The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see aside of life the average persons never exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,
just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Today, I had a conversation with a woman named Michelle Milthorpe. Michelle found out that her daughters had been sexually assaulted by a person who is considered a trusted family friend. This man was treated like a fact our grandfather. He'd
gained the trust of the whole family. Now, what Michelle told me about the impact this pedophile had on the children, I think is going to shock you. And it was certainly deeply personal. I've seen and heard so many stories about this type of crime, and I thought they had an understanding about the impact. But Michelle's account of what
they went through really opened my eyes. The brazen and despicable way this person not only groomed the children but also the parents of the children so he could pray on these children is I don't know, it's disgusting. We also talked about how these innocent children were treated through the court process. When you hear what Michelle has to say, I think you're going to find it hard to comprehend
what happened. So here is my conversation with Michelle Milthorp, the mother of daughters who were sexually assaulted by a pedophile, as a heavy but necessary discussion. So, Michelle, it was a typical Sunday morning two thousand thirteen. You're laying in bed on a Sunday morning and your five year old daughter jumps in the bed and said, Mummy, I've got something to tell you, And then words came out that
actually changed changed your life. I think it's fair enough to say change your life that she said words the effect of Mummy, I don't like Leon licking my vagina. Now Leon was a family friend known to the family. We'll talk about more about him later, but from a mother's point of view, from your point of view, had that impact.
Oh look, it was as you say, it was just everyday Sunday morning, and we did have our kids were sleeping in our beds and we were frustrated by that. You know, you went a good night sleep anyway. Yeah, Rose said that, and yeah, it shocked me, obviously, it shocked me. I just had this moment where she said it, she repeated it for me, and I went in to what I call professional mode because I thought, you know, there's no way she could say this unless it was happening.
It's not the type of type of words the five year old would use.
No, no, And I said, oh, you know, that's not great, that's not good. You know, is there anything else that he does that you don't like? Anyway? And she went on to tell me a few other things that were going on that we had no you know, that I
had no knowledge of. And then she said, can I watch too too now, which was that ABC children's channel, So she'd sort of dropped this bomb, and then she moved on with her life really really quickly, and I think that's probably pretty indicative of, you know, how things went from there. It was like we were on this parallel track that just jumped everything about that we've sort of became before and after, you know, that very moment
for our lives. And yeah, So I went and my husband was down in another bedroom, and I went down and talked to him, and I actually couldn't speak. He thought somebody had died. When I got him, I said, you know, Roses just told me something, and I vomited. I couldn't I couldn't speak. And then I told him what she had said, and then she repeated that to him as well, and it kind of just started this amazing rollercoaster that was really really crap.
Yeah, I think that's a fair way of describing as crap. But to hear your door to say those words, and then you've got to process it, dissect the information, and then work out what to do. So what did you do.
So for me? When she said it, she actually also said and Pipper told me that he shouldn't do things like that. Old sisters eight eight and a half at the time, and Rosa just turned five. Pit was eight and a half at the time, and so I went down to Pip and I woke her up, and I said, oh, you know, Roses just said something to me that he's
a little bit concerning. And you know, she just mentioned that something was happening that she didn't like and somebody was doing things to her that she didn't like, and her entire demeanor changed. I hadn't used names, I hadn't used any information except for that, and she just withdrew into herself and she actually got her pillow and put it over her face anyway, and then I took the pillow off her face, and she just had a tear rolling down her face. And yeah, she couldn't talk. But
Pip's always been a really great writer. And I said, would it be easier for you to write down if there's something going on that you don't like? And she actually wrote yes anyway, and then she wrote it became evidence, but yeah, she just acknowledged that, yeah, things were happening to her as well.
Okay, so this is all on the Sunday Sunday morning.
Yeah.
Now you're a teacher, yeah, and so you understand like mandatory reporting also about your responsibility as a teacher not contaminating kids, evidence or leading questions, how did you spend that Sunday morning? I'm just trying to comprehend it, and I wanted to start to talk about it so people comprehend how a life can be changed in that split moment.
Look, I think so. We also have an older daughter, Maggie, and I had a conversation with her as well on that morning, and she indicated that she had no knowledge what I was talking about. And then because Leon's wife was really close with our family, you know, for us, we considered her like a pseudo grandparent for us, I didn't feel comfortable having this knowledge and not having a conversation with her because they were literally literally at our
house the day before. You know, so Brent took the girl's Brent, my husband, took the girls to the park, and I invited her around just to have a chat and to help me choose address.
You know, I just like that was the way that you invited. Just so people understand when we refer to Leon and Jen, Leon being Jen's partner, that's not their real names because there's a cord order out, But can you describe what relationship, how they fitted into the family family situation.
Yeah, Look, we moved to Aubrey from Kutamundra. I grew up in Kutemundra. We moved down to Aubrey when Maggie, I eldest, was eight weeks old, and I went back to work about six months after that and needed somebody to help, yeah, look after the kids. And we found Jen. She was a lady who was happy to to help us out with that, and she became like our family.
She was retired at that point, she'd been retired for about a year, but she was still taking care of Rose for us a couple of days a week and you know, whoever away, she would look after the girls.
And so how long had you known Jen and Leon?
For?
Ten years? Ten years? And I know in the document you wrote about that, I've got to say it was very very powerful the way you put the words down on how this since impacted on you. But Leon was looked on almost like a de facto grandfather. Yeah, I think if I remember rightly, he would go to the school for Grandparents' Day yea, and things like that.
Yeah, do all those things, go to dancing concerts you know with Jen and Yeah, So they were they were essentially like grandparents, you know. Then they say, when you move town's friends of the family, you make for yourself, and that's sort of what we felt like we had with them, and to you know, some of their family members as well. So yeah, it was.
Yeah, so there's a shock and just trying to articulate what you're going through there. You've got the horror of what your your daughters have said to you, and then the betrayal of trust with Leon and Jen. And this is a Sunday morning, and you can't just sit with this. This is not the situation where you can just sit and ponder. So you'll invite the Jen over to your over to your house on the pretense of picking out the dress or yeah.
And look, I did it that way. And I actually got accused of being deceiving in court because I said that I had done it in that way.
Don't worry, we'll be talking about later on.
But I did it that way because he Jen had always been around to our house. You visited, and he didn't really come around in my mind, he was Jen's husband. Jen looked after our kids.
That was a family case.
Yeah, yeah, and yeah, so I he had been coming around more frequently, which it was fine, but it was just different. And I didn't want him to be there, obviously for obvious reasons. So I invited Jen around and their daughter. They came around and I spoke to her and I told her exactly what Rose had said, and I showed her what Pipa had written. And I thought she would be angry. I thought she'd have a goal
at me. I think if someone said that to me about someone I loved, my first reaction would be to defend. She didn't. Yeah, her reaction was, oh my god, Oh my godly and what have you done? What have you done to our girls?
So the conversation that it must have been difficult when confronting how long did it go on for?
Look that was she was probably there for about ten minutes, and then she actually went and got him. So she left and went and picked him up and brought him back to the house.
You're there on your own, but Brent's got the girls.
Girls.
Yeah, okay, what happened when he came back?
So he came back in and I could hear him on the way in, you know, saying, oh, this is ridiculous, this is ridiculous, And you know, he walked into the back room of our house. And I was just sitting there and I you know, I think he saw the look on my face, and yeah, he sort of backpedaled a little bit because he could say that you know, we were taking it. You know that it was ridiculous.
And he was saying, oh, you know, you can't believe this, you can't believe it, and you know, just he was unreasonable. His shirt was inside out. I still just remember that his shirt was inside out, because the most ridiculous thing to remember. But you know, I was just the thing. I was like, oh my god, your shirt's inside out. You didn't e put you shirt on properly?
Well, his little dirty secrets finally, yeah, the sounds of it.
Yeah, And anyway, he sort of sat down and I just said, and he's trying to can vince me that this is a lie. You know, this isn't true, Michelley, this can't be true. And I just said to him, tell me why, And I said no, Actually, I said, can you tell me how how Rose could know that that happens without it happening. I need you to tell me that, because if you can tell me that, then this can all go away. Anyway. Then he was like faint and he needed a drink, and I just said,
I just think you need to go anyway. So he left and his wife left with him, and then the daughter stayed, and then the wife came back in and got the daughter and left, and then she came back again. The wife came back again, Jen came back again, and she just said to me, She goes, what are we going to do? I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. And I just said, well,
you know what I have to do. And so and I had, actually, and I don't know why I did what I did, but I had packed up everything that she gave me. So I had a casserole dish because she'd made some dinner for us a couple of weeks early. And you know, she gave me a necklace for my birthday. I put all these things and just gave them to her because I just didn't Yeah, I.
Think an understandable move, like I want it's probably subconsciously I want you out of my life. I don't want to have anything to do with you. So what are we going to do? What are we going to do? I suppose the question the obvious answer, as you said, well, what do you think we're going to do. Yeah, of course, it's a matter that it's got to be reported. Okay,
so you've dealt with that. I'm just trying to get a sense of it because reading what you wrote down about it, and it was a long Yeah, it was a condensed version of a book you describing this, but I've got to say, it's so confronting. But the way you articulated and what I hope people that listen today this is the impact that it's not. I think when we see on the news, we see o pedophiles being charged,
ten kids have been assaulted, that type of thing. Happy to see people being caught, but we don't understand the ramifications and the flow on the fact that there's a ripple effect that goes with this type of crime, isn't there?
Yeah, yeah, look there is. And you know it was that was sort of early in the day. I think we'd probably got up to about eleven thirty by this point, and Brent bought the girls back home. I'd made a phone call to the girls' school principal, and I think that subconsciously that was my way of not having to make the report. Okay, yep, I didn't want to have to make the report.
Man, the story report it. So, yeah, brought to the attention of the school, yep.
Yeah. And so she came around that afternoon, and I actually can't really remember what happened while she was there. You know, I was asked questions about that again during the trial, and I can't remember. I can tell you everything that happened in the morning, but that I think I sort of handed over the rain for about forty minutes because I just needed to not think. And then we called the police, and we also called good a couple of good friends who came in and got Maggie.
How old was Maggie at the time. She was only ten, Okay, so we're looking at five eight and ten.
Yeah, yeah. And she went with friends of ours. They had no idea what they were doing there. They knew that something had happened, and they just came and got her and took her to their house and went and did fun things, and we waited for the police to come. And you know, in my naivity or ignorance or whatever it is, I think everyone's the same, though in this situation,
I didn't realize it. You called the police around, and that's just the first responders that they weren't going to talk to the girls that you know, we started this journey.
That was well, I think it's interesting to explain this to people, and just so people understand what the processes are because by understanding that, the I won't say it makes it easier, but you've got an appreciation of the step by step. So you call the police, you call the local police, they'll send the a viable car crew round. So whoever's on the car crew will come around and knock on the door. Yet, how can I help you? And you explain that situation, So take us through what happened then.
Yeah, So they came around and I assumed that they would want to speak to the girls and they said, oh, no, like we're not allowed to talk to the girls. There's a team that do that. And I was like okay, and I said, well, what do you need from us? And you know, they said, oh, we need to talk to you and your husband. So and they just took the initial report. And you know, while we were doing that, Brent was understandably just upset. We both were. I was pacing,
like I think I looked like a mad woman. I was pacing up and down the laundroom and just saying to these poor poor guys, you know, it's not like we sit here watching porn. It's not like we do. Like I was just saying the most random things. Whatever's coming to.
My head, the things that you running through your mind. How would my girls at that age talk about these type of things? Where did they get that?
I wanted? I wanted there to be a reason other than what it was.
From from the mother's point of view, I can fully understand that that you'd be looking for. No, this is just a horrible mistake.
And yeah, yeah, anyway, and this this big burly police officer was sitting there, and you know, I'm ranting walking back and forward, and I just looked at him and I stopped because he just had a tear. And he said, no, it happened, because it happened. It just happened. And yeah, anyway, they were great, and Brent sort of got up and walked out. We didn't even recognize one of the police officers was someone he'd played footy with, Like, we just
didn't even recognizing. That's a state that we were in at the time. Yeah, so they they came in, they said, look, you know someone will be in touch with you from the child abuse squad. Didn't know that was one of those you know, someone to be in touch with you and yeah, and we'll get back, And so I just assumed that the next morning we'd have a phone call or that even that afternoon, and we sort of got We took the girls to school the next day. Okay, yeah we did.
And like taking the girls to school. But I would imagine that the balancing neck that you've got as a parent is this has happened, that it's got to be followed up, and we've got to address this, but you've also got kids. Kids have got to get on with her life. That's that's a difficult, difficult part of juggling.
I beat myself up about that for a little taking them, yeah, for taking them to school, because there was part of me that was I just did it because that's what you did. You know, at school, We're going to school. And then the school counselor is actually something that I had gone to school with and she met me on the playground and took me into a room and I lost it, and you know, it's like I can't believe I bought them here, you know, And just like they're
safe here. You know, they're safe here, They've got their friends here. You know, it's okay. And it wasn't until a few months later that I sort of was processing it again and a counselor said to me, she said, look, you know, I can see that this is really troubling you, she said, but you need to understand and give yourself a bit of a break. So that day, your kid's life got better. It was your life that changed.
Yeah, that was an interesting Yeah, I wrote that down. That was an interesting, interesting twist.
And it kind of gave me a bit of grace. So I sort of could sit with that and be okay with it, even though I still can't believe I did it.
Well. I think there's a balancing between if you didn't let the kids go to school, they've reported something that I'm sure he told them not to tell anyone and all that if they've reported that and then you stop them going to school, they might think, oh, that's right,
Look I've done wrong. It's so confusing for kids understanding what's going on with this before we move on, So we'll just pause it at that point where the girls have disclosed this to you, you've spoken to the perpetrator, you've spoken to the wife of the perpetrator, and you've informed the police. Describe the girls, because you talk about that your life prior and then then post describe the girls to me and the family life that you were living up until that point.
Look, we had a really what seemed to be an ideally life, really I call it. We were living the Australian dream. You know. We were both working, We had a home that was lovely, We had a great group of friends. We participated in sport. The girls played sport. They you know, they did their dancing and they did their basketball. Yeah, we wore to skied, you know, we did all the you know, really fun you know, typical things. I'm glad the girls were the age they were when
this came out. It's ridiculous as it sounds, because in terms of our family and probably Brennan and my relationship too, we're in that good space.
You know.
The kids could do things a little bit independently. We could have a conversation, you know, all those things that you can't do when your kids are really little. But yeah, we just had a typical, a really a good life. We were happy and We had Mags who was quiet and shy but really creative and caring, and you know, the best big sister, Pip was spirited. You know, they
were the words that we used about her. And she was that kid that would dress herself and I would have parents say, I can't believe you let her leave the house like that, but she thought she looked amazing and she wore it well. And Rose was just everybody's friend, you know, she she was Yeah, that was just the way she was. She could talk to adults, she could talk to children, and she you know, she was just great.
Well, you've described the type of life that most of us aspired to it and you're going along happily and then this this kicks in. So I think people often when the police are called them the way that you articulated, you thought, Okay, the police are here, Now everything's going to happen straight away, and that saw that out and all that. It's so far from the case. It's not funny, isn't it.
Yeah, And almost like having the ideally life was almost a curse because as far as the police were concerned and as far as you know, social services and all of those things who were involved our kids were safe.
So the child at risks all people out and you.
Know, which is great, but we didn't realize that that meant they Yeah, they go to the bottom of the pile, so to speak, you know, And and it's it's actually quite confronting to understand that you do get needed, you do have to go to the bottom of the pub because there is so much need.
Yeah. Well, it's just synonymous with how many kids are sexually abused.
Yeah. Yeah, and people don't know it. They just don't know it.
People don't know it. I'm seeing it more and more, and that when we're having the conversation the other day, I was speaking to you about the podcast series I did in prison and the amount of the people I met in prison that were victims of childhood sexual abuse and it just perpetuates and they carry that for the rest of their life and often make poor life choices based on what's happened with your your story. I think it was eight days before the police actually came and interviewed the children.
Yeah, and it wasn't you know. That was another thing about living regionally too. I think was a bit of an issue there because we knew the lead detective from child abuse squad, so we couldn't well, it was better not to be interviewed by him, so there was no conflict of interest. So we had to wait for somebody else to come back from holidays as well, so there
was a bit of a wait time there. So for us and for the girls, particularly Pippa, who was spirited and had this really strong sense of justice, it was like, well, I told you this thing. I no longer get to see Jen, and you know everything that he said was true. People don't believe you. People don't want to talk about it, and I'm not going to I'm not going to talk to the police. They've waited too long.
That would break your heart as a parent hearing that and explaining that peop is concerned about not seeing Jen. That was because Jen was such a prominent part in their life and mister creepy or Leon has put it in their heads that if you talk about this, all bad things are going to happen. And she's saying that there's exactly and true and did you notice see their
behavior in that? And I'm talking like I'm sure the further impacts and the way the matter went through court from telling you was there a change in the kids now that they bought it out in that week waiting for the police.
For Rose, Rose had this, it was like she'd been given permission to say whatever, you know, So the damn wall had broken, and she didn't have an understanding of you know, every time she was telling me something, the impact that it was having, I was. I was really grateful and glad that she could she could talk about it, but it was really hard to listen to.
So she now that she's comfortable telling you what's happened, and she's revealing you details that no parent would want to hear, I would imagine.
Yeah, that's it for Pippa. She she was sort of old enough to start feeling bit of shame and a bit of embarrassment, think you could say, and then that real angry No one cares anyway, Why did we tell because everything's changed, you know, everything's changed. We don't get to see Jen anymore. But no one even cares because no one's you know. So so she and she really withdrew and was a little bit angry that Rose had
told us. Maggie she didn't really understand what was going on for the girls because obviously we didn't tell her what they told us, but she was angry with them because her life changed too. So she didn't get to see Jen either, and she didn't know her, you know, she she didn't know anyone but her like for her, Jen was as close as any family member.
Another difficult part I would imagine is that because you're trying to protect the children from contamination their evidence. Yeah, and you're aware of that from what you would have given knowledge as a school teacher. But I'm just trying to imagine the family dynamics. You'd want to sit down with the whole family and talk it through and let them support each other and all that I can't that wasn't available to So it just adds another layer to it, doesn't it.
Yeah, And look, that's one of the you know, we found out since that that's one of the things that they use in court to try and separate cases, which is tricky, and Brent was probably a little bit more savvy about that than I was. He just said, you know, they can't talk to one another about this, which, yeah, like, in hindsight, that was a really great thing in terms of the court, but as you say, for them, and it probably was difficult for them in their own relationship with one another.
Yeah, And I would imagine as a child being told you can't talk about this is almost inferring the you've done something wrong in their minds. I would imagine that type of narrative if it's been fed to them that they would have felt, well, why can't I talk I've done nothing wrong? And then well you can't tell your sister or talk to people about it. So it's such a complex situation. We've talked about the impact with your daughters, what about yourself and your husband?
This is yeah, Look, and I know it was something when I wrote a blog that isn't publicly available anymore, just because.
It's and that's a document I'm referring to. And I might add, like I read that, I was angry, sad, and full of mixed emotions. It was such a revealing account of what you guys have been.
For well, as I said, I hadn't read it since for a little while. I read it on my way it made me cry, Oh dear, I haven't done this
for a while. But look, I think for me it was that experience to you know, to write down some of these things was experience for me just to get my thoughts out on paper, because you know, how do you talk to people about this sort of stuff, And you know, even just in terms of intimacy with with ya husband, I did not want to be touched because I'm hearing these things and sex was made dirty, you know, and because of what was happening and what we were hearing. And when I say we, it was it was me,
like the girls were telling me. So that was a really you.
Know, say side that I hadn't thought when I'm talking about your blog in that it really made me think about the why their impact because I hadn't even considered that the parents of the child that's been sexually sold and then intimacy becomes a problem. But it's so understandable why you'd be thinking, not why all this is going on?
Well, Brent would be mortified and the girls would be worse because I'm talking about it, but it is a reality, and that's not something that anyone would have told us about. And that's why I did write it down at the time, because I thought, well, you know, this is something I wish someone had said. You know, it's totally normal to not ever feel like doing that again, you know, when you're hearing these things that you know. But then you
start going, well, that's not what that was. That was somebody exerting power.
It's abuse.
Yeah, yeah, so you know in the ration of brain kicks in, isn't you.
But then there was another thing. And again I apologize if Brent doesn't want to hear this, but I mean in support of him on this is that when we'll keep it in the chronological order how the investigation evolved. But I'm talking generally when people are finding out the comments from other Blakes. If someone did that to my kid, I'd kill them, or I'd do this, I'd do that, And I would imagine if that was kept the response that Brent would have got. And that's a very blaky
thing to say. And I know, yeah, so many Blakes would be saying saying the same thing. You'd start be looking at yourself going, well, why aren't I feel like killing him? Which he probably did feel like killing him, But as you articulate that he's a sensible, rational, reasonable person, that's not going to achieve anything there. But it's just another layer, isn't it. Like Brent would be thinking, well, all these people thinking I'm weak because I haven't gone around them bash this, but he had.
Some really interesting thoughts, and again, like it's one of those things that in hindsight we've spoken about. But he said if he had a dollar for every time someone
said that, it would be rich. But the other thing was that he was reluctant to have kids stay at our house because he worried that people would think that he was perpetrated and you know, things that he knew that that was an irrational thought because you know, obviously he was still living in our home and all of those things, but it made him think about his role
as a man a little bit differently. But yeah, I loved and I love looking back and seeing that for him it was about getting around and going into that real protection mode rather than I'm really pleased that he didn't do anything, you know, because that would have just made everything a whole lot harder.
Well, actually, and this is a compliment to him and what I took away from it, he showed himself to be a man and the way he supported you guys and protected these daughters. But yeah, a.
Lot of people commented that it was unusual. So people who've worked in their space in child protection or in child to be squad. They commented on, you know how unique it was to have both of us so involved in the process, and so we were lucky, And I say we were lucky.
It's interesting you say that, but I think you're probably right on that, because I see a lot of men pull away from it's too confronting, and I'm here supporting you but not really supporting.
Yeah, he didn't really have a choice.
All right, I'm trying to give him credit and.
It was great.
No, you're only joking. So, okay, eight days it's taken. The police have turned up. Did they get the statements at home or did they take them away to the station. So all this is just flipping young kids' lives upside down, isn't it? So what tell us the process there?
So the process was we had to find the turtle door, which was a door at the police station that was the child abuse squad. So we ended up turning it into a game, which is probably deliberate from you know, the people that worked there. So we found the turtle door. Pitt was adamant, she was not going to speak, not going to say anything they don't want to hear if they wanted to hear they would have been here a
week ago. You know, all that sort of stuff that is stubb an eight and a half year old would say. And anyway, so we went in and we met the detective and it was detective. It was Glenn, the detective, and he he sort of talked to us, and the
girls were there. They were just sort of playing and you know, there was a police hard and Rose had that on and you know, all these things and he said, you know, he said to us, you know, I just want to give you a heads up before we start that you know, nine times out of ten this doesn't go anywhere. And he said it's not because we don't believe the kids, it's because of what we need to be able to prove to put them through the process. Anyway, that just annoyed me. I was really angry about that.
And Brent just said, yeah, well, you know, you haven't met pepper Mill forp yet. Yeah, and he knew she could hear. He said, she is really good at telling the truth and making sure that she's protecting other kids, so you know, and he sort of just said it like that. And anyway, so we sat in this waiting room with a really lovely person. So there was the joint investigative response to you amount the time people from Yes, it's the police, community health and it was docs at
the time, whenever they've decided to be now community justice. Yeah, anyway, so that's who was there. Another issue because we knew a lot of people that worked in that space too.
Again, from what you put down in writing, the country town presents its same problems. You're not anonymous and you know people, what are you at the police station for? Why an't the kids turning up at school? Why aren't the kids? Yeah, it's hard to hard to hide. And the sad part is there should be no shame to it. But it's just such a complex situation, isn't it.
Yeah, that's it. Yeah. So you know, and we're sitting there and we're putting our kids in this. You know that they take them. So your kids go and they get interviewed by Australia and.
I'm not present. That's terrifying.
And to this day I have never heard what they said. I don't know what they said. And Rose and I were only discussing it a few days ago and she said, I can't, like I know what happened, but I can't remember what I said, and she said, I just have blocked it out.
Did they video interview?
Yeah they did, so they videoed them. Yeah, so then that happened. It took a couple of hours to go through both the girls, so Pitt went first and then Rose went afterwards. And then we sort of got called into a room and somebody else was, you know, with kids playing doing their thing. We got called into a room and that the team were there, and you know, Glenn was sort of just sitting there really quietly. You know,
someone was telling me how well the girls did. Other girls did so well, you know, great, I'm so glad they could speak about this. It was. It was weird. It's like, am I meant to be proud? I don't know what to feel here, Like, oh, that's good.
It's just such a surreal sitution.
It is. And Brent was very quiet and Glenn was very quiet, and then he just sort of like hit the desk and he said, I'm charging him, and the other two sort of looked quite surprised, and he said, nah, I'm charging him. We've got enough anyway, And that was sort of, you know, that was that sort of thing, and you know, they said, oh, you know, he never does that. He never does these. Yeah, so that happened, and then it was still I think it was another
two weeks or so until he was arrested. Probably even longer. It was probably three weeks. So we were just in this real I called it a holding pattern. It felt like there were a number of holding patterns in the process because we didn't know the process. We didn't know how quickly things would move, and also slowly things would move. And I think the thing is that for a lot of people, they know what's going on because they do it all the time, but forget to share that knowledge.
Yeah, I think that not a criticism but advice with policing if you keep the victims informed. And I think and I've been guilty of it myself as a police officer. So you think this is a norm, you'll understand that these things take time. But most people, most decent people and people are victims of crime, haven't come in contact with police. You know, there's so many decent people out there that don't come into contact with police. So this is a world that you're you're not familiar with. Yeah,
what was going through the girls minds? With all this like it's I'm looking at the assaults have happened, the trauma that's associated with that, telling you and then all of a sudden they're dragged into a world that's almost incomprehensible.
Yeah, and look, I think, you know, it is one of those things where you have to ask them, so think. But you know, we obviously have had conversations and through that advocacy that we've done that they have shared their views on it. Rose is interesting because you know, she she has said before, you know, I had this man doing things to me and saying, you can't tell anybody, You can't tell anybody, and then I had people saying you have to tell me everything. And it was, you know,
trying to balance that out. And again strangers and people who who she didn't know. Glenn's one of Rose's favorite people in the world.
Yeah, well, full full credit to them if they're special people, the detectives that work there.
But she still couldn't she still couldn't tell him, you know, and again he was a stranger at the beginning. But yeah, it was still really difficult, and she didn't have a language, she didn't have a language for it. So yeah, she kind of looked like she was just getting on with things, and she was quite funny. She came up to me. We've been at a baptism, were outside the church afterwards, just standing around chatting, and she ran over to me and she goes, oh, I've just kept like these two girls.
I've just kept these two girls safe. And I'm like, what do you mean how have you kept them safe? And she said, well, I told them that you can't let people liki vaginas.
We're laughing, and I think it's probably the only way that it's how old she.
Oh that was. It was just in the weeks after Okay.
So those yeah, okay, this is how how complex it gets, isn't it. It's because it's such an unnatural situation to find yourself in. Yeah, and you've got kids with their little children in minds, trying to comprehend what's going on. And she thinks she's done well. And you can imagine the girls going back and telling their parents.
I know, so it sort of it forced this conversation. So you know, you know, I just told them you can't let people do these things to you, and very graphically, and I was just thinking, oh, dear, anyway, So I did have to have a conversation. Fortunately, one of the girls mum's was a good friend of mine and she'd sort of helped. She'd stepped into that role, you know, straight after she got really practical. She was great and said, I will look after Rose on these days until she
goes to school, and you will do this. And yeah, she was great in that way, so she already knew. But this other poor mom, she had no idea, you know. But Rose, you know, went into that oh, well, you know, I can protect people. So she had that very like it was a very childlike innocence. Still. Yeah, so Rose went into that protection mode and I think that's just the way she is, and that's the way she'll always be. Pipa with Drew.
Yeah, and that's sad, isn't when the kids internalizing, Yeah things could be a moment.
Yeah, she Withdrew just got these very vibrant blue eyes and they're dull.
Sorry, you don't have to be sorry. I'll just put a bit of light on it that I've seen the means of you the recent as an older children talking about the advocacy that they're doing. You're going to be proud of them.
Oh, absolutely, beautiful, articulate girls. Yeah, and look, I think you know that was part of the part of the difficulty for all of them. And as I said, Mags, Mags was great. She understood why things happened the way they did. She hated that our whole life changed because of what happened. But she's always been really supportive of the girls and always protective too, very honest. But I think not being able to tell her friends or not be able to talk about why it was, she felt sad.
So she looked like this siok, you know, she looked like this sook and the kids didn't know why, and yeah, it was just it was rough.
It's a live in hell, isn't it. It's a live in hell? And so many things that counterintuitive to kids have come out and told you. But you can't tell your friends like they don't know the intricacies of a legal system and why you can't discuss it with other people. It's just so difficult for them.
And we did actually approach a couple of parents, and this is no disrespect to them at all, just to say, would it be possible for to share a little bit of what's happened, not in detail, just so that there was a bit more understanding, and they said, oh, we would prefer our kids not to know that that sort
of thing happens, and are seeing me too. Yeah, And you know, how fortunate that they didn't have to deal with that, because sometimes I think it is just a bit of luck, like we never expected this to be our story.
Sitting down and talking now, and this is importance of getting this out. People got to understand. This is the nature of the crime, the insidious way that people, they pray, they manipulate situations to get to vulnerable, vulnerable children. Another thing that you were going through and your husband was second guessing yourself, like the red flags that you line them all up with the benefit of pine sight, How did you miss this? How did you miss that? Tell
us about some of the red flags in isolation. I wouldn't think anything of it either, But these are the type of things if we achieved something here, have people look out for these type of things because they seem innocent on the surface, but just little things that when you look back and think, okay, was what was happening there?
So I think one of the first things was repeat UTIs so you're new tract in factions are. Remember the pediatrician saying to me, is there any chance that anything has happened to the girls, And what do you mean? And anyway he said it, he said, I said it again, and I was just like no, Like I couldn't think of anybody. You couldn't think of anybody in our life because to me, Jen was looking after our girls. I
never he wasn't a consideration in my mind. So there was that very quiet and Shy was one of one of the girls not wanting to stay over there anymore. Incontinents, We had incontinents. There was some inappropriate touching that happened one time that I recalled and it was like, oh, no, you can't do that. Because I was that parent and was saying you're not allowed to let people touch you. Your vagina is private. I was doing that and I was using the word but you know again, that's the
way these people operate. So yeah, there were lots of little flags. Rose and this is sort of a well known story. Now, she wanted me to make her a cape. So I made her this superhero cape. She was super Rose and she wanted her superpower to be invisible. And I was like, all right, Well, we'll see how we go, you know. So we made this cape and it was, you know, fabulous cape. And she brought it home from their house one day and she put it on the ground and stomped on it. I was like, what are
you doing and she said, it doesn't work. Yeah, And I said, what do you mean it doesn't work? And then she said he still found me. I was like, who's still founding and she said, oh, Leon and I you know, at the time, I was like, oh, they must have been playing hard and seek did not even
give it. And that's the other thing I've had to very deliberately, even though I can look at these things and put them all together, I very deliberately decided that I can't live in that because it would drive me crazy. Brent went to pick Rose up one day and he actually, in hindsight, when I think I interrupted something, either it was just about to happen, or it had just happened because he turned up at a time that he didn't usually.
So he's advice to people who's always don't be too regular, you know, don't be too regular, don't be too obvious.
We want to make it hard for these people. But they're very skilled manipulators, and.
They manipulate our whole family and.
That's what they that's how they get access to the children. The victim describe describe him like describe the top of person. That is.
I didn't particularly like him. I really liked Jen, Like the minute I met her. I really liked her. He was very confident, a bit smug, a bit of a know it all. I think you would say he was a know it all. I know that people around the town liked Jen, tolerated him. He was nice enough, he was great with the kids. The kids loved him. They did, you know, they did, because you know, he'd play puzzles with them and he'd you know, do this and that. Yeah,
he was just he was just kind of there. And as I said, he was Rose adored him.
She did I. And it's such a difficult situation because, yeah, there's more decent people out there than there are creeps like M so everyone can't be tarnish. But I can talk from a man's point of view. There's relatives that, Okay, you'll be in situations where you're looking after a kid on your own, but I wouldn't feel comfortable looking after a child on my own. That's not I'm not related to.
And I know there's a lot of bad things that happen within families, but I think from a I have a concern when I see someone and it might be that family or just a party of gathering and someone's always down in the backyard playing, playing, just with the kids. I'm not thinking that's adults tend to want to gravitate towards adults. Yeah, you can be friendly the kids, you can like kids, but anyone's constantly wrestling with kids or ah, look,
I can look after and make an excuse. I think we've got to look out for those those And.
It's interesting because it was the day before they came around to our house and Pippa. We sort of had a big room and then we had like a playroom off that with massive doors. Yes, quite open, but we had a couch around the corner, and Brandon said, I went around the corner of the couch, and now that I look at I know something was not okay.
Getting the benefit of the benefit of hindsight.
So he was getting and that was the thing. I think what was happening. He was getting more, He's taking more risks. I think and doing things that were hurting, physically hurting, and that's why it had to stop.
Yeah, I think, and not just talking your case, but any case, if there's doubts or whatever, hindsight, it's a wonderful thing looking back. But quite often, yeah, little things like that, if someone spending a lot of time with kids that are not their own, I'm a little bit wary of it and thinking, what's going on here? This is and we've got it because it happens so much. That's it sickens me. The figures of how many kids are sexually abused.
Well, we didn't have we didn't realize how much time he had with them on his own. Like again, for us, our kids were going and being looked after by Jen. It wasn't until we found out what was happening. You know. She would sometimes be upstairs and he'd be downstairs, and you know, and that sort of seems to be where
things were happening. And you know, one of the saddest things that Pip said to me was that they were there one day and she Maggie was upstairs with Jen and she and Rose were downstairs with him, and Maggie said, oh, come up lunches ready, and he said, Pip, you go up Rose and I'll stay here for a bit. And Pip said, no, Rose can go up because she knew what he was going to do, and like.
What a girl protecting a little Yeah so something special, isn't she?
Yeah? Yeah, so you know that happened and that Yeah again, as you say, hindsight, but I can't dwell on that. I can't live in that. It would drive me mad.
There's something about child sexual abuse that we have really got to work this out because there's no excuse for it, there's no mitigation, and it destroys lives.
It destroys lives.
And another aspect before we just finish up here in part one, that part of the problem that you had, and we touched on it, but just how it played out. You were concerned that whilst this matter was being investigated, they had access to other children and you were waiting for risk assessments to be done. But there was a period of time over months where a risk assessment wasn't done and they still or Leon still had ACCEP actually access to children. That must have played on you.
Well, I had, I was really naive. I was I just thought that the police would go and you know, interview these other people to make sure I'll let them know that there was a risk. And then, you know, Glenn explained to me that they can't do that because obviously then that can interfere with case downtrack blah blah blah. But that docs could because and you know, I'm saying, well, I'm a mandatory reporter and I'm letting you know that there is a risk, there's a real risk to these.
Kids, and that must have troubled you. At what point do you go, well, stuff for the rules, stuff, what we're meant to do. I've got to tell such and such mother that well.
I actually had a friend be a little bit harsh, which I'm pleased that she did. Yeah, yeah, it was good, but because I kept getting told it was oh, you know, it's going to be done, it's going to be done. But it was kind of getting past around. It was like this you know, political football being passed around, and no one wanted to take responsibility for what needed to happen. And so my friend said to me, she said, Michelle, if you had this knowledge about my children and you
didn't tell me, I'd be really pissed. How did that land on me?
You know this?
And this was like a few months later, and I'm thinking, how does this land on me?
Your life has been literally turned upside down. Everything you thought was writing life has been flipped.
I was really concerned that people wouldn't believe us.
Yeah, it was, well, it's again the nature of the crime. Because of this, say, confronting, people choose not to even engage in that. Now it couldn't be happening. Who knows. Let the courts so they don't have an opinion on it. It's heavy, heavy stuff, isn't it the way way it impacts We're going to have a break and we're talking. If people think this is the end of the story, this is just the beginning of the story of what you guys had to go through for the next couple
of years. The system lets us down, doesn't it. It drags on like the slow of justice.
Yeah, but if you jump up and down hard enough, you can make some changes.
Well, that's why I like getting people on the podcast that do jump up and down, because they're the ones
that make the changes. And you've got to scream from the rooftop sometimes and yeah, okay, enough said, I think we're giving a hint of what we're going to talk about in the second part, but just before we finish up, I know how hard this is talking about it, and in the conversation I've had with you prior to sitting down here, it's important people talk about it because I think this crime is allowed to flourish because people don't
talk about it. And I want people listening to your story because that's what I got from the lengthy document that you created, how much it impacts on lives.
Yeah. Look, it's one of my firsts, and particularly being an educator, I don't think schools talk about it enough. You know, we have National Child Protection Week and there's schools that don't even acknowledge it. There's a lot of work that needs to be done, and you know, we need to put the shame where it belongs.
Good way to finish Part one. Ye, put the shame where it belongs. Okay, we'll have a break and we'll back shortly.