you're not a criminal, even though you've been convicted now and you have been charging. You know what it feels like to be rejected for a visa? Suck shit? And I was like saying to mean it like suck shit, because like, do you know how many fucking times we try to go for visas and get knocked back because
of misdemeanors. But yet, yes, okay, look, not all of us have got misdemeanors. Some of us have got some serious crimes. But it's not a nice feeling, you know. But on the flip side of that, I do know after doing a little bit of homework about you, and you've been putting yourself into some spaces that are uncomfortable that we have had to live in, that we have had to experience.
Well, I figure I've got to have a look at it. If I'm going to talk about crime a true crime podcast. I'm going to give credit to people that have come on the podcast and sort of changing changing my view on things. But yeah, what do you do? I'm not a big one in that. I think people within the police, certain people I'm talking like a very small group that went at me, wanted to break me. And I'm thinking they don't even know who I am because they weren't going to break me. And I look at this way,
what's my best form of event? Have an interesting life? My life's interesting. Yes, you ambush me coming up here, but that's not a bad interview.
That's one for us. But I'm going to actually claim that one because I'll tell you what to be the first time I ever got to ambush next. And maybe I'm losing the sharpness because you dropped the ball, mate, You didn't do enough investigations.
I should have seen that coming coming a mile away. But you know, but I think it's worthy.
I think it's worthy that we have we're sitting here now.
Finally, I think it's why I come up, why I want to sit down with you. I think I think it's interesting and it's not lost on you orr like, yeah, you did what you did, and you did it very well at your time. I did what I did very well, and neverthe two should meet. I get that. But i've been listening to your podcast. Yes, I'll say it. I listened to you.
I've heard a couple of yours.
I've got to say you do a pretty good job. But even when we I think you start just before me or whatever. But around that time kicking off close to about four years around that time, and I thought it was really curious there was who was a mutual friend. So that suggested we get in contact or whatever, or you might want to speak to Brent. I think the feedback and it was I think John Killey. You might know John Killick escaped from Blake that flew.
Out of one of the most maximum security the facilities, that you just had a helicopter land with his Russian girlfriend that hijacked the helicopter.
Yeah, you can't make this ship up. But anyway, and.
You know what what an actual like and people are going to say, mate, what a legend and what a great man.
He said, I'll speak to Brent, because I was speaking to him and he came back and I said, he said that I spake the Brent, I don't think he wants to speak to you. And a few other f this fat and we can say it on our podcast Restricted God response was, I spoke to Brent and he basically said, fuck off, you're a copper. And so to Wit, I said, we'll tell him the fuck off. He was a bikey and I don't know what where we where we found ground from there. But that was the first thing.
And then I was listening to your podcast, and I was genuinely listening before you know anything that i'd get to know or whatever. I was curious about what you're doing and I find found it quite quite interesting. And then yeah, you're running the Clink podcast. I'm running my Catch Killers podcast. You're a bikey or ex bikey. I'm an ex cop. We shouldn't be talking to each other. But as fate would have it, you tricked me.
But well, I mean the reality is, you know, like I, I look at it this way. You know, there is that that absolute line of you don't cross. We're not discussing anybody anything. We're not I'm not asking of you to throw anyone under the bus. There's no there's no statements or allegations or crimes being discuss it's going to implicate anybody or anything. This is purely a conversation between somebody who had a past in the law and somebody who was in the past had had a career criminality.
So if anything, I think this conversation today is to actually benefit people out there and understand a little bit more about who and why. And also too, I guess, touching on the fact and I didn't know that that you now have a criminal record. I can't help but keep chuckling to myself.
It doesn't carry a lot of street.
It's a pretty cool thing. I said you to finally sit down and think to myself, this decorated officer or ex police officer is the criminal.
Look by Jake, I didn't get a certificate of service, but I've got a couple of charge sheets, so you put the certificate of the service in your in your home in the frame. I just want I want to I want to say something because I just reflecting on you. You're saying, how cops if you get a flogging, and then how they you guys, Well, if I got copper flogging from the car.
But it's not a flogging. This is the word we need to change a This was an ongoing constant all the time. You were guaranteed to walk out of the police station bruised, black eyed, bleeding nose, busted lip. You were, you were one hundred percent. This wasn't just me, This was every young person in that in that era.
Yeah, well a different era, and you know it's not was your era? Well my era, I feel like a dying breed, like my era was a long time ago. But I understand that world. I understand where things were pretty willing in the police station. But the point I wanted to make, i'd also seen people in the charge jump over and built some Yeah it might be a female police officer or just some little little dude that you know, been a violent person in his life. Not I'll funk off with.
Your little dude, never been a violent person. Just because you fucking blakes get put through a holy shit at the academy, whether you're a big, small, short, or tall, fat or is getting whatever happened to the fucking copper that had to be six foot tall and bulletproof, and now they put in all these little fat fucks that couldn't even run themselves in a ten meter race.
Gone on the day of the six foot cops. Although I've seen some little cops that can go, but not.
Only there's a seven foot four one.
Yeah, I saw the picture of that. That's that's incredible. But what I was going to say, I just I feel like I just needed to defend the police here a little bit in about the resentment that you get where you're treated that way cops, not all cops, but the hard working cops. Sometimes they put themselves out there and they're constantly being abused and all that. And you know, if you've that might be where they cross the line. You know, how you talk about how in bred that
hate is. Or if a cop turns up every every day at work and is getting abused, getting bashed, getting injured and all that, maybe change a little bit that way too. So I think we've got to just balance balance it.
Out of here. No no, no fair call. Then change your fucking job.
Yeah, well, don't be an out around.
Well, even when you're not, you're still classed as fuck. I mean, look, I get pulled over now, and you know it's an instant intel check. I had a highway patrol officer pull me over only a few months ago and and I mean this sincerely. This has not been a fucking goose. This has been really honest. So he pulls me over and I said, what was the problem. He says, I, mate, it's it's a it's one hundred caz on you're going one hundred and six or one
hundred and seven? I said, ship, apologies were it goes just your license please, and goes back to he's carrying as I'll be back in a second. Comes up and he goes, so you got anything in the car? Said no, said you're welcome and go through it. He goes, so are you still with the omc G group?
And I said what?
He said, Oh, well, I'm just asking you the question. Can you answer the question? I said no, I'm not going to fucking answer the question. I said, oh, I'm going to say it is this. That's how pathetic your intel is. And he goes, oh, oh, hang on a second bigger. I said no, No, I said, I'm fed up with this. I said, twenty ten. What year are
we in now? Twenty twenty four? I said, and your intel still tells you that I am a part of an omc G. And he turned around and he said to me, he walked away, and he come back and he said, listen. He said, I can understand you're firing up. I said, well, no, I'm sick of it. I said, that's not my life. I said, but once again, I said, nine times out of ten, if that had happened in the past, i'd know because he'd sit in his car. Next minute you'd see him come from everywhere, right, so
you knew the squad was coming. That didn't happen. But what he did say to me was that they never remove that sort of intel from the computers. Well, that it's there. So no matter whether you turn into a priest or you give your heart and soul to whatever else it is out there to be doing good in this world. In this community, we talk about constantly being I guess judged or looked at. And I'm not sitting here saying that he was just doing his job. I got caught doing six k's or seven k's over the
limit that was on me. But the intel that was on the computer that he didn't know me from a bar. So that looks at that and goes, well, hang on a sec, he's a club member. Yeah, And next minute I'm getting turned upside down. Which I didn't but could have and has happened in the past, turned upside down on the side of the end month.
Well see, I like what, well, you're right, you're right. But what I'm saying credit where credit stear at least the cop didn't escalade and get his back up.
You No, no, no, that's what I'm saying.
I'm not.
I'm not. I'm not sitting here saying that he did wrong and I'm not.
You make a valid point there, Like you know, we look at and I'm thinking if I was a cop pulled over, I would look at you link to OMCG and then you're thinking, oh, that that was twenty ten, that's where fourteen years ago. All right, look again and you laugh at this one after just after I was charged and it became public, I was driving with my son. I've been up to help my mother was moving. So
it was a Sunday morning. Yeah, we don't have the tickets anymore on the registration My car registrations and expired the day before. I get pulled over highway patrol and I have didn't say I think I didn't say, you know, I think you know who I am. I'm in the cops because I wasn't in the cops any well, I've been charged Joe citizen. So yeah, I just and have where you off to? And I said, I'm just coming home. Have you had anything to drink? And I had two
beers last night last at seven o'clock or whatever. It's ten o'clock in the morning, and I smell alcohol and I said, blew me and it came back negative, obviously, and he's gone, that's interesting. And then went and sat in the police car and I could see him on the phone, smiling, laughing. No doubt by that time he knows who I am and what comes back. I want to do another test, and I know I'm with him. The rights to say, you know, like enough is enough
came back. My son's sitting there. My son's an adult like he's in his twenties, sitting there in the suit. Blow it again. This cop was just humiliating me, just degrading me. I'm sitting there, just okay, don't snap, don't snap. And then he looks at my son, have you been drinking? And what? Well, that's exactly what I wanted to say, but I just let my son answer it, and no, I haven't been drinking. I'm smelling alcohol. I said, I've
just had amandain. Maybe you're smelling mandarin. The skin went on and on and talked about you know you haven't your car's not registered. I said, I'm sorry, when did the day before? I'm sorry, what are you being up to? Well, it's actually helping my mother move, not that it's any of your business. I was kept there for about fifteen minutes, fifteen twenty minutes, and I just got the shits. I said, you've had your fun. Now you write me up a ticket or just leave me alone. But I'm not playing
this game anymore. That one person just pissed me off so much. I hated cops for a long time then, just the one. And I was saying to my son there, that's why people get a bad name, like the way he was treating me. But he was having fun because now I was the ex cop or the shamed cop, and he's a little highway patrol dude that was just going to make life hard for fuck your day, yeah, and humiliate me in front of my son and for someone like me, and I understand.
And that goes back to what I said to you earlier in our chat in reference to and I get it. I get it. Look, you having intel hypothetically ill use me is a case you got intel on me. I've allegedly sold CBD oil to and undercover police officer through my Instagram. Next minute, you're kicking my door in at four point thirty quarter five in the morning, waking my kids up. The kids are freaking screaming, you know, the wife's freaking out. And I'm basically obviously well aware of
what it is that you're doing. But you're coming through like you know, a bullet at a gate for what.
Yeah, I know, and there's no need for it. Really, I don't. I don't think like I can't sit here as this innocent. I played hardball when I was in the cops, but I had my moral code. And we talk about moral codes. I think it's important bikes have moral codes. I can understand moral code that you guys might have. I might agree with it, but I can respect that. Okay, Well, if this happens, we're going to do this, blah blah blah, I understand it. But yeah,
if people power corrupts, you have power. As a biky, I think you've got power. You can walk into the pub and create all sorts of dramas. People are going to back off, and it corrupts cops have power, and power crops corrupts cops. So we're just need to check yourself.
On it sometimes.
Fair call if you had your fun with me yet.
You know, like I'm going to say, and I'm glad that we got to really just yeah, none, I'm glad we got to butt heads a bit there because I feel, like I said in the beginning, you know it needed to be had. On a serious note, though, there's there is a sort of a meeting place I guess where we're both come to. I don't even know what the word what should we call it? A happy place?
Why are you're punching your fists together?
We've still got our gloves. I remember when we jumped in the ring to have a crack at each The gloves aren't off yet. And I'm sure there's a few lesson rights you want to throw right now.
I've got one good fight.
Look, look, we're both trying to make a difference in this world today. Put aside our pass where Joe's citizens today, where you're not you're not an officer of the law. I'm not a career criminal and buy club member. What I am is a man is compassionate, caring and trying to help people in a better way through their choices of life using my lived experience as you can do as well.
Well, yeah, forgetting everything that's gone before with our difference is one thing that I think we're on the same path. And I know, like you've done your research on me before I've come here. I'm not okay, I'm stupid. Then you got me up here and I thought it was a fluffy you sing Kumbaia and you.
Know Poppa that Sai's a keeper.
Now you've done a lot, a lot of time in jail. How do you feel when you come out of jail? Are you angry or what?
Look Gary, why don't we just stop here and we'll talk about this in the next episode of the Click?
Okay? Can we also call it our Catch Killers Click and I Catch Kills? Come on, You've got to compromise, but it's.
Going out on both platforms.
This one beautiful
In nine mm