The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side of life the average person has never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome back to part three of my chat. We've retired Detective Chief Inspector Pamela Young. If you missed the first couple of episodes, we got to learn a little bit about Pam's career and some of the interesting investigations that
she led. You'd also found out what goes on in the home of too highly strung homicide detectives because we lived together for quite some time. Now we're going to talk about an investigation that I think, Pam and full credit to you, I say it upfront, the family law court bombings. It was something that was a blight on our state or even the country, that judicial offices being targeted. So the significance of the investigation should never be understated.
I'll let you talk us through that investigation. You became involved later in the investigation because it was a reinvestigation, and that I want you to take us right through that investigation because I think it's a fascinating story in itself. But we'll delve into the dark areas. We're also going to delve into the interesting areas because it's not often that you get two people in a podcast that were
both homicide detectives and lived together. I was taught very early in my career, policing career, not to ask questions that you don't know the answers to. But I'm going to throw caution to the win and I've got two questions for you. You can choose which one you answer first. What was the best thing about living with me? And what was the worst thing about living with me? And please be kind?
Oh well, I'll be efficient, So I'll deal with the shorter of those two, which is the bad things. So I was first indeared to you when you came up with something that you thought would make me like you after I had rejected you.
This is interesting because I.
Said, I don't think we've got much in common other than work, because and I'm more into arts and cultural things and you're a sports person. True, so there was a delay with us getting together, but then you found a play on boxing.
I still think that's one of the better players I've ever seen. That was a great call.
Wasn't it really clever because I don't think there'd ever been a play on boxing before that or since, But you just found one. You've researched and hunted it down, and you invited me to play. So I got my arts and you got your sport because of play on boxing. So I thought that was a big tick.
Well, I'm glad that there was something I like plays but it was Yeah, we were we had different interests, but you broadened my scope on the on things. I'm not sure how how much I broadened your your scope on different things, but yeah, I do have an interest in the theater now and have continued that on I still to this day haven't been able to find another one about boxing, but keep looking looking out for it. Okay. So that was the highlights of living.
With me, So I do have other little things on the list. So very are you, very passionate and generous lover jubilin.
I expect that, but thank you. I'll take take a compliment.
The bonus was you also were very good at cleaning the house, so that combined combination was perfect.
Well, as they say, behind every good woman, there's a little man in the house. That was that was my role.
Oh and there's something else. It was seeing you be such a good father to your children. I believe their names are in public.
Yeah we can talk about them.
And seeing them bring out a soft affection and giggles in you that no one else in the whole world could.
Well that that actually means a lot, because people perception of me when I was in the police at least was not much fun in this life, but just a serious hard ass. But yeah, you've gone into an area that's and it affects so many people too. You come into the life and I bring a little bit of baggage. I've got two kids, but you're a good influence on them too, so I'll compliment you, compliment you there. You do realize we're having this conversation for all the public to listen. We better move on.
Okay, so let's not forget that second question.
Right, I was going to move straight into the family law corpse bombs. Okay.
What was the problems living with so definitely the fact that every time we were having sex your phone would ring. It certainly felt like every time, which you can understand, you know, busy cases and on call and all that, But it was the fact that you answered it, Jubilan, that is unforgivable and disrespectful and very disappointing. So that's the top of the negative list.
They were important phone calls half the time they were informants.
Oh when the other activity wasn't thank you.
For that in the hull anyway, Yep, I regret that, Pam. I apologize. I publicly said I apologize for answering the phone whilst having sex.
I really didn't take to the distance we had to live away from the office for you to be close to your children. I understood why it was important, but I didn't like it physically because I'm not a morning person. So the other good thing about living with you was how you would wake me up gently. It seemed like middle of the night pretty well. Was you'd dressed me, carry me to the car, tuck a little package of vegemite toast in my briefcase for when I woke up.
I'm surprised you realized we lived a long way from the office, because you slept the whole time and I just woke up when we're driving into.
The car p yeah, yeah, yeah, And the toast had gone cold by then.
I wrapped it in foil. I tried to keep it warm best. But okay, well, yeah, interesting times if you want to get an insight into what it's like. And we'll talk a little bit more about the precious von call, living in the household where people like the phone call can dictate your life for the next couple of months, so you don't know where you're going to head. Let's get off the personal stuff for a bit and family
law court bombing. Can you give us an overview of that if people are not for me with the particular case.
Yes. So it was a series of three murders and five bombings that occurred between nineteen eighty and nineteen eighty five in Sydney, mostly targeting the Family Court of Australia. It was my first deployment out of the academy to guard the homes of judges, along with a lot more professional and experienced hundreds of others. Huge resources went into it and it was the last case that I was asked to solve. By chance, there's that link, So that's
a nice yeah, yeah, yeah, so yes. So the crimes started in nineteen eighty with Justice Opus being shot as he answered his door at close ranged by an unknown offender. Then four years later, oh by the way, his children and wife were home of course at the time. Four years later, a bomb is placed on the doorstep of Justice g another judge of the Family Court. The bomb went off in the middle of the night took down most of his house in which he and his two
children were sleeping. Fortunately and unexpectedly they survived, of course injured and scarred, but survived. Then within a short period after that and there was a bomb placed at the courthouse at Paramatta, so the Family Court of Australia courthouse. It was placed near a supporting pillar, so if it had been more successful quite possibly could have taken down most of that rink. Fortunately no one was injured. Then then there's a lovely woman, Pearl Watson. She was the
wife of another Family Court justice Ray Watson. She did what she usually does in the morning when her husband is just finishing packing his briefcase. She went to open her front door to wave to the government driver. So they all had drivers for good reason. She was intending to waive to say, you know, he'll be out soon. She also worked at the Family Court, but she wasn't
going to work on that particular day. As she opened the door, she was thrown back through two brick walls, two internal brick walls, and lost her limbs and her head and of course died instantly. Then there's a four kilogram bomb found in a car, wired to the ignition of a solicitor of the Family Court. If there's anything amusing in any of this, it's when the because it was in the days we didn't have bombings and we didn't have a bomb squad as such, we had scientific unit,
and they came. They thought it was a joke. They came and saw the capacity of it, and the only equipment that they had to make it safe was to place a fishing hook around the detonator and with the rod. Then they went to the back of the house or a regular suburban house surrounded by other houses. Of course, this was after everyone had been moved to a safe distance from the back of the house. They reel in
the fishing hook, which renders the bomb safe. We ended up buying the same car model and blowing it up, and it would have we could have. We showed it could have destroyed that whole house and surrounding once as well, a very large bomb. The reason it didn't detonate was the see that the solicitor of the family court had lived there but had moved out quite recently. The tenants who were there. Peter, he went to work on his car, which was parked on the driveway and he's literally he
sat in the driver's seat to turn the ignition. He stopped. He thought, no, if I turned on the ignition, the exhaust pipe, which is what he wanted to work on, would get hot je so in a moment he decided not to turn the car on. So he then, in preparing to work on it, he opened the bonnet. He discovered the four kilo bomb in that car. So how lucky is that? And then we have by now we're in nineteen eighty five, then we have a very large explosion of a bomb under the podium at the Jehovah's
Witness Kingdom Hall Temple in Western Sydney. At that time there was a congregation gathered of about one hundred and twenty people and the bomb was placed directly under where the preacher was speaking. He was when the bomb went off. He was thrown up through what was now vacant ceiling space roof space, and he landed in a tree and most of his clothes were removed in the blast. He survived amazingly with fractures. The randomness of bombs shows by
there was one victim who died, David. He was sitting in the second row from where the preacher was with his family, and he died instantly. He had, by chance turned to his wife. Of course, he had no idea what was about to happen, but she told the police at the time that the last words he said to her was I love you. Well, so yeah, really really, Again.
Just outlining those offenses, the magnitude of it is hard to comprehend, even like it as homicide detectives, and we've seen a lot of shit, but that is just an amitude and the random not randomness, because it was targeted the victims of catastrophic effect when you start placing bombs in locations like that.
That with the church when they were roughly ninety seven seriously injured people, seventy went to hospital, sixteen were children and five babies. At that time, they weren't absolutely clear whether they were targeted, I and linked or random. But we got to the bottom of that when the case came to me in twenty thirteen, and yeah, we got.
To take I want to break it down because I found that particular case fascinating. And I remember before you were at Unsolved Thomas Side. I did a stint there and I think you took my place when I took some time off and I was asked to have a look at that investigation, just to have a cursory look over it. And I remember I think we had a conversation. I said, Jesus, I hadn't appreciated I worked on it like you as a young uniform officer where we were at the camp out the front of the judges' homes
to protect the judges. Yeah, it was a fascinating fascinating case, a lot of stuff. There was a lot, you know, resources were put into it, and I've got to say I'm surprised in a way that didn't come to a conclusion. I know, like investigations evolve and it's easier sometimes to investigate all the matters. But yeah, it just died, didn't it. Most of our most of our homicide career, it was
never mentioned the family law court bombings, was it? There wasn't something that was actively being worked on.
No, I guess no case can be in its entirety, but at that time there's full effort. The Prime Minister, who was Bob Hawk at that time, he announced he got involved. He announced the largest what was called Task Force then the Joint Bomb Task Force, which was combining the new Southised Police, Federal Police and the Millet Tree. So we had no no real we needed explosive knowledge. So and of about one hundred and twenty personnel, so certainly the biggest to that time.
Okay, well let's fast forward. So you're the you're the detective chief inspector in charge of unsolved Thomasoe, and you've got the that case has been allocated to you.
Yes, it had been reviewed a few times. People had gone back into it, but we did a we dug deep and did a reinvestigation. So what happened within the first a few months is you would have known when you were there, but there's a certain group of investigators there at come and call it cold case. You want to go the unsolved homicide cold case. Everyone knows what
that is. Cold who just knew that it was You know that knew and were prepared to dig for exhibits long thought to have been destroyed, which would have been perfectly within policy at that time because you can't keep the billions of exhibits always collected, but were prepared to do the grunt work, which was literally dig and in a way defy exhibit officers that said, no, it's not on our list, it's not.
Here, and breaking that down. That's just to give people a sense of what we're talking about here. Quite often that's going to some dusty room and brushing the dust and cobwebs off and going through old boxes and looking for bits and pieces. Yes, that really is. It's a painstaking, dirty job.
Yes, because it's from an era where the term DNA, the idea of it, the concept of it, was alien. So we've got to remember it's at a time when no one knew that in the future it was possible. DNA wasn't readily available to law enforcement till the nineties in fact.
And so for an exhibit, those old exhibits, if you well, we've got a photograph of it, do we need to care like it because there's no forensic value retaining this in the exhibit room.
Yes, and blood would you get a blood group that was?
That? Was it?
So then get rid of the bloodied exhibit. So Matt, who was one of those senior constables you worked with, Yeah, say soon, Matt Heffnan.
We're not going to attack him, So I think, you know, I always.
Think it's up to the individual to want to be named. I'm sure he's in public anyway. But anyway, Matt Hello, So, and he was one of the ones that was just ready to do the work, the hands and work relentlessly. He did find within So we started in July twenty thirteen.
In October, he's been digging and digging and he gets to the areas of the Sydney Police Center and he finds, of course, the damp, smelly bags keeps going in some dark corner and he sees the ripped corner of a bag that had the word I don't quote me on it, but Jehovah or some such so related to bombing I've just mentioned. So then in there he found cardboard and carpet that was not from the bombing, that was from a break and enter that it occurred at that Jehovah's
Witness temple the week prior to it. And the scientific officers of the day who were the ones going to each scene too, mostly they just thought it's worth grabbing, didn't know what they could do with it. It's worth grabbing, and it could have been destroyed within policy, it wasn't. We tested that, and around those few months after we'd started, we did get a result, which was the blood on the carpet belonged to the father of a woman known
as Trudy. So we went to Trudy and her father was Leonard John Warwick.
Okay, remember that name.
So this is a good time to say, because a lot of people think and a lot of shows can suggest that finding DNA is the bill and end all we worked for it. It was at least another eighteen months after that. And remember that was from one offense, and not even the offense, but just the location.
I think break that down because I think the due credit for yourself and your team that worked on it. That is by no means a set of facts that you can present to the court. Because DNA was found from a break and enter in a place that was blown up a week later. It's yes, at points, perhaps you can place some weight on that, pointing you in the direction, but that's not the entry value on that side.
No, it's it's not. Nor was I going to be satisfied with the because I was convinced the offences were linked. I wasn't going to be satisfied with charging with one offense and saying well, at least we got exactly so, so what then then happened? It is just a very good, focused, small team that I was merciless with in that they're all very motivated and developed expertise in areas. So we had a bomber, So Mel was a bomber. She could
have built bombs for us. She had to learn it as a layperson because it was always well, is it
possible for that for that to happen? We you know, others are building rapport with witnesses who were much older, forgetful, not willing to be involved in something that had been you know, promised a solution earlier, and it had never come that all these nuanced are necessary approaches, including what we didn't find in the one hundred and fifty three archived boxes from the previous investigation was a complete set of
family law call transcripts. So where it all came together was you know how I'm pretty good on paper?
Yeah, Oh no, you're very good on paper.
And you know how irritatingly good I am with small details? Yes, So I determined to write up the evidence, every bit, and I formed a document. It ended up being one hundred and ten pages long.
And the listens he is sometimes a slight obsession helped an investigation, but yes.
So the document, which ended up being an aid memoir for the Department of Public Prosecutions, was fed by the experts that my team had developed.
And can we just break that down, because I think our listeners are interested in the dynamics of investigations. But going through and we talked in one of the earlier episodes about little things are important, but when you actually documented, I often when I was stuck on an investigation, I type it down. Okay, if I think this person has done this crime, I'm going to type up a set of facts and have a look at it, stare at
it and see, Okay, what's in there? But going through in that infinite detail that you went it helps understand what you've got because you can't. You can't retain all that information in your brain precisely.
Plus, it's no use even if you can retain it in your brain. It's not about you. It's about you convincing what you can present. Yes, well, convincing your hierarchy, which was necessary in this case. Beyond that the prosecutors that there's a worthy case for them to be involved in an invent So yes, writing up we shared that that approach absolutely essential.
Well, I think I learned a little bit from you on that in investigations, because you're always about put it down in writing. And this happened, that happened, blah blah blaheah, put it down in writing. I learned something, and I tried to pass out on the people too.
And it gives you clarity in your own mind. And is it is it convincing in writing to any any other relevant party to read essential. So that was my approach to it was a work in progress. It's not like we got to the inter and of that. I just whipped this up. It grew and developed and was a very unwilldy document to make chronological or because because it was fed by our discoveries.
And going back again. I just want to break it down. You said your team, how you drove them? You did drive them. I saw saw what was going on, and you need on investigation sometimes the breakthroughs. And take this as a compliment, but I firmly believe it. You need people just driving, pushing, pushing, pushing, because the ones, the difficult ones to crack are the ones that people go above and beyond. And I know you and your team went above and beyond.
It really was a huge effort, and I really appreciate my team bearing with it. Some a couple went by the wayside. It was too intense, but the ones that remained, and that wonderful humor you get with the intensity I put on them and all my teams. It's apparently called being pommeorized, So I think that was quite I think.
You pick up on what that might mean terrified. I recommend that, but no, you've got to drive it. And I'm big on this, and this is where the passion comes into it, Like if people fall by the way side, we'll get out of there. Like this is a homicide investigation, and I know it doesn't make me popular, but if people are not up to it, don't do it. You're not a conscript. Don't strutt around calling yourself a homicide
the ticket unless you're prepared to pay the price. Yes, yes, and I know you share that, and I know you paid the price. And your team that you got working harmoniously, the ones that stuck through with it.
Yes, And even just what I found useful there was there were one or two experienced doubters, so experience in that they could their opinion could be relied upon. But they doubted that Leonard Warwick had committed all the crime. So I found it very useful to task them with being the devil's advocate. Yes, and solely the devil's advocate.
They weren't involved in any of the other aspects. Devil's advocate on the other suspects which the origin investigation had dug up a lot somewhere like there was one standout for for the Watson matter, the one where Missus Watson she died, absolutely stand out. He'd been part of the construction crew for the for the apartment blog. He'd been in the military, some red flags, Yeah, and he'd come out and said how much he hates hates them all.
But so, but your real good use of Devil's adivocate because you if you don't do it yourself, the defense are going to the defense are going to bring up these things.
So it's a good way to use use stuff. And we're talking here at the management level of an investigation, which which we don't often talk. We more get into the nitty gritty of it. But from a management point of view, I called them the what ifs. I'd be saying, this happened, but what if it's that person? Yeah, it's a good way. Okay, we'll back it up, put it in. Yeah. Ok. They're the doubters and the what if types in investigations.
If it plays out the way you said or believe it's playing out, they go, well, I just thought they'd raise it, and if it doesn't, then they strut around going oh well, I said, yeah, So it's a good way to for anyone listening that might end up running a homicide investigation for the doubters or what ifs give them the task to approve it.
Yes, it's important and can be useful comment for people to make. Everyone should contribute. Every good leader encourages and even makes people contribute. But so many jobs get bogged down in that conversation. It doesn't go further than that type of conversation. Someone's got to come through with clarity. What are your the best prospects here? We're going for them even and it's a term you use, you even should get tunnel vision on good ones until that tunnel
vision is not justified. With limited resources, you must concentrate your efforts. That's a way of concentrating your efforts.
So with.
Your comment earlier about you know, isn't it surprising it wasn't solved earlier? I might share that too, though I know they worked very hard and in very different circumstances, just with information management and being able to recall.
Yeah, we're talking about card system as distinct from a computer and and I and everything else that goes on the plat.
But what I discovered was through close reading of the thousands of pages of family court transcripts lots of things, But this is just a demonstration, which is so Justice Opus, who was Leonard John Morrick's first victim. He had he Warwick was before the family Court because his wife Andrea wanted to one divorce and property settle. So Justice Opus was the first justice trying to sort through these applications.
The orders become very complex and it's very tedious to read because there's I think you've had court matters with family called and they're quite convoluted, wouldn't you agree? Am I triggering? Are there any triggers happening here?
So?
So Justice Opus would make multiple orders. So and just an example one was after after the parties have just putting in Lamor's terms, after the parties have done a b c dn E, then a period of seven days can pass until all the all the documents are exchanged for instance. That's the type of thing. So that can
happen over six, eight, ten separate hearing dates. So I got those transcripts and I remember sitting there counting after all the putting them in sequence, working out what this process of and then the seven day thing, which is counting the date from when the order was made or when the last seventh step was made, so counting the days specifically around Opus's orders, and the day that I came up with on my fingers was the day that
Opus was shot dead out his door. Now I'm really hopeless at maths, hopeless, but I managed to do that. I doubted it. It was so clear and such heavy evidence, heavy good evidence. I thought I've missed something, and I went back, went back, but no, I hadn't missed it.
Thoroughness of it that that's a huge coincidence, isn't it.
Then you're looking at it hadn't been discovered before.
Yeah. These are the type of things that sort of kicking and you think, okay, well maybe I am heading in the direction because you do doubt yourself when you're running the investigations like that, Like there's a lot of pressure to get it right.
Yes, and you should doubt yourself.
Yeah.
It's this tricky balance, isn't it, Confidence, clarity, doubt, And you don't have it in there.
I've to say sometimes I've had investigations where above have interfered and I've been frustrated because of the report and have to answer all this, But by the time it comes to court, I'm glad they interfered, because I've got everything prepares and that. But even and it's a robust Fieled working homicide investigations. Everyone's got an opinion. And I was not against other people having opinions because that helped me check myself if I was heading off in the
direction and someone has said something. But yeah, I find that fascinating the amount of detail. I know how thorough you are, but they're the type of things that can sometimes get investigations across the line.
So will we skip forward to the result.
Well, I remember reading the brief was something about a clock. Was quite interesting.
Yes, So we ended up so the whole so that all the elements. It was a oh goodness. So what's that term a circumstantial? That that term.
You have how long you've been there, that's where.
You have direct or circumstances circumstantial, But so many elements like so, when we looked at the photographs of search warrants conducted on Leonard Warrick, because he was interest, he was a personal interest in a pool of them. We looked at the photographs that had been taken during search warrants at his home, and then we conducted our own search warrant, and we found in both the same brand clock that had been used to time one or two of the device.
It was a breakdown of the components in the clock that that's from the bombing. That's what they see, is that's that's my understanding.
Yes, yes, to know it was a certain brand clock. And then yes, the same yes, the same was found in his possession.
And see this type of evidence, because when you go to court, people are going to attack your integrity, attack everything. But those type of evidence, that type of evidence really stands up. Well, you know, how have we created that there's a phato of the clock. This is a component that was found in the bomb that is in that clock. Yes, that's fascinating it.
Yeah, so all those, all those elements came together. None of them which is the nature of circumstantial briefs. None of them by themselves are the home run. But in combination and we uh, you know, the elements come together and they're often better briefs than direct briefs because it stands alone. So when we did so, I knew towards the end, when I just knew we had him, I also knew we didn't need to interview him we prepared an interview, but we didn't need him to say anything
truth or lies. We did not need anything from him because the circumstantial brief was so good.
I remember the interviewing because you did approach me at one stage and said, look, this is building up. I'd like you, would it be possible, would you be interested in interviewing him in resources to do what you do in an interview room. I was so excited. I spent the whole weekend. If you're eating up on the brief and thinking, I know how I'm going to approach this lunatic. But we had a discussion. You said you want to run,
and I agree with you. You wanted to run it past your team if they wanted to have a go at it. I think it was more appropriate they had to go at it. But I've got to say I was disappointed because I wanted to have a crack at him. Yes, I think it would have been a fascinating that I think.
Of a discussion, fascinating to watch, and you had always some fearless reputation as an interviewer. In fact, I've had it in mind if I get a chance to us or anything, it would have been what are your tips. Yeah, whether that's now later.
Of cause my passion. You know, that was my go to place and my fun place, and I think you brought me on one other investigation and I still remember what I did in that interview room, and I'm so proud. It was all above board. There was nothing untoward that just jammed up a solicitor and these client big time. And the amount of preparation you have to do before the interview. You have got to prepare yourself because knowledge is power in the interview room. So you need to
know so much detail about that person. So if they take you off on a tangent or whatever, you can bring them back. You've got to have a strategy. You've got to be flexible in your thinking with the strategy. Sometimes i'd prepare a couple of strategies. He's even going to talk, he's going to deny it all this and
create the atmosphere. It can be one of intimidation. I know we're not their threat, promise or in if someone's intimidated, because I'm professional and thorough and I walk in a suit, all my papers lined up and ready to go, and the interview room is my place. So if they feel intimidated by that. That's not you can't argue that they feel intimidated because I'm professional. Well, I'm not doing anything
wrong being professional. You can also play and again strategies for interview the bumbling detective you come in there, the disinterested detective and just yeah, yeah, whatever. You're listening to everything that's been said. I whether this is a strength for a weakness, I don't know. In the interview room, some people listen to the word that's spoken, the actual word that's been spoken. I'm looking at the reaction from the person when I'm asking the question, what's the reaction.
I'm getting more from what's not said than what is said. And yeah, it's worked for me in the interview rooms. What I would say about the interview room is how taxing it is. I would come out from an interview room and I would just be exhausted. I would be spent, leave nothing else. So I give everything I've got, so just the intensity, and I would honestly feel sick before I went into an interview room because of the pressure that you're putting on yourself.
A similar feeling here, Am I doing that to you?
I can't tell you how nervous. I was when I you need a break, the break. But yeah, those little tips. But the other, probably the biggest tip, is you've got to be yourself in the interview room. I've seen people I've tried the copy people their style and it doesn't work because it's not me. I've seen people tried the copy my style. It doesn't work. You've got to be genuine self in the interview room.
That really, that's such an interesting last point. I don't think I've heard you say that, but it makes so much sense. I was not Interviewing was never my strength. I had other strengths, and I always figured it was because some of the crimes are so hideous. I could not be in the room with any respect for the person as a human being. And I'm sure I radiated that, and that was being myself, whereas you would feel the repulsion and the anger on behalf of the community and
the victims and things the same. But you, if you're able to cover it up, I much more.
Suss well, you break something down, that's very interesting there, I would cover it up. I've sat opposite some despicable human beings and I didn't give an ounce of judgment. There and I'm just saying, yeah, we're just having a chat, and they can be talking, you know, we're talking murderous pedophiles saying the most horrific things, but they wouldn't get a reaction out of me. Internally, I'd be feeling it, but on the face they wouldn't see it. So a
bit of poker. But yeah, anyway, Sorry I digressed, but that was an exciting time. I was so excited that weekend thinking because I remember it from my early days in ployees and it's such a significant job. I would have sat loved to sit down opposite him in an interview room.
But because he had actually never to an interview. In what I mean by that is he had been interviewed, as in arrested, taken for interview, he'd been put before the coroner at a hearing while it was still unsolved. He only ever, he often wouldn't confirm even his name. If he spoke, it was to confirm his name. Yeah, so yes, the challenge between you and him.
You would have had been, well, if we're talking the way to interview, you've got to think outside the square a little bit, like if you go in there. I was thinking I'm going to rattle him by being as strange as he is. That would have been that would have been my gay game. Yeah, yeah, that was I was thinking. But anyway, we digress. It must have been so eighteen months you worked on it. How did it feel when you knew when when you got to that point, when all the all the ducks had lined up and
you gan to arresting. How did you feel?
And your team felt really really excited in a calm way because it was just a done deal. So by that, I mean I had complete faith in the material we had put together. Resting him was a bit of a challenge. He certainly was older, but.
He grabbed him.
They yes, so that that decision you have to make, as in our positions, where.
To arrest dangerous exactly.
Booby traps, guns, anything. So the gym. I chose the gym because he had developed a habit of going at a certain time, so we had reliable geography that we could set up securely. He had an affection for a particular treadmill, so we knew precisely which one in the group, and we knew to keep the other treadmills occupied by people who could handle handle things. If it got out of control. And yeah, so that was a successful day. There were over eighty police involved. That was after the
aid memoirs I've described. It was put in front of a legal panel, which is unusual, but because of the size of the job, I guess the status of the victims, but also the the nature of it being unsolved for so long. For the new Southwest Police Force. My hierarchy, which was also your hierarchy, didn't want to risk failure. So I was more than happy to do that. I understood why I had been asked to do that, and it had the green light. So yeah, it was a good day.
Yeah, great day.
When Matt Heffernan and Matt Russell, so Matt Russell was my detective sergeant on the job, a great rapport builder with witnesses and things, so they were they were doing the rest, of course, and when they've put their their common arm on Warwick and taken his sports bag, his first words and only words, were there are no explosives in it, which.
Of course I would have had so much fun with him.
He's not a man you trust his words. So we checked it and the Bob squad's standing by and I don't think so.
I want to ask this because when you work on the investigation of that intensity and that, did you feel and I'm like, from a personal point of view, did you feel excitement after the arrest, did you feel pressure off or what? Did you feel numb? Because sometimes you have different reactions when you get a result with investigations.
Yes, no, no, it was I do know what you mean with this one. It was very satisfying. We had and I think I said at the time, we had worked in the shadows for a very long time. We weren't going out saying, look what we're doing. And the primary reason, two reasons is we didn't want him to get active again.
But equally your place get blown up. That's important. That was sensible.
But the victims and their families had been through so much, the highs and loads of big, big investigation, lots of heavy investigators, it's going to be successful, and were let down terribly. It was forty years nearly to the day before it was entirely resolved. So we were working in the shadows. Yes, for safety too. We didn't tell them we were working on it again because I wasn't going to promise something and then not deliver. So it was great.
What was great was at that time the day of the rest, which of course started been letting them know gently. The big satisfaction was the comfort we were able to give them, Yes, that they hadn't had for such a long long time. That was really significant. Heavy weight was off.
Yeah okay, and he was convicted. Ah.
Yes, So he toyed with the family court earlier through his crimes over years. His own family court matter might have been slightly shorter than yours. He's went for seven years. He's went for seven years. He was very good at it. So when he got arrested, he you know, a number of things happened, of course, but part of it was he manipulated the court system again, this time the criminal court,
the Supreme Court. It took five years after arrest and a twenty two month trial for him to be found guilty. It was judged only for him to be found guilty, and he was sentenced for three murders. He got life, So three life sentences plus if we add up the rest two hundred and fifty or so years of for the connected incidental crimes. Yeah. So well, it was a good That was another good day.
It was a good day. But I want I was proud of being part of the New South Wales Police when that was that case was solved them. Very proud of you and your team on what you did because I saw how hard you worked on it. But and
I what I like about it too. It sends out a message to all these people that think they've got a way with crimes that hey, there might be people just like you and your team working on them and they never know when they're going to get the knock on the door or get their their training in the morning. Did you let him finish his training session or just
grab him off off the running machine? But no, that was that was I think all the good elements of what cold case and unsolved homicide and reinvestigation should be about came into play. So full credit and it was significant. Wasn't like I can't remember a crime of that magnitude and attacking the justice system?
Yes, well, it was described, including by the Prime Minister but other other people as the most significant case of domestic terrorism attacking our democracy and system of justice. That's they're the terms being used over that forty years.
And what like with each investigation it takes a little piece of out of you or whatever? What price did you pay in that investigation?
Could I before that? And I want to are you curious what his motivation was?
Oh? Yeah, take over the podcast is podcast. But that's a good question.
It's I'm going to say topical now, but it always has been and should be. It was domestic violence related. It was as straightforward as he was a violent boyfriend to Andrea, a violent husband to Andrea. He also had psychopathic tendencies, but so many do.
He was a fireman, wasn't he?
And that was the other part. He was a full time fireman, so had the appearance of normality, but a brute And it's I don't even know how to express it, but clearly it's an example of how if domestic violence isn't properly attended to or stopped eliminated would be good, then these things, these further crimes, things can grow out of it and it's all bad. And yes, so that you know, its very essence is domestic.
Violence, and the essence of domestic violence. Correct me if I'm wrong, But from my understanding of it, the bombing that the Jehovah's Witness Church was because that's where his ex wife attended that church. Yes, well he is his because they were they were offering her shelter.
Yes, so his wife's sister asked members of that was her congregation to help move Andrea away to safety. And and they did that generosity of spirit, which normal good people do. They moved covertly, so secretly, and and she was she was just sick of the violence. And yes, he got to learn, not specifically that they had helped, but he's he learned a lot enough just just to target them in case they had helped. So it really is a mindset is incomprehensible.
It is incomprehensible that put a bomb in the church with one hundred people in there. That the and I remember when your team were looking at the investigation before you took it on, they were getting statements from eighteen month old child at the time had cut from the explosion. It could have know how many people he could have killed with that, but he just didn't.
Yes, he didn't care. And I fully expect that he thought there would be more fatalities. It really is just how the bomb is packed. And he whilst we didn't know it was him at that time, we were we were learning that the bombs were more amateurish than professional.
Right, Okay, So the damage wasn't yes a question than I think people would be wanting to ask this, So I've got my thoughts on it. But why those major offenses could years? Again? What did he get up to post those offenses? What was he what was his life did he have? Was there any other episodes of violence or things that he.
So when we arrested him, he was in the company of his new family, wife, children, So he the passage of time and it being unsolved for so long had allowed him to live a full life, reap the benefits of a government pension, and pretend he was a normal, good person.
Yeah, and it does tie into what's going on now, But that's the extremes that people go to when the emotion kicks him. So what was the price you paid personally for that?
It was a very heavy period because it was also the period that I'd been given the Scott Johnson matter, Right, Okay, So there was a lot of sleeping in the car in the basement and not going home and keeping clear focus on both high profile jobs.
Yeah, you basically had to forego your private life and just concentrate on work for those times. Yes, yes, Okay, Now that's fairly heavy topic, so let's delve into another fun fact. I think it's fun. It's funny in some regards, it was a bit confronting in others. Just set the scene. We've been living together for a long time, we've broken up, we'd both I think we'd both remarried at this particular
point in time, or you had remarried. I was getting remarried and I was approached by some writers to do an Underbelly TV series, Underbelly Badness. They approached me and senior Police actually pointed them to me, which is quite i wright think because it worked against my career for the rest of my time. But Senior Police pointed them there and they wanted to do a story about they'd done the Melbourne one, they'd done The King's Cross, and they said, we want to do a story about policing,
but following the police. The police will be the main characters, and we know the job that you're running, and we'd be really interested in covering you in the series. And they asked me about my personal life and I said I was divorced, and they said that's good. And I said, I had a real relationship with someone I work with and I can see I'm writing notes. That's great, blah blah blah. And so the series was who was it young?
It was you, that poor woman.
I think, as history dictates, it was you young. So we'd had that, and the relationship was out in public and all that. We've been there, done that, and then I come to you and I think you've just been recently remarried or about to get married. I said, look, Underbelly are going to do a story about my career, and you have gone that's good like that, And I said, but they want to talk about my private life. Are you happy for you to be included in my private life?
I can't remember the response I got, but it was not this similar to the stare that you're giving me now, and it was basically whatever you said. It was more eloquent than this, but I interpreted as what the fuck I think you said? Look, I'm not giving permission, but I will sit down and speak with the writers and just see what they're going to cover. It was an interesting experience for both of us, wasn't it. Oh?
Yes, it was. So My irritation was that you know how even today, how Australian society likes their heroes to be male and they have to have their male heroes have a love interest. So I was reduced to a love interest. That was quite irritating.
But it was very brave of you because you did say yes.
I did say yes, and I even gave permission for my name to be used. And I was asked at work why on earth, you know, why would you do that? And Chase, I don't have any shame over these things. And it was fun, but goodness, certainly upsets and male egos in your peer group, did it not?
Oh yes? Oh yes? I think after that, yeah, I had had a target on my back, not the not the and I put it this way, and if you're listening, they don't care. The genuine detectives that all did hard work would come up and say that's great. It was the ones that didn't do any work but had the shits that they weren't featured in the TV series. But from our point of view, I thought it was very gracious of you to say yes, you'll do it. And
it was quite funny. I remember the first episode like people were saying, we'll come around and watch it with you or whatever, and I said, no, I'll watch it on my own. And then watching our private life play out on TV. I think I was in the fetal position, sucking my thumb. You make it stop it.
Yeah, it was yeah, very sort of unbalancing or is that a term or something quite confronting.
And then watching our relationship break down, not only our relationship start on the show, and then the relationship breakdown.
Yeah, there was even more hilarious.
Well, I was sad bad. I don't know about you. I'm not saying I was crying, but I was upset.
I was crying, okay, But at the end of the day sort of harmless fun.
Really, it was harmless fun. And when you look at it, the actress that played you absolutely nailed you and got your voice down. Pat, I don't know how that came about.
But and my walk, I don't know what you had said about my walk, but she perfected it.
Yes, she did portray you very well. And I do remember after the first episode was played, and this is when you wonder what goes on in a homicide inspectors meeting, high level meeting. All the inspectors from homicide gather with the commander of homicide. It was Monday morning or the Tuesday morning after the first episode had played out, and we sit round the table and there's all the inspectors
there and the commanders talking about the cases. And then I think it was someone piped up stuff that we're not talking about that. What about these two yes?
Yeah, goodness, so yeah, And.
I know these problems with recruiting police and that at the moment, and we should touch on that, touch on that briefly. But look, what can happen when you join the police relationship play out on a high rating national TV show and sit there and be embarrassed.
And you get to see the world as well.
What about that trip to Paris? You can't you can't make this stuff up. And this is the life of being in a relationship to homicide detectives. I remember you always Paris was your thing. You loved love going to Paris, and you're always talking about and I think you had a trip planned to Paris. One of the benefits that we got when we were in the police working together is that occasionally we had to escort prisoners to overseas destinations. I think we did Fiji, Shanghai, Hong Kong, and then
a trip to Paris came up. I'll tell you my side of the story. I've been on call, been called out to a bad murder, a murder of Jaden Marsh, a young young child, and basically been up for forty eight hours. Was at headquarters swearing out a listening device mid morning Friday. I had the kids for that weekend, hadn't slept for forty eight hours. And you phone me, it's so normal, normal week to get a sense of
the chaos. And you phone me, and I'm with Jason, Jason Overs who's been on the podcast, and good mate, my partner in work for years.
You Fhaine, non intimate partner.
We just could never get that working. He's you'll fhone me and I am just stressed to the eyeballs and I'm signing out for David's and I know it's just going to be a chaos over the weekend. And you go, Jubilan, We've got an offer. Do you want to go to Paris for the weekend, And of course I want to go to Paris for the weekend, but I'm a little bit busy at the moment, having slept, and I think I said no to you, and I hung up, and Jason goes, who was that, and I said it was Pam.
We've got one of those extraditions to Paris for the weekend, but there is no way I can go. We're signing out, listening to vice warrants. We've got to install them. I've got to win interview the suspect in a couple of days and he's gone, you're mad, why don't you When he took me into it, I've phoned you back and
said stop, I'll go from my point of view. I then had to finish signing out the warrants, plan everything, Drive back to the central coast, pick up my change of clothes, pick up my passport, take I think it was Jake. It was Jake and Jemmet's a swimming swimming practice because I have him for the weekend. Phone my father and say can you meet me on the highway. I'm coming down. Can you look after Jake and Jemmy for the weekend? Co ordinate things. I was on the
phone the whole time, totally strung out. We get to the airport at about nine o'clock and the prisoner is handed over to us. This mad Frenchman. And remember he was carrying a digitidop that what he had done. He'd come into the airport and flew in sold the AFP officer or one of the work. So they didn't let him in and he had to be escorted back to back to parents. So we get on the plane. I am dead tired. We got the three seats down the back of the plane, put the prisoner near the near
the window, and he misbehaved the whole time. I remember there was a stopover at Hong Kong. You had to get off the plane. I wasn't allowed to get off the plane. I had to stay with him. You had to take your passports and Heathrow. Remember at this time, I don't think I'd slept for seventy two hours wrestling with him, and he would he would be just elbowing me and just carrying on a true We get the Heathrow airport and the only way we didn't really have any power of those extraditions, did we.
It was just sort of it was bluff. Yes, it was so we the people who asked us to do it knew that.
Yeah. So he gets off the Heathrow and we've got a three hour stopover and I'm pointing to it because he didn't speak English. I'm pointing to the police walking around with guns and pointing at the guns and pointing at him and with his passport, pretending to rip it up and prow it in the bin to try and control it. And he responded saying, he'll settle down by if I'd take him in. Remember they had those smoking rooms, a little fishing Yes, yes, I sit there. And then
we got to know when we got the Paris. Remember he turned it on at Charles de Gaure Airport and started fighting with us and the friends.
I got on with him. Fine, I don't know what your issue.
You were asleep in the seat in front. I remember that trip. I was stuck with him the whole time, and can you get the well, here we are. I am totally strung. Anyway, it was a fun trip. And then you got cranky at me because we had to go back because I had to interview the suspect for the murder.
And only you could do the interview. There wasn't another person on the planet who could possibly have done it.
I'm very proud of that interview, and we got a conviction and it was a very important interview. But you said you were just so cranky at me because we had to go home a day early from Paris.
You got your conviction and all I got of my holiday might have seemed like worked to you, but that was my Paris holiday. Is a photograph of you asleep on a park bench, Well, but it's a Parisian park bench, that's the important thing, and I still have that photo.
It was a fun trip, but I remember we got back and we were just so tired and we thought, no, no, we can roll in the work, but they were in. We did. We went, and I think the first trip we actually had without the prisoner was to Vietnam, and we're no one to talk to because we didn't have a prisoner between us. But join the police and see the world. It is another another layer of it. But it was a fun, fun time.
It was yeah, yeah, yeah, And we had to do things like that. There wasn't you know. We were not as ranked as we became, and you had a family responsibility, so we took advantage of anything free that came along.
Yeah, so just take this prison. I think the bloke we took back was that Hong Kong. He was described as Hannibal Lecter. He was one of the nicest blokes I had when he handed over. When he was handed over to us, people going to be careful, be careful, but we got on famously. But yeah, there were fun times. Anyway, we talk some heavy stuff, but there's also some fun times to policing and the chaos and it's not your average, average life, but there's some exciting things that play out.
Isn't it.
Definitely when we get back for part four, we're going to continue continue the chat with Pam, but we're going to talk about them something. This is where we better enjoy ourselves now because the Scott Johnson matter that you were heavily involved in, and I think it's fair to say that particular investigation was a tipping point of your career in the New South Wales Police. Yes, so try and keep a smile on your face when we get back Apart four, or remind you of some fun memories.
But when we come back, we're going to talk about Scott Johnson matter and it's played out very publicly and we'll get insight from Pam's perspective on that job.
See you then, mm hmm.