The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome back to part two of my chat with forensic psychologists and former UK cop Ern Sherrington. In part one, Earn explained the indicators that can suggest alone actor is planning an active mass violence. In part two, we talk about how you can intervene before an attack. This is
an important discussion. Er Sherrington, welcome back Part two of I Catch Killers.
Thank you.
We left part one talking about loan actors and mass killings. And the type of things, the type of call it indicators, red flags, warning signs that potentially we can look out for to try and prevent these attacks, because this form of policing's different from the majority of policing in it's very proactive. If someone's got an ideology, when does that ideology, when do they start to act on it? When's that tipping point? We finished off in part two talking about
some of those indicators. Is there any other things that you think we should discuss before we talk about how what we should do to try and prevent these.
Yeah, so, just to continue on the we call them indicators of warning signs.
Yeah. Absolutely.
So we talked about grievance, which is almost like a thing that you would expect in most cases. There's some cases where mental health is the issue or dominates the issue, but even some of those there's still elements of grievance, but some not. So it's just a kind of caveat that slightly. But we talked about tipping points, flash points.
Those are things to be concerned about. And what I'd say about that is if you already know someone has a major grievance and talking about kind of taking action and then there's a major event in their life or around the world, then that's when you should be concerned. Whether you know them as a friend, family, or whether you're part of an agency. It's the same difference, because
once you get those things, it tends to accelerate. In the cases that we know about, we talked a little bit about preparation, So this is the idea that someone has to plan this, and they might do it over a week or longer more meticulously, but often it's only a few days and you might get strange behaviors and reconnaissance. But one of the things flag is that this is real world and online, so often you also get preparation
online or comments online. So it might be someone might be in a forum and someone's talking about doing something, and what I'm interested in I suppose is that if you saw that as a member of the public, you might think, oh, that's weird and not do anything about it or was. What I'm trying to say is that for those cases where that's happened, it's an opportunity missed really right, you know, for someone to say there's this
person online and they're talking about doing something. Obviously, sometimes people have Levardo don't they They.
Just say stuff, Well, I was going to add there, like what yeah say, you'll probably say that that person deserves such and such or flippant comments. How do you distinguish between or differentiate between a comment that where people are saying is just passing offline to something that might be a little bit more sinister.
I think if they say explicitly that they're going to carry out violence, yeah, or an attack, and it does, it does happen more than you would think, yeah, because it's better safe than sorry. In those situations. Often they just say. People just say things, particularly online where it's this idea.
Of a keyboard warrior.
People just say things that they don't mean. But it happens enough that I would say, if you saw that, you should be concerned. And obviously that person online might not be who they say they are. They might have a tag or a name that isn't them, But even so I think it's concerning, and we'll talk a little bit about why.
So.
The other the other side of this is as you get quite close to carry out an attack a person like this, they might start mentally preparing. And this kind of comes in different ways. But unlike in a good example is a serial killer, where perhaps the whole purpose of what they're doing is to stay secret and get away with it and carry on doing it. This is, I said, at the start, is like a blazer glory. It's their final moments. But they know that they're going
to either die or go to prison. You know, they don't expect to survive one way or the other or continue their life as it is. If they're successful in what they're planning. And what's apparent is that that starts to dawn on them, the magnitude of it. It starts to affect them, and sometimes you'll see them behaving erratically. So they might at those stages late stages, start to kind of reach out to friends, family, or agencies. They might start to behave very strange cases. I've seen of
people who are pacing up and down. They're very stressed and no one understands why. Or they might become very withdrawn and secretive and defensive and all these sorts of things.
Obviously, these behaviors.
In isolation aren't necessarily that meaningful, but if you put it all together, it's when you start to see it. And then the last part of that is it particularly people so if we talk about Islamist cases where there's this idea of martyrdom, so it's this idea of jahad or martyrdom where you the belief that they have is that they're going to heaven. If they carry out this action or attack, then they're kind of facing a transition into a different space. Right, But a lot of people
were just scared of dying anyway. I mean, even if they're going to do this, they're still scared. But they've also got to say goodbye. They've got to kind of leave people they care about, all their things. So you might see this sorts of behaviors where people are acting like they're leaving, acting like they're moving to another country. Yeah, this is sort of indicators or warning signs. And then the last thing that you notice around the late stages
is this idea of leakage behavior. So this is an academic term that's been used for many years, and it can be direct or indirect. So someone might actually tell someone that they're going to do it. Very often it's not like I'm going to do it next week, on this day at this place. Because they want to do it,
they don't want anyone to stop them. But they might say, I'm going to do something about it, watch the news, something subtle, but you know, and sometimes you get indirect behavior, so you get kind of almost like a run through of the attack or references to other attacks. Look what they did there that you know, I'd like to do that, that kind of you.
Know, fixation and keep bringing up one previous attackles something like that.
Yeah, So an attachment to that or a kind of interest. And then this last part, which is around this idea of being remembered. So if you think about, you know, the profile of a serial killer that they want to get away with it as long as possible. Sometimes when they're caught, they go to prison, but some of them do you know that's been seen before, They do kind
of enjoy the notoriety. Well, in this case, they know they're not really going to get away with it in the sense that you know, in some senses, and they may lose their lives and they don't they don't want to be forgotten as if no one will ever know why they did it, but also who they are, and that's an important factor because that means that they need to tell someone. And sometimes you see it, you know, people would be aware of this, but sometimes you see
it written down. They do some video online or they write down something or that, but often it's telling people close to them or people online why, and you don't often well, you sometimes see it after the event, but sometimes there's an opportunity for people to kind.
Of put the flag up.
And those sorts of behaviors are normally very close to the end, if you like, if they're going to go ahead, So it's really important to sort of think about why they might be saying those things. It might seem strange in the moment, but if you consider everything I've said, and you have all those ingredients in one place, then that's when people should come forward and say, this is what's happening.
Okay, what you've described there, it's a broad rain of behaviors, but the in essence what you're saying is a change of change of behavior. And the people that would notice that are the people that are close to them to start with. So there's an onus on people close that's change of behavior. I've seen that investigating suicides where people
have taken their own life. Quite often during the investigation there's that change of behavior where they're making peace with people that they've had falling out before, or there's a calmness that comes over them. So I suppose what you're saying here, if we're going to combat try to prevent these type of crimes, everyone's got a role to play. People that seeing someone that they might be close with that's changing their behaviors. And I take on board what
you're saying also about threats of violence. If people are saying because the world has changed, you might have got a way of that thirty years ago, I'm going to kill this bloke. I'm going to do I'm going to do that. But we're all in a society that we're a little bit more cautious about that. So that is sort of stepping outside the norm. Isn't that if you're talking about violence, you're going to inflicked on someone.
There's the truth to it that people do, do you know, working in the police, people make threats, say things that they never are going to do or never do anything about it.
They do it. They do that. That is a thing.
But these are so huge that the devastation the impact they have on people. In the context I've given, I think if someone says that they're intending to do an attack like this. Personally, I think every single one of those comments should be reported because it might not be every time they really meant it, but the end of the day, that's the head and often the ones that are successful. It's a strange word to use, but they they often do that, and it's and you can see it.
You can see it in the cases afterwards, you know, but it's too late then, right, it's happened and lots of people have been killed. So if someone is saying that they tend to do something of this nature, personally, I think that's the biggest warning sign for me. It might not be true every time, but it only needs to be true once, right.
Yeah, exactly.
You've worked coronial investigations and also the counter terrorism. Have you seen situations play out where when you're looking back that the people close to the person that's carried out the crime have come forward and said, look, these were the type of things. Is there a reluctance for people to come forward with the information that they know prior to the event.
Yeah, I mean it does happen, yes, To be fair, sometimes it's subtle and they wouldn't nessarily understand what I'm talking about. Yeah, they wouldn't piece that together. Perhaps someone who listened to this might because they've they're connecting it.
But often families they talk about strange behavior or friends or which is why I emphasized in this idea that if it's blatant, if they're just saying they're going to do something, then that is very worrying because they're outwardly saying their intentions, and that happens and so, but the subtle behaviors is very difficult, you know, to spot, and
it's a classic thing of hindsight. You know, you can almost make it fit right with a comment, can seem like it means something and all this, and until you look at it afterwards they've actually done it, the significance isn't there. But there's definitely a concern people have about reporting, and I think it's obviously sometimes it's loyalty and not
wanting to get their friends or family into trouble. It's a concern about what the government or police will do, or the agencies or charities that work with people like this, they what might happen to them. The reason I feel so strongly about it is because I've been on both sides, Like in a sense, so I've supported people and tried to help them out of this process, but also I've seen the devastation and has a big effect on someone,
you know, including police detectives. You know, it's I look at it and my desire to kind of look at the prevention of it. It comes from having seen the awful devastation that these things create. Huge mass cases like this devastate numbers and numbers of families. But they put fear into the community. But they also ruin the suspect's life and their famili's life too, you know, although there's no winners in this, you know, it's not.
Yeah, and that's possibly a way that the families need to look at it, Like the concern about coming forward, But is that concern unfounded? Like if someone reported, especially and I see you know, we're talking teenagers and young people, that parents would be beside themselves watching the way that their son or daughter is behaving and the things that are happening. And I can't understand the reluctance to he's been talking about blowing up such and such or doing
that going to the police. How would the police, in your opinion, how would the police handle that if the information was provided provided to them.
It really depends what stage it's at, you like, so if it's if it's kind of gone very far, they're likely to be arrested, you know, because they do start committing offenses if they've planned something, and you know, they've seriously planned it earlier on in that there's an opportunity to steer them out of it, and that there are sort of various programs around the world that support people
to do that. And one of the things that I was involved in was this idea of protective factors, so putting in things that improve their lives, you know, not trying to debate their ideology or grievance, you know, which is so deep seated at that point it often makes it very difficult to get through to them. But often behind all of this is a sense of kind of hopelessness about their own lives. That's why they've connected to these subjects or these groups or and so protective factors
are kind of trying to address some of that. And it's not too kind of make out like they're necessarily victims or you know, but it's in reality this sort of thing. It's a social issue, you know, it comes from from social issues.
That's what I believe.
And one of the most powerful ways to kind of actually stop someone and steer them away before they ruin their life and other people's lives is to kind of get involved with them and treat them with some support and protective factors to try and improve situations. It might be their living situation, it might be their family situation, you know, abuse things like that, but it might it might be simply a sense of helplessness. And when I talk about this stuff, the lines aren't clear. Like I'm
emphasizing children because children can get involved, you know. Like the easiest way I can explain it is people would have seen that show Adolescence, you know, on TV, which is very powerful. But it's this idea of parents having a child capable of something that you would never imagine. So when that happens, people start to sense that it's like something to do with them.
It's their fault, you see.
And these are very complicated things, and I think that they often.
Mean that people won't.
Step forward because particularly parents and families, because they're so concerned they can't quite believe it themselves. You know that this person is capable of it, but obviously if someone's got much further down the line. Even if they're arrested, the whole thing is averted, which is huge. And so if they went all the way, it's worse. You know, this is a difficult subject, but it's the truth. You know, it's much worse to not intervene if you have a chance to.
So I take on board what you're saying, and I understand that something that should be should be encourage the intervention. We talk about, yeah, of young males because quite often this is the way it plays out, breaking it down into the terrorist organizations where they see young males potentially as vulnerable. They're looking for whatever connection their life is lacking. They're looking for their tribe. Are these are the type
of people that get exploited? And if I just put it in the category of people that hold the extreme ideologies, are these are the type of people that they exploit to carry the carry out their work.
Yeah, Look, there is a range. And the modern evolution of this is generally young people are being brought into this subject online and they're doing it by themselves. If you go back some years, it's not that it doesn't happen anymore, but you do get these situations where adults, if you like, would groom or radicalize a young person and get them to do their bidding or do their
work for them. Over the years, I think what's happened is slight shift where people can be encouraged or even self radicalize themselves, even cases now where AI gets involved or in the middle of this, you know, so cases where certain AI models will interact with an attacker.
And can support their ideology.
Yeah, like how to plan it as well, you know.
So it's a slightly frightening sort of evolution. But yes, there's cases too still and probably historically more so, but where individuals are groomed, they're they're vulnerable and they're easily radicalized. But what I would say, even though that person may have been drawn into it, behind it is often still these issues around grievances and tipping points, you still have these problems in their lives. A lot, a lot of these cases aren't purely about the belief in the cause.
You know, underneath it is a personal crisis or a personal kind of view of themselves. And so that's why with with younger people, they're almost easy targets because they'll pick someone who's vulnerable who's got a bad life and give them meaning and purpose and belonging and all this sort of things. So a very dark kind of approach really, but.
They're very easy to exploit a young person.
Yeah, they'll select someone that's easy to exploit.
I picked up on the fact that you said it's not the way to come at them head first and say no, your views are wrong, your ideology is wrong, and all that that can make them more withdrawn or add to their beliefs. What is the way to approach it? If you've got someone that doesn't have to be a young member of your family, it could be anyone. What if someone's expressing these extreme views, how what's the best way to deal with it on a personal level.
Yeah, so, I mean it's worth emphasizing the fact that because it's because it's a grievance, it's so extreme. If you think someone's willing to go all the way to do an attack, it has to be at the high end of extreme, you know. And so often these people will hold these views, they've built them up, either you know, online or through other people, or by themselves or through other people. Trying to debate with them would be quite
difficult and it's this idea, isn't it. Of like, if you've got a view, if someone argues against it, you become more entrenched in your view. Yeah, modern society now is very polarized, isn't it. It's kind of all or nothing post COVID, this idea that opinions are facts, and so it's very difficult actually to do that.
I like that post COVID opinions of facts, But you're right.
But what I'm what I'm getting at, I suppose is that by trying to debate with them, you're almost entrenching them further. They're finding more ways to defend their view. So it can it can work. I've seen it work. I've seen that sort of approach work. It very much depends on the type of person that's working with them. But often it's not a good way to start because
they're coming from a place. You know, up here there are different places, so you need to find common ground, and often families, friends might be too close to the problem. You know, it's not they're not necessarily the right person. Where it works. The best I've seen it quite a lot is people that used to be extremists as kids, then they grow up perhaps and then they start to
do work with younger people. They give up their views and they give up all this life, this difficult life of extremist views, and then they start to coach other young kids to give back and to try.
And pull them out of it.
And it kind of works with a sort of I think they're able to reach them on a respect level, as in they've they've been down the path and this is the way out of that path.
Does that make sense?
It does, And there's a lot of merit for people. And I see this with offenders that go back into juvenile detention centers and say this is a path. They've got their attention because they can relate to them. We were where you were at one stage and this is what we're saying about the life. So I can see the benefits are there. What role does the media play in trying to reduce it?
Now?
When you were saying in the preparation stage where people might go down that path, they're looking for notoriety, they're looking at high impact on what they're what they're about to do. I'm a big believer in I always have concerns where people become there's a tragedy and the offender's name is linked to that tragedy and not the victims. I know the media are a little bit more cautious on it. People are a little bit more cautious of not even giving identity of these people. And the thirst
for information from the public will be there. Someone will always find out the name of the person responsible. But is there a role in the media, what we can control the media and there because social media is a life until itself, of making sure they don't get put up there on a pedestal or get to know the variety that they're looking for. Do you think that could make a difference.
Yeah, I guess.
I guess what's worth saying from my perspective is that it is a big part of it, particularly the modern cases. This evolution where it seems to be a big factor, particularly for people who are younger, is the notoriety to
be remembered. Some of this nihilistic sort of violence I mentioned individuals sort of interested in that are interested in being kind of famous within their own world online and so when they when they decide to do something, they pick locations that are going to be going to make the front page, aren't they Or they're going to be iconic and remembered and strike fear and all this sort
of thing. That's what they're thinking about generally, that they're doing that, but also they want to come out at the other end of it and kind of almost be better than the last one, which is a very difficult thing. But that is a I'm not saying that's their entire motivation, but that is a factor. As I said before, that kind of comes from as almost like a part of
how they feel about themselves, low self worth. They want to kind of be more than that, you know, And that is a bit of a difficult one because obviously the media have to report these things, you know, it's really important. But there's lots of families of victims of these attacks that don't want to ever hear the suspect's name again. And I don't blame them. I understand that completely,
and I'd feel the same if it was my loved one. Yeah, So I think for the media, it's probably just being tuned into the fact that actually how they adjust their reporting, I don't I don't entirely know, but what I would say is that some of these guys, this is exactly what they want. Is huge media coverage for as long as possible. And that's the kind of if you think about it from that side, it is quite a dark
dark things. It's a very fine balance, isn't it, between giving them kind of exposure versus reporting what the public should know. You know, I think if you go over years hearing the name again, I try my hardest not to mention people's names if I can. Sometimes it's impossible
not to. But go back to serial killers that are in prison for a long time, as there used to be on the front of the tabloids in the UK a lot even years years afterwards, and still yeah, and you think about the family that they're just they never forget obviously, but they maybe their life is okay and they're living it, and then they see the picture of their loved ones killer on the front of the paper in the street.
You know.
That's what That's what I would say is important to remember every time, every time it's repeated, it kind of can really hurt.
I asked you the other day, and I thought it was interesting just bringing clarity to it, because here we've had people with sovereign citizen ideology that have committed acts of violence, and it's normally what has been at law enforcement. Are they in the same category as loan actors or there's something that you said that I'd like to just explore, because I thought it was an interesting aspect that you divided that up from a loan actor sovereign citizens they
want to be left alone. That's when people try to come to them.
Yeah, I think these things evolve, and it is a lot to do with circumstance. I remember when I was a detective, younger detective, and I was involved in a like a manhunt for what would be described as sovereign citizens. So long story short, he was wanted for a minor offense. They tried to arrest him and he pointed a gun at one of the officers then disappeared. So it was kind of days of looking for him, and we managed
to find him. And I was down at this site middle of nowhere, and they had the firearms team on foot and we were the arrest him. Were just detectives kind of minding our own business. Really, we ended up in the middle of it between the two, which was a bit of a probably one of the scariest moments. I've not the right place to go, no, and I'll never forget that, like that sense of yeah, but so
that was interesting. But unlike Australia, that guy and others in the UK live amongst the community, if you like, because the UK has different geography, it's more compact. But my sense of it from that was that he and others tend to not want to follow any rule of law.
I don't believe in the government. Often it's useful language, but often that comes from a grievance from the past, some running or issue that they might have had, but they've become more embedded into the view that so when it comes to any challenges from any legal challenges, authority challenges like that, they react in a certain way. Here you've had some cases. The geography is different. People can almost live off grigs. It's such a huge country and so in some ways they can end up doing that
without ever seeing anyone for months or years. There are cases in America where sovereign citizens have planned, planned, sort of what you describe lone actor attacks things like that. So it has happened in America, UK and here it appears to be a reaction to a challenge. So the authority challenges them and then they react violently, But these things evolve, so it is a concerning thing. They tend to be older men, you know, rather than young people generally.
As I say, the grievance is still there, but it's not necessarily all about lone acts. Where I describe this idea of going out in a blaze of glory, it might happen, yes, it might evolve, but often it's at this idea of a flashpoint where the challenge comes.
In that someone's poking them.
Yeah, but I mean, you know that this is unavoidable, but their reaction to it is extreme, isn't it. So in many ways, the processes are there, they're just reordered
a little bit. But when I talk about tip in points and flash points with loan actors, that's where the crossover kind of sits because it might be a challenge, but it might also be something that's happened to them in their life which has made them deteriorate and become more volatile, or it might be something that they're watching play out on TV, or do you see what I mean?
So much of it is still there, but I personally have not seen cases in great detail where they're sort of planning the sort of loan actor attack type thing, but doesn't mean it doesn't happen or can't evolve that way.
But it's obviously.
That's why I think it's worth categorizing it slightly differently.
No, that makes it so. I was interested when we spoke the other day, you clarified because I wasn't clear on the differences. But I think you've explained it well. You've got extensive experience in police, and you've got your academic background and your ongoing studies and your research. What do you think police, and I'm talking general as in police organizations need to focus on to minimize the risks of loan actors and mass mess attexts.
I think generally it's about understanding this. What I'm describing, I think is the best way it's about.
For me.
Over the years, I've sort of realized that you the best way to reach people because I've trained people in this, you know, in law enforcement and wider than that, is to tune people in. There's a lot of information goes around, you know, and particularly if you're a police officer, say you're a police constable, Yeah, you know, you've got a million things to worry about. What I'm interested in is
tuning people in enough they would see it. You know, they connect the dots because they've heard an input or a training and input something like that, or they've you know, and this is the same for the community. Really, is that if you see things, it's a bit like I was sort of trying. You know, let's take the example
of there was a big thing in London. We had a lot of bombings back, you know, twenty years ago or so, and there's always this kind of if you see a bag, unattended bag, you know, you get the announcements, don't use sometimes newspapers, and I'm sure you have that here as well. It's kind of tuned people into that. They'll go, there's a bag over there and there's no
one here, you know. And I remember riding the tube after the two thousand and five bombings in London, the seven seven, and that happened on one of the train. It was a day after, and you know, the people were shouting about that bag. There was nothing in it. Yeah, but it's kind of it's the being tuned in so that you see it. If you've never heard of this, or you've never thought about how it happens or what you might see you're not going to react. But what I'm trying to do here is to make some of
these warning signs a little bit like that bag. So if it doesn't matter if you're a police officer or you work for an agency or just a member of the community, because it's not as simple as it being a police problem. It stretches back. And so if you if you know someone or even if you don't, and you hear them talking about this sort of thing, it's
the equivalent of that unattended bag. Yeah, you pick up the phone, you go online, you call the police, or you call someone, or you tell somebody, maybe you tell friend, parents, family, whatever, you're online and someone's talking like this, That's the way I would see it because most like the bag, most of the time it's nothing. Yeah, but this is like a metaphorical right.
But I do understand what you're saying because we all became aware of that bag situation. Anytime you'd walk through an airport, the public transport, yeah, any locations and if you saw a bag that you are unattended looking round. So we did become aware of that.
And think about it.
Like I mean, these sorts of things I think about you know, obviously lots of people don't you know, it's probably not great, But nowadays a lot of these attacks are rudimentary, their knives and cars and things like that, Right, so you're not going to see necessarily as often maybe nowadays the bag, the barm and all this. Not saying
it won't happen or never happen. Yeah, what I'm trying to say is some of these warning signs, which are kind of behaviors, are your metaphorical bag, unattended bag, the combination of them, but particularly this idea of leakage behavior, particularly if someone actually says that they're intending to be violent because of some issue they've got grievance ideology, cause that's what I would try and connect to it. And I'd say exactly the same to a police officer as
I would to anyone. And because it's very difficult to spot this, it's not it's like a little bit like a needle in a haystack in the sense that you don't quite know who it's going to be.
Previous roles.
You know, I've personally had the responsibility for a number of people I've been concerned about, but that in a country can stretch two hundreds. You don't know which one is going to be. You can't just it's not minority report. You can't just guess, but you can you can sort of say someone's concerning. But what you do see is this kind of pathway or journey towards the attack. That's
when you start to see things that are recognizable. So I'm coming at it from a different a different way of kind of warning signs.
They're basically the only things we've got to go on.
This is it.
Yeah, and I said I said it before already. If you can stop one, you know, it's worthwhile. And ultimately, if someone says something that it didn't really mean, you know, you can clarify or it can be explained yet.
Or if someone said something just by the police turning up and speaking to them, that might check them bit it might Okay, Yeah, I've got to rain that in with the policing the way it is now, do you think we've got access to experts like yourself in policing. Do you think there's a role to have more psychological input into it, more understanding of these type of crimes or potential for these crimes, because it's very difficult police by nature black and white thinking. Yeah, I think that's
the way we look at it as an offense been committed. Now, have we got the right people looking at this in law enforcement? And I'm not talking New South Wales, I'm not talking to the UK just across the board. Do you think there's a need to have people with the type of expertise that you bring to the table involved in this type of proactive investigation?
Yeah, I mean largely speaking internationally, you do have psychologists or people with behavioral science backgrounds kind of involved in most countries. You know, it ranges of course for me, Like I've seen different countries do this in different ways. Some focus more in the community and some focus more on kind of detection and all that sort of stuff, so there's a different emphasis.
Where I've probably.
Been most impressed is in America, where they have quite an open threat assessment community, where they did this kind of runs through law enforcement, but also runs through into education, social work, and mental health, all those kinds of things.
They obviously have an issue there with school shooting, which.
Is considerable, and like most things in life, like there's that's a reaction to that, isn't it. Like enough people have got together and said, how do we stop this because it's happening and happening and it's kids, you know, it's children, and that's right. But what's impressive about it is just how far it stretches the awareness of it.
So rather than just seeing the aftermath again and again, you know, and having that view of it and that fear about it, they managed to kind of create almost like a structured movement there of training people to spot the signs within different agencies and things like that, and
they're very proactive about it. So I find that approach is very interesting because it kind of sits where I do with it, where I think I think awareness is the way to go, because you're not you know, say you but I mean, law enforcement aren't going to stop every single one of this one of these you know, it's not possible even with the best will in the world,
because it doesn't come from nowhere. But often the cases that you see aren't necessarily the priorities because they're not they're not showing that outwardly to law enforcement or other agencies, but they might be showing it online or within their family friend groups, so it's kind of it's not hidden, but it's it's you can't necessarily find every person with these extreme views and then follow them around every day
of the week. You know, it's not realistic. So this is an alternative way to look at it is to make people aware so that when they see it, they're tuned in enough. They don't have to understand it completely, but they're tuned in enough to call in.
You know.
That's the emphasis.
Fixated Person's units have been starting to evolve in law enforcement in this country. I see there's an expertise like the average police officer, and expertise because what you'r voutlined during our discussions here, there's a lot of depth to a lot of understanding. And I can confirm you're a psychologist because you never give a straight answer on the question, Sarah,
you'll talk, there's always an alternative. Just told me yes or no. But you need people with that sort of understanding the subtlety of it, because there can be little warning signs. I always I had concerns with any time that I came across someone that was stalking, and because I saw the after effects as a homicide detective, Stalking to me is a red red flag that's come from
experience and expertise that's built up over the years. We need place that fully understand the complexities of this and the subtleties of it, because it's not black and white, is it.
Yeah?
I mean interesting these stalking is also could be described as a grievance fueld based violence, you know, because often that's it just changes because it's normally or mostly about rejection and control and things like that. But there's a kind of a grievance and an anger behind a lot of that too. So most crimes, violent crimes can be
kind of viewed in that same way. But you're right, there is a need to understand it otherwise it just keeps happening and there's no kind of progression, you know, in terms of trying to reduce it. I think something that's always struck me about it is that it's viewed quite often as an unstoppable act, you know, random I think easters use it in the media a lot, random attack. It was a phrase really liked because I just don't
think that's the case. There is something about how people get into this position, and it's easy to think about good and evil as well, you know, and all this sort of stuff. But I'm not so interested necessarily in why they do it, but more so in terms of what that tells you that can help you prevent it.
Well, that's a big thing. That's what we've got a way for, isn't it. The prevention?
Yeah, I think, you know, prevention is a massive thing. The motivation is a bit like as a detective you works on murder cases, your motivation to get the justice for the family, to solve the case, to get that person locked up, all that sort of thing.
You know.
I've always had that too because I was a detective. This is the same thing. Really, it's just recognizing that you're trying to catch them before they do it and save an unknown family member. The worst thing about this sort of work, I suppose for personally or for people in this space, is that often you never know if they really were going to do it.
Yeah, do you see what I mean?
So you're not necessarily top you know, you sometimes it's gets so close you can sense that it really was going to happen, but sometimes.
You just you just never know.
No, But that shouldn't I don't think that should stop you detrying. I mean, it's it is what it is.
You know, hey, guys, it's Gary Jubilan here. Want to get more out of I Catch Killers, then you should head over to our new video feed on Spotify where you can watch every episode of I Catch Killers. Just search for I Catch Killers video in your Spotify app and start watching today. It's a difficult part of law enforcement. I think there's a lot of pressure there homicide, and
people identify homicide as pressure. And yes, there is pressure when you're trying to catch find the person that's murdered someone. But this I would have sleepless nights if things were coming across my tables as soon your investigator, this person might be about to do this. Do we move on this? Do we not move on that? There's a lot of pressure trying to prevent crime rather than solving crime. I think there's an added pressure to preventing the crime.
Yeah, and it's easy for me now to sort of talk about this from a point of view of, you know, generally, how do we prevent it? But certainly my career, like I've had, responsibility is probably the right word for people that might do this, and that pressure is real. Yeah, I mean it's you talk about sleepless nights, but you. You know, often you'd wake up and the news had come on and someone's carried out an attack, and the first thing you think, which is a shame, but is that my person?
You know? You think? Do you see what I mean so exactly?
And I think I think detectives, You know, this isn't just in what I've done, but detectives generally do hold a lot of responsibility and wait on their should you know, I think it shouldn't be underestimated that you know generally what they have to do. You carry on with your job and you're professional, but you still have to carry in the back of your head the potential risk that might happen because you have or haven't done something, you know.
I think it was Dave gall that I had on the head on the show here, and he was a friend through worked in homicide with him in different parts, but he ended up specializing in counter terrorism and he would wake up, he said that he'd wake up each morning and when it wasn't Lloyd's story or there wasn't something that happened, he'd think that was a good night.
Yeah.
It's a strange feeling, yeah, and it is. I guess it's perfectly natural given what you're doing. I think sometimes people with detectives, they focus on the fact that they're there to investigate. But during an investigation, sometimes your suspect or you're the victim. Anything can happen. It's so unpredictable and things happen all the time. Yeah, and you sort of you balance all that risk, don't you.
And I don't think if you invested in it, I don't think you feel fully appreciate the pressure until you step away from it. Yeah, you carry it and you think that's a norm, and then you step away from it. And what I'm not responsible for what happened overnight in this state.
Yeah, I think I said to you offline. And so I moved it to Australia. My partner's from Australia, so we moved to Australia. We moved to like a initially we moved to like a beach town and I couldn't work in the first few months. So yeah, I was gone from being in the police to suddenly be in its most beautiful place like paradise, just you know, wandering around just thinking okay. And what was really strange was struggling slightly to actually relax because I'm so used to
the pace of what i was doing before. But also just as you touch on there, so many things came back to me at that point I hadn't thought about for years because i'd left.
It's like your.
Brains go, okay, now you can think about these things again. See, you know, some good, some bad, but just a lot. It was a lot to kind of think about, you know.
Yeah, I process or I.
Had a homicide detected from the UK here and he was talking about cases, and he said, the strange thing is now, when I was working the cases, I didn't feel the emotion attached. But now I've stepped away and I start talking about these cases and I'm overwhelmed with emotion from it. And then I suppose that's, yeah, just your way of coping when you're in the in the.
I think, I think it's sort of you put a shield up daily, don't you sort of thing, and you don't. It's busy, you don't have time to really think about it. So something major might happen in one one shift or day and you go home and you think, wow, you know, but then you're back in the first thing the next day again there's something worse happens or more, you know, and so you never really get a moment to really
take it in. So yeah, it's been interesting now because and I think, you know, as I say, feel lucky in a sense. But some people it's tough, you know.
Yeah.
Now, I've seen colleagues that have hit the wall for a variety of reasons, and it's horrible to see them go from the people you know to what, Yeah, the pain and the emotions that they carry. But yeah, a lot of people find their way out of it too, which is always good to see. And that's I hope your expertise has been I was going to say exploited probably not the right word, but utilized over here. Is this stuff that you're still doing and yeah.
Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
So I'm able to educate people and train people on this subject. So I'm still able to do that and it's a really important thing for me too.
So it's lovely to.
Be able to share the expertise, you know, because it's the thing about being in the police, of being a detective, is that sense of meaning meaning for work, right, Yeah, So I'm still able to do some of that, so that's great.
Yeah, So.
With your expertise just be aim. If it's not not utilized such a broad depth of experience, thank you we have. I'm not suggesting you sign up and start policing again and we put you back in the uniform for two years. But over here, I'm not sure if it's the same in the UK. We're really struggling to attract people to policing. The recruiting is very difficult pretty much across the board in the Australia. Is it the same over in the UK from what you understand, yeah, it is.
Yeah, I don't know the exact figures, but over time it's become more difficult. And also when I was well, I noticed a little bit too, is that a lot of uniform officers, you know, guys in the uniform stopped wanting to be detectives. And this is a kind of combination of things from like austerity cuts and numbers of
officers and things like that. But I think what uniform officers worked out, or some of them, was that your shift would end and then a new kind of shift would come in behind you twenty four to seven, so you'd go home roughly on time unless there was a major Whereas detectives seem to just sort of carry on regardless. And yeah, see many many people sleep under their desks, and you know, I mean as a boss, you know, as in a you know, a detective. I used to
have to tell people to go home. Sometimes I'd walk in. I couldn't work out if they've been at home or not.
I always when the cloner would start cleaning at two o'clock and the.
Yeah that nise. Yeah.
I tried really hard as I became more senior to set an example and make sure I went home because it never stops. You could easily work twenty four to seven. But I think I think that puts people off because it's hard to have any life balance, isn't it when it's like that. And part of the problem is, I think you can do that when you're young, but if you have a family, a you're older, and you've got
other commitments, it's very difficult. And so I think in terms of trying to recruit and things like that, that you know, it feels like that's one of the things you need to focus on a little bit more, is to make it more palatable. But as you would, well know, you're there at sort of I don't know ten o'clock at night. You've almost packed your bag to go home, haven't you, And then the phone rooms and then there's the biggest job of your life and you're there twelve
hours later. Still, this is the truth of it. I laugh with friends who've done it. That's bad because it's horrendous hours, but it's also there was also an element of it which was just so exciting because anything can happen, you know, so it's also something that's good fun as well, you know, the job working in those sorts of situations.
Yeah, I think that's a pretty balanced view that you give of placing. Like I asked people, a lot of people that have been through long careers and would they do it all over again? And yeah, invariably it's yes. A couple of people said no, no way. It just depends. But I suppose the pressure that the work there is a reward too, and that that's what I And yeah, it does impact on your private life most definitely, and impact on lots of things, but there is a reward.
And I think, and you're the psychologist, so you should probably add to this. Everyone wants to be a detective. You even wanted to be a detective as a psychologist. Yeah, I think we've just got an inquiry in mind. And that's why true crime or crime is so fascinating for people, because everyone wants to solve the crime.
Yeah.
Look, I mean it's the best job in the world. Absolutely, Yeah, you can't deny it.
It's not. I sort of laugh, you know.
I talked at the start about Sherlock Holmes and stuff, you know, and all these detective characters in fiction they have like problems, don't they pressure and all that, And I think I looked at it and thought I used to love all that. When you do it, you realize, well, they've only got one crime to solve, you know, They've they've got so much time compared to what an average detective would have. I used to run thirty crimes at
a time, you know. And so it's kind of interesting how how it's played or played out, isn't it.
But yeah, so it is a great job.
So when I was up at the beach wondering what to do, I started writing down kind of my my stories and stuff, because it it's always that there's it's such a the whole the whole thing is often built on kind of experience in its stories. And it's a fascinating job to do. Yeah, if anyone wants to do it, then go for it. It's a brilliant job.
Yeah.
Well, if you start talking about the book, you've got one customer here. I'll definitely buy.
Buy your book.
I think that that would that would be fascinating. Then that from from my own experience writing after I left the place, it was cathartic in a way, and the understanding what you did because you walk away from it and go what was that all about? And to break it down and you get it get and it made you realize the intensity of some of the things that you've been.
For it And I think, you know, I described myself like you. I think you called me it. But it's fair like a geeky young geek ormst you know. It's like if you have a comfort zone, it just pushes you out of that. Yeah, you know, and you've come out at the other side a different person, really, you know, incredible journey.
Yeah. Yeah, well that's probably the advice I give to people if they're talking about police, I say, I enjoyed it. But the thing that you know that if you join the police and have a career in policing. That's going to change you as a person now if you want to pay that price or it might change it for the better, I don't know, but it will change you. And I think that's the most honest, genuine.
Advice that's absolutely true.
Yeah, to give people inquiring, well, and thank you so much for your time. Fascinating. I'm not going to say I'm not going to get you back on because I could delve in a lot further into your fascinating career, but also for your insights into what is now what I consider very concerning in that the loan actors and mass killings. It's something that we've all got to try
and try and prevent. And as you highlighted today, it's not just from a policing PERSPECTI that Zebran's got to invest in this to make sure it doesn't happen.
Absolutely.
Yeah, it's a good message. So yeah, thanks for having me on.
Cheers